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Kyodo Reports Cooling System At Third Nuclear Power Plant Fails
Breaking news from Kyodo: the cooling system at Tokai, a third nuclear power plant now said to have cooling failures, has stopped according to the fire department. Tokai was Japan's first nuclear power plant. The plant has two reactors: a 1965 built Magnox-type 166MW, and a 1978 built Boiling Water Reactor generating 1100MW. As Wikileaks reports: "This Boiling Water Reactor was the first nuclear reactor built in Japan to produce over 1000 MW of electricity. By some formalities in the paperwork, the unit is technically separate from the rest of the nuclear facilities at Tokai-mura, but it is managed with the rest of them and even shares the same front gate. The power produced at the unit is sold by both the Tokyo Electric Company and the Tohoku Electric Company." SkyNews adds that the cooling has failed at the bigger, BWR reactor.
Location of the Tokai plant, which is just south of the two Fukushima complexes... and only 100 km from Tokyo:
And the token picture:
A quick summary of the reactors:
Unit 1
This reactor was built based on British developed Magnox technology. Unit 1 will be the first nuclear reactor to be decommissioned in Japan. The experience in decommissioning this plant is expected to be of use in the future when more Japanese plants are decommissioned. Below is a brief time-line of the process.
* March 31, 1998: operations cease
* March 2001: last of the nuclear fuel moved off-site
* October 4, 2001: decommissioning plan announced
* December 2001: decommissioning begins, spent fuel pool is cleaned
* 2003: turbine room and electric generator taken down
* Late 2004: fuel moving crane dismantled
* 2011: the reactor itself is dismantled
Unit 2
This Boiling Water Reactor
was the first nuclear reactor built in Japan to produce over 1000 MW of
electricity. By some formalities in the paperwork, the unit is
technically separate from the rest of the nuclear facilities at
Tokai-mura, but it is managed with the rest of them and even shares the
same front gate. The power produced at the unit is sold by both the Tokyo Electric Company and the Tohoku Electric Company.
A quick summary of all Japanese power plants:
»
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Volcano eruption in Russia
http://dawnwires.com/politics/volcano-eruption-in-russia-now-triggered-by-japan-tsunami-and-volcano/
Stupid is as stupid links.
I thought you were being mean, but that site is a FAIL.
Its only 75miles or so North of Tokyo.
No wonder the French ( with their leading Nuke Tech) put out a note for its citizens not to travel to Japan & its citizens leave the Tokyo region on Sunday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/13/us-japan-quake-france-idUSTRE7...
This is a terrible movie - completly implausible script
Change the fucking channel.
I wish this were a movie, because after, I would leave the theatre and go home.
Worse than Iron Eagles II?
Its hard to be worse than Iron Eagle II. Perhaps a thousand chernobyls in my backyard would be worse, but only just.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083943/
plus the price of popcorn and chocolates keeps rising
Just planted some popcorn this morning, interplant with rows of mung, soy and pinto beans on the side of each row of corn. Got to try and keep ahead of the game.
I did some silver pattern comparison with its own timing as basis, since every commodity etc has difference reaction times after crisis from cooperation to decooperation. This graph for prices 2011-2013 is what I came up with, it seems to be peaking at 45 USD at April 1st and sudden drop to 25 USD when I expect oil will suck money out of silver and possibly gold. Oil is useful commodity, once it becomes scarce ( no fly zone over Libya=war in Libya=war in Arab worlds= was in oil producing region), people will try to secure it, not silver.
After that, quite reasonable prices between 25-32 in 2011-April 2012. After that, silver starts to go up. Either supply problem, or Obamas USD devaluation plan in action ( or threat of devaluation plan), or both supply and USD devaluation threat. Looking at stock market prediction I do not think devaluation will be real, but attempts to devaluate the USD to do something as second recession will hit in Q1 2012 may lead to silver price spike .
Or, rumours the FED is going to be totally changed/liquidated or attmpted to liquidate under the government which will win 2012 elections.Not Obama or regular GOP. That would lead to scooping of silver and gold.
That explains a spike during election time. And afterwards high level as e.g. gold standard is reintroduced at different higher level .
http://saposjoint.net/Forum/download/file.php?id=2673
If all that happens they will be trading oil for silver by proxy of a paper contract or flat out per. Silver and oil have tracked each other for one hundred years plus for a reason.
If I very approximately apply the same thinking to gold, it will peak at the same time, April 2011, at around 1600-1700 USD, and , if there is a talk about gold standard in 2013, the level to set it will be around 3000 USD/ounce. But most likely that is not going to work, as there will be substantive resistance no only from USA and Europe bankers, but all holders of USD and treasuries.
Yes, oil is a useful commodity. But, it is not money. It cannot be stored by the average person in physical form. There are no oil coins...
There are no oil coins.
That's a brilliant idea. I'm going to try to invent oil bullion. I'll update you in a week as to my progress.
