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John Williams Talks To BNN About The "Great Hyperinflationary Collapse"

Tyler Durden's picture


Any interview that starts off with John Williams saying "Eventually it is going to be a hyperinflationary great depression" is sure to be controversial. While not necessarily news to those who subscribe to the editor's newsletter, sometime we wish that Blackhawk Ben was among them, because despite his 100% confidence that rates will never do the kind of move that they exhibited in the past two days, they, well, did. To quote Williamss, who actually keeps track of the US economy as if it were a GAAP audited corporation: "The annual deficit is running $4-5 trillion a year, that includes the Y/Y change in the NPV of unfunded liabilities... There is no political will to deal with this." The catalyst is well-known: "When you see panic selling of the US dollar, that's when you have to be really careful. But what's already been done with the dollar has spiked oil prices, and other commodity prices." On the question of why Bernanke would not be able to pull off what Volcker did in the early 1980s, Williams' explanation for why this time it is different, mostly focuses on the size of the US trade and budget deficits, which are not even remotely comparable on both an absolute and relative basis. Most specifically what consumers should do in the post-apocalypse world, Williams is not too optimistic. Ironically, he notes that Zimbabwe in its hyperinflation may have been lucky in that it had the dollar to fall back on in the black market, and now every market. However the US does not have that facility, and this "will get very difficult when food starts disappearing from shelves." Having goods for storage and barter would be critical. However, there may be a snag...

It appears that Mountain House, which is one of the better purveyors of freeze dried food and holds over 30 servings and last for 20 years because they are packed with nitrogen rather than oxygen, is now sold out of all #10 cans -link.

And for those who go to NitroPak, which sells these products, they have the following message:

***CURRENT INVENTORY UPDATE*** There is currently EXTREMELY high demand for all of our Mountain House foods nationwide due to current economic uncertainty and inflation fears. With this increase in demand, our food order processing times have increased also. As Mountain House’s leading distributor, we are receiving huge shipments weekly to fill our customer orders. We are shipping as quickly as we can. Your charge card will not be charged-up until we are ready to process your order. Thank you for your understanding and patience! Harry R Weyandt President

It appears that the battle lines have already been drawn, and the cheap optionality is gradually being eliminated. At this point the best the world can do is hope that Williams is wrong.

Full BNN interview with John Williams (after the jump):

h/t Robert


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Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:07 | 793578 Malcolm Tucker
Malcolm Tucker's picture

Sarah Palin on the Economy...enjoy :)


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:12 | 793593 deepsouthdoug
deepsouthdoug's picture

Sorry, can't listen to Palin for 5 minutes. 

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:17 | 793614 Malcolm Tucker
Malcolm Tucker's picture

lol I don't blame you. It's the same horrified fascination i have with watching a train derailing...

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 19:57 | 794365 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture
The "Great Hyperinflationary Collapse"


This guy sure knows how to make an idiot of himself, now documented for eternity.

Lets do some pre-school math. The US has how much debt? Around 100% of GDP. Lets assume you are a paranoid anti-government conspiracy theorist - so lets be generous and make it 150% of GDP.

Iceland had how much debt? 700% of GDP.

Did Iceland get into hyperinflation? Not at all - and now its economy is growing again.

Anyone who thinks the US cannot print US dollars to print their way out of debt or cannot default in other ways, with a measly one year's US productivity of debt is kidding themselves. Iceland of all places was able to do it, and they are not the center of the financial world, the Krona is not the reserve currency of the world and Iceland has no atomic bombs and a strong military force either - just a few erratic volcanos.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 20:36 | 794425 Cindy_Dies_In_T...
Cindy_Dies_In_The_End's picture


Real simple dude:

When the Icelandic bank failed, the British and Dutch governments stepped in to repay their citizens who had deposits in the Icelandic bank. When they in turn, demanded their money back from Iceland, the people said "no".


Um, who exactly steps in and pays OUR deposits when the US TBTF fail?




That is just one of many differences.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 16:16 | 796728 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture


You appear to have missed my point:

  • the US still prints its own money, and all its debt is denominated in USD

[Considering how big and central this point is it must have taken quite some effort to miss it :-) ]

Greece does not print its own money - the ECB does. Ireland does not print its own money, the ECB does.

The US can only default on its USD denominated debt if the printers run out of ink.

Ireland and Greece can default very easily: if they cannot earn enough hard euros, plus interest, plus interest's interest, etc. it's game over. Those euros are kept hard as per France's and Germany's interest.

You dont even have to use your brain to understand it. Just check US CDS prices against Greece's and Ireland's CDS prices. What do you see when you compare them?

(and nothing but the cricket chirp.)

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 16:49 | 796866 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture


Um, who exactly steps in and pays OUR deposits when the US TBTF fail? [...]

I guess we need to go back to economics kindergarten. Do you realize that 'your deposit' of USD is simply a few bits set in various computers, which computers are owned by US banks and by the Fed?

Do you think it will be hard for them to keep those bits constant at your current "$585" value, regardless of what investors in other countries do or dont do?

The problem Iceland had was that after the 2008 crash its banks sat on ~700% of GDP debt, denominated in euros and dollars, not in Iceland's own currency. Iceland could not print dollars and euros (and they could not reliably control the eruption of their volcanos either, to use them as a blackmail tool) so Iceland had a big problem.

(Ireland and Greece has a similar problem as well - and they don't even have volcanos.)

This latest "the US will be unable to print USD and will default" line of right-wing argument is beyond comical. Is it really that hard to sometimes ... think? I just sit here laughing - and I wholeheartedly welcome you as a counterparty to my trades.



Thu, 12/09/2010 - 20:56 | 794458 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

Actually your numbers are wrong.  Lets do the math:


US Govt debt : US$13.8 trn

Municipal Govt debt: US$2.85 trn

Social Security unfunded:  US$14.7trn (a lot of which is due in the next 5-10yrs)

Medicare liability unfunded : US77.4trn

Prescription Drug liability unfunded : US19.5trn


US GDP : US$14.6trn

How is an economy worth US$14.6trn going to fund liabilities of US$128.25 trn


FYI I have not included GSE debt or Govt Guaranteed bank debt cos i don't want any disagreements on actual vs contingent liabilities


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:25 | 794517 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

The US doesn't pimp yield any more, rather hopium.

Everyone is waiting for the US 'consumer' to get back to work. The world is in for a long wait.

The establishment will monetize as it has for a long time (since Vietnam War) and everyone will drink the hopium. People have been buying into the utopia- fantasies of industrial mass- production since 1750, why not buy into some Hollywood for a while longer?

BTW, Williams' basic premise is wrong. One cause of Zimbabwe's (and Weimar's and Hungary's and Brasil's, etc.) hyperinflation was the presence of a currency alternate to the national security in circulation. Zim had the Zim dollar, the US dollar and rand. Weimar had sterling and the goldmark, Hungary had the florint and the dollar as did Brasil as an alternate. Peeps sell the local buck @ any price to get the black market alternate ...

Hyperinflation is taking place now in China not in the US. Price rises of some consumer goods is not hyperinflation.

Central bank issuers cannot create enough funds to offset debt nor do excess reserves represent anything other than excess costs to the banks that hold them. Don't believe me, look @ the gold market!

The dollars 'created' do not appear in circulation or endure but are destroyed in liquidity/currency traps by highly- leveraged balance sheets of insolvent asset markets.




Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:40 | 794542 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:56 | 794581 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

Read this.

