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The Latest Gold Fraud Bombshell: Canada's Only Bullion Bank Gold Vault Is Practically Empty
Continuing on the trail of exposing what is rapidly becoming one of the largest frauds in commodity markets history is the most recent interview by Eric King with GATA's Adrian Douglas, Harvey Orgen (who recently testified before the CFTC hearing) and his son, Lenny, in which the two discuss their visit to the only bullion bank vault in Canada, that of ScotiaMocatta, located at 40 King Street West in Toronto, and find the vault is practically empty. This is a relevant segue to a class action lawsuit filed against Morgan Stanley, which was settled out of court, in which it was alleged that Morgan Stanley told clients it was selling
them precious metals that they would own in full and that the company
would store, yet even despite charging storage fees was not in actual possession of the bullion. It appears that this kind of lack of physical holdings by all who claim to have gold in storage, is pervasive as the actual gold globally is held primarily in paper or electronic form. Lenny Organ who was the person to enter the vault of ScotiaMocatta, says "What shocked me was how little gold and silver they actually had." Lenny describes exactly how much (or little as the case may be) silver was available - roughly 60,000 ounces. As for gold - 210 400 oz bars, 4,000 maples, 500 eagles, 10 kilo bars, 10 one kilogram pieces of gold nugget form, which Adrian Douglas calculates as being $100 million worth, which is just one tenth of what the Royal Mint of Canada sold in 2008, or over $1 billion worth of gold. As Orgen concludes: "The game ends when the people who own all these paper obligations say enough and take physical delivery, and that's when the mess will occur."
Also note the interesting detour into what Stephan Spicer of the Central Fund Of Canada, said regarding his friend at a major bank, who wanted access to his 15,000 oz of silver, and had to wait 6-8 weeks for its to be flown in from Hong Kong.
It is funny that central bankers thought they could take the ponzi mentality of infinite dilution of all assets coupled with infinite debt issuance, as they have done to fiat money, and apply it to gold, in essence piling leverage upon leverage. They underestimated gold holders' willingness to be diluted into perpetuity - when the realization that gold owned is just 1% of what is physically deliverable, you will see the biggest bank run in history.
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First thanks to TD for retracting the incorrect headline of this post. Second, I agree with ZKplate on Wed, 04/07/2010 - 12:58 #290010 . Go back folks & listen carefully to the King Worldinterview a few times around the part where they discuss Stefan Spicer of CEF. You will not hear any connection with Scotia bank, only that he was extremely upset that his friend who demanded delivery at Scotia could not get it. Moreover, he was willing to assist the principals from GATA regarding the incident. This does not sound to me like a man who is caught up in the fraud. I hope all take the time to listen again to the interview & hear what was actually said.
KidHorn, CEF did not fly any gold or silver in for anyone. Listen to the interview & it will make sense.
First comment here and yes I'm a financial dweeb.
But isn't this article just describing fractional reserve banking?
No.
for more information read this http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf
Another book to read. Thanks.
Don't worry. We'll make more...
:D
maybe that is why coin demand is cratering
Didn't know it was cratering... and I don't think that is a logical deduction of the problem. In fact, most of their holdings should be deliverable bars, not coin. Coin is the realm of the smaller holding and shouldn't have a relational impact. If anything, people knowing that CEF is a "shell" would increase demand in all stripes.
Didn't know it was cratering...
It's not. You are absolutely correct. In fact, sales of eagles from the US mint are literally flying compared to last year and last year was a big increase from the year before that, etc...
http://www.coinnews.net/2010/01/24/us-mint-silver-eagle-sales-top-3-million-best-ever-january/
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_08/hamilton031210.html
Ya out of stock, out of stock, out of stock. It's cratering on the supply side.
Demand is very high; witness the high premiums on coins. Also, the US mint has stopped supplying many coins, fractionals, buffalos, etc.
I was being ironic. Articles on bloom recently touting demand tankage for the UK mint and Austrian vintage
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=as5Bmo1JJ97E
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=alkB2RgF2eCI
more gas mouth reply , where is this demand for coins going down lol
Well, well, well. Twice a week now we get more hints of what looks to be the biggest fraud of all time. If all the gold really is "gone", we have had plenty of warning. At least those of us who pay attention.
Owning physical gold is the only solution to cover the wealth preservation and insurance- against-government-induced-calamity functions.
ANYONE reading now from this point on who does not physically own gold should not cry later when the GLD, JPM, COMEX, etc. all go down and the gold is gone.
ASK YOURSELF: do you really trust that these ETFs have the gold they claim and GLD's counterparties that store said gold are not leasing it out or creating/forming/leveraging some other paper gold on top of their paper gold. As an example, GLD can hold NOT GOOD bars for proper delivery to the market and they do not insure their gold holding. Add to that, there are many other serious situations one should consider before choosing GLD or other ETFs.
