PK used the following chart to make his point. He uses it as proof that
US citizens pay a low tax rate. Krugman wants us to believe that
because we rank so low on this list we should be more than willing to
accept higher taxes to support that big government "we" all want.
It’s hard to argue with this list and the conclusions that PK draws from it. Let me try. This is the raw data that the chart Krugman used was based on:
First let me point out that the 2009 data for the USA (30.1%) was the
lowest in the 13 years of information presented. This is because the US
was in a recession in 08 and that always means lower tax
receipts. To make a statement, Krugman uses the most opportune data to
support his position. When you look at the past and projected numbers
you see that the US average of ~34% is right in line with Japan, Korea,
Australia and Switzerland.
For me, the most significant error by Mr. Krugman and his chart is that
he deliberately chooses to exclude exactly how high those tax rates are
in the countries he holds up as shining examples. Yes it is true, Norway
Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and France have higher taxes than does
America. But look what they are paying to get to the top of the list.
Respectively 56%, 56%, 54%, 53% and 49% of GDP. Who wants to be on the top of that list? I doubt the folks in Sweden or Denmark are so proud to have made it to the top.
What Mr. Krugman shows up as an example of “what we should do” is
actually a disaster. Mr. Krugman should get his head out of, well,
academia and start talking to Americans of all stripes. Liberals,
conservatives and all the folks in between. He won’t find one that will
stand up and support 50+% taxes on GDP. What may be acceptable in Sweden
is simply not going to sell in America.
If he bothered to ask a few economists what they thought 50%/GDP taxes would do for America he would also get an earful. That is just stupid bad policy.
It shouldn’t surprise us a bit when politicians like Ryan and Obama talk
about numbers and budgets and spin every chart to suit their agenda. It
quite another matter when Nobel economists do it.
Yes, the people jammering about free health care should consider this conundrum: how did we ever get 6.5B people on the earth when most have no health care? What people really need is good health whick is mainly clean water, air, proper sanitation, nutrition and exercise. Our health problems are extreme due to obesity and laziness. Insurance premiums should be scaled by body mass index! When you subsidize anything people demand more of it. Since the advent of big insurance and big government health care prices of services consistently exceed that of inflation as does education. There is no pricing mechanism. People abuse the free system: that's why they started co-pays. At least 1/3 of all medical procedures are fraudulent, drugs are overprescribed, and unnecessary tests run to generate income.
Krugman is a complete moronic imbecile.
"what a stock is worth is the present discounted value of the dividends on that stock - period, end of story. "
http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/dow36K.html
Guy is to stupid to realize anyone can sell stock at periodic intervals and create their own "dividends."
Norway is a commodity based economy and like all comodity based economies when the US trashes the dollar they reap the benefits.
Norway is also completely devoid of any innovation in anyone's lifetime here that has moved the human race forward. This is what happens when what would be R&D money or venture capital is siphoned off by an inefficient force like the government.
Sweden saw a mass exodus of wealth as their rates went skyward.
Most of Europe is dead broke with higher taxes than in the US. What is the price of petrol in Norway? How does that impact personal freedom? How many people own tanglibe property in Norway?
In the last 35years the US has seen a 50% increase in the population accompanied by a 600% increase in the number of federal employees.
Most of Europe is bankrupt, the most prosperous state in the US is bankrupt, all of urban America is bankrupt they all have egregious taxation and overwhelming governmental costs in common.
I realize most of these know nothing academics believe in an ordered existence where human innovation goes from step 1 to step 2 to step 3 which is incredibly inefficient if there is enough speculation that steps 2-4 can be skipped that only happens when the least likely most far out potentially highest yileding ideas get funding.
I realize most of these know nothing academics believe the poor and middle class are the risk taking, job creating entrpreneurs and not the wealthy.
I realize most of these know nothing academics don't believe higher taxes leads to higher prices.
I realize most of these know nothing academics don't believe the uber rich use the tax code to inhibit others from attaining their wealth and power.
I realize most of these know nothing academics still haven't figured out with a 600% increase in the size of the federal government in the last 30yrs that the amount of human innovation coming from the NIH or any other federal entity besides the military has been virtual nil the last 35yrs.
I realize that the US government could raise taxes to 90% and confiscate 90% of the wealth in America and still not cover the $14trillion in debt and the $70trillion in unfunded social obligations given the total wealth is only $60 trillion.
I realize that the 600% increase in government came with some percentage of no show jobs with gold plated benefits and retirees retiring at 50yo with pensions.
I realize academia is mostly funded with federal dollars and no matter how much of an abysmal failure the war on poverty has been no matter how abysmally they have watered down edcuation, no matter how they turned the US justice system into a revolving door, no matter how much of a plague single parent households are to urban America,
the big government liberal scumbags are never ever going away and will continue to promote their agenda regardless of the incredible number of epic fails in the past.
Well said. The retort of the useful idiots will, I expect, be something like this: "but we'll reform the tax code so that uber rich can't use it like that." Ah yes useful idiot, and what will be done about corruption in government? What's that you say, we'll reform it, and make it uncorrupt? Ah, brilliant, we never considered that option.
