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An Irrevocable Right to Benefits?
Lisa Fleisher of the WSJ reports, New Jersey Pension Gap Grows:
New
Jersey's pension gap grew to $53.9 billion in the last fiscal year, up
from $45.8 billion, thanks to market losses and a lack of state
funding, according to figures released Thursday by the state.
The
looming pension burden, largely ignored by the state for the past
decade, has ballooned into a nearly unmanageable problem that will push
state and local finances into a corner in coming years, dropping large
bills in the laps of already strained taxpayers.
Gov. Chris
Christie's administration said the gap, which reflected the state's
investment positions as of June 30, highlighted the need for proposed
cuts to current public workers' pensions.
The new calculations
mean the state has 62% of the money it needs to pay retirement benefits
promised to roughly 720,000 state and local workers over the next
decade, down from 66% a year earlier. But the state is using an annual
8.25% rate of return, which critics say masks the problem by being
overly optimistic
"As all states,
they're getting it wrong," said Eileen Norcross, a George Mason
University researcher who has studied New Jersey's budget and pensions.
Using a 3.5% rate of return, she had estimated the previous liability
at $173 billion.
For most of the past decade, New Jersey
politicians from both parties have skipped required payments to the
pension fund while giving increases in benefits to workers. Faced with a
tight budget, Mr. Christie skipped a $3.1 billion payment this year,
which experts said all but guaranteed a higher gap next year.
Mr.
Christie, a Republican, wants to reverse a 9% pension bump workers
received in 2001 under a Republican administration. A spokesman for
Senate President Stephen Sweeney said he would work on changes that
would "ensure workers who have been promised a pension get one," adding
the governor needed to fund the pensions.
Unions
argue their members have an irrevocable right to benefits they have
earned, and the governor has said he will meet the unions in court.
Public workers pay into their pensions at various rates—8.5% of salary
for police officers and firefighters; 5.5% for teachers, state and
municipal workers; and 3% for most judges.
"Once again, the
Christie administration wants to make middle-class retirees pay the
price for the disastrous consequences of reckless speculation and
financial malfeasance on Wall Street, and for the legislature's
continuing failure to fund the pension," said Bob Master, political
director for the New York-area Communications Workers of America.
Mr.
Christie in March signed a slew of pension and benefits changes pushed
by Democrats but said they didn't go far enough. In September, Mr.
Christie unveiled further proposals targeting current workers,
including raising the retirement age to 65, requiring all workers to
contribute 8.5% of their salaries to pensions, and eliminating
cost-of-living increases.
In a statement, state Treasurer Andrew
Sidamon-Eristoff said Thursday, "Unchecked, the cost of this
impossible burden will fall not just on the taxpayers of today, but on
future generations of New Jerseyans."
Average annual pensions
for new retirees as of July 2009 were roughly $39,500 for state
workers, $46,400 for teachers, $73,500 for police officers and
firefighters, and $105,600 for judges.
So who
is right, unions or the Christie administration? At this point, it
doesn't matter. Yes, Wall Street's elite made off like bandits,
squeezing the middle class once again. But Governor Christie, who spoke
with 60 Minutes this past Sunday,
is right when he says public sector workers and retirees will get
little sympathy from private sector workers who saw their 401K plans
implode in 2008. Moreover, with state budgets deep in the red, there is
no money left to pay for public works projects, let alone generous
public pension benefits. All stakeholders need to make concessions or
risk deeper cuts down the road.
If I were the unions, I would
use this as an opportunity to push for better governance at the large state public plans. And by better governance, I mean make sure that
alignment of interests are there. As for state governments, they have
little choice but to raise the retirement age, cut benefits, and
partially or fully remove inflation protection on public sector
pensions. They should also revise their rosy investment assumptions for
state plans.
This may seem unfair and unreasonable to public
sector workers, but to quote a strategist who I spoke with yesterday,
"deleveraging sucks". You can't have pensions apartheid between the
private and public sector. And there are no "irrevocable rights to
benefits". Just look at the mess Greece and Ireland are in right now.
