Irish Member of Parliament Foresaw The Truth: "We Are Screwed As A Country Because Of The Wrongdoing Of Others"

Tyler Durden's picture

A year ago Irish Green Party politician Paul Nicholas Gogarty told Irish Labor Party TD "With all due respect, in the most unparliamentary language; Fuck you, Deputy Stagg, fuck you!... We Are Screwed As A Country Because Of The Wrongdoing Of Others." It took a year for Gogarty to be proven correct. Now that the "others" have been identified as virtually every UK and German bank, not to mention every insolvent financial institution in the world, and of course, the Fed's banking buddies, one wonders: just how will Ireland respond? Also, when will America finally see one of its pathetic excuses for representatives finally do the right thing and actually speak the truth. InTrade over/under: never. 

h/t Karl Denninger

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trav7777's picture

Screwed bitchez...with an irish accent

caconhma's picture

These welfare politicians and banking ruling elite have betrayed the people and their country. These corrupt Irish bastards had to resign and conduct the country referendum.

Ireland is not a single guilty party in this situation. It is always both sides responsible for any failed relationship. Consequently, greedy Germans and British banks who irresponsibly provided loans to borrowers incapable of or unwilling to pay their debts must also take responsibilities for their actions.

Hard-working Irish people must force their banks to take full responsibility for their actions. If these banks cannot pay, they must go bankrupt with their leaders going to jail.

Irish politicians betrayed their people and must be treated as traitors without any mercy.

trav7777's picture

the banks and bankers have a vested interest in running ponzis.

This is precisely WHY they lent to dead people and NINJAs.  Nobody gave a fuck because it was all just toxic shit for the bank to hustle, package, and sell.

Inflation/deflation is an old racket.  There are 200+ year old quotes about it

chrisina's picture

So Ireland is screwed and it's all the fault of "others". Others being foreign banks of course. No Irish?

Ireland has foreign liabilities of Euros 2.65 trillion and foreign assets of Euros 2.5 trillion. That's about 15 times the Irish GDP. World record!

And why is that? Because Ireland has the lowest corporate tax rate in Europe : if a British or German bank wanted to invest in Spain, it's do it via its Irish subsidiary, like this it paid less taxes. Good for the British or German bank, Good for the Irish tax payer who can afford to pay less taxes, Bad for the British or German tax payer.

When real estate assets all over Europe were bubbling up, Ireland reaped immense profits from being one of the major hubs of this parasitic spiderweb that are international financial cartels. Now that real estate assets all over Europe are dwindling down Ireland is set to lose massive amounts. But of course this is all the fault of "others". It's "others" who forced Ireland to adopt the lowest corporate tax rate in Europe. It's "others" who decided for the Irish that they should become this parasitic spiderweb's hub.


I'm all for blaming German and British banks, but let's not forget that the Irish, and especially their corrupt politicians must share a big chunk of this blame. The Irish didn't complain during the bonanza years, they didn't say, let's resist this easy money and the temptation of fake prosperity. They actually facilitated it. And now of course, it's all everyone else's fault.


szjon's picture

We keep hearing about these 'good' years here in Ireland, we keep being told that we had it good and now it is time to pay for it.


Me and my family seem to have missed that, we just saved and worked and worked and saved and now we have to pay for it.


Some of us didn't buy ridiculous housing, new cars every year and 3 foreign holidays. One of the big eye openers for me was seeing a civil servant on the news complaining he couldn't make ends meet on €55000 a year.


When you consider my wife and I don't make that between us and have 3 kids and plenty savings then it gives you an indication of what life has been like here for the past few years. Yes, others are to blame for this mess, (from where I am standing) but there are a lot of folks here in Ireland who would tell you otherwise.


chrisina's picture

Of course, you're absolutely right, not everyone is to blame in Ireland. There are many many Irish families who lived a responsible life and refrained form participating in this bubblicious nonsense and taking advantage of this easy money.


All I'm saying is that it's a bit easy to blame everything on the "others" (foreign bankers) when there are also many in the Irish elite  (corporocracy and especially Irish politicians) who are to blame, who thought they could get wealthy easily by selling their souls to the devil (ie trying to attract foreign capital at all cost by lowering the corporate tax rate to the lowest in Europe).


I think it's completely unfair that those who lived a responsible frugal life and saved for a rainy day are going to get fucked by those who accumulated mountains of debt. Because that will be the consequence when Ireland finally defaults, debts are reset to zero, savers ruined, debtors free. Why do so many commentators here seem to think this will be a just "solution" to Ireland's problems?

terranstyler's picture

I think you can generalize your case: Screw or get screwed.

