PK used the following chart to make his point. He uses it as proof that
US citizens pay a low tax rate. Krugman wants us to believe that
because we rank so low on this list we should be more than willing to
accept higher taxes to support that big government "we" all want.
It’s hard to argue with this list and the conclusions that PK draws from it. Let me try. This is the raw data that the chart Krugman used was based on:
First let me point out that the 2009 data for the USA (30.1%) was the
lowest in the 13 years of information presented. This is because the US
was in a recession in 08 and that always means lower tax
receipts. To make a statement, Krugman uses the most opportune data to
support his position. When you look at the past and projected numbers
you see that the US average of ~34% is right in line with Japan, Korea,
Australia and Switzerland.
For me, the most significant error by Mr. Krugman and his chart is that
he deliberately chooses to exclude exactly how high those tax rates are
in the countries he holds up as shining examples. Yes it is true, Norway
Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and France have higher taxes than does
America. But look what they are paying to get to the top of the list.
Respectively 56%, 56%, 54%, 53% and 49% of GDP. Who wants to be on the top of that list? I doubt the folks in Sweden or Denmark are so proud to have made it to the top.
What Mr. Krugman shows up as an example of “what we should do” is
actually a disaster. Mr. Krugman should get his head out of, well,
academia and start talking to Americans of all stripes. Liberals,
conservatives and all the folks in between. He won’t find one that will
stand up and support 50+% taxes on GDP. What may be acceptable in Sweden
is simply not going to sell in America.
If he bothered to ask a few economists what they thought 50%/GDP taxes would do for America he would also get an earful. That is just stupid bad policy.
It shouldn’t surprise us a bit when politicians like Ryan and Obama talk
about numbers and budgets and spin every chart to suit their agenda. It
quite another matter when Nobel economists do it.
it's very hard to gain long-term visas in these countries. They dont want people...at least americans that want more than slave wages. Germany may be the exception and if you're like me you are looking for a place to run to before this game ends.
A "social safety net" is what I pack on my hip.
Hmmm....so much for rugged individualism I guess. :-)
Hey peni, did you see where the Iceland Penis Museum just got its' first human specimen? It's in Tyler's Onion IPO thingliemabob.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110412/ap_on_fe_st/eu_iceland_penis_museum
Perfect for a bankrupt country. A Penis Museum!
Call in the IMF and World Bank!
Collateral Galore!
Ben, add this to your "Other Asset" line item on the Fed BS! (Bullshit or Balance Sheet?)
Majority of pen..guins visiting it for sure! Not sure if the womenfolk flock to it...
gotta keep your priorities straight! :-)
Look in a mirror.
+ not sure I agree with you but lol
What is it about the NY Times that attracts loonie tunes like Krugman and Maureen Dowd?
No wrong question...
What is it about Paulie and Maureen that attracts people?
No. But getting closer.
Who the fuck in their right mind pays any serious attention to people like Paul Krugman and Maureen Dowd?
Good.
Why do Paul Krugman and Maureen Dowd deserve to be elevated past entertainment value?
Excellent!
Think I'll rest on my laurels with that and go drop a loaf in celebration. Thinkin' of them works better than a smoke and java in the morning!
Sorry have to respectfully disagree wrt to Maureen Dowd - one of the few to come out against the Iraq war way back when:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-americanpower/article_1457.jsp
And now Libya - almost like we are following a playbook (whoops).
Even a stopped watch is correct twice a day. She's still a moron.
Agree to disagree on this?
+1!
What's the NYT?
I'm guessing you have never mingled with the limousine liberals on the Upper West Side of Manhattan in New York City. They are the Golden God and Goddess of rich "retards" (Hangover pronunciation)...
Oh lordie, lordie, lordie...."
