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Israeli Defense Forces Release Video Of Violence Aboard Turkish Ship
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) - Naval Forces has released a recording, and their summarized version of events that transpired in real-time on board the assaulted Turkish ship early this morning. Obviously, this is just one side of the story - we would certainly appreciate Wikileaks' or some other independent arbiter's perspective on how the other side was interpreting the situation as it was developing, and resulting in over 16 casualties so far. One wonders how many Israeli soldiers were killed during the clash? Warning: video is graphic.
Here is the official statement from the IDF NF on the tragic events from last night:
Early this morning, IDF Naval Forces boarded six ships attempting to break the maritime closure of the Gaza Strip. This happened after numerous warnings from Israel and the Israeli Navy that were issued prior to the action. The Israel Navy requested the ships to redirect toward Ashdod where they would be able to unload their aid supplies which would then be transferred over land after undergoing security inspections.
During the boarding of the ships, the demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF Naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs. Additionally one of the weapons used was grabbed from an IDF soldier. The demonstrators had clearly prepared their weapons in advance for this specific purpose.
As a result of this life-threatening and violent activity, naval forces employed riot dispersal means, as well as live fire.
According to initial reports, these events resulted in the deaths of nine demonstrators and seven naval personnel were injured, some from gunfire and some from various other weapons. Two of the soldiers are moderately wounded and the remainder sustained light injuries. All of the injured, Israelis and foreigners have been evacuated by helicopter to hospitals in Israel.
Reports from IDF forces on the scene are that it seems as if part of the participants onboard the ships were planning to lynch the forces.
The interception of the flotilla followed numerous warnings given to the organizers of the flotilla before leaving their ports as well as while sailing towards the Gaza Strip. In these warnings, it was made clear to the organizers that they could dock in the Ashdod sea port and unload the equipment they are carrying in order to deliver it to the Gaza Strip in an orderly manner, following the appropriate security checks. Upon expressing their unwillingness to cooperate and arrive at the port, it was decided to board the ships and lead them to Ashdod.
IDF naval personnel encountered severe violence, including use of weaponry prepared in advance in order to attack and to harm them. The forces operated in adherence with operational commands and took all necessary actions in order to avoid violence, but to no avail.
Early this morning, IDF Naval Forces boarded six ships attempting to break the maritime closure of the Gaza Strip. This happened after numerous warnings from Israel and the Israeli Navy that were issued prior to the action. The Israel Navy requested the ships to redirect toward Ashdod where they would be able to unload their aid supplies which would then be transferred over land after undergoing security inspections.
During the boarding of the ships, the demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF Naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs. Additionally one of the weapons used was grabbed from an IDF soldier. The demonstrators had clearly prepared their weapons in advance for this specific purpose.
As a result of this life-threatening and violent activity, naval forces employed riot dispersal means, as well as live fire.
According to initial reports, these events resulted in the deaths of nine demonstrators and seven naval personnel were injured, some from gunfire and some from various other weapons. Two of the soldiers are moderately wounded and the remainder sustained light injuries. All of the injured, Israelis and foreigners have been evacuated by helicopter to hospitals in Israel.
?Reports from IDF forces on the scene are that it seems as if part of the participants onboard the ships were planning to lynch the forces.??The interception of the flotilla followed numerous warnings given to the organizers of the flotilla before leaving their ports as well as while sailing towards the Gaza Strip. In these warnings, it was made clear to the organizers that they could dock in the Ashdod sea port and unload the equipment they are carrying in order to deliver it to the Gaza Strip in an orderly manner, following the appropriate security checks. Upon expressing their unwillingness to cooperate and arrive at the port, it was decided to board the ships and lead them to Ashdod.??
IDF naval personnel encountered severe violence, including use of weaponry prepared in advance in order to attack and to harm them. The forces operated in adherence with operational commands and took all necessary actions in order to avoid violence, but to no avail.
Full video:
An "on the ground" perspective provided by Al Jazeera indicates a materially different interpretation of events:
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International waters everybody.
"What if one of the ships was carrying a surface to air missile like a Javelin to hit an aircraft or an even longer range weapon? Prudence would dictate extreme caution."
WTF is wrong with you?
It is a Turkish ship that was controlled by Turkish customs. You think one can just smuggle Javelin or hellfire missiles with ease through a customs control given the controversy surrounding the trip?!?
You seriously need to get your head checked because it’s not fucking working
They should have stayed the fuck home.. customs should have... for the safety concerns alone... should have canceled the trip... But NOOOOOOOOOOOO! they want to push...
Bottom line if I was surrounded on 3 sides, I would do more than Board the ships near my coast line... I would, as any good American would.. have a safety zone, buffering the idiots and what I hold near and dear...
You should get your head checked if you think HUNDRED's of years of bad blood will just be over looked... Like they all will just hug it out! like good little hippies would. The world is not controled by hippies or people who care what hippies think, utopia sounds great but reality is a bitch.
Israel is a family of sane souls surrounded by evil.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
The passengers knew they were crossing a military blockade. What did they think the Isrealis were going, greet them with flowers?
It wasn't the Isrealis who ultimately killed those people, it was their own stupidity.
In end times, Israel is said to be a thorn in the side of all nations...
It's very important to understand what is going on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCSeSOVCfkk
"Bottom line if I was surrounded on 3 sides, I would do more than Board the ships near my coast line... I would, as any good American would.. have a safety zone, buffering the idiots and what I hold near and dear..."
Then fuck off from the land you stole you spineless filth.
Stole from who, the British, or the Turks before them, or the Romans before them? I am confused.
god bless us...When you get right down to it we're just violent little ants aren't we?
I think some here view Palestine as a plucky little righteous underdog, others view Israel as the plucky defender of the remnant.
A pox on BOTH their houses I say.