Question for everyone smarter than me: Do precious metals absorbe radioactivity?
I believe gold will work in lieu of lead, should lead be in short supply. However, should you have sufficient gold to make a gold radiation shield, and you are considering doing so, due to an insufficient lead supply, you haven't been planning your gold stockpile properly.
Boron is most efficient as a neutron absorber, with carbon less so. That's why they are pumping boric acid into the reactor vessel. While metals may be contaminated with radiation, they could be decontaminated and the existing bullion bars or coins would then be clean.
This is different than the radioactive steel that was found in the past, where uranium wastes had been melted into steel as reprocessed or recycled metals. Note that US tank killing sabot shells made with reprocessed uranium, because they are heavier than lead, led to radioactive poisoning of US troops who explored the shot-up tanks and didn't know the shells that vaporized inside the tanks were hot stuff.
The correct protection for radiation poisoning is to take iodine so your thyroid gland is completely sated for its thirst for iodine, avoiding uptake of radiocactive byproducts (thorium) which biologically mimic iodine. Iodized salt prevents goiter, an iodine deficiency. Iodized salt isn't intense enough, so iodine pills are precribed.
I'm sure Uncle Sam has a goodcache of iodine pills we will share with Japan, as if they didn't have a large stockpile of their own. A sure sign of panic is jerks selling dosimeters and Geiger counters.
Prior to the nuclear test ban treaty, Nevada and the USSR were scenes of nuke testing which released strontium 90 into the biosphere. The strontium biologically acted like calcium so folks forsake giving their kids fresh cows' milk which contained the calcium work-alike but was radioactive. We ate ice cream instead, and so were saved by the freezer. The half-life of strontium 90 is short, so we were back to drinking milk shortly. Rain washed it from the atmosphere, which a low-level event like a reactor leak is. Atomic weapon blasts shot crap high into the atmosphere and leave a wide footprint. We did see a wide fotprint from Chernobyl because it went on for so long and the wind patterns were not favorable.
Pray for peace, safety and health for our friends in Japan.
Sure! But lead is a much cheaper, more effective shield! Water too...
Obviously my rhetoric is flying way under your radars. Thanks to you both. I meant, should I be worried about silver/gold/platinum absorbing radioactivity, but by your answers, I assume, that is a confounded rumor.
DOH! Here is my geiger counter. Neutronics CD V-700. Can still be bought brand new, in the box. Bought mine in case a nuc makes it to one of our ports. To bug out or not to bug out, that is the question that can be answered! (comes complete with a radioactive calibration source)
http://store.colemans.com/cart/geiger-counter-radiation-monitor-cdv700-display-model-p-894.html
I have one built by victoreen, the solid state model.I have had it for years.Time to fire it up to check the background for a few days....
My needle has been pegged all day, meter must have broke...
Yes they can become very, very dangerous. Gold specially. As a fellow ZHer I can offer to dispose of this very toxic asset at no cost to you if you give the coordinates of this radioactive pile. Discretion and satisfaction guaranteed.
Haha! Alright, you will be the first after my Geiger reads off the scale.
operation Grandslam?
My thoughts exactly, Oddjob.
If you are thinking of radioactive gold. The answer is no. Can the gold atom be changed into some other element? The answer is yes (but not very easily or quick to do). So if it's pure gold not to worry. Infact it's a good shield like lead, but lead cost less.
how about tungsten? the bernank is curious...
lol
PM's can survive a nuclear blast if properly protected .Must be wrapped in saran wrap and tightly sealed with duct tape ...Godspeed .
If you have Netflix rent the third DVD for harsh realm, a short-lived sci-fi show by the Maker of the X-files. In the eight and last episode, camera obcura, the two main charcters go looking for gold in a post-nuclear world as it is the form of currency and it's all held in NYC, where, a nuclear bomb went off. But, to answer you question, the show seems to think it does.
cool. Sounds like my kind of show.
For what its worth you can make any metal radioactive If you bombard it with an ample amount of nutrons or protons.
From Wikipedia:
Short answer: Gold can be made radioactive into isotopes of varied half-lives, mostly short.
That i why gold from nuclar power plant instrumentation is supposedly handled and isolated from commerce after its use/exposure.
Radioactive gold can find it way into commerce by dilution with normal gold. So there is risk of low-level contaminated gold being sold as jewelry, etc...and beware the "etc".
JohnJimmi-
"Do precious metals absorbe radioactivity?"
Yes, and they also get activated. Pat Frank in "Alas, Babalon" has post nuclear war characters coming out of contaminated area with their accumulation of "bling." Then they get to die from secondary.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=%22pat+frank%22&sts=t&x...
- Ned
{and his "Hold back the Night" is a story of the ooooold Corps on the ridge above the road as 1stMarDiv "attacked in a different direction.}
Oil through the roof. Japanese liquidity flood. Silver through the roof. Prepare. Pray and prepare. God be with the Japanese
God be with all of us strannick. This is an expression of our collective embrace of explosive technology as the bedrock of our convenient lives.
