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Japan Prepares To "Bury The Problem" Following News Of Uncontrolled Reactor 1 Chain Reactions
And once again our prediction about Fukushima (namely the inevitable entombment of the entire facility in thousands of tons of concrete) is about to be realized. Bloomberg reports that Japan will consider pouring concrete into its crippled Fukushima atomic plant to reduce radiation and contain the worst nuclear disaster in 25 years. The reason for the admission of total defeat is the gradual comprehension that the worst case scenario has come to pass: "The risk to workers might be greater than previously thought because melted fuel in the No. 1 reactor building may be causing isolated, uncontrolled nuclear chain reactions, Denis Flory, nuclear safety director for the International Atomic Energy Agency, said at a press conference in Vienna." Not one to cover up the worst case outcome for a week, TEPCO only did so... for five days: "Radioactive chlorine found March 25 in the Unit 1 turbine building suggests chain reactions continued after the reactor shut down, physicist Ferenc Dalnoki-Veress of the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies in Monterey, California, wrote in a March 28 paper." It's good thought" Radioactive chlorine has a half-life of 37 minutes, according to the report." It appears Japan is willing to give up, and write off a several hundred square kilometer area, as nobody in their right mind will ever agree to move in next to a territory that, contrary to lies, er, promises, will not seep radioactivity in the soil and in the water. This is an unprecedented admission of defeat by the Japanese which unfortunately may be the only solution, which will certainly have major implications for the Japanese economy.
The now much expected spin on this last ditch effort:
Tokyo Electric mixed boron, an element that absorbs neutrons and hinders nuclear fission, with emergency cooling water to prevent accidental chain reactions, Kathryn Higley, head of nuclear engineering and radiation health physics at Oregon State University in Corvallis, said in an e-mail.
Dismantling the plant and decontaminating the site may take 30 years and cost Tokyo Electric more than 1 trillion yen ($12 billion), engineers and analysts said. The government hasn’t ruled out pouring concrete over the whole facility as one way to shut it down, Edano said at a press conference.
Dumping concrete on the plant would serve a second purpose: it would trap contaminated water, said Tony Roulstone, an atomic engineer who directs the University of Cambridge’s masters program in nuclear energy.
How anyone could think the outcome would be anything but following a brief look at the latest overflight of Fukushima is beyond us.
As for what happens after a concrete tomb, which increases the surrounding pressure by orders of magnitude, is put over what now appears is still a live fision reaction, well, we won't make any predictions. Suffice to say if historical precedent of how TEPCO has handled this situation to date is any indication, expect the sarcophagus to crack, and a 100 km "No Live Zone" radius to be extended around Fukushima in perpetuity.
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All this from a guy who makes a quadruple post on page 1 of this thread.
I'm thinking IQ is an unreliable indicator of intelligence.
I was never going to mention this ... but he is pissing me off. Anyone who has the need to post their putative IQ as part of their login name ... well. Enough said.
+
The thing about 'virtual personas' and the software systems that manage them, is that the cubicle seats still need to be manned by somebody, and the USAF or whoever runs this program doesn't have access to terribly bright operators. The results can pretend fairly well to be 'individuals', but there are subtle giveaways. For one thing the usernames tend to be unimaginative (after all, they have to make up so many!) Avatars ditto, but also tend to reveal a fundamental hostility to the forumites they are pretending to be one of. Another sign is that these 'personas' seem to be able to participate for humanly impossible hours, and type up multiple long posts, with amazingly small intervals between each post time. I wish forums like zerohedge would build in 'troll detection' software, flagging posters who maintain physically impossible post schedules. Only possible when a 'poster' is really a number of seats in a troll-farm, all manned 24-7.
As for the double and tripple postings, I'm guessing in some cases that's some kind of bug with the virtual personas software. The operator types up some shit, clicks post, then goes on to another thread or forum on his roster list. The software is supposed to handle the job of ensuring the post happened. Maybe it has a retry timer or something.
Nice.
Spell check much? You appear to be shaving IQ points faster than Charlie Sheen at a 'Coke and Hookers Expo'...
It's not going to be bad at all. We just need the EPA to raise the limits on what level of radiation is considered safe and everything will be fine.