Read GLD's 10-k filing at www.spdrgoldshares.com/media/GLD/file/10k_Sept08.pdf and pay special attention to pages 54 to 62.
Bottom line, if you want to invest in gold i would do as GLD's largest shareholder did about a year ago.... they sold their GLD holdings and purchased physical metal and took delivery. In this day and age counterparty risk is to be avoided imho.
Within the terms of their prospectus, GLD could have a vault full of marshmallows instead of gold and you would not be able to do anything about it because "It's all disclosed in the prospectus".
Marshmallows....yum! So if one puts it between 2 FNRs, is it a S'more?
I'm sure that the Canadians have the remaining gold/silver bullion stored at their disaster recovery facility under a salt dome somewere in central Saskatchewan.
And we can be well assured that the 60k ounces that were available were not tungsten-cored.
Right????
Note to self: Develop side-drilling gold mining equipment to steal burried gold reserves much like stratigic oil reserves.
Pretty sure all the gold thats in Canada is now owned by Sprott.
Well not sure this is the biggest fraud of all time... I mean what it's probably what 10-20 trillion tops (if they were forced cover their frauds which they won't), is that even big money anymore? I'm sure there are bigger frauds out there look at the Federal Reserve. The problem with saying biggest frauds is there are so many epic ones that defy imagination it will be hard to find the biggest of them all.
Of course everyone should take possession, otherwise they are just donating their money to the holding company.
sinclair
Gold’s window is still open here because those that know what is coming are still accumulating. Expect it to be closed by year end. That means if you don’t have any, don’t expect to be able to get any.
Hope he's wrong. I happen to think they will keep the ball in the air for a while longer, but that may be blind hope. I need till at least Jan, preferably Feb. Prices going up stings but I will need to turn in Fun Buxs for PMs around that time.
New Jim Willie article at 24hgold.com. Jim is always good for a smile.
...
Gold is $1150, up $16 as I write. Bite the bullet Shameful. Pull the trigger! Go buy some gold already!
Yes you can!
I just bought 3 weeks ago, and mixed it up with Philharmonics. :) I'm looking at my account and I could only scrape together enough for 1 oz (and be tapped out)...but I prefer to order at least 2 at a time to duck the shipping cost (CNI is a good shop).
My worry is back to my folks. They are going into gold with their savings and excess cash but still looking at their 401k as the possible time bomb it is. They couldn't even grab without 10% hit right now, another reason my dad wants to wait for the new year (though he could pull in August without the hit). Better or worse they won't go into metal till Jan, at least I have them convinced about the future of paper money. They were gold bugs back in the day but stopped buying in the mid 90s, to many expenses and they thought their 401ks would be enough.
I don't know a lot about retirement acounts so please for give me for prying but I have noticed a lot of cites like apmex offer IRAs in precious metals. Can't really say more than that cause I am not all that sure how an IRA works.
Other than that I would buy silver if I were you. Silver is going to go up at least 3-4x as much as gold.
IRA would be willing to look at, but right now they are both employed. Now APMEX does not hold it another company does and I have not researched how secure they are. However if there is a run on gold or silver my concern is they would just take it and give you paper. But that is a problem when they retire. I know my mom is hoping for a layoff package. They offered my dad a pittance for early retirement for last year, now he is hoping they do so again. But as long as they work no 401k access. My mom might IRA to duck the withdrawal hit, it will depend on how much they are eyeing accounts and how likely it is that accounts are seized.
I'm in both. I went way overweight in silver when it was down around 13, now pushing gold up, parents have more silver then I do. For me I'm looking at gold because when I expat out I don't want to have to haul multiple bags of silver out with me. Though I suppose it would be amusing to show up in a strange exotic land, loaded to the gills with metal :)
Before you go, try to get an idea of how corrupt Customs is in your target country. You do not want to donate all your savings to the Jefe de Aduanas.
I did not bother to declare my gold upon arrival.
Will do. Right now top of the heap is Singapore and Hong Kong which both have good ratings for not being corrupt but I'll look into it further, and I may end up elsewhere if I can hook up with a multinational on the way out. Which looks good I did a net search and there are jobs I'm qualified for and plenty of them at the moment. Would be funny to go work for MicroSoft...in Shanghai.
I'm probably going to see if my mom wants to trade out my silver for her gold. She wants to get more silver now that she is going to stick around, since she can just use that money to buy more gold to swap with me anyway instead of buying the silver direct. Besides I'm paranoid enough to want it as carry one, and the silver would be intresting. I would it rather sit on my lap the whole trans-Pacific flight then trust it to the throwers :)
Airline Attendant: "Sir are you alright?"