When the money runs out, cuts are guaranteed.
That's one of the reasons why I was disappointed with the meetings at Kananaskis.
A lot of people are looking at politicians with gold plated pensions
asking themselves why couldn't they expand CPP and provide Canadians
with a more secure retirement? I know, the critics will holler:
"it's just another payroll tax". They're wrong and shortsighted and
I'm embarrassed to say this is the best Canada could come up with --
another giveaway to banks and insurance companies. And who's going to
end up bailing out PRPPs when they flop? Who else but Canadian
taxpayers!
There was a time when Canada led the way in terms
of health, education and social economic policy. Our leaders need to
rethink expanding CPP. If you do it right, you'll bolster the private
and public sector. But if you do it wrong, or introduce half-baked
measures, you're better off not doing anything at all. I'm serious, I'd
rather see no change than reforms that are doomed to fail.
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Hm...Either that or they become creative productive self acualized egoist full of vigor and the willingness to work hard to better themselves with the moral virtues that all individual industrious free men strive.
They rely on their armed thug brethren to tow-the-line until they too reach the carrot.
Police Benevolent Associations v. sheep that keep voting for DemoRAT & GOPher oligarchies?
lol
If you used to watch the old Saturday Night Live, you may remember Dan Akroyd in the news and his famous line, "Jane, you ignorant slut." Borrowing from Dan, allow me to say, Coldfire, you ignorant slut.
What you fail to grasp is that people who EXPECT a government pension expect it based upon THE BARGAIN THEY STRUCK WITH THE GOVERNMENT 30 YEARS PRIOR. They took less money, they accepted no opportunity for the massive payday, they did not toil in glamorous corner offices on the 89th floor, they did not belong to the Country Club, they did not take around-the-world vacations--they simply looked at the deal on the table--take less pay now, fewer perks now, zero opportunity for the big payday, in exchange for a lifetime pension of a certain amount later. THEY ARE TRULY JUST ABOUT THE ONLY PEOPLE IN AMERICA ENTITLED TO THEIR government benefits. They do not expect their pensions based upon "government profligacy." They EARNED their pensions. Their pensions were part of the DEAL they made with the government (THAT IS, WITH THE TAXPAYER) 30 years ago.
Your silly attitude is the sorriest example of class warfare, and the idiots who are promoting it are doing so for their own nefarious political and financial purposes. Don't blame the man or woman who worked his or her ass off for 30 years fighting your community's fires, or chasing your community's drug dealers, or defending your nation from its enemies. Save your vitriol and cynicism for the whores on Wall Street and at the highest levels of government--THEY are the ones who have created this mess. Not John Doe the fireman, or cop, or soldier.
But the same argument, by analogy, applies to all those people who put money into Social Security. How does that square with a means test, or a cut in benefits.
Or the workers who put money into corporate 401K's or other pension benefits which evaporate when the company files chapter 11 or is bought out in a merger/acquisition deal.
It's all the same. I wouldn't mind them getting their money, it's just that's unrealistic and won't happen.
Yes. You are correct, but only about Social Security! I put a hell of lot of money into Social Security and likely will never see a dime. Since I was 11 years old, in fact. Yes, 11.
As for the private 401K or private corporate pension--THOSE ARE PRIVATE, AND NOT TAXPAYER/GOVERNMENT, OBLIGATIONS. The people who invested in those did so willingly and HOPED to make money. You have to make the distinction between investing cash in a private enterprise and labor in a public pension. They are 180 degrees out from one another. You can lose your private pension if invested poorly. If you do, you can try to go after the company who sponsored it, the managers, or someone who may have committed fraud. But if you invest your labor, and defer you wages, in a government position, THE GOVERNMENT IS OBLIGATED TO PAY YOU THE BENEFIT OF YOUR BARGAIN!
