The Lost Cause That Is Tax Repatriation, Or The Folly Of The Homeland Investment Act Part 2

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Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:35 | 1389895 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Yet that will not stop big multinational companies from lobbying for this one time gift which will allows management teams to buy back shares, and lock in individual profits on their insider holdings (certainly expect an unseen wave of insider selling in the aftermath of a HIA 2 should one be implemented).

EXACTLY!  Thus giving equally poor treatment to employees and shareholders, alike.  This insider selling matched with corporate buyback announcement is yet another kleptocratic scam.

"Operation Shareholder Bagholder"

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:49 | 1389938 mkkby
mkkby's picture

The real travesty here is how large corporations get more and more advantages over small and medium-sized businesses.  There will never be significant hiring in USSA again until that playing field is leveled.

I can guarantee where the money will go.  Mostly to management as bonuses for their "great" work in bribing officials.  A penny or two on the dollar for those cheap whore officials.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:52 | 1389945 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

If I legally had even $1.00 outside of the country and reach of the US Gov, I would never bring it back.

Let alone trillions.

US Gov: Sure bring it back we will never tax it or treat you unfairly - trust us!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:25 | 1390078 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

+535 bought and paid for thieves (maybe 534)

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:22 | 1390337 SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

I love you.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:30 | 1390099 hambone
hambone's picture

Doesn't matter what it does - only how it's perceived!!! 

Bullish so this allows talking heads to rant on another topic why DOW will see the promised land of 20k.

The fact it's another sucking wound to Amerika is off topic.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:40 | 1389908 etrader
etrader's picture

Is it the usual 3.15pm  compression spread close time on the ES ;-)

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/es-force-ramped-above-150-dma-10-points...

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:40 | 1389912 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

All Irrelevant! The US (and Global) Financial System Implosion will wipe out EVERYTHING

and EVERYONE! Only "Who he holds" physical PMs will eventually survive! Expect unimaginable suffering, total destruction, of the world as we know it! Retreat, Prepare, Insulate,  Wait IT Out! This is no silly doom and gloom! Look at what's at hand! All over toilet paper of all colors and sizes but with the same value ZERO!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:38 | 1389919 Cdad
Cdad's picture

So...you're suggesting that buying the tops in the REITs is a bad idea?

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:48 | 1389946 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

Cdad,

I am no "all knowing Eye", for sure "we who we know" can still make a boat load on the way down, up again and down again, what I am trying to say is, the inevitable WILL happen and there is no point in playing these bastards' hand! You can buy any investment you want, in the end all that matter will be HARD ASSETS! Nothing Else!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:48 | 1389935 topcallingtroll
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We dont need temporary tax repatriation.

We need to permanently lower corporate tax rates so we no longer have some of the highest rates in the world.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:51 | 1389944 Robslob
Robslob's picture

TCT...funny.

Corporations don't pay tax now...the "rate" is immaterial when you don't pay.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:07 | 1389998 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

You think just because a company originated over here and trades on a usa stock exchange that it is somehow an "american" company. Most of these companies are structured so that they may be majority foreign domiciled, the important parts at least. Equalizing tax rates would reduce the incentive for these companies to create complex structures and move important operations overseas.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:22 | 1390066 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

but the cost of labor is still cheaper overseas. So what do you suggest we do to accommodate corporate needs for bigger and bigger profits? Should we lower the wages here to compete with India? How nice huh? I can just see the joy in the faces of American manufacturing workers earning .45 per hour and paying 35% tax on that. That's gonna make for a wildly happy home come dinner time.

"Honey, I'm home...what's for dinner?"

"I baked the dog!"

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:30 | 1390100 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Labor is cheaper overseas, but we dont need to further incentivise corporate emigration by making capital costs and tax burdens look more enticing overseas also.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:01 | 1390226 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

You are just playing right into the corporate shell game. You can't please them and you cannot appeal to their sense of "patriotism" or "nationalism".