Japan was doing well with their initial choice to raise the safe limits. They just need to continue to raise the limit and it will work out. Kind of like raising the limit on the debt ceiling. As long as you raise the limit, who can argue against that.
They are working the spin.
Low levels of radiation found in US milk
Results from a March 25 milk sample taken from Spokane, Wash., showed levels of radioactive Iodine-131 that were still 5,000 times below levels of concern set by the FDA, including levels set for infants and children.
WTF
5,000 times below levels of concern
Idiot child; use google; learn how to think. Lifetime of iodine five days. Milk has been contaminated since the era of the American Bomb tests. look it up. don't be a sap for sensational journalism. We have enough fools as it is; we don't need another one.
This is the 3rd or 4th time today you have significantly misstated the half-life of Iodine-131. It's 8.0197(ish) days. I am not the only one who has corrected you, now for a 2nd time. Seems you don't understand what "Half-life" means either, perhaps you should use google, idiot child.
Half life of his brain cells is apparently that of Darmstadtium...
Reply to @IQ145
My God, you are dumb. Are you the best the Air Force can come up with? At least twats like McGoldPrick and 'More Critical Thinking' have some intelligence with which to guide their sophistries..
If "Lifetime of iodine five days" how can milk have been contaminated with it 'since the era of the American Bomb tests', which were decades ago?
As it happens, the half-life of Iodine-131 is 8 days. That means it's radiologically dangerous for several weeks.
edit: Looks like IQ145's post got junked to oblivion. Too bad I didn't take the time to copy & paste it for posterity; it was a real corker.
from accuweather.com
Of the 40 tropical systems that passed within 100 miles of Sendai between 1945 and 2008, 16 were of typhoon strength at some point within 100 miles of Sendai. None of those typhoons were stronger than a Category 2 hurricane when they entered the 100-mile radius.
So maybe Fukushima gets a pass on a supertyphoon hit. Then again ...
I feel bad for whoever is going to do this work.The body's are going to be stacking up trying to do this.This is ten's of million's of cubic yard's! How do you get it there? By Train, truck or boat? Now you have a contaminated vessel,do you contaminate the countryside on the way back? How about the manufacturing plant? What if the supplying country's do not want radioactive conveyance's at their port's? Not to mention just getting this thing under some kind of 'control' before you even begin entombment.I'm an optimist,but I can't see it being done.
How do you get it there
You don't. You do what they do at any large concrete job and build an on-site batch plant.
"How anyone could think the outcome would be anything but following a brief look at the latest overflight of Fukushima is beyond us."
De-Nile, the world's most powerful river.
If it ever cracks the mummies that emerge will rival the zombies in the US that endlessly debate R vs D.
Spoken like a true Democrat.
Did you actually read his comment?
He is criticizing both Republicans AND Democrats.
And the zombie slaves who love them.
Bend over fool
I thought he was being ironic. Read that way, it was a pretty good one-liner.
+1,000,000
voting=dumb thing to do
I can hardly wait to see what next month brings.
Swarms of locusts are next i believe.
We mustn't overlook the very real possibility that the people of Honshu cease to exist as an organized society and devolve into nocturnal carnivores rapidly mutating towards biological invincibility. IMHO!
Followed shortly by the death of the firstborn.
BB announces his candicacy for president in 2014?
Is there such a thing as "limit up" in S&P futures?
No plan B....
Plan B http://oilgeology.blogspot.com/
I sense a great disturbance in the farce.
Hopefully it's not spoiled or we'll all get sick.
4 entombments coming. This is going to be a very long and tragic problem. #3 will stand out as a open sore. Plutonium has a mind of it's own.
no wonder the SPX went up so much.
Since this is an economic news site, I'll relay a first hand observation.
The prices of all used, late model vehicles, are jumping at the major US auction dealer wholesale, Mannheim. We are talking thousands of dollars delta between two weeks ago and today for the same make and model.
A two month shut down of all Toyota and Honda is going to kill a lot of GDP. If just one component in a Dodge production line was sourced from Japan, JIT is going to stop the production till a new vendor can be lined up and validated.
For US car dealers, Fukushima might as well have been a nuclear bomb.
Really. Let me investigate this and see. If true this is not good .