The day I found the etymology of convenient was the day I understood that it CANNOT end well.
Con = With
Venue= Coming together to do great harm
Interesting eh?
Plus the fact that the only country to be officially bombed with nuclear material embraced it as it's power-source (well, it was made to, but that is a whole other rant). In the most seismically active country in the world.
Hubris and thought-less-ness.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/03/12/fukushima-blessed-island-trinity-unleashed/
The Japanese were much smarter/wiser until Ronald McDonald showed up.
Hai. The introduction of English threw them completely. To watch them squirm as they try to speak it tells a story in itself.
Japan was socially engineered into submission in such a crazy, heart-less and heart-breaking way.
ORI
Got any more pretentious opinionated junk for us today?
Even middle class America was a lot smarter until Ronnie McDonald showed.
He started the 401k programs in 1982 and everybody got into trouble.
C'mon, twinky...Raygun is responsible for quite a bit of middle-class destruction, but...
Even middle class America was a lot smarter until Ronnie McDonald showed.
- - - - - - -
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."
Yup, a TERRIBLE idea ...
.
+ 1
May God in whatever form He is, be with all of us, but especially the Japanese.
Which god? The Japanese believe the sun to be a goddess. Moon God, Storm God, and Sun Goddess.
If we are picking teams, I'm with the sun goddess.
I'm praying for that cranky beeatch to rise tomorrow morn. I'll let you know how that works out.
Well if she does hide herself in the Stone Cavern of Heaven again, we have a script on how to get her out. Long story short, we need a mirror and a diety. Let me know...
Perhaps the sun goddess is bumping off her fissile competition?
<tinfoil>
Mar 9, 2323 UT...Sunspot 1166 threw an X1.5 flare
Mar 10, 0630 UT...CME hits earth's atmosphere
Mar 11, 0546 UT...9.1 EQ off coast of Japan
</tinfoil>
<sarc>
NO mention of HAARP?
Fail.
</sarc>
All of 'Em / It.
The MOX god.
How so? You want to be rid of Him?
From CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/13/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
OT:
Bart Chilton Live on MSNBC saying the word speculators over and over again in relation to oil. When free money chases stocks however that is not speculation.
Who let him out of his cage?
I did. It was an accident I swear. Eenie meanie miney moe catch a Chilton by the toe, if he hollers let him go. hahha we all need some humor in these dark days. I wonder if there has been a drop in the number of atheists. Also, is the an etf for that?
Athiests tried to answer the false paradigm of "real" gods; gods that the third demensional beings could understand. We gave them faces and beards and do not image that maybe we will never imagine their structure and abilities.
There may be a group of gods drinking wine and spitting on us, just as there may be gods of wind and water. I think athiests are wrong when they say they have it figured out. It is as convincing as one true god.
Several years ago i was walking through the tables at a local deli. A corporate wife from XXXXXXXXX IT corporation stated first hand experience with the Japanese, their concept of saving face, at all costs. They won't admit there is a problem, because of saving face, even if their American counterparts knew better.
I doubt in several years Japan has altered their culture for saving face, so factor that into the reports coming from Japan.
+1 heroic.
Would American government reports be different?
This should be the final nail in the coffin of the deflation believe system!
Shocked
Which golf course is Obama on today?
sort of a catch .22 here...reactors need power to maintain cooling but the power is provided BY reactors
You are pure genious.
Don't you wonder where all the "No Peak Oil" anti-greenie Trufers are today?
Shouldn't they be casting this as a Green Conspiracy to make nukular look bad?
Truth kills trolls.
read some of APs headlines - they're lovin' it
from AP
Japan nuclear blast: Japan races to avert multiple nuclear meltdownshttp://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/japan-nuclear-b...
What is the connection between a nuclear meltdown and the peak oil myth?
Less nuke power = more need of fossil fuel = more rapid depletion of FF/oil.
Oh, I thought they were going to say every time we don't clap our hands for the peak oil fairy a nuclear plant melts down.
Sorry, John, we can't understand you because everything you say is garbled by Exxon's cock. Slurp harder!
I stepped right into that. How silly of me to think I was being helpful.
It helped me, I guess, but Mr. O'Sullivan...is well beyond any form of help.
You guys kill me! But you also remind me that I will be running into good people on the road in post-apocolypse America, which is a definite social good.
Kisses and hugs!
Dude, are you haunted by this O'Sullivan guy? I make a point of never filling up at Exxon.
So you deny this is you? And that you're bankrolled by Exxon? Do tell.
Dude, why don't you and O'Sullivan get a room together. And when you do, I won't be there.
I apologize to you. I got carried away.
Accepted. Life is too short. ;-)
My first thought exactly, but, it is so simple. Long solar? Leo? Leo?
Is someone at the BBC reading Zero Hedge?