Perhaps my point was inartfully expressed. The point I was making about social security and private pensions, including 401K plans where the beneficiary is forced to invest in stock in the company is that these can vanish just as government pensions can vanish. While it is unfair in all instances to see the pensioners cut, that doesn't prevent it from happening when conditions, whether it be collapsing tax revenue streams, a buyout or bankruptcy filing influences the payout. That said, I understand fully your point about government vs. private and I hope not to see anyone's pensions get cut. It is unfair, given that people were laboring based upon a promise that should (must) be paid.
When that employee CHOSE to work for that private company, and CHOSE to participate in the stock purchase plan, he made his bargain. When the comparable public sector employee CHOSE to defer a substantial amount of wages to secure his future income, and the taxpayer, through his government, agreed, then he, too, made his bargain. See the difference?
I had a "heated debate" with a friend and her husband about this same topic after Obama announced his BS pay freeze for federal workers. I left him with a few points to consider:
1) Your agreements were made with politicians, people of little or no honor, scruples, and shame. Once it becomes politically expedient to strip you of those benefits they will do so because its what they do. Its happened before throughout history even in our own country google Mc Arthur and the veterans protests.
2) The rule of law means nothing to these people. They as much as admitted it during the healthcare and auto bailout debates. Go ask the Chrysler and GM bondholders and dealership owners what agreements are worth?
Judge Napolitano on James Clyburn saying the constitution changes to give the feds power for whatever they want to do when needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiThqLLPp1c
3) You claim that all of us are somehow bound by promises made by these people in DC and the statehouses. When enough of us stand up and say we are not going to pay what will you do? It all boils down to consent of the governed, they've almost lost it. When that happens your agreements mean nothing. 51% of the country could agree and vote to rape kill and eat the other 49% do you think those in the 49% will say "gee that sucks but the people have agreed."
Look at all your neighbors, those who don't work for govt and ask yourself if they will lose their homes or let their children go hungry so you can have your agreed upon wages and benefits. Then make a choice to understand as those who stated before "that which cannot be paid won't" and become as self sufficient as you can or bury your head in the sand and keep mumbling about the agreements the rest of us made to you.
As someone already stated: You chose poorly. We're ALL gonna be swimming in a large pool of worthless FRNs -- you're complaining that someone won't give you a towel!
Jeez how much can one man shovel?
How about we cut the crap and agree we are all in the same boat, all being robbed by the same band of swindlers, and we should join together to fight our common enemy not each other?
Having said that let me point out a few flaws in your arguments.
1) Public employees do not work harder, they do not get less pay they get more. The public did not vote for their generous pensions, that was the work of self serving politicians who knew they would be long gone before the pension fund ran out of money.
2) Private sector workers pay into pension funds too and what good does that do them when their employer goes bankrupt or runs out of money? If the money is not there they don't get the pension, simple as that. Why should government employees be any different?
Time for you to cut the crap and face the truth. Are you with your fellow citizens or against them? Remember there are a lot more of them than there are of you.
On the whole, the government employee works neither less nor more than the private sector employee. I never said he did. I said nothing about comparing workload, hours, sacrifices. . . THE ONLY issue is that of the freely-entered bargain. The private sector employee and the government employee each made decisions to do what they do. They each made bargains. Each fulfilled his end of the bargain. The difference is that the government employee bargained to defer a substantial part of his pay to secure his post-retirement income. The private sector employee bargained to seize the opportunity to achieve maximum gains now at the risk of losing his security. So, when the private sector employee fails or his private pension fails, he must accept the responsibility for that because that was part of the bargain. The public sector employee, on the other hand, bargained for the long term security and the taxpayer, not some corporation or private pension fund, owes him the benefits of his bargain.
Again, this is the simplest of principles and I can only imagine that it is resentment and hatred that clouds the thinking and judgment of those who so vehemently oppose its truth.
It's pretty clear the only contract that is sacrosant to mnewn is one that entitles him to money and the only labor worth its price is that which is convenient for him to do.
"Time for you to cut the crap and face the truth. Are you with your fellow citizens or against them?"
