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JPM, HSBC Sued For Silver Market Manipulation, Reaping Billions In Illegal Profits

Tyler Durden's picture


Yesterday's announcement by CFTC commissioner Bart Chilton that he was fully aware of fraudulent efforts to persuade and deviously control silver prices may have been the straw that broke the gold and silver price manipulating camel's back on precious metal manipulation. Today, Brian Beatty and Peter Laskaris (Southern District Court of New York, cases 10-08146, and 10-01857) sued the two firms at the very top of the precious metal manipulation pyramid: JPMorgan and HSBC. The lawsuit, which seeks class action status, alleges that "between in or about March 2008 and continuing through the present, Defendants have combined, conspired and agreed to restrain trade in, fix, and manipulate prices of silver futures and options contracts traded in this District on the COMEX division of the NYMEX. Defendants thereby have violated Section 1 of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C ¶1. Also during the Class Period, individual Defendants have intentionally acted to manipulate prices of COMEX silver futures and options contracts. Such conduct violates Section 9(a) of the Commodity Exchange Act, 7 U.S.C. ¶13b." And so, the tidal wave of lawsuits by all those who may have ever lost money trading precious metals against JPM et al begins.

The lawsuit alleges that the means by which JPM and HSBC manipulated the market is as follows:

  • Defendants have effected their foregoing restraint of trade and manipulation through diverse means. These means themselves include lawful and unlawful acts.
  • Defendants have held large positions in silver futures and silver options.
  • Defendant have held a concentrated and substantial amount of the open interest in silver futures contracts
  • Defendants have made large trades at key times.
  • Defendants or others have made large "spoof" orders which appeared on the trading screens; "spoofing" is the submission of a large order which is not executed but influences prices and is then withdrawn before it reasonably can be executed.
  • Defendants have communicated with and/or signalled one another their trades.

In the suit, the plaintiff allege that JPM and HSBC in August 2008 held 85% of the net short position in silver and by the first quarter 2009 held $7.9 billion in precious metal derivatives.

Some amusing observations from the plaintiffs:

Prior to public complains and the government investigation of manipulation of COMEX silver futures prices that began in March 2010, silver prices greatly underperformed gold prices. Since the government investigation began, silver prices have greatly outperformed gold prices.

This "price signature" is precisely consistent with what would be expected of very reputable firms (like the JP Morgan Group Defendants and the HSBC Group Defendants) when their unlawful activities are threatened by government investigations and possible exposure, and compliance intercedes.

Laskaris and Beatty further allege that Defendants reaped hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars in profits from the conspiracy.

Damages sought by plaintiffs include damages that may be tripled, and various other remedies.

In the meantime, as this lawsuit seeks class status, we are confident many readers will enjoin the plaintiffs. Especially since, as is suddenly all too well known, the CFTC's bias to perpetually rule in favor of the commission has been exposed for all to see. Will the be the watershed case that finds two of the biggest market manipulators finally guilty?

Oh, and, with one more "conspiracy theory" about to be proven for fact, can the tin foil hat be taken off now?

Full filing:



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Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:12 | 681819 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

As I said, those investors don't know who they are attacking. The case will be rejected by all courts on the US territory. Attacking the gold/silver cartel is attacking extremely powerful interests, including Rothschild's ones (

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:16 | 681835 malusDiaz
malusDiaz's picture

Who will be on the Front lines of war?


Support those brothers & sisters who are willing to fight against tyranny! 


Some day you WILL die.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:28 | 681861 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

I do support them, but don't forget that the whole US system is crooked, including the courts. If this complaint leads to JPM and HSBC conviction, then it would be fantastic. This case will be a test of the honesty of the US justice.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:40 | 681894 Bob
Bob's picture

This particular action is a civil case, so there definitely won't be any criminal conviction.  We'll see about award or, more likely regardless of merits, a settlement between plaintiffs and banks.  

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:30 | 682356 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

The thread hereby puts out an Urgent Message to Sr. VP at JPM JonNadler!

Jamie D must be up late tonight very worried, use that confidential phone number he gave you...

Told you not to fire Johnny Bravo!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:36 | 682017 Rick64
Rick64's picture
Commodity Futures Trading Commission judge says colleague biased against complainants

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:58 | 682189 zaknick
zaknick's picture

Justice? What effing justice??  What a farce.


Rodney Stich

Drugging America: A Trojan Horse

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:26 | 681856 LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

I guess you didn't get the memo several YEARS ago (circa 2006) that The House of Rothschild is completely OUT of the precious metal's business.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:32 | 681876 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

Muhahahaha. Do you really believe that?

