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Joe Saluzzi On The Stock Market And The Broader Economy

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And no, no discussion of HFT, predatory algos or flash orders. Tune in for a broader, comprehensive market analysis.




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Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:11 | Link to Comment RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Another classic post from Spock (aka Rasputin) at Pru Bear Chat:

 

"Without resorting to a bunch of past-tense "snapshot" fancy charts and
graphs of various "M's", and with minimum verbiage and NO links for a
change, please allow this Vulcan to lay out the simple case for
why--and how--the Fed and Uncle Sugar will continue to re-blow asset
bubbles, especially in housing and stocks.

First, the "Why":

Because
the Fed is on the hook for TRILLIONS of fiatscos of toxic, dead trash.
Much of it real estate related in the form of MBS,
CDOs/Squareds/Cubeds. Furthermore, the Fed has ALSO flung plenty of
fiat to other securitizations such as those for motorcycle loans,
credit card debt and student debt, among other junk

And please
don't forget that the Fed has also backstopped the entire money market
sector, and Uncle Sugar is NOT ONLY in the mortgage finance business in
a big way with the nationalization of Fannie, Freddie, FHLBs and the
pumping up of Ginnie (to the tune of SEVEN TRILLION FIATSCOS), but also
is in the auto manufacturing business too (with the nationalization of
GM and Chrysler).

(Spock): So, clearly the Fed and Uncle
have a vested interest in re-inflating asset prices, especially houses
and stocks, as the Fed is on the hook in a major way for the
backstopping of these sectors. Therefore, it is in the Fed's best
interests to re-sky housing, keep the stock markets and money markets
levitated, and otherwise keep the sheeple spending and speculating in
order to EVER have the hope of dumping the toxic trash they have taken
in--either back to the Wall Street gamblers from which they received
the gunk, or on to Uncle Sugar's lap.

In addition, Uncle needs
the asset bubbles to reflate so that his houses continue to
"appreciate", the lambs become wild speculators again, and his tax
revenues rise.

Now for the "How":

By hook or crook, by
currency debasement, by Uncle becoming the "mortgage provider and
landlord of last resort" for ten million homedebting sheeple, by
continued and increased "Cash for X" programs, by more and more
"Algo/Igor/Robo" action in the stock markets, by punishing "Cash
Hoarding Seditionists" and taxing their PRINCIPAL if necessary to
compel them to spend and speculate, by monkeying with the tax laws to
give more incentive to go into debt for commercial real estate
projects, by Uncle becoming the "employer of last resort" and creating
make-work jobs to keep sheeple occupied and able to make some kind of
monthly payments for McMansions and McAutos", and by more "Stimulus
Packages" of upwards of THOUSANDS OF FIATSCOS of direct payments to
lambs, with the explicit orders to "Go crazy, folks, go crazy!!!"

(Spock):
And the above list is by no means exhaustive, rather this Vulcan is
attempting to keep his commitment not to assault the reader with too
many words to describe the simple premise under which the Fed and Uncle
are now operating:

Inflate AND die. (Translation: Inflate
asset bubbles until the next, even greater blow off top and collapse
and reflation "Convulsion".)

(Spock Conclusion): It would be
a grave mistake to believe that the Fed and Uncle are incapable of
inciting another series of asset bubbles, aided and abetted by the
gambling animal spirits that dwell in the sheeple, and which can be
re-ignited with perhaps minimum effort.

And if not minimum effort, then maximum coercion.

The
Fed needs the asset bubbles to unwind its bloated balance sheet. Uncle
(and state and local governments too) needs the asset bubbles to
maintain power and to keep tax revenue flowing.

Therefore, they
will stop at NOTHING to accomplish their goals, even if it means
trashing the U.S. fiatsco, collapsing the Treasury market (no problem
there, because the Fed will gladly step up and buy every single debt
instrument proffered by Uncle Sugar, thereby keeping interest rates
low), and Uncle growing even LARGER and more pervasive--as hard as that
might be to imagine.

(Spock): This isn't about math, it's about power. Survival. "Wash, Rinse, Repeat". "Convulsions". Sheeple-steering. Control.

"Hard
math" (as poor, deluded, "realists" like Denninger are finding out, to
their chagrin) has been tossed out the the window at the fortieth floor.

Indeed, it's a miracle they've gotten this far. Thirty-eight years and counting since the abandonment of Bretton Woods.

And
now that they have indoctrinated two generations of sheeple worldwide
to accept fiat currency/fractional reserve lending/central
banking/securitization/derivatives as absolute "gospel", we are ALL
doomed to endless cycles of "Infinite Fiat".

And right now the world's central banks and governments are kicking up the "Money Machine" into high gear.

