Letter To Senator Charles Schumer - Ban Goldman's SIGMA X Dark Pool

Dear Senator Schumer,
You recently approached SEC head Mary Schapiro with some very valid concerns about Flash trading, and the potential for investor abuse by advance looks to select market participants ahead of the general order pool. Your crusade was subsequently enjoined by such equity market luminaries as Robert Greifeld, president and CEO of the Nasdaq Stock Market, who had this to say regarding not just Flash trades in particular, but numerous other components of market topology, whose sole purpose is to obfuscate natural order flow and to provide loopholes for dominant market players to extract inefficiencies (i.e., scalp regular investors) arising from established and SEC-endorsed mechanisms of efficient market circumvention:
"Flash orders, which are a fundamental part of high-frequency trading, are but one symptom of the current evolving market structure. Nasdaq OMX is concerned that the securities industry appears willing to accept more and more ‘darkness’ and limits on the availability of order information. Instead, the policy goal should be clear: to eliminate any order types or market structure policies that do not contribute to public price formation and market transparency.”
"The industry has a unique opportunity at this time to take a hard look at dark order types and the underlying market structure issues that do not support public price information.”
Senator Schumer, while Zero Hedge applauds your initiative, the truth is that the wrongdoing in the context of potential investor market abuse runs far deeper and is much more pervasive than you realize. And while one can highlight the merits of the Op-Ed published in the New York Times earlier by quant titan Paul Wilmott entitled "Hurrying Into The Next Panic" (a recommended read for you and your staff), which notes numerous frightening implications brought about by the domination of Hiqh Frequency Trading, let us stick within the context of advance looks, which is at the basis of your letter seeking the ban of Flash-like behavior.
Zero Hedge would like to highlight that while your letter to Mary Schapiro indicated your concern with such market actors as DirectEdge, BATS and Nasdaq, the truth is there are substantially larger and more dangerous "fish" on which you should focus your attention.
As a primary example, I would like to refer you to Goldman Sachs' dark pool, SIGMA X.
As evidence I present an analytical paper prepared by none other than Goldman Sachs, compliments of the Bank Holdings Company's GSET (Goldman Sachs Electronic Trading) division.
While I recommend you read the full report and other related literature (especially if you wish to understand why VWAP or Volume-Weighted Average Price is such a critical concept in modern trading), I would like to bring your attention to page 6 of this report, and in particular the following sections:
"The child orders generated by Goldman Sachs algorithms interact with SIGMA X liquidity."
...and...
"When a client routes a marketable order through SIGMA, the smart router first exposes the order to SIGMA X liquidity."
This basically means that as a Goldman algo strategy splits an incoming block trade into smaller (child) components, these orders will first be advance-exposed to Goldman's own prop strategies which get a "first look" (no pun intended) at the order flow to dispose of as they desire. Additionally, due to the flashing advance window, Goldman implicitly knows in advance of a potential spike in order flow - in other words if there is a size buyer or seller of any given particular stock - an incalculable edge in today's market, allowing one to potentially take advantage (frontrun) of forced buyins and unwinds and major block trades.
This provides the firm with a material advantage over other market participants.
In order to get a sense of the size of this potential abuse, as Goldman itself discloses, SIGMA X traded over 123 million (matched-only, single counted) shares daily in May, over 600 million per week. This is a staggering amount of shares over a cumulative extended period of time, and could potentially provide the firm with a substantial unfair advantage over other participants.
Furthermore, Goldman is a dominant Program Trading market player on the New York Stock Exchange, by virtue of its participation in the NYSE's Supplemental Liquidity Provider program. As publicly disclosed, Goldman traded over 796 million principal shares (for its own benefit, not as an agent) in the prior week alone, almost double the next largest market participant Credit Suisse which traded a total volume of just over 420 million shares.
Whether or not Goldman can implicitly take advantage of the advance looks Goldman receives compliments of its own dark pool, SIGMA X, and then subsequently reroutes this informational advantage to trades executed on the NYSE, and other exchanges and ECNs, is also a very pertinent question.
However, even if acting in a vaccum exclusively within the confines of SIGMA X, Goldman's modus operandi begs the question: if, as your letter discloses, you believe Flash-like behavior is a detriment to investors, we encourage your team to focus its attention on this matter. The potential abuse in the context of SIGMA X, is substantial, and much more so if it is not confined to the dark pool exclusively.
In conclusion, SIGMA X was conceived and brought to market via Spear, Leeds and Kellogg: I would like to present to you the form contract with Goldman that new customers have to sign when they agree to engage SLK for any client purposes. I bring your attention to the highlighted area:
Zero Hedge is happy to answer any questions at your convenience. You may contact us at sigmax@zerohedge.com
PS. In case readers are having trouble grabbing the original document, here is the link to the file saved internally.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Sigma X.pdf | 113.81 KB |


on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:26
#18569
Nice work
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:26
#18571
and this too should be banned:
http://breakingnews.nypost.com/dynamic/stories/U/US_ACCUSED_HORSE_MOLESTER?SITE=NYNYP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-07-29-16-11-59
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:40
#18600
Uhh, it is banned.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:11
#18637
Why? The horse was 21. I think it's legal in SC if the horse is at least 21.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:27
#18574
Only in Goldman's world can you add liquidity by taking money out.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:40
#18702
Ha! Thats a good way to put it
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:28
#18575
Namaste, you righteous bastards. "Every generation needs a new revolution," said Thomas Jefferson. Thanks for your part in leading ours.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:28
#18577
well done.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:32
#18580
This is the most relevant & important website in the financial universe.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:43
#18605
I second that. No comparison between ZH and CR. Can't think of another site that gives this sort of "insider" information. I just hope ZH remains free.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:04
#18680
i third that and if i might add that ZH is in the financial blogosphere what Gutenberg's press machine was in .... well the sphere of books, and i have no doubt whatsoever that there is a Pulitzer prize stashed somewhere in the following years for this blog and its creators ...
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:17
#18691
How cool would that be if a Pulitzer was given to someone who remained anonymous.
If they took it to their grave... Talk about creating a freakin' legend.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:42
#18705
The character Tyler Durden will eventually bring down the credit markets. love it.
Wonder if Chuck Palahniuk reads zero hedge?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:49
#18821
use your imagination, there is always someone to pick up the prize without breaking the true identity of TD
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:31
#19034
Rosie
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:24
#18973
here here. I couldn't agree more. Senator Schumer, I assume you will be preparing a subpoena for the good folks here at ZeroHedge so they can share further their learned insights into the workings of HFT.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:35
#18581
More Street Smart SIGMA X goodness:
http://gset.gs.com/cgi-bin/upload.dll/file.pdf?z0212210az518c49e6267b482...
How long til they take these offline do you think?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:37
#18593
already happened.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:42
#18596
WOW. Google cache of the same URL below. It actually was there. It took 2 minutes for them to take it down... and it's been up for months at that URL.
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://docs.google.com/gview%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dc...