I keep talking about the specific fact that Japan is the world's largest exporter, and 3rd largest economy, in the world, and the weak global economy will have difficulty absorbing this.
This is going to crush jobs everywhere.
This is what's known as a catalyst for a cascading event of job losses and lost production, sales, commissions, activity and so forth.
the good news is that GM already built so many that nobody bought that they can finally work through their inventory.
Anyone who was not channel-stuffing is going to have trouble doing the JIT production game
Even GM will run out of cars...
...in a couple of years.
I believe they are still trying to unload some '72 Vega's. Also, most of the old '81 Chevrolet Caprice's ended up in the Middle East and are being modified to carry roof mounted 50 caliber machine guns in the CIA's new Libyan People's Army. They're going to need spares.
Some of the more complex components built in Japan have been made as specialized as possible, in order to prevent the Chinese producing fakes (and protect against currency fluctuations). It's going to be a real problem as there are a number of these in the the Sendai region and the idea that you can just phone a factory in a different country and get replacements.
I keep mentioning that Japan may well lose the ability to produce advanced integrated circuits. Background radiation levels of all materials involved in IC production must be very low, otherwise defect rates become untenable. Most critical for very high density devices like DRAM an flash memory. But applies to all ICs too, and I'd guess LCD screens.
No one else thinking about this?
Pics look like Detroit but nicer
You could say that about most every post apocalypse movie to, what's your point? I'm still waiting for OCP to clean that town up. Who knew that Robocop would be prophetic?
Come to think of it, Detroit would make a good dump for radioactive materials.
No more singing in the rain.
They shouldn't need any concrete.
With the amount of bullshit coming out of the propaganda machine they should have signifact quantities enough to bury that site under a pile the size of Everest.
The Soviets as comparative protectors of their citizenry? Who woulda thunk it.
http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/4213197648/iaea-confirms-very-high-levels-of-contamination-far#disqus_thread
We've been fully in the Twilight Zone since 2001, just different people coming to that realization at different times. Sure the game has been going on a lot longer, but they brought it into the public then.
Yes.
Life was very sane prior to 2001, regardless of what the truth behind the events of that day are/were.
2001 through today has been the most bizarre decade, by far, of my life.
People in their late 50s tell me the that the last decade has been the most bizarre decade, by far, of their lives.
I'm in my middle 50's, and did I mention that this decade has been most bizarre?
However I wouldn't rate 2001 as a significant turning point, so much as yet another escalation of the rate of decline and the blatancy of those doing the dragging down.
When did it start? How about centuries ago, if you consider present conditions the result of secret elites messing things up. Or sometime in the 1800's, if you like to blame Zionists. How about that BOTH WWI & II were deliberately initiated on false pretenses, primarily for the benefit of the usual elite suspects (who happen to be mostly bankers, if you didn't already know it.) Or more recently you could point to a series of false flag attacks, all working up the skill set for full scale productions like 911. How about the Kennedy assassinations, the very last time America had a president with any honor? Or any conception of sound, constitutional money for that matter.
What we're in now is the accellerating slide down the slope to Tainter's Collapse. It gets faster and faster, have you noticed? Our 'complex society' was already being strained by multiple challenges it probably cannot handle. Energy supply reductions, financial system complexity-based implosion, an 'internal attack' mounted by an ideologically deranged Elite class, and now all of a sudden comes an 'external crisis', in the form of a massive cultural, industrial and nuclear contamination disaster.
Everyone who has read the book knows the ending to this story.
way overdue...the markets will now take in the fact that Fukushima is now melting down.
watch crossess
could someone please explain to me how a hastily "engineered" concrete entombment will work along an earthquake zone?
You're obviously not familiar with the power of pray.
You got a tensile strength number on that?
embedded tension cables, allows the mass to shake and flex and still keep integrity. Ever been on a multi-level parking structure and felt it bounce?? I used to build em so I know a little about it.
Get yo ass over to Japan my son, be a hero.
not the eng. sorry. I just swung a hammer building the concrete forms when I was younger. The guy's you want is Laird's crew @ Steelform.
