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Logan’s Run: The Averted Government Shutdown, The Debt Ceiling And The Long-Term Fiscal Situation Of The United States

Tyler Durden's picture


A good compilation of the dead end America finds itself in, how we got there, and one possible interpretation of where we may be going, via Michael Cembalest of JPMorgan.



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Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:20 | 1160521 Rahm
Rahm's picture

JPMorgue to the rescue.  Or to the bankrupt court, either way.


LOL, they want to double FICA taxes, are they FICAing nutz?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:34 | 1160549 NewThor
NewThor's picture

How do you pay off a $15 trillion dollar debt?

What happens when ZIRP goes away?

How do you reward criminals with trillions of dollars and then hope they will change?


ARE 'people too'?



Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:34 | 1160554 Doña K
Doña K's picture

The ultimate revenge. Buy Gold and Silver

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:34 | 1160556 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Calm down will you.Americans still have MLB and NFL, take away the entertainment and they will cease to exisit. America is the MOB they love their TV crap

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:57 | 1160602 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Uh Huh. That'll stop the rioting. Worked in Rome, didn't it?


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:10 | 1160703 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Instead of killing off all those over 30 because you have to, like in "Logan's Run" just send them all to internment camps because they are uncool - like in "Wild in the Streets".

And boy, if this is the best we can do for economic commentary at the highest levels of finance, we are in worse condition than I thought.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:07 | 1160702 Barry Freed
Barry Freed's picture

Surrogate input contrary to established facts.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:13 | 1160774 Michael
Michael's picture

Let me see if I get this strait. Speculators who work for and are employees of investment banks, are taking the money handed to them on a silver platter at zero interest rates by the Federal Reserve Corporation, and are using that money to drive up commodity prices causing worldwide inflation. Did I get that right?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:54 | 1160837 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

well, i read this piece 0' shit and i don't think it was in the pile of utter bullshit.  not sure, tho!  lol!

ya know what else was missing?  the idea that it's time to send about 60% of all our fukin goobermint employees home.  bye bye!   if you read this crap, the idea might begin to fetish like green hair or mouse ears!  hopefully, not like tyler!

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:50 | 1160730 MisterAmbassador
MisterAmbassador's picture

How do you pay off a $15 trillion dollar debt?

You don't.

When you owe someone $1,000, you have a problem.  When you owe someone $15 trillion, they have a problem.

We would literally need to suspend the Constitution and put in place a dictator with absolute power to make the real changes in the tax code and spending code to stop this ship from sinking.  It would have to be a noble dictator who did what was best for the country and not himself.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, though.  So, that debt will never be repaid, at least not with American dollars worth more than what they're made of or without selling land or territories.  That debt wasn't even run up by most Americans.  Our governmental system was hijacked and our Constitution interpreted in ways that were never intended.  Americans got comfortable in the abundance and didn't pay much attention to what was really going on.  The Federal Reserve enabled all of this.  Going off the gold standard allowed Nixon to pay for Vietnam without raising taxes, at least not literally.  The inflation under Carter, though, was the tax raise to pay for the Vietnam war.

America will go down as a myth, a legend, a time of unprecedented prosperity, abundance, and technological achievement.  Empires rise and fall.  That's just the way it is.  Human nature prevents us from solving problems that built up over 100 years.  Normalcy bias.  Our system corrupted, but I suppose that was inevitable.  Nothing is built to last.  If anything, our system was too successful.

We'll probably see another world war soon as oil and fresh water become more and more precious or as payment on our debts, and that will be the ball game for most of us.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 03:05 | 1160738 Selah
Selah's picture


All previous attempts to base money solely on intangibles such as credit or government edict or fiat have ended in inflation and disaster. Although Gold and Silver are not by nature money, money is by nature Gold and Silver.

Gold and Silver will remain money long after the dollar, euro, and yen are forgotten...


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 03:56 | 1160764 MisterAmbassador
MisterAmbassador's picture

Ron Paul would be a good dictator.  He would end the Fed.  I wouldn't even trust him with absolute power for more than a month or two, though.


The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.


-Thomas Jefferson

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:26 | 1160769 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture


Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul thinks his father is going to run for president - which means that the tea party favorite may not take the plunge himself.

Paul said he didn't know whether his father, Texas Rep. Ron Paul, would make another run for the GOP nomination - but he said that signs were pointing to a likely run.

"I get every indication from looking at his schedule and hearing what he’s doing that I think he probably will," the younger Paul told POLITICO. "But that’s his decision to make."