Shameful: "No...I have 50lbs of silver on my balls...4 hours down 6 more to go..."
"But as long as they work no 401k access."
Have them check with their PLAN provider.
If the 401k holder is 59.5yrs old, it can be rolled into a Traditional IRA (a block from home), and NO hit ( 10% penalty).
The only amount most PLANS will not let you remove is the contributions the company matched.
Otherwise there's an excellent chance they can get closer to it.(2-3 days,or less, conversion to cash, or 2-3weeks + from the 401k).
Any funds in CD's,IRA's, and 401k's, WILL get nailed..just a question of when.
As Schiff said, YOU should already have all your dollars OUT of dollars....and that was a year ago.
As for Silver, IF we were in normal times, due to supply ,I would agree heavy on the Slvr to Gld at this point.
Since we are far from normal, Gld is universally accepted,far easier to move large $$ amounts(size/Wt ratio) and as Sinclair said, you do not need a U-Haul to move it.
Have your folks take out a loan on the 401K, and buy gold with it. There are potential complications with this so do your homework.
Bought some harmonics in November when gold was going parabolic - paid 785 Euro + a massive premium.
I was thinking something big was going down at Christmas - apparently insuring the entire debt of the Fannies was no big deal !
I was pissed off with myself at the time but now I am more comfortable with my decision - sometimes panicking can be the right emotion
It's a small world - bought the same 2 coins, the same week, from the same company. Only been hanging around a few weeks, but I'm learning!
CNI is good, was pleasantly surprised. I like APMEX but to be honest I will probably not order with them again for most things. Tulving is awesome if you have the bankroll for the minimum, and CNI is solid, good prices and free shipping to sweeten the deal.
Just an observation, but if they consider it a time bomb, call the 10% loss the cost of the insurance of no harm from any explosion in paper products. Is the possibility of a big loss better than 90% now?
Seriously, NOMINAL numbers are just illusions. Think in REAL terms. Then you can be happy, or at least a little relaxed.
I've asked around but still haven't gotten a consensus. Is it better to buy coins with 'name' recognition (eg, maple leafs, philharmonics, eagles) or plain rounds (or even the very small bars)? The plain rounds are much less expensive than the name coins but what's the long-term value of each?
It depends what you think will happen. Mad Max scenario, will it make a difference, as long as the coin is REAL? Or lets say America wakes up, audits the Fed, and backstops the currentsea (whatever the new one may be) with gold/silver, maybe the tendered coins (Eagles/Maples etc) will be worth most....I dunno. I like 'em all.
It would be interesting to see what Eric Sprott has to say about this.
I imagine he would say "You should have invested in my Sprott Physical Gold Trust' fund. :-)
Of course Sprott can't buy IMF gold: There isn't any!
Yes, simply a matter of protocol. The protocol is that the IMF never puts itself in a position that might disclose that it has no gold at all, might disclose that the IMF has only the most tenuous claim on the gold reserves of its members and that its supposed gold transactions are really only bookkeeping entries whose primary purpose is indeed to spook the gold market.
http://www.gata.org/node/8511
+1!
Only bookkeeping entries!
Who keeps the bookkeepers books, eh?
Books<metal.
IMF is selling their Tungsten to Japan at $1125 an OZ...jesus I haven't said that in awhile. When the hell are they selling that Tungsten anyway? I hate you IMF.
"Hey Bill it's Eric." "BUURP. Hey Eric, whatstheyou doin? Berp." "Did you hear, another bank is not holding what they said they had!" "What? Thes eth [berp] great! Want to come over to have a drink?" "It's eight in the morning Bill." "Yeah well I'm celebrating." "But I thought I broke the news to you?" "Yeah, well, I'm....celebrating my birthday." "It's not your birthday." "Yeah, well....just let me be happy." "Ok, buddy. I'll talk to you later." "Hey Eric?" "Yes Bill?" "Want to come ver for a [berp] drink." "You just asked me that Bill." "I did?" "Yes." "Oh. Ok.....did you say yes?" "No." "Oh...ok."
Oil down, stocks down, gold up? I've been expecting this to start happening for quite awhile... is the *real* flight to safety finally taking place?
One would think that this kind of news, these revelations, would spook the market, particularly the Gold market. And this might have something to do with the Gold ramp over the past few days. But when the herd are all in the same boat headed down and no way out, it's comforting to know you are not alone. Many people don't panic in these situations though they might cry out in fear or emotional distress.
But intuitively they understand that if they break for the door with the last of the life preservers, they will start a panic, thus preventing them from getting to the door. So they make the mental calculation, sometimes unconsciously, that's it's best to remain seated and suffer with the rest of the herd.