In my opinion - for what it is worth, tensioning is not practical over a highly radioactive building shell....who is going to snake the cables through the spaces that humans cannot enter? How are they going to do it? If any reinforcement comes into play, it will have to be some kind of fibers embedded in the dumped/pumped concrete.
the concrete will not set right in that enviroment either. My guess it would wind up as powder from too much heat. You would build panels 500 meters away and them fly them into position. Once you have an inner wall as a form and as shielding then add an outer form and poor that shit thick.
Right. Concrete has to cool as it dries. Otherwise, you end up with a pile of aggregate, that will later get wet, and set in unpredictable globs and chunks.
Gawdhelpus
My guess is they would dump in sand/lead before starting to dump concrete.
dump it on what?
Ch4 had the "advantage" of being a nice open hole to dump lead shot into. Add some sand and some boron and the core did them the favor of fluidizing and flowing out of moderation. How do they get anything into primary containment vessels that may at best be cracked?
The roof will have to come off. It is my understanding that they are tentatively planning to pump a vitreous foam of some type into either the vessels or the drywells. I am not familiar with this, but this is what I am being told by a guy I know who works for Nuclear Fuel Services. I am trying to find out about this now, since I have never heard of it.
The roof will have to come off.
Holy fucking shit..................
Does your expertise in any way extend to to estimates of human cost? Because, frankly, I'm starting to feel sick about this.
Well, I think there are ways of removing a roof remotely. The roof on these things is pretty light. Human cost? No, I cannot in any way estimate that. Having worked in reactors and with bombs at the NTS, I can tell you that most everyone I worked with took pretty good care of themselves....in that they knew their dose limits and stayed with them, for the most part. Of course, to stay employed, I have signed-off on my pad to take more than allowed, as did a lot of folks. I knew guys that would hunker down in a hot area and go to sleep, they did not care, and some of them would do so just to get fired, if they were fed up with the job and wanted to move on. Things are different now, monitoring is better, and exposure limits are way down from when I worked in the hot zones. It seemed that back in the day, the guys who came from the government sites, like Hanford and Savannah River, were more laid back when it came to exposure....they would do some of the damnedest crazy things....
Thank you, Ari.
I always enjoy reading your posts, Aristarchan.
If you have the time (and inclination), I'd guess I wouldn't be the only person who'd value any anecdotes from your time in the business.
http://www.ergaerospace.com/foamproperties/rvcproperties.htm ? Holy Pandora's Box on that roof plan. Desperate times call for desperate measures? I hope they bring in some outfit a lot more capable than TEPCO at that point.
Two words will solve this problem - super glue.
how about JB Weld...you can seal a cracked engine block wit that.
aristarchan
i have read your posts on this topic. you obviously know your sh@t. they have actually been slightly comforting.
as you know, this will take decades to become even relatively benign. in that time there could be another such magnitude quake.
doesn't that make this an impossible task?
They have a few problems that make it tougher. They sprayed water like a moron early on and now they see the error in this:
I would not worry about the water if I were them. Just pump it into the ocean. The total volume in the ocean is so large, that it is rendered safe by eventual dilution. Remember we exploded a number of bombs in the Bikini atolls in the 50's. We went back just a few years later and the ocean radiation levels were the same as back in the Carribean. The land there stays radioactive, but the ocean is fine. Lesson is that radiation on land is fairly permanent, but at sea it is quite fleeting.
Once you clear out all the water, you have to get the pumps going and you have to try and keep the place dry! Massive amounts of boron and sand must be placed all around these reactors. Any escape of nuclear fuel must be immediately contained and diluted. Time is your only ally here. They must survive the residual heat issue for another few weeks. They will need a lot of time then to slowly move all the spent fuel assemblies out of there. They require 4-6 years underwater before they can be moved to dry casks (when the residual decay heat finally falls), so just entombing it now will not work unless they have a way to later move the used fuel out into dry storage.
To me the biggest difference between this and Chernobyl (besides the massive core explosion) is all the spent fuel sitting around. You cannot just put a cap over it all and walk away - too many crazy things can happen. You have to have a 6 year plan to slowly remove all the fuel as it cools down to a level that can be dry-stored.
well i feel much better now thanks and back to my point, let's serve that up shaken not stirred
Always glad to hear thoughtful comments.
nice post
I haven't read your posts before but that was very persuasive
Thoughtful post, but I am not sure how you get the spent fuel rods out that have not completed their cool-down cycle; and getting into the area (assuming the pools are viable) is another issue. I have thought about this and have come up with no viable way....any thoughts?