More also at http://gset.gs.com/gset/education/thought.asp
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:43
#18604
holy **** it's now deleted off docs.google.com (click download on the cached page and see what happens)
Tyler you better have some backup copies of this little monster
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:44
#18610
Still up at the thought link posted above. Check the third page. Very weird.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:44
#18665
select the print (7pages) hyperlink...it will open as a pdf and just cancel the print
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:50
#18671
thanks, that worked
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:59
#18833
NO coincidence--there is alot of history getting rewritten, and facts suppressed. I have noticed it a few times on wikipedia, but i just thought my memory was off, until i read the deepcapture.com essay on how the whole naked short selling scandal that they helped to expose, is being blocked from report on wikipedia.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:44
#18607
ummm... how about ...already
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:50
#18619
Hey Cow, the bear beat you to it. Just sayin' :)
Also, to GS, THAT WASN'T A CHALLENGE. But, I'm still impressed.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:28
#18656
Jesus, TD you are the best. That said are you stocked up on kevlar longjohns?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:05
#18631
everything on their site self-destructs after a short period of time - e.g. you need to reload the search terms - and then save the PDF
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:20
#18649
Looks like you're right. However, it doesn't make any sense at all to be doing this. Security through obscurity? Force internal sites to use dynamic code to recreate the links every few minutes? When it's already publically available and cached?
Whatever. Someone got a nice bonus for the implementation I'm sure.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:44
#18879
Yeah... someone NOT the IT person who made it...
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:34
#18583
Killer as always
As an aside, saw on Bloomie ol' Obama said we is at the beginning of the end. Think a Churchill quote, (paraphrased of course because my memory is shot) might be more appropriate:
This isn't the end, or even the beginning of the end. It is perhaps the end of the beginning. . .
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:36
#18586
why just Sigma X? ban ALL dark pools
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:44
#18609
Further, no more invisible orders via ECNs which allows participants to step in front of what others see as the best bit/offer. I also have to ask if multiple ecns/marketcenters are really a good idea. One centralized marketcenter - with no competition, would make a flatter, more fair marketplace. The more avenues for execution the harder to regulate and the higher the chance of inequality. Now, I say that knowing that means someone has to run it fairly...which is an issue....
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:51
#18620
There is also a problem with having more than one ecn or execution avenue: it is not a first come first serve market. Years ago this was not as much of an issue, but now with so many ECNs and dark pools, investors bidding stock at a level first are often not the first filled as they may be unlucky and sitting on a different ecn than a sellor elects to take. The market should reward the first participant at the best price the first fill.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:36
#18588
Great post. Reading between the lines here, I suspect that Schumer may not be as benevolent as you think. In fact by pointing out some bad apples he may be finding a way that protects his key backers. I will leave it at that.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:12
#18638
Apocalypse Now- My sentiments exactly. This is a test. Testing, testing 1,2,3...
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:47
#18706
I doubt that Schumer is benevolent--and I'm sure he's taken quite a bit of money from the FIRE industries. However, Schumer needs to at least play up doing something about this, lest the plebs (some of them well armed) become very, very unhappy with blatant giveaways. He can make noise and possibly get bigger bribes from GS or whoever gets in the crosshairs. But at least he can't say he didn't know, because Tyler is pointing it out to him in technicolor detail.
P.S. I just got my Zero Intelligence shirt, can't wait to parade around town!
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:35
#19036
Tyler and friends you have to love it. You have the smartest people in the room walking around town with shirts on that say "Zero Intelligence." Like they're all like little Hugh Axtons.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:08
#18726
My exact thought..., or could be they are so dumb that they stepped in the crap before looking and now opened up further inspection of GS and others.... One can only hope on the latter.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:39
#18589
Perhaps it might be simpler to note that even the sharpest minds couldn't possibly be thinking about anything in 30 msec..they only feel comfortable trading 123 million shares in a day for its own account when there is zero risk..and they thus have exactly no need to hedge..duh! they are zero hedgers! VAR can be astromonical because the divisor is close to zero..packet drop errors only.
Too simple for the unRegulators?..too Big to be Challenged..the Joseph Jett effect at Kidder Peabody - 1994
What is the sound of a whistle-blower in a vacuum?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:37
#18592
Yeah don't forget Baikal and Turquoise ;)
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:39
#18594
As good as I have read from you especially, as a novice at best, I understood it.
Pete
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:40
#18598
Dennis Kneale,
If your station ACTUALLY did research instead of waiting for reuters and the AP to put stories out you can parrot...you may actually get a viewing audience. The CNBC 'Money Honeys' are spectacular but basicly lip syncing a story put out by Reuters or the AP is NOT analysis. Dennis, you are old enough to remember Milli Vanilli...try to learn from their mistakes!
-Silence Dogood
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:42
#18599
Kick ass letter, Tyler - these guys are picking a fight with the masters in obfuscation - plus they have half of Congress at their beck and call. Schumer and his crew will need all the help they can get to make a case that is 'politically too inconvenient' to pass up. Not sure if this ever goes anywhere - whenever we think the heat is on those cats don't seem to break a sweat.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:41
#18603
There is ample history in Washington of seemingly friendly persons who, in fact end up end up acting as as an agent provocateur. I hope that Senator Schumer is in fact looking to assist in reclaiming the prospect of free markets from those that now hold them hostage. However, of all the folks in the US Senate that could address this issue Schumer is one I would have lingering questions about. Tread cautiously.
Great letter!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:01
#18625
I will never forget (or forgive) Chuck Schumer for his disgusting strutting in support of the federal assassins during the Waco Hearings. Go watch Waco: Rules of Engagement if you want to see what I mean. I watched every day of those hearings back when they happened, and there were moments where that man made my blood boil. A disgusting power-tripper he is. He's also been said for years to be in the pocket of banks. Use him as a vehicle of convenience, but remember: Your Mileage May Vary.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:46
#18614
Tyler,
This area is way off by bailiwick. But, it is manifesting, that you will have to hand-hold and walk every step for not just readers like me, but for the regulators and most everybody else.
Your patience will be tested, because you sir, I emphasize again, will have much hand-holding to do and connect every single dot.
Thanks for your hard work.
Honest Abe
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:48
#18616
"it appears the original link to the paper was taken down within 10 minutes of this post."
priceless, hm, someone does pay attention :) . if only they knew what ZH does or does not know :) , keep them guessing!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:15
#18644
Dymanically updated link available at http://gset.gs.com/gset/education/thought.asp
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:48
#18707
p.s. I mean GS and not the Senator Schumer.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 15:54
#18621
dear Tyler, i don't know if u did it, but when you talk about Nyse Program Trading you should also, according to me, take a look to the second table, " trading by executing market".
it gives a deeper view on the total volume traded by those firms...
sincerely
mattacchiuz
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:05
#18630
Yet another banner day for the Sigma X, Dark Pools, Prop Desk A, and Prop Desk B at Goldman Sachs.
The Fed and Treasury Department successfully sold another huge chunk of Treasuries today, thanks to Goldman's dunking of all commodities, which promptly put a bid up on the U.S. Dollar and U.S. Treasuries.
Note the dollar rally today. The Chinese Plutocrats must be giddy. Geithner and Goldman now under their thumbs, China is now able to dictate currency market direction.
Of course, they obliged by lapping up today's Treasury issues like a dog lapping up barbeque sauce off of Tony Roma's ribs thrown out onto the sidewalk.
The Chinese are like dogs. Give them enough, and they will eat and eat and eat without stopping. Like the Chinese adding more and more and more to their vast horde of U.S. Treasuries.
Looks as if the same crowd of little old ladies who shucked off their canes and walkers to buy oils, golds, fertilizers, infrastructure, emerging markets, etc. turned tail and immediately stampeded out of the casino after Geithner started a small grease fire in order to spook the herd back into the "safety assets".
That's what happens when billions and billions under management is now daytraded on a 5-minute chart, and long positions are immedately converted into short positions within hours.
