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The Latest Gold Fraud Bombshell: Canada's Only Bullion Bank Gold Vault Is Practically Empty

Tyler Durden's picture


Continuing on the trail of exposing what is rapidly becoming one of the largest frauds in commodity markets history is the most recent interview by Eric King with GATA's Adrian Douglas, Harvey Orgen (who recently testified before the CFTC hearing) and his son, Lenny, in which the two discuss their visit to the only bullion bank vault in Canada, that of ScotiaMocatta, located at 40 King Street West in Toronto, and find the vault is practically empty. This is a relevant segue to a class action lawsuit filed against Morgan Stanley, which was settled out of court, in which it was alleged that Morgan Stanley told clients it was selling
them precious metals that they would own in full and that the company
would store, yet even despite charging storage fees was not in actual possession of the bullion. It appears that this kind of lack of physical holdings by all who claim to have gold in storage, is pervasive as the actual gold globally is held primarily in paper or electronic form. Lenny Organ who was the person to enter the vault of ScotiaMocatta, says "What shocked me was how little gold and silver they actually had." Lenny describes exactly how much (or little as the case may be) silver was available - roughly 60,000 ounces. As for gold - 210 400 oz bars, 4,000 maples, 500 eagles, 10 kilo bars, 10 one kilogram pieces of gold nugget form, which Adrian Douglas calculates as being $100 million worth, which is just one tenth of what the Royal Mint of Canada sold in 2008, or over $1 billion worth of gold. As Orgen concludes: "The game ends when the people who own all these paper obligations say enough and take physical delivery, and that's when the mess will occur."

Also note the interesting detour into what Stephan Spicer of the Central Fund Of Canada, said regarding his friend at a major bank, who wanted access to his 15,000 oz of silver, and had to wait 6-8 weeks for its to be flown in from Hong Kong.

It is funny that central bankers thought they could take the ponzi mentality of infinite dilution of all assets coupled with infinite debt issuance, as they have done to fiat money, and apply it to gold, in essence piling leverage upon leverage. They underestimated gold holders' willingness to be diluted into perpetuity - when the realization that gold owned is just 1% of what is physically deliverable, you will see the biggest bank run in history.

Link to full Eric King interview.


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Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:37 | 289730 truont
truont's picture

Who trusts these banks to hold their gold?  Really?  After all they have done, after all the CDO fraud, HFT front-running, helping Greece circumvent EU rules, and Repo 105 scams, who trusts these banks?


Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:43 | 289749 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

If you don't physically hold it, you DO NOT own it. It truly is as simple as that.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:52 | 289780 Postal
Postal's picture

Even if you physically hold it, you don't (or won't) own it if the gov't finds out.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:56 | 289797 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Depends on how well you hide it.

Depends on what jurisdictions you have your physical.

Be creative!


If enough gold holders also happen to be gun owners, then a confiscation is unlikely.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:04 | 289823 Stuart
Stuart's picture

AND it depends upon how many guns they face from the citizenry!  Why would anyone expect any different response to pure theft.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:06 | 289841 Sam Malone
Sam Malone's picture

But how many GLD owners are going to push for delivery? Exactly none, which is why this will continue unabated.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:09 | 289851 dumpster
dumpster's picture

thats why they bought gld to lazy to read the perspectious ,  so they are clueless about physical gold ,

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:09 | 290837 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

someone enlighten me, but does such an infinitesimal physical backing on gold claims make it incredibly precious or basically worthless?


(disclosure: i own physical)

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:49 | 290890 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Both.  Physical gold will increase dramatically, while the paper value will approach zero.

Thu, 04/08/2010 - 01:36 | 291196 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

this may not be true, at least for some time (long enough for profitable trades).  if gld settles in cash, like the notorious "failure to deliver" trades with the 25% premium to spot price we've heard so much about, it would pay in dollars based on the spot price, less fees.  the crucial ingredient, imo, is that someone, probably a significant economic amount of someones, insists on actual physical delivery to break the veil of illusion that maintains the power of the naked shorts.  if the dilution of the actual, tradable stock of physical bullion by these "paper gold" tracking derivatives is made plain, the resulting short squeeze, it would seem, would benefit both the holders of actual bullion and of paper gold, at least for a while.

regarding gunfire and gold confiscation:  no one shot or got shot in the thirties when required to turn in gold before it was revalued.  some tried the courthouse and lost.  few were prosecuted (probably some gold was smuggled abroad and sold).  there are other ways to own gold mines than to own all of one and not work it, aren't there?  own stock in one that is being worked?  these did very well in the earlier iteration and no stock owners experienced confiscation. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 22:57 | 1307745 Monedas
Monedas's picture

Won't that be delicious ! Almost as much fun as watching government snipers shoot their terrorist loving citizenry ! I'm having too much fun and wetting my pants because I know the fun is just begining ! There is a God ! God Bless Tim ! Hoarders have more fun ! In my political satire I try to conform to the decency and good taste standards set by the Democrat party during the Reagan/Bush years ! Fuck Barack Hussein Obama ! Monedas 2011 Me happy !