Ron "Father America" Paul > Donald "Limelight" Trump


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:29 | 1160819 Hot Shakedown
Hot Shakedown's picture

And Barack "Ain't Got No Berf Cerfiticket" Obama

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:17 | 1160852 Sathington Willougby
Sathington Willougby's picture

Mr. "I got through skool on a foreign student scholarship with the name Barry Soetero but Barack is my black nom de guerre so I used that for all my politicking." Obama

Cheap identity fraud and no one called the fool on it.  America is NOT a nation of laws.  It's a nation of crime and slaves.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:32 | 1160865 MisterAmbassador
MisterAmbassador's picture

It doesn't matter if Obama was born in the United States or on Mars.  He's not going to be impeached; instead of putting Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin on TV (both complete idiots, btw), they should focus on Marco Rubio or Chris Christie; however, that would show that Republicans aren't racist bigots who have no logic behind their ideas, so it won't happen.  Barack Obama is the President of the United States of America, like it or not.  Pursuing "birther arguments" is pointless.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:06 | 1160842 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

really?  ron paul running for president?  whodathunkit?  thanks, randy! now you both look like fuking morons!

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:40 | 1160860 MisterAmbassador
MisterAmbassador's picture

Whether or not Ron Paul runs is irrelevant.  Our system was deliberately designed to make tyranny impossible, even during times that call for tyranny (tax, entitlement, pointless war and spending reform).  Besides the fact he wouldn't win, it's too late to stop what's headed our way.  The time to fix this was during the boom of the 1990s.

The Founding Fathers didn't design the fourth branch of government - the Fed.  When you control a nation's money, its laws and Constitution do not matter.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:19 | 1160905 MisterAmbassador
MisterAmbassador's picture

I don't know if anyone will read this far, but I have another point to make.

Our system as designed by the Founding Fathers would have been forced to deal with these problems over time if the Fed hadn't been there do enable us to borrow and kick them down the road.  We wouldn't be faced with a collapse, if it hadn't been for the Fed.

Our system was the most brilliant system ever designed.  It would have worked for thousands of years if our money was sound and based on something real.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:13 | 1161216 John Law Lives
John Law Lives's picture

Ron Paul has zero chance to be the GOP nominee.  Zero.

Rand Paul would have zero chance to be the GOP nominee if he ran.  Zero.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:33 | 1161270 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Good comments except this:

If anything, our system was too successful.

I disagree. The corrupted misallocation of resources  was greatly if not solely responsible of the breakkdown of the family and our society.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 03:01 | 1168016 MisterAmbassador
MisterAmbassador's picture

Yes, but that wouldn't have happened if the Fed hadn't been there to enable that corrupted misallocation.  Our system would have been forced to deal with those problems and many others like entitlements and playing "world police" over time instead of delaying them all until now when they are impossible to solve all at once and leave no option other than draconian cuts or imminent collapse.  The Fed isn't part of our system or wasn't supposed to be, anyway.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:39 | 1160944 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

No they aren't FICAing nutz, but the only plan I have personally seen is eight pages of economic heresy to any academic with a Nobel prize or politician in the pockets of big business.  However, it is also the only structuring that actually corrects the cost curve.  The model is viable because it actually aligns revenue structure with cost structure, but immigration is needed to overcome the demographics of an aging workforce.  As an added bonus, the FICA approach does away with the perverse profit incentive for a business to hire 1 worker to do the work of 2, and thus counter-intuitively promotes job creation while raising FICA taxes.  However, the plan is impossible since it would actually require bipartisanship.      

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 12:21 | 1161883 Rahm
Rahm's picture

Bipartisanship isn't the roadblock to doubling FICA, it's the American worker.  Give a person, claiming exempt, a $1,000 paycheck minus $76.5 for their share of FICA.  They can accept that.

Now give that same person a $1,000 paycheck, minus $153, and see how they take it.   For what? Out of control spending?...unfunded liabilities?  There would be a revolt..... unless American Idol was on that night.

You are correct regarding decreasing demographics resulting in immigration, but do you think abortion has anything to do with that?  What would 53million people paying into the system do, 53 million buying all sorts of good stuff like baby bottles, formula, shoes, their first cars, first homes, their iPad2s, etc...

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 12:48 | 1161973 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

But it would take bipartisanship to pass legislation that raises FICA.  The proposal I saw actually wasn't as simplistic as doubling FICA.  The components were 1) eliminating both the wage & accrual caps 2) progressive rates increases on the employer half of FICA over the current cap (not the employee half), while introducing relief for the double-taxation of the self-employed 3) means testing benefits 4) phasing in an indexing of the retirement age to life expectancy. 

Of course on top of that, you then must actually cut both discretionary and defense spending, fix medicare & medicaid, and the restructure both the tax code and executive branch regulations to repatriate domestic operations and profits and attract new foreign investment.

Perhaps it isn't the lack of bipartisanship, but a LACK OF BALLZ, since Washington would need a much bigger collective pair to even entertain the idea.

Meanwhile, they continue to spend the nation to death.



Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:22 | 1160527 nah
nah's picture

i vote bullshit

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:32 | 1160551 Doña K
Doña K's picture

Yes, but buy gold and silver also. The ultimate revenge for those who have a few shekels left. 

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:22 | 1160529 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

JPMorgan... those who helped create the crisis... they shouldn't be making analysis, they should all be in jail.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:34 | 1160555 Moonrajah
Moonrajah's picture

Oh, it's quite all right for them to do an analysis... IF they do it behind bars.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:45 | 1160578 Rahm
Rahm's picture

Don't insult Martin Armstrong like that.  To the guillotine they go!