Inflation is taking place in China and EM because they are still attempting to "peg" themselves to the dollar.  Freedom of capital flows mean that all the money that the Fed printed has flowed out to health countries, making them like.. well.. like the US before it blew up.  Hyperinflation will take place in the US.  Its a matter of when.  Hyperinflation is NOT an mathematical economic phenomena.  It is a psychological response to unsustainable economic conditions.  Most people forget Economics is a social science based on human behavior.  Its not about the production gap, Taylor's rule.  There are circumstances when hyperinflation can exist with full employment.  We are fast approaching such a circumstance.  The causes of hyperinflation are always the same.  Relentless monetisation of debt.  Either QE3 or QE4 will be the trigger for this to occur.  And there will be QE3 and QE4.. and so on so forth.  I have outlined why.  Tell me what you think.


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:35 | 794850 jakethesnake76
jakethesnake76's picture

Yep i am always concerned when people think that bad behaviour and business practice can go on forever . And i liked yer take.. eventually there won't be a big enough fire extingusher to put out a fire with gasoline being sprayed on it ....

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:53 | 794862 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

That guys a fucking moron. They can't break the peg, they funded the manufacturing complex on cheap yuan .... The banks would get monkey hammered.

They are on the other side of a 25 year credit orgy in the USA. Securitization market = cheap credit = ninja loans = house =sheeple = 2nd mortgage = big screen = river boat = 2nd home = big screen .... = Boom.......

Who's on the other side of that epic credit/debt gang~bang..?


QE~ 4.0, book it.



Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:23 | 794970 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

Guess who owns more US Treasuries than China....the Federal Reserve.  And China can walk out if they choose to.. There will be pain no doubt.. but better than getting screwed.  Why do you think think they are beginning to trade for basic commodities in RMB?  I suggest you take a good look around the world.  Things are moving, slowly but surely.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:55 | 794892 dehdhed
dehdhed's picture

The dollars 'created' do not appear in circulation or endure but are destroyed in liquidity/currency traps by highly- leveraged balance sheets of insolvent asset markets.

so if they do pomo to infinity does all those newly created dollars vanish after the fed buys the bonds?   geesh, what a rip-off ... must be using disappearing ink, no wonder bonds are tanking, no one wants to front run the fed if all they get in exchange is dollars that disappear.   it's not printing money, they just digitally credit accounts ... it's not hyperinflation, your dollars just disappear.

next they'll say it isn't even dollars, it's just numbers on a computer screen.  although it's still possible to trade the number 1400 for an ounce of gold, i bet it won't be long before numbers on a computer screen become worthless too.

my advice is exchange your digital wealth, which will be lost someday, and keep stacking.


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:02 | 794954 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

When the Fed buys bonds, and is able to hold that bond indefinitely, it is not creating money; it is simply an asset swap on a balance sheet.  Without the Fed, those bonds could have been exchanged for money in the open market if the bondholder had wanted the dollars instead.  A dollar bond can be exchanged into a dollar bill instantaneously.

QE2 simply allows our government to replace the lost treasury demand from China, and allows the US to issue debt, nearly interest free.  All interest earned by the Fed on those bonds is returned to the Treasury at year end. 

QE2 is not inflationary, despite the protests from all the green bean wingnuts around here. A simple glance at the DXY over the past few weeks will validate that. 


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:25 | 794974 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

Seriously, do you read what you write.  Where do you think the money raised from the Treasury is going to?  INTO CIRCULATION.  They use it to pay federal salaries, buy military goods, spend on bridges and pork-barrel projects, etc.  Unless you tell me they just keep the money in the bank.  WAKE UP.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 05:43 | 794981 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

In terms of money supply, please explain the difference between a bond and a dollar. 

To your points:  The bank does keep the cash in reserves.  It is just sitting there. Had the bank wanted to create cash to lend, it could have exchanged that bond for a dollar at any point in the open markets instantaneously.  A US bond and a dollar are basically identical.   

But banks don't want any more cash because the velocity of money is nearly zero. The cash is, indeed, just sitting there with nowhere to go.   

Have you ever wondered why the bankers were quiet during QE1, but openly critical of QE2?  Remember the open letter from all those Republicans a few weeks ago?  QE2 doesn't do anything for the banks - which, of course, is the only time you'll read full page criticisms in our national newspapers, spearheaded by angry Republicans.  

Apparently, if there is no advantage for the banks, then there is no advantage at all.  

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 09:27 | 795196 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

You are so full of bullshit it must be leaking out of every orifice in your body.

And you still didn't answer his question . . . but instead provided nothing by psychobabble that is all you are capable of mouthing.


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 10:39 | 795298 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

He asked me two questions:

Do I read what I write?

Answer: yes.

Second question:

Where do you think the money raised from the Treasury is going?

I can only assume this is the question you're referring to, and I answered it thoroughly both above and below this post.  Do I need to state the obvious: Money raised by the Treasury goes to all sorts of fucking stuff.  

But QE2 has no influence on that, nor does it have any influence on the money supply.  The money that touches the Fed in QE2 is already part of the money supply - those treasuries have already been purchased, and those dollars are already in circulation; it is simply an accounting gimmick that allows us to borrow money from ourselves at zero per cent.

I repeat again and again:  QE2 does not affect money supply, at all.

You should educate yourself before you tell others they are full of shit.  If you don't believe me, do some simple research on the internet - Google is your friend. 


Mon, 12/13/2010 - 02:10 | 801077 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

Look, I don't even know why I bother to talk to someone like you, but if just to educate other readers in the blog, here it is. 


QE2 create money.  Why?  Simple.  It is the expansion of the Federal Reserve balance sheet, whose liabilities are, to a the large extent, base money.  What is the dollar?  It is an IOU issued by the Federal Reserve backed by the faith of the US goverment.  Now, how can you say the money is already in existence?  The Fed, in the action of monetisation of Treasuries (to the layman, BUYS Treasuries) it creates an additional asset in its balance sheet.  On the flipside, there has to be a balancing item.  Have you looked at the balance sheet of the Fed? Notice the first item in the liability side?  It says CURRENCY IN CIRCULATION.  Interesting eh?  And then there are a whole lot of other stuff but the biggest other item on the Fed liabilities is (guess what), Reserve balances with Federal Reserve Banks.  That is the excess reserves that the banks are keeping with the Fed.  Now, if the Fed buys Treasuries, and is completely offset by these Reserve Balances, you can possibly say that base money has not increased.  But of course, that isn't the case.  Furthermore, evidence of M0 and M2 increases indicate that already, we are seeing the impact of the failure of the mechanism.   Funny thing abt excess reserves:  they are not mandatory.  In fact, if the banks were to start lending money out, the excess reserves would drop and the money multiplier will increase.  What happens to the Fed balance sheet then?  Well, in order to hold the same amount of assets, another category of liability will have to increase to offset the decline in reserves.  Guess what that category is?  How about Currency in Circulation?

 That is the main risk of Federal Reserve policy.  When there is mediocre pick up in lending and economic activity, these excess reserves will no longer remain in the Fed balance sheet and the "other liability" item will suddenly increase.  That item is M0.  Well, some have argued (smarter people than you clearly) that the Fed can always sell off the Treasuries it owns into the market (ie reduce Asset size, vs liability substitution), but I really doubt Bernanke will actually do that since it would be TIGHTENING monetary conditions and as we know Bernanke is Helicopter Ben after all.

You have no understanding of what is really going on and clearly, it behooves people who do to make sure you don't influence people with your propaganda based views and illogical conclusions.  Google is your friend, only if you can distinguish reality from lies.  And clearly you either cannot distinguish the logical truth from lies, or you are part of the lying propagandarists. 

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:37 | 794987 fiddler_on_the_roof
fiddler_on_the_roof's picture

You are wrong. If US Treasury issues bonds and banks/ China buy it, it is not money printing. But if FED buys from US Treasury, new money comes into the system(FED credits US Govt which spends on expenses).