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:30 | 289922 Stuart
Stuart's picture

GLD shareowners are not entitled to the physical. GLD is merely a tracking index.   Anyone owning GLD thinking they're somehow entitled to physical didn't do their homework, cause they're not.  They've got a paper tracking share equal to 1/10 the physical price adjusted for the fees.  Nothing more.   

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:28 | 290085 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

This Kings News source looks very suspect to me. Looks like they are just spreading rumors and innuendoes to entrap unwary investors. I find this story completely unconvincing. I am losing confidence in Zero Hedge with this kind of information about CEF...

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:29 | 290230 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

If you want the official party line, try CNBC.  Avoid those tinfoil hat types at Bloomberg, too - they're almost as bad as bloggers.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:46 | 290264 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Mad Max

How many time have I told you to STOP playing with those poor gerbils? You're torturing them to death with your constant poking and pulling and throwing.

Now put them back in their cage and leave them alone, NOW!

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:05 | 290299 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Awwwwww MOM!, you know the gerbils like it.  Oh, ok, I'll put them down and let them alone.  But I want snakey-snakey to keep them company.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:59 | 290283 dumpster
dumpster's picture

you believe in majic  wave the wand .. listen to FTV


i am sure you have missed all the detail before the king broadcast. 

are you a front for fox..

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:34 | 290867 Crime of the Century
Crime of the Century's picture

Right - like FOX doesn't have wall-to-wall commercials for physical gold dealers...

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:04 | 290290 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Here's what looks suspect to me IBelieveInMagic. (Great name BTW!)

Catch the CFTC hearing video snippet where they try to explain the rationale behind all those institutional PM shorts... can you say price manipulation?... or is it merely just fraud?

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:26 | 290378 Gold...Bitches
Gold...Bitches's picture

This Kings News source looks very suspect to me.

Says the person with the screen name "IBelieveInMagic"

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:40 | 290430 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

I think we need to get our head around the fact that there seems to be the beginning of a clash between the banking elite and a possible new or older elite who are contesting the legitimacy of the present decadent Nero's who seem to be running this fiasco.

Now on balance I am with most of the  guests that come on King World news but if this is war then well.... the truth is the first casualty of war.

Because of the euro appreciation of gold  since I was buying last summer my PM allocation is now 80%.

But I shall keep the rest in short term bonds and cash as this could be a long war.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 19:14 | 290782 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

I missed any slam to CEF, but agree with your assessment of King News. As to your being flagged for slamming ZH, well, suffice it to say that a great many of the trolls from the old Yahoo Finance message boards have found a new home.

Fri, 04/09/2010 - 22:08 | 294095 snowdude
snowdude's picture

I caved in and got myself an account here so I could respond to some of the misleading information in this interview... although it took two days to get the account so it may be too late for anyone to care anymore, but here goes anyway:

I work around the corner from the Royal Canadian Mint.  It is my client so I try to keep up with the gold industry to some degree, more lately than ever before.  The large Canadian charter banks (RBC, Scotia, CIBC, TD, BMO) are also clients so I am quite familiar with how they operate too.

Scotiabank (The Bank of Nova Scotia) is one of the big charter banks, all concentrated in downtown Toronto.  It bought Mocatta a few years back, which was an international gold dealer.  Now they refer to themselves as "Canada's only bullion bank" because they are the only one of the big charter banks that actually sells gold to the public.  The "bullion bank" label is just a marketing term.  In reality, you would be hard-pressed to call it a bullion bank at all.  They carry their inventory of coins and wafers and bars that they sell out of a trading desk in Scotia Plaza downtown Toronto and through an online service, so that is essentially what the "bullion bank" is - their inventory. There are many other such gold dealers in the country (ever heard of Kitco in Montreal???) and vaults with stores of gold.  After all, they make it here!

These banks are all primarily retail business in Canada, in large, modern office towers and relatively small vaults.  They are not equipped to store large volumes of gold bullion or anything of the kind. The only other bank with a visible store of gold in downtown Toronto is the RBC Headquarters (Royal Bank of Canada).  Their office towers are all glass and each pane of glass is dipped in a bath of 24k gold.  It looks nice but a window washer would need to be scraping for months to get enough to make a ring!

Mocatta also introduced gold "certificates" as have many other organizations around the world that work with gold or other financial instruments.  Even the Mint has introduced a pilot project with these types of certificates.  Contrary to what the guys in the interview claimed, there is nothing anywhere that says these certificates are for allocated gold.  In fact the literature is quite clear that it is for unallocated gold, backed only by the assets of the bank.  One of the selling points is that you don't have to pay for storage or insurance, again contrary to what the guys in the interview claimed.  If you do convert to physical gold, then you have to pay the full freight, which is what happened to them. 

In most of these cases, I don't believe these things are so much scams as they are mis-understood by the average investor who typically doesn't spend much, if any time looking into what they are buying.  That doesn't mean that these certificates don't involve risk.  Personally I viewed those gold certificates in the same light as "deeds to land on the moon" or "certificates of ownership of a star" that you can buy from novelty dealers.  But people spend money on those too!