"The Japan Atomic Power Company has said the cooling system of a reactor at its Tokai nuclear power plant is working, although two of the three diesel power generators used for cooling are out of order, the Reuters news agency reports." - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
Could Stuxnet have infected Japan's nuclear power plants?
I like the way you think.
Sam Kinison
Unlikely.
More likely it infected the Pacific Plate under them...or it's Bush's fault, yet again, take your pick...LOL.
Yes, I agree that it is Bush's fault.
-Nancy Pelosi
Doh!
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it..."
Nancy Pelosi on the perils of transparency...LOL.
I don't know... but did you hear about the Earthquake and Tsunami's that hit Japan? Crazy shit, I know.
Stop with your silly conspiracy theories already.
So another one after Onugawa?? Wtf.
TEPCO site has been down all day
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/index10-e.html
(Reuters) - Japan Atomic Power said Monday that the cooling process was working at its Tokai No.2 nuclear power plant's reactor although two of the three diesel power generators used for cooling were out of order.
Stop buying products 'Made in Japan' dated from 2011 which may be contaminated, buy 'Made in USA'. Japan has been printed money (more than Ben's total printings) in past 20 years, which caused global asset bubbles. Now they find one more reason to print.
Impact to TEPCO's Facilities due to Miyagiken-Oki Earthquake (as of 3:00PM)
Below is major impact to TEPCO's facilities due to the Miyagiken-Oki
Earthquake that occurred yesterday at 2:46PM.
*new items are underlined
[Nuclear Power Station]
Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station:
Units 1 to 3: shutdown due to earthquake
Units 4 to 6: outage due to regular inspection
* The national government has instructed evacuation for those local
residents within 20km radius of the site periphery.
* The value of radioactive material (iodine, etc) is increasing according
to the monitoring car at the site (outside).
* Since the amount of radiation at the boundary of the site exceeds the
limits, we decide at 4:17PM, Mar 12 and we have reported and/or noticed
the government agencies concerned to apply the clause 1 of the Article 15
of the Radiation Disaster Measure at 5PM, Mar 12. The radiation dose at
the monitoring post decreased once. Today, the measured value revamped and
the radiation dose measured at site boundary exceeded the limiting value
again. As such, at 8:56AM, today, it was determined that a specific incident
stipulated in article 15, clause 1 occurred and at 09:01AM, today, notified
accordingly.
After that, the measured value by the monitoring car decreased once, however
the value revamped and the radiation dose measured at site boundary exceeded
the limitation again. As such, at 2:15PM, today, it was determined that a
specific incident stipulated in article 15, clause 1 occurred and at 02:23PM,
today, notified accordingly.
* In addition, a vertical earthquake hit the site and big explosion has
happened near the Unit 1 and smoke breaks out around 3:36PM, Mar 12th.
* Unit 1: We started injection of sea water into the reactor core at 8:20PM,
Mar 12 and then boric acid subsequently. We are coordinating with the
relevant authorities and departments as to how to cool down water in the
spent nuclear fuel pool.
* Unit 2: Reactor has been shut down and Reactor Core Isolation Cooling
System has been injecting water to the reactor. Current reactor water level
is lower than normal level, but the water level is steady. After fully
securing safety, we are preparing to implement a measure to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels under the instruction of the
national government. To do so, we operated the vent valve and completed the
operation at 11:00AM, Mar 13.
* Unit 3: High Pressure Coolant Injection System automatically stopped. We
endeavored to restart the Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System but failed.
Also, we could not confirm the water inflow of Emergency Core Cooling System.
As such, we decided at 5.10AM, Mar 12, and we reported and/or noticed the
government agencies concerned to apply the clause 1 of the Article 15 of
the Radiation Disaster Measure at 5:58AM, Mar 13.
In order to fully secure safety, we operated the vent valve to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels (partial release of air
containing radioactive materials) and completed the procedure at 8:41AM,
Mar 13 (successfully completed at 09:20AM, Mar 13. After that, we began
injecting water containing boric acid that absorbs neutron into the reactor
by the fire pump from 09:25AM, Mar 13.
Taking account of the situation that the water level within the pressure
vessel did not rise for a long time and the radiation dose is increasing,
we cannot exclude the possibility that the same situation occurred at Unit
1 on Mar 12 will occur. We are considering the countermeasure to prevent
that.
* We continue endeavoring to secure the safety that all we can do and
monitoring the periphery.
Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station:
Units 1 to 4: shutdown due to earthquake
* The national government has instructed evacuation for those local
residents within 10km radius of the periphery.
* At present, we have decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce
the pressure of the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air
containing radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety.
These measures are considered to be implemented in Units 1, 2 and 3 and
accordingly, we have reported and/or noticed the government agencies
concerned.
* Unit 3 has been stopped and being "nuclear reactor cooling hot stop" at
12:15PM.
* The operator trapped in the crane operating console of the exhaust stack
was transferred to the ground at 5:13PM and confirmed the death at 5:17PM.