And the lambs will fall into line and go berserk with spending and speculation...if given the proper prodding.

Woe unto he who cannot see the desperate motivation of TPTB to re-blow bubbles and their awesome power and capability to do so."

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:23 | Link to Comment Project Mayhem
Project Mayhem's picture

ahaha "Uncle Sugar"  lol 

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:46 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:48 | Link to Comment SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

RT, thanks for sharing that.  I agree completely that no effort will be spared, anything is possible, in this greatest reinflation effort in history.  It is of course all about power and control.

"Therefore, they will stop at NOTHING to accomplish their goals..."

Absolutely correct.  Everything is at stake; everything.  There is no "quit" in them, no self-control, no stepping back from the brink.  If they do nothing, if they stop trying to reinflate, they lose. They have no choice but to follow this path to wherever it leads.  It's not academic, and it never was.  This might be an economic event, but first and foremost it is a political event.  Economics is about what gets made, but politics decides how the output gets distributed, who gets to skim from the stream of economic activity. 

My disagreement with Denninger (and Mish) has always been their inability to imagine things happening that were outlandishly, overtly wrong, illegal, immoral, etc.  Neither of them seem to be able to allow themselves to accept that a system as corrupt as this one can exist; Denninger constantly demands in his posts: "How long are you going to stand for this?"  He simply cannot believe that such outwardly, openly illegal actions are undertaken daily by this Fed and government.  This inability may speak to their (KD and Mish) own personal inner sense of right and wrong, but it nevertheless IMO casts doubt on their prognostications.

We are living in a criminal conspiracy and we are the marks.



Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:12 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:13 | Link to Comment taraxias
taraxias's picture

Denninger is right, America hasn't put the remote down yet.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 21:06 | Link to Comment capitalisa
capitalisa's picture

Seriously, do any of you guys actually talk to people?  Read anything but ZeroHedge (which I love)?  People have put down the remotes (geez, I'm sick of the put-downs) and are protesting in the streets and town halls.  It's not just about the health care bill, it's about protesting the corruption and desecration of the Constitution.  All of us out here aren't idiots just glued to the TV for Pete's sake.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 21:47 | Link to Comment Thurifer
Thurifer's picture

"People have put down the remotes and are protesting in the streets and town halls"

 

Not to mention entire PALLETS of ammunition are being sold from Wal-Marts within minutes of arriving....I'm just sayin'...

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 20:07 | Link to Comment eggy123
eggy123's picture

Doesn't matter at this point. If they haven't figured it out yet, chances are it's too late to change things anyway.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:11 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Bingo. Extremely well said.

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 12:27 | Link to Comment peterr (not verified)
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:16 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 02:49 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:54 | Link to Comment NRGTDR
NRGTDR's picture

Agreed. GOOGLE: Operation Northwoods for example. I would imagine that they are ready to go live with something huge next. This scheme can't go on too much longer without a great distraction. Expect the unexpected.

On last aside, let's recall this: On September 10, 2001, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld held a press conference to disclose that over $2,000,000,000,000 in Pentagon funds could not be accounted for. Rumsfeld stated: "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions." According to a report by the Inspector General, the Pentagon cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 12:42 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 20:48 | Link to Comment digalert
digalert's picture

What happens when foreigners don't want to play anymore?

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/denninger/denninger082209.html

 

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 23:54 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 01:39 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 12:50 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 09:52 | Link to Comment SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

My simple response to your comment is this: many of us have been complaining about government corruption-via-money-control for a long time.  The central bank is THE enabler of big government.  I believe this crisis will result in central banking and government "management" of the economy being revealed as the fraud that they are.

When "the few" complain it is all too simple to ignore them.  The numbers are growing rapidly, though, and the crisis is far from averted.  The Austrian school has been expecting this event for decades, and has the documentation to prove it.  The message is spreading.

Crisis presents opportunity for change.  The liberty that is my birthright is closer within my grasp than it has ever been in my 50+ years of life.  You can give up if you want to.  What a waste.

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 12:41 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 12:27 | Link to Comment peterr (not verified)
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 23:54 | Link to Comment ghostfaceinvestah
ghostfaceinvestah's picture

Agreed, KD's post are very well written, as he is very good putting the numbers together.  But all that does for me is quantify how much money printing will need to take place.

Look at this post:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1362-Why-Recovery-Calls-Are-...

He shows a graph of consumer credit contracting by $100B and counting, and 2.5T outstanding.

Does he realize the Fed is going to print $1.25T for agency MBS alone, and another $200B for agency debt?  So just to prop up the GSE debt market that foreign investors have walked away from, Bernanke is going to print the equivalent of over half the outstanding consumer credit in this country.  In a year.