Meanwhile, while inflation assets were being dumped, looks as if everyone decided that the next best place to hide was in bombed out, government-owned, junk banks like Citigroup and near bankrupt retailers like Pier 1. It really doesn't matter what the firm's prospects are, if the market is having a bad day, money will pile into anything and everything that is going up.
And don't forget Cramer's call for $20 oil. All the car manufacturers and airlines were up big today. I expect a lot of funds will be piling on those stocks tomorrow.
Everyone will be staring bug-eyed at the screens tonight, scanning and checking out what to buy tomorrow now that 100% of their commodity positions have been offloaded.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:13
#18642
You certainly have a way with words Robot.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:25
#18655
its more the dots he connects under the guise
you should see the desperate longs of those junk banks cheer today as if they still could score the winning touchdowns of years gone by
in time they will look back and feel it was just a mindless summer dream
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:20
#18650
I also think there is not enough capital on earth to support support if you know what I mean. So, this is hot potato capital funding for short term needs. When bond purchases are needed, they drop the market and people rush into purchasing treasuries. When it looks like China might acquire a number of US companies, they influence the masses and robots to bid up equity prices by encouraging the risk trade. It doesn't matter that the value of the bonds might drop in between, as long as they prop it up again before the next bond offering. I think this might be a pattern that we could exploit for trading?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:35
#18661
With the added plus for China that pressure on commodities pressures iron ore pricing, the Aussie and redirects some of the froth from their lending activities...
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:59
#18676
What a treat....a great post by TD and excellent, excellent memorandum to Sen. Schumer and the Robo daily summary.
Alas, I stimulated the economy today by buying a Compaq 15.7 laptop at WalMart (they were $298, a genuine steal in my opinion). Naturally, will purchase spy during the a.m. low tomorrow and sell at 3:59 p.m. to pay for said computer.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:21
#18739
Hey, Wndy...been a long time. It's still all about "words". I'm blown away how quick the crooks are back to chasing trash can lids down the street. Jimmy Jones could wave a bag of dog poo over his head and the Cramericans would line up to buy it and four months ago he was curled up in a fetal position.
This is gonna end badly...again.....
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:08
#18632
Excellent work...but definitely above his pay grade!!!!!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:08
#18633
Congratulations!!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:11
#18635
e^x= (EUR/DXY)-[DXY/(JPY?EUR)]+?UST?^3/(3*OIL!)+?,-?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:11
#18636
Trusting Chuck Schumer is a mistake. He is out in front because GS knows this is going to be trouble and as the senior Senator from NY, he is Goldman's man.
Nevertheless, nice work. Hammer away!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:17
#18648
Exactly.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:10
#18684
I've commented about the senior Senator from NY custom previously and I certainly cannot disagree with your thought. As has been said before, politicos like Schumer will absolutely eat their own if the momentum shifts enough and Schumer will start chomping like a homeless guy on a tenderloin at Sparks. The key is for the momentum to keep moving and from where I sit, I cannot read any liberal blog/Obama worshipping/Democratic junkie site that doesn't bash the shit out of wall st., banks, with GS being the poster boy. Hell, one little proof of the fact that the light is too bright on GS is the price they paid for TARP warrants vs. their peer group. They have massive PR problems, they know it, and are very concerned.
I meant to add from a NY perspective, there are lots of NYers who detest Wall St. and understand the havoc that they have caused. Those folks are Schumer's ticket and he knows it.
Keep fightin' TD.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:10
#18902
Time for some folks to begin linking the real estate market in NYC to GS and like firms as the summer turns to fall turns to winter. A steady stream of articles remining folks that the reason the just lost another 8-10% in the just passed quarter on their property is because of THEM...
Your are quite correct that on all of the pro administration sites there is an ever growing chorus of GS bashing and this needs to be fostered, supported and enhanced.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 03:07
#19059
not financially by any means, but stirring a bit of spice into the stew stock waiting for GS & friends
http://anastomoticsynchrony.blogspot.com/2009/07/diminished-fifth-for-diminished-thieves.html
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 03:09
#19060
not financially by any means, but stirring a bit of spice into the stew stock waiting for GS & friends
http://anastomoticsynchrony.blogspot.com/2009/07/diminished-fifth-for-diminished-thieves.html
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 03:14
#19061
not financially by any means, but stirring a bit of spice into the stew stock waiting for GS & friends
http://anastomoticsynchrony.blogspot.com/2009/07/diminished-fifth-for-diminished-thieves.html
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:04
#18722
An astute comment.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:58
#18761
my thoughts exactly. why not copy all relevant regulators?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:15
#18645
Sigma X is brought to you by the old Speer, Leeds, and Kellog--bought by GS.
They were at the forefront of the frontrunning investigations right before Walt Kellog sold the firm to GS for 5 Bil.
Their offices at 30 Hudson, Jersy City, NJ have the same security as a US Gov't building.
They ahve been humping world investors for sixty years.
Why stop now?
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 01:45
#19051
They should stop for this dude
http://www.shootermovie.com/main.html
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:21
#18651
BlackRock, Goldman Fund Contracts Pulled by U.S. Pension Agency
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6ARZJ2FuT0o
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:41
#18794
Brilliant find, thanks. Sweet to see "the market" itself starting to do some of the work. More of this + ZH + a whistleblower or two = just maybe a snowball's chance in hell after all. This GS spokeswoman Andrea Raphael was a busy lady today, also crafting the corporate line for the GS compliance attorney arrest in buzzsaw99's post 18693 below. Come on Andrea, punch the clock for the day and go off-line and share some of the real deal with TD. Please?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:24
#18652
Excellent letter. Well articulated. Senator Schumer's initial request had the appearances of perhaps eliminating competition for Goldman Sachs rather than fixing the problem of front running orders. I sincerely hope this catches fire with the MSM and others across the spectrum.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:24
#18653
The hilarity of TD's post script is timeless........P.S. FU Goldman you can view it on ZH....lol
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:26
#18654
From acrossthecurve:
Goldman Sachs ( purportedly a well connected and well informedand powerful bond firm domiciled in lower Manhattan) put out a piece today in which the firm called for higher bond yields.
They suggest that relative to other asset classes that the risk premium built into the Treasury market is too high and should decline to reflect less risky conditions. Here is a relevant excerpt:
* UST yields have room to rise. Financial conditions have eased
> significantly over the last month.
> * Risk premium on the UST curve is high relative to other asset
> classes. As a result, flatteners may be attractive.
> * The strong participation in June’s front-end auctions is likely not
> the start of a new trend.
I would humbly suggest that it is possible that the Treasury market has the correct story and the other markets are wrong.
Talk about sniveling duplicitous drivel! Waa! We need bigger yields for the bonds that are getting stuffed down our gullets. Waa! Somebody buy these equities!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:38
#18663
I support your decision to remain anonymous TD - you're going after the jugular of some very powerful interests, and the information you provide is incredibly damning. I third the commenter above who opined that this is the most important and relevant financial commentary on the web. Keep up the good work. If nothing else, you've put the financial world on notice. All the street boys know your name.
P.S. - I was at Bellagio last month for a friend's bachelor party. 4 am rolls around, and I'm sitting at a blackjack table with some loud mouth 25 year old prick from Georgetown who won't stop running his mouth about how amazing he is, and that he works for GS. I started asking some pretty pointed questions about GS's SLP trading and associated BS (he supposedly worked on the equity deriv. desk) and he goes "You're ridiculous, you just believe everything you read on Zero Hedge!"
I got a kick out of that one :) I wonder how many internal memos have been circulated about ZH...
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:13
#18688
Great story!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:44
#18878
now THAT is fucking funny. thanks for sharing this!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:12
#18904
WhoT!