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:23 | 1160534 tickhound
tickhound's picture

in other words... "QE3, or else"

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:33 | 1160545 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Two things keep the United States "Solvent".

1. Global Reserve currency

2. Global bully military

Oh, and a socially engineered, deer-in-headlights populace.

All the rest is thin veneer on ugly truths.


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:58 | 1160605 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

 a socially engineered, deer-in-headlights populace.

Come on dude. You aren't that fucking stupid.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:07 | 1160624 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

You can't come out of 50 years of cold war propaganda conditioning unscathed. I don't know if you can see it from the inside. When you live in another country and observe the American media and political dialog, the narrow range of acceptable viewpoints is glaring.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:12 | 1160632 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Oh horseshit.  The American media and the current thuggery in office is not America, it's a bunch of propoganda peddlers.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:16 | 1160648 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

I don't know. Perception tends to be reality. How do most people percieve their country and the world? Through the world of screens, and it's been that way a long time.

Count the small percentage of contrarian types that come to ZH and places like it out. We aren't the mainstream, we're domestic terrorists.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:28 | 1160815 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

it's what you voted in, it is America...

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:10 | 1160884 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

So?  Entitlements grab a lot of votes. That is a consequence of the free extra money floating with fiat currency and thuggery that follows as I said.

Learn to read son. 

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 08:39 | 1161093 Sweet Chicken
Sweet Chicken's picture

No offense but you sound extremely dellusional.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:07 | 1161190 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Good!  Was I talking to you? Why would you want to talk to a delusional person?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 15:35 | 1162710 Sweet Chicken
Sweet Chicken's picture

Dear god man are you in fifth grade?!

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:33 | 1161274 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

it's what you voted in, it is America...

One word for ya: Diebold.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:00 | 1160873 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"You can't come out of 50 years of cold war propaganda conditioning unscathed."

There is the MIC propaganda and a whole lot of social engineering as well.

"a socially engineered, deer-in-headlights populace"

Absolutely correct.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:13 | 1160886 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Wrong. Absolute foreign invented bullshit.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:56 | 1160987 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

I'm an American.  This kind of thought originates right here in the good old USA.  You should check out what some of America's "think tanks" have been up to over the past 100 years.  It is downright UnAmerican.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:10 | 1161196 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

You are no American. An American doesn't need to say he's American. Stop trying to fool people.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:41 | 1161353 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

There is certainly no fooling you, JLee.  However, I did check my files and my birth certificate is still there.  No, you can't see it.


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 08:40 | 1161097 Sweet Chicken
Sweet Chicken's picture

Proving my last comment.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:35 | 1161279 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Are you trying to prove "thinking makes it so"?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:05 | 1160616 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

The irony; that the USA spent so much time 'fighting' the cold war, spent so much trying to remain the sole superpower post USSR, has sacrificed so much in the name of security. In the end the people will realize that they aren't free after all. At least in Soviet Russia, they people knew it was all lies, and they lived in spite of it.

Still, I try to take the long view. Perhaps this is only a dark chapter in the story of American liberty. The founding fathers had a pretty good start, and I think that the notions of liberty as originally conceived were something to aspire to. It seems America didn't heed Jefferson's advice to refresh the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants and patriots.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:13 | 1160640 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

The irony; that the USA spent so much time 'fighting' the cold war, spent so much trying to remain the sole superpower post USSR, has sacrificed so much in the name of security.

Borderline Idiotic.

Free and easy money, fiat currency, allows the crap to float to the top. America is still here you kook.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:15 | 1160647 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

You gotta love all the foreigners who come in here, on an American message board, and talk shit about America.

You don't know us, but you think you do. Assholes.


Mind your own fucking business. 

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:26 | 1160663 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

Sorry, nobody checked my passport on the way in. I think you could do with a hug though.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:29 | 1160668 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Typical. I spent 12 years there Jlee. Coast to coast. Senior management at very large defense contractor. Silicon valley boom and bust. Driven up and down and around. Been broke, seen the underbelly. 

I think I'm in a pretty good position to know what I'm saying. PErhaps you need to get out of your bunker some.

Not blaming the populace anyways, social engneering via TV and Hollywoood in general is pretty powerful stuff.

If you think 90% of your fellow-americans are stand-up, wide awake folks, good luck to you and yours.

Most representatives of America here in India are insufferable, obnoxious and that is pretty much how you are seen (as a people) the world over. must be a reason for that, eh?

Sounds like you are a stranger in your own land.

And the fact that you call a ZH an american message board shows yoru xenophobia and narrow-minded outlook to life anyways. At least that is how you are coming across right now.


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:38 | 1160671 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

My point is simple, and you still don't get it.




Do you get it now?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:43 | 1160678 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Tch! Narrow minded xenophobe.

I think Dr. PChop is right, you go need a hug.