Again, one must not look at this from an educated and informed point of view, for this wouldn't make any sense. It must be seen from the uninformed and self deluded perspective of the trend follower, the middle of the pack huddler, the go with the flow safety view that it's better to die with the herd than die alone and lonely.
My fellow ZHer's might find it difficult to adopt this perspective but it would be profitable of you were to wear those shoes every now and then. What I'm really saying is that the herd will ignore these stories for quite a while longer than you would think possible. BUT when the panic starts, there will be blood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml2Ae2SIXac
+1. Very challenging.
CD, ZeroHedge ought to promote you to Senior Author (or equivalent of General in the US Army).
When the panic comes there will be blood. Touché.
ZeroHedge feels like home now. Virtual home anyway.
"CD, Zero Hedge ought to promote you to Senior Author (or equivalent of General in the US Army)."
LOL. I assume you're pulling my leg. Or some other part of my anatomy.
They're afraid I might ask for compensation. As far as they're concerned, the chump (meaning moi) is already doing it for free. Don't put any ideas in his head. :>)
CD, no it was sincere, maybe overblown. Not pulling anything, LOL.
Your take on things is so good that in my eyes The Tylers That Be (TTTB) really should be paying you. Say $0.001 per post after any of your comments...
Meanwhile, we wait for the gold heavy-hitters (Gordon, Chumba, etc.) to sign in. Sure have been a LOT of comments REAL FAST since this thread started.
Anything GOLD on ZH is like shit to the flies. It brings out the best and worst of ZH. At least I thought that until the Wikileaks article the other day with the video of the killing.
Quite frankly (my apologies for stating an opinion that might insult others) I was a bit ashamed by what I read in the comments from both sides. There was no middle ground, just instant fight to the bloody death and it was ugly.
No doubt there were trolls in there but I wish some of the more seasoned ZHer's would stop, think and realize they were being baited with month old meat. Even if they get hold of it, it was just going to make them as sick as their tormentors.
CD, this is a reply to an earlier post.
I would actually expect the price of gold and silver to plummet on the comex on this news. Although some traders could cause a massive short squeeze in these markets I don't see how it would benefit them to do so unless they wanted to simply bankrupt banks like JPM for shits and giggles. I think anyone with the kind of money to cause a short squeeze would benefit from it as they would lose real money and the beneficiaries would be people who regulate the industry and make a profit off of the trades.
I see it much more likely that prices on the comex will plummet and premiums will soar until the comex just explodes.
And you could very well be correct. In fact, if we accept that there is manipulation of Gold and the story is getting out and you're the manipulator, what kind of response would you engineer to keep people feeding into the paper market?
Lower prices is what I would do.
Right! Until the Crimex price becomes becomes the law of the land and anyone who demands 'premiums' is branded 'Hoarder'.
Get ready to be named a terrorist.
Wait: am I the flies or the shit in this analogy?
:)
As far as my contributions to that aforementioned posting, I can't, and won't, disguise my rage and contempt for the despicable actions that other take in my name. The time for civility is passed. Now, there must be blood.
I am Chumbawamba.
chumbawamba
You are neither. You are the official ZH shit stirrer, the bee in the bonnet and the skunk in the wood pile. You are exactly what every society needs in order to remain on the straight and narrow footpath and thus exactly what every snake oil salesman, Ponzi paper pusher and liar, cheat and thief hates.
You are exactly where you need to be and doing precisely what needs to be done. You speak truth to power and regardless of how twisted your enemies try to make the argument, you ALWAYS put it back on track.
Thank you for your contribution to ZH.
BTW, always remember that a deity doesn't need to make excuses for his actions. A deity just needs to rain thunder and lighting upon the unbelievers. Fuck em if they can't take a joke.
:>)
+1
Is this you, CD?
http://www.myweirdstory.com/images/gallery/374.jpg
:-]
Here's one for the paperbugs:
http://craziestgadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/dollar_toilet_bowl...
Yup, mom always told me to clean up behind myself.
Here's a couple for the PaperBugs, courtesy of the Fed.
+1000... Awesome toilet!
Hilarious.
"As far as my contributions to that aforementioned posting, I can't, and won't, disguise my rage and contempt for the despicable actions that other take in my name. The time for civility is passed. Now, there must be blood."
You sound like a Weatherman type. And you said before, in another thread, that if you were going to protest it wouldn't be with words. Yeah, bring the war home, Chumbawamba. Whose blood are you going to target exactly?
Doesn't matter - as long as it helps the price of gold. (sarcasm off)
CD you're not doing it for free, I'm beaming you loads of gratitude, on the astral plane
I just now received the package. Many thanks.
+1
You know, you can be freaky scary sometimes.
Can't have educated sheeple: Too difficult to lead to slaughter.