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 03:35 | 795018 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture


I'm sorry to inform you, but you are wrong. I think it would behoove you to understand how the supply of money comes into existence, how it exits and the difference between monetary base and money supply.   

QE2 does not increase money supply.  Money supply is neither created nor destroyed when a bond is exchanged for a dollar, regardless of where the money came from.  Anytime the Fed wants, it can sell bonds and pull money back out of supply.  Instantaneously.  And back again.  And again.  And again.  

QE2 is simply an exchange of assets, from the bondholders savings account to their reserve account at the Fed.  It's just a transfer of an asset on a balance sheet, much like taking out a HELOC on your house.  If you convert your house to a HELOC, has your wealth been inflated?  No.  It's nothing but an accounting issue on your own personal balance sheet.  

The only difference the Fed makes in that equation is in regard to the interest expense.  If China or a bank holds the bond, the Treasury must pay them interest on it.  If the Fed holds the bond, the interest is refunded to the Treasury at year end, thereby adding nothing to our debt. 


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 03:54 | 795030 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

I understand where you are coming from.  You are referring to the balancing item in that is the reserves that banks place with the Federal Reserve.  You are right, to only an extent.  IF the increase in US Treasuries in the Fed is equal to the increase in said reserve, it is not inflationary.  But what if it isn't?  You see, you rely a lot on Fed data to make your presumptions.  What if those numbers are false?  Even if those number are real, there is an implied 1x increase in M2 from it because the US govt will have to spend the money they borrowed once.  Look at the M2 chart.   And you HAVE to ask why they discontinued M3.  I am pretty sure you have bloomberg.  So no, I don't agree with you.  Anecdotal evidence and alternative data points to an export of liquidity to EM, and overall increase in prices of goods across the board (using pre-1999 methodology to calculate inflation). 

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 03:56 | 795032 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

And one more thing, have you ever wondered why the Fed has not be audited for such a long time?

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 05:48 | 795081 deKevelioc
deKevelioc's picture

Then let's do more of this "accounting issue," shall we?

Why not?  If funding shortfalls at auction don't matter, let's fill the ever-widening gap forever.

John Williams has got it right, unless, of course, the political will that's needed somehow emerges.  It's not likely to happen. 

This is not a game of "cry uncle" when the situation with the dollar becomes unbearable, a collapse comes unexpectedly, quickly and from an unexpected source.

A collapse in the dollar will be brought on by a political event not an economic event.  That's why the timing of the event is so tough to predict.

"Money for nothing and the chicks are free."

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 06:29 | 795098 Grill Boss
Grill Boss's picture

When you guys learn uniform commercial code (UCC) and when money starts (when you are born) you will understand that much more money than the measly trillions (as we undertand it is being played with) just think 1 million in the states alone for everyone with a birth certifiate. Then the borrow into existence on that. The reason they can print forever is because this is chump change compared to what is really going on. They play a whole different game it is different when they dont tell you the rules it is way different when you dont even know there is a whole other game going on (btw this is canada, england, france etc.)

Real bonds are the bonds that are issued when a person is born none of this other stuff, this is what the big boys own.... YOU... where do your tax dollars go again? Has anyone really looked into how much money the govt raises vs what they tell you? Why is it they never seem to have enough?

You can think "Conspiracy" all you want which is the most clever way of saying "i will just deny it and not look into it"


UCC birth (or) berth certificate... as in when you are born you are berthed (like a ship) (your mother) the cargo needs a certificate (birth) to keep track of where it goes (you)

MARITIME ADMIRALTY LAW since people are being born everyday in countries these guys for the most part own.... there will never be a shortage of money (or debt that interest can be charged on) cops agents etc. do nothing but balance books and protect assets

that is all that is going on.

Do you know the difference between a human and a person? a driver and a human?

Do you know why every document or license you have is in CAPITAL LETTERS?

Do you understand the rights you lost when you created the CERTIFICATE

You are the corporate representative of what was formerly a human.

There are no laws there are only statutes posing as laws... only corporations can be charged in violation of statute so are you a corporation?

You Fuckn bet your ass you are (strawman) at this point ALL YOUR RIGHTS DISAPPEARED, this is part of why they dont give a shit because they technically dont have to answer to anyone (but the corporate reps of which they own)


Deny all you want it is for real

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 03:03 | 795005 dehdhed
dehdhed's picture

i'm not an english major so this will be too brief.  debt money is not inflationary because the funds used to service debt negate the inflationary impact of debt money.  to have deflation, debt money needs to be defaulted upon and destroyed.   when defaults aren't allowed and bailouts or pomo to infinity are used instead, then the debt money is replaced with inflationary money supply.

they may only do it to a point where deflation isn't allowed to happen, but the result will be that the inflationary money will be much greater than it was previously in relation to non-inflationary debt money.  the end result won't be deflationary,  it borders criminal, but it's not deflationary unless defaults are allowed.

in defaults, the non-inflationary debt money portion of the money supply shrinks and prices collapse as too many goods chasing too few dollars.  but they aren't allowing that to happen.  me thinks they are buying time by suggesting deflation would happen if they didn't do what they're doing around the world.   but once the system is stabilized, the inflationary portion of the money supply will be much greater than it is today,  the economies will have slowed to the point where there is nowhere to go but up, and we'll have a situation where there is now too much inflationary money supply chasing too few goods.

i don't know if this will be hyperinflationary but unless defaults are allowed and wealth detroyed,  it won't be deflationary.

as i proof read this, okay that was too long and incoherent.  ah well, but i get it anyway.


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 03:43 | 795021 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

I don't think there is such at thing as debt money, there is only money.  The only difference is money in circulation vs money not in circulation.  I had once made the argument that QE1 is not inherently inflationary if the banks excess reserves in the Fed increases equivalently.  One only has to track this in the Fed weekly balance sheet.  In fact one can see how much leakages from the Fed POMOs from the tables presented everyweek by the Fed. 

As for deflation/inflation, deflation can occur when the money multiplier decreases as when there is debt default or deleveraging.  I think deleveraging now is the main factor with debt default being extended out as a strong second reason.  It is a natural progress from a drug-induced high before the crisis but the Fed is hell-bent on trying to prevent that from occuring.  I had given examples before on how expanding M1 to reduce this impact can be a bad policy due to the multiplier effect.   In any case, the mechanism of the multiplier implies even the slightest pick up in economic activity will lead to massive inflation which will lead to hyperinflation.  Which is like what you said.  The international nature of capital these days complicates the analysis somewhat but I think its a question of where the inflation shows up first rather than whether its deflation or inflation.

Your analysis is not wrong (from what I can understand) but there is not inflationary or deflationary money.  Only creation or destruction of money.


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 03:23 | 795013 dehdhed
dehdhed's picture

QE2 is not inflationary, despite the protests from all the green bean wingnuts around here. A simple glance at the DXY over the past few weeks will validate that.

you do realize that the dxy is just a relationship to other currencies right?  although i do love green beans,  i think it's better to glance at a more relevant chart rather than the one that just compares pieces of paper to one another.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 03:39 | 795020 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

you do realize that the dxy is just a relationship to other currencies right..

Yes. I know that.

This conversation is about hyperinflation, which is entirely a 4X phenomenon.  That is why the DXY is relevant.

If QE2 was inflationary or hyperinflationary, the DXY would have moved in the exact opposite direction that it did.  

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 04:58 | 795058 Seer
Seer's picture

Good points, but isn't gold becoming that "other" currency? Once upon a time gold was valued at $35/oz; it's now close to $1,400/oz.  At some point the inflection point occurs, in which case the debate ceases.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:34 | 794543 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

Well first you have to realize your numbers are fucked up. 