Here, have a virtual one *Hug*.

It's okay, nation-states are division creating constructs. And since YOUR country is currently screwing MY country, I do care. Actually, since YOUR country is also currently screwing YOUR country (and YOU in the process), I do care. Moreover, YOUR country is curently screwing many parts of the world, including Pakistand And Afghanistan, MY neighbours, with cowardly bombings, mindless slaughter and no reason for being there in the first place, I do actually care a lot.

Now go, take a prophylactic and a big dump, you sound like you need it.


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:40 | 1160727 i-dog
i-dog's picture


Well played, ORI.

PS. I remember this troll from last year. Seems like any handle with a '7' in it is code for 'troll' (except Trav ... I think he's just a provocative fucker). Avoid them.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:14 | 1160894 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

And you are from what country again? Not America. What business of America is yours?

None. You are the troll.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:15 | 1160891 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Just more self-serving nonsense on your part. The end justifies the means according to you.

You are nothing more than an American hating bigot whose H1B visa ran out and cannot come back.

No more replies to you.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:52 | 1160682 tickhound
tickhound's picture


"Do you get it now?"

Yeah, "they" get it.  And if "they" don't like it, we'll make it their business... By way of an embargo or two, or some cruise missiles while we M-16 their ass into submission and take some resources in the name of "freedom and democracy."  Throw in a poppy field or two for good measure.  And you better pay back that loan, bitch. 

I'm an American and isn't that right?  Asshole?


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:04 | 1160768 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

ya know, tickhound, JLee didn't threaten any violence whatsoever.  he made a point that as a nation, americans need to start thinking with clear focus abt america.  he wasn't very nice about it.  so fukin what?

i don't think he deserves the condesension and the "hugs" now from his canadian and indian friends. 

i hope i'm not putting too many words in his mouth.  but i like what he said, and i got no problem with the way he said it, either.  there is a line there.  maybe canadians and indians just think it's a joke.  maybe some americans don't.

i'm not so concerned about the damned line, myself, as i am about americans beginning to wake up and focus.

for example:  here we go again about the "dead end" we are in and the fact that there's nothing, blahblahblahblah.  bullshit!

just a few days ago, we had career civil servants getting ready to send goobermint employees home.  chuck butler writes, this morning for the daily reckoning: 

04/11/11 St. Louis, Missouri – Well… The government did avert a shutdown late Friday night… I’m going to tick a few people off with this statement, but oh well… On Friday, the government agencies had to make up lists of “essential workers” and “non-essential workers”… Wanna reduce the government debt? If those people are “non-essential” then… Well, why are taxpayers paying for “non-essential” workers?

Read more: Government Shutdown Averted We need to start sending goobermint emplyees home in large #'s from all levels of goobermint.  i'm sorry.  they ARE non-essential.   we know it;  they know it;  case closed.  for some reason, it is taboo to utter this sentiment.  sorry, times are tough.  food stamps all around, and, thanks for eveything!  bye bye! 20% increments.  keep the most experienced 20% and the least experienced 20% and tell em to do it right, or we'll just replace em all!  any questions?
Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:04 | 1160793 tickhound
tickhound's picture


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:17 | 1160804 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

I guess he'll have no comment on any future stories regarding the world outside of the US in order to maintain the integrity of his isolationist internet commenting policy.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:16 | 1160896 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture
I'm not here for politics, so why would I care about your little shithole? I don't. It's your problem.
Tue, 04/12/2011 - 14:27 | 1162421 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

Get off my lawn!


You have no point, you're just a fucking twat.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:37 | 1160825 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Well Slooee, glad you showed your real colors too, brother sloo.

Hah, I'll admit you had with all that enneagram, Gurdjieff cover you had going for a bit.

Always good to pierce a veil.



Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:14 | 1160708 Hot Piece of Bass
Hot Piece of Bass's picture

Hey watch this...


My point is simple, and you still don't get it.


Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, Grenada, Yugoslavia, El Salvador, Colombia, Korea(and any other country the US has a base in...) is not YOUR COUNTRY OR YOUR BUSINESS. 


Do you get it now?"

See what I did there?

Neat huh?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:20 | 1160777 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

nice fish!  yep!  i see what you did!  however, either something is interfering with your intelligence, or perhaps you are insane:  do you not understand the what you "do" here in no way invalidates JLee's main point which is that americans need to focus on what they can really do to make things better.

if you are an american and you do not realize that truth at this point, what the fuk are you doing here on zH? 

do you really have a problem with JLee saying we need to get control of our own country, somehow?  i don't!  and i would hope that others may begin to see a slight glimmer of national wisdom, there. 

i don't care if ya don't like the asshole!  he's RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:35 | 1160824 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

for as long as decisions taken in Washington affect every other country on the planet he's WRONG...

Americans have a vote, everyone else has only a gun, or a bomb.

and every right to voice an opinion on this and any other website.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 08:46 | 1161116 Sweet Chicken
Sweet Chicken's picture

True dat!!! :thumbsup Harley!