If you lower the tax rate, they'll complain about the wages. If you lower the wages, they'll complain about the benefits. If you eliminate the benefits, they'll complain about people not working weekends or holidays.

It never ends. What needs to be done to to cease protecting them. If you want to open your factory in India or Mexico or Brazil or Pakistan...FINE. Do it...but if you wake up one day and learn that the government has changed their mind and have decided to nationalize your company...DO NOT come crying to America to get you your company back.

The problem is that they enjoy all the protections and political benefits of being an American company, without paying the toll for that access. I call bullshit on that. If you want the protection, pay the fuckin vig baby.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:22 | 1390324 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

It appears that the vig is too high for most of these corporations. They seem willing to take their chances!

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 09:22 | 1391389 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

It's not the cost of labor that is prohibitive to establishing manufacturing in the US, especially with high transportation costs, it the regulatory and litigation burden and overhead that makes the US uncompetitive. 

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:23 | 1390068 wisefool
wisefool's picture

You mean Al Gore was is truly for the working man in america and was exploring the spiritual aspects of Bhuddism?

http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=al_gore_and_the_temple_of_doom

Why the left/progressives support these Democrat Poli's is dumber (in my mind) than the people supporing the "republican right" because they think some day they will be rich too.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:28 | 1390089 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Have you ever spoken to the religious lefties?  They can laugh at the moron righties all they want but they are worse.  I can point out a whole $hitload of examples just from my own personal experience.  They make the flag waving, god spewing rednecks look downright brilliant.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:00 | 1389963 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Corporate tax rates are just like SEC rules...they ONLY apply to the little guy. To think otherwise is naive.

The comment: "We need to permanently lower corporate tax rates so we no longer have some of the highest rates in the world." is pure regurgitation of CNBC bullshit.

The biggest corporations in the world pay little to no taxes.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:09 | 1390015 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Because they are foreign domiciled in part and pay the lower foreign rates instead.

These big corporations are really no longer usa companies as they are currently structured.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:16 | 1390044 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Sell crazy somewhere else, I'm all stocked up.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:27 | 1390104 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

?? you think he's wrong? Which "American" corporations do you know of that pay no taxes? The biggest corps today are multinational. If the US wants to 'win' the tax arbitrage game, the US needs to compete. Same with every other kind of arbitrage - labor, real estate, regulations, currency value and stability, etc.

We've effectively exported jobs and inflation with our monetary and fiscal policies, it only stands to reason taxes would get exported too.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:50 | 1390199 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

"Over 100 companies on the S&P500 paid less than 20 percent in taxes, according to a study by Capital IQ and the NYT. That's not even counting 37 companies like Citigroup and AIG that received more in tax credits than they paid. All this thanks to loopholes in the immensely complicated tax code."

#16 Red Hat, Inc. (RHT)
Pre-tax income: $463 million

Taxes paid: $21 million

Tax rate: 4.62%

#15 Boeing Co. (BA)

Pre-tax income: $17,587 million

Taxes paid: $796 million

Tax rate: 4.46%

#14 Amazon.com (AMZN)

Pre-tax income: $3,512 million

Taxes paid: $152 million

Tax rate: 4.33%

#13 Broadcom Corp. (BRCM)

Pre-tax income: $1,228 million

Taxes paid: $41 million

Tax rate: 3.32%

#12 Host Hotels & Resorts Inc. (HST)

Pre-tax income: $1,116 million

Taxes paid: $34 million

Tax rate: 3.05%

#11 NRG Energy, Inc. (NRG)

Pre-tax income: $5,343 million

Taxes paid: $154 million

Tax rate: 2.88%

#10 TECO Energy, Inc. (TE)

Pre-tax income: $1,620 million

Taxes paid: $37 million

Tax rate: 2.31%

#9 Allegheny Energy Inc. (AYE)