"A stiff necked people"
Pretty much describes the whole Middle East.
Excuse me while i go ululate....
Gee, is Turkish Customs anything like our Border Patrol.
PhD, you give customs too much credit. Give you an example. I sent a package back in March to my wife's family in the Philippines. The package left Richmond along with hundreds of other packages on ship on Mar 27th. The entire shipment is being held now in the Philippines after coming through Taiwan, because they found 5 pakcages with guns inside them. They were taken apart and attempted to be concealed. Now tell me, why weren't these packages stopped before they were even put on a ship in Richmond Va, and again in Taiwan. They reached their desitnation in the Philippines, before their customs got it.
Don't give customs too much credit, they are bought off everyday, just like our politicians.
You mean the same Turks who invaded Iraqi sovereign territory last week and killed Kurdish civilians with their air Force. Before you burst from your self righteousness, why don't you present all sides. That is the problem with you Euro lefties. you have no fucking idea of this world. Thes people play for keeps.
Hey bozo....Turkish customs mean nothing....do you have sh** for brains or what? Do you think I trust turkey....if you do you're a fool.
"PhD"?.... obviously you got yours in Turkey.... Remember the start of the war, when Turkey rejected a US offer for a BILLION dollars to simply transit the 4th Army through Turkey into northern Iraq?...
Right, the fact the ship was under Turkish flag would certainly ensure that nothing nefarious was onboard... And certainly they, and the "club handed humanitarian peace activists" opened up the ships to search before hand... in fact, they invited it...
You're another one of the "Islamic peace activists" or a moron.
Knight
When you type, do you have to stop mouth-breathing Chumba? Or can your brain handle more than one thing at once?
doesn't Gaza reminds you something from the past? Like Warsaw Getto?
Yeah, the Egyptians should open their border.
Why? So you can finish ethnically clensing the original inhabitants of the land you occupy. Which incidently are Jewish (you don't actually think all Jewish people left Palestine. They first converted to Christianity under the Byzantines and then to Islam)
I am neither Israeli or Jewish. I am simply sick of the double standard. I don't recall any U.N. resolutions requiring the Egyptians nor the Jordanians to cede the land that is now the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians prior to 1967, until those dumbasses lost it by invading Israel.
Let's just admit you don't wish Israel to exist. I can accept that argument and then you can accept the fact Israel dissagrees with you and your ilk, and will fight for it.
Ok?
PS what is your view on Kurdish independence?
I'd be happy for Israel to exist as a regular state. I do not like religious states with a goal of reestablishing something long gone.
Of course it's fine as they are worshipping their god. To me it looks more like a demon. As a buddhist I don't have a huge problem with that but the results speak for themselves.
It is hard to have a discussion with someone who appears to be lying. Your arguments have clear Zionist/religious overtones regarding Divine sovereignty over the land. Very hard to believe a lay person would accept this... so I believe it is BS.
I have and don't have a problem with the exitence of Israel. I think it was founded with not basis in international law, since the UN Charter does not allow the organization to create nations. If we assume it is an established fact, then I have no problem with the state's existence. I would only demand it grant equal rights to all its citizens and would return lands it illegally seized from neighbors and/or would allow dissenting parties to declare their full independence.
(Incidentally, Jordan officially gave up the claim to the West Bank, and supports independence - please be informed before opining)
But just to make it clear. I am a Libertarian. I support any people who wish to establish their own self-rule in a peaceful manner. So yes, I agree with Kurdish independence if a free, fair referendum is conducted. I also support a free Palestinian state as per the will of their people.
Reminds me of the poverty stricken slums which are just a half block or so from every mosque in muslim nations.
If the House of Saud did not steal every all wealth from the people for their boy friends, Gaza would be a paradise.
Irans none stop global quest, jihad, for boy friends is the primary cause of terrorism.
Do you have to stop masturbating when you type? Or do you just use a voice recognition setup so you can wank off while you write such trite, puerile spittle?
I am Chumbawamba.
Look uncle tom... got pick my gold and put it away for me...
Power to the people! now go tell your boy in the WHITE HOUSE! (cause all ya'll always related, right?) Just like Bush was my President! Haa, haaaa, haaaa!
Ain't no fun when the rabbits got the gun, is it?
White Power is out? says who? you? like I said... go pick my gold out of the field for me...
Is that a threat?
Just curuios. I typically respect your comments about fincance and I enjoy your futures posts, but this is a bit much.
Only if Chum was addressing a Joooooooooo.
No, it was more of a request.
Murdering babies and then calling them Hamas terrorists (Gaza, December-January 2009) is "a bit much".
I am Chumbawamba.
you are clueless or a shill. What country are you from?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pB3b6Vyo-xk/S_YwqO_NtjI/AAAAAAAAACM/eIY9uk2MzZ...
You are chumbawamba
and this is Dr. Gilbert
and I shall never
forget January '09.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucASnDua9BE&feature=related
Adam Neira = Zionist Terror Apologist
No Adam. It was a supremely stupid decision.
Forcefully boarding a ship in international waters if conducted by private individuals is an act of piracy, if conducted by a state, it is a cause of war (causa belli) as per accepted in international law. It obviously will not happen, but under the NATO charter, Turkey would be legally entitled to call for Alliance support as it has a legitimiate causa belli. (Remind IDF commanders next time that NATO requires automatic response when a member state is attacked in an unprovoked manner)
Also, quite legally speaking; the protester in fact had the right to be violent. In fact they could have shot every soldier as they were a hostile boarding party. Once again the LAW was on their side.
If Israel was to perform this already stupid idea, they should have waited until the ship was clearly in territorial waters; then they would have had the right to inspect it. Also executing a night time raid did not help from a tactical perspective.
And NATO would not answer to that call. Get real. That is why they wont call for it.