Be it stupidity or malevolence, these guys are the majority and Democracy remains metaphorically the decision of three wolves and one sheep about what to have for lunch.

Paradoxically, those being honest and farsighted will sooner or later have to face the consequences of their responsible behaviour!

But the irony of it all is: The more responsible you behave, the longer the scam will continue; much in the same way you can bring the system down by becoming a part of it. So adapt: Buy PM on credit / margin and if it works out, you're rich; if not default. 

ReeferMac's picture

Buy PM on credit / margin and if it works out, you're rich; if not default.

Ahh... The old PIMCO shuffle. I remember seeing that somewhere's before?

I agree that unfortunately, responsible persons will not be rewarded for their behaviour, while those that partook in the recklessness, will be absolved of all commitments. It's just a repetition of what's been going on in big business for years. GM ran their company into the ground, BAILOUT! How many banks received bailout money due to poor management?Where's my check for screwing up my checkbook?

Without debating the merits or purposes, we are fighting nature on a fundamental level, and we are going to lose. You can't beat Mother Nature. She's got some pretty simple rules, but you HAVE to follow them. Darwin was the first to put them to paper, but we all know them pretty well. When the Water buffalo makes a poor decision and gets a drink at the watering hole WITHOUT looking for the Alligator first, he gets eaten by the alligator. The rest of the herd says "Did you see what happened to Liam?", and moves along. When a corporation makes poor decisions, they are eaten up by their competition for pennies on the dollar. The rest of the herd says "Did you see what happened to Lehman?", and moves along. Executives are supposed to go broke and be shunned from ever working in the industry again ("So, your last job was running who into the ground for the shareholders?"), workers lose their jobs, and the bigger company makes oodles of money off the other company's fuck-ups. Pretty simple, really, just like a watering hole.

Why are so many trying to fight mother nature? Alligator's gotta eat too....

Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

Darwin was the first to put them to paper...

Oh, great.  Another "science" guy.

And I suppose the Earth is over 6000 years old, too. 

Whatever. I ain't no monkey, so you can take your Darwin crap and go back to Huffington.  

Here me now - May the spirit of our Father Lord Jesus impart your soul with heavenly wisdom and guidance to defeat the devil's workshop that has put monkey-thoughts in your mind.  Prepare for Revelation!  All those in agreement, say AMEN!

Don't get me preachin'.  I can preach like no buddy's business. Lord have mercy!   

Conservatives/Bible/Republicans/Palin  2012

terranstyler's picture


Right now we have a buffalo shaman that resurrects the eaten by draining life from the non-eaten. So drink whenever you want, as long as the shaman is alive.

Back to reality: The only thing to stop this madness is default default default. Enjoy the free money, spend it wisely and then default. It's your money anyway that you steal from the banks, so who cares?

El Hosel's picture

  "The blame is on others".   For all "others" who have been allowed to screw and rig the "system", its too late for blame... and apparently it is too early for any form of justice.

skipjack's picture

There is no reason for the Irish public to bail out the banks.  That's the essential point.  Saying that Irish people participated is just an abdication of responsiblity of those who were the wrong-doers, the banks and the politicians who enabled them.


If you are going to lend money to people who can't repay you, then YOU take the loss and don't force your neighbors to fork it over.

chrisina's picture

Sure I take the loss. But I also take the colateral.


Or are you suggesting that mortgages were contracted with no form of colateral? That if I can't pay back the mortgage, no problem, I get to keep my house. That if a real estate developper can't pay back his loan to the bank, no problem, he gets to keep the real estate developement and gets to sell it later at 50 cents on the dollar and it's all profit for him?



papaswamp's picture

I think when you have to get bailed out by another country, you are indeed screwed. This deal went through on a Sunday night...Monday in Ireland will be very interesting.

HarryWanger's picture

Doubtful that anything will happen. A few of the "informed/educated" will grumble and stomp their feet. For everyone else, it'll be a pub topic after work.

Tortfeasor's picture

And that will last how long?  Forever?  A week?  Seven years?

We are laying the groundwork for a new dark ages here and now.  Short term stock market gains come at the price of long term destruction of wealth and, eventually, societal demise for many countries.

TPTB are happy for you to make a few coins off of trading their stocks...they'll take it back from you ten fold through inflation, taxation and wealth destruction.