Another comment made in the interview has been mis-interpreted in such a way as to undermine the credibility of CEF (The Central Canada Fund) by painting it with the same brush. CEF is one of many gold funds in the country, and around the world for that matter as it trades mainly in the U.S.  It started in 1961 in Toronto as a mutual fund holding Canadian equities.  In 1983, after the last gold boom busted, they decided to remake themselves as the "Sound Monetary Fund" and converted to all physical gold and silver.  Then they moved their management to Calgary where a branch of the CIBC (Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce) had a giant underground vault, suitable for the conditions of the wild west.

CEF is one of the few funds that goes to great lengths to demonstrate that it possesses actual, unencumbered, fully allocated gold for its shareholders.  (Sprott is building another one.)  The gold holdings are audited twice a year by an independent auditor.  The prospectus is quite clear that no gold is leased, loaned or otherwise encumbered in any way.  The one risk I did notice is that when they issue new shares to raise funds, then buy more gold, they count the gold as holdings before they receive physical delivery, which may take some time.

Other than that, it is fully protected in the underground vault by herds of wild moose.  And if you get past them, you have to deal with bunches of savage Canadian beavers with the great big buck teeth.  If you happen to make it through those defences and get some gold and try to run away, as they say in the Alberta prairies: when your dog runs away, you can see him running for three days!  So in that time, the Mounties on horses will surely catch up to you.  After all, they always get their man.  And these days, once they do, they can marry him too.  That means two more gold rings sold, pushing demand up even higher!

Hope that helps.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:09 | 290317 omi
omi's picture

GLD is not really redeemable. It's an accepted substitute in a delivery method.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:35 | 290400 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"GLD is not really redeemable. It's an accepted substitute in a delivery method."

Sure, in the same way my anatomically correct blow up doll (Shelia) is an accepted substitute for my girl friend (the real Shelia).

BTW, Sheila doesn't know about Shelia so mums the word, OK?

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 19:42 | 290813 starfish
starfish's picture

LOL +1

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:08 | 290998 MagicHandPuppet
MagicHandPuppet's picture

ha ha ha!  That's funny as hell.  Careful... I am too old to laugh this hard.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:17 | 290056 crosey
crosey's picture

Hide it well.

Remember the Whiskey Rebellion.  The government won and collected the taxes.  They have much bigger guns now, and far more of them.  You start shooting, they will shoot back until you are dead, and then they will take your gold.

Hide it v-e-r-y well...and get used to a vegetarian diet for a while.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:46 | 290265 fxguy
fxguy's picture

And then when you need to sell it.... ???
Oops, sorry but all gold sales are illegal, don't ya
know? You must sell it to the US Gov for $250 oz!

You can delcare a loss on Form 1040-UPYRA55


Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:06 | 290300 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Nice form name.  Seems quite plausible.

Quite wrong on the gold price though.  Official US government gold price is about $39/oz.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:56 | 290901 dumpster
dumpster's picture

fx guy

another i have no gold cuzz i am asset poor ,, and justifying too my self that i will br okay when things get grim,, maybe the fed will give you squat,, but  that is normal lol

the market will price it at a going rate . 

so best to not sell it to the gov,   

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:11 | 291000 MagicHandPuppet
MagicHandPuppet's picture

It might be a good idea to buy a bunch of those gold-plated tungsten chips.  The goons won't know the difference.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 23:48 | 291105 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

That is actually a  great idea. 

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:01 | 290167 A Texan
A Texan's picture

"If enough gold holders also happen to be gun owners, then a confiscation is unlikely."


I would say that there is a near identity of ownership between the two precious metals - gold and tubular steel.


I would further make an educated guess and state that most owners of both precious metals would be happy to make a substitution (like the cash instead of physical substitution), but they would substitute yet another precious metal (an amalgam, really) for the gold that the confiscators would like to receive.  Instead of gold, the gold owners would likely substitute copper-plated lead, and would be so eager to make that substitution that they'd send the copper-plated lead via airmail.



Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:29 | 290859 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

LOL! Airmail indeed.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:10 | 290319 Attila
Attila's picture


Some years ago we came up with a workable storage system: ie

We acquired a small gold mine, and left it unmined. Cheap storage. No theft.

Gummint leaves it alone as it might take WORK to get it.

Can't be removed from site without requiring months of digging & other hard work.


Anyone with better system please advise!



Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:50 | 290455 macfly
macfly's picture

Now that is really genius, and exactly the kind of lateral thinking that makes OH so inspiring, I'm off to stake my mining claim right now!

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 16:10 | 290495 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

A friend of mine in the Smokeys, had buried (has several acres) a reinforced concrete drainage pipe 10' L by 6' in diameter in an incline (no water damage.) The dead end concreted in. The open side on the lower part was concealed, boarded and backfilled with heavy soil at 45 degree angle and planted. (dogs all over)

He kept the extra ammunition, extra long guns, PM's and food stuff.



Wed, 04/07/2010 - 21:49 | 290971 The Disappointed
The Disappointed's picture

Hope he's in good health. Or he trusted someone enough to tell them. Or left a map.

Did he have a hook for a hand and a taste for rum and parrots?