Add in AIG, Bear, Citi, BofA, TALF, etc, and Bernanke will have printed the equivalent of the entire consumer credit in this country.

And this is nothing stopping him from printing more.  He could literally monetize air.  He doesn't need an excuse, because no one is asking for one.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:19 | Link to Comment Printfaster
Printfaster's picture

More and more creative cash for trash programs.  First we had cash for BS and Lehman, TARP, then AIG CDSs, then cash for first time homebuyers, then cash for clunkers.

Now what?  Will someone pay me cash for old light bulbs?  I will sell all mine for a $1000 each to eliminate the possibility that someone might use them instead of CFLs.

Then of course I will offer my old CFLs for $1000 to rid the environment of mercury.

 

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:35 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

RT, you make me shake and sweat with drooling anticipation!

Denninger is lost for sure in bright light reality.

All systems go. You were serious right!?! Lol

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:27 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 20:14 | Link to Comment andrew123
andrew123's picture

Can you prlease provide a link to the prudent bear chat site?

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 23:47 | Link to Comment ghostfaceinvestah
ghostfaceinvestah's picture

Very well said, this is exactly what is going on.

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 02:36 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 05:53 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 12:57 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:12 | Link to Comment Howard_Beale
Howard_Beale's picture

TD, any chance you have a clip of your talk with Pimm Fox last week? Word is you talked HFT aftermarket Thurday.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:16 | Link to Comment CD
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:19 | Link to Comment Howard_Beale
Howard_Beale's picture

I did a search at BB and couldn't find it...thanks so much.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:58 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:14 | Link to Comment vs18
vs18's picture

There are links to it in the forums..

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:01 | Link to Comment . . .
. . .'s picture

Saluzzi is somewhat off on mortgages, and doesn't go far enough on cash for clunkers since it hurts the poor.

1.  He says people try to pay their mortgage before other debts, so this is indicative of financial distress.  The main determinant of defaults is whether a borrower is underwater.  People who invest in mortgages thinking a borrower will necessarily pay their mortgage before other debt is nuts.  For example, if a borrower has no net equity in their house, and needs a car to commute to work, I'd bet they pay their car loan before their mortgage.

2.  Cash for clunkers hurts the poor because it reduces the supply of used cars.  This increases the price of used cars, and so, is effectively a regressive tax on the poor.

 

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:14 | Link to Comment Printfaster
Printfaster's picture

Yes, but in addition to depriving the poor of motor transportation, will drive them to using buses and public transit.

What a boon for the transit workers union and SEIU.  More campaign funds to stoke more deprivation of liberty.

 

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 20:13 | Link to Comment eggy123
eggy123's picture

Great point I hadn't though of that. It's a power curve - feeding upon itself.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 22:36 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:14 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:13 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 19:37 | Link to Comment . . .
. . .'s picture

The fact that Saluzzi was talking about prime mortgages is irrelevant.  Negative equity is one of the most significant determinants of defaults in prime, as well as other mortgages.  Further, many prime mortgages have negative equity; the number is increasing, and prime mortgages are far more likely to default if they are underwater.  Fitch warned about this earlier this year; link below.  And there have been various articles about this.

http://www.housingwire.com/2009/03/24/fitch-warns-on-prime-rmbs-cites-negative-equity/

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 23:37 | Link to Comment ghostfaceinvestah
ghostfaceinvestah's picture

You are correct, the equity, or lack thereof, is the main determinant of defaults.

You are also correct in that people will pay their cable bill, credit cards, etc before they pay an underwater mortgage.  Not in every case, but in many cases.  And this behavior is becoming more prevalent as the stigma attached with defaulting on a mortgage lessens.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 23:09 | Link to Comment JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

You can't drive your house but you can sleep in your car.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:18 | Link to Comment ReamUs
ReamUs's picture

Mighty Whitey vs. Mr. T:

http://www.crashx.com

He don't suffer fools - he just pities them, FOOL! :) Anyway, it's an article about the intolerance of the pseudo-intellectual left and the bigotry aimed at the ever convenient white male strawman/scapegoat. Has nothing to do with this article - but my site gets ZEROtraffic.com. So click in, spread the word, all that crap. Gonna go check on my ribs now.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:25 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:28 | Link to Comment Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

Saluzzi is a bad-ass. He seems the kind of guy who would smoke a box of Ref Marlboro's drink a bottle of Jack Daniels, and then go shoot some traffic signs with a semi-automatic weapon. I like him; and only wish he was one of the 40 contributors to ZH; maybe he is.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:35 | Link to Comment ReamUs
ReamUs's picture

Comparing styles, Saluzzi is Project Mayhem.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:41 | Link to Comment Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

nope; PM is Daniel Ivandjiiski

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:50 | Link to Comment ReamUs
ReamUs's picture

Bah, National Enquirer says Daniel is founder of this site, and currently nailing Edward's former mistress. 