Kashiwazaki Kariwa Nuclear Power Station:
Units 1, 5, 6, 7: normal operation
Units 2 to 4: outage due to regular inspection
[Thermal Power Station]
Hirono Thermal Power Station Units 2 and 4: shutdown due to earthquake
Hitachinaka Thermal Power Station Unit 1: shutdown due to earthquake
Kashima Thermal Power Station Units 2, 3, 5, 6: shutdown due to earthquake
Ohi Thermal Power Station Unit 2: shutdown due to earthquake (Unit 3
resumed operation)
Higashi-Ohgishima Thermal Power Station Unit 1: shutdown due to earthquake
[Hydro Power Station]
* All the stations have been restored.
[Transmission System, etc.]
4 substations shown below have been shutdown:
- Naka Substation
- Shin Motegi Substation
- Joban Substation
- Nishi Mito Substation
[Blackout in TEPCO's Service Area]
Total of about 0.26 million households are out of power.
Tokyo: 0
Kanagawa Pref.: 0
Tochigi Pref.: 7,366
Chiba Pref.: 301
Saitama Pref: 0
Gunma Pref.: 0
Ibaraki Pref: 247,853
Yamanashi Pref: 0
Shizuoka Pref: 0 (east of Fuji River)
[Supply and Demand Status within TEPCO's Service Area to Secure Stable Power
Supply]
Backup supply from Shinshinano Conversion Station: 600MW
Backup supply from Sakuma Conversion Station: 300MW
Backup supply from Higashi Shimizu Conversion Station: 100MW
Backup supply from Kitahon Interconnection Facility: 600MW
Because TEPCO's facilities have been seriously damaged, power shortage
may occur. TEPCO appreciates customers' cooperation in reducing electricity
usage by avoiding using unnecessary lighting and electrical equipment.
We are taking all measures to restore power, however, we expect extremely
difficult situation in power supply for tomorrow as well.
We kindly ask our customers to cooperate with us in reducing usage of power.
Please do NOT touch cut-off electric wires.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/index-e.html
Onagawa's the one I keep wondering about. Very close to the epicenter, had some problems on Friday, not a word since.
Maybe they have lots of diesel and water and candy and don't want to share with the locals....I just hate not knowing that plant's status.
Government: Keep calm (action: each time an area is evacuated, declare a new evac zone)
Government: No health risk (action: Of 1500 tested 160 are sent to hospital for exposure, another source says 20% of those tested are being sent for treatment without citing further numbers of people)
Government: We decline to state the temperature in the reactor cores (action: act like they are uncontrolled)
I think they think something they don't want the rest of us to think.
It also makes one suspicious, when the maximum stated radiation readings are about the equivalent of a dental x-ray, but people are being hospitalized for radiation exposure/poisoning??
Nothing to see here, move along.
O/T, but not much.
Hey Russia! Hey Putin and Medvedev! You STILL want Iran to have a nuclear power plant? Are you CRAZY?
Why? Iran is not on the Ring of Fire, like Japan.
Iran has a history of BIG earthquakes, three of the deadliest (measured in human deaths) earthquakes in history have been in Iran. They had a fairly big one, what, five years ago?
And oh, they have a whacky government too. Mr AhmaDinnerJacket sure would make me nervous were I the Top Dog in Russia.
Well slap me and call me surly...I mean shirley! But don't call me late to drinks!
Cheers!
These are old reactor design's with a history of safety violations for the past two decades.
That's pretty on topic.
All this redemonstrates that nuclear power is safe, except when it isn't. Even if none of this turns into a second chernobyl, the events following this earthquake show that there are all sorts of unexpected scenarios when you are messing with nuclear power. Sure, heartland USA isn't going to have a tsunami, but we could definitely have an earthquake or a terrorist attack at a nuclear facility, and then what happens? What good is a power plant that has the potential to kill or injure tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people and ruin the land it sits on for ages? The worst case scenario for a nuclear facility makes the Valdez or the Deepwater Horizon look like child's play.
If there truly is such thing as a nuclear technology that turns itself off when TSHTF (e.g. IFR???) then maybe we could consider another nuclear plant, but right now, would you want one in your city? Hell no, for me.
I'm glad we, as a country, are funding research to find more efficient materials for solar panels. This is a wake up call to people in both parties who don't like the cost of oil and have been going on TV saying we need more nuclear plants.
Just what is the level of security at our nuclear plants? Does anyone know? I hope it is a least as rigorous as our airport security.
They can't catch a break can they. I guess they need to start investigating the companies that neglected the safety issues for the past two decades. Hope the people can recover ffrom this.
They won't find anyone -- this is not an issue.
http://www.japanfocus.org/-Ishibashi-Katsuhiko/2495
Agree, it is a policy issue. Either you build it to withstand the 1 in 140 year event, or you don't. Like the levies at NOLA. Built for Cat 3, here came Cat 4. And I think I may have over simplified that a little. Policy to save money. Cost more now.