He's already admitted he's a parasite, I think it's pretty clear.
"But he is not out to do you in. If he does that, he loses, too."
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/irrevocable-right-benefits#comment-828023
Fuck you. None of the people you speak of "worked their asses off"--not the firefighter, certainly not the police officer, not the mail carrier, etc.
That statement is not only ludicrous, as the vast majority of Americans are beginning to understand, but profoundly insulting to the millions who truly know the meaning of the phrase.
Curse and carry on all you want, and even argue what you argue. The bottom line is that these people all made choices to take less pay and fewer perks now to secure their futures. The private sector people chose to take the opportunity to big money today and accepted the risk of failure in their futures. Government pensioners MADE A CONTRACT WITH THE UNITED STATES, A STATE, OR A MUNICIPALITY. They fulfilled their end of the bargain. The government (i.e., the taxpayer) is now obligated to fulfill its end of the bargain.
And don't forget, I am the one who argues against this insidious class warfare your ilk is on here promoting. I don't see the American taxpayer as an enemy simply because the government the taxpayer elected is seeking to welch on its obligations. They (i.e., you) are simply misled by that cabal. You should wake up and smell the coffee. The pensioner is your ally here.
At least until you stab him in the back. Then those retired cops, firefighters, and military personnel, with their guns and their experience, might just see YOU as the enemy. And this is exactly what this cabal of Wall Streeter big shots, elected and politically-appointed government workers, and the internationalists (including international big business) want. They want you, the taxpayer in private business, fighting the government pensioner. They want us to do the dirty work for them.
The bottom line here is either government devalues the dollar and pays its debts, including its pension obligations, in worthless dollars, or it doesn't. Either way, the pensioner, and private Middle America, is screwed. Again, the only questions left have to do with the EXTENT of the consequent chaos--how many die, how much is destroyed--and what is left out of the ashes.
Ugly. Fast.
Quite the contrary, you are stoking it.
Not at all. I offer the way out--the taxpayer, through his government, meets his obligation. The pensioner gets what he bargained for. The taxpayer, presumably, fixes his problem by electing a government that works.
I don't see any need for this to be us vs. them. It is, the American middle class is at risk to be cheated by government, international corporate backstabbing, and Statism. The government pensioner is part of that middle class being cheated. He not only is at risk to have his hard-earned pension stolen from him, but he is also a taxpayer!
The last thing anyone in the middle class needs is others in the middle class joining forces with the gutless whores who created the mess. However, if some in the middle class join forces with Wall Street, government, and Statists, and deprive the pensioner of his hard-earned pension, then, yes, they are stoking class warfare.
"He not only is at risk to have his hard-earned pension stolen from him, but he is also a taxpayer!"
What a statist fucking whore.
What are you paying taxes with? Where do you think the money came from? Obama's stash?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ojd13kZlCA
What the hell are you talking about? The federal employee pays federal income tax, state income tax, FICA, Medicare. . . just like everyone else. Do you not realize that? What planet are you from?
I am the opposite of a Statist. A Statist would advocate participating in the theft of the pensions the taxpayer, through his elected government, obligated himself to pay. It would be the person who advocates not meeting the obligations of the government he elects simply because he thinks it will swell his own coffers. Sorry, that is not me. That is you, HPD, Reumus, and that ilk.
Everything I have written here is based on the idea of freedom and responsibility as based in the principles of liberty, free enterprise, private property, and the obligation of contract. Those who oppose what I write are the Statists who would destroy those principles because they don't want to accept responsibility for the freedom they exercised through their government.
That which cannot be paid, will NOT be! Please feel free to stick your pitchfork(s) in elected Govt officials and banksters that mismanaged the FRN's in their trust.
Sadly, you are 100% correct - Statists that kept supporting the 'MeRiKan Empire through voting for DemoRATs and/or GOPhers, are fully vested in their debt to you and your thuggish comrades.