PS: Rothschild is not a company, it is a family. And even if this family doesn't intervene directly in the markets, it doesn't mean her interests have faded away.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:57 | 681938 LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

They are known as The House of Rothschild.  Yes, they exited the market in 2006.  That is not to say that they own no physical metals.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:50 | 682394 Rahm
Rahm's picture

April 14, 2004, but who's counting ;)


Thu, 10/28/2010 - 04:23 | 682693 Habspurg
Habspurg's picture

Lord Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild, is on the board of BullionVault.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:43 | 682035 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Ha!  +1 for "The __________" movie reference.  Well done.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:42 | 682036 breezer1
breezer1's picture

the rothschilds were buying gold according to a telegraph article several months ago.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:52 | 682175 tallystick
tallystick's picture

Rothchild is long gold according to this CNBC interview.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:52 | 682061 tmosley
tmosley's picture

The key difference is that now they are long, rather than short.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:17 | 682329 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I am happy to walk in the footsteps of Giants as an owner of gold. ("FOFOA-speak")

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:00 | 681947 Arius
Arius's picture

if you noticed Rothchild got out of London pool in 2004...someone else got to hold the bag...but you know where this train is is NOT west doesnt matter what they tell you....

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:21 | 682222 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

The question is , just who is holding the gold plated tungsten bars? Hmmm, that is the question. I bet we have a lot of them in Ft. Knox because we have been such good clients.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:23 | 681975 Unlawful Justice
Unlawful Justice's picture

Nothings changed to make me think other wise.

There has to be some self-preservation motive to see any change.

Their all in this together, but i think there shit'n their pants.

Fear of truth/reality is an uncontrollable emotion.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:40 | 682028 Nostradumbass
Nostradumbass's picture




It is not a spelling issue.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:12 | 682320 Milestones
Milestones's picture

Correct!! Retired English teacher??      Milestones

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 02:30 | 682612 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

No, just another witness to the end result of the public school system.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 07:49 | 682811 ReeferMac
ReeferMac's picture


LOL! Sadly, you're right! I'm regularly amazed at the content spewed forth by those alleged to have successfully completed our educational system.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:30 | 682002 Brutlstrudl
Brutlstrudl's picture

At days end, the silver has to be in the warehouse. case closed

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:42 | 682034 boooyaaaah
boooyaaaah's picture

If the precious metal market is manipulated ---- then gold bug pumpers --- are accomplices or accessories to the crime.

I wonder if the fed and the treasury are in cahoots with JPM ---- maybe they are going to teach the unwashed how the game of commodities is played



At law, an accomplice is a person who actively participates in the commission of a crime, even though they take no part in the actual criminal offense. For example, in a bank robbery, the person who points the gun at the teller and asks for the money is guilty of armed robbery. However, anyone else directly involved in the commission of the crime, such as the lookout or the getaway car driver, is an accomplice, even though in the absence of an underlying offense keeping a lookout or driving a car would not be an offense.

An accomplice differs from an accessory in that an accomplice is present at the actual crime, and could be prosecuted even if the main criminal (the principal) is not charged or convicted. An accessory is generally not present at the actual crime, and may be subject to lesser penalties than an accomplice or principal.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:27 | 682125 chopper read
chopper read's picture


China now holds just a bit more than 1000 tonnes of gold in reserve and that the US holds just a bit more than 8100 tonnes, Meng said


Doubtless if the Yuan is to become an international currency like the dollar or the EUR, China has to get a huge gold reserve to support it and a reserve of 1054 tonnes is far from being enough.


The article went on to note that China needs only to use one tenth of its current dollar holdings in reserve to bring its gold holdings to parity with the US even with gold at $1300/ounce. We note also that Ms. Yi Gang, the head of SAFE (the rather aptly named State Administration for Foreign Currency), said earlier this month that China could add gold to its reserve position but would do so only “prudently,” rather  than aggressively. Nonetheless, Mr. Meng’s article shall raise gold’s profile all things being otherwise equal.


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:22 | 682223 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

I wonder how many of those gold bullion bars they have drilled holes in?

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 00:34 | 682448 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

To what purpose?  Transmogrifying them into sponges to sop up "excess liquidity?"