The deep strike is hurting em.... Hit them harder and harder...
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:43
#18664
Everybody in here needs to cut and paste this article and send it to your local politician and DEMAND that they ACT ON YOUR BEHALF!!!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:59
#18943
Hear-Hear!!!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:47
#18668
Richard Nixon, President of the United States, was brought down by two reporters, Woodward and Bernstein.
I hope to live to see the day that Goldman Sachs, the most prestigious investment bank (or bank holding company nowadays with a lot of exemptions), is brought down by a dedicated blogger.
George Orwell
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:17
#18690
18668....a great reminder, particularly for those who might be too young to have lived through this.
I would add that the crucial matter was the fortitude and patriotism of 'deep throat' and the risks he took to assist W&B. Deep throat is a hero in my book.
For those potential 'deep throats' out there, just go to your public library, get a gmail account, and send what you know to tips at zerohedge dot com
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:19
#18913
Better yet, buy a netbook with cash and use it in a public, or better yet an open "private" WiFi zone... Library usage is more easily traceable... Keep it generic and use it only for the task at hand. Protect yourself from those that would destroy free markets and you for the commission NYSE will give them for transacting a share on their exchange.
I remember delivering the Seattle PI during those days and the should never be forgotten.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:21
#18915
It has been a while since I've been to a library. Don't you need to scan your library card before surfing the net?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:05
#18950
You took the words out of my mouth--i was going to say that Tyler and Marla are our modern day Woodward and Bernstein!!! This is not just a political and moral crime, it is exponentially larger in that it also involves a dollar value bigger than any crime (other than the big bank bailout heist that is in process )
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:47
#18669
More sensationalistic BS for the masses to eat up and feel better about themselves for participating in a witch hunt. Why single out Goldman? Every bank has internal pools of liquidity which can provide a better execution and reduced execution costs for ALL participants. Why assume that the prop desks are the only ones benefiting? Besides, order flow from Mom and Pop doesn't end up in these dark pools, it's institutional order flow. Are you now sticking up for the Hedge Funds? How noble. Those that participate are well aware of the risks/rewards of trading in a dark pool and they accept them. Why can't you? Keep in mind they are not forced to participate in such a manner, they elect to. That's because they see a benefit. If you want to make a case against market fragmentation, then fine, that's a different story. But open your eyes and remove yourself from the GS lynch mob.
P.S. I am not, nor have I ever been, an employee of GS.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 16:53
#18674
order flow from Mom and Pop doesn't end up in these dark pools, it's institutional order flow.
So... dark pools remove liquidity from where Mom and Pop have access to it, and they segment it off to where only institutional players have access (for a premium). You're right. Nothing to see here.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:30
#18697
Like I said, if you want to talk about market fragmentation then that's a different story. Your concern about access to liquidity is the same as telephone brokers trading in the "upstairs" market and that has been a standard practice for god knows how long. Two people can't trade with each other without first alerting the public?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:02
#18677
Maaaan, you may not work for GS but you have the same elitist prick mentality. JPM?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:23
#18742
Wow. Thanks for offering a point of view. Its easier to sling insults than to counter with a rational thought. Tell me where I am wrong instead of resorting to name calling. What is this the 3rd grade? (Same goes for the post below.)
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 08:29
#19150
Here's where you are wrong, tough guy. Labeling the people of America as 'lynch mob' masses spoon fed garbage as they are cleary too unintelligent to understand the issues at large. Your pretentious attitude lies at the heart of all that is wrong with the financial industry writ large. Wall Street did more to destroy this country than Al Qaeda. Think the gubment sent me to fight the wrong enemy. . .
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:36
#18700
Nice disclaimer FUCK OFF....
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:10
#18728
So testy elitest Anon guy!? This is about much more than just dark pools, dim wit. "Everybody needs a bosom for a pillow," Fatboy Slim advises. Just take it easy man, and see if maybe you can't get lucky tonight. Perhaps that'll help with your nasty little case of myopic pathologies, or at least enlarge and clarify your sorry-ass perspective.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:51
#18824
+ 100 million
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:57
#18888
You struggle so hard to sound both cool and wise. Less is more if you want to influence this crowd. It's apparent who has horses in the races.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:22
#18918
The fact is that this track will let anyone race including you on the same terms. Can you say the same for the track you are advocating?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:13
#18733
You obviously are also short a moral compass...either that or logic. Take your pick.....
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:31
#18747
I am part of no lynch mob, and you are grotesque.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:20
#18785
Is this Anon "Tell me where I am wrong instead of resorting to name calling" the same one who also posted "FUCK OFF"? Register and log-in please so we can avoid this identity confusion. Until then, let's go bowling.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:07
#18844
No not me. That was someone else's advice for myself which is why I said "same goes for the post below."
I do apologize for not logging in, I forgot and then it was too late.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:46
#18880
Like the institutions that manage Mom and Pop's 401(k) funds? Yeah, really, I mean, who cares?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:58
#18891
Yes, you took the words out of my mouth..exactly
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:34
#18984
Few, if any 401k funds are executing through prime broker arrangements and almost certainly are not participating in the banks' dark pools, rather they execute themselves or trade tranches of their portfolios with portfolio trading desks.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:18
#18965
Your leave off significant details and glibly dismisses this discussion without any reason other than that you don't agree with it and you back your objection singularly with a statement that you are"NOT a GS employee", and throwing this entire discussion into the category of "GS lynch mob"--how unfortunate for you to be so blind-sighted as to what is right and wrong.
Market fragmentation is also an issue, and not necessarily separate.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:50
#18997
It is all part of the same set of forces that have contributed to the current unstable structure of the equity marketplace. The very systems that were sold to everyone as the ultimate means to provide investors with natural liquidity and reward displayed interest have proven to be an abject failure. Instead, average lot size is now smaller than many years ago. Liquidity providers are incented to game a rebate structure for their own reward at the expense of their clients. Pure buyers and sellers are now subject to predatory bots generating trades and quotes in computer time . And to top it all off, for a nominal fee, exchanges are offering preferential data streams . How is dark liquidity better when it is not represented in the NBBO ? If interest can no longer be displayed, how can you argue that internal pools provide better execution ? Goldman Sachs is a hedge fund a bank and an SLP . How can you defend them when it is obvious that they position themselves as an agent of change at everyone's expense ? Market fragmentation has been created to benefit certain interests at the expense of the greater good of the marketplace.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:02
#18678
Madoff cannot believe his fraud lasted so long
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE56S0E120090729
This is what happens when fradulent activity is not fixed soon and the tentacles spread further into the system
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:25
#18693
[GS lawyer accused of being a perv.]:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601127&sid=aQsnlTfp60Kg
Degenerates all.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:28
#18696
fail
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:52
#18710
Actually that is entrapment. The police setup a dummy account and sent her into chatrooms to bring in men.
What charge exactly do they hope to bring? Sex chatting with a police officer posing as a minor?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:01
#18718
It looks bad for GS, that's all I care about.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:06
#18725
buzz...while respecting your free speech rights.....
1. it is an allegation and means nothing until final adjudication.
2. the accused's employer has nothing to do with this.
3. this type of "goldman" or "wall street" story has so very little to nothing to do with the issues being discussed on this and other financial blogs. If TD ran this as a headline story, I suspect he would be laughed at and taken much less seriously. I would join that crowd in a moment and at this juncuture I have a very high degree of respect and esteem for TD.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:37
#18749
Disagree, (though totally agree it'd be silly for ZH themselves to post as they doubtfully would). Anyway, anyhow ("legally") to get a peek behind the the GS curtain is the gainer here, entirely seperate from this GS VP dude being an apparent spineless tird. Before this article you knew this?