As several have pointed out, it works fine--until it doesn't.
The people releasing this news have been marginalized by the MSM. No further attention required.
by Cognitive Dissonance
on Wed, 04/07/2010 - 10:48
#289760
One would think that this kind of news, these revelations, would spook the market, particularly the Gold market. And this might have something to do with the Gold ramp over the past few days. But when the herd are all in the same boat headed down and no way out, it's comforting to know you are not alone. Many people don't panic in these situations though they might cry out in fear or emotional distress.
But intuitively they understand that if they break for the door with the last of the life preservers, they will start a panic, thus preventing them from getting to the door. So they make the mental calculation, sometimes unconsciously, that's it's best to remain seated and suffer with the rest of the herd.
Again, one must not look at this from an educated and informed point of view, for this wouldn't make any sense. It must be seen from the uninformed and self deluded perspective of the trend follower, the middle of the pack huddler, the go with the flow safety view that it's better to die with the herd than die alone and lonely.
My fellow ZHer's might find it difficult to adopt this perspective but it would be profitable of you were to wear those shoes every now and then. What I'm really saying is that the herd will ignore these stories for quite a while longer than you would think possible. BUT when the panic starts, there will be blood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml2Ae2SIXac
Cognitive Dissonance,
Quoting you... "Again, one must not look at this from an educated and informed point of view, for this wouldn't make any sense." I would compare what is available, broadly... verses what is consistently available here... and whole heartedly dis-agree with your summation that informed views are in fact presented by educated people (by and large).
If you would like to discuss the fundamental or broader underlying physiological barriers most would have to conquer to grasp “Some” of the information presented here daily…
I am all for opening a discussion or dialogue that would lead to a dumb downed or more palatable presentation of the facts… so that our conversations would be more available to the world… so that broader sheepish masses may use said information to the benefit of all…
But who has time? Who has the ability to span the chasm of ignorance with a charisma well received by most? what language would we choose? as the primary delivery vehicle? for the message?
As for your 4 paragraphs of “It must be seen from the uninformed and self deluded perspective of the trend follower, the middle of the pack huddler, the go with the flow safety view that it's better to die with the herd than die alone and lonely.” And no offering of a helping hand to spread the word… no direction for all other than burry your head in the sand? No hope, just its all over and the huddled masses are doomed and all that stand with them… the ignorant masses by and large suffer every day at the hand of those more knowledgeable. You are offering only bad news… basically you sound like every body’s wife here… all the fucking problems you can think of minus any real solution to the problem… so how about if you see a problem, work on a solution for the problem… or don’t bitch about the problem until such time as a answer to the problem has materialized in that whinny, bitchy lil fucking head of yours.
4 paragraphs of doom and gloom… 4 paragraphs of the end is near… 4 paragraphs of bullshit!
See a problem, fucking fix the problem or don’t get involved…
Or go spread the word and pray for the end… you fucking evangelicals should be rounded up and shot.
Praying for the end of America is Treason.
Sincerely, JW
So you're the guy who's been junking my posts.
BTW, put me down for 10 of whatever you're smoking, drinking, injecting or swallowing. It looks like good stuff.
+ $1150
Hey CD, get 20 of whatever he's doing and send me 10!
LOL.
People also junk things they think are cool. You "got that junk" man!
ZH allows votes, but not in any particular direction. As when you call a friend "My niggaz", context is everything.
Oh, is that how we are doing it. Then Coug, u my kneicka! ;)
Shut the fuck up man.
All you do is copy/paste/junk.
WTF; did the glue you sniffed to suppress the memories of high-school deepthroating by the jock-squad you experienced kill your brain cells or were you just born dumb as shit.
He definately wasn't born that way. Takes a lifetime of neglecting every opertunity to think to get that stupid.
Compounding the problem, Cheeky, is the apparent fact that English is not his native tongue.
All sorts of things come to mind after having said that, but I'll stay civil and stop now.
No, please, don't hold back. I'm looking forward to furthering my education. :>)
You've covered the pertinent points in your missive about DENIAL below, CD.
Not much more I could add. Those who are in the deepest state of denial are the most vociferous and cruel. Sprinkling their language with unwarranted foul language is the dead give-away. (Lest it be said that I am against foul language -- go fuck yourself. I said "unwarranted" language.) It is the bastion of the mentally calcified.
heh. Looks like more than one ZH'er clips comments...
What is with Cheeky these days? He used to "contribute". Now, it's like the guy comes out of some dormant slumber and attacks. You have become ugly like your avatar, Cheeky. Some people may be afraid of you, but I'm not - and I wouldn't shit you Cheeky - you are my favorite turd. Go get some help.
Someone needs a nap.