As I wrote, I agree it won't happen, but the Turks have in fact the right to ask for Alliance aid right now. Imagine Erdogan wanted to make a scandal. He could call the allies under the terms of the treaty. They would refuse, and suddenly NATO loses a tad more of its already damaged reputation. (kind of sucks have a mutual defense treaty where your allies will not come to your aid when attacked but you will be expected to come to their aid)
And? Turkey wont call for it because they know they are not part of the gang. They are expected to answer the calls (if they dont want to be labelled terrorists, humanity enemy etc...) but know they wont get the service returned.
Everybody knows it. Powder to the eyes. You cant lose reputation on this ground.
Correction - Turkey has just called for an emergency NATO meeting. Seems they do want to make a diplomatic scandal. http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=128532§ionid=351020202
The damage is also on Israel. Since NATO will not respond, it will look weak and useless. That is not something Obama or the Western powers wanted. Score more points for Israeli diplomacy.
Even better then. It will tell more about the true nature of NATO.
Is it what it claims to be or is it a military organization purposed to push up the best interests of certain countries and a project like US imperialism?
The ball is on NATO's side. What they decide is what they will be.
Every event that can shed more light on the true nature of things is welcome.
Arm, read what you wrote here.
Think about sifting wheat from the chaff. Emoting a foreign policy action without a pragmatic hook generates chuckles.
If Turkey cannot back up their sponsorship of this flotilla's action, why support it? Why sponsor the infrastructure to start this action only to cry to the press about another's transgressions? Who looks weak when you allude to this fracas blowing over.
If you want to know what cabbages talk about when they are in the cabbage patch, they clearly talk about gold and Israeli transgressions.
To the contrary. Much like a zealot you are reading what you want into my comments and not what I wrote. I specifically address that due to realpolitiks, nothing NATO related will occur. I do however point out that this was an illegal act, as it clearly was. You in fact make no point to dispute this. It would seem that you in fact don't care about the legality of the action.
PS: If you've been around here long enough you will know I'm one of the few people on the ZH network that thinks gold is a lousy investment. But thanks again at attempting to stereotype the opposition.
PS2: As I was writing this, somebody posted this link.... seems I was not that crazy.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5/31/871525/-Israels-attack-tests-NATO-Doctrine.-%5BUpdate-x3%5D-NATO-agrees
NATO members are adults. They understand how their actions can escalate tensions within the Middle East. A true NATO member would not have initiated this transgression. Turkey wanted to stir the pot and then wait for the backlash. Turkey knew what their actions in sponsoring this ship would evoke from the Israelis.
Turkey should have given clear instructions to the ship to stop and allow the Israelis to board her and search their cargo. A cache of weapons should not have been loaded onto a ship that purported to deliver humanitarian aid. A reasonable nation would not pour gas on fire. Turkey is not a reasonable nation. Loading the ship with humanitarian aid and stupid weapons for stupid people to use is a crime. Turkey should be punished for this. NATO should censor Turkey for creating this mess and dragging the good name of NATO into this.
Everyone understands that nothing will come of this. Everyone will look at Turkey's intentions twice now that they have tried to pull the wool over on the western world.
Regarding your views on gold, I never noticed you here before.
"Turkey is not a reasonable nation".
I dearly hope that you don't represent the average Israeli. You are basically insulting the ONLY ally Israel has in the region.
Further, Turkey is a (mostly) free state. People can chose to sail to where they please, and the Turkish government cannot order a ship not to sail on international waters.
Israel on the other hand could have easily intercepted the ship in territorial waters and faced only half of the public outcry it is now receiving. At least the action would not be an act of war as per international law.
That is why instead of being a mindless zealot you should learn to respect your enemies (and allies) and respect the due channels of law/diplomacy. It really does make life easier.
Arm, what point are you trying to make?
The flotilla originated in Turkey. The ship the Israelis stopped and boarded was a Turkish ship. The "civilians" attacking the IDF were Turks. Turkey is "baa"ing like a bunch of goats in heat over the indignation their nation has suffered when it sponsored an Israeli blockade run.
These are the actions of the "ONLY" ally Israel has in the region. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
Do you really think stopping that ship and boarding it a couple of miles closer to shore would make a difference? Do you really think the manufactured uproar would be invalidated if the ship was stopped within 12 miles of shore?
This action is clearly a black eye for Turkey. They sponsored this affair and are now suffering blowback. Everyone agrees that nothing will come of this except people can vent their spleens. The players can measure the hands they hold by how the many spectators are playing theirs.
Arm, I wish I could see common sense in your position but I don't.
You do not see my point because you don't want to. The definition of fanatism is a refusal to accept reason.
There is a HUGE difference between intercepting a ship in international waters and intercepting it within territorial waters. One act is legal and the other is illegal. It's that plain and simple.
It's exactly the same as the difference between you shooting a suspicious person standing at the corner of your street and you shooting that same person when he is forcefully entering your home. The person standing at the corner could be a convicted child molester, rapist, and escaped convict, but if you shot him in when he was just standing there, you will be charged with premeditated murder.
I consent with much of that you've posted but not with this definition. Deficiency of human reason is savagery, while fanaticsm is an insane obsession. Much of Jews' depraved insane conduct results from their unique 3000 years of continuous unimaginable degradation and dehumanization, which dehumanization is the primary cause of Jews' lawless savagery or Law of the Jungle.
This is ZeroHedge and dissent is encouraged.
I do however like to repeat I do respect Jewish people. I do descend from them, and I do not think anyone people are intrinsically bad. They are not savages as you state.
My qualm is with the actions of the State of Israel; a state that I believe contributes greatly to the instability of the Middle East, the radicalization of Islam and therefore is horribly counter-productive for world peace and prosperity.
I encourage all to treat fellow human beings with this deep rooted belief in the sanctity of the human spirit.