Just joshing you.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 17:09 | 290608 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

It's a good idea, but if things get bad enough for confiscation, they'll nationalize your mine and pay you, if anything, only what it was worth without the minerals.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 21:33 | 290949 A_MacLaren
A_MacLaren's picture

If things get bad enough for the blatant violation of property rights, such as confiscating physical precious metals or firearms, or in the case of real property confiscation, TPTB should expect should extreme resistance, of the Charlton Heston kind.


Thu, 04/08/2010 - 01:55 | 291202 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

confiscation is a poor term (i'm guilty too) for what is, at least, the precedent, which was required sale prior to revaluation.  it also doesn't make as much sense in a variable price market (as opposed to the fixed price market of the thirties).  from the evidence, the fed and other central banks intervene to depress the gold price, their banking allies short without holding the asset sold, etc. and have done so for decades.  it seems to me that the illusion is slowly dissipating at a time when central banks' (and bullion banks'?) bullion stocks are historically low.  this seems bullish.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:49 | 290889 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 - sweet jebus.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 16:27 | 290539 BDig
BDig's picture


Could you please be a little more specific on what jurisdictions you speak of?  I feel like you're eluding to something important, but it escapes me.

Thank you,

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 17:41 | 290654 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I have a decent sized stash that is very secure overseas.  Very.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 19:24 | 290800 Gold...Bitches
Gold...Bitches's picture

unless it is in your hands its not secure.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:40 | 291032 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I have even more in my hands.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 23:29 | 291079 Gold...Bitches
Gold...Bitches's picture

then its all good :)

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:08 | 289846 dumpster
dumpster's picture

balony / this incessent yammer about what the government will do with the gold .  when about 3% of the population has squat,

your probably own zero ,, and make this huge noise ,

in 1930  even with a gold standard , nobody really turned in any gold ,

a lot of noise , 

its always those who know the least about gold have none ..cry out the sky is falling , if you own gold ,

this opinion of yours and a buck will buy you nothing


Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:23 | 289893 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Yep. I'm more concerned about the rounding up of dissidents then I am of gold confiscation.  Not enough people have gold to make it worthwhile, and goldbugs tend to also be gun nuts.  But they are also generous, they will give free copper jacked lead to any unexpected unwanted guest.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:04 | 290297 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Gun nut?

Excuse me but I only have 9, not including the various shotguns, the 2 AK's, the 3 AR-15's, the 30 aught 6 and mind.

And while I love the Gold, I love the Silver even more, so back off on the GoldBug accusations.

But I did give generously to Guns and Ammo last year, though the damn IRS doesn't seem to think it's a qualified charitable deduction.


P.S. Not kidding about the weapons. Nor the Silver/Gold. But I'm not a "nut" and the hospital agrees. I'm cured.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:07 | 290306 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

That's nothing....

I used to be a werewolf... but I'm alright NOOOOOOW!!! <(howling sound!)

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:39 | 290425 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Good to see you hanging around again my friend. Missed your "bite-me" humor. 

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:58 | 290472 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Thanks... I'm off-leash this week!

(Sorry darling... :)

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 21:59 | 290983 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

...and will probably eat them, as rations will be scarce, TL chicken is the word, and no blinking allowed.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 17:10 | 290609 Real Wealth
Real Wealth's picture

by dumpster
" 1930  even with a gold standard , nobody really turned in any gold..."

My great grandfather was nagged by my great grandmother into turning all their gold to the El Presidente for life, FDR.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:39 | 290874 Crime of the Century
Crime of the Century's picture

That is why you get your husband/wife educated now so you don't need to discuss it later.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:58 | 290905 dumpster
dumpster's picture

a nagging women lol

Thu, 04/08/2010 - 02:17 | 291206 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

500 tons of gold were "turned in" during 1933.  fdr wasn't elected until 1932.  my prior comment is a bit off re: history.  there was one actual prosecution of a lawyer (frederick barber campbell) apparently testing the law itself (actually an executive order under a trading with the enemy statute from ww1) and he won on a technicality.  he did not go to jail for ten years, as the order prescribed, but he didn't keep his gold either. the executive order was modified and new legislation was passed.  500 tons is significant and may make up a good bit of the govt's gold stock (and account for the stories about 900 fine gold ingots, coin fineness, rather than the 999 fine required for "good london delivery").

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 23:22 | 291071 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Been thinking the same thoughts, Dumpster. I reckon that fractional reserve banking and the government's tax on wages etc for their own job security, is more effective in taking a slice of your production, than the gold theft of the 1930's, by a long shot. The net is more broadly cast that way and the sleight of hand unnoticed. Still, can't be too careful with thieves at the door, can we.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:25 | 289902 futboller04
futboller04's picture

care to come search my 200 acre farm in western nebraska?

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:38 | 289945 SteveNYC
SteveNYC's picture

Haha! I had a gun pulled on me in PA once, not the most pleasant experience.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:50 | 290098 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

Huskers with gold? There's gold in them corn fields!

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 16:31 | 290549 Hulk
Hulk's picture

lots of rattlesnakes too. Me thinks Nebraska has more rattlesnakes per sq meter than any other place on earth.Used to cut off the rattle and throw the snakes back, so look out!