They need to increase the effectiveness of the cooling of the water by adding little heatsinks inside it. SPHEROIDS. Such a setup will cool massively better than just sea water alone. It may be what the Japanese need, but it also needs to get into the right hands so that they can make it a reality, given possible real life constraints in the ability to get the spheroids near the core.
If you want more heat dissipation capability then anything else available, SPHEROIDS should be ones choice. Considering what may happen if Japan can't cool the reactors with seawater flowing in alone.....they should really look at this.
Whether or not it's enough to save any or all the reactors from meltdown, I have no clue. BUT, this is the best setup to dissipate heat ANYWHERE. So why not a nuclear reactor? They're already using sea water, they just need the spheroids added to it. (Think a package of bb's from a bb gun [in essence] inside where the water flows) What the engineers ultimately decide to use (if possible) is up to them. I'm not advocating something terribly complex. Simple thermodynamics.
Someone in Japan MUST read and use this principle. SPHEROIDS.
Use them! It might be the difference for one or all of the reactors going haywire.
The spheroids act as heat sinks with large surface areas (the entire 'sphere') contacting the water around each spheroid, which in turn dissipates much more heat and thus the water temperature is much colder (at that site) and allows it to cool much more effectively by dissipating more heat.
The spheroids can be any highly (or as high as you can find on such short notice) heat conductive metal. Closer to the heat source, the better.
Japanese engineers need to be given this option. It's so fucking easy a caveman can understand it. It's not fucking rocket science, just a principle that would now be applied to cooling a nuclear reactor adhoc. Originally it was for computers and rockets and keeping THOSE within thermal operating limits.
Any Japanese readers? Know of a Japanese engineer or able to contact one?
Spheroids. Get the spheroids into the water flow as close to the heat source as possible.
We cannot let this occur if there is a shot we can do something about it. SPHEROIDS. Pass it along. They need to find a way to use this principle. FIRST, THEY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT SPHEROIDS.
I have no idea if any of this has gotten through, so I have to post it here. Perhaps it's too late, and it needs to be DESIGNED into the reactors, but if they're sucking water from the sea, surely they have a potential opportunity to add spheroids to that water being sucked in. (or find another way to get those spheroids in there)...the outside did blow up. If the name of the game is cooling down the reactors, this might be the best way to achieve that.
Good luck.
I've never even heard of spheroids. Please tell us what they are.
I think he just did?
Any foreign object in the water or near the fuel is a no-no. Cotter pins are very bad -- you see them on the operating deck sometimes (come out of hose connections).
Typically highly demin wtr is used -- seawater sucks too -- it will become very radioactive, because of salts and other particulate. I am concerened about their radwaste processing facility, by now all tanks are full - sooooo... it goes into the sea discharge or a holding area.
Not certain they want to deal with the clogging, collection or processing of radioactive "Spheriods", (or hemoroids).
Some radwaste Volume Reduction Solification Systems (nowhere near the reactor) use resin beads to capture radioactive particles and then are incased in asphalt, concrete, or glass. Then put into storage containers (a.k.a. 55 gal. drums, then stored away for a few half lives.
" it goes into the sea discharge or a holding area."
One of the many untold stories of the still unfolding tragedy.
Just how much radioactive sea water is being dumped back into the ocean is a story we may never know.
The only cooling application I am aware of utilizing spheres as a heat sinking media is an integrated circuit heat sink invented by TEC. But, the spheres are captive and flow heat into a dispersive screen, which is integral for them to be able to function as required. I do not see how spheres simply pumped through a pipe in a liquid media will add to cooling, unless the spheres are able to capture more heat than the media itself, and unless their absorption capacity is a lot greater, then it seems to me the efficiency losses in the annular spaces of a spherical packed media would hurt, rather than help. Some references would be nice.
I'm thinking outside the box on this one. I said let THEM have the PRINICPLE and think up HOW to APPLY it. I sent the resources to ZH, but I'll post some here
TEC as in Technology Enterprises, yes, that's exactly what I'm referencing.
You don't have to use my poor description ad-hoc way, the idea is, to get the water cooler and able to dissipate more heat.
Look guys, what the hell did the NASA engineers do during Apollo 13. Get it? They rigged together whatever it took to WORK.
http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/4884169.html
(the following is not directed at you aristarchan)
Fuck the idiots who dare not even try, only hate. (I'm sure you think you are part of the solution? HA). Go ahead and be ignorant. It's YOUR life.
Oh yes, I know a little bit about heatsinks (just a little), Prolimatech Megahelams i7 920 @4ghz, able to post and some tests at 4.6 ghz...sub 9 second pi @1mil digits when @4.6.
by jmc8888
on Sun, 03/13/2011 - 14:00
#1046922
They need to increase the effectiveness of the cooling of the water by adding little heatsinks inside it. SPHEROIDS.
- - - - - - - -
Me thinks this man has NO idea what the function of a heatsink is ...