Having worked for 10+ years in mid-town Manhattan in the financial business, I fortunately spent an indeed, inordinate, overdose, frankly debilitating, way the fuck beyond any sane person's time, in formal purgatory with enough self-absorbed, ego maniacal, impolite, politically correct, fabulously wealthy, income redistributionists (who BTW spend an inordinate amount of money on not paying taxes) that were just shy of being eliminated from the human gene pool by about half of the folks with whom they worked. They were some of the most impolite, false, aggravating and frankly incompetent, political, festering, open running sore excuses for humanity that I've ever had the displeasure to have experienced. And they one and all, loved the NY Times.
And I did note "fortunate" with whom to have worked. For in my opinion, there is absolutely no means by which one might otherwise fully comprehend the depth and depravity of the modern economic sociopath, than by having been there, done that.
It indeed uncomfortably touches ones very soul.
"They were some of the most impolite, false, aggravating and frankly incompetent, political, festering, open running sore excuses for humanity that I've ever had the displeasure to have experienced. And they one and all, loved the NY Times."
And yet, they have incredible self esteem...LOL.
Well said.
TAXES BITCHEZ!
I expect less of a Economics Nobel Laureate, not more.
Why do you think no politician leader will seriously push for a simplified tax code; real political contribution reform, work-for-welfare...?
Because they all involve the core of our corrupt political system controlled by the big banks.
It's a hopeless mess. Given how beaten-down, on-the-gov't teat & uneducated voting Americans are there is no solution.
I take joy in my family. And I look forward to May 21st; the take-two of the end-of-the-world pastor who pretends to know God's plan; should be entertaining...it's the little things!
Why waste good electronic ink on this guy?
Because, regardless of what you think of his economics, he does have influence on policy makers.
Fella I know at Notre Dame is using Krugman's books for his economics eduation. Seems about as mainstream as you get, so no wonder we're a nation of thumb sucking Keynsian know-nothings.
Also, what Krugman doesn't point out is those who pay no income taxes at all...which is around half the population.
Mr. Krugman should go to all those making 20k-40k and say hey!...you really need to give yourself a pay cut...give dot gov half of your income like all these neato pateeto european countries on this fine chart I have here...just imagine how much more DC could do with half of your income!
Tough sell Paulie ;-)
Mr. Krugman, as CEO of GE, I would like our taxes to be reduced to less than 0 next year; how about a 1 billion dollar tax credit?
++++
I think you missed PK's point,
"Clearly, we need to cut taxes even further so as to balance the budget."
The size of govenment needs to be reduced AND Corporate Welfare (Bush Tax Cuts) needs to go.
(I'm trolling tonight, lets see how many junks I get)
Sux, but curious how that's all Bush - haven't we had a democrat congress since Jan. '07 that hasn't tightened that up?
Most of on this site know it really doesn't make a damn bit of difference who's in there, democrat or republican, they all bow down and give blow jobs to the elite. You are misplacing your anger by singling out just Bush.
Other points well taken though.
Well, I didn't junk you...but corporations have the ability to pass anything on to the end user, that is, the customer, to keep profit stable.
Hey!...I'm trolling tonight too...let's talk about government running a surplus vs. a deficit (just for something different)...I say government running a surplus is over taxation of the people...how bout you? ;-)
No junk here. This is something we all should keep in mind. GE 14+ B in profits 0 in taxes.
Bruce, the USA wasn't alone in a recession in 2008 was it? I would agree that using an average of 10 years of tax rates might yield a more fair result. While I agree that few if any of us wants to be in a 50% tax bracket, I would prefer higher taxes to the current republican plan to cut taxes for wealthy Americans even further while suggesting we put senior citizens at the mercy of the health insurance industry.
If you prefer higher taxes then pay higher taxes. Nobody is forcing any Democrat to claim deductions or expenses on their tax returns.
I prefer freedom to the Democrat plan of economic enslavement. Back then, the slaves were forced to work and all the fruits of their labor went to the plantation owners. The slaves were given "free" housing, food, and healthcare by their masters. The slaves had not a worry in life as long as they obeyed their master. You would have been a good slave.