They fear a closer look at their Kurdish Atrocities. I have an idea:
The Turks give the Kurds their homeland, the Syrian Alawhites allow their people to vote for their leaders, the Russians to return the Kurile Islands, the French, their Polynesian holdings etc. and then we can ask the Israeli's to unblock Gaza.
Yes, Israel can be an international criminal because others are too....
You should examine your broken moral compass.
I just wish to see your outrage levelled elsewhere, as well. i feel you have a dog in the hunt, and not motivated by morals, or your pontificating would addressed to all the world's atrocities. It seems Israel in your mind is the only sinner in the world.
Gaza stops firing into Israel and return their soldier problem solved.
For the rest of Israel they hold a claim for longer than any other nation to this land.
" i feel you have a dog in the hunt"
Here we go again. I'm a Nazi and a anti-semite because I dare accuse Israel of a war crime.
I do not recognize your historic claim to the land. First because people of Jewish faith have not sovereignty on that land for 2,200 years! The current sovereignty was only acquired by foreign imposition. Second, as per genetic tests, the original inhabitants of the land are the Palestineans who also happen to share the same genome as Israelis. Third the claim to further soverignty is based on your own religious text, how convenient.
FYI - As to being anti-semitic, I hope I'm not bacause I would kind of have to take action against myself. I have very clear Jewish background in my family. (damn, Jewish moms are always trying to set me up with their daughters until they realize I'm Christian - which is somehow a bad thing for their daugthers)
Arm, Israel is a nation that has borders. That is nice that you don't "recognize" them. What has happened to your valuation of international law?
I wish I could see some common sense in your position but I don't.
Israel has borders because of UN Resoultion 181. The state was created by this act. I do not accept Resolution 181, because the UN Charter does NOT allow the organization to create nations. It is a bit like me taking out a billion dollar loan for my employer. It is an illegal act, I am not entitled to make commit my employer to doing this. I am willing to accept that Israel is a fait accompli and should now be accepted as a reality.
International law on the other hand does clearly state that ships in international waters are extensions of national sovereignty. Attacking a Turkish ship in international waters is exactly equivalent to an attack on Turkey itself. That is the law, and I would urge you to study it.
I really wish I could see some common sense in your position but I don't.
Sometimes you accept international law; other times you don't. You present yourself as having the wisdom of Solomon yet you deny there being any merit in Israel's actions to protect their nation. If others do not accept your twisted logic, they are deemed fanatical zealots.
Arm, read what you have just written. You are going in circles. If you can't justify your position with common sense, people do not value your opinion. You can get insulting but Chumpawumpa has shown where that course of action will lead. To be clear, Chumpawumpa has severely damaged his Zerohedge persona with his/her stupidity.
Turkey is a member of NATO and carries the NATO brand. If they choose to go renegade they will simply become a big case of Chumpawumpa. No one will take them seriously and no one will want to do business with them. In the end, Turkey will tow the NATO line. They will not personify the "new" NATO. In order for Turkey to save face, any aid convoys will be searched by NATO to ensure that weapons are not making their way to HAMAS via these Turkish convoys.
That is all that Israel wants. This Turkish conduit will be shut down.
Again. You are placing words into my mouth and reading into it what you want. I always accept international law. What I stated is that as per international law the UN did not have the authority to pass Resolution 181. It was an illegal law. See the UN founding charter. Nowhere does the UN have the authority to dictate the creation of a state. Plain and simple.
It is like the US Congress passing a law forbidding free-speech. Any resulting legistation is invalid because the main charter, the US Constitution prohibits it.
Of course, I am arguing law, and you are arguing "common sense", which is another way of saying you don't believe in international law. Fair enough, but be aware of the consequences.
Is there any meaningful recognition within a legal context that Israel does not exist? If you can't provide that reference, what is the basis of your "arguing law"? Are we simply arguing or are we arguing that you are simple?
Do you know that what you are talking about?
I rather thought we were debating, an intellectual battle of sorts; unfortunately you seem to have come unarmed. Stop shaming yourself.
Ok, this is actually getting annoying. Here is the UN Charter
http://157.150.195.10/en/documents/charter/
$200 bucks to your account if you find the reference where it says the UN can ordain the creation of a state.
I cannot legally order something I don't have the authority to order. Thus Resolution 180 is illegal. The argument for the legal incorporation of Israel is Resolution 180; no Resolution 180 = no legal basis for founding of Israel. Is that not plain enough?
Now once the state is in existence we enter into a more complex area of international legal jurisprudence and theory in which Israel can argue it does in fact have a legal right to exist because it NOW exerts sovereignty, has territorial integrity, and is recognized by other states. This would mean the Israel was illegaly established but is now a state in fact. I fully accept this.
As to the blockade. As per the UN Convention on the High Seas Article 22. http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/8_1_1958_high_seas.pdf
In times of peace, you can only board a ship in international water if it is:
a) A pirate
b) Carrying slaves
c) Flying a false flag
Blockades are only really recognized by UN law if they are established by the UN. To board a Turkish ship legally, you would have to be at war with Turkey.
San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49cemight apply if
a) Gaza was a sovereign nation (Israel denies it sovereignty)
b) There was an official state of war (which there is not because it would immediately require the implementation of the Geneva Convention)
c) It would still require proportionality in the reponse
d) It would still not allow the attack on civilians which is a big no, no
My understanding of your position is that Israel has a "right" to exist. You fully accept that. Though you call that "right" illegal, you accept that illegal act. You call Israel's actions against the Turkish transgressions "illegal". If NATO pulls Turkey's chain and terminates Turkey's sabre rattling, I assume you will accept that too.
Is this a correct statement of your position? It is very difficult to follow your flip flops.
I will end this discussion. Yours is a case of willful ignorance. I cannot debate against that.