Goldman’s global compliance unit has more than 500 professionals including lawyers, accountants, financial analysts, information technology specialists, regulators, management consultants, sales professionals and traders, according to Goldman’s Web site.
(BTW, what the hell are "sales professionals and traders" doing in a compliance department?)
Interesting also how an attorney with the title of "vice president in the compliance division" and three years tenure would not have any "legal duties" according to GS spokeswoman. All simply adds to our growing pool of reconnaissance, thanks for posting Buzz.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:56
#18760
I might expect this from a trader, but someone in the compliance department? What is GS coming to?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:48
#18882
"(BTW, what the hell are "sales professionals and traders" doing in a compliance department?)"
Selling compliance?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:51
#18933
Cut me some slack deadhead, it's a bloomberg link.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:36
#18701
No surprise the Nasdaq is endorsing this, they don't want to lose liquidity to alternative venues posting better prices than them.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:59
#18892
Why would they want that?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:41
#18703
You are trusting the wrong guy ... and if you do not no why ... ask yourself ... who is Chuck Schumer ... i have a bad feeling about him leading the crusades against GS and HFT ... a real bad feeling ..
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:54
#18712
Since you already know i can be a bit bitchy, i will say this (with respect).
Nobody trusts a politician and if they do, they are an idiot. Does Tyler seem like an idiot to you?
Sending a letter to Schumer, stating your concerns, backed up with facts is a prudent thing to do. You cannot equate prudence with trust.
Tyler is but one voice (loud as it is). He is just making sure it is heard. As far as i can tell he is not getting into bed with anyone, let alone Chuck Schumer.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:10
#18729
well said lizzy. as one who has enjoyed your comments for quite some time, I have found you to be direct, honest, and forthright. Certainly not bitchy.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:14
#18734
she is not bitchy, she is just a Grammar Nazi ( just kidding Lizzy )
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:12
#18732
Lizzy, baby, you misunderstood me .. i was not replying that Tyler is getting into bed with anyone, nor did i write my comment having Tyler's letter to Schumer in mind. I was generally expressing my doubt about Schumers intentions, not Tyler's, nor was the main point of my comment to say that Tyler is so naive that he would trust Schumer or any other politician ( RP excluded ). And the comment was more of a thinking out loud than a valid analysis. And i surely do not imply that there are people here who are stupid to believe a politician ( again RP excluded ) ... So, baby, don't go hard on me, i had the best intentions, although to be fair, poorly expressed ..
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:44
#18754
Bless the wisdom of feminine reason and perspective. Bring it on Lucy/lizzy, you make this dance floor happen!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:28
#18922
Yes indeed Lizzy.
Besides now that TD has done the deal Chuck Schumer, the esteemed gentleman from New York that he is will be unable to say that he had never been provided with credible, factual information on the subject. TD waited until Schumer stepped out front first. Exquisite.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:36
#18926
Chuck Schumer is just shooting at random targets -- he is definitely NOT the go to guy on these matters. Check out Wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Schumer
Excerpt: "On April 6, 2005 Alan Greenspan testified to Congress about the enormous portfolio of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Schumer responded to the testimony "I see an analogy to Social Security," Mr. Schumer said. "Social Security has a problem and there are ideologues who want to undo it. Fannie and Freddie have problems, and there are ideologues who want to undo them. But there are ways to fix the problems short of what's been proposed. When the sink is broken, you don't want to tear down the house."
Without identifying anyone in particular, Schumer also suggested that some people who have advanced tougher regulation of the two housing finance companies were really pushing a broader agenda to eliminate the companies and their mission of providing affordable housing. He proposed that the OFHEO raise Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's conforming loan ("affordable") limits from $417,000 to $625,000, thereby allowing these GSEs to back mortgages on homes prices up to $780,000 with a 20 percent down payment.
Following the meltdown of the subprime mortgage industry in March 2007, Schumer proposed a federal government bailout of subprime borrowers in order to save homeowners from losing their residences.
Schumer's top nine campaign contributors are all financial institutions who have contributed over $2.5 million to the senator."
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:42
#18704
Rally!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:49
#18708
For all of you that use REDI(Goldman's electronic order entry system) - STOP IMMEDIATELY!!! Change to a broker neutral platform.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:04
#18838
When GS bought SLK in 2000, I ran a Nasdaq server farm using TradeCast.
I saw GS running the REDI book and could not understand why anyone would have used it.
knowing that..looks like some took longer to get it.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 17:58
#18714
Sending a letter to the sen really is a good idea. Ever play chess? Sen you are now in check what will you do?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:02
#18719
So when will the class-action lawsuit against Goldman Sachs by investors and investment firms be initiated?
Goldman has stolen billions of dollars through this flash trading fraud - stolen from investors.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:03
#18720
So when will the class-action lawsuit against Goldman Sachs by investors and investment firms be initiated?
Goldman has stolen billions of dollars through this flash trading fraud - stolen from investors.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:08
#18727
http://www.glancylaw.com/pdf/GS.pdf
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:12
#18731
Kudos sir.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:17
#18736
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=a2X3hNaWcbeg
Bashing Goldman Sachs Is Simply a Game for Fools: Michael Lewis
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:04
#18772
"And nothing that happens at Goldman Sachs -- nothing that Goldman Sachs thinks, nothing that Goldman Sachs feels, nothing that Goldman Sachs does --ever happens by accident."
May they go on believing exactly this, and to the sound of cannons! Indeed, Compensated Psychopath's are so dimented that they're absolutely incapable of believing anything else. Lewis, you pompous ass, thank you for so gracefully cementing the real issue at GS that is (note, not "will be") their demise. It's just a matter of time, Dude...
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:34
#18807
Michael Lewis? Is this the same guy who wrote that hit piece on Iceland in Esquire a couple of months ago? Apparently being Icelandic and having a degree in financial engineering makes you incompetent, but when you're Michael Lewis and your Uncle Hyman has an "in" at Salomon Brothers, suddenly you're exactly where you need to be.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:12
#18957
I think some of you may be missing the slight sarcasm in the Bloomberg article/op-ed. Read through, it's worth it, funny as hell.
A longer quote from the piece should clarify:
"For starters, the vampire squid doesn’t feed on human flesh. Ergo, no vampire squid would ever wrap itself around the face of humanity, except by accident. And nothing that happens at Goldman Sachs -- nothing that Goldman Sachs thinks, nothing that Goldman Sachs feels, nothing that Goldman Sachs does --ever happens by accident."
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:18
#18737
CNBC has the be hurting they are running ads for Female Pattern Baldness during Kudlow's show tonight.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:31
#18748
Shit man...at least they' ve got their target audience nailed...since women with balding problems are the only ones still watching their bullshit programming.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:19
#18738
No doubt, those papers are going to be well beyond the scope of comprehension by Schumer or anyone on his staff.
No different than trying to explain moving averages, RSI, stochastics, etc. to Rodney King or Mike Tyson.
Schumer will simply hand it off to "experts" to handle, more than likely that will be somebody at Goldman Sachs.
LOL....
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:37
#18751
LOL...good one....btw like your avatar...is that chick on CNBC?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:12
#18779
Yeah on CNBC, with female pattern baldness.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 23:17
#19011
As long as she is going bald in the right spots....fuckin' awesome!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:24
#18743
although Schumer made be helping in this little fiasco what about the others which gave birth to this problem and the many other problems Wall Street had perpetrated on the American population
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:43
#18755
I hope this goes beyond sending a sternly worded letter to GS given the track record of the SEC enforcing rules that are on the books.