US Gov't Debt: Lots can be cancelled (should be)

Municipal Gov't debt: can be defaulted (should be)

Social Security unfunded? It's not part of the budget (thus = 0)

...when you say unfunded, you mean expected payouts....and the number is big....and the funny thing is...the cost goes up with inflation....what is making this number bigger? Bailouts.  Now I haven't seen a figure, but whatever NPV dollars are printed in the billions (or tens of more likely), the amount that needs to be funded in total decades later is TRILLIONS more.  Want to cut the amount needed for social security? Overly concerned about it like a fascist whore?  Than stop The Bernank from printing now, and making bad debt whole and social security needed later will be LESS.  Not to mention, quit taking the surplus out and adding it to the budget.  Overall the numbers on this are BULLSHIT, statistical sophistry that is wholly dependant on how many rich people get bailed out in the next 40 years, as they have been for the past 40 and especially the past two.

Medicare liability unfunded: see social security

Prescription Drug: Bush's giveaway to for profit big pharma.  Can be axed (and replaced)

Now it's not very hard.  Most of what you included and didn't include can be WIPED away, because it's USELESS, NOT NEEDED, and FRAUD.

Fuck austerity, lets just stop the hemorraging from the banksters, and watch how everything suddenly isn't so bad.

So again, when the vast majority of your numbers are in question, so should be the response.

They've got you BELIEVING THEIR BS, and now you want to cut (most likely). 

IT"S ALL BULLSHIT THAT THEY CONTROL.  You forget that.  Then since people are fucking clueless they say we need to cut, when really we need to EXPAND.

Cancel the GSE and guaranteed debt by the gov't as well.

Suddenly your numbers look more like this

5 trillion debt vs 128.25+off balance sheet shit

As you can see the banksters have you believing the bathtub is FULL.  Sorry, there's only one legitimate inch in it.  The rest is bullshit.  Either fraudulent, or statistically based.

Anyone remember Back the FUture II?  50 dollars for a Pepsi in 2015. 

It's all about how much they print, the timing, and when they are forced to stop it. 

You can't take numbers from 2040 and say see how can we afford 70 trillion.  Well in 1970-1980 they'd be saying the same about the current costs.

Again though, this is because of the printing.

So first you have to understand the numbers, how they are bullshit, and how much is determined by The Bernank right now. 

Truly anyone who puts out the numbers you did, do not understand the situation.  Rethink the MANY flaws in your fucked up PHD style equation. 

Glass-Steagall will wipe away 80-90 percent of all your fake debt. Stopping The Bernank from fraudulently printing will stop the increases. 

If a loaf of bread costs 10,000 dollars, how much will all these cost?  Hundreds of quadrillions.  So as you can see, your numbers are full of subjectiveness. 

NONE OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE SUSTAINABILITY OF THESE PROGRAMS, that's just republican, fascist, bullshit.  Don't buy a line that only the Palin's and Bachman's should listen to.  Use your head. 

Again, Social security, IS IN TRUST, it's NOT part, and NEVER HAS BEEN, part of the budget.  However the fascists are trying to change that, so that they can cut it.  Needlessly, by listening to the SAME PHD IDIOTS that got everything else wrong.

So if you don't believe the BLS, or other bullshit statistics, you shouldn't believe the ones you just wrote above.  Because they are even MORE FUCKED UP and DETACHED FROM REALITY than 1950's Soviet production quotas. 



Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:43 | 794554 moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

nice rant

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:47 | 794562 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

Agreed.  I am assuming here they try to pay it back.  I know they can't.  Nice rant btw. 

Debt jubilee is definitely an option but you don't quite understand the ramifications.  If you have time, go read my blog.


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 23:00 | 794693 ClaymoreStoor
ClaymoreStoor's picture

Your rant ignores certain political realities unfortunately.  But what I'd really like to pick at is this statement:

"Again, Social security, IS IN TRUST, it's NOT part, and NEVER HAS BEEN, part of the budget.  However the fascists are trying to change that, so that they can cut it.  Needlessly, by listening to the SAME PHD IDIOTS that got everything else wrong."

Wrong.  Lyndon Johnson put the social security trust "on-budget" making it a part of the general budget.  It's gone through a complicated history since then but what's certain is the social security surpluses no longer exist.  The "trust fund" has been pillaged by Congress for decades.  The social security surplus is little more than a line item on an excel spreadsheet maintained by the Treasury.  That's why this year, when social security started paying out more than it was taking in, the US government had to issue debt to pay the difference.  They didn't go into some trust fund and take money out of some fictional bank account.  Why?  Because that money doesn't exist, and hasn't existed for decades.  True, social security has built up some 25+ years worth of surpluses, but unfortunately that money is long gone, spent by your wise leaders in Congress.  Oh but rest assured, those IOUs are backed by the full faith and credit of the US.  

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 23:24 | 794739 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Thanks for that. I was going to mention essentially the same point. In addition, in one line the author argues all of the other numbers are made up, but then declares the SS fund to be "IN TRUST" and therefore demonstrates inherently faulty logic - that there's no credibility in one aspect but that there would/is credibility in another. As you so aptly reference, the SS 'lock box' exists only electronically and is subject to the same lies and BS as anywhere else in government. 

In reality, there is no "money" backing any of this. Our debt-money unit of account exists only in the collective conscience. It is not "real". Furthermore, our unit of account can be taken, de-based, hypothecated, pledged, etc. without our direct consent, representation, etc. The vast majority of our "wealth" exists as 1's and 0's on a computer controlled by the government. 

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:36 | 794853 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Very good point. Social Security was never "invested" in the traditional sense of the word. If it had, it would have had an independent board of advisors to allocate investments for long term growth to meet its fiduciary requirements. Certainly, a large percentage would have been in U.S. gov't bonds, but not all. It would not be linked to the U.S. Gov't or budget. The Soc. Sec. fund has been raided and gutted to fund government overspending. It is also a legal ponzi scheme. It has never been a solvent design. Since LBJ it has been openly raided to reduce the actual annual deficits. Without it, even Clinton would not have shown budget surplusses. Social security is bad design, bad execution and essentially an insolvent lie. It is in fact, just part of the tax base and government spending.

Ben Bernanke is doing what Congress should do but defers to the Fed. He will pay the bills by inflating the currency, up to an including hyperinflation. I don't think he will do hyperinflation on purpose but once you have large inflation, hyperinflation is the wet watermelon seed you are squeezing between your fingers. Financially, it is equivalent to a 100% tax rate and a full default on all debt.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 23:20 | 794735 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

I don't necesarily agree with your position here, for several reasons, but I appreciate you putting it up.  I look forward to reading long discourse rebutting your missive, and learning from all of it.



Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:18 | 794833 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Watch these videos:

Then check your premises.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:59 | 794886 jakethesnake76
jakethesnake76's picture

i KNOW your the smartest guy in the room now because you just told me lol but you couldn't predict what has already happened. Sure there is no reality in your world and what you determine but actions have consequences and when people pay for something and don't get it (SSI) etc and when the peeps start into the street like Great Britain or worst Greece want you think in yer bubble doesn't matter.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:04 | 794891 fasTTcar
fasTTcar's picture

Actually, you forgot a little nugget on your debt round up.

Iraq (n) is an off balance sheet expense. 

Probably a couple of bux spent there too.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:05 | 794960 fat tony slim
fat tony slim's picture

when you say worth $14.6trn, is that net equity where this might assume?

assets: $142.85trn
less debt: 128.25trn
equity: $14.6trn

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:30 | 794979 Wolf in the Wilds
Wolf in the Wilds's picture

Nope.  Not ignoring it.  Its like saying if the US sold Alaska, all problems will be solved.  Never going to happen.  Look at the blocks that have been put up for US assets.  If you allow China to buy your assets and cancel you debt.. Can YOU see that happening?