On the other hand, AMERICANS that shunned CONSENTING to the creation of the Banana Republik Kleptocracy owe you -0-, zilch, nada.
Of course, that won't stop the parasites from extracting your protection money, AT GUNPOINT, from AMERICANS that are SUBJECT to your tyranny...
P.S. I don't think you'd fully understand the concept of "freedom and responsibility" if it hit you on the head.
Eh, dog food's not so bad--you have to kind of choke down the first few helpings, then you get used to it.
The problem is going to be the price of dog food...
this will be the cause of a CIVIL WAR
Yes it will. As Meredith Whitney and the TrimTabs guy on the frontpage corroborated States are lining up to get bailed out.
It is critical for california,illinois, new jersey and new york to get the order and timing right or the rest of the country is going to revolt.
The rest of the country has already revolted. It is called the Tea Party.
Obamacare is the Ft Sumter of the tax slave war.
Never underestimate thugs with guns.
Oh, you think you'll be able to organize a group of serfs and brandish arms for more then 30 seconds in publick?
lol
Because the public sector didn't care one wit about the level of confiscatory taxes placed on the private sector, even as the private sector gasped for breath, the private sector will not care one wit for the public sectors poor mouthing tribulations.
Sic semper tyrannis ;-)
The Few, The Proud, The Mercenaries!
Private sector? You mean like the TBTF oligarchy?
You seem to be confused about the difference between the wolves and sheep, because sheep will always be easing pickings...
whoever junked you is an asshole. your comment is dead on and the best ive read about this producer vs recipient class problem
Why does anyone care that they're junked.
I guess if you get a number of junks, the general population recognizes the shill.
Indeed Trundle, and it's good they rear their roary little heads. Keeps us on our toes.
But for the public employee, the private sector cannot function. We are all in this together, truth be told. The sort of ludicrous public vs. private class warfare in which many on ZERO HEDGE frame the problem is exactly what could spell the end of us.
IF you are going to go down the road of pointing fingers and blaming government employees for government's failure to meet its promises, then you are pointing the finger at the wrong people/entity. The public sector employee, in many cases, CHOSE that route BECAUSE of a guaranteed government pension. The private sector employee CHOSE his route BECAUSE he was willing to assume the risk of failure SO THAT he might earn greater wealth. It was a risk/reward and cost/benefit calculation. When the private sector guy fails, he fails. He assumed the risk. When the public sector guy retires HE KNOWS his pension WILL BE THERE because that is what he bargained for. IF the government attempts to renege on this bargain, the public sector employee should expect the courts to order the government to meet its obligations. Not so in the private sector. Failure is a private matter (or should be, and the cynical bailout of the whores on Wall Street is exactly the opposite of what should have happened).
Now, if you stop paying retired New Jersey cops and fireman, if you stop paying military retirees, and if you stop paying CIA retirees the pensions they EARNED (remember, in the bargain, they took less pay up front to secure a pension in retirement), it won't be the little girls on Wall Street or the private bankers on Main Street that win out. It will be all those guys with guns, training, and anger that will win out. Sure, American may fail, but the guys who know how to kill won't be ones left holding the bag in the end.
Time for Americans to get smart on the French Revolution. It may get real ugly real quick.
Oh so we have a federal employee in the house. Isn't that sweet. Jump right it pal. The water is real hot and its waiting just for your ass. It might get ugly real quick??. Yes it might get ugly real quick and it might get real hot and real bad, and maybe it would behove you to now, figure out just whose side you really are on. I would think most people around here , could give a rat's ass about your bloated unreasable pensions paid for by taxpayers, via legalized extortion. So you say, well it will be all of those guys with guns , training and anger that will win out. Hell son, who do you think those guys are? Get real. Yeh we got the game down real good and we are watching you real good too. Federalist45, don't do the Tory thing. Its not nice. Ha ,ha, ha...