I will say this. Two weeks ago I was talking to my know it all brother in law day trading junky tying to explain to him how high frequency has been corrupting the markets. He told me to take off the tin foil hat. Two weeks later it's all over the news thanks in part to ZH and he's sending me linked articles about HFT ( so much for the foil ).
Hopefully this gets legs.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 18:59
#18768
I have two words for all of you: Eliot Spitzer. You know he may be the only one who could get the job done, and maybe, even from the outside looking in.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:40
#18815
18768...I agree that Spitzer could make an enormous dent in the Wall St. crap.
I would be interested to see the opinions of ZH readers as to who they think would make a great SEC commissioner.
Maybe Marla will refresh the gs/sergey poll and throw one up there with some names that come up going forward.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:48
#18881
If Elliot gets on the FED..see the Macroeconomics Forum at ZH on Central Banks---> GlobalResearch piece...major league fur will fly.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:42
#18812
Wondering why there is all this ruckus about how the 5-year went badly.
You gotta be kidding.
We are trilllions in the hole, and anytime we want to charge billions on our credit card, we can pull it off at less than 2% for 2-years and less than 3.75% for 5 years?
What if your girlfriend was a sales associate at Nordstrom's making $40k a year, and she had $250,000 in credit card debt. And she decides she wants a boob job costing $5,000. And she grumbles because the interest rate on her boob job loan goes from 3% to 4%?
I mean really, what if the 7-years go off at 5%? So what? Those are still 40-year low interest rates.
Bottom line is that the globe is still enamoured with our AAA-rated confetti, and at the first whiff of trouble, they will dump any and all "risky" investments and pile into U.S. Debt.
And those Chinese....
You would think they would be offloading a little here, a little there. Nope. Our debt is still "gilt-edged" to them.
Until the 10-year yield gets north of 8%, there is not going to be any funding problems for the U.S.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:59
#18893
Interesting thoughts on rates. If you look at the ten-year historic rates, 4.5% seems about average for the period before the crisis. I have been thinging that 4% is a kind of "watch me keep rates under 4%" for Bernanke, as his way of adding to the evidence that deflation is the worry and not inflation / debasement.
The bitching will rise IMO if we get to 4.5%, as the markets I think will perceive this as Bernanke's having lost control of the long end, i.e.: rates back to pre-crisis levels, and crisis measures still needed to keep the system going.
What do you base your 8% on?
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:14
#19027
The wiley Chinese are setting up bilateral credit swaps all across the earf. See Brazil, Russia, Malaysia, Hong Kong, etc.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 15:13
#19822
Robot Trader: You are spot on in so many ways. Take for instance the Hot Mess I met at the Nordstrom MAC makeup counter recently. This perfectly painted 19yr old blond was named CJ but didnot know of her namesake on Baywatch CJ Parker, better known as Pamela. But I digress.
The Fed can keep pillaging Treasury Auctions with monetized debt to keep rates under control. How does this all unwind? All kinds of debt end up on the Fed balance sheet. 1.25Trillion MBS, GM,CITI, credit cards, student loans, auto loans, soon CommercialMBS....etc. Inflation and money velocity are both stymied when the Fed creates money to backstop debt. These debts could sit forever, rolling over year after year. We don't need the Chinese at all. Just monetize bad debts on Fed balance sheet.
My state school Econ minor sees no end to the game. Do you? What even drives/raises rates to 8%? A Fed organized defense of the dollar at 78.3 and all is well.
Back to Nordies to check on CJ:)
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 19:53
#18826
Did anyone else catch this today during the CFTC Hearing on Energy Position Limits and Hedge Exemptions? CFTC Chairman Gary Gensler asked about co-location of servers to JPM and GS reps who were on the panel, Blythe Masters of JPM and Don Casturo of GS. Gensler said that it had been in the press a lot yesterday --- and the question was asked by Commissioner Michael Dunn yesterday to panelists. Here is the link to today’s panel and co-location question can be found at approximately 2:06:42. Blythe Masters said she did not even know that it occurred while Don Casturo had “no comment.”
http://www.capitolconnection.gmu.edu/cftc/072909/wmarchive.htm
Sorry I did not listen to yesterday’s testimony yet, but here is the link to find the exact question as posed by Commissioner Dunn.
http://www.capitolconnection.gmu.edu/cftc/072809/wmarchive.htm
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:02
#18894
great link, thanky!
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:14
#19028
nice find
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:01
#18834
You did it and it is just too big to ignore! Thank you for all of us!
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:04
#18840
It is interesting how both the chairmen of CME and ICE both warned against the risk of futures trades being forced into the "dark , unregulated world of off-exchange trading. " If "dark and unregulated off-exchange trading "is problematic for the futures industry, why has it been forced upon the equities markets ?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:17
#18855
I cleared with SLK years ago at the NYFE.
Then we called this "trading in the booth" which meant the customer"s order never made it to the pit.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:19
#18856
Tyler, isn't Schumer the guy who's oft-referred to as a "socialist"?
Perhaps a retraction or two . . . scratch that (just kidding), a nice, pro-collective-good perspective piece wouldn't hurt about now.
Just thinking.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:22
#18916
No, he was known as "the steamroller"
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 20:57
#18887
I think the conspiracy folks are starting to make some sense, considering the seasonal Flu has a mortality rate in the US of +- 37,000/yr and to date maybe 84 people in the US have succumbed to A-H1N1 (swine flu):
Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/07/28/military.swine.flu/
When PandemicFlu was all the buzz 3 or 4 years ago with the super lethal AvianFlu (H5N1), this military stuff was not part of the drill -
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:26
#18976
Now you're thinking. This is a huge issue and one that keeps me up at night. Regional military planning?, looks like Swine Flu is a cover for the bank holiday that is planned in the Fall as we are collapsing economically. A state of marshall law could be declared at any point, provided there was a believable excuse.
History is filled with conspiracies, every war, empire expansion, and empire collapse started with a plan. "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."
Franklin D. Roosevelt
The people that talk about tin foil hats or conspiracy "theorists" are in denial, part of the conspirators, or woefully ignorant. Only those in on the plan know every detail, and it's not like they publish their plans - therefore any conspiracy theorist is merely someone looking from the outside in and connecting the dots.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:16
#19030
http://birdflu666.wordpress.com
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:04
#18896
Bravo! I is wearing your hat in Toronto right now.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:09
#18900
Also I think Spitzer can be trusted cuz he admits he likes whores. The other folks are lying criminals. Spitzer just likes whores. Big fuggin deal. So did Jeebus.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:06
#18897
Sigma X and AES are responsible for > 60% of dark pool crosses because they are great places to do business....no i don't work for Goldman and believe "flash orders"( those flashed for milliseconds at various spreads from the NBBO and used by the likes of vast HF's on long island to profile liquidity and trade ahead) should be banned.
GS offers a broker neutral routing choice through REDI that allows clients of GS to avoid trading with Goldman in any capacity if they so choose.
If you choose to route to GS and have not opted out then you will trade with all participants including GS who route to and through Sigma.