Pre-tax income: $2,538 million

Taxes paid: $58 million

Tax rate: 2.28%

#8 NVIDIA Corporation (NVDA)

Pre-tax income: $1,817 million

Taxes paid: $41 million

Tax rate: 2.24%

#7 Xcel Energy (XEL)

Pre-tax income: $4,334 million

Taxes paid: $77 million

Tax rate: 1.78%

#6 NextEra Energy, Inc. (XEL)

Pre-tax income: $8,572 million

Taxes paid: $149 million

Tax rate: 1.74%

#5 Plum Creek Timber Co. Inc. (PCL

Pre-tax income: $1,355 million

Taxes paid: $22 million

Tax rate: 1.62%

#4 Western Digital Corp. (WDC)

Pre-tax income: $2,507 million

Taxes paid: $40 million

Tax rate: 1.6%

#3 HCP, Inc. (HCP)

Pre-tax income: $614 million

Taxes paid: $9 million

Tax rate: 1.42%

#2 Carnival Corporation (CCL

Pre-tax income: $11,250 million

Taxes paid: $126 million

Tax rate: 1.12%

#1 Range Resource Corporation (RRC

Pre-tax income: $1,228 million

Taxes paid: $7 million

Tax rate: 0.53%

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/16-more-profitable-companies-that-pay-alm...

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:18 | 1390314 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I wonder how many of them use the irish plan and are structured with an ireland pass thru or subsidiary of an irish corporation?

If i really understood the complex multinational structures i would not be sitting here seeing government funded patients today. I would be a multimillionaire on a yacht with my.crew of hot ukranian bimbos and nurses.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:32 | 1390357 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I know not what voodoo they do...I only know this: they pay less taxes (on a percentage basis) than a kid working at MacDonalds...yet they feel they pay too much.

In the olden times...that was called "Just plain fucking greedy".

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:50 | 1390444 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

I'm against taxes, especially when they're used for unconstitutional things. I'm all for default and reset, with extremely limited federal government going forward.

We wouldn't have to worry about tax repatriation if government spending weren't so profligate in the first place. Half of that profligacy is domestic 'welfare' programs, the other half is foreign empire building and warmongering. The federal government can go take a flying leap, as far as I'm concerned.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:51 | 1390483 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

That said, I'm also against corporate 'welfare'.

I just don't think the way out is to tax more; it's to spend less. And neither way is going to prove sustainable enough to actually get us 'out', in my opinion. Hence I believe some kind of default/reset event is almost inevitable.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 18:51 | 1390651 wisefool
wisefool's picture

That is the double-fuck-you of this situation. I am ok with the "don't concern yourself, with the rich mans gold (or how he spends it)"

But corporations don't pay taxes, they dont have a conscious to be offended about how the taxes are spent.

Workers pay taxes, they do have a conscious, and their tax money is what is used for things they might morally disagree with.

Foobar.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:33 | 1390113 yakmerchant
yakmerchant's picture

Then please do explain why the little corporations do pay higher rates than the GE's of the world (outside of the fact that Immelt is constantly blowing Obama).   And please explain how double taxation serves as anything other than a way for our government to pick winners and losers?

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:36 | 1390151 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

The little corporations pay higher rates because it is not cost effective to hire an army of accountants and tax experts and create complex international corporate structures.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 23:07 | 1390902 johnnynaps
johnnynaps's picture

It's called Lobbying! Some rich, smooth talking prick sucks off a Senator or 2 and throws them a monetary bone. Not to mention, Big business runs this shitty country anymore. I'm still not sure why we even have elections. But, after hearing the Congressman from Georgia talk about how he is worried Guam will capsize if we put a base there, one thing is certain. There should be a competency exam for all elected officials as opposed to the $10k they must put up to run!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:02 | 1389980 wisefool
wisefool's picture

We can lower rates if we eliminate 90% of loopholes and deductions. We need to employ all tax professionals on the transition plan and stop training new ones. Do not even present it as an option in university curriculums.