Which takes us back to this--why are there sides? I would prefer that the taxpayer and the people to whom the taxpayer owes money, get together and figure out how Wall Street, multinational corporations, elected officials, and the internationalists, are going to fix the problems they have created. It is not about taxpayer vs. pensioner. Don't forget, you, the taxpayer, bargained, through your government, for the pensioner to do work at a certain rate, including a certain pension. You OWE the pensioner. But he is not out to do you in. If he does that, he loses, too. But you must honor your obligation to him. The only way for all of that to sort itself out is for you to join together and force government to force the thieves on Wall Street and in the international Statist movement into doing the right thing.
Now, if you want to go high and to the right AGAINST the people to whom YOU owe money, fine. But don't believe for a second that hundreds of thousands of retired police officers and firefighters, and millions of retired military personnel, are going to sit back and let you swindle them without a fight.
HERE IS WHAT YOU MUST NEVER FORGET--YOUR ELECTED GOVERNMENT ENTERED INTO THE CONTRACT WITH THESE PENSIONERS, AND YOU, THEREFORE, THROUGH YOUR ELECTED GOVERNMENT, OWE THE PENSIONERS THEIR MONEY. Forget that and, as I said elsewhere, only two things can result--chaos or tyranny--choose your poison.
"Which takes us back to this--why are there sides? I would prefer that the taxpayer and the people to whom the taxpayer owes money, get together and figure out how Wall Street, multinational corporations, elected officials, and the internationalists, are going to fix the problems they have created."
To do that it would require a supra-majority of the electorate to elect AMERICANS, not DemoRATs and/or GOPhers, that would be willing to restore the Rule of Natural Law from which the USofA was established.
As long as 'MeRiKans keep voting for a chicken-in-every-pot NOTHING will change, as they'll continue to "consent" to tyranny.
The only hope is for a generation to arise that FULLY understands the legal & historical context of the Declaration of Independence, but I'm not holdingmy breath...
I tried that back in the 90s when I was confused about the nature of sheep, and I ended up turning blue.
It really bugs the hell out of me that the public can blissfully consume my services for decades, then suddenly decide it's inconvenient to pay the bill and, further, have the unmitigated gall to crow about integrity or personal responsibility as if they have any fucking clue what those words actually mean.
The quest may seem quixotic, but perhaps it is the only way to make things right?
When more folks lose their jobs (as wage-slaves) and the FRN becomes completely worthless in the Great Implosion, ALL the court orders and legislative mandates aren't gonna be able to compel blood to spring forth from us turnips -- that which cannot be paid will NOT be!
All I can say is you better hope the tyranical empire you served doesn't fall...
ROTFLMAO!...I'm almost speechless.
You couldn't have made my points any better than I could have.
So you really don't have any idea where government salaries & pensions come from do you?
Government wages and salaries are paid by the taxpayer because the taxpayer elected government that contracted with people to work for the taxpayer. See, it's a contract, and each side is entitled to the benefit of his bargain. The taxpayer, through his elected government, got a person's labor for 30 years. The worker gets his pension, which was part of the negotiated bargain, or contract. It is the government's (i.e., the taxpayer's) obligation to pay the pension.
You see, if this fundamental bargain is not honored, then only chaos or tyranny can result. Choose your poison.
No, you simply assumed all the risk when you chose your line of work...LOL.
There is no contract between you and the American people. Whatever "contract" you negotiated, was negotiated with just another employee. You didn't negotiate the terms with the boss.
That would be us...those who pay your salary.
In typical government educated fashion you signed a 30yr. contract with nothing more than the maitre de' (more properly he would be the janitor, the maintenance man) who convinced you it was he who paid the bills.
You chose poorly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubw5N8iVDHI
Wrong. I made an honest bargain in good faith. The taxpayer, through his government, made an honest bargain in good faith. Only after consuming my labor for 30 years, the taxpayers on this website appear to want to urge that government to act in bad faith and renege on the bargain.