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 04:10 | 682679 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

"become an international currency like the dollar or the EUR, China has to get a huge gold reserve to support it"


Thu, 10/28/2010 - 06:02 | 682752 Burnsy
Burnsy's picture

Lifting their reserve holdings to 10%, the world CB average, would equate to about 7000 tons at current prices. Meaning 2,5-3 times last years total production. China will not go about this by buying large amounts through the central bank. Rather, they will continue to encourage their growing middle class to accumulate gold (as they are already) and thus lift their total gold holdings. This asian middle class accumulation is underestimated. Their culture is very much tuned towards saving in precious metals, but they have had periods where they haven't been allowed to. This could be a slow, heavy tide of demand. I will certainly be accumulating alongside these good "folks" (look! I can be as down to earth as the politicians!)

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 17:07 | 684546 chopper read
chopper read's picture

i love it.  you can't go wrong referring to "folks". 

anyway, some anectdotal evidence from conversations here at the CBOT.  rumor has it (from a trader whose father is in the mining business down in South America) that China is going directly to gold mining countries for the purpose of developing new mines with reserves that will never see the open market but rather be acquired directly by the Chinese Central Bank. 

...sneaky, sneaky, sneaky.  :) 

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 00:58 | 682498 66Sexy
66Sexy's picture

yup we should all bend our knees and confess rothchild is lord of all.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 08:40 | 682631 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture


This attack of the investors goes to the heart of the confidence game of the Ponzi system.

Note that you, I, judges, Congress men, bankers, business men and women i.e. all of us, have reaped the benefits of the Big Ponzi by buying cars, houses, holidays, etc. Actually, we had fun, didn't we?

Now, after 40 years of cheap money, La-la-land will come to an end and an adjustment of 80-90% MUST come. Our only problem is we don't know when.

Our esteemed investors are fighting the last ray of hope that the wealth of our society is not imaginary, but real. They are attacking all of us.

But let's get it over with. Burn it down and have a fresh start.



Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:13 | 681820 AGORACOM
AGORACOM's picture

Short $JPM, long SLV

It is getting harder and harder for Wall Street / Elite manipulators to fight the masses who have had enough.  If you hate lawyers, this is the time to love them.  From mortgages to silver, they are going to lead the fight.

Only a matter of time before GATA / Ron Paul and others are proven right with respect to gold market manipulation.


George ... The Greek .... From Canada

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:13 | 681828 Minion
Minion's picture

Been short since the explosion to the downside last week.  :)

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:37 | 682020 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

And GLD is HSBC, ergo...

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:51 | 682059 boooyaaaah
boooyaaaah's picture

Maybe George already knows that

Maybe George is a salesman working for JPM

When JPM pulls out the rug then George will be rich

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:20 | 682117 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Avoid SLV, get physical silver only.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:55 | 682400 Rahm
Rahm's picture

Physical is money, and nothing else!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:02 | 681937 XitSam
XitSam's picture

The lawyers are not doing this because they are pure of heart.  They are doing it for their cut of the settlement if they win.  

Oh, and how long does anyone think this suit will take? I would say 18 months before it even goes to trial. A lot can happen in the meantime.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:30 | 682001 Unlawful Justice
Unlawful Justice's picture

Sharks eating sharks,

A real shark-fest gladiator arena.

Mutual destruction sequence..................... commence.

Sharks smell fear, but can they smell the their own fear?


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:08 | 682087 CPL
CPL's picture

No one in here will see the end of it, because it will be simplely forgotten when the first shots are fired by some loon and the war starts.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:23 | 682225's picture

The lawyers are not doing this because they are pure of heart.  They are doing it for their cut of the settlement if they win.


Are we to assume that you refuse payment for services you render?

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 14:40 | 684007 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Of course not, but their cut will probably be 40% of hundreds of millions, while the members of the class get a pittance, like a 10% discount on the next 5 oz bar purchased.  See the tobacco settlement. A lawyer should get his full hourly rate, not a percentage.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 06:48 | 682538 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"I would say 18 months before it even goes to trial."

Au contraire. I'd suggest the defendants will offer a handsome early settlement before too much discovery is conducted.

OTOH, while lawyers jump at settlements, well-heeled plaintiffs sometimes prefer to force a public trial for reasons other than financial gain.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 14:43 | 684017 XitSam
XitSam's picture

No argument the defendants will try mightily to settle. As a class-action, I don't think the lawyers are free to cut any deal they want. I think everyone should join the class and vote for trial.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:59 | 681943 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You do know that JPM and HSBC are the custodians for SLV, right?  I'm thinking this is going to bankrupt those two firms, and their vaults will be found to be empty, or at least double sold, at which point SLV is going to do a nose dive while physical silver bores a hole straight through the moon, Looney Toons style.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:20 | 681979 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

And while we're discussing JPM and HSBC, we'll mention that they issued statements to the effect that they do not audit their gold and silver holdings, nor do they require that custodians or subcustodians do any audits.  Or much of anything else.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 00:54 | 682490 chopper read
chopper read's picture

yep, they just take Jerry's word for it because he's friend with Joe down at the corner store.  its all straight-up for the most part.  if it gets confusing they check with Lenny who keeps track of it on the back of a napkin most of the time.  its pretty organized, really.  so there's nothing to worry about.  