Know that you have not answered a single one of my arguments. In debating terms what you are doing is throwing in "red herrings"; essentially pointless statements that attempt to ofuscate the point of the debate.
Open your mind. Stop being blindly defending your point of view and read much more on international legal theory and jurisprudence. We can talk then.
Till then, bowing out
You can't debate against much. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Classic neo-con. Throughly discreded you are, yet you think you 'won'. Don't let the facts or the rule of law hit you on your way out.
Why thank you... Thank you very much.
Learn to read: Arm clarified to you UN's transgression in permitting Jews to create "Israel", so Arm estimates correctly Israel to not have any right granted by UN charter. Your argumentation is a typical example of Jews: facile arrangement of inconsiderate phrases or jingles without any perception or comprehension.
So the countries of the world get together at a new forum, the United Nations, and vote to recognize Israel as a new country. You feel that was an illegal or immoral act because some bureaucrat says that countries cannot recognize another new country in this way?
What process do you feel is substantive so that new countries can be recognized by existing countries?
Follow this to a great discussion on the legality of the action.
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c9wzs/idf_releases_their_footage_of_boarding_the_mavi/
Clearly illegal. No state of war, no officially declared blockade, and the ships were aid ships which are cannot be stopped in blockades.
Though you call the act clearly illegal, you have a history of accepting illegal acts. My understanding is that you fully accept Israel's actions in reacting to the Turkish transgressions.
Have you seen the video of the ships passengers chanting praises for Allah?
If your belief system grants an eternal reward for violence, you should be denied entry anywhere on Earth.
Allah is a pimp.
I actually believe militant Islam is a great danger to the Western civilization, but that is not what were are debating now. We are debating whether it was legal for Israel to storm a foreign ship in international waters.
Hmmm...
There is are always two sides to an argument. In this case, the arguments also go back in time quite a while. History says this fight will eventually end badly for the little guy.
Depends how you interpret "little."
In terms of size, yes, Israel is smaller. In every other respect, it's much larger than its neighbors. History shows that in warfare, numbers mean far less than one would suspect -- for reference, Google Thermopylae, Crecy, Salamis, Alesia, Agincourt, Chancellorsville, Cannae, Rorke's Drift, etc, etc.
6 day war, Yom Kippur war....air battle with Syria won 79-0, the list goes on. On the one side you have modern, western educated, FREE men intent on keeping their freedom. On the other side you have backwards, ignorant, virtual slaves with little going for them.
You plan to savor the genocide because it's so delicious.
And you are God's noblest of men.
Sorry. All of G*d's noble men are dead, have been dead for some time.
.
You are a moral void and a genocidal fool.
OK now I get a glimpse into the full extent of your gold obsession chumba.
When I'm short this or that in my portfolio, I admit end up tempted to wish for mayhem or the fates to fuck up the thing I'm short on. The healthy attitude is to predict a thing's or a country's or a company's downfall, and go ahead and calmly and coldly short it if you dare, but to never fall for wishing destruction upon it. The latter attitude is frothing at the mouth sociopathic. Got any friends? I mean well adjusted positive people?
Hey man, when it comes to hatred of Israel and zionists, I plead GUILTY mother fucker.
And happily so.
I am Chumbawamba.
So that means you have no friends... healthy adjusted ones.
I was a Chumba fan until today. True colors, and all that. Sorry.
Yeah, fuck you. I don't need any zionist fans, thank you.
I am Chumbawamba.
Beautifully put. You are quite the wordsmith, Chubby.
Wow. So seldom does somebody so thoroughly need an ass-kicking.
So seldom does somebody so thoroughly need an ass-kicking.
What can one say? Here's a person who brags of plans to masturbate when the Middle East is finally Judenrein.
I never was a chumba fan, dirty mouth, vile hatred, filthy existence. Constantly ripping others for a point of view about life, gold, or the markets proves you're a weak, insecure, individual with low self esteem. Jerking off comments are a roadmap into a soul searching for acceptance. Look at all your JUNKS.... think that's admirable on one of the most reputable forums around?
Now wishing that a race gets obliterated, whether good or bad (and that's not an earthly decision) proves you're an uneducated, prejudicial fool.
Get a life, chumba.
You expressed my thoughts completely. Seems like all sides should suspend judgement on this action until a through inspection of the ships is performed. If no weapons are found I'll be very surprised. Otherwise, they would have honored the request to dock and allow inspections. Turkey has a terrible historical record of human rights, almost as bad as Russia.
Fuck you, douchebag!
I am Chumbawamba.
Coming from you I am unmoved in any direction, because, who are you again?
I am Chumbawamba, bitch!
If you want to be called chumbawamba bitch, that's your call.
It's so tragic when one of your favorite blog commentors turns out to <GASP> uphold the values of human rights and common decency.
Sorry to have disappointed my many former fans.
I am Chumbawamba.
"Chumba the jerkoff".
Works for me.
gonna move back the old family homestead in syria?
*lulz!*
Thank you for the honesty.
Allah is pimp and his prophet is a whore.
And Mohammed was a pedophile, right. What's your point?
Whoa. A rabid and psychotic Syrian hell-bent on the violent destruction of Israel, pausing only between fits of angry frothing at the mouth to discuss his masturbatory fantasies of death and torment. How thoroughly...unsurprising.
What are the odds on every, single one of these "peace activists" being carbon copy images of chumbafuckstick here?
I think you guys are forgetting the fact that the Israelis who formed there country on the basis that they never had sovereign land of their own, did so by taking someone else's (Palistinian) home and tossing them into a resource barren ghetto.
Kind of like "Indian Reservations". Do they have a Burea of Palestinian Affairs and can the Gaza Boyz open casinos and tax free cigarettes?