I can't.  So I excluded that as a possibility.



Fri, 12/10/2010 - 07:10 | 795113 student for life
student for life's picture

Must consider Iceland's size and that the US$ is the world reserve currency. The govts. around the world could dump the $ if it reaches their stop loss and other big players could jump in. In the international market the $'s value will approach zero causing hyperinflation in the US. All the goods produced in EM will cost so much they will either use it domestically or find other market will to pay their price. We will have to start producing the things we want ourselves. Hyperinflation could come on very fast all it will take is just one big players' stop loss to be triggered. IMHO

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 07:54 | 795136 laughnow
laughnow's picture

The only one making a fool of themselves here, is you. There are dozens of respected

pundits that have said the same thing for a long time. Your figures are

fatally flawed. The real US debt is at least as 3-400 % of GDP..worse the

GDP is fake...all govt spending. YoY consumer spending, and real

economic growht has not picked up and has been replaced by govt spending. The only

thing keeping this train to hell on the tracks is the QE that keeps govt spending

massively in excess of real revenues.

Looks like you'll be one of zombies, friend. Better wake up before its too late.


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:32 | 794926 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

trains derailing are more pleasant

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:02 | 793829 Bagbalm
Bagbalm's picture

She can go out and shoot a Moose. Not an option around here...

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:57 | 794243 curly
curly's picture

Put some antlers on Barney Fwank?

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:55 | 794578 snowball777
snowball777's picture

And get her hunting equipment with an EBT card!

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:55 | 794039 tsx500
tsx500's picture

agreed.   pleez pleez pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez  tell me she will NOT be the repub nominee for 2012  ! ! !

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:21 | 794131 Strider52
Strider52's picture

Curiousity made me watch a few minutes of "Sarah Palin's Alaska" the other day. OMG, she really is as stupid as a glacier! If she's elected, I may have to move to Alaska. 

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 20:43 | 794440 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

That is an irresponsible and intellectually dishonest thing to say about anybody when you can't present facts to back up your allegations.  I am not a supporter of a Palin presidential ticket.  But that doesn't make her stupid.  It just means I don't think she would make a very good president.  Why do narrow-minded pseudo-intellectual idiots like you and yours have such a hard time accepting certain things about a subject while rejecting others?  I am so amused and confused by otherwise intelligent individuals who make blanket statements like "OMG, she really is as stupid as a glacier!"


Do yourself a favor:  shut your yap until you can say something reasoned and well thought out.  And yes, the junkers from hell will nip my heels for this missive.  But they are only proving my point.  Bring it or shut it.

And, she's a babe.  Which, by the way, is empirically provable. 

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:21 | 794515 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Go jerk off to pictures of her. Seriously, if you can't see right though the picture she's trying to portray, you should have no right to vote.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 23:32 | 794757 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Gross but true. I feel sorry for peole who are sexually attracted to her. It's disgusting.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:42 | 794939 Village Idiot
Village Idiot's picture

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 22:03 | 794567 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

But she is as stupid as a glacier, e.g., citing her ability to see the Soviet Union from Alaska as international experience. No, I take it back ... she is MORE STUPID THAN A GLACIER, A CLACIER KEEPS ITS MOUTH SHUT.


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:49 | 794570 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Yes, she's a babe.

A stupid babe.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 04:56 | 795057 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

That is the definition of a bimbo, isn't it?

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 23:28 | 794743 financeguru500
financeguru500's picture

Hey mtomato,

Maybe you fell off the short bus as well. How about this for a little fact. She's known to say the most ridiculous things leading everyone to believe she is in fact retarded.

Consider when she was interviewed by Glenn Beck and when asked on the situation between North and South Korea, her response was "The U.S. needs to stick by its North Korean Allies."

You couldn't make this stuff up if you were writing a book on the subject.

Imagine if she were in a position of power to actually make the call on decisions such as attacking another nation. How would that situation play out if she couldn't even realize which side the U.S. is on lol.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:35 | 794851 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Hey, guru:

How about your inability to comprehend even the simplest of statements such as "I don't support a Palin presidential ticket."

God help you if you're ever interviewed and you misspeak.  No, you're "The Guru..."  That could never happen to one as astute as you.

But I have to give you some credit:  at least you presented an example of why you hold your opinion, something others seem unable/willing to do.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:05 | 794896 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Intellectually lazy.  THAT is empirically provable (every unscripted interview she has ever done, and every interview she did before her handlers caught on to her vapidness).  For an American to reach the age she has without any understanding whatsoever of the world outside of hunting and Alaska---hardly the prime qualifications for the Oval Office---is absurd.  Playing catch-up, even with the best handlers in the world, would be difficult for an intellectual giant, which she is not.  The other leaders who occupy the world stage, even in non-democratic countries, are so far above her in terms of both knowledge and intellect that the US would immediately find itself at a major disadvantage.  They'd skewer her, and in the process, the US.

Palin is a construct.  Her handlers are hoping for the hormone vote (some men find her attractive, though I can't see it) and the dumb vote.  If she looked like Madeline Albright, you would not even know her name.  Though I cannot prove it, I'm willing to bet she wrote little or none of her "book", and her TV show is just another facet of the machine her handlers are constructing around her.  Notice how careful they are to keep her more shielded than a rock star, lest she let more proof slip that she is a mentally challenged.

Many things about the current US irritate me, and despite prior service to the land of my birth, I sometimes toy with the idea of never going back.  If the nation had the collective stupidity to elect this nothing as President, I would toss in the passport and never look back, for everything my country was or could be would have died.  Plus, I'd be too embarrassed to show my face at any point of Immigration at any airport in the world, and I cross borders a lot.

Do what the military used to do:  put some saltpeter in your food.  It'll take away the male urge and let you see this bimbo more clearly for what she is, and isn't.


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:12 | 794963 dehdhed
dehdhed's picture

That is an irresponsible and intellectually dishonest thing to say about anybody when you can't present facts to back up your allegations

and then you go and do the same thing, only worse.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:21 | 794968 merehuman
merehuman's picture

palin and cheney would make a great pair of shooters. I could sell tickets to that

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:48 | 793778 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

It's probably good that video isn't available in my country, as I can't stand that intellectually vacuous grade A moron.

I'm not sure why I clicked that link, I think I just had to confirm it was a train wreck.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 20:44 | 794442 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Read my response to strider.  You are worse than he.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:19 | 794510 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

hahahahahahahahhahahha.... when i can't back up my allegations????

What are you stupid or something?

Oh "stupid is as stupid does"?

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 23:17 | 794727 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:15 | 794965 dehdhed
dehdhed's picture

you should read your own response to strider or have someone in your real world read it and ask them who was worse.   you?  or strider?

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:40 | 793986 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

She is wearing Michelle Obama's dress.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:51 | 794027 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Link No Workeee??

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 20:49 | 794448 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

I didn't hear her say anything that a typical Zero Hedger would disagree with. 


Yet bring on the haters and pseudo-intellectual vacuosities.


C'mon!  Here, boy!  C'mon!

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:53 | 794872 Mark Noonan
Mark Noonan's picture

A bit astounding - guy runs a blog demanding that the status quo be broken; launches attack on Sarah Palin, the one person we have who just might attack the status quo; where does attacker get ammunition for attack?  From the Ruling Class' talking points about Palin.

Wake up, indeed. 

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:26 | 794975 merehuman
merehuman's picture

I can see the mounds of Palin from here. Wish i were in russia so she could see me too.