Har Har Har
Denmark is obviously a commodity based economy too.
and no one is dying to get into these countries on a daily basis for their boundless opportunities despite their supposedly superior quality of life and the impoverished currently loitering all over Europe-which is a joke and half.
The US poor live better than royalty does in most countries.
No one is travelling the world over for their supposedly superior educational opportunities or their alledgedly superior healthcare either.
Nothing more than the one world order nitwits trying to portray the earth as flat.
How big is the average living space for the average scandavian? About 1/3rd what the average poverty stricken individual occupies in America.
What percentage of scandanavians own cars? ABout 1/5th the percent of the poverty stricken in the US. What percent of Scandanavians own property? About 1/3rd the overty stricken individuals in the US.
The post that the avg Norwegian lives better than the average NC resident is borne of complete and total ignorance. Unless consider living in less space with less personal freedom and greater opportunity to succeed unimportant.
Lets kill two birds with one stone with a new tax policy. First a new Occupation classification
Bankster: A person engaged in the act of forcible extraction of value by use of fraud, bribes, misrepresentations of securities , fraudulent appraisals of asset valuations with significant liquid extractions of money from host city, state or country's treasury known as bonuses. Summary of L-BFEIN-GDS-WK-2010 stupidity act.
- Above act excludes any violent extraction of money or currency from a host person or building by usage of force as a monetary investment or theft of job site equipment by individual(s) with concurrent risk of bodily mutilation via large caliber handguns (see 7/11 $13.86-6H-SHOTS)
- ACT U-DM-MFKR-2011: Institutional forcible extraction of blood and treasure commonly referred to as war will be taxed at a flat 10% of a individuals net worth which will be evaluated by potential lifetime earnings of the individual and the family unit commonly referred to as Reverse Mark-to-lifetime earnings. This tax will be taken from the top section of balance sheet items referred to as current assets x Life expectancy using the well known ALGO SxUK-EMxDRY as performed and verified by a new body of international forensic accountants known as the IFA, a group of highly disciplined private individuals with proven track record of successful monetary interventions. Individuals will be trained in the use of deadly force. Mission statement "Yes You Will".
-Act CLW-BACK-BCHEZ-2011 will cover the period of the history of said individual or family unit with liquidation of all assets gained in aforementioned occupation going back as many years as is practicable.
Tax Relief Acts to commence upon the completion of the national day of looting, rape and pillaging of Wall Street,K Street, Greenwich CT and The Hamptons NY. A One Day Pass for ALL Americans to act on their darkest fantasies with no bag limit to be held annually with the exception of injury to any and all animals that aren't human.
How convenient sales taxes, property taxes, and state income taxes don't matter - except to the people paying them.
Last time I looked, Sweden, Denmark and Norway were all in better shape than Amerika.
Last time I looked, the people in Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea were all in worse shape than AmeriKKKa.
Hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Oh, you're serious!
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
Last time I was in Sweden (lovely country, wonderful people) the average person I met didn't feel they were in great shape.
I love ideologues of any stripe ... they are completed unimpeded by knowledge or critical thinking.
barliman
And another just because and brilliant:
'http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNVTUh5yviI
As long as Benny and the Inkjets can run the printing presses, the blue team/red team fight about taxes is just a sideshow.
My stepdaughter is about to marry a Dane. His tax rate is 66%. His country is often called the happiest in the world. We will be judged by how we treat the least among us, not the richest. Andrew Carnegie famously said,"A man who dies rich, dies disgraced.
How do you treat the people in India or Congo? I'm talking about you personally, not the faceless government that "represents" you. Have you given up the comforts of life so they can eat dinner? Do you contribute your 8 weeks of holiday to work in the hospitals?
O man, these useless idiots are H.I.L.A.R.I.O.U.S. Quoting Carnegie...HA! Thanks for a chuckle.
You wrongly conclude Carnegie thought the government should confiscate an individual's wealth via taxes. He was talking about voluntarily giving away money -- which he did in large sums -- not having the government confiscate it.
So the question for you (and everyone else who thinks the government should do so much more via higher taxes in order to help the least among us) is how do you personally treat the least among us? Have you downsized your living standard (which is very likely top quintile in the world) to live well below your means in order to help others by voluntarily giving away a meaningful (>10%) of your gross income to charity??
If not, seems very hypocritical to ask the government to tax others to do what you (and everyone else) can do personally -- but don't.
Bravo.
sorry ... double post
Yeah, but it gets boring! Why would anybody actually wanna be happy, when you can get the joy of an impossible pursuit of happiness, while the few lucky ones keep screwing you, your family, friends, and 90% of your fellow citizens?
The problem with taxes is that they are imposes for the wrong reasons. Profits should be tax highers. All expenses that add to the book value of a company on a YoY basis should be dollar for dollar tax deductible. This will end the chase of profits and start a corporate scramble to reinvest profits into tangible property. Some people call it investment.
The companies are still performing their fudiciary duty to add value to the company. Profits is not the only indicator of value. Tax the shit out of profits.
Let there be a periodic tax amnesty for the purpose of liquidating some of the accumlated assets with no income or capital gains tax if the property's sale value is remitted to shareholders as dividends.