I cannot say that government WON'T cheat me and steal my pension. I only say that it would be evil for government to do that.
nmewn--I honestly wish the world were pristine enough for people (i.e., the taxpayer) to have the integrity to meet their obligations. But I accepted from the day I first learned about Adam and Eve and the Fall of Man that this was not so. We are all fallen, all full of sin, and we live in times where people who made bad bargains and failed resent and hate those that made good bargains and succeeded. We live in an age where people believe that if they can only "get the government worker" then they will somehow get something out of it, as if this were a zero-sum game of some kind. We live in an era where people are so shocked by their own failures that they point fingers and their hatred at people who simply succeeded and think that, if they "get that guy," then they will be happy. I hate to disappoint them, but it did not work for Robespierre and Danton and it will not work for you. In the end, you will be more miserable because you will still feel as though you have nothing and that you have been cheated, but on top of that, you will also know that you hated people for no reason other than resentment and greed.
Wake up. This is about freedom and responsibility. If you cheat the pensioner you, through your government, promised to pay, you will be slaves living under tyranny.
John...if I may call you John,
While I find it highly dubious that someone with Federalist 45 as a handle would think and say the the things you do, I'll post once more here.
Your "bargain" was with a bureaucrat, not an elected official.
My elected official only votes (up or down) to appropriate (read tax me) on what another bureaucrat somewhere else within the government says is required for government operations to not take a cut.
That is the way it works.
Having said that...and proven your point of legal conveyance to me moot by fact...I will say again what I truly believe.
In a perfect world a military pensioner would see no reduction in benefits. In a perfect world the private citizen would see no reduction in Social Security benefits or age ponzification. In a perfect world the government would not continually make matters worse by interfering in it's peoples lives.
But it's not a perfect world. There are no unicorns, no Jean Picard snapping of fingers to make it so.
The simple fact is...we are broke.
We find ourselves broke intellectually by a federal government school system that refuses to teach civics, apparently for decades, yet is second in spending per pupil to only one other nation on earth.
We are broke financially because the same school system has taught, again apparently for decades, that money grows on trees.
We are broke culturally and morally because we can't recognize envy & greed when it effects us personally. Whether by age, class, gender or race we are attacked by only one thing and pitted against one another. We both know what that one thing is.
Let me say in closing, thank you, for your service, if what you say about yourself is true. You were however paid and it was, as you say, your choice.
Now you must again join the rest of us.
Goodbye.
Thank you for your civility. In the end that's about the only asset we'll have left.
Rocky - totally off topic, but not sure well else to find you on the site. In another post you wrote about $20 Canadian 0.925 silver bullion coins for sale. I found a $25 Canadain Silver Bullion coin (Canadian Olympic Snowboarding), with some hologram/coloring on it. Do you think the hologram/coloring on this coin will detract from its bullion value? I see the value of purchasing some of these coins for their bullion, face value and the fact that they are Canadian $, which I hope to be more stable than US $ since they export lumber and syn oil from the tar sands. What is your evaluation of the additional cost for the higher face value, and did you purchase some of these coins because they are denominated in Canadian $ also? Thanks.
Thanks Rocky.
We'll be fine. It's the parasitic self annoited gentry class that will be a problem, not us. We pretty much decided we're screwed a long time ago or we wouldn't be doing what we're doing to protect ourselves.
Mostly from them.
Often, when you make a deal with the Devil, it doesn't quite pan out the way you expect it to...
"whoever junked you is an asshole. your comment is dead on..."
The Parasite Class has no fact based response it can make...so they junk in anonymity.
Then again, maybe they think there is a process or procedure they must go through before they can respond...some government program to advise on the proper etiquette or the correct form to fill out beforehand ;-)
Indeed nmewn, they follow the herd.The idea to think independently is shunned.
This is what we are looking at in their world....
The government implements socialist policies, controls manufacturing through regulation, imposes heavy taxes, establishes a massive welfare state and subsidizes unproductive businesses at the expense of productive ones—all in the name of the “public good.”
Right now the American masses seems to have a desire to collapse into the subjugating "Statist" enslaving mind-sets that will trap them into stagnation. Pity...