If TPTB want analytical kids to take STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) curriculums in college, do not set up a system where tax accounts/lawyers make more money on the first day of work at G.E. than an engineer does. With the relative risk being that if the tax jockey screws up, they get fired. if the engineer screws up people could die.

MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell (the only grown up on that network) threw his relative support behind Ron Paul in the Republican nomination, based on Dr. Paul's position on gay marriage (government should honor any contract between individuals) But dont descriminate based on the oldest tax loophole of all time, first well intended step on the road to central planning hell.

Let religion/culture/family promote/subsidize choices as they see fit. Let media and technology shape the market for currently subsidized goods. This is not 1925 where a farmer in nebraska has no way to understand that research must be performed in large scale water treatment for urban areas. And vica versa.

Internets!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:32 | 1390110 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

We definitely have a screwed up system which virtually forces capital misallocation.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 23:00 | 1390896 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I just fired off a copy/paste of this article to Kudlow.  He's all for this repatriation.

Fat lotta good it'll do.

Here is his email:  kudlow@cnbc.com

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:50 | 1389942 Robslob
Robslob's picture

This is EXACTLY why those Tax Repatriations will be passed:

1) More layoffs

2) Not stimulate the economy

3) Buy back shares, lock in insiders profits

4) end up in pockets of insider sales

Sweet...just not for America.

 

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:55 | 1389955 The Axe
The Axe's picture

Market acts like pigmen know something that is not public yet...very strong the momo men are

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:56 | 1389957 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Tax Repatriations should be targeted to real estate. Not reits but the stressed real estate markets. If you buy a distressed or foreclosed property then you can bring the money back in tax free. This would help to put a floor in the real estate market. Otherwise I really don't see it solving any particular problem.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:14 | 1390031 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Great.

Lets keep adding more rules to the tax code.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:16 | 1390056 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

So as long as it keeps the ridiculous housing bubble propped up it is okay?  I think you win for the day's stupidest idea and in this day and age that is pretty hard to do. 

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 20:01 | 1390780 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The only thing that will fix housing is to let the market forces work. It will eventually find it's equilibrium. All these patches do is prolong the agony. The sooner they pull off the band aid the better off we will be.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:01 | 1389977 Sambo
Sambo's picture

Small businesses & entrepreneurs need to be encouraged, else no recovery.

Read "Small is beautiful" by Schumacher.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:17 | 1390062 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Can you lend that to my wife?  I keep trying to tell her.

How much clearer can it be that corporations, by their very nature, are sociopathic destructive entities?  No wonder our sociopaths in charge love them so much.  It is a match made in Hades that works great for all of the devils.

 

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:07 | 1390000 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

the rumors are of "much larger discussions" in that arena.  just "speculation" of course. 

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:07 | 1390002 youngman
youngman's picture

I do not think they will bring it back..why...the future is outside the USA...they need the cash to buy their new HQ´s when they leave the USA...why invest here..for the higher taxes..healthcare..regulations...enviro rules..stupid students..

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:19 | 1390055 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

That is correct.

Considering how the united states micromanages and abuses private capital a corporation would be stupid to repatriate cash to the usa for long term capital projects.

Without major long term tax reform and SENSIBLE health care reform corporations will use any tax holidays for self enrichment of management and stock buybacks.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 21:03 | 1390829 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

Good.Fucking.Riddance.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:13 | 1390048 narnia
narnia's picture

Taking more money out of the private sector & giving it to the public sector certainly won't help us, either.  What will $300 billion get us, less deficit spending on a land war in Libya & God knows where next?  

I say 100% tax free provided it (1) funds a pension system or (2) corresponds to an ESOP stock purchase.  

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:24 | 1390074 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Great.

Lets add more rules and regulations to the tax code.

Even supposed Hayek loving zero hedgers are guilty of the fatal conceit.

"Big complex government can work. Just let me give it a try."

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