PK used the following chart to make his point. He uses it as proof that
US citizens pay a low tax rate. Krugman wants us to believe that
because we rank so low on this list we should be more than willing to
accept higher taxes to support that big government "we" all want.
It’s hard to argue with this list and the conclusions that PK draws from it. Let me try. This is the raw data that the chart Krugman used was based on:
First let me point out that the 2009 data for the USA (30.1%) was the
lowest in the 13 years of information presented. This is because the US
was in a recession in 08 and that always means lower tax
receipts. To make a statement, Krugman uses the most opportune data to
support his position. When you look at the past and projected numbers
you see that the US average of ~34% is right in line with Japan, Korea,
Australia and Switzerland.
For me, the most significant error by Mr. Krugman and his chart is that
he deliberately chooses to exclude exactly how high those tax rates are
in the countries he holds up as shining examples. Yes it is true, Norway
Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and France have higher taxes than does
America. But look what they are paying to get to the top of the list.
Respectively 56%, 56%, 54%, 53% and 49% of GDP. Who wants to be on the top of that list? I doubt the folks in Sweden or Denmark are so proud to have made it to the top.
What Mr. Krugman shows up as an example of “what we should do” is
actually a disaster. Mr. Krugman should get his head out of, well,
academia and start talking to Americans of all stripes. Liberals,
conservatives and all the folks in between. He won’t find one that will
stand up and support 50+% taxes on GDP. What may be acceptable in Sweden
is simply not going to sell in America.
If he bothered to ask a few economists what they thought 50%/GDP taxes would do for America he would also get an earful. That is just stupid bad policy.
It shouldn’t surprise us a bit when politicians like Ryan and Obama talk
about numbers and budgets and spin every chart to suit their agenda. It
quite another matter when Nobel economists do it.
Higher education and medical care for everyone? How fucked up is that?
Higher education? I guess, if you want to learn your economic models from a rich politicans babysitting club that used a version of coal miners script. Wait..what?! Oh yes...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Baby-Sitting_Co-op
I don't think a lot of the people who claim to be Keynesian's have ever actually read his book - The Economic Consequences of the Peace. It is published free on Project Gutenberg.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/hein6.html
The Lenin quote is priceless...Like many other scholars, he found some wisdom at the end of his career.
If you want to really understand how the Constitutional money system that the founding fathers set up was supposed to work, I would suggest Coin's Financial School.
http://www.archive.org/details/coinsfinancialsc00harvrich
It contains the wisdom of people like Issac Newtown (Master of the Mint), etc. Many people don't understand that the thing missing in our current system is the free minting of gold, silver coins (should also add copper these days). Look on the internet for copies of old mint receipts. They really used to do that in this country. That brings the wealth out of people's sock drawers and puts it into circualtion without any usury and creates prosperity.
Congress is supposed to 'coin money' and 'regulate the value thereof'. They regulate the value of the coins to their intrinsic value..for instance, now it 'might' be a $50.00 coin for every ounce of silver and a $2000.00 coin for every ounce of gold brought to the mint, maybe add in a $1.00 1oz pure copper coin too.
As the prosperity of the country increases or decreases according to trade or wars, it might be necessary to regulate the value again and 're-coin' some new money.
If you have a silver quarter from 1964, it will still buy the same or more merchandise than it did in 1964 for if you cash it in for the silver content. No inflation on that quarter at all. What if the Social Security Insurance Fund was all saved away in a vault as silver quarters. Do you think we would be worrying? What if you would have saved $100.00 in silver half dollars from 1964? vs..putting away $100.00 in coin now?
Talk about creating jobs? People would line up around the block if they were getting paid in gold and silver coins.
In 1971 instead of just closing the gold window, Congress should have used it's authority to 'regulate the value thereof'.
Also, read about Andrew Jackson (aka Old Hickory) and the specie circular. Now, think about this question, why exactly did he want to prohibit people from using paper money to purchase public lands?
I'll swing that little coxxukker like a battle-ax
We are all going to die from the actions of our government...one way or another.
Japan is a prime example...who will be next?
I agree. Governments will kills us. However, looking at this chart from an economics perspective, I can't really discern which countries are rich, which are poor. Kick out Norway because of its North sea oil wealth. Kick out Australia because, well, it has a boomtown China wealth effect for the moment. The rest, I don't see where government taxation as a percent of GDP has much to say about the wealth of a nation. Not what I thought I would see. 'cepting it was the government that decided where the money was spent 'stead of you. I do have a problem with that. But it doesn't seem to decide which nations have a higher standard of living.