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:28 | 1160717 Sedaeng
Sedaeng's picture

William Blums book "Killing Hope" documents your statement quite thoroughly tickhound! Very sad the BS I have been fed.

As a former Marine and DOD contractor, Ive worked & lived overseas from 03-07 & 2010. Ive seen first hand our 'foreign policies' at work. And ORI is quite correct when stating that we are conditioned. Takes traveling outside of the US and being exposed to other media outlets as well as seeing things first hand. (For me anyways) Ive seen the huge difference in what was stated by our media and what I was experiencing personally.


Major General Butler-(The most decorated Marine in US history at the time of his death)

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 03:49 | 1160741 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Dead on, Sedaeng.  I was a military "brat."  My father (and I am proud of his service) is a retired veteran army officer of 22 years.  From Brussels, Naples, Okinawa, 5 states... I've traveled and lived all over.  It was quite a ride. 

To get a sense of how our "enemies" must feel, one need sometimes to only ask our "allies."  It was from them that I began to understand the words, "ugly American."

My father fought in Vietnam to "protect our freedom" and "thwart Communism."  This war was a failure... And yet isn't it interesting that this "failed operation" has since led to a peaceful relationship, in both partnership and trade, with Vietnam.  Who would've ever thought?  Right?   

"War is a Racket" - Smedley Butler



Tue, 04/12/2011 - 08:12 | 1161032 Hot Shakedown
Hot Shakedown's picture

I was born at Fort Bragg in '65. My father was in the SF 5th Group. From about the age 10, I learned to question all media which formed the basis of my contrarian view on investing.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 12:01 | 1161818 tickhound
tickhound's picture

My father was 10th SF Group, Fort Devens, Mass. back in the day before they shut it down.  Cheers.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:28 | 1160718 Ensane
Ensane's picture


As a feel American I am embarassed at your narrow-minded and simplistic view.

Your on the wrong on this one.


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:32 | 1160782 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

bullshit!!! he may be narrow-minded and simplistic, i don't fukin care!  he's right!

this whole page is nothing but ad hominem arguments.  fallacies.  lQQk at what is happening here!  please!

you don't like him, so he must be wrong!  ooops!  stick yer hugs and yer moronic barbs up yer own asses, and smedley fukin butler's,  too!  JLee is right about the focus we need as a nation.  all kindsa fukin people who don't get along and are total assholes. 

i'm in!!!

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:44 | 1160830 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

'You gotta love all the foreigners who come in here, on an American message board, and talk shit about America.

You don't know us, but you think you do. Assholes.'

- 'JLee is right about the focus we need as a nation.' - His statement has nothing to do with your argument. He is saying that foreigners should not have an adverse opinion on American policy on this website presumably because it is sited on a US server.

Which is bullshit and indefensible.

You can argue about it all you like, ain't going to change anything...

He's still wrong.


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:20 | 1160902 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

I don't come shit in your house, and you have a problem with me?

Go fuck yourself.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 12:02 | 1161811 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I just don't tend to get on with tossers in general...

so, unlucky...

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:36 | 1160723 recursion
recursion's picture

If your point was "Im am exactly the kind of brainwashed toolbox who gives this country a bad name" -- then yea... i get it.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:39 | 1160787 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

no, that wasn't his point, you passive-aggressive freak!  he made his point.  i've made his point.  you folks have made a tacit agreement not to get his point.  not us.  you.  he's obviously pretty hard to get along with. 

that certainly doensn't make him wrong.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:01 | 1160698 B-rock
B-rock's picture

An "American message board"??


I thought it was an internet message board you flag waving dick.



Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:21 | 1160904 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Based in America, about this country you POS.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 15:59 | 1162804 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

First, I seem to recall someone mentioning that this site is served outside the US in better to protect free-speech rights for twats like you. One of the Tylers would have to verify.

Second, though a majority of stories are US-centric because the US is still the world's largest economy, this is a forum to comment on the global economy hence the stories on Ireland, Iceland, China, etc.

Third, your comments have illustrated perfectly the points brought up by Dr. Ham and ORI

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:32 | 1160720 Advoc8tr
Advoc8tr's picture

If you and your flag waving imperialistic cohorts had mind your own business for the last 50 fucking years we wouldn't all be in this mess.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:10 | 1160773 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

again, i didn't notice JLee advocating imperialism.  what are you people projecting?  is it not possible that he would like US citizens to focus on US problems.  what you peole are doing, here, will NOT work for the nation.  what he is doing might work.  JLee's ideas are therefore more practical.  sorry. 


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:04 | 1160832 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

If he has an idea then perhaps we should hear it.

I haven't heard anything yet other than 'don't criticise me on this website if you're not an American...'

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 11:20 | 1161650 suldog
suldog's picture

Gotta agree with the board on this one - you seem to be a bit of an oxygen thief yourself Jlee.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:08 | 1160876 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"America is still here you kook."