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:29 | 681997 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

two words: take delivery.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:50 | 682057 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Good point.  This does not even need to get past the discovery phase to kill them off.  My 1st interrogatory would go something like:  "Please state to the nearest 100lbs the amount of silver bullion in JPM vaults that backed the JPM trades between January 1, 2005 to January 1, 2008." 

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:10 | 681821 Lady Heather...UNCLE
Lady Heather...UNCLE's picture

OK..I'll do it


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:11 | 681825 malusDiaz
malusDiaz's picture

no no no, its





Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:43 | 681905 fasTTcar
fasTTcar's picture

Cold, hard, shiny BULLION Bitchez...

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:28 | 682232's picture

Thank you for being a friend,
Traveled down the road and back again,
Your heart is true, you're a pal and a confidant.

And if you through a party,
Invited everyone you ever knew,
You would see the biggest gift would be from me,
And the card attached would say thank you for being a friend.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:26 | 682347 Walter_Sobchak
Walter_Sobchak's picture

The Golden Girls ain't dead yet.  Those bitches gonna shoot clear to heaven.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:37 | 682022 ShankyS
ShankyS's picture

Sorry, I fat fingered the junk button. My bad.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:11 | 682316 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Hit it again and it will un-junk.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:11 | 681824 malusDiaz
malusDiaz's picture


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:14 | 681830 moofph
moofph's picture

..."watershed case that finds two of the biggest manipulators finally guilty?"

only if justice is served...and there are enough people in the country that still realize what justice means.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:11 | 682207 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

CFTC just ruled against Judge Painter's request (which was the scandal back a couple of hundred hours or so -- it is so hard to remember them all): 

In an order dated Oct. 25 the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) denied the request of retiring Administrative Law Judge George H. Painter to have his remaining cases reassigned to a judge detailed from another agency.


Two weeks ago we reported that Painter had made the request in a notice sent to complainants and their attorneys in his remaining cases based on his belief that they would not get a fair hearing from the remaining CFTC administrative law judge Bruce Levine.


Painter alleged that Levine told him that he had promised former CFTC Chair Wendy Gramm “that he would never rule in a complainants favor” and added that a review of his rulings confirmed his bias. Painter also attached a December 2000 Wall Street Journal story by Michael Schroeder titled, “If you got a beef with a futures broker, This Judge Isn’t for You—In  Eight Years at the CFTC, Levine Has Never Ruled In Favor of an Investor” that details Levine’s penchant for favoring brokers over investors seeking reparations.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:29 | 682239 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:28 | 682350 TheDriver
TheDriver's picture

Why are you surprised, MsCreant? Surely you read that timely and dutifully researched article in the WSJ that documented Painter's alcoholism and questionable sanity.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 00:57 | 682494 chopper read
chopper read's picture

everyone knows that if you drink a few too many that you forgo your rights under the Constitution.  sheesh. 

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:15 | 681834 Brutlstrudl
Brutlstrudl's picture

Ted Butler for president, Bitchez

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:16 | 681837 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

Sorry, they were acting under a national security double secret POMO/congressional backstop program and cannot be sued. Those filing can be brought up on terrorism charges by causing instability in the FED ponzi scheme and sent to Gitmo.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:35 | 681868 saulysw
saulysw's picture

I fear there is a lot of truth to your tounge-in-cheek comment.

Probably the best we can hope for is that there is more publicity on this issue and manipulation becomes harder to achieve from this point onward.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:42 | 681901 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

You sir/ma'am have an excellent sense of humor.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:30 | 682354 Walter_Sobchak
Walter_Sobchak's picture

Gitmo has some nice beaches, and a tiki bar I'm exceptionally fond of...