Specific Heat
The specific heat of water is 1 calorie/gram °C = 4.186 joule/gram °C which is higher than any other common substance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity
.
me think he was just discharging from the 'rhoidal area.
which will eventually cause rhoid rage...
Hulk,
Does the reading on your meter change when you unplug the probe? Perhaps try replacing it? They are for sale pretty cheap on E-Bay.
I don't know where you live, if on the West Coast this won't be of much help, but here's a site that may give a heads up if you are tracking the jet stream:
http://www.radiationnetwork.com/RadiationNetwork.html
Just trying to create alarm Colonel! The meter is working good. Placed 4 D cells in it this morning and applied the probe to the calibration source and listened to that clicking in the headsets. Should have a spare geiger tube though...
K. I'm a dumbass.
and I'm a dick...
Liquid sodium is a better heat transporter than water.
See, that's what I'm saying, adhoc whatever we can to potentially solve the problem. If liquid sodium is better than water, that should be the trend the engineers there should go towards.
Liquid sodium has and is being used in some types of reactors, but it has some serious issues when used as a coolant for a nuclear reactor....reacting explosively with air, and producing hydrogen when in contact with water. Sodium also becomes very radioactive. But, the Fukushima plants are not compatible with this media, a reactor and its sub-systems have to be specifically designed for it.
Interesting to know.
Dbl
See above asshole
No. YOU are the asshole...for presuming that the people who run a nuke reactor have never heard of specific heat or surface area to volume ratios.
ROFL, actually I just proposed a potential way to dissipate heat better.
I said all along the qualifications.
Am I trying to make money off this? HELL NO.
So fuck off, if unlike you, I'm actually try to help. Maybe it's nothing, but hey, why not let it out. It really does work in it's native applications. Why not think that it could be applied elsewhere? Hmmm.
I'm fine with taking your idiocy, but helping avert a nuclear meltdown, is a bit more important than anything else. I put the info out there. You're the one who blasted it and acted like an ass.
Realize it, chump. I may be ulimately be wrong and it not help out at all, but where's your ideas? At least I try.
You are static on a radio.
Okay sophist.
Maybe it amounts to nothing, but spheroids can increase the heat dissipation ~10x in it's native application (not optimized).
Think that might help?
If it means nothing, then the fate of it would be 'static'.
However you have applied no metrics to accurately judge it. So your guess at what it is, besides being sophistry, is only a coin toss, and not based on anything real...if correct.
I knew there would be one asshole about this all. There ALWAYS is. I'm just trying to get the idea to the right people. Perhaps it helps. Either way, your opinion on it, is not necessary nor required to be favorable for this to possibly avert disaster.
Again, like apollo 13, just get the principles in the right hands. Let them figure it out. This is my poor attempt to get the info out to as wide reaching audience as possible. I apologize if you don't like it, but I must try.
by jmc8888 on Sun, 03/13/2011 - 17:00 #1047339
...
Maybe it amounts to nothing, but spheroids can increase the heat dissipation ~10x in it's native application (not optimized).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This is nuts ... you don't even know the application of the 'rhoids of which you speak showed that 10x improvement ... and your opening post looked a LOT like a pitch, no facts, a LOT of un-based assertions, which still fall in light of FACTS.
Did you even take time to check the wiki link on Specific Heat?
NO in all likelyhood ...
.
I know the application, for intergrated circuits, what I'm saying is it can be extended to OTHERS, using the same principle of spheroids arranged in that manner. Because that was the key to it. I.E. what gave it the exceptional heat dissapation.
Well here's what IBM says. Again, maybe I'm wrong on the application for this crisis, but here's what IBM said. Again, there is reason for me to presume that many are unaware of it, since it was never sold. Tested by IBM on their dime, without the inventors knowledge beforehand. I'm not saying it's the cure all, I'm just saying it could be an aid, and that this needs to go up the chain, until it is found to deserve otherwise. But for REAL reasons.
(note this isn't the full report, but pertinent portions of it, with the conclusion [picture 5]). As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I hope this suffices.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59681483@N04/5524623838/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59681483@N04/5524623842/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59681483@N04/5524623850/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59681483@N04/5524623852/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59681483@N04/5524623860/
IF you knew of this, and given the above, and the key to averting disaster is finding a way in dissipating heat from the core, I have to speak up, as in this world often well constructed and evidenced ideas are overlooked...see Glass-Steagall. I cannot assume it is well known amongst the engineers given it never went mainstream. This is literally something very few people know, and so I must error on the side of caution. Since this whole invention is about heat dissaption, I think it was worth the mention.
Even if it's 1/100, it's worth my time and energy.
No.
This is inapplicable at this stage of the game in Japan.
Try peddling to B&W or GE (if they do this sort of thing - nukes that is) the OEM's for nukes.
This tech looks applicable to semiconductor industry stuff, small scales, BUT, at the OEM level ...