The last time I checked there were no walls around the reservations. They have access to education and free college if they are willing to do it, and can be free to integrate into our society. Most 'choose' not to-
This is because they are treated just well enough to get by, social welfare at its worst. There are plenty that do make it good, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famous_Dave%27s
The ones that left (and not many could have left actually, because the population density was low a the time) did so in large part voluntarily, with the expectation of returning after the invading arab armies had run out and killed the jews. Them, well actually their extremely numerous welfare dependent progeny became the "palestinian refugees."
But what about the many arabs who stayed you (don't) ask? They and their children became citizens of Israel, who live in health and wealth and peace and freedom almost unknown in most of the arab world.
So the stupid and the murderous made their choice and took their chances, and so did the less stupid and less murderous. Some did 2000% better than others.
I don't know what's worse: that zionists tell these fairy tales to their progeny, or that their progeny are so addled from all the inbreeding that they actually believe it.
I am Chumbawamba.
What the fuck?
I guess from your limited view of history. When did the Palistinians ever own this land?
A history lesson
Israel
Syria
Persia
Babylon
Greeks
Syrians
Israel
Romans
Turks
British
Israel
You see a circle of life. this spans 3,500 years.
What a racist piece of rubbish. Zionists are just like Nazi's.
It is an undisputed fact that Palestineans are genetically the same as Jews. Why? Because most Jewish people did NOT abandon Palestine during Roman times. They in fact stayed and converted to Christianity under the Byzantine's and then converted into Islam. Palestineans are the original inhabitants of the land and are in fact "Jewish". You are in fact discriminating against your own people. Israel has become very much a religious Apartheid state
Says you. Rome forcefully scattered the Jews after they sacked Rome in 70 AD. And do you know how people converted from Christianity to Islam in these countries, you dumb ass. That's right, convert or die. And don't call me a Nazi, my family, although German, fought a died for America in Europe in WW11. You throw shit around like you have any idea.
Please site a source for this alternative view of history.
No not says me. Says SCIENCE.
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article5504478.ece
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/742430.stm
Please note that Dov Stein, secretary of the Sanhedrin recognizes Palisteneans as converted Jews. Is that enough proof for you or do I have to pull the actual scientific papers?
Further the Diaspora is somewhat of a myth/exageration. Essentially only the rich city elites left Palestine during Roman occupation, the poor peasants remained, because they could not afford to go anywhere and Romans only compelled Jews to leave the cities. The Diaspora myth is perpetuated because it is what justifies "reclaiming" Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora
You also show your biggoted nature when you immediately assume that I am American. I am not. I am sorry for your family, but quite frankly whether they fought or died for the USA affects me in no way.
Israel is behaving like an Apartheid state every bit as evil as Nazi Germany. The death camps only began in 1942. Prior to that the Nazi's forced special ID's for the Jewish, confined their occupations, restricted service in military, confined them to ghetto's, etc. If you have a critical mind you will see that these same restrictions apply not only to Palestineans, but also to Israeli Arabs. This too is a sad fact, and if not please do disprove with EVIDENCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy
The only thing missing is for Israel to start systematically killing Arabs. And I have heard more than one Israeli actually propose that.
PS: Funny, in your other post you stated you were not Jewish. I guess we have to take your comments at face value.
please do some research on genetics.
This shouldn't be an argument about genetics, its about culture. The Jewish culture with its respect for the individual, women rights, education and control of his/her destiny (vs "fate"). In short, the questioning of authority. Its always about culture. There are cultures that "work" and those that doom their people to slavery and ignorance. Unfortunately, most Arab cultures have opted for blind obedience to religion over rationality. Paradoxically, they admire the weapons made possible by freedom, the scientific method and democracy, yet if they adobt principles of the Judeo-Christian culture which enabled all modern science and technology they become just like us culturally (they are already essentially identical genetically). Bad for their leadership, but good for their people especially women. So, then they won't need to "steal" nuclear weapons technology from the West. They could develop it themselves, but because their fundamental culture would have changed, they would likely choose not to do so.
I have. Have you? See my post above.
My point is that it is silly to argue that Jewish people are the "original" inhabitants of Palestine. Most of the original inhabitants never left!!
They have all, All! No... Wait! ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of the other land around to live on... the one... little slice that the Jews have defended against attack... by multiple other Countries, at once...
Well it seems to me, the Will of Allah... is that the Jews keep what they have plus some... for the effort. God's Will, will be done... says the Camel Jockey’s, if that's true then the Jews are in good standing with Allah.
I offer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War as proof, positive... that Allah is on the Jews side.
Out of boredom I fact checked you. Your'e full of shit.
Really? Go ahead. I want to learn. What did you fact check that was wrong? Please contribute to the education of this community.
Comment directed at Solarman. Relax fool.
Sorry. I get carried away sometimes
Excuse me but there are always three sides to an argument.
Maybe, maybe not :)
Complex problems can have many, many sides.
Israelies and Palestinians are both just lables for large groups of individuals, some of whom are guilty and some of whom are innocent of the crimes committed by a subset of their groups.
All I can honestly say is that it looks like Israel hase a more open, libertarian society than any of it's Muslim neighbors.
This is especially evident in the rights of women in Isreal versus the rights of women in any Muslim dominated country, as evidenced by pictures like thi:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/israel%20gun%20laws/MSimon6808/Israel...
Doesn't mean Israel is inherently 'right' and Muslims are inherently 'wrong', but I sure as hell know where I'd rather live if given a choice.
Doesn't mean Israel is inherently 'right' and Muslims are inherently 'wrong', but I sure as hell know where I'd rather live if given a choice.
What the hell does that have to do with whether or not it was morally right to use military force to board and seize a ship at sea in international waters and kill passengers and crew?
Depends upon the exact facts of this situation, which I propose neither of us know in full.
If indeed what you suggest is true then Israel may have committed an act of war against Turkey.