HarryWanger's picture

It can go on for decades really. At some point it ends in tears but we're nowhere close to that happening. As long as they can keep this going, and we're just in the early innings here, market will rise, people will get giddy and there will be a new bubble creating more jobs. Always works that way.

SteveNYC's picture

"Always works that way"


Harry, you need a lesson in impermanence.

HarryWanger's picture

All I'm saying is according to the majority here by this time we were all going to be living in bunkers eating Glen Beck sponsored dried foods and wearing three firearms everywhere.

Interesting. Didn't see that at all at the mall today. Saw lots of smiling faces buying shit. Same as always. We're decades and multiple bubbles away from any "implosion". Sorry, just the way it works.

Bob Sponge's picture

Does the USA's high debt/GDP ratio cause you any alarm at all?

Aristarchan's picture

I think you may be right...I was out at the local gun emporium a few days ago to buy a case of shotgun shells, and hell, people were in there buying ammo and handguns like crazy. Of course, just by looking at that crowd, most of them couldn't hit the inside of a room if they were standing in it. Pseudo survivalists and conspiracy theorists mostly....not serious people.

LowProfile's picture

Your ignorance of the current economic situation in the US is eclipsed only by that of your ignorance on the history and nature of the Irish people.

In case you didn't get that, your a perfect dumb fuck.

Chito Campo's picture

Harry, your comments are being roundly rejected through the junk button.  It's not a matter of people not understanding you -- people see what they want to see.  In the case of a majority of ZHers, predicting the econolypse and thoroughly convincing themselves it is imminent gives them the feeling they have the power to understand the world around them.  Perhaps more significantly, they feel they are capable of seeing things average people cannot.  If you disagree, then it's because of your inferior intellect and, in that way, it's a self-reinforcing delusion.

Bob Sponge's picture

I think you are seeing what you want to see.

ReeferMac's picture

+100! Indeed, I got up early today to make sure the Sun was going to rise like yesterday (I heard Ireland took the money, so I wasn't sure!)

I think a dramatic and powerful change would be very refreshing, but so long as Dancing With the Stars is on, you haven't a chance (more Soma please)!

Let me show my power through the internet by clicking a button and showing YOU how silly you are, trying to argue intelligently against a mass of hysterical myopic trolls from the lunatict fringe! I'll 'junk' you, you ignorant bastard.


People will always see what they want to see. It's "easier" to go through life w/o complications and confrontations. That's what makes drug addicts, addicts! It's easier to take another hit than go on living Sober! So you spend your days hanging around with other potheads, and before you know it, it seems perfectly believeable that everyone gets high (gubermint statistics lie man, there's way more smokers out there man...), and those tin-foil-hat types are starting to make some real sense. Of course they do, if that's all you listen to, or read, or choose to believe! Next up on ZH, logical arguments in support of Religion (you pick, they're all the same, really)!!

(shakes head, sighs).....

Al Gorerhythm's picture

Change your handle to Frog Soup. 

AnAnonymous's picture

Nice one.

Most of Irish are also plentifully aware they have got a good deal. Their protest is a rhetorical one, just not to overjoy.

SWRichmond's picture

Bord Gáis and the Electricity Supply Board, Ireland's motorways, CIE, the national oil reserves, our stake in Aer Lingus as well as the best parts of the Dublin banks and the whole of the national pension fund are likely to be pledged as security in return for the tens of billions of euro in loans the government will receive from the IMF, the European Community and the European Central Bank.

Sean7k's picture

That is too high a price to pay to bail out irresponsible bankers. I hope the people shoot every member of the ruling party.

Rome is burining's picture

Silly boy - they have no guns over there.  Only in America - land of the armed!  And when we fall, the only people who will have guns will be big brother!

trav7777's picture

Harry Wanger says that this is no problem and everyone will just shrug and kiss the Blarney Stone and life goes on.

They have pledged the mfing ROADS underneath the Irish motorist and the national pension fund.

How does this NOT end up like Argentina, where the foreign banks that lent capital that did not exist will end up owning the land underneath their feet?

This is EXACTLY what Jefferson meant in that famous letter to the Treasury Secretary in 1802.  People act like we are in a new world or some kind of NEW economy where we simply HAVE to have a central bank and debtmoney...the reality is that this banking scam is hundreds of years old.  It is NOT new in any way.

Bolweevil's picture

Lending capital that didn't exist. That part still blows me away. Some people (me) are so naive.

snowball777's picture

Man you do not know the Irish at all; that BS logic might fly with American sheeple, but these folk are not shy about use of force to express themselves.