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 17:25 | 290633 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Heh. Just like those poor Pashtuns et al over there in the sandboxes. Unexpected death from above, long-forgotten landmines, McChrystal midnight raids. No warning.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:40 | 290115 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Google Maps already has an app for PMs overlays...  I see you hid yours under that old Star Wars blanket by the barn..  

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:49 | 290270 fxguy
fxguy's picture

I've stored mine with Sadam's weapons of mass

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:38 | 290423 dumpster
dumpster's picture

nope just walk through this metal detector.   lol

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 17:17 | 290620 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

You would be suprised how easy it would be to search your 200 acre farm. A couple of guys search fields out in the midwest and Austrailia for Meteorites using nothing more than broken down trucks, pvc pipe and simple electronics that can read the electromagnetic signature of the metals contained withing the meteorites. They pull a contraption made of the pvc pipe behind the trucks while sending a small amount of current through wires connected around the pvc pipe, which in all actuallity is just one rather large metal detector. They find quite a few of these meteorites and make literally many thousands of dollars a year. If you live on a farm and are not connected to any type of municiple sewer system then the best place to hide your gold is in your septic tank. Just lower it down through the clean out access.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 19:28 | 290803 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Well, after this comment, it no longer is the best place to hide your Gold.

Big Brother is watching.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:22 | 290850 DosZap
DosZap's picture

"the best place to hide your gold is in your septic tank. Just lower it down through the clean out access."

Nope, NAZI's did that routine in WWII.................our Fed's know the usual suspects well. They even send in Poop Frogmen,( the resistance hid weapons/contraband in swine pens,they found out about that little trick  also at a later date.)

All political power comes from the barrel of a Gun.( Current Admin Employee, from Mao quote).

Safest IMHO, is offshore, or locally in several caches.........RR tracks, etc, etc.

Or, claim Diplomatic Immunity..............(;*)

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 21:57 | 290980 The Disappointed
The Disappointed's picture

Those magnetically detectable meteorites are made primarily of IRON, which is a whole lot more magnetic than Gold.

Look it up on Wiki.

Thu, 04/08/2010 - 02:26 | 291208 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

good point.   

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 23:08 | 291058 saulysw
saulysw's picture

"...  the best place to hide your gold is in your septic tank."


That's a shit idea.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:43 | 290882 merehuman
merehuman's picture

futboller,  yes if you let me milk the goat and keep half of what i grow on your land LOL

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:36 | 995682 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Metal detectors and ground penetrating radar makes it easy.  I would suggest 'salting' the earth with a bunch of saw blades and shot and probably burying a few junked piles of steel if you want to degrade that detection method. 

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:35 | 289936 bchbum
bchbum's picture

How do you recommend buying it so the govt doesn't find out?  Buy it in <$10,000 incriments?  Get a fake id and pay in cash?  

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:41 | 289959 primus
primus's picture

I was wondering the same thing. I guess BB can track you if they want, regardless of how careful you are. I tend to buy in small amounts off the internet (APMEX, Monex & Ebay) primarily. There are also a couple of old school coin shop owners where I live. I check in with them every now and then, one guy wont take plastic and the other guy adds 5% unless you pay cash.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:22 | 290074 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You found the right dealer, then.  Find one that will trade cash for metal and not issue a receipt or mark it in his books.  If you have to travel 200 miles to find this person, do it.  Better safe than sorry.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:22 | 290349 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

My primary source is eBay -- from known sellers who have a track record and a street address.  I correspond with all my sellers by email if not by phone.  Also, go local!   You can buy from local folks who want to sell junk silver or common gold coinage.  I bought over $2K of junk silver from a nice older couple who live in a retirement community.  It was actually an accumulation from other family members who thought he had some sort of collection started.  There were some nicer numismatic pieces in the lot which I'll unload on eBay for their value above melt.  It's fun and you get to meet some fine, honest folks.  Getting tungsten is the last of my worries.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:39 | 290426 dumpster
dumpster's picture

a 10-4   . a person has to be able to chew gum and walk at the same time lol

to figure this out

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 16:06 | 290487 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Those skills seem to be in short supply amongst the general populace, my Dumpster friend.

Perhaps it has become a genetic trait.  Or maybe it's the reluctance to actually face a person, be friendly, and enter into some actual negotiation/bargaining.

Break loose and live!  Enough with the shadows on the cave wall.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:39 | 290428 dumpster
dumpster's picture

a 10-4   . a person has to be able to chew gum and walk at the same time lol

to figure this out

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:32 | 290863 DosZap
DosZap's picture

They do not know what,how much you purchase,and do not care,unless $10k+..or multiple (stacking buy's),will get you in as much trouble as buying over/close to $10k, and not reporting.

Your banks are also paid to OUT you..........if you do multiple W/D's, of unusual amounts, and stacking to (seemingly beat the reporting rules).

This can be construed if you did it even over a years W/D's.

IF your arrested,found guilty, the Bank's INFORMANT recieves a 25% REWARD of total.......for turning you.