If one or more of the floatilla was transporting weapons into the Gaza (again I don't know but I presume this is at least a possibility based upon the history of the multitude of rocket attacks launched from Gaza into Israel) then Israel would have been justified in the interception of the ships.
Nevertheless, I maintain that Israel is a more free, libertarian, and democratic society than any of the Muslim countries which surround it.
Doesn't mean Israel is always 'right' but it makes me a tad bit more sympathetic to their side of the story.
Of course the above in no way means I support the Israeli influence upon the political system in the USA.
If I had my druthers I'd eliminate all Federal aid to all foreign countries and instead have the equivalent amount of taxes collected from the American taxpayer never be collected in the first place.
Edit: FWIW I don't junk responses to which I reply.
William,
No worries about the junks. This issue reveals itself as one that defies rational discussion, and when anyone tries to be rational about it the junker shills come out in force.
I was at one time sympathetic to the plight of Israel, but no longer. Of all the peoples on the planet, they should understand what it means to oppress and be oppressed, to become paranoid and dehmanize one's enemeies. This is where they have failed completely; their treatment of the other people who already lived in "Israel" is inexcuseable.
Bad weed day, be warned all who enter here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4
The recording and cast from an Al Jazeera crew on one of the boats as they're fired upon and boarded in international waters by the Israeli Military.
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c9ugg/youtube_video_of_the_ai...
sidewalkchalked
It seems as if:
1. Israelis fired on the ship before boarding, thus disproving the Israeli story of self-defense. (first shots heard at 24 seconds, but when the video starts, two people have been shot, and tear gas and stun grenades have been fired. Reporter claims this attack is coming "from all sides.")
2. No weapons are easily visible on the side of the demonstrators, unless there is a pistol in the left hand of the man at 2:43. (opinions? cell phone? walkie-talkie?)
3. White flag confirmed at 3:30. This seems to contradict early accounts that the vessel was flying a white flag when attacked.
4. Shooting continues at least until minute 7.
5. Weird struggle at 6:07. A guy looking like a soldier prances around as another guy tries to take his gun (?)
Gully Foyle,
Just to be clear.. before the choppa's landed anyone on the ships they fired on the ship? but when the troops where attacked on deck? no shots?
Are you stupid? or lacking coffee? its a long weekend so I will chaulk this up to drinking and just a mistake... it happens to all of us, no worries Bro... get you sea legs back and feel free to re-join the party...
If anyone would like me to yet further dumb down what I have offered here... please let me know... as I would be happy to explain common sense too anyone who lacks it... in an effort to better man kind.
Sincerely, JW
Screw mankind. No wait, we'll just do it ourselves. Gulf shrimp anyone? HaHaHa.
Drill! Baby!! DRILL!!!
The Russian's are counting our money already... Iran? Chavez? and now this? WOW!
You are missing the point. The ship was boarded in international waters. Under maritime law Israeli troops were a hostile boarding party. The Turkish ship could fire away at them as much as they pleased.
I am serious, the crew of the ships could have lined the IDF soldiers on the deck and just shot each one. It would have been a legal kill. Israeli soldiers on the other hand have a problem. ANY kill they made was in fact illegal. It is like you shooting at a man attacking you in your home. In most jurisdictions you are legally allowed to kill the man in self-defense, while he is not allowed to kill you.
In short: Fire the Israeli commander that could not wait 2 more hours for the ships to be in territorial waters.
Second time I read that drivel. In the US, the point of view that some have a legitimate right to self defense when attacked and others dont is commonly hold. This event will once again show that.
It's not drivel. It is the law, and it is what keeps us from turning into barbarians. Unfortunately, Israel has a history of violating international law at its convenience, but ironically basis its existence on the same laws it violates. You really can't have it both ways
Dont know if you believe what you wrote.
Practical evidences should point at 'breaking rule of law, mark of the barbarians' stuff as propaganda.
Breaking the law, rule of law and barbarians are civilized people's propaganda. Not less that barbarians, civilized people dont abide by the rule of law. The rule of law is self promoting self construed ego flattering propaganda. It cant pass the test of reality. Civilized people infringed at least as much as Barbarians the rule of law.
An example just happened.
And you can obviously have it both ways. Same reflexion (empirical observation)
Ok, so your point is that law does not exist and we can all do what we want (or at least what we can get away with)?
I don't think I really need to comment on this to discredit you.
You are pushing my comments over the limits.
You will see that the version is harder to discredit than you claim it is.
There are different groups over the world, some more powerful than others.
With power comes certain priviledges like:
-being in a position of less trangressing what you set for others (eg: a slaver who captures slaves [sign of power] puts himself in a position where trangressing slaves duty of obedience to their master is less required than it is for the slaves. A slaver faces less situations he has to try to free himself than his slaves do.
Consequence: for a slaver, it is rather easier for him to abide by a rule of law that set that slaves should not try to free themselves. Therefore a slaver is respectful of the rule of law.
-powerful groups can paint through propaganda how weak group are to be considered.
That story of barbarians is just of these stories powerful groups have painted over weaker groups.
Once again, a practical evidence of this process will be given by this event.
The difference between the so called barbarians and the so called civilized is not a intrinsic respect of the law. The difference is the number of times each of the groups face situations they might lead them to break the rule of law.
A slave faces every day situations where he might have to break the rule of law to get his freedom. The slaver will only face similar situations when captured himself. Until then, it has no incentitive to disrespect the rule of law.
What matters in the end is that when facing a similar situation, both barbarians and civilized people react the same.
The story of rule of law is simple hogwash propagated by so called civilized people.
Are these the same laws that govern GS, JPM, porn downloading at SEC, voting machine manipulation, ad bloody infinitum. Laws are only enforced in favor of he who has the biggest guns. Wake the hell up.
Fucking barbarian Muslims.