You are reffering to the swiss bankers, right? All of this currentsea manipulation is making them tired. :(
"Again, one must not look at this from an educated and informed point of view, for this wouldn't make any sense. It must be seen from the uninformed and self deluded perspective of the trend follower, the middle of the pack huddler, the go with the flow safety view that it's better to die with the herd than die alone and lonely.
My fellow ZHer's might find it difficult to adopt this perspective but it would be profitable of you were to wear those shoes every now and then. What I'm really saying is that the herd will ignore these stories for quite a while longer than you would think possible. BUT when the panic starts, there will be blood."
Sounds like a possible solution too me. Maybe not the exact, or correct.
Were you looking for "Press any key to continue"?
Or "Press one for Spanish"?
Telling children it's alright, to stay in the theater basement to "wait for help" while the theater burns "so they don't get scarred" is murder.
Insightful! I like the comment at the end of the interview that mentioned buying a lifeboat on the Titanic. When all the boats are gone, they will settle with cash. Talk about dying with the herd....
The deeper one is into their own denial, the harder they will work to avoid embarrassment that might expose their own denial to the world and to themselves. Thus by sticking with others who are also in denial, the risk of exposure is dramatically reduced. This is the principal behind misery loves company and dysfunctional relationships.
We need to understand that the impulse to deny, then deny the denial, is as strong (if not stronger) than any drug or alcohol addiction. The brain releases extremely powerful chemicals into the brain and blood stream when the denial is reinforced with additional denial or information that confirms the denial. These chemicals are a hundred times stronger than any man made pain killers or drugs to elevate the mood.
This phenomum must be viewed as an addiction if one is to gain any understanding of it and the consequences of it. It's not surprising to hear that someone addicted to crack would rob someone of money to feed their habit. Why are we surprised by the abject denial people exhibit to remain unaware of the details? The details are where the devil is because there is great difficulity in denying the actual facts, the who, what, where, when and why.
As long as it is "just" greed or corruption, big picture overviews, they can acknowldge it's existence safely without much of a problem because they've already explained it away by some twisted logic or emotional escape. Greed and run of the mill corruption is common and expected and nothing new. Everyone knows that. The details are where the rubber meets the road because it's so much harder to reject the actual details.
The drive to remain in denial is just as strong for the denier as the impulse to obtain drugs is to the addict. The mental gymnastics and emotional hoops one will go through in order to get their fix is astounding. At some point, as with any serious addiction, there is nothing one won't do to get their fix. Nothing.
I am very grateful for your comments and will pass them along to a friend of mine whom I have been trying to convince that the ship is sinking (remember the scene in Titanic where the guys in steerage are trying to figure out where to go and they follow the little rats who are leading the way?). And, by the way, this friend is a Doctor of Psychology! How's that for irony.......
The doctors of the discipline are often least likely to see it in themselves. I'll say no more but I've begun an article on this subject. It will not make some people happy.
Rest assured your friend will tell you about witch doctors and popularly misconstrued opinions and myths and misconceptions etc etc etc. Once the denial train has left the station and has a full head of steam up, anything is possible when the only goal is to remain in denial.
I speak about addiction to explain and to illustrate parallels, not to make fun of the addicted. It's a horrible condition. But one must step back and think for a second. What level of denial and mental gymnastics is involved for someone to pour a quart (or more) of alcohol down their throat on a dailybasis? How can a person get to that point? What was involved? While there is certainly a physically addictive component, it's not the ONLY component (nor even the strongest) because the alcoholic can stop in an instant. Just visit any AA meeting for proof. One must look deeper to understand.
I would have to argue that the physical addiction may well be psychosomatically based, which may make it somewhat of a contradiction in terms.
Also, denial may apply to goldbugs in a kind of reverse to your above example, which is what makes many of us happy to read the posts of GG and Chumba. There is no way to be 100% sure what was the right move until after TSHTF.
Disclosure: physical addiction to gold, psychosomatic addiction to ZH.
Agreed on both points. RockyRaccoon was pointing this out elsewhere.
We all practice denial in many forms.
I have a strict practice I try to follow. I must always challenge my thinking. As far as I'm concerned, the more certain I am that I'm correct, the higher the probability I'm wrong. Simply put, the more certain I am, the less likely it is that I will entertain information contrary to my belief system. After all, why should I look at contrary information when I'm correct. Perfectly circular logic that eventually dooms me to failure. This makes it more likely that there will be a surprise in my future and not in my favor.
By its very nature, certainty implies a closed mind.
We all practice denial in many forms.
Not me... :-)
Methinks MasterBates should hear those words...
I'm just sayin'.
Good stuff CD.