She could be the first president i would like to have a midnight snack with. Condoms included. if she quits her husband like Alaska i will send her a menu

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:30 | 794984 Malcolm Tucker
Malcolm Tucker's picture

If you think Sarah Palin is "the one person we have who just might attack the status quo"

then I don't think we have much to discuss. Let's agree to disagree on this one.

I know there are many Americans that have the courage to speak truth to power.

I just don't think she's one of put it mildly.


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 10:25 | 795268 Brian Griffin
Brian Griffin's picture


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:13 | 793602 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

I'm surprised you didn't say anything about freeze dried food cans. It seems to be your little obsession. ;-)

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:20 | 793626 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Looks like he stored enough fat to get through the first 5 years of that worst prediction without food.

For his sake, I hope it happens.

Otherwise a cardiac full stop will stop him :)

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:39 | 793729 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

Yeah, but there is no way he can outrun a hungry cannibal with that much extra weight.  He is just storing it for someone else at this point I guess.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:42 | 793746 CPL
CPL's picture

rule number 2:  cardio

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:44 | 793757 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

+1.  LOL

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:25 | 793947 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Any of the survivalist websites will tell you that fit physical condition is the first rule.

I guess Mr. Williams doesn't read those.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:27 | 793950 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

He certainly doesn't read them while walking on a treadmill or eating a salad.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:04 | 794067 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

I have watched him for a few years now. I feel certain this is the heaviest he has ever been. That tells me he is depressed and stuffing it with food. 

Also, he used to be a better presenter than he was there. I was glad Tyler outlined the important points because I felt frustrated that if I was a new viewer, that he sounded too mumbly and that I may not track what he was saying well. I am grateful for what he does and feel bad saying these things but they strike me as probably true.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 20:45 | 794443 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

I would copy and paste your submittal and post it right



Thu, 12/09/2010 - 23:18 | 794729 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

MsCreant!  It's so cute!  We got matching junks!

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:07 | 794477 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Mr. Williams came across as a sincere (slightly distracted by the plate of holiday cookies off camera), like-able and knowledgeable gentleman to me. This was my first exposure to him, so I have no past reference.

While his body may be rotund, his ego is certainly not bloated. I would trust him more than any of the egomaniacs in power these days.

You said nothing unkind.


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 23:24 | 794738 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Know your chirons. This is how they hurt you. They are much much better at hurting you than you are hurting them.

Chiron in Aires. Self loathing. This is inversion of aries natural optomistic self esteem. It's inversion of your disgust back onto you. The only way to combat it is through self awareness. DO NOT let them use sympathetic link to distort your sense of self and turn other peoples feelings and opinions into your own. When this no longer works it pisses them off to no end. For instance I was going to sleep one night and they attached to me and started flooding me with a massive fear dump. I came back to conciousness and asked them what they were afraid of. Then massive anger dump. I was supposed to eat the fear and call it my own. Knowing the differences pisses them off to no END. The opposition of aries is libra. Chiron in libra is centered around unrealistic expectations of relationships. Demanding too much from a partner. The libra aries activation of chiron involves you attempting to break down a self esteem of something more powerful than you so you get broken down instead.

Chiron in Taurus. All signs are intimately tied to their opposition and opposition of taurus is scorpio. Scorpio works with repeating patterns and it's largest fear is loss of something it can't get back. Chiron is taurus is activated through fear and reality of loss of comfort ease and security. It can result in taurean and scorpionic behavior. Overeating because you know you are going to starve in the future. Hording because you know it's going to get taken away from you in the future.

Chiron in gemini. This is pain of the intellect. Feeling that your intellect is insufficient and it comes with alot of pain of people who are naturally "gifted" with communication and have a lot of people who are willing to listen to them. What can I say here. Completely retarded Al Gore is a perfect example of how people ignorant fucks can get an audience as long as it supports facist oppression of people. Intellect is only one chakra shift away from sex. It wants to satisfy curiosity and wants to be received by other intellects as well as be satisfied by answers it is looking for. It's opposition is sagitarius which is being imprisoned in a "mundane" body or lacking intellectual resources to satisfy a goal of "greatness" through jupiter. It's all confidence based and whenever people seem intimately satisfied with an intellectual framework that the powers that be hate expect to pull grammer nazi's and every name calling son of a bitch on the planet into the mix to tell you how retarded and stupid your understandings are.

Chiron in cancer oppostion is capricorn. This is pain of lack of love for self. It's seeking love from other people when self love is the answer. You can fully expect dick fuld, ben bernanke, jamie dimon, etc etc to never suffer one drop of this chiron. Their self love and self agrandizing and self rewarding flows unhindered by society under every circumstance. Just as punitive energy flows from a cop or law enforcement no matter how fucking silly things are this will never get one fucking hair in the clog. You can send hate mail to these people night and day and it won't affect the total self satsifying love and bliss they feel for themselves as they bury this under an avalanche of self justification that flows them through unhindered by logic or fairness or reasonability. They've got thousands of nazi angels shoving the only love good enough for me is completely uncomformed unconditional and never ending. Of course they don't have one fucking drop of that to give but they'll take all they can get. Chiron in capricorn is a lack of recognition for your accomplishments. No matter how hard you effort to take care of someones needs through job function it's met with a total lack of appreciation.

Chiron in Leo oppostion is aquarius. This is lack of attention. It's opposition is feeling very uncomfortable in groups. Feeling that no matter how sincerely you try to ingratiate yourself into a crowd you just don't fit in.

Chrion in Virgo, Pain of perfection. This one gets stuffed down alot of peoples throats. Because the people in charge are fuckup galores. They fuck more stuff and more often than a normal person could possibly fuck something up. So to stay on top someones gotta feel very imperfect. It's oppostion is chiron in pisces. Chiron in pisces is pain of losing a cherished belief. Anytime you lose faith in the fucktards in charge they'll double bang you with these twin ban hammers. Every deceiver needs a believer and if you don't tow the fucking line you will eat imperfection of approach or strategy or capability till you do. They will keep shoving mean fucking idiots at you making the only answer that's acceptable to them is forgiveness because they and they alone have a monopoly on perfecting, changing, and what is worthy of faith and what isn't. Couple a tips here. If you think you are right and you are going to punish someone. Then forget about it. You're just not good enough. You're just going to have to keep believing in forgiveness and keep perfecting yourself till you're "ready". Because it's an old boys fuckup club and you're on the outside.

So there ya go MsCreant. Which ball of crap do you think is being shoved down our stars throat here. If you guessed chiron in taurus you're understanding fuck over mechanics at a detailed level.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:23 | 794840 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

D@mn if you don't write just like an Economist PhD!  (Same subjects too)

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:39 | 794859 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

What in the FUCK are you trying to talk about?

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:56 | 794881 Spalding_Smailes
Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:41 | 794938 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

I wasn't talking about anybody you jerk off too. I thought you only protected people that gave you jollies so who exactly are you sticky goo protecting. Did I forget to send you naked pictures of myself so you could know if you "liked" me or not?

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 12:11 | 800068 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

No one will see this at this late date but I felt a need to respond. There are alternate thought systems out there that, at first blush, look like fruit cake bullshit. When you look more deeply at them, they have something to offer. Sometimes they have things about them that mirror our own systems and so we are more comfortable with those, and sometimes they are really alien and we dismiss them. But the alternate languaging makes altenate thought structuration possible. Linear thought, which is much of western civilization, is great for much of what we do, but it cuts off the ability to see other things about what is possible in the world. Linear thinking appears to us as "the way it really is" when in fact, it too is a social construction. Heph's rant up there is logically ordered and an interesting structure to look at and see if it works. I can identify consistent axes, or dimensions if you like, and play with it. I am not certain of Heph's conclusion, but he shared the whole structure with me to consider so I am free to play with it or reject it as not useful for this problem, here, now.