Muslim = Marxist = oppressive control freak. I understand power elite bullshit but what I don't understand is Women who support the rape of women. If that's your thing then fine enough so long as it is voluntary and you get the rush that you seek. It's your's after all and I encourage you to do with it as you wish.
I get that so many of these 'muslims' are dangerous. I also understand that they are victims as well. Makes me bloody crazy pissed to observe humans being fucked like this.
Overt manipulation VIA deceptive means. It is the LIE stupid.
If I can't trust you then I won't trust you.
Israel got set-up.
You could in a perfect world trace this back to the Narcissist in Chiefs' hatred of the real man. Bowel movement won't let go of the determination to bring Benny down.
It's personal.
Oh please, this whole thing is a gigantic PR clusterfuck being carefully orchestrated from both sides.
The so-called "peace activists" knew full well they had a win/win scenario on their hands:
Scenario 1: Break through the blockade and score one against the IDF.
Scenario 2: Get attacked, and prove Israel to be bloodthirsty and militant. (And it looks like the "peace activists" came ready to fight, btw).
Israel, facing this lose/lose scenario, went with the option to attack and took their PR loss standing on their feet -- extracting a high cost for the "peace activist's" PR victory.
Anyone thinking this was a simple "humanitarian shipment that got attacked", is just plain naive to the amount of strategy and public-relations planning that went into this entire operation.
And you Chumba, are chomping at the bit to let loose your anger at the joos. Hot jewish chick dump you when you were a snot faced kid?
Has the "peace activist" side produced any youtubes of their own? A dozen helmet cams and fixed cams with IR illumination can't cost that much compared to chartering a boat to purposely run a blockade.
And I'm sure you said the same thing about them CrAzY niggers that tried to end segregation in the US, hmmmm?
Scenario 1: Get into the restaurant and sit in the white section, score one against whitey.
Scenario 2: Get attacked with dogs, water hoses and batons, and prove that Whitey is bloodthirsty and racist.
Anyone who thinks them niggers were just trying to assert their human dignity is just plain naive to the amount of strategy and public-relations planning that went into the entire anti-segregation movement of the 1950s-1960s.
Yeah, FUCK MLK!!
I am Chumbawamba.
Yep, the southern Democratic party was awful, chumba. Thanks god for the Republican party, which was way ahead of their rivals in fighting for civil rights and ending racial discrimination.
Until the establishment Democrats in the south became Republicans overnight.
We still have a Dem member who voter against the civil rights bill in the senate today.
klu Kluk Klan ex- member Sen Byrd.
IIRC MLK and the entire Civil Rights, anti-segregation movement in the Southern USA during the 1950's-1960's was based on a less confrontational, more peaceful philosophy than the militant-terrorist tactics used by the Palestinians.
Seems to me that the Palestinians aren't really like "them CrAzY niggers" as you so inelegantly put it.
This really isn't a useful comparison, and the fact that you also deliberatly insult those who were promoting desegregation detracts from the sympathy you apparently demonstrate towards the Palestinians.
To me at least.
Mere sarcasm doesn't seem to give you quite enough cover, but as evidenced from other posts in this thread you also seem to take great pleasure in violence, so maybe I just don't understand your mindset?
Sorry, William, there's just no more room for your ignorance in this discussion as I'm afraid the quota for it was met very early on. Perhaps if you studied the numerous non-violent peaceful protests that Palestinians have employed for many years now you would not come off as an uninformed boob. Bonus points if you can find the reference to Bi'lin that the IDF spokesdouchebag talked about today during their press conference.
I am Chumbawamba.
There's plenty of room for ignorance in this discussion, chum, despite your non-stop efforts to consume all such space.
"Sorry, William, there's just no more room for your ignorance in this discussion as I'm afraid the quota for it was met very early on."
Sorry Chum, but there is just as much room for my 'ignorance' as there is for your hatred and irrational vitriol against all things Israel. It sort of makes you look bigoted and ignorant, which may very well be your intention if you are engaging in double-speak in order to actually drum up support for Israel.
'Perhaps if you studied the numerous non-violent peaceful protests that Palestinians have employed for many years now you would not come off as an uninformed boob."
Really? Why don't you present us with your detailed studies on the comparison between the tactics employed by American blacks during the 1950's and '60's in the USA South and those of the Palestinians going back the past 50 years or so?
I grew up there and then and I don't remember any rocket attacks from black neighborhoods into the white ones.
Boob. heh heh. You be da funny man Chum.
"Bonus points if you can find the reference to Bi'lin that the IDF spokesdouchebag talked about today during their press conference."
Haven't seen the press conference, which only re-enforces my ignorance I guess.
Just 'cause I don't immediately jump on your bandwagon doesn't mean I disagree with everything you say, you make a couple of points in this thread I agree with.
But your obvious hatred sort of pollutes them for me.
Edit: FWIW I don't junk responses to which I reply.
chumba, you are one hateful motherfucker
Yes, I hate war criminals and human rights abusers, and idiots who can't figure out the obvious for themselves, but instead choose the road of ignorance. Enjoy your trip.
I am Chumbawamba.
Come on, why only two scenarios?
Dont make much sense.
What made me laugh is to imagine a similar scene with KKK demonstrators moving into a black neighbohour. A funny one.
The US legacy is duplicity.
Yup, not too many volunteers for the next peace activist flotilla Iimaigine. Alos the Israelis will not simply show up next time. I'd like to meet the so called turks who were on board.
The world will move on from this and back to europe where all of the peace activits will contiue to fight for the social welfare checks
I told you boy!!! go pick my gold out of the field... if you want to be a good house Nigga... instead of a outside slave... do what needs to be done...
I'm so glad you'll be dead next year.
Is the Rapture going to sweep me away? I am Catholic, fuck you evangelicals... Crusades! Part 1,001!
It only takes one to see evil.