That Morgan story is rich! Having pitched for them in the past I can hear my fellow brokers on the phone now, " hey Doc, you wanna own gold but not worry about gettin robbed? Have I gutta idea fa you."
Could the coming gold shitstorm be the reason the Rothschilds withdrew from further participation in the gold market.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-rothschild-story-a-golden-era-ends-for-a-secretive-dynasty-756388.html
It only makes sense if the family holds [which I am sure it does] vast personal gold holding which would skyrocket in value if/when the full story about the gold market comes out.
EDIT: Disregard the link; didn't see the date on the article. Old news.
The Rothschilds withdrew (i.e. were forced out) as a condition of being bailed out following the Gordon Brown gold sales...
That was the cover story. Who do you think has the UK's gold? You seriously think the Rothchild's needed a bailout???
I am Chumbawamba.
On the same note, Chumba, there was no documented ship-load of gold arriving in India when they off-loaded the gold from the IMF. It was all an accounting balancing act for sure. The proles are not the only ones shuffling paper about in lieu of the real thing.
1)How do you know the physical Gold you have is real. 2)There's still miners shares
And just where do the miners hold their gold?
First they don't hold their Gold. It's sold into the market almost immediately, if it wasn't already sold via long term contracts. You buy miners for what has not been mined but can reasonably be determined can be mined.
They hold their Gold in the ground, to answer your question.
+1
Struggled with this for some time now, but confidence is growing with miners... 3:1 leverage, and no delivery worries. I highly recommend Sprott Funds in Canada (only through a financial planner)... they have a mix of precious metal funds and manage them very well (my major investment is + 33% in four months and they seem to be weathering the periodic take-downs well).
Regarding the interview, suppose this may be the only "bank" gold store, but I know for a fact the new Sprott Physical Gold Trust has $450B in the Canadian Mint and Mark faber has signed on to lead the audit process (so very safe IMO... delivery is 100% guaranteed).
Here's a link to their site, for those interested (Note: Other than as an investor, I have no financial interest in Sprott).
True in theory, the miners do not have a delivery worries but nationalization could change the recipient.
Exactly, CD. Just as the Saudis hold their oil in the ground. Both are accountable, assuming that the below-ground estimates are valid! If some geologist comes to me and tells me I have a billion barrels of oil laying just below the surface soil which is high in gold content -- I'm a rich man instantly. I can borrow money based on their paper analysis of what lies beneath my shrubbery. I can sell forward something that nobody has ever seen! And, NO, you cannot drink my milkshake. Go away...
juust buy the oz coins from a reputable dealer ,, which should have been going ion since gold 300,, golden eagles from the mint.
now we have those late to the dance .. dancing in circles .
trying to sound like they have a clue
Does CEF allow shareholders to exchange shares for physical?
if you own say the GLD etf can you demand delivery of physical or only if you are owner of the actual futures contracts?
You would have to own enough GLD to take 400toz bars. They won't slice some goldoff the end of a bar if your investment is only a few thousand bucks, so for most individuals you can't trade for physical.
I think neither. Most counterparties will try to settle the contracts in cash for the value of the contract + a x.x% premium.
No, the owner of a futures long can still take delivery, cancel the reciepts and request loadout. they are under no legal obligation to accept a cash settlement instead.
I have not mention legal obligations in taking cash settlement instead of the actual material settlement in my post. The thing i said is that most of the counterparties will try to settle the contract in cash+ a small premium on the contract price for you not to take the delivery [which you are fully entitled to] in the actual commodity [gold in this case]. Of course most of the traders will take the cash settlement with a premium [as will most others] instead of the actual physical delivery. That's way there is always enough physical stuff floating around to settle the physical delivery even-though the market is a fractional market up to 100-1.
All ETF issuers have it stated in the contract (buying the ETF = accpeting their contract) whether or not physical delivery is possible. My guess is that for most of them, where delivery is defined, the delivery is converted to cash. Hence you purchase a gold or silver etf in hopes of appreciation of the actual commodity, and when you want the actual item, they'll just give you lame cash instead.
The COMEX (CRIMEX) reserves the right to settle in cash, so that's probably all you'll get. Or even better, they also reserve the right to settle in...not making this up.... more GLD shares. Nice little scam eh?
Chapter and verse please... This does not appear anywhere in the rules:
http://www.cmegroup.com/rulebook/NYMEX/1a/113.pdf
Appeared several places last summer. Here's one of the links, which in turn from which one can connect to support documentation including relevant CFTC rules.
http://www.gata.org/node/7586
In my experience, all EFP transactions are voluntary. I have never been forced to accept terms I didn't want.