A gigantic Dyson vacuum?
I'm at a loss too; I can't concur with the guy on the water spraying. They had no choice otherwise they end up with melted SFPs outside containment.
They've chosen to try to cool indefinitely and hope that they can catch a break. Only once rad levels in the immediate bldg drop low enough can they attempt anything else.
The fates were sealed when the buildings blew all to hell because they had inadequate H2 ventilation.
They were advised by GE, and received a mod notice from the NRC several years ago recommending they install the hardened H2 vent systems with igniters, but they decided not to do that.
can those things run on solar? Or would they have been paralyzed by the power outages as well?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I think the vent upgrades might have been cheaper than this cleanup.
They feed off the same power stream: grid/generators/battery backup, but also have local batteries charged from same. They would have, in all likelihood, worked.
Thanks again for your contributions and illuminations.
You are welcome, I follow yours as well.
sorry, reply meant for other guy
I would agree that this is what is going to happen to the water, by default of having no other capacitry to do anything with it.
But you are sadly entirely wrong that this will just dilute, and waft away in the currents.
Heavy metals and large cations generally have a high affinity to incorporate into clay minerals (philosilicate clay plates via Van der waals bonding) and deposit in marine sediments - very quickly and efficiently.
I assure you, that is what will have happened, when the big isotopes in seawater miraculously 'disappear' from the water column.
It'll ALL be in the sediments, and in the fishies soon after.
Thanks! Man...if I could predict earthquakes, I would be a billionaire! Future potential quakes are always a worry, especially if you end up with an unreinforced sarcophagus. The task is not impossible - and it HAS to be done, one way or the other. I mentioned in a few posts the possible use of reinforced fibers or steel fibers entrained in the concrete, I have done some research on this, and it seems feasible from a strength standpoint. A few people have mentioned heat issues with concrete, and that is true, but there are additives that can be entrained in concrete to make it less sensitive to quick-setting, and potential cracking, and from what I understand, once a base sarcophagus is in place, a layer of high strength, relatively impermeable concrete can be poured over that.
How does that square with removing the spent fuel?
Well, unfortunately. it doesn't. The spent fuel is another issue that has to be considered in the overall scheme of things. There really is no practical way to move spent fuel that has not completed its cool-down cycle. Putting it in dry-casks is not really an option, and...who can get to it anyway, right now. If they entomb, then I suspect they will try to entomb the spent rods as well, although that is a problem in a pool with water in it. I read somewhere a few years back of the potential of pumping foam into the pool to displace the water befor entombment, but I am not sure if that is a viable alternative.
If you get a chance, please help me think this through. Reactor containment vessel prevents concrete from reaching the lava. Debris prevents concrete from reaching the spent fuel pool, which may or may not be intact. The tunnels and piping are full of radioactive material in water, and seawater flows under all four turbine halls. Is that 3 million cubic feet of entombment?
We need a shell, big building, to sit over it and get some/most/all of the radioisotopes filtered.
Then it can sit there for five years. Still have to get a slick plumbing system figured out....but gotta stop the contamination up top.
The turbine buildings can be decontaminated. The main service tunnel from the reactor unit to the turbine building will be plugged, if they go for entombment. They will not entomb the turbine buildings, as they only have contamination from issues that are created in the reactor units. It is my understanding of entombment, that, depending on the combination of materials used (lead, sand, boron, sodium polyborate, spent uranium, concrete) a rule of thumb is 1/3 larger than the gamma ray absorption distance from the source of the material matrix utilized.
Got a good point there... I'll add that with fusion going on in a sacophagus would likely build a hydrogen pressure cooker that would end up exploding.
Fission.
If a fusion reaction ignites -- it really will be the Land of the Rising Sun. Briefly.