When you SELL is the day your made............1099R's

Thu, 04/08/2010 - 08:16 | 291296 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Multiple buys are called "Dollar Cost Averaging."  Any time I take a long for the purposes of holding I do it in this manner.  I am still doing it two years after starting.  Discipline.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 18:04 | 290696 cossack55
cossack55's picture

The operative word here is "find".  Try 4" PVC with end cap and male/female adapters and a post hole digger.  Also, spoof various areas if entombing on your own property. 

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:05 | 290993 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

next to a perm metal object is most appealing, and not on your own property.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:12 | 290038 Tense INDIAN
Tense INDIAN's picture

thats so true....and be carefull with physical gold too....too many fake TUNGSTEN SALTED gold here n there ....

Sun, 02/06/2011 - 21:13 | 939590 web dizajn
web dizajn's picture

"If you don't physically hold it, you DO NOT own it. It truly is as simple as that." - it's worth repeating web dizajn

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:02 | 289820 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I wonder if I could sell some paper houses.

Oops, they already did that with the mortgage fraud. Why am I always the last one to figure it out? :>)

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:21 | 289890 Howard_Beale
Howard_Beale's picture

I've got several I will sell you CD. The scotch tape and crayon work is top notch. They don't do well in the elements though so you have to keep them in your safe deposit box with your certificates of gold holdings at a storage facility near you.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:27 | 289904 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Damn, there goes the coffee all over the monitor again. Damn you, stop, please.


The "scotch tape and crayon work is top notch" was just too much for an old man to take. The ticker isn't what it used to be. It's now clear what your major was.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:46 | 289973 Howard_Beale
Howard_Beale's picture

I majored in "stand up" finance. Basically laughed at the professors through grad school as they espoused that anal irritant Fama's horseshit EMH. Even brought in hemorroid cream for those going through the trouble of dragging his book around :)

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:33 | 289932 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

All primary residences at the time of application?

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:43 | 289967 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

We have a Time to get my 3 year old grandson working on more inventory.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:40 | 289951 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

Come on CD, paper houses? That's so 20th Century. 

You don't need a paper any more:

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:48 | 289980 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Every time I think I have a grasp of the insanity, of the limits and outer boundaries of the cesspool as it oozes it's fetid plume of scum into the local ground water, it expands into areas I lack the imagination to even conceive are possible.

Thank you for pointing this old dog in a new direction.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:25 | 290080 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

I blame Chinese, first they invented paper, then fireworks, then paperless realestateless real estate. I don't know what comes next, maybe fortuneless fortune cookies.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:32 | 290235 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Virtual fortune cookies - that could be the next great bubble!  I'll sell them on Second Life and advertise on Facebook, and tweet all about it!

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:48 | 290267 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

A successful snake oil salesman has all the bases covered. Nice to see you've taken you're programming so well. :>)

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:31 | 290392 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

Notice starting @ 0:24:

"- I was the first bubble artist in America to get a government grant to research, create and perform a soap bubble show.

- Paid by the government?

- That is correct.

- These are your tax dollars at work. You know, considering some things your tax dollars are spent on, soap bubble blowing seems like an efficient expenditure."

That's ironic, because by far the most skillful bubble artist, Ben Bernanke is also sitting on the government payroll.

Thu, 04/08/2010 - 02:36 | 291214 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

give me soap bubbles (even bathtub bubbles) over the financial, war, foreign and national security policies of the bush/obama administration.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:25 | 291018 The Disappointed
The Disappointed's picture


I blame those godd(ess)less Chinese too!

They also invented paper money, three times, all of which ended in hyperinflation.

And each time wound up back on the silver standard....


Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:40 | 289952 SWCroaker
SWCroaker's picture

******-> The article refernces a visit to "Scotia Mocatta", the only and only bullion bank?, which is part of the Bank of Nova Scotia.  Central Fund of Canada's annual report clearly states:

".... Central Fund’s bullion is stored on an allocated and fully segregated basis in the
underground vaults of the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (the “Bank”), one of
the major Canadian Banks, which insures its safekeeping.'.


Unless Scotia Bank and CIBC are one and the same (don't think so), the jump to a conclusion that CEF is lying about its holdings is very short on credebility.  The quote above was taken from CEF's 48th *annual* report; this bullion fund has been in business almost as long as I've been alive.  It is going to take more than bad jouranlism to shake my faith in CEF.


Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:06 | 290023 Jesse
Jesse's picture


I thought the headline was exceptionally sensationalistic based on what the article revealed.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:12 | 290041 Stuart
Stuart's picture

the meat is in the linked Eric King interview.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:01 | 290168 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

The interview sounds completely phony -- touches of The Sting to me!

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 21:02 | 290910 merehuman
merehuman's picture

Nadler reads totally phony to me. HI

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:26 | 291019 The Disappointed
The Disappointed's picture


Thu, 04/08/2010 - 06:12 | 291267 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

Knuckles is planning his counteroffensive as we speak.


$600 gold by June 1st. That's his story and he's sticking to it.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:18 | 290055 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

I have my mortgage and chequing account with Scotia. When I tried to buy physical gold coins from them it became a bureaucratic labyrinth very quickly. I couldn't figure out why the only gold vending/holding bank would make it so hard for a customer to just buy some %&$*ing coins on a monthly basis. Now I know.