I know you are a math person, and empathic, I know insults have been exchanged, stands have been made, and, it is just a comments section on a blog. To see what is there, sometimes we have to slow down and release our emotional charge/attachments. 

The short version, it isn't as nutty as it first looks.

Thu, 12/16/2010 - 20:39 | 812925 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Well see that's the problem. They taught me the nutty system. They just didn't count on me figuring out how it gets used for good and for ill. Because you're supposed to learn these things on a superficial basis and apply them in a superficial way. Like a sociopath boss. Not to understand it a deep level and be able to stitch it all together into a full on cause and effect big picture.

It's interesting though when you just fucking OUT a control system though. I expected smailes to attack because he's a full butt boy troll for the powers that be right now. Mtomato's attack was expected too because I was pointing out how he's been fucked over by palin lust. That's how group energies work. By pooling a bunch of retarded monkey fucker energy into one spot it makes it bigger and more powerful and more attractive than usual. And they don't like you being immune to it. Since it becomes a borg collective kind of thing it get's fucked up on sense of self identities. By attacking mtomato for being part of this thing he feels he has to defend it and everyone in the collective feels they have to defend it. This is how they get you to defend "them". By make you an ego extension of them you defend it because you confuse "you" with "them". Mtomato just won't be logical why defend palin she's not even going to cook you dinner much less give you a blow job.

When I carried the powers that be energy and worked with a group of people that's the dynamic I didn't like. Everyone was constantly protecting me. That and a couple of people that reported back to me that "You want me to trust you or you need my trust". That disturbed me the most. But it was worth it to some extent because just carrying and being part of it I was setting off everyone's chirons and I got to learn how damaging it all is.

But what disturbed me the most was for all the blabber and bullshit behind non sexual universal love the group energies carry a fucking TORRENT of sexual energy. Well because they are more than just attention whores. They are just fucking whores. Period.

But what is most exciting is when I spill the beans to someone who's capable of understanding it everybody comes out of the woodwork to attack. Because the system gives power through it's mechanics and everybody hates a fucker that teaches you how to grab it by the nuts and punch people in nose.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 11:11

I have a feeling you'll be hanging out with 7 foot niggers from the dark since you can spot em.

But the thing is it's not a linear system. It's a circular reasoning system that we deal with. You just have to be blinded to enough parts of the circle to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time to stay on the merry go round. That's why people reject astrology or tarot because with enough time with it you get to see the circular reasoning systems that build them. But everything works that way anyway. Law, medicine, and education. The powers that be are most afraid of us integrating our oppositions. Becoming thieves, murderers and punishers. But even more afraid of us becoming fair witnesses and good judges.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:21 | 794919 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

I thought Leo is always in Solar phase...

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:35 | 794928 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:28 | 794976 dehdhed
dehdhed's picture

that was kind of trippy, thanks i enjoyed the flashbacks i was getting :)

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 02:30 | 794983 merehuman
merehuman's picture

i once knew a spiritual tranvestite. I didnt get any of it.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:35 | 793969 Marla And Me
Marla And Me's picture

Actually my friend, cardio is Rule #1.  Double Tap is Rule #2...

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:01 | 794061 curbyourrisk
curbyourrisk's picture

Why double tap?  Isn't that just wasting the second bullet?  Make the first one count!!!!!

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:25 | 794139 Zyroh
Zyroh's picture

don't take chances with zombies

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:29 | 794156 GoatETF
GoatETF's picture

Wasting the second bullet

Take that statement up with most SF members around the world.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:52 | 794222 Sabibaby
Sabibaby's picture

Better get it right the first time!

as for another famous flick! "Aim for the heart or the head, anything else is your ass"

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:48 | 794213 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Double tap? Isn't that what Senator Larry Craig did in the  Minneapolis St. Paul airport restroom stall , in 2007 ?

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:43 | 794556 gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

Double-tap is an ammo company, specializing in high performance loads, such as their 10mm line.  I think that is what he meant.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 00:02 | 794805 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Yes, double tap is an ammo company but the  writer was referring to a technique.  Two quick rounds to a vital area, bang, bang double tap..

Double tap,  the gold standard in making sure they don't get back up, especially with 5.56.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 19:00 | 794255 goldsaver
goldsaver's picture

Rule #2 is "Beware of bathrooms" Doubletap is rule #4

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:21 | 793632 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Modern Liberalism ~


Enlisted our cultural elites those that run .... institutions that manufacture , manipulate and disseminate ideas, attitudes and a few symbols ( universities, churches- yes over run, hollywood, the press, " public interest groups ", judiciary.. and the supreme court )...  Lol' ... Yes !

The liberal bums in the 60's the drugs, abortions ... The downfall of the family model and the morals of the USA, enjoy...


Good Job !!! Viva' liberal scum !!!

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:20 | 793929 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Since abortions have been legal the crime rate has gone down considerably.  Liberal scum are loath to imply a causal relationship to that fact.   Conservative crap also prefer to let that sleeping dog lie, for diametrically opposed reasons.;jsessionid=7004E0DA8A3F8EDFABDEDD8967CC05F3

Incidentally, this is one of the hot buttons our masters push to keep us divided and conquored.   Its like magic.  All they need to do is rile people up about some concept that really has nothing to do with them, like abortion or gays and they can get people to literally vote against their own monetary self interest.  It is quite fascinating, really. 

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:43 | 793994 The_Dude
The_Dude's picture

Funny.  The papers didn't say anything about flat-lining the population growth of the current populace since 1973.


So now we import (illegals or otherwize) population to keep the giant ponzi going.  Creating all sorts of fun financial, demographic, racial and cultural stresses that are building everyday.  I wonder how long that crime stats stays down when things finally break down and everyone reverts to thier old tribal tendencies.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:54 | 794037 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

They do need new blood/imports for S.S. ect .... This is a big issue -----(flat-lining the population growth).

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 21:44 | 794551 The_Dude
The_Dude's picture

So, you concede the fact that f'ing with a natural reproductive rates have completely distorted the societal growth pattern which the Great Society social contract required. And you are willing to let the PTB play a game with immigration flows the like that have never been seen before in the world, cross your fingers and go "Well, I hope I get my SS cause that and 'Dancing with the Stars' is all that I care about."  Fuck the Education System, fuck the Health Care system, fuck the trades, fuck the low skilled Americans payrate, and fuck ultimately the Social Contract and likely Social Security.  Because you want to have the same short sighted, selfish mentality that got us here.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:04 | 794894 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

I tossed the tv in the trash 10 years ago, gone. I read thats it both sides.

They need imports, the family model is gone, look around, morals, gone.

Read a fucking book and be better than 51% and everything will be ok, focus or quit bitching.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 05:03 | 795060 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Spare me your puritanical crap.  Things weren't better in the 1950s just because people didn't get divorced or have abortions as often. 

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 05:27 | 795068 primefool
primefool's picture

or ..because school children were regularly subjected to emegency training ( consisting of ducking under your school desk) to prepare for a Soviet nuke attack .

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:37 | 794190 trav7777
trav7777's picture

this is an easy one...just take a look at the breakdown of crime by tribe.  The BJS does this as do a gazillion others.

The tribal tendencies are still in play and why there are discrepancies in rate of violent crime.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 19:04 | 794263 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

I expect a rather spectacular spike in crime once things, as you say, break down.