In 100 years Fukushima will a place where people come from around the world to take the healing waters, worship at the shrine of the concrete dome, and marvel at the unusual plant and animal life in the area. People will speak in reverent tones of the ancient ones who used to do daring things like eat vegetables from the fields and fish from the sea. They will all hold each other's six-fingered hands, stare soulfully into each other's three eyes, and reflect on the glory that was Japan. Over the shrine will flutter the Japanese flag, resplendent with the image of the setting sun.
Within 100 years it's very likely that USA will have at least one great earthquake (8+ richter) on the San Andreas, New Madrid, or Cascadia fault systems. I'm wondering how well USA nuclear plants will survive catastrophic earthquakes, especially if there are many continuing 6+ aftershocks for weeks later.
Mark my words!
In 5 months, in the MSM, the phrase will begin to appear,
"Japanese Boat People"
The country that doesn't export immigration...now will be en masse.
I agree
They will colonize Australia.
yeah...cept Aust has KO'ed their immigration policy.
I like the top-hat solution
So the radiation is seeping out into the sea but covering it
with cement will stop that?
They can't cover the bottom of it anymore than it is
already.
on wires:
*Markit/JMMA PMI for March falls sharply to 46.4 from 52.9
f**** me.
operative word.... "may have"
operative word.... "may have"
What will the site workers do after this situation is buried? literally.
Besides die a slow death, now that is a true CRIME.
Some fools may say they failed but they are World Superheroes, unlike US and UK army destroying another country tonight.
On a positive; for the workes who survive there will be ather ways to make $:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qORYO0atB6g&feature=relmfu
on Wed, 03/30/2011 - 19:40
#1119486
could someone please explain to me how a hastily "engineered" concrete entombment will work along an earthquake zone?
The cement dome at Chernobyl is already disintigrating, so I am guessing not very well.
In the spirit of full disclosure, I am not a cement expert, but I am also not a paid off government moron.
Is there something in the "Consolation of Philosophy" that can guide folks thru this nuclear plant crisis?
Will the radioactive chlorine get your whites REALLY white?
Here is why a giant concrete tomb will not fix the problem. Concrete suffers from cracks. Every 20-22 ft you will get an expansion crack from thermal cycling. That is usually handled with reinforcing steel or rebar. Rebar becomes exposed to oxygen through the cracks, oxidizes and swells. The swell expands the cracks and the whole mess comes apart in 75 - 100 years (or less in Brooklyn). Cracks allow fission products to escape. What do you do with a million ton concrete sarcophagus that is leaking somewhere into the ground water? Encase this mess into a larger tomb? You are much better off cleaning up the mess. Inject Sodium bentonite under the plant, dig a huge pit nearby to capture all the liquid runoff, and start the cleanup piece by piece. In ten years it will all be over and there won't any more issues. As for the wastes you remove? Send the wastes to the most useless places on earth - Manhattan and Washington DC.
I don't care if it leaks into their groundwater. Right now it is leaking into our sky.
Did the ancient egyptians build huge pyramids over their crippled nuclear reactors?
I wonder how much liability GE would assume if it were proven that their reactor had an inherant design flaw?
GE:
1.) Profits for 2010: ~14.2 Billion
2.) US Taxes Due: ~0.00
3.) Exposure to Liability for Fubarshima: see 2.
and/or "priceless"
The owners of the world never really pay for shit like this.
"Generous Electric": gifts that keep on giving!
I wonder how many more of these Genius Engineered marvels are still ticking out there?
does anything come with a 50-year warranty?
that news is good for at least 300 dow points. party on ben.
February 28, 2011
West's policy is nuclear hypocrisy: Salehi
Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi has criticized Western countries for their negative approach toward the country's nuclear program.
Salehi made the remarks during a meeting with Japanese Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs Bessho Koro in Tehran on Saturday, IRNA reported.
Salehi said that despite the country's constructive cooperation with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Western governments are pursuing double-standard policies toward Iran's nuclear energy program.
He also censured the West for adopting a different approach in regard to Israel, which possesses a nuclear arsenal and refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).
Salehi also stated that the Islamic Republic is ready to hold more talks with the P5+1 group — Britain, China, France, Russia, the United States, and Germany.
The Japanese deputy foreign minister said Japan supports Iran's nuclear energy program and added that Iran has the right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes.
He went on to say that Tokyo is determined to develop ties with Tehran.