Goldman is likely profiled customers and either chooses to add liquidity and take the other side of a trade or not. As long as this profiling only adds liquidity on the opposite side of the market to the client and does not have the ability to front run or go the same way as the customer order then this practice is called "market making" and is wholly reasonable and LEGITIMATE and is clearly stated in the customer agreement...(probably not clear enough for those who own 0% down, 0% apr 5 year teaser mortgages which judging by the comments above are > 1/2 of you angry old men). If the program is taking liquidity and running ahead of a customer limit then this is clearly ILLEGITIMATE...there is nothing here to suggest such abuse.
It is clear that there are LEGITIMATE and ILLEGITIMATE practices at work across all electronic markets right now that could easily be investigated and rectified.
Agree that market fragmentation and the "various dark pool" models need some work but Joe Public on average is getting "very good" if not "best execution".
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:26
#18919
Dewd, who are you kidding? Goldman's "clients" work at some pension fund or whatever, they get taken with their Goldman rep to a steak dinner and box seats at a yankees game and they don't know a sigma from a photon.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 23:05
#19007
Very good post, and might I add that dark pool volume is only about 5% of daily volume figures.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:11
#18903
the latest from Pettis:
Squeezing out the exporters
http://mpettis.com/2009/07/squeezing-out-the-exporters/
"I am working on a fairly long entry that I will post this weekend about why a trade rebalancing and a consumption/savings rebalancing will take place in both China and the US whether or not we want it. ..."
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:19
#18911
July 30 (Bloomberg) -- Japanese manufacturers increased production for a fourth month in June, capping the fastest quarterly output expansion in more than half a century and helping the economy rebound from its deepest postwar recession.
Production rose 2.4 percent from May, the Trade Ministry said today in Tokyo. Output gained 8.3 percent last quarter from the first three months of 2009, the most since 1953, and companies surveyed planned increases in July and August as well.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=aRYMFrCEOMCo&refer=economies
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:27
#18921
yes, but it clearly states that the rise is because all the stimulus packages that were passed, not because demand picked up ... so its only temporarily ... basic line is ... more fucking green shoots based on some weird sense of reality ...
" Leaner inventories and more than $2 trillion in spending by governments worldwide stabilized global demand, supporting exporters including Mitsubishi Motors Corp. Even with the month-on-month gains, companies are churning out 23.4 percent fewer goods than last year, putting pressure on them to forgo investment and cut workers to maintain profits. "
.....
" Some 4 trillion yuan ($585 billion) in spending by China’s government has buoyed sales of Japanese cars, building equipment and steel. PresidentBarack Obama’s “cash-for- clunkers” program is also helping prop up the U.S. auto market, while Japan’s own stimulus measures have boosted purchases of environment-friendly cars like Toyota Motor Corp.’s Prius."
...
“The recovery is only as robust as the stimulus packages,” said Barclays’ Morita."
i state my case
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:48
#18994
Apocalypse now-
I think you rest your case. Well done.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:22
#18917
WHEN will we see the CLASS ACTION Lawsuits against the Goldman THEFT???
They will be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 21:59
#18944
Congress waking up???
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124890898142691729.html
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:06
#18953
I use Goldmans's Redi Plus execution platform and noticed blatant front running of my orders. This occurs after the close and before the open. I do not know if this is GS doing this but the speed this occurs arose suspicion. This is an example of what happens: Stock ABCD has no market after hours. I enter a bid to buy ABCD at $40.00 per share and there is all of a sudden and instantly an order to buy ABCD at $40.01 in front of my order. If I update my order to buy $40.02 the front runner instantly (less than a second) is now bidding $40.03. This program is set to get in front of your order up to the closing price of ABCD stock. However, I have found a wonderful use for these programs because, for example if ever need a fill, I can actually provoke the program, by continuing to get in front of him until he is bid up to the previous close where I can then whack his bid and get my fill. Again, I'm not sure this is a GS program. I have a friend that clears through another large broker that is not GS and he gets the front runner program with his platform too. Also the orders are being sent to Arca and Inet.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:35
#18985
this is likely another participant in sigma who is also a goldman client...u can't front run customers in such a blatant fashion else rules aside you will run out of customers.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:42
#18990
I don't know if I would call that front running as much as it is price improvement. Glad to see that you gamed the computer. It could be GS, but anybody, anywhere with a computer and even the tiniest bit of computing skills could program something that behaves that way.
What happens if you cancel your bid? Does the bid in front of you disappear/move lower/stay the same?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:54
#19002
Happened to me as well, very fishy. This problem is compounded when on 15 minute delayed quotes - a gray area. I think the example is actually part of the bid-rigging program that sends multiple bids out that are canceled within sub-seconds to find out your highest price.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 23:16
#19010
This is how misinformed this debate has gotten. That's not front-running. That's called improving the bid.
Let's say you want to buy a house. The seller wants to sell for $400,000. You think you can do a little bit better, so you tell them you'll play $350,000. Then someone else makes the seller an offer to buy for $360,000. Are you trying to tell me that you can't submit a bit for $370,000? Or tell the broker you changed your mind and will pay $400,000?
That's not front-running. That's a negotation involving multiple parties -- an auction. Like you see on TV in the movies. "6 bid, 6 bid, 6 bid, do I hear 7?" The stock market is a double auction.
If you publically submit a buy order to a marketplace, people are allowed to pay a higher price. Front-running is when someone with a fiduciary duty to you (some such as your broker trying to fill your on agency basis) intentionally steps in front of your order because they have non-public information. The computer who topped your $40.00 bid is no more guilty of front-running than when you topped its $40.01 bid.
The irony of this debate is that these flash/bolt/elp orders served a useful and legitimate purpose in the market. Many stocks in the market are very tightly bid and offered. The market might be a penny wide all day, maybe $10.00 bid at $10.01 offered. There might be 50,000 or 100,000 shares on more on the bid and the offer.
So if you put in an order to buy on bid, you might have to wait quite a while to get filled. This is what has driven a lot of volume to the dark pools. The SEC prohibits sub-penny pricing, but the wide range of fee agreements possible through running a dark pool (where you can charge your investors completely different fees, unlike a public market which publishes them) effectively allows dark pools to price sub-penny. This also facilitates a lot of payment-for-order flow (Madoff) arrangements.
If you're a retail investor, and you join the $10.00 bid for 100 shares after there's already 100,000 shares in front of you, likely the only way you get filled is if the market drops to $9.99 bid at $10.00 offered. And if the market is semi-random, and goes the other way ($10.01 bid at $10.02 offered), then the $10.01 bid could get filled in really quick by smart computer programs. Quicker than your eye can see and your finger can quick with a mouse. Repeat a couple times and the market could easily be $10.03 and $10.04
So it makes a lot of sense to just buy the $10.01's right away. But if there's a lot of size offered, why not get the best fee you can? If send your order to NYSE, ARCA, NASDAQ, or BATS, then you get charged anywhere from $0.0018 to $0.0030 per share. If you fill the Direct Edge ELP, you $0.0010 per share. If you send a flash order to NASDAQ BX, you execute for free. So it's clear these are legitimate tools for price improvement.
Yes, if you flash 500,000 shares, someone might jump in front of you. On the other hand, if you flash 100 or 1,000 shares, and there are 50,000 shares on the offer, no one is going to be 50,000 shares to possibly make a penny on 100.
Yes, flash are somewhat artificial, but there isn't any other way to do it given the SEC's ban on sub-penny pricing. Furthermore, they are completely voluntarily. You can send a non-flash order, it's the default. NASDAQ, BATS, DirectEdge completely disclose to the market place that this is being done. Anyone who is connected to NASDAQ or BATS can respond to them, and on DirectEdge anyone who is on the ELP program can see them (and they don't try to discriminate in terms of access). BATS and DirectEdge give away their market data, and NASDAQ only charges modest administrative fees.