Kick out all the commodity based economies and see what happens.
OK that is a little over the top.
Why is that over the top in any subjective measurement?
Someone profits from the lifestyle sins some commit....Smoking kills yet PM continues unfettered. A fatty diet kills yet MCD sells it....Coal burning pollutes leading to illnesses, but it's too profitable to shut down....Wall Street jobbed the nation the past decade yet no clawbacks...Jobs sent to Mexico and China leaving many in a lurch...All in the name of profit...We can't get rid of the social safety net....I make $150K a year and pay taxes...I couldn't make this income in any other country....somewhere it is written, from each according to his ability to each according to his needs.
ROFLMAO!!!
"somewhere it is written, from each according to his ability to each according to his needs."
Yes, that is a slogan of Karl Marx's, believe it's in his Critique of the Gotha Program work. That's a good summary of communism and we all know how well communism has worked wherever it's been tried.
America was founded on Liberty, personal freedoms, etc - don't believe me look at our coinage through the centuries. There is always an inverse relationship between size of government/"safety nets" and personal freedom.
It's none of my business, or shouldn't be anyways, if someone want to smoke or eat McDonalsd so long as they aren't forcing me to do it and/or pay for their choices. Freedom - a lost concept apparently.
Thank you. Liberty and personal responsibility are sadly fading quickly in the US.
Everyone is a victim of some sort and lacks the ability to find their way through life. Government is all too ready to grab the power to "help" these dependent souls. Pathetic.
Yes, I agree. the south should stop receiving federal aid immediately. I'm sick of those leeches.
You've got a serious hard-on for the south, eh Masters?
LOL...seems to be consuming a lot of his time & energy.
I'm pointing at the hypocrisy of railing against social programs while not onbce mentioning all the federal aid the south receives which doesn't even account the amout they recieve via subsidies and from defense. It's never mentioned. So yes I dont like my hard earned money and taxes going to support a whole region and having people not even acknowledge it. It's called hypocrisy. If you dont see that the any debt reduction program is failed from the start without massive defense cuts you are not seeing the big picture. Do you think we should leave defense alone and only go after the sick?
As I pointed out to you on another thread...the entire defense budget could chopped and it wouldn't get to half the deficit spending in this years budget alone.
Are you comfortable with that? Good.
Now, where is the other 700 billion going to come from? What other departments are you going to do away with?
Keep in mind that now only half of Americans even pay federal income taxes.
And I still want an answer on the 52 trillion in wealth...where is it?...who has it?
Bruce, if you have a solid idea that will provide everyone healthcare without raising taxes, I am all ears....No one should be going without in a country as rich as ours.
Have you ever experienced an original thought? Can you articulate a sentence that doesn't consist of some jargon that you've been conditioned to think in terms of?
why should the government be in the business of providing anyone health care?
"a country as rich as ours" we didn't get those riches by giving out freebies.
We allowed Washington to grow into the insatiable beast it is today.
We promised pensions and "free" medical care to everyone over the age of 65, without any realistic way to pay for it.
We closed off our own energy resources and bought cheap oil from nutty Islamist societies stuck in a 15th century worldview.
Its time for the pain.
Bruce, one of your charts shows australia as the least taxing country,
how is that with a top rate tax of 48.5c in the dollar and 30c lowest rate?
The OECD data measure revenue as a percent of GDP. It is not a measure of what a top bracket is.
"No one should be going without in a country as rich as ours."
LOL...ummm, what?
Perhaps his definition of 'rich' is being trillions in debt?
Total wealth: 54.2 trillion. Debt: 14.2 trillion.
Leaving aside unfunded liabilities...are you attempting to stake some claim to any portion of the "wealth" that I have earned by my own labor over the course of my life?
If you are, you're on very dangerous fascist territory there Rickster.
It's not really your wealth just because you labored for it. It really belongs to fascists like Krugman and Rick because they want and need it for their little pet programs.
Uh, did you pick knee jerk repsonse for 1000? The poster above talked about how we are in debt and broke and i pointed out that we have 52 trillion in welath and 14 trillion in debt. So Im a facist for stating facts. How about you attack my arguments and not call me a facist. You do realize the irony of you ideology and realize what facism is, no?
That would be me Rick...not him.
What is this 52 trillion in wealth that you cite and where can it be found?...are you saying sell off the national parks?...what?