Don't know what to tell you, it's happening and the right to settle at their discretion in cash or GLD is right there in print. I just finished listening to the Eric King interview linked in this Zero Hedge article. They don't have the physical. They can't deliver what they don't have..all other points are academic. Outright fraud.
exactly. the only reason to allow settlement in GLD is if you aint got the physical you sold and are supposed to have.
sure if you own a large amount of shares ,
100,000 comes to mind
I would think the charging for storage would be the item that should get them in trouble. Those charges would indicate, and provide a trail, to how much precious metal should be in their vault.
+ $1130
If they charged for "storing" it, they better have been storing it. Seems to be an easy prosecution. When do they get started?
j.p. settled with a fine.. same old same old
Two words, National Security. It covers all crimes and forgives all sins. When Dick Fuld is behind bars then I might think the justice system works.
Bingo!
After the crime family takes down the system and every thing is teetering on the brink of extinction, it's easy to convince the victims to take another ass reaming if the only other choice is a bullet to the head.
Too crude. They won't be using threats to get people to take it up the behind, they'll be telling them it's a legitimate medical treatment and they should be thankful that it's being offered.
It's worth studying the ways that meat animals are lead to slaughter.
You said a mouth full. Please note while watching this short 2:35 minute video that only the yapping dogs loaded the cattle. No powers-that-be were exposed in the process, just the tools they employ to move the uninformed into the cattle car and on to the slaughter house.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_e50urf9ws
Clarification needed. The guy has a guesstimate of 60K ounces... But dont these bars alone make up more than 60,000 oz?
60k oz. referred to silver
Whoa, missed that. thanks
Just confirmed from the swiss bank I was in contact with that when they state "we can supply you with 25m ounces silver - no problem" they mean paper!
Take deliveeeeryyy!!
It's easy to buy 10kbpd of paper oil per day but incredibly hard at this point to lock up a REAL supply of that amount.
Why can't I do this? I have ten trillion bars of gold and I only charge 1%/yr for storage. Who wants some?
Who do you think you are, Kitco?
The line forms behind ME.
Pick me buzzsaw99, pick me. I haven't had a good ass reaming since, well.....since the last ass reaming. Ooooh it hurts so bad it actually feels good. :>)
As long as you can hire sufficient security to keep nosey reporters and accounts out of your repository you can make any claim you like.
As astounding as that statement is, it's the absolute truth. Aside from a higher level of sophistication, both in product and sales delivery, there's very little difference between what's going on today and the snake oil salesmen of the 19th century.
The head spins.
I thought that the underlying principal to the whole financial ponzi is in making sure impartial, objective and transparent assessments cannot be made.
and they buy anyway - cuz they reeeeely want to play in the game... baaaaah baaaaah meeeeh baaaah
Since I'm not Morgan Stanley we'd both get reamed if I took your money.
Yeah, but at least you would have been paid. :>)
LOL
CEF???????????????????????????????????????????
this is supposed to be the ONE ETF that actually has the gold.
moving everything over to Sprott. PHYS....screw 'em all. i'll stick with the bugs....
do the games ever end?
CEF states that at least 85% of its holdings must be in the form of physical bullion........ hrmmmmm...
If you listen closely to the interview, it it the vice-president of an unnamed bank who calls the president of CEF for assistance with his problem of getting delivery of his metal from Bank of Nova Scotia.
CEF is not involved in this story, only the President of CEF, and he is acting in the capacity of a friend/advisor to someone having difficulties with a 3rd party.
So far, CEF remains as a holder of fully segregated and allocated metals, held in vault of The Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. Not to say that this may be disproved in the future, but to me, not yet.
Ah, things are starting to get interesting....
Not surprisingly:
CEF +1.26%
GLD +1.25%
UGL is up double that.
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AUGL
If you believe in gold, why not use leverage?
how do you leverage physical possession..
its not a matter of believing in gold its a matter of trusting the leverage.. and the ability of the company to deliver .. you reading the stuff? or just bouncing here and their with two bit opinion .
You just imagine you have it.
Then you lend against it versus collateral. Then you get the obligor to default. Then you take possession of his shit. Then you unimagine you had the extra gold.
Please read the prospectus for UGL then come back here and try to criticize me for not doing my homework.
I see no scenario under which the derivatives based on gold could fail to deliver me an amount of money that grows at twice the rate at which the value of gold grows.
We are forced to use the dollar as our currency and it will always be worth something relative to gold.
So I don't care about physical gold or physical delivery of gold. I care about gold only insofar as it can give me more dollars than I paid for it.
I would rather use an ETF that grows at twice the rate of gold's growth in value on a daily basis.
Kindly explain to me a feasible scenario under which the mechanisms behind UGL, as described in its prospectus, would prevent it from growing at that rate on a daily basis.
Because leverage is for morons, like you.
I am Chumbawamba.
Coming from you, Chumba, I can only take that as a compliment.