So the opposite intention is getting effect here. The public exchanges come out with an equal access way to compete with dark pools. But it seems it will get banned. And this will just drive more volume away from public markets and to the dark pools, where pricing can be completely discriminatory. NASDAQ, one of the main proponents of this, doesn't even have the guts to stand up and defend the public markets, because their biggest customers run dark-pools (see Getco, etc). So they are just happy with being on equal footing with DirectEdge.
The end result of all this nonsense is that the regulations regarding dark pools (if any) will have loopholes, and the public markets will be worse off.
If you want to debate high frequency trading, debate high frequency trading. But flash orders are a valuable tool to the market.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 23:23
#19015
This is the same poster. Anyone who reads this and has the ability to see the book for all venues and the size associated.
Take a look at the books for BAC and XLF tomorrow and post if you disagree that the public markets would be more efficient (and investors would get better prices) if they had a means for engaging in sub-penny trading for these stocks. (Which is possible if you have flash type orders)
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 03:19
#19062
thanks for this!
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 04:04
#19069
Thanks for your post. I appreciate your input. +1
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 06:41
#19096
A long winded post doesn't support any of your claims. There are no negotiations in an electronic market. There is no auction. The markets are posted, or in many cases flickering and that's it. 10.00 to 10.01. Take the offer or hit the bid.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 09:31
#19241
What any institution is concerned about is not just the price but the price including execution fees. That's why if you execute send a market order through TD Ameritrade, they don't send it to the public market. They send it to either Citadel or Knight
http://www.tdameritrade.com/forms/CLR2054.pdf
Knight or Citadel pay them 0.001 or 0.002 per share, so that turns into 10.008 or 10.009 (of course, they don't directly pass this onto the customer. get the game here?). Go to the public market you're paying 0.003 to remove on NASDAQ, so that turns into 11.003
(See fees to remove liquidity)
http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/Trader.aspx?id=PriceListTrading2#rebates
That's why Ameritrade doesn't send ANY market orders to the public market. They're basically just using NASDAQ, etc. when they need to post liquidity, trade in the opening / closing cross, etc.
Flash/Bolt/ELP is a way to compete with this.
"$0.0015 rebate per share for routable shares displayed and then executed on BATS through the BOLT display
process" http://www.batstrading.com/resources/regulation/rule_book/BATS_Ex_Fee_Schedule.pdf
That turns the $11.01 purchase into a $11.0085 price before fees. That's price improvement. Hmm wait 30 milliseconds to see if you can get a better price if there are a lot of sellers out there. Sounds like an auction to me.
Unless you want volume to disappear from public exchanges, you have to give them a way to compete with the arrangements offered by Citadel, Knight etc. Think about it this way. RegNMS doesn't allow the public quotes to be $11.01 bid at $11.01 offered, even if the prices are different after execution fees. Yet, if TD "pings" Citadel, while Citadel has that order, they are seeing the market as $11.01 bid (from the ping) at $11.01 offered (on the public markets). And they are under no obligation to fill the ping. They don't have the risk of having a firm quote out there. They can pass on it. They get to see a better market than anyone else.
As further evidence of how uninformed the commentary on this is issue, check out this link.
http://www.batstrading.com/resources/features/bats_exchange_dark_liq.pdf
BATS has one order type... bolt, they try to make completely transparent, and available to every member, and everyone is complaining about it. They have a separately order type, where access isn't fair (only Getco, Knight, Citi, and Liquidnet see it) that is open described on their website, and no one mentions it.
NYSE is one of the biggest critics of flash/bolt (again which I believe try to be open and transparent... BATS gives away market data that contains BOLTS order for free), etc. Yet NYSE Arca routes to 29 dark pools, seeing if anyone wants the order before route it to an exchange, and no one mentions it. They even get on CNBC and say they do nothing like flash, etc.
"NYSE Arca, for example, will pass an outbound routed order through a "cloud" of electronic indications from as many as 29 dark pools. The order executes against indications pooled in the cloud before being routed to protected quotes on other markets. Customers that execute against the cloud are guaranteed NBBO-or-better executions."
http://www.tradersmagazine.com/issues/20_289/102773-1.html
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-19743.pdf
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 10:22
#19362
Let's take a step back. " Yet, if TD "pings" Citadel, while Citadel has that order, they are seeing the market as $11.01 bid (from the ping) at $11.01 offered (on the public markets). And they are under no obligation to fill the ping. They don't have the risk of having a firm quote out there. They can pass on it. They get to see a better market than anyone else."
1 No obligation to fill
2 No risk of firm quote
As I said before, long post does nothing to support a weak argument.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 07:33
#19118
Thank you for taking the time to write this! Very clear and informative. What is your view on computers placing a series of orders and immediately canceling them, in order to get information on the limits of other traders?
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:39
#18987
I suggest you send this later in paper form, the old fashioned way, sign with your real name and state clearly that you are one of his constituents.
on Wed, 07/29/2009 - 22:48
#18995
If I cancel the order for ABCD, the front runner order sometimes disappears and sometimes stays for a short time, maybe 10 minutes.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:21
#19032
The Fly in the Ointment.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:35
#19037
Goldman is the equivalent of a card cheat and would have been legally shot in the old west.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:45
#19038
Tyler, just wanted to suggest that you email this to (alot of) other members of congress, too.
Many of them would be happy to out-populist Shumer, I'm sure.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:52
#19039
This was an open letter. By definition, it went to a LOT of people other than just Schumer.
BTW, Tyler, just had a friendly chat with a successful broker from Texas claiming EVERYBODY he knows in the industry read ZH. Keep up the good work.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 01:21
#19047
As a long time investor I am in a fairly disadvantaged position, why not to ban short sales and day trading too.
It is too much manipulation from day traders and short sellers on the market.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 06:55
#19102
I'm a technical analyst. If price is not a true equilibruim between buyers and sellers, then I'm out of business.
I think they have to make every order that goes into the market good for one second.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 07:26
#19114
Original poster is confused. Forwarding GS marketing materials to a congressman is not a "paper." You are merely spamming Chuck Schumer with publicly available information. All brokers have internal liquidity pools. They all give algo and DMA traders the option to send child orders to their internal crossing / dark pools before going out to to the market, it has become part of the basic SORT setup. I actually really like the MLXN pool setup by Merrill, because it does indeed have a significant amount of retail flow, due to Merrill's business model.
Please try to be substantial and informed in your criticisms of different market structures. If I was a retail trader I would not write strategies that require the kind of infrastructure investments that professionals can afford. Institutions have problems that retail traders don't. It would be a relief not to have to worry about showing my size to the market and get my orders done at the open every day with a few clicks. I would run my models, pay the fucking spread, and go get some coffee.
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 07:33
#19119
They are gearing up for a huge INCREASE in HFT.NYSE's Fast-Trade Hub Rises Up in New Jersey
"Right now, the mammoth facility being constructed on the site of an old quarry is a largely empty shell with a jumble of high-tech gear. In about a year, the building is expected to house several football fields of cutting-edge computing equipment for hedge funds and other firms that engage in high-frequency trading, or the use of computers and complex algorithms to trade at lightning speed."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124890969888291807.html#articleTabs%3Darticle
on Thu, 07/30/2009 - 07:41
#19123
I have nothing against trading excepting the recent HFT stuff being discussed here. I know that "legitimate" trading (probably has) a real benefit.
But what about investing for the long(er) term - is that truly dead?
Probably just rhetorical..
Pete
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