If you watch long enough, you'll see that "America" is constantly morphing.  Over time you will not recognize the country you were born into.  The change over the last decade has been accelerating.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:39 | 1161286 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Certainly you're correct about the fiat money root of evil.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:32 | 1160548 trgfunds
trgfunds's picture

Put on some White Zombie music and brace for impact. There is no QE3.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:36 | 1160651 Hook Line and S...
Hook Line and Sphincter's picture

QE3 is coming, but we are going to have thunderkiss 65 reverberate inside our minds whether it is or isn't official... grind in an odyssey holocaust heart kick    yeaaaaah,  yeaaaaah

"Logan’s Run: The Averted Government Shutdown, The Debt Ceiling And The Long-Term Fiscal Situation Of The United States"   You've got to love the unspoken premise in 'Long-Term'. 

I'm not buying.

Yeaaaah, Yeaaaah




Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:33 | 1160783 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:38 | 1161291 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

There is no QE3.

Sure there is...

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:37 | 1160559 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Hey, let's all sell the gold and silver. That boat has sailed away. Fukushima looks contained, Timmay says we have a "strong doellar", Barry says he's ready to cut, and GM is coming around. It's all rosey from here on out.  



Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:46 | 1160582 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Cahs for clunkers part 2 on its way. Must save GM Must save GM and more money needed.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:45 | 1161296 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

GM is being saved somewhat by the destruction of the Japanese economy via radiation contamination and the devastation from the earthQsunami.

Toyota can't produce in Japan, hence GM gets some table scraps. Given the steering wheels falling off the GM cars this means a good used car market ahead.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 16:18 | 1162876 suldog
suldog's picture

Channel stuffing - brilliant foresight, eh?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 12:18 | 1165467 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Learn something new everyday.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:37 | 1160560 Dan The Man
Dan The Man's picture

sounds bullish

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:56 | 1160838 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

absofuckinglutely old stick...

$1,464 and rising... again...

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:40 | 1160562 trgfunds
trgfunds's picture

I don't think you guys realize. Without QEx the price of *everything* tanks. Yes, that would include your precious metals. There will also be liquidity problems. Have fun with that.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:50 | 1160589 tickhound
tickhound's picture

"Obvious" doesn't begin to describe your comment.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:55 | 1160603 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Obvious troll you mean?


If QE stops, the US economy goes boom, along with the world and PMs will pick right up again.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:08 | 1160622 tickhound
tickhound's picture

"Obvious" troll who thinks "we don't get it" and obvious he has no metals.

Meanwhile, I stick with a little (ugh, selected) equities, some FRN's (that could probably, err maybe, buy some shit or, at worst, double as tp), and the metals.

I didn't fight the Fed on the way up... So why fight 'em too hard in the end.  If central banks are hoarding metal, I'll take my chances and do (did) the same. 

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:08 | 1160623 trgfunds
trgfunds's picture

You call me a troll. I'll call you a bagholder. Aren't internet insults fun? But, you know I shouldn't trade insults with you. Hell, I'm quite thankful for you, because on the other side of every gain or prevented loss there is a loss. Have fun when you're seeing 70% losses and you're illiquid. The one sided thinking of the gold bug (or that behind any hyped asset class -- real estate anyone?) is exactly what the system wants.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:35 | 1160660 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Oh yeah, that's right.  Cuz if I'm not a Repub I must be a Dem.  And if I own gold, I by default own nothing else.    

"One sided thinking of the gold bug"  LMAO!  True, maybe for some here (to be honest I like their chances).  The rest of us who grabbed a piece of this liquidity / debt trade from multiple angles... well, we'll just call you "naive."

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:59 | 1160841 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

actually everything doesn't tank. Without QEn gold just doesn't go as high as it currently must. There is no limit to how high gold must actually go, but without QE credit fails and gold simply doesn't go as high, but even today with current asset prices gold still has a long way to go.

Not until it is back in money will it have a fair value...

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:34 | 1160670 Selah
Selah's picture


You are not a troll; you are merely delusional or perhaps pretending to be ignorant.

The day that I see a guy holding a "We Sell Gold" sign on a street corner, I'll agree with your "hyped asset class" argument. AM radio ads and Glen Beck are hardly substitutes for a real MANIA. If you want to get upset about a perceived bubble, I suggest you take a look at palladium.

"Illiquid"? Paper promises will be when the great unwind begins, but not real metal. Thousands of years of history have proven a market for precious metals.

Nice to have folks like you on the other side of the trade for so many years.

Gold and Silver haven't been able to keep up with inflation and yet some fools still believe or want to believe in a "bubble".


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 12:18 | 1160737 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Where's my gold and silver? (GLD and SLV)?

Those are your "bagholders".

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 08:02 | 1160991 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

The fact that you used the term "bagholder" is quite telling.  This term is derived from the phrase "left holding the bag",  which means left to take the blame but having none of the spoils.  In light of that definition, gold hoarders could never become bagholders, because they always have something in their bag.  Dollar holders, on the other hand, are already bagholders who just haven't found out yet that their bag is empty.