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:16 | 681838 tahoe69
tahoe69's picture

This will be settled with a fine. That's how financial business is done. Its in the business plan cheat now pay small consequences later.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:16 | 681839 Turd Ferguson
Turd Ferguson's picture


Seriously, this is a big fucking deal. Chilton comments coming at a time when the silver Comex is having major, significant delivery problems can combine to create the "perfect fucking storm" to take down the Evil Empire.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:30 | 681869 Goldenballs
Goldenballs's picture

Right on Turd.Lets give em a taste of their own medicine.Pretty sure there is a lot of nations buying and demanding physical to pay back old scores against the Evil Empire,China,Iran,Bangladesh,Turkey,just to name a few.The wheels could well come off in the next few months as they promise physical they can,t purchase.F*****g great,can,t shaft you on the battlefield but we,ll just keep buying until you have no physical left.Perfect storm a comin.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:22 | 681988 Missing_Link
Missing_Link's picture

How do I sign up?  Someone post instructions please, I'm too lazy to figure it out on my own.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:23 | 682342 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I'm too lazy to post instructions!

What are we gonna do now?

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 00:39 | 682458 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Take a sip from the little bottle you found (watch out for the Grue!) :>D

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:01 | 681950 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Here's hoping they include owners of physical silver in their class action.  I would have sold all of mine for a huge profit had they not driven down the price and sunk my friend's boat with all my gold and silver on board ;)

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:17 | 681840 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Outcome = Nothing

Against national security!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:17 | 681841 brushfire
brushfire's picture

and there you have it

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:18 | 681844 Lndmvr
Lndmvr's picture

How far back do we have to show buying reciepts to be part of the class?

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:19 | 681846 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Agreed, Mr. Ferguson.  And that coming just a week after the CFTC judge retired and ratted out his colleague.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:13 | 682211 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

"Ratted out" is such loaded phrasing.  I much prefer "did God's work."

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:19 | 681847 Gordon Freeman
Gordon Freeman's picture

TGP is right: the case is either going to 1) get thrown out 2) settled for a pittance, with no admission of guilt.

I don't like it, but what have the actions of TPTB been showing us all along?

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:23 | 681850 pachanguero
pachanguero's picture

take physical delivery of your silver and gold!


Fuck the New World Order!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:12 | 681966 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

taken a step further.. your a yellow bellied traitor and a sell out to your country men if you own any paper versions of gold/silver.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:25 | 682229 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

I was thinking about selling some of my golden doubloons and buying some Chinese solar stocks. i heard you can make a killing do that.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:36 | 682362 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

High Plains,

Ironically you may be on to something and Leo will be proven right for all the wrong reasons.

With a rare-earth lock down, Chinese solars soon may be the only affordable game in town....hmmmmmm...

And Silver, it's the story folks. Not for nothing all this fast, co-ordinated noise, CFTC member's getting a conscience, class action lawsuits and the like.


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:57 | 682070 boooyaaaah
boooyaaaah's picture

OK i'll take delivery of my 100 oz of gold

Now I am safe --- I have $130,000 and the price will go up

But if the market is manipulated then the price can go down

And when it goes down it will go down fast and all of your bossom buddies gold bugs will run you over trying to get to the door first

Manipulation Bitches


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:23 | 682123 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Your speaking of the phony paper market, not the real physical one which is going to dominate the paper one.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 08:50 | 682937 chopper read
chopper read's picture

right,  because when the paper market goes to zero, no one will even accept your physical gold.  don't you know anything?  sheesh. 


"the most clever man in the world"

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:27 | 682234 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

The minute you buy some physical , there will be a major correction down, but that the nature of the beast. Just hold it and forget about it.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:26 | 682346 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

The Drifter has it right.  Almost always when I buy any PM, the price goes right down, until it goes up higher later on.  Some 85% of the gold I bought was at or near its "highest price ever".

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 08:52 | 682941 chopper read
chopper read's picture

buying the high is quite easy when we've got the "Bernanke Put". 

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:37 | 682364 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You really don't understand what it's all about. 

"Price" is a secondary consideration.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 05:29 | 682737 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:23 | 681851 Goldenballs
Goldenballs's picture

Wonder what the true unmanipulated price would be.Problem is if you stop manipulation in one place it will just appear somewhere else in a different guise.The more people wake up nto real wealth the harder for the Banksters to manipulate.Love to see a strike where workers demanded to be paid in Gold and Silver.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 02:06 | 682593 Johnny Dangereaux
Johnny Dangereaux's picture

Wonder what the true unmanipulated price would be?

I use the Coinage Act of 1792 as a guide....and the ratio of Gold to Silver found in the Earth's crust...kind of a Natural Law sort of kind of like thing,you know.....


Silver should be about 86 bux/oz now....minimum!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:25 | 681853 Goldenballs
Goldenballs's picture

Take Physical,bankrupt the Bastards.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:28 | 681855 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

If the White House "intelligence czar" can exempt public companies from SEC reporting requirements aka cook the books..........