HarryWanger's picture

They express themselves with force over being a Catholic or Protestant. There will be no "use of force" for a problem most of the population doesn't understand or really care about.

Big Red's picture

"Bord Gáis and the Electricity Supply Board, Ireland's motorways, CIE, the national oil reserves, our stake in Aer Lingus as well as the best parts of the Dublin banks and the whole of the national pension fund are likely to be pledged as security in return for the tens of billions of euro in loans the government will receive from the IMF, the European Community and the European Central Bank."

"The talks were focusing on ways of limiting the amount of the private banking debts that a generation of Irish citizens will be made to pay for."

So, the Irish citizenry "won't understand" nor "really care", eh?

What's so hard to understand?

BTW, since the IMF is involved, that's means dollars that ultimately come out of the US citizenry's pocket will be more-or-less going into private bankers' pockets (AGAIN!), doesn't it? I'm having a hard time trying to understand, see...

Lastly, it seems that many of our fine USA Corporations have just been giving the "OK sign" that corporate tax rates won't have to go up, how wonderful for those bastards.

trav7777's picture

GFD why can't people see what's happening?

the big countries are using their banks JUST LIKE THE BOE DID for CENTURIES, as a tool of EMPIRE, to go in and lend into ponzis of their own creation, and then via deflation, literally deprive the people of their property.

They are going to RENT Ireland to the Irish...this is the great famine era all over again. 

Jesus Christ, am I ALONE in seeing this?  The capital lent DID NOT EXIST and the debt COULD NOT ever be repaid!  This is fucking precisely WHY USURY has been ILLEGAL for MOST of the last 2000 years!  It's why even the usury clan had a regular jubilee!

The notion that ANYONE has any obligation to repay bullshit capital conjured from thin air is absurd.

OldTrooper's picture

BLASPHEMER!  How dare you say that the Fed Ponzi Certificates carefully spun by master alchemist Greenspan and his young apprentice Bernank, of only the very finest electrons mind you - building blocks of the very universe, do not exist!

Peace is the x-axis's picture

"...of the very finest electrons mind you - building blocks of the very universe, do not exist!"

Irony alert.

It's all just "waves".



Rusty Shorts's picture

"It's all just "waves"."


Hmm, that jogs the memory. When I was a young man, I went through a week or so of profound clarity, an "epiphany" or "vision" came to my conscience. I could see that everything was waves, my minds eye could see how things really were. My buddy, who was a border line genius, thought that I had lost my marbles when I began explaining the thoughts that were entering my mind, so, I never mentioned it again...till now.

i-dog's picture

Each of us is a wave. We're not a fixed entity.

Molecules are being added to us all the time, while others are being shed. Not unlike a sand dune ... where grains of sand are added by the wind on one side, while others are being blow off the other side. In this way, the dune appears to "move" as a single entity across the desert.

Interesting concept.

Rusty Shorts's picture



"The Sun is 333,000 times as massive as Earth is. Despite its large mass, the Sun has a lower density, or mass per unit volume, than Earth. The Sun's average density is only 1.409 g/cu cm (1.188 oz/cu in), which is a quarter of the average density of Earth."

 - see any problems with this?



Peace is the x-axis's picture

"They are going to RENT Ireland to the Irish... am I ALONE in seeing this?"

No, you're not alone Trav. You're 100% correct. As per my lengthy post in an earlier thread re Ireland -

"To-day I may tell you that our goal is now only a few steps off. There remains a small space to cross and the whole long path we have trodden is ready now to close its cycle of the Symbolic Snake, by which we symbolize our people. When this ring closes, all the States of Europe will be locked in its coil as in a powerful vice...


We shall soon begin to establish huge monopolies, reservoirs of colossal riches, upon which even large fortunes... will depend to such an extent that they will go to the bottom together with the credit of the States on the day after the political smash...


It is essential therefore for us at whatever cost to deprive them of their land. This object will be best attained by increasing the burdens upon landed property - in loading lands with debts...


What we want is that industry should drain off from the land both labor and capital and by means of speculation transfer into our hands all the money of the world, and thereby throw all the GOYIM into the ranks of the proletariat. Then the GOYIM will bow down before us, if for no other reason but to get the right to exist...


Economic crises have been produced by us ... by no other means than the withdrawal of money from circulation. Huge capitals have stagnated, withdrawing money from States, which were constantly obliged to apply to those same stagnant capitals for loans. These loans burdened the finances of the State with the payment of interest and made them the bond slaves of these capitals ... The concentration of industry in the hands of capitalists out of the hands of small masters has drained away all the juices of the peoples and with them also the States..."


chrisina's picture


The notion that ANYONE has any obligation to repay bullshit capital conjured from thin air is absurd.