The question everyone misses is, What do their citizens get for the taxes they pay? The "safety net" in these countries is much better and health care is free for everyone. But of course that's just un-American.
Yes, the safety net in Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy. Who's next?
Healthcare is "free"? How stupid can you be? Do the nurses and doctors not get paid? Does their medicine grow on trees? Do the hospital fairies build their hospitals?
Look at the data. The high tax countries had steady tax levels pre/post 2008. Sweden did go down, but from 60 to 56% (WTF?). Using the 09 data makes for the most "compelling" example. It's just spin.
My gripe is with anything that is over the top. Krugman setting Sweden and Denmark as an example of what America should do is over the top.
You will get your higher taxes. Those benefits you're worried about will get cut too.
Yeah, I agree on the over the top remark - he cherry picked his data. (And as someone who works in tech - have had pressure on me to do the same thing numerous times when analyzing data).
But I also agree with nowhereman below - having lived both in the US and Canada, I will take the slightly higher taxes (and on a downward trend in Canada) for universal healthcare. And as I've pointed out a number of times, corporate taxes in Canada are lower than they are in the USA.
The whole tax issue needs much more analysis. PK throws out his policy soundbites but with meagre analysis. Where does the money go? And please no one liners that it is going to pork for the Repubs or it is going to unions for the Dems. I'm sure the information is out there somewhere.
And the 2009 Australia number surprised me. Somewhat anomalous unless I missed something there (which is possible ;)
Yes, truly a mystery. <slaps forehead>
Have you seen the tar sands after the tar has been taken out?
Canada pays for their free health care by destroying the environment.
We can not do those kind of things here in the USA.
People like Krugman would never allow it down here. We must protect the worlds environment or else we are bad.
But Canada can rape the turf!!!!!
Keep telling yourself that it is the taxes paid by the citizens. lol
without the contribution of the Alberta "tar" sands to the canadian economy, the canadian economy would be toast. The billions spent annually on exploration and development has a significant velocity from raising real estate values especially in the west, purchases of services and materials = more jobs, thousands of worker commute from other parts of canada supporting their local communities by bringing home the wages or the unemployment cheques.
Ft. MacMurray is a toxic place, been there, and most of it is controlled by foriegn oil companies.
FYI. Canada pays for its health care by taking on more debt. The oil sands enjoy a royalty holiday untill the development costs are paid off. That is after the banksters have been paid off. So there is comparatively little revenue coming directly from resource severance royalties. The revenue is extracted from wages and supplier bussiness taxes.
Mmmm, universal health care was introduced long before we started developing the oil sands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2oUInTUlAM&feature=player_embedded#at=186
Introduced single payer and Keifer Sutherland's grandfather (for trivia buffs). In 2004 voted greatest Canadian.
Wiki article (always suspect but good starting point) on Canadian health care system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada
How much do these countries pay for their defense as opposed to what we pay for ours and theirs (NATO for example)? I don't know the answer but always suspected they can offer there citizens real services given they don't have to pay for much in the way of defense.
But, the point people seem to miss is that there is an inverse correlation to the size of government and personal liberty. My take, even here on this site, is most don't really care about that aspect.
We have to police the world so our Bankstas and MNCs can pilfer offshore without paying taxes.
Excellent post, Bruce. Krugman was a panalist during last night's PBS News Hour, and he was somewhat insulting and an acedemic bully.
I heard P-Krug has grown fond of bitchslapping people with his Nobel...and you know that's cold.
Now that is really funny, an "academic bully" (fixed the little typo for ya), like saying someone is insultingly honest?
Yes, because academics certainly NEVER use their educational credentials as a proxy for a coherent argument.
Also, when has someone with a PhD ever been incorrect?
+ unjunk
If one calls another an academic bully, well, they should spell it correctly.
But if the government doesn't get bigger, what will we all do for a living?
.
Just like doing the math problems, eh?