Intelligence Czar Can Waive SEC Rules

Now, the White House's top spymaster can cite national security to exempt businesses from reporting requirements. can bet your bottom fiat dollar that there's some Presidential order or directive legally absolving these banks from manipulation of PM's "in the interest of national security". Bet on it.

Ever wonder why these banks/companies act as if they're above the law? That's because they are.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:46 | 681902 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Absolutely … right on.

Politics, gamesmanship, & perhaps a confidence extender ...
... that's all this will amount to. Oh, & if someone actually gets close to a legitimate conviction … well, let’s just say, tragedy will precede it.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:55 | 682179 RiffRaff
RiffRaff's picture

I hear you, but one would think that .gov would certainly not want to officially wade in and shut this down in such a clumsy and visible manner.  It would impugn the integrity of the free markets, such as they are, to publicly state that JPM is absolved of all guilt despite having perpetrated frauds that would put a "little person" in the big house until Y10K becomes an issue.

They're above the law until the rabble realize that they're below the law.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 05:08 | 682723 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

.....officially wade in and shut this down in such a clumsy and visible manner. 

Who said anything about wading in and shutting it down? They will only pull the Ace out of their sleeve when all else fails and not a moment too soon. Before doing so, they will execute every legal maneuver know to mankind. They might even get Congress to pass a law blessing them a la indemnity for telecom companies for wire tapping.

Don't be so foolish as to think just because they have indemnity they will use it immediately. But wouldn't you act differently if you knew no one could touch you, even if it was a secret?

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:34 | 682361 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I guess we are about to find out Cog Dis!

I will be following this closely for sure.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:27 | 681858 DonutBoy
DonutBoy's picture

Don't get it.  They had a huge short position in derivatives.  So what?  What's the gripe here - that they won?  If they'd have lost no one would be suing them, we'd all write stories about what idiots those JPM and HSBC guys were.  Winding down trading desks as evidence of a crime?  Ridiculous.  They're winding down their trading desks just like Goldman has ended prop trading.  Business decision, customers want their banks to be captial caretakers not traders.


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:29 | 681866 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Yup, you're right.

You don't get it.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:54 | 681930 DonutBoy
DonutBoy's picture

I'd be glad to be educated. The trouble with conspiracy theories is that they're never wrong.  They're either right or the truth stays hidden.  If China wanted to replace 1/4 of their treasuries with precious metals the price would rise.  I think they should.  They haven't.


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:59 | 681944 Goldenballs
Goldenballs's picture

For a long time China has been purchasing on the quiet,imagine the price rise if it was an official policy with set budgets.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:01 | 681951 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

" The trouble with conspiracy theories is that they're never wrong.  They're either right or the truth stays hidden"

There are credible conspiracy theories and absurd conspiracy theories (mostly false-flag ones).

We won't expect from JPM to publicly admit they manipulate prices.

But the manipulation is visible by everyone and will continue to be visible each day.

Like the lies of Da Pravda were visible by everyone. Yet, those who denounced those lies were called "conspiracy theorists", "fools", and "enemies of the State". Ask Solhenitszyne he'll tell you.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:41 | 682033 Unlawful Justice
Unlawful Justice's picture

The Fabians originally were an elite group of intellectuals who formed a semi-secret society for the purpose of bringing socialism to the world. Whereas Communists wanted to establish socialism quickly through violence and revolution, the Fabians preferred to do it slowly through propaganda and legislation. The word socialism was not to be used. Instead, they would speak of benefits for the people such as welfare, medical care, higher wages, and better working conditions. In this way, they planned to accomplish their objective without bloodshed and even without serious opposition. They scorned the Communists, not because they disliked their goals, but because they disagreed with their methods. To emphasize the importance of gradualism, they adopted the turtle as the symbol of their movement. The three most prominent leaders in the early days were Sidney and Beatrice Webb and George Bernard Shaw. [2] A stained-glass window from the Beatrice Webb House in Surrey, England is especially enlightening. Across the top appears the last line from Omar Khayyam:

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 22:45 | 682257's picture


Can't help thinking of Lambsy's cry from the 1969 Saturday morning cartoon, "It's the wolf! It's the wolf!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:38 | 682367 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

@Unlawful, I agree with Crockett, very interesting, thanks for sharing this with us.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 01:43 | 682567 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"an elite group of intellectuals who were encouraged and financed to form a semi-secret society"

There ... fixed it for you.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 09:06 | 682970 chopper read
chopper read's picture

Dear love, couldst thou and I with fate conspire
To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire,
Would we not shatter it to bits, and then
Remould it nearer to the heart's desire!

just your friendly conspirators conspiring conspirically.  ...i'm sure they are the only ones.