So if I understand you well, one gets to buy a house from a 100% mortgage (capital conjured from thin air) and even better get to buy a car, swimming pool , granite counter top etc.. .from remortgaging the house at a higher value (more capital from thin air) and when the whole thing goes bust, get to keep the house, swimming pool, car, granite counter top, etc... and one is free from any obligation to repay anything?

hmmm too bad I didn't get to participate in that sweet deal. Silly me.

Are you suggesting that it's only fair that debtors get free from repaying anything, keep the stuff they bought entirely at credit and those who saved for a rainy day (like me) get ruined?

BurningFuld's picture

The money was loaned with full knowledge it could never be paid back. Meaning there were no rules regarding the lending of money. This is actually fine with me. BUT, if there are no rules on lending there should be no rules on paying it back either.   That would probably slow the lending down a bit wouldn't you think??

chrisina's picture

What do you mean with "full knowledge it could never be paid back"? You mean banks actually knew when they granted those mortgages that they would all default? And the families who signed those mortgages actually knew they wouldn't be able to pay them back. They all knew that house prices would eventually plummet and that they would all lose their jobs. They all did that with actual prior knowledge of the future, that they would NEVER be able to pay back those loans but despite this all took the decision to do so?


There are no rules on lending and no rules on paying back loans? Which planet do you live on?

The basic rule of lending has always been the same: you sign a mortgage against a house as collateral. If you can't pay back the mortgage, the creditor gets to repossess the collateral. Are you saying that it's not valid any longer?


Gee, if only I had known, I should have signed this mortgage for this five million dollar home in Beverley Hills. I knew I couldn't pay it back. The bank also knew. But it doesn't matter, the bank would have still given me the money, I wouldn't have paid back anything, and because "there are no rules", I would have gotten to keep the house.


Silly me, why didn't I think about it?


Let me correct your alternate version of reality with what actually happened :

Instead of 

"the money was loaned with full knowledge that it would never get paid back"

correct with

"the money was loaned with full knowledge that if it could not get paid back the creditor would reposess the collateral".

AnAnonymous's picture

Not as simple as that.

The possibility to repeat over and over again the same consumption act (one possible definition of debt) is thinning out.

Quite a lot of people are aware of this fact and are busy with trying to consume the most possible.

Banks definitively loan knowing the issue. Put straightforwardly and oversimplisticly, when one borrows to build a house, sometimes, in a near future, the possibility to build a second similar house must exist.

This is the primary condition to trigger a debt procedure.

If that possibility does not exist, the house is automatically repossessed as the lender can not acquire a similar house for himself and the borrower is unable to provide the resources needed to build that second house.

In a close universe, where there is just enough to build one house, lending to someone for the house to be built makes no sense. Either the guy who owns the resources to build the house (and he is supposed to own them to lend them) is able to build it for himself or he does not build it. 

This is of course worsens when you add interest in the making.

In a very smithian economics approach, some people in the US and elsewhere (including Ireland) were only used as vectors of demand to increase the consumption level.

People who are able to transfer the resources to build houses would generate a much lesser demand than if they offer other people to build the houses for them.

If a guy owns enough to build 10 millions houses, he is unlikely to generate enough to build those 10.

If he sells the project to 10 million people, he knows that the houses will get built. And if there is not enough resources to built the 10 million more needed to fill the gap of debt, the 10 million houses are automatically repossessed.


Defaulting can be a progressive process. We are already defaulting on the debt as some Irish people have discovered.

jaiball's picture

From what I heard there was quite a mad rush to give a mortgage to anyone who could sign their name, as they could not get enough of them to throw into the MBS's. The whole deal with the liar loans, NINJAs etc it was evident that there was massive fraud in giving alot of people who shouldn't have qualified for loans a loan. Now whose fault is that? Are we saying that the average joe with very little knowledge of how these funky mortgages worked(regular people have lives where they don't have much time to read up on this sort of stuff, and usually trust people who say they are experts). Are they as culpable as the moneychangers would duped them into a loan they KNEW wasn't going to be paid back? Who's the one who forged the paperwork?

beaufou's picture

If this is what you truly believe, I suggest you post a real photo of yourself with your address. So you can show the Irish what a true man looks like and where to find him.

Who needs kneecaps anyhow.