Salehi and Koro also discussed the latest regional developments and called for the expansion of cooperation between the two countries in all spheres.
On Friday, the IAEA once again confirmed the peaceful nature of Iran's nuclear energy program, reaffirming that the program has never been diverted to nuclear weapons production.
Iran is a signatory to the NPT and thus has the right to enrich uranium to produce fuel.
This is from Teheran times last month
If there are any Orthodox Jews viewing this, there is the key to these events....and during Purim, no less.
He who prepareth the pit, shall fall in it.
This is it! This is the answer!
The Persians want a nuclear power plant! And it so happens ... that the Japanese have an extra one! ( Or six. ) Slightly used!
Ok, this guy has no clue, and should under no circumstances be listened to.
His intent might have been thinking of the hydration process of the cement hardening using the water. ?
Whether that is what would happen I don't know. It could all go puff ...
Hot H20 can get through anything, ask a Geochemist.
I don't know how he plans to get concrete pumped to the top of the primary and secondary containments? Dreaming I suspect.
The fact is, the reactor core melt will dilute and remain hot from decay, but if it becomes a lava it will harden into a glass with time as it dilutes, and thsu largely immobilize itself ... well, ... until the glass devitrifies ... via hydration reaction ... and remobilizes in fine crystaline forms ... that will travel very nicely in salty water. The higher the salt level the more solutes it can accomodate and mobilise.
Salt water, especially extremely hot salt water, will destroy concrete fast - and leak like you would not believe.
Whatever they do they need to get it right first time, and 'right' constitutes long-term immobilization.
I notice no one in authoritah seems too worried about the fact that the SFP on No.2 currently can NOT be accessed, to monitor or top it up.
If it is not topped-up very soon, it will empty out completely and burn, and all this talk of encapsulation in concrete will be moot, because then they will need to cap much of the eastern central island of Japan with concrete.
They need to get the TO-DO list sorted and prioritised, very fast.
From my research till now: BORON - XENON - BORIC ACID
Insightful - the B reactor 1944
A Mysterious Failure http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7prJbv4pTyk
Fuel in the Pool (Irridated or Spent fuel) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wQ4bLt4sds
SCRAM it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vZwaMg60FM
SCRAM: 1981 ABC Nightline Interview with Chris Crawford http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0yOLKeCgwE
I wonder if instead; chambers could be excavated below the site that could receive the active mess(es) above. Chambers that might be a better and more robust containment to rely on while finally doing something about the dangerous material?
Is the stuff too unstable to handle a fall far enough to accomplish this? A similar excavation was incorporated in the Troll Natural Gas Platform project.
Concrete entombment somehow appears impossible despite the major project I theorized above.
link on the basics: http://www.rockmass.net/ap/61_Palmstrom&Skogheim_on_Kalsto_piercing.pdf
Thoughts?
I do think concrete is possible and in fact I think it's the only solution. If they could do it at Chernobyl they can do it there.
I think I heard that the Russians first poored in Boric Acid and sand before the concrete. Get some heavy lifting helicopters and bloody start the bloody project!
Michio Kaku on Japan's Nuke Crisis & Chernobyl Option - Last Word http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obK4zISRgyoBloody fucking start somehting indeed!
I envision entombment requiring the placement of forms and concrete reinforcement in advance of the pouring which would seem exceedingly prohibitive given the labor intensive aspects of this work combined with radiation levels and other hazards. Also, the site just does not look like a concrete box could be built around it to contain the effluent and also somehow be able to release the pressures building inside. From what I have read, simply putting a glob of concrete on this right after some temporary stabilization measure is perform is awfully problematic. Even compared to doing nothing.
Thanks for your input.
You can use heavy lifting helicopters with a long cable with at the end a concrete skip like the use in construction work. But first they have to use the helicopters to poor in Boron Balls or Boric Acid with these same skips to stop any nuclear reaction. http://www.directindustry.com/prod/secatol-sas/bottom-opening-concrete-s... "labor intensive aspects" are unimportant in an emergency like this concerning the whole globe.
The labor intensive comment on my part has to do with mitigating the up limit of the Fukushima 50. But I really like your concepts. I view this as a construction project with the added ness of maltempered various things having lasers on their heads. And potential societal upheival not seen before.