Silver For The People:

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:50 | 1161317 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Are you the guy betting that $1 million short-option written against silver delivered in July? Timing's everything ain't it?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:25 | 1160805 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

hey, trgfunds @ # 1160562:  I don't think you guys realize. Without QEx the price of *everything* tanks. Yes, that would include your precious metals. There will also be liquidity problems. Have fun with that.

this is the gospel according to batmanke:  without the money, honey, deflation!  QE = money, keeps deflation away.  PMs would likely be subject to deflation, as they were in '08, going down to, like $700/ $8.++/oz, gold & silver, very high g/s ratio.  mining stocks go down with other stocks. 


keynesian.  the austrians would critique this how?  probably that deflationary pricing is healthy.  go ahead and liquidate!  shitcan the misallocated capital and if a company is insolvent, do the mercy killing and get on with what is left.  start fresh.  don't spend entire generations' savings attempting to keep cronies alive thru zombification. 


this is quite a different script.  yeah, maybe gold and silver go way down, again.  so what?  shit goes up and down all the time!  at the same time the insane gamblers that wiped out every client they ever had at 50:1 leverage, well, those firms and clients are s'posed to be:  wiped out!  not re-fied, reflated, and renovated!

the main problem i have is that w/out QE, the Treasury checks would bounce.  get rid of an incredible shitload of goobermint "employees"; get rid of QE.  start paying down the debt. or whatever.  quite a shock. 

the difference in these two econ theories?  austrians see this as an essentially healthy shock.  take yer fukin medicine and get back on yer feet asap.  the keynesians live to avoid this shock at all times, forever.  why, i have no idea.  i'm not so damned sure that keynseyan econ theory demands that this be avoided, tho.  i think it postulates that it can be avoided.

batmanke's the one preaching that it must

well, trgfunds.  fuk you and the banksters, too!  that's the important thing!  fuk you assholes!  let the chips fall!!!  batmanke's just using douchebags like you to bleed the nation dry.  that's enough!  let's see who gets drained when we stop that shit, ok?  really, trgfunds.  i'm not scared.  things will be here tomorrow.  see ya!

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:45 | 1161308 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Those pricks don't have the balls to stop QE.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:45 | 1160579 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Good to see only the best crooks run the USA. USA makses the rest of the world look non corrupt and people still work for Corp America thinking it the greatest thing. Shows how shallow minded folks are in the USA. Work, I meant to go and sit and chat about thier lifes and do nothing and collect a check.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:48 | 1160586 Dan The Man
Dan The Man's picture

i want it to tank...i'll be loading up.  i'll vote for a 'delayed' QE3.  then i can retire.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:56 | 1160601 trgfunds
trgfunds's picture

You gonna transact in gold too when/if you retire? Or are you just hoping for this gold to be worth as many dollars as possible (and in the process have outsmarted the people who know/run/control the entire system) Sorry guys, it isn't that simple.  

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:18 | 1160650 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Your arguments are old, tired, and have been disproved many times over.  And, no, I don't intend to refute them here.  You're too late to the party.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:37 | 1160785 saulysw
saulysw's picture

Rocky, one day you won't even bother with that generous summary.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:56 | 1161327 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

In 2005 bought $20K junk silver at around $5.

Perhaps we should have invested elsewhere?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:34 | 1160823 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

look,  trgfunds @ # 1160601:  many people, who actually do this, may really find it pretty simple.  it's ok if you want to be 10000% keynesian.  we don't care!  it's allowed! 

so are we!  we're allowed too!  stop pretending it can't be done.  it can't be done by you, is all!  really!  fukin impossibility.  good for you!  we're all a little eccentric, ok?  nobody cares!

please!  let us off the hook, too, ok?


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:58 | 1160587 poor fella
poor fella's picture


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:52 | 1160588 bad craziness
bad craziness's picture

Tyler - a request if I may.  I like to print these sorts of notes and take them to the shitter for serious contemplation.  Scribd seems to somehow block up my work system which sends me into a fury.  If possible please post a PDF link as per todays earlier Artemis note and I can stop ranting like a madman about Scribd being the devils own.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 00:54 | 1160592 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Logan's Run! I read the book in the 70's dammit!  How cool is that.  Thanks for bringing back the memories. Good one Tyler.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:05 | 1160617 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Hamilton all over again.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:12 | 1160637 AldoHux_IV
AldoHux_IV's picture

Fuck these motherfuckers-- they need to burn for what they did and continue to get away with.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 09:56 | 1161338 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

I didn't enjoy that. I like answers to questions.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:17 | 1160652 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

Ya know the REAL issue here, is that the players are really playing for keeps, ie. their either win, or we ALL lose! A 'Scorched Earth Policy'. That's pretty simple to understand.


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:45 | 1160683 geotrader
geotrader's picture

Don't see how anyone can win this.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:21 | 1160659 SparkyvonBellagio
SparkyvonBellagio's picture

I'm middle aged and I'm telling the young people-



The old mouth-breathers/droolers will bend you over for a buck.