It's easier to buy it over the internet and have it FedEx'ed. And yeah, I'd recommend buying in small quantities regularly.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 23:39 | 291095 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Yeah they are hard to deal with. they would not sell to me unless I disclosed by social security number and they charge $25 an oz commission and then a 5% sales tax.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:22 | 290072 Eally Ucked
Eally Ucked's picture

I don't have any idea where they store gold but the article states that Canada's "only bullion vault" is empty which implies that even CIBC should keep their gold under administration at that vault.

I wonder about Canadian Mint vault, is it existing or it just nice name for part of the floor at Scotia Mocatta?

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:14 | 290335 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Yes it does in fact exist... unfortunately the only gold in it is a couple of atoms thick and is only on the foil in which the chocolate mints are wrapped!

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 16:23 | 290522 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture


Absolutely brilliant!

Which means we must pray for a once in a 1000 year Canadian heat wave to overwhelm the vault air conditioning to expose the Gold fraud. Add some caramel and peanuts and we'll have a party.

Mmmm, looks like Gold, tastes like chocolate. Two great experiences in one. Wasn't this how Resse's peanut butter cup was created?

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:09 | 290999 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

Chocolate too? no wonder their currency is doing so well... not to mention all the oil they have... should we invade since they are holding out? <sarcoff>

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:29 | 291021 The Disappointed
The Disappointed's picture

Chocolate and gold foil?

April Fools!

Thu, 04/08/2010 - 00:38 | 291152 Double down
Double down's picture

PHYS is stored there according to Sprott.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:23 | 290077 lucky 81
lucky 81's picture

I'm only guesstimating but i see the 'central' reference as a mistake in need of some clarification. The scotia macotta is the canadian member of the LBMA and is nothing to do with the CEF. The central fund of the LBMA however....

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:55 | 290276 Jessica6
Jessica6's picture

You are correct - they are different banks. And the Royal Canadian Mint is yet again a separate entity -

I don't know the motives of those claiming 'fraud' in every instance that involves gold apart from the mining companies (if you knew mining companies you'd LOL) but they're suspect to say the least.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 15:24 | 290367 Attila
Attila's picture

SW Croaker;

If one reads the transcript of the interview, It is clear that the man from the CEF is referring to another person who found Scotia-Mocatta short of inventory. There is no suggestion that CEF is short of inventory.



Wed, 04/07/2010 - 16:12 | 290501 Carl Marks
Carl Marks's picture

I spoke to an investor services rep with CEF this afternoon. He confirmed that CEF stores its gold and silver in allocated accounts at Canadian Imperial Bank which is not affiliated with the Bank of Nova Scotia. 

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 23:36 | 291086 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Round of applause, we finally have a serious response about a serious story. Too bad I had to read a page of complete bullshit before getting to it.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:54 | 289994 CookieMonster
CookieMonster's picture

NICE people still trust them, maybe 40% of the country. But their numbers are dwindling fast.....

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:55 | 290155 DaddyWarbucks
DaddyWarbucks's picture

+1. Trust. After information it is the most valuable commodity in the world. Gold, PMs, paper, seashells, whatever the tokens may be it is trust that makes them valuable as a medium of exchange and hence as a store of value.
Want to know how valuable it is? just ask any confidence man. It shouldn't be hard, take a walk through New York or Washington D.C. and you'll find many con men. Their stock in trade is trust.
It is rapidly disappearing and so it will become even dearer.
Properly deserved trust is what really makes an economy run.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:43 | 290260 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

the economy and everything else. Excellent comment

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 18:11 | 290701 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

+1+1 Spot on comment and Spot on Avatar / Screen name. Well done.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:14 | 291002 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

BUT, if they are out of tulip bulbs.. their days are you mentioned, CONfidence is the key to all forms of trade.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 23:42 | 291098 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Yes, and the only way to confirm your trust is to go and try to redeem your gold and silver certificates. They are similar to the ones that the US treasury used to distribute. Try redeeming your FRN's for anything other than another FRN and see how far you get with that. The last trusting tight-fisted holder of those fallacious and deceptive links to credit, are going to be most disappointed. 

Thu, 04/08/2010 - 08:27 | 291300 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Properly deserved trust is what really makes an economy run.

!!!!!  Since most of our interactions with most of the other humans on this planet are economic in nature, you are absolutely correct.  My capital will stay in hiding until it is safe for it to come out and play.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:38 | 289731 Quintus
Quintus's picture

Whereas, because it is audited regularly and independently, we can be completely sure that Fort Knox is absolutely stuffed with all the stated gold reserves.  Not Tungsten.  Or receipts from JPM for all the gold they have leased and sold.

Yeah sure.

Imagine the surprise on the face of Auric Goldfinger if he were to break into Fort Knox today and only then realised the huge flaw in his plan....


Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:44 | 289753 samsterns
samsterns's picture

It was Auric Goldfinger not Erno.  And the Fed and Treasury already fulfilled Goldfinger's plan.  Remember he did not want to steal the gold at Fort Knox, just detonate a radiological device that would render the gold useless for 50 years or so.  Right now that would be the equivalent of the Comex and electronic paper gold.  If we can bust the paper gold exchange/traders and force all future gold trade to be in physical, then our physical gold would experience the same rapid appreciation as Auric had hoped his would have enjoyed had he succeeded.


Funny how Auric teamed up with the Chinese in the movie to help him take advantage of the chaos that his plan would unleash.  Might not the Chinese have an important role in this version in helping to bust the Comex in our real life scenario?  Fact is stranger than fiction.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:52 | 289782 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Thank you samsterns for the correction.  I will have Goldfinger's people remove you from the list.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:22 | 289891 clymer
clymer's picture

I wouldn't care if that Gold was radioactive! I would slather my self all over it naked until I was hairless and toothless, muttering "precious.. Oh, my precious.."" through bleeding gums.  Once I was sufficiently terminal, I would locate some kind central banker and give him a naked, bleeding bear hug (hoping for cross-contamination of the radioactivity).


A person can dream

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:36 | 290242 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Seems that GATA is playing the role of Auric Goldfinger for us gun toting, goldbugs.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 22:18 | 291008 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

80 million gold eagles served (just a number) ....but whos counting? anyone?

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 23:19 | 291070 The Disappointed
The Disappointed's picture

Pussy Galores's Flying Circus!

Where's Oddjobs? Oh yeah, he got electrocuted.

(huffing nerve gas(

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:38 | 289734 KidHorn
KidHorn's picture

CEF says it's gold is stored in a canadian bank. Did CEF have to fly the gold in from Hong Kong? Something doesn't make sense.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:43 | 289747 Quintus
Quintus's picture

It makes perfect sense.  Just like the Comex, the LBMA, GLD and SLV - all they have is vaults full of empty racking, with the occasional moth fluttering about in the wide open spaces where the metal used to be.  When someone calls their bluff and demands delivery, all hell breaks loose and they scramble about attempting to acquire metal from whichever central bank will help dig them out of the hole into which they have dug themselves.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:53 | 289785 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

That is because Hong Kong is part of Canada.  No.  Wait a minute.  I think I have that backwards.  It is Vancouver that is part of China. 

Now does it make sense?  No?  Sorry.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:06 | 289842 Lionhead
Lionhead's picture

Yes, they do, but NOT the Scotia Bank.  Go here & read the 1st Quarter report:

The bullion is held in the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. The headline of this post in not correct.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:14 | 289871 43 Steelie
43 Steelie's picture

I would have to agree with Lionhead here. I'm failing to see the link here between Scotia and CEF.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:57 | 289921 Quintus
Quintus's picture

Lovely document.  Nice layout - lots of comforting words on it.  Does it prove anything?  No.  If you think it does, well I've got some lovely Madoff vintage documents for you demonstrating beyond doubt that 'Ol Bernie's on the level.

Listen to the Interview.  Lenny Organ, through his broker pestered CEF for months to get access to actually see the gold he and Harvey owned.  Eventually they showed him, in the company of his broker, the vault described above.   

You'd have thought that CEF would know which vault Lenny's gold was in.  You must also consider the Hong Kong sourced delivery above.  Why do that if they have 67m ounces to hand in their own vault.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 14:13 | 290193 truont
truont's picture

No, the Organs did not pester CEF.

They had their private gold from the COMEX transferred to the only physical metal vault in Canada:  ScotiaMocatta's vault at 40 King Street West in Toronto.

CEF is in the clear for now.  ScotiaMocatta is not.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:50 | 290893 Crime of the Century
Crime of the Century's picture

I have some Scotia ozt bars, and it bothered me when I received them that they are not serialized. Oh, the assay card has a number inside the plastic case, but they didn't bother to etch it on the bar itself. Pamp and Heraeus do, so I am concerned that Scotia had Valcambi forgo that step. Why?

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:34 | 289934 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

I'm also with Lionhead.  CEF is certainly not GLD. 

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:35 | 289935 Lux Fiat
Lux Fiat's picture

Unlike GLD, CEF has regular audits of its holdings.  However, when the story from Rob Kirby about tungsten bars broke, along with concerns about the Canadian Mint having issues with melting "gold" bars, I ditched my CEF.  They may have all the silver and gold bars as claimed, but unless each one has been assayed to rule out tungsten cores, etc., there is a chance that all that glitters is not solid gold and silver.  It's a chance I wasn't willing to take.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:29 | 290086 lucky 81
lucky 81's picture

Embry of sprott did a walk through and inventory as a director of cef's bullion a few months ago as required by their officers and he laughed at the question when asked ,'is it all there'. he said yes.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 13:45 | 290132 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

no, they just had to dig that deep to keep it away from JPM.. so it is technically closer to  Hong Kong

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 20:54 | 290897 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Ah!..................I feel so much better.

Instead of STORING it in a Demoratic/Socialist institution, it's kept in a RED CHINESE Vault?.What's the likelihood of (if the SHTF), of your having a snowballs chance at getting it from Hong Kong?.


This stinks to high heaven.

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