What is your point of saying 52 trillion in wealth if you will not say who has it and why it makes any difference in relation to the debt?...which is not 14 trillion by the way...but one thing at a time.
Where is the 52 trillion Rick?
Edit; I expect an answer to the 52 trillion dollar question Rick...or I'll dog your ass everytime I see you...I'm not lettin that shit slide like I did your Southern bigotry bullshit...just sayin hoss ;-)
I don't remember his name but one brilliant senator or congressperson did indeed on a taped interview say that more debt was good because it represented wealth.
Honest.
It was Pete Stark...he is quite an insane, incompetent, spittle spewing, economic moron.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjbPZAMked0
No doubt.
Heard that one time a picture of Teddy Kennedy was being circulated around congress where he was caught having sex on the deck of his yacht. Ernest Hollings takes a look at it and says - "well, I'm glad to see the esteemed senator from Massachusetts has changed his mind about offshore drilling".
This is my personal favorite of congressional idiocracy though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs23CjIWMgA
sharpest knife in the drawer
I also carry you leeches' "healthcare" on my hip. Where is it written we should all be medically cared for, for all our sins? Why should I pay just because you are a Lib?
Soon to be outlawed as are most vitamins and alternative medicines:
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/nevada-sb-412-to-make-felons-out-of.html
The Nobel Prize for anything but the hard sciences has lost its cred...Obama winning after two months? PK winning on a socialist agenda? Maybe Bruce Springsteen or Sean Penn will win the next Nobel Prize for Peace or economics. At this point the Nobel is a joke...
Yassir Arafat Peact Prize Laureat
Thanks again BK for posting. Hey, I lived in Europe and what's wrong with 56%? At least the trains run on time. Doesn't Blowhard Krugman remind you of...Ellsworth Toohey?
Bruce,
This guy's not worth your intelligence and assessment. He's a has been looking for more glory days.
I enjoy reading your posts.
Thanks, Bruce!
Krugman is just big upright walking penis.......wait, thats me - well he's an idiot in any event!
A 50% tax rate is what the US needs to provide the social safety net. This country needs a social safety net thanks to the shark infested waters that is Wall Street.
Bruce, please provide an arguement as to why we don't need a social safety net.
I never said we don't need a social safety net. We do. I wish it could be a big wide net. One where children had A+ health care to age 18. One where prenatal care was free and our (horrible) infant mortality rate fell.
I want seniors to get the best care. And yes, we have to provide a level of healthcare to those, including illegal immigrants, who have no options.
Maybe that is what you want too.
But now you have to face reality. We can't afford all those things. We are BROKE, BROKE, BROKE!!
Blame WS? Okay. But take them out of the equation and there is no safety net at all.
I can't give you a valid reason why we don't need a social safety net. But I could go on for a few hours about why we can't afford to do that.
We can't afford a saftey net but we seem to be affording a new war every year like the DoD is Hollywood. I'm sick of defense spening and our militaristic society that says no no no to any suggestion we cut down the military.
I'm sick of our welfare society that keeps creating new welfare programs every month as if millions of Americans were starving to death back in 2008.
I'm sick of it too. But its the southern states that are the leeches. I ctually don't think they are leeches but you think anyone who gets welfare is and the southern states recive the biggest amount of outlays. So, by your own words, why are you not railing agianst the south and their suckinf of the gov't teet. BTW, what region do you live in?
Wow, yet another ill informed ideologue putting forward the "prove a negative" argument.
Nowhere in his post does Bruce say we don't need a social safety net. He does say we don't need a 50+ % tax level.
Let's not play the game you propose - since it will require no effort on your part other than saying, "You're wrong." to any point with which you disagree .
As as pop quiz, select the answer below that most closely correlates with the corrrect answer to the question, 'In how many countries with a "social safety net" is a citizen allowed to opt out of their country's retirement program with the understanding they will be responsible for their own survival after they retire?'
A) None
B) 10%
C) Over 50%
D) None of the above
Tick tock, the quiz has started.
barliman
In your scenario, wouldn't it be better to just thin out the sharks?
If you actually want a cogent response stop speaking in bullshit politico newspeak.
I don't know what the fuck a "social safety net" is and therefore, refuse to address your question.
++
Another talking points guy. He doesn't know what he means either, and really there is nothing stopping someone from relocating to a country that offers more to them that they think they want. Last I heard they weren't beating down doors to get in to any of these contries at the top of the list.