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:42 | 682378 Walter_Sobchak
Walter_Sobchak's picture

ask yourself "cui bono?"  why wouldn't they manipulate the price?  its profitable

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 08:02 | 682836 Cui Bono
Cui Bono's picture

Ok, OK, so I says to myself... Self, Cui Bono... And self says whaaaaat?
I haven't had my coffee yet....

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:26 | 682127 euclidean
euclidean's picture

hehe +1350; the SEC and CFTC have already shown their toothless nature even in light of the Flash Crash report, pitance fines imposed for noncompliance, and a distinct lack of governence of even basic GAAP rules for years - not to mention ignoring their own operating charters and constitutions.

So Congress is a prostitute, I'm sure we all have a price for silence. (The Fed is still trying to establish it for the sheeple). I'm surprised so many in the US take even more dumbing down so routinely. Invoking national security issues in the widespread corruption is genius - absolute power corrupts absolutely!

Auditors such as KPMG, Deloitte and PWC should not be left out of the equation. These should be frontrunning the reporting in any case and failed in their duty to report.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 01:18 | 682532 themosmitsos
themosmitsos's picture


Right on :)

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:44 | 682374 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Don't get it.  They had a huge short position in derivatives.  So what?

They had their thumbs on the scale.  Fair and transparent trades were not the norm.

You read the article?   How about the complaint?

The manipulation has been documented by many commentators over the years.

You must be new to the issue.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:28 | 681862 DonutBoy
DonutBoy's picture

Don't get it.  They had a huge short position in derivatives.  So what?  What's the gripe here - that they won?  If they'd have lost no one would be suing them, we'd all write stories about what idiots those JPM and HSBC guys were.  Winding down trading desks as evidence of a crime?  Ridiculous.  They're winding down their trading desks just like Goldman has ended prop trading.  Business decision, customers want their banks to be captial caretakers not traders.


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:36 | 681891 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

It doesn't stop at just having a big short position. We are in a situation where Wall Street impeaches the free market by having recourse to dishonesty, fraud, arrangement and monopoly.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:54 | 681932 Bartanist
Bartanist's picture

Well, it is a naked short position reported to be to the tune of 100:1 of the physical in existence. They can't actually counterfeit silver, so they counterfeit the paper.

They would lock us all up for selling 100 times what we actually had with intention or capability to deliver ... and pocketing the cash to use on other schemes and pay embezzled bonuses.

But for JPM, it is "just a short position".

... and then there is the published Andrew McGuire evidence showing telegraphing the JPM manipulation to "those in the know".

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:31 | 681994 Rick64
Rick64's picture

On March 25th at the CFTC Public Hearing on Precious Metals GATA made a dramatic revelation of a whistleblower source, Andrew Maguire, who has first hand evidence of gold and silver market manipulation by JPMorganChase and who has even tipped off the CFTC in advance of manipulative attacks on gold and silver. Just as in the Madoff case the regulator has done nothing to stop such manipulation.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 04:27 | 682681 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"On March 26th while out shopping with his wife, Mr. Maguire's car was hit by a car careening out of a side road. The driver of the vehicle then tried to escape. When a pedestrian eye-witness attempted to block the driver's escape he accelerated at him and would have hit him had the pedestrian not jumped out of the way. The car then hit two other cars in escaping. The driver was apprehended by the police after police helicopters were called in and following a high speed chase.


Andrew and his wife were hospitalized with minor injuries."

I never saw any follow-up on what happened to the apprehended hit-and-run driver.

McGuire cc'd Chilton in on his allegations during January and February and had to threaten to go public before he even got an acknowledgement of receipt of his "inside information" emails to the CFTC. 

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 14:53 | 684066 Rick64
Rick64's picture

 I can't find any info on the drivers identity or the cause of the accident. Nothing .

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:33 | 682009 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

 There should be position limits to prevent over control from such a large player in the market, ask the Hunt Brothers about it. They got into a little trouble going long the same way, but they were not so well connected.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:43 | 682162 euclidean
euclidean's picture

DB - dude it was 'naked selling' by a factor of 100:1 in a small physcial market. For every 1 ounce that existed to be plundered  purchased, 100 imaginery ounces was being sold. Still don't see this as price fixing?