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:03 | Link to Comment deadhead
deadhead's picture

i don't think daniel is a founder...just saying

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:39 | Link to Comment ReamUs
ReamUs's picture

Don't MAKE me discredit you. My mommy and daddy were important people and gave me an important position at an important paper. Question me at your peril, bitch. It doesn't matter what YOU think now, does it?

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:23 | Link to Comment taraxias
taraxias's picture

I have it from a good source he is nailing Michelle Caruso-Cabrera.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:56 | Link to Comment ReamUs
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:59 | Link to Comment Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

i'd tap that

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 00:05 | Link to Comment Rusty_Shackleford
Rusty_Shackleford's picture

Sweet.

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 12:27 | Link to Comment peterr (not verified)
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 17:43 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

The Fed is in a war of binary proportions. Do to little and us rats sell it off and do too much and the dollar becomes the new peso.

They may think they can win but they will fuck it up somewhere down the line.

They might even get war powers to do with what they want as most of what they have started is against many laws and regs.

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 10:42 | Link to Comment peterr (not verified)
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:22 | Link to Comment Andrei Vyshinsky
Andrei Vyshinsky's picture

You'd think that the interviewer in this piece might have had the common courtesy to have pronounced the "zz" in Joe's name in the Italian fashion rather than in the tasteless, Americanized way in which he did. Made him appear the real rube.

Saluzzi threaded the needle nicely here, making the necessary distinctions between trading and the economy. It is every bit the by-product of a self-interested media that the so-called "recovery" enjoys the marketing currently given it, something not unlike the "success" accorded to the Bush/Petraeus troop "surge" in Iraq a while ago. Perhaps as much as the "surge's" outcome was the consequence of a payoff of Sunni militias that could have been worked by 30,000 bursars instead of soldiers, our so-called "recovery" rests on similar quicksand and will soon go up in smoke as has the "surge".

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 18:56 | Link to Comment Tripps
Tripps's picture

agree with everything joe says...............

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 19:10 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 21:36 | Link to Comment Rollerball
Rollerball's picture

I like the analogy, but you forgot to mention the evergreen queen's RF frequency jamming (of) workers' IFR, causing a verigo-ish JFK, Jr syndrome.  It's been renamed "Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus".

http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/handle/10113/131  

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 19:14 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 02:59 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 19:16 | Link to Comment Chippewa Partners
Chippewa Partners's picture

We should send some trades toward Themis.....thanks Joe!

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 19:44 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 20:55 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 21:37 | Link to Comment Apocalypse Now
Apocalypse Now's picture

An honest man.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 22:03 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 22:29 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 00:38 | Link to Comment Assetman
Assetman's picture

Yeah, my only fear is that the Fed has gone too far already.  And it appears they have no intention whatsoever of stopping.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 22:41 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 23:46 | Link to Comment ghostfaceinvestah
ghostfaceinvestah's picture

Agreed, this is also what is driving the growing gap between rich and poor in this country.  We are becoming a banana republic through endless money printing to stave off each crisis.

the Fed will probably print another $1T in the next four months, between all their programs.  That money will go into the markets, private equity, etc, as the Fed intends.  their hope is that money will be spent on something, anything, that can recreate another bubble.  Maybe it will be tech again.  Who knows.  Maybe we will just have a stock market bubble a la 1987 without any real reason.

 

Whatever the case, i don't see this bubble deflating for years, either, 2011/2012 at the earliest.

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 23:12 | Link to Comment Sqworl
Sqworl's picture

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/90227fdc-900d-11de-bc59-00144feabdc0.html

Dr. Doom get's overwatered....vacillation give me U, a V and now W?

Sun, 08/23/2009 - 23:16 | Link to Comment Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

T he global economy is starting to bottom out 

i stopped reading after this

Roubini is a sell-out and a fucking GS dog.

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 00:17 | Link to Comment Intuition
Intuition's picture

It seems clear that large groups are wholly incapable of manifesting moral conscience. They do not see, or cannot compute, right and wrong.

 

This entire national experiment, going back to 1776, was based on the individual and his conception of right and wrong. Now that the individual has been co-opted by absurdly powerful groups, the individual's conscience no longer retains any sort of power in the face of the corrupt organizations which control our lives.

 

What is the solution?

Mon, 08/24/2009 - 05:30 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 06:47 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 12:27 | Link to Comment peterr (not verified)
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 17:57 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!