This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Major Gold Takedown To Inspire "Risk On" During Another Bad News Day
Another day, another $15 gold takedown in a manner of seconds. Liquidations or LBMA intervention, nobody cares anymore. Presumably the agenda of the day is to make investors believe that all is well in Europe, and that among all the upcoming stress test results announcements, the "fact" that a single bank will not be in need of rescuing will be palatable. Of course, this is laughable, and as we discussed yesterday, the bloodbath that will be the Spanish cajas is only starting to be appreciated. But in the meantime, the old-school short covering inspired rally is on full blast. Today downticks are forbidden as China is now perfectly ok. Cause Australia said so. In the meantime, please ignore the short bald guys behind the scenes buying up insolvent government bonds and further diluting the pieces of paper in your wallet.
»
- 10977 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
And you guys thought it was easy for GS to have a perfect quarter. :)
Been saying gold's gonna drop to 3 digits. Told ya so. Y'all owe me a dollar.
ha!
Hey JB, I wrote a little ditty for ya. You know the tune, it's been playing since 1913:
Head and shoulders DXY, doo dah, doo dah, Head and shoulders DXY, all the doo dah day.
Gonna fall all night, gonna fall all day. Clamp down coming for the greenback longs, yes indeed it may.
And from all of his bragging I thought JB was supposed to be a TA guy. So how'd he miss an indicator as brutally obvious (and with such obviously brutal potential) as this? Hmm, I wonder if it has anything to do with his focus, or vision, or lack of both?
Regards
Gold's TA has a very bearish downtrend to it. Lets see what happens at around ~1100
The gold bubble is growing unstable. Technically it's overvalued, and now that we are in the midst of a deflationary collapse, it is a very risky place to have one's assets. God speed cultists.
Bullshit
Nope; he is right; adjusted for 10Y spread gold should be at about 950.
You mean the last 10 years of fantasy accounting? That's recorded more massive large scale accounting fraud than humanity has ever seen. Those 10 years?
They have to smash gold to drive people into equities. This month will see hedge funds explode, states explode, countries explode but gold won't dive to an abyss because control has been lost. It's 1931 again. There's no real daily weekly monthly POG data for that period but you can get enough data to see what happens when monopoly money doesn't do it for ya any more.
Hep, '
Right on............but, I do not see folks falling for the OLD EQUITIES shit YET again.
After TWO double shot losses of 20%, in less than 15yrs......thanks, but no thanks.
The next leg down could be 60%, or it could be this........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGJemzP7u5s
Well if you had to turn it into a text based video game it would go like this.
You're a hot chick trapped in a room with 3 rapists. What do you do?
F1 Raise interest rates.
F2 Smash Gold.
F3 Create a Diversion
It doesn't matter what they do. Bernanke sees the raising of interest rates as the mistake that created the 2nd crash. It was a ploy to keep capital from fleeing america as europe fell off the cliff. Raising interest rates was going to keep make people keep those accounts. He doesn't understand the situation. You're fucked no matter what you do. If the check is not in the mail. The Male is in the Czech. Humanity is going to get raped. And it's all the bankers fault and there's nothing they can do till the pain is severe enough to hit F3 and start a huge war.
10Y = The yield on 10Y Treasury note; not time period of 10 past years.
Since when do fiat treasuries determine the price of Gold. Get outta here.
You are so mindbogglingly stupid; its un-fucking-believable. Its easy to talk shit from the sidelines about the "system" but for people who actually do this for a living the correlation between the treasury note yields and gold is an important one. Fuck off n00b and learn some respect. You might not like how "things" work [not that you know how "things" work]; but you can not change them; nor will YOU be ever able to change them.
At the risk of incurring your ire:
CB, surely you're not saying you've been short gold since May'09? If you have been, man, I hope you weren't leveraged...
Paul Van Eeden called, he wants his TA back.
K, I was only half kidding here.
What is this I see? Cheeky has more junks than JB? That just ain't right. At least the Bastard has some brain behind his suppositions. You Gold-bugs are left-clicking the wrong guy; make amends.
Cheeky its the treasuries that are in bubble.
Boy, I'll say they are. This anti gold propaganda really gets old. CB is a very sharp dude, but $950 for gold isn't even halfway to a REAL inflation adjusted new high. I have no idea what kind of bullshit numbers are used to make such claims when people say gold is "in a bubble".
As compared to what?
The last time it was irrationally and grossly overvalued?
"As compared to what?
The last time it was irrationally and grossly overvalued?"
JB, you must be talking about the real reason Nixon had to reneg on the pseudo 'gold standard' for the USD in 1971. Then, in 1980, the hocus pocus really kicked in, CPI was egregiously manipulated to indicate zero inflation regardless of reality (and all charts ever since have all been fallaciously plotted as if the function's variables remained the same), in 2000 Clinton tweaked CPI even more, in the early new millenium Gordon's Brown Bottom bilked UK citizens out of billions of fiat in the most obvious yet successful PM manipulation gambit outside of the IMF's 'sales' or comex naked shorts, and since then Gold has been punishing all fiats like the worthless bits of paper they really are despite all the daily attempts of price delusion. Thanks for coming out.
Regards
Of the CNBC-type bulls we see everyday, you gold bulls are the worst to argue with.
CBs gold @ 950 statement was solely based on the relative price of what the 10Y is yielding. Look the at the 30s too... think gold moved in tandem with that??
Itd be foolish to say gold should be at $5000/$100000/whatever which are 'out of the hat' #s.. im simply talking technical analysis and i believe CB was talking correlations to USTs
Hi Cheeky, I'm a n00b but want to learn. How do you get that $950 gold price from the yield on the 10Y Treasury notes?
10 year treasury notes are set for 1931 to 1941. Only problem is the HFT pumped market never deflated enough and housing never deflated enough and wages are only dropping for furloughed city workers and government workers.
Adjusted for reality, GLD should be at zero, and physical gold should be north of $10,000
But then, we all live in Fantasyland, so who knows?
"But then, we all live in Fantasyland, so who knows?"
"Adjusted for reality, GLD should be at zero, and physical gold should be north of $10,000"
"But then, we all live in Fantasyland, so who knows?"
Indeed.
Tits! I for one drool over the prospect of $950 gold! Come on JPM, bring that cheap gold to papa!
How long have I been saying it will happen?
All a y'all have just been like "naw, buy at 1250, cup and handle, cup and handle!"
Interesting:
The DXY looks all gulliver and pletchoes to me.
Hey Johnny Bravo, you're a self purported TA guy, watcha think? I mean every time you find some minor indicator on the USD/Au chart you can magnify to look even remotely bearish you're 'creeching "TOP" repeatedly in all caps, so how have you missed this one? I mean it's not like this DXY H&S is at all subtle; indeed it's as plain as the ass on your head.
Regards
Every single POS knows exactly where financial markets will be tomorrow and what supposed to be the "fair" gold.
The only question I am asking myself: When will FED and ECB lose their ability to "orderly" debase US$ and euro currencies and the natural process of runaway inflation takes over?
i'm with cheeky and i was gold buyer at generational low of $250 in 1999. all that matters to fed/treasury is bond sales. equities are less than roach shit.
to introduce more stimulus, at this point, fed must first create conditional programming sequence. that means, to go nuclear with QE-2, market must devastate pricing of basic materials/precious metals, equities.
once those asset values are 'neutralized' QE-2 will be seen as reasonable, responsible, and even, necessary.
oh, and by the way, while global markets allegedly move in concert, they can also be in terminal conflict. this is economic warfare with a beggar thy neighbor mission statement.
think the china growth story/commodities.