If they are winding down their trading desks, it might be due to either/all of

1. A shortage of fictional/farcical/fractional/fraudulent debt instruments 

2. A reduction in naked Ponzi positions to be committed to memory

3. A decrease in the number of moronic investors eager to participate in the rape of the century

4. Computer algorithms that replace 100 people with overheads at 15c an hour, no health care and no attitude 24/7/365.

They might be getting rid of people, but are now conducting business as usual in 15ms increments.

Thu, 10/28/2010 - 04:04 | 682670 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Your confusion sows a lack of trading experience and an unsound knowledge of the CFTCs regulations on position limits and their "consternation" on someone cornering a commodity market, but only on the long side.

When the zinc market "short" sellers cornered the market wit promises to deliver what wasn't there to deliver, (2008 I believe) the LBMA rescued the shorts by letting them call Force Majeure" and changed the rules to let the longs find another source of supply with no penalty for the failure of the shorts.

You can bet your blue boots that the same will occur in the silver market at the COMEX, which is why you should only be an in and out trader on the COMEX and take physical delivery on your contracts with them if you choose a longer term strategy. Moms and dads, just buy physical and turn your backs on the judicial system and the banks. Works for me.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:29 | 681864 Gold Man Sucks
Gold Man Sucks's picture

Its another straw on JPMORGAN's back.

Just because hitting a branch a couple of times and it does not break,does not mean that it will not break by the tenth or sixtienth time.

Hit,hit and breaking time comes closer everytime.

By the way,where the fuck is Gordon Geko?

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:32 | 681878 saulysw
saulysw's picture

Where is GG? Hidden in a hill somewhere, on a huge pile of gold and silver, giggling like a maniac.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:43 | 681906 Gold Man Sucks
Gold Man Sucks's picture

Maybe GG's ounces are open pitable.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:43 | 682382 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Yeah, I miss Gordon_Gekko, Chumbawamba and dumpster!  Three of my fellow "Hold physical only" gold guys.

Good thing I have guys like Rocky & Hulk (and ladies like MsCreant) around to push everyone to financial safety: physical gold!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:48 | 682390 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

We are Sisyphus, and that rock is heavy.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:31 | 681871 doolittlegeorge
doolittlegeorge's picture

BASTARDS! I'm shocked!  SHOCKED that there's GAMBLING going on around here.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:34 | 681879 Kassandra
Kassandra's picture

You beat me to it!!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:39 | 681897 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

An appropriate line, since the other words spoken by Captain Renault in that scene are "This cafe is closed until further notice.  Clear the room at once". 

Force Majeur?

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:54 | 681929 covered
covered's picture

Don't forget, "your winnings, sir."

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 23:46 | 682387 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

LOL, SWR and covered!

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:34 | 681881 non-anon
non-anon's picture

Since 2004, 2008? gov stole my silver from the Norfed aka Liberty Dollar warehouse. I have written two letters to the judges on this "case" against the Liberty 5 that is still on continuence with no trial date set. No response and no return of my property.


Don't take paper but physical delivery on your precisous metals. If you hvae ETF's or warehouse receipts, take physical delivery and help break the cartel.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:34 | 681882 saulysw
saulysw's picture

One question : why has silver not reacted to this news?

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:36 | 681888 Goldenballs
Goldenballs's picture

Its not allowed to.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:12 | 681965 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Case closed.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 21:44 | 682163 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

When the news of this lawsuit gets to Asia, you'll start to see a gradual climB (or even a spike to $25) when the metals dealers start loading the "vig".  Muslims and Arabs will also react strongly.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:34 | 681883 azengrcat
azengrcat's picture

"Defendants have made large trades at key times"

I wish I could be that lucky...

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:36 | 681889 johnnymustardseed
johnnymustardseed's picture

This suit will take four years to move through the courts. They will continue their game. Sometimes it feels good to know the truth though. 

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:36 | 681890 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Let justice be done though the heavens may fall...... 


Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:37 | 681892 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

One of the points made in the complaint is that the Silver market has changed dramatically since the accusations were made.  If they think they are above the law, why have they backed off?  In a perverse (and childish) way, it's comforting to think they are all-powerful and they've got everthing covered.  What if the whole, incredibly crude and stupid, great corrupt pile of shit is coming apart faster than they can respond?  What if THEY are the deer in the headlights trapped by the compelling perceptual inertia of their own delusions?

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 19:43 | 681903 Goldenballs
Goldenballs's picture

What if their own computers become faster than them and the market becomes unstable with computers over correcting computers in a faster and faster trading scenario.

Wed, 10/27/2010 - 20:00 | 681946 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

the HAL moment

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