I like your way of thinking. Whatever can be said about taxes, can be said in so many ways, but to come out after the sacred cow of profits. Now that's growing a pair.
The problem with taxes is that they are imposed for the wrong reasons. Profits should be taxed higher. All expenses that add to the book value of a company on a YoY basis should be dollar for dollar tax deductible. This will end the chase of profits and start a corporate scramble to reinvest profits into tangible property. Some people call it investment.
The companies are still performing their fudiciary duty to add value to the company. Profits is not the only indicator of value. Tax the shit out of profits.
Let there be a periodic tax amnesty for the purpose of liquidating some of the accumlated assets with no income or capital gains tax if the property's sale value is remitted to shareholders as dividends.
It's a good way to eliminate some of the control fraud . Those frauds are based on profits. They could have to completely fake the value of acquired property to have a control fraud based on acquisition of capital.
Absolutely .. value investment, tax the heck out of speculation, and seriously punish cheats and scammers ... problem solved!
In reality the law shuns a profit. (I read that in the margin of an old English Yearbook) A profit is the amount gained over par value. Profit is an unfair bargain on it's face.
There is no income tax on par/even exchanges of goods & services.
If the law really does shun profit, legally speaking, the fact income is so easily taxed is quite understandable. Profit is a public nusiance at this point.
Not to pick on Obama, he's no more a socialist than many, but was this Krugman's class?
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had once failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".
All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A....
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
Could not be any simpler than that.
I really doubt any US prof would fail a whole class - links please?
The flaw in your assumption is to equate working hard = good grades to working hard = wealth.
You problem is that you probably don't even know what wealth is.
And I'm laughing at that right now.
your flaw is thinking wealth = only measure of success
Never said that. However YOU were talking wealth: some key words from your post: economics, poor, rich, socialism, etc..
Not sure if Bruce had this in mind when he gave a title to the article but what the hey:
My Way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK3VbQV2csA
Krugman vs Krugman
Hack editorialist Paul Krugman attacked Jim Bunning last week for blocking the extension of unemployment benefits. Krugman said “What Democrats believe is what textbook economics says”, namely that the government should keep paying unemployment benefits.
There’s just one problem. As James Taranto pointed out, a Nobel Prize winning economist has written a very popular textbook that points out exactly what Republicans are saying — “Public policy designed to help workers who lose their jobs can lead to structural unemployment as an unintended side effect . . . . Generous unemployment benefits in some European countries are widely believed to be one of the main causes of “Eurosclerosis,” the persistent high unemployment that affects a number of European countries.”
The author? Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman and his wife Robin Wells.
Unemployment in Norway: 3.2%
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=z9a8a3sje0h8ii_&met=unemployment_rat...
Unemployment in Spain: 20.33%
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Unemployment-Rate.aspx?Symbol=ESP
Pretty fucking cold in Norway in the winter, so Mother Gaia took-care of the lay-abouts for them. The rest of the people, all roughly 5-million of them, all of them white and unicultural, work.
Good luck expanding that experiment to the 300-million person basket case in the middle of North America.
Participation rate in workforce? Hell we say we have 9.something unemployment, but we don't even count half the people that quit looking.
Will work for government stipends ;-)
Labor force of only two and half million with a public debt of 90% of GDP...a monarchy (an oligarchy), fully engulfed in Keynesism...yeah, this is the model we need here...wait a minute!...LOL.
Who would ever want a nation with high quality of life and low national debt like Norway. No wonder we have all these Norwegian immigrating to USA. They hate their taxes!!
+ brilliant
Don't have enough cash to emigrate. :-) all gone to government. Not to be picky, but if Norway is such a paradise......are people tripping over themselves to emigrate there? Don't know, but didn't think so.
yeah, actually people are...have you been there?, it is nice and rich...
have you been to Sweden, Germany, France, Denmark? All much higher tax countries than us...their roads are very nice, their businesses are doing very well, their workers make good wages, they get 6 weeks -8 weeks of vacation a years etc...I think US employers limit our vacation just so we don't so how well these Europeans live. 40 years ago we were better off than them, or similar, but now they have way better standard of living,way nicer countries even when you compare middle class to middle class...but when you start factoring all the poor we have in US, it is really ugly comparison...just of the pictures from Katrina vs disaster pics from Europe and Japan...was there one beater car in all of the Japan tsunami pics, on beat up old house in dis-repair? The standard of living in Europe and Japan ( until this disaster) way exceeds in US and we don't even know it, we are so stuck in the past.
What about Mexico, Cuba, and Venezuela? They all have high taxes and free medical care. Why not compare us to those countries?
Dude, don't blame the messenger ...
data is data, like it or not.
No - some prefer to stay
Edit: for good reasons like quality of life?
Is the upper chart accurate?
Yes.
I don't know but I have in-laws in Europe who attest to the outragous VATs (value-added taxes...how's that for an oxymoron). But remember - all of Europe is a nanny state with ridiculous payouts (virtually "free" higer education, medical care, etc.). It's a wash. Contrast invalidated.