As for flattening population growth, I suspect the advent of a reliable form of birth control has much more to contribute to that than any other factor. Given a choice, most people limit the size of their families no matter how much the Catholic Church howls.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:03 | 794049 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Yeah, the crime rate has gone down,you think it might have to do with at least 38 states having concealed carry laws,and reciprocity?.Many criminals have been interviewed asking if they would rather be caught in the act, by the PoPo's, or John Q.

Without one bit of hesitation, they said the PoPo's, because citizens get to operate under different rules, there's your drop in crime.

Also, since we have murdered 50+million potential  American taxpayers, we seem to have had to start importing mexicans/foreigners, to do those jobs the dead never had a chance to/cannot.

Also, they cannot contribute to the SS/MCare/MCaid system, nor did they ever get a chance to pay taxes.

Smart move Huh?.

So,we water down the REAL America,so we are even more a nation divided.

All part of de plan.

Actions have consequences.We are reaping what they sowed.


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:07 | 794084 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Great points.

My mom & dad live in AZ.

Everyone has a gun. Not many holdups at the circle k.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:39 | 794195 trav7777
trav7777's picture

50 million taxPAYERS?

You need to take a peek under the hood of who is getting abortions and in which socioeconomic demographic.

If crime has *fallen* because of abortion, then these were not, by and large, taxpayers. 

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:37 | 794931 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture


Fri, 12/10/2010 - 01:39 | 794935 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

same thing happens when economies and monetary systems are extremely weak generating widespread poverty.  Example: parents in 3rd world countries will sell their children to pedophiles for a little money.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 05:17 | 795063 Seer
Seer's picture

Please do tell us what the "family model" is.  Leave it to Beaver?  Ah, those wonderful non-liberal days when you could go drag a darkie to death, send uppity women to institutional correction...

If there's anything worse than living the lie, it's living the OLD lie!

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:24 | 793644 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Hey, did you find those Bammster college transcripts yet or possibly anything written while editor of the Harvard Law Review?  No, nothing yet, well keep begging those ultrarich dem's will eventually toss you a crumb or something because they care...

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:25 | 794144 Ropingdown
Ropingdown's picture

Obama was not the editor of the Harvard Law Review, he was the President of the review, which is essential a politiical position.  The press didn't make this clear during the election.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 19:00 | 794250 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Excellent, now tell me you found his transcripts because he must have written absolutely nothing at Harvard as President of the law Review.  Distinction with no difference, but thanks for what it is worth..

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 05:20 | 795065 Seer
Seer's picture

Not that I voted for the bum, but WTF dude, Rome is burning and you're fucking worried about WHAT?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 12:13 | 798562 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Worried no, but in my spare time I enjoy pointing out the disconnect of what is expected from our "57 state" president, his lack of background and vetting, his absolutely serial gaffes and the Palin 3-4 gaffes.  Many of this crowd are infected IMO with MSM disease, they believe what they see.

  The press is THE problem without them the control of our government and the regulatory capture that has enabled and perpetuated the massive fraud in FIRE would not be possible.  I have watched the press spin politics and personalities for too long to not amuse myself pointing out hypocricy.

Rome burning is what I worry about but until these blokes can figure out Palin represents a large section of the country's beliefs, morals and values, like her or not, Rome will continue to smolder awaiting the conflagration.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:24 | 793646 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Want to know how to know if your a redneck - read above comment!

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:25 | 793648 Whizbang
Whizbang's picture

I agree, you heard it: between 1 and 5 years, the entire american system goes down. When this of course fails to happen, where will the mea culpa be?

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:34 | 793709 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

What mea culpa?

The sheeple did this to themselves, when they kept consenting (i.e. VOTING) for the Ponzi 'MeriKan nightmare, brought to us by the bipolar (D)&(R) District of Criminals!

When the US economy collapses for the bottom 99%, I'm sure they'll scream like they're on Oprah for Martial Law and putting *patriots* in kamps.

1984 anyone?

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:45 | 793763 cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

I think the whiz-kid was sarc. Note the "when this of course fails to..." He's looking for John W. and all of our's "mea culpa" when all's OK

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:46 | 793768 Whizbang
Whizbang's picture

voting doesn't matter when the next president has already been picked for the country ahead of time by the BIS and Bilderberg. The system is firmly in place and it's not going anywhere. These mad max fantasies are unbecoming. You should read about the take-overs in China, N. Korea, Cambodia, Somalia...etc. It's coming here next. Money has no value other than control. The people who print it have control over those who work for it. The banks are the executors of that function. Once the government is better armed than the citizen population, backed up by overseas allies, and is self funding citizens of the country are screwed. If we weren't already.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 05:26 | 795067 Seer
Seer's picture

"Money has no value other than control. The people who print it have control over those who work for it. The banks are the executors of that function. Once the government is better armed than the citizen population, backed up by overseas allies, and is self funding citizens of the country are screwed. If we weren't already."

That was worth repeating!

I'd change "money" to "currency," though.

Yes, if we all stop believing (in Apple Pie and the Greatness of America [the Edward Bernays lie]) it'll all crumble.  At some point the levels of alienation will reach that point, always have, always will... power concentrates and then gets broken up, it matters not under what banner it rules/flies, whether ham-fisted or benevolent, it'll get broken up- no need to fight the inevitable, energy is better spent creating the new.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:07 | 794080 DosZap
DosZap's picture


What do you mean WHEN?,the DHS Queen already had her teat in a ringer for LABELING real American Patriots "Domestic Terrorists'.

Remember the flack, and shitstorm she created before a retraction/apology was made?.

Do not think for one minute, she changed the game plan, nor her LW mind,nor who they come for first.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:40 | 793735 tickhound
tickhound's picture

"The only thing hyperinflated is Williams, himself"

Something hyper"deflated" is the right / left paradigm to which you still subscribe.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:51 | 793798 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Don't forget about your ego.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:07 | 793869 Dismal Scientist
Dismal Scientist's picture

I reckon you're one of Harry Wanger's other troll avatars.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:10 | 793584 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

And boom goes the dynamite. It's sooner, not later.

Bernanke has arrived as the Hoover Dam has sprung a massive leak, and all he has is some chewing gum, a clothes pin and a lint roller.

MacGyver he is not.

Velocity always wins, nature can't be tamed, and central bankers feel free to ignore history and wiser, more experienced men at their and OUR peril.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:28 | 793662 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:03 | 793841 CPL
CPL's picture

The gum he sticks behind his ear, the clothes pin on his nose and crams the lint roller up his ass

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 18:56 | 794235 AUD
AUD's picture

Now there's a job for Fight Club. Talk about mayhem!

I always thought that Bin Laden should have ordered his minions to fly into the Hoover Dam wall, rather than waste all that effort on the World Trade Centre.

Fri, 12/10/2010 - 05:29 | 795070 Seer
Seer's picture

No SEC files at Hoover Dam...

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:09 | 793588 goldmiddelfinger
goldmiddelfinger's picture

The biggest deflationary even of the day was the discovery that Michael Flatley is from Chicago

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:13 | 793599 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

fock off!!

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:22 | 793637 goldmiddelfinger
goldmiddelfinger's picture

Aw haud yer wheest ya foockin flykie holigan!

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:36 | 793717 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

His feet are from Ireland. Fook off.

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:43 | 793747 goldmiddelfinger
goldmiddelfinger's picture

A dinna ken es fookin heart's in San Francisco so fook ya n lae me aloyn to me tears

Thu, 12/09/2010 - 17:25 | 793858 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

What, Micheal Flatley is as Irish as well......... a Micheal Flatley.


Thu, 12/09/2010 - 16:10 | 793589 deepsouthdoug
deepsouthdoug's picture

Nice to be on the family farm with 500 lbs of potatoes that we grew this year along with a freezer full of veggies.............and guns.

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