I'm so sick and tired of seeing the youth get hosed because of the old raisins. 

Give me a break, Take it all BACK!






Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:06 | 1160701 Barry Freed
Barry Freed's picture


I don't know about that, what about a soylent green society?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 02:18 | 1160710 Selah
Selah's picture


I've heard rumors that soylent green is "people". I'll take my chances with Logan's Run.

However, this "Logan" will be running with an AK and a Glock...


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:17 | 1160853 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I am sick of hairs stealing our childrens future and putting them in debt.

Some of these raisins believe they are just getting back what they put in. They feel they earned it.

Fucking.stupid selfish old people.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:26 | 1160664 Peak Everything
Peak Everything's picture

I think you should stop posting stuff from JPMorgan and Goldman. These low life's created the mess and should not have a voice.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:31 | 1160667 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

The worst thing is that they really think they are "elites", smart, and so forth. 

But they are just big douches born rich. 

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:13 | 1160850 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

That is an ignorant statement.

Lloyd blankfein was born poor.

There are many poor and middle class to riches stories in the usa.

I am one of those. Most of the top two percent was not born there. It takes real work. Eighty hour weeks are the norm.

You dont want to work that hard, but you expect me to give you some of my money for things you cant afford.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:41 | 1161509 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Today's "money" is fake. Your earned money came from a perversion of the monetary system. Maybe you worked hard to earn that money and perhaps you should be commended for your efforts. Have you earned the right to steal the natural resources belonging to the people and our progeny?

As far as your "wealth" is concerned, it may be that you'll have to earn the right to keep it.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:45 | 1160681 Selah
Selah's picture


I am against the silencing of any voices, no matter how repulsive the tongue.

Don't we need to know the thoughts of the "enemy"?


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:58 | 1160693 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

We do, indeed, so I've nothing against these posts. 

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:12 | 1160887 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Just as long as the enemy is upfront about who they are.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:43 | 1161519 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Hell no, that's part of the fun.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:39 | 1160673 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture


JP Morgue writing about "entitlement obligations" and "the debt" two-and-a-half years after the TBTF Bank Bailouts?

Suspicious, to say the least.

What next, a piece on Seniors having to donate plasma to Wall Street to get their SS checks and Medicare?

You did hear about the J.P. Morgue and Goldball Sacks paying to get the H1N1 vaccine ahead of anyone else in Fall 2010 didn't you?

How different is that from ovens at Auschwitz?


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 05:22 | 1160808 6 String
6 String's picture

"Two and a half years after the bailouts?"

WTF. The bailouts of the banks continue.....

Take ZIRP up to the real rate of inflation and take away the Great Ponzi Scheme and they come crumbing down, tomorrow.

The bailouts haven't ended, and won't, until it fucking explodes in every face in America. Fukishma is nothing. This disaster will trump all.

The JP Morgan Chase Bear Sterns Rockefeller story will not end well, for almost anyone--mark my words.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 01:40 | 1160675 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

I love the part in beige.  Unless entitlements can be curbed, the fed will debase the currency and hit savers.

ROFL.  It's not the fraud, it's the entitlements? What idiots.

It IS the fraud.  The current fraud, as well as all the cumlative fraud from Bretton Woods II onwards. 

But they want to blame entitlements.  (and not let the people who created this mess, risk anything)

Nope, it's the people who must suffer lower services, and worthless dollars.

...and the kicker....they call THAT default.

No, it's only default, when you actually default...and if the fraud is defaulted on, or Glass-Steagall'ed away, then the dollar is NOT debased, but would grow stronger.

Funny how they fuck words up and get people to believe bs.

It's like when they started the whole 'balance the budget' thingy, and started equating every dollar spent was equal, except what the banksters were spending, and WHAT they were fraudulently spending it on.  Now, everyone wants a 'balanced budget', brought to you by ALL BANKSTERS, at all costs, whatever that means. (oh yeah, it means...printing for fraud, and cutting services to the bone...until they can use up that leeway by printing for more fraud, thus necessitating more cuts, etc...until the hyperinflation or revolts start)

Don't print for fraud, don't cut for fraud, call it fraud (because it is) and cancel the fraud [and prosecute].


(oh and cut the bailouts and big wars, which would be significant cuts mind you)


Tue, 04/12/2011 - 04:39 | 1160788 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Yes, the call for austerity after the 2008 bailouts is rather ironic, isn't it?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 06:05 | 1160844 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

It is wrong for banks to take money for which i worked very hard to obtain.

It is wrong for you to take my hard earned money too.

Entitlements have to go.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 07:15 | 1160895 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

How did you like your free K-12 education?  My property taxes paid for it.  Time for you to ante up.

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:57 | 1161575 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

When the corrupt rules worked for you, that was okay. Now you're getting hung out to dry and the corrupt rules are wrong?

Tue, 04/12/2011 - 10:46 | 1161535 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

It's not the fraud, it's the entitlements?

Warms my heart to read comment after comment exposing these criminals.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!