But mostly a construction project, optimistically of course.
Build chambers with lots of lead at the bottom. If it melts through into the chambers it will melt the lead and form a lead solution that dilutes the radioactive mass. If there is 1700 tons of uranium, then put 1700 tons of lead pellets underneath in the flow chambers and we can cut the concentration of fisile material in half as it melts the lead and goes into solution.
the guy who said retail should just keep dollar cost averaging into the market is now an expert on nuclear containment?
this is the beginning of the third WEEK of someone or others saying "japan is going to entomb the site. not japan. "bloomberg" here!
same drill every time. now, japan has pulled in two huge corporate french kissers and sarkozy to represent "The Suck-urity Council." it makes no fuku-ing diff what bloomberg says, or "reports". as far as slewie knows, there are 4 reactors goins ape-shit.
when the japanese say what they are gonna try, when, and why, THEN we shall know what they are gonna do, when, and why. i spent 22 months in the US military. legally required to check the company bulletin board 2X/day, enless "Exempt from Duty, which slewie was, except for a bit over 4 months. mostly training. Basic, Mil. Police School. and so on. pretty interesting stuff.
you people sound like a bunch of goobers and hillbillies in their seventh week of Basic, unable to detach from the Rumor Mill. i know that's not very flattering, but has any JAPANESE said one word about entombment? this IS CSp5 slewie, and i'm not gonna listen to one more fuking word, here, in my hooch. one more fukin word and we'll see how you like "rumors" with yer head in the fuking latrine.
any questions?
hitting the sour mash a bit hard for a weeknight?
Immediately below the reactors and turbine halls is sea level and igneous/metamorphic rock. There's no point in excavating.
Educate me: the World Trade center excavation required the construction of a large bathtub in essence due to the surrounding materials. Can this sort of casing not be made beneath the surface?
yes it can.
Excellent. And lots of exotic building materials too.
You are on to something.
you can make a huge cassion that encircles the reactor complex to keep water out. then dig channels through the rock...line with lead...fill with nitrogen gas, and cover the whole complex with millions of tons of concrete.
Years. Thousands of men.
water, there is water that would have to be pumped out...and pressure is the issue
After they see this thing through to the worst possible outcome they will declare victory and pat themselves of the back for a job well done...and then proptly raise the safe radiation levels for the general population to 10,000 times the old standard and tell everyone they are dropping the ALARA concept (as low as reasonably allowable) to go to the never mind concept (means don't ask. Everyone is fucked).
That's known, in technical parlance, as the FUBAR Option, named after Snafu Fubar, a accident prone volatile chemicals scientist from Moldovia.
On Google maps, if you follow the road from the reactors it leads into the village of Ono. How poetic.
entomb it now. re-entomb it every ten years when it cracks. use cassions and dig deep channels underneath. Put lots of lead in these flow channels so if it does melt through it will melt the lead and the lead will dilute the uranium and plutonium to below critical levels.
Lead readily oxidises and evaporates when molten (why lead smelters are such a health problem).
If it is not an air-tight containment and oxygen inert, you just made it airborne.
Ok..fill the flow channels with lead and pressure positive nitrogen gas. They are going to be at least 50 feet under the floor of the reactor...and the whole damn thing is going to be covered with a concrete and lead pyramid. I think we can keep the oxygen out.
Do you have any experience in mining, tunneling, or civil engineering?
He has experience saying shit on internet bulletin boards. Same thing.
Yep! So Boric Accid, Lead and Sand and finish it of with Concrete.
They gotto start as soon as possible! Get the bloody airforce in!
Why don't we have THESE types of Pictures to look at Tyler?
Could you find one that you can zooooom in on like this one?
http://gigapan.org/viewGigapanFullscreen.php?auth=033ef14483ee899496648c2b4b06233c
Find a couple pictures of the reactor site with a couple of THOSE pictures, and many questions would be answered.
And with the money we are giving the Miltary, Don't you think EVERY person from the Joint Chiefs to the President have seen a zoomed picture. If they have the satelites taking pictures of licence plates on cars.... Doncha think they would have snapped a few by now? For national and fleet safety reasons??
is that the chimp sitting next to the emperor?