BTW, Have you studied Specific Heat as a subject yet?
So, what materials/elements stack up 'the best'?
Can you give us a short list?
And, for bonus points, what the efficiency of the 'best' is vs the spheroids?
Maybe he's right. We just need to lob some Sierpinski cubes made of aluminum in there! Of course, there is the small problem of them taking an infinite amount of time to manufacture. LOL
There's many reactors with problems, again, if not for this situation at any of the current plants facing trouble, then for the future. (but now is the immediate focus)
It was designed more for industry scale computers than desktops (even room sized supercomputers). Engineers can expand on it as scale it up to what they need. The principle works within the universe, not just within only the conceptual formation, shape, and size presented in the patent figures.
Well I don't know specifically the list of heat transfer materials. I saw it about 20 years ago though. So from memory
Glass
Ceramic
Aluminum
Copper (best...of abundant materials...if I remember correctly)
Something like that.
What you'd want is for the spheroids themselves to be of the best heat transfer capability...Obviously
Again, other people can figure that out, and would probably know immediately, but any material in a spheroid alignment as shown would be most likely a better approach than what is currently used (especially since these reactors were built BEFORE this patent and idea was filed). I am pretty much certain the people on the ground in Japan, are not thinking of spheroids in their possible solutions.
One of may greatest regrets was not finding the time in my 10 years of college to take such classes as pressures, fluids, plasmas. Too busy getting too many other degrees/certificates. Summa Cum Laude. But science has always been 2nd nature to me. It's just I saw first hand what not knowing 'business' could do. I didn't want to limit myself. That was something I wanted to do, even though I do have the mind of an engineer. So I studied out of field and still rocked it.
But I don't need to know these things for it to possibly work....the idea going up the chain, so that OTHERS who know ALOT MORE, might be able to 'Apollo 13' something together. The prinicple is the same REGARDLESS of what it is in. It's about adapting the principle to the specific needs of the (each) reactor, to see if its applicable.
It never hurts to try. There's more reactors with trouble (apparently) than the two with 'hydrogen' explosions. So it may be too late for some reactors, but not for others. I'm not in the loop. It's been ~21 hours since I realized and first diseminated this info, with the public posting portion starting at the first post of this thread. Perhaps if more people looked at the obvious potential and passed the idea up the chain to someone who might know, if they are capable [lots of people read this site...better than saying it aloud to my dog], rather than blowing holes in it for fun, the idea might already be in their hands.
You don't have to know everything, to show that you know something. (That's the argument of a sophist...that you have to know everything)
Did I need to know everything to be able to preceive the trends or the properties of something? No, that's why I was talking with mortgage people in 2005 about the coming housing crash. I saw this whole crash coming, even 2008 as the year. There was plenty of people that did. I was one of them. I understood what they were saying, the dynamics, and agreed. Just like other sane people I saw the overvaluation of the tech sector before that crash and was calling it out amongst my college friends. Tried to give my family investment advice when oil @~12 and gold @~220. Sadly, people thought I was wrong then too.
You want all the info, sometimes it's just not possible. How long did Apollo 13 guys have to come up with an ad hoc fix with components up there with them? It doesn't take long to rig something up if needed. Japan is a capable manufacturer who could rig up a giant custom one of these no problem...a couple of days after design???
But you strive to do the best you can, especially when other people are probably oblivious to a small inventor's idea. IBM did spend ~100,000 in 1990 dollars to test it. It works. It works damn well. The prinicple involved can be exported to other sectors easily. I'm just trying to get someone in the Japan loop to see the principle, and possibly apply it to their fix of any of the reactors...if they deem it to be a possible improvement.
Again, 1/1000 shot is worth it. Especially if that 1 may have great benefits for Japan. I know of nobody public using spheroids in any cooling apparatus for anything, but perhaps they exist. Perhaps even there is something BETTER, and I just remind someone to look for that. Things can be overlooked. The amount of improvement is nothing to sneeze at. Heat dissipation needed, here's a potential solution because it's dissipates heat better than the rest I know of. Trying and failing, is something I can live with. Holding it in? Perhaps effecting millions in a negative way? That would be much tougher. It doesn't hurt to try. I'm definitely not doing it for 'points'. It's to avoid disaster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorinert
Perhaps this in place of water flowing through some spheroids. I.E. That flowing through spheroids.
Fixed.
You're fixed? How did it feel? Hope you had kids first. (actually, given your ignorance, no I don't)
You are so helplessly devoid of a clue that the only fix for you involves Jim Jones Brand kool-aid.
Whatever TROLL
I'm done with your ignorance, you sophist.
Whatever, troglodyte; there's nothing I could do to you that could be worse than living in the complete ignorance you quite obviously do.
That's called projection. (I obviously have not been the one advocating a closed off mind, but one advocating a better method of heat dissapation)
Your words ring hollow, because they are obviously not true.
Jim Jones Kool-Aid....Yum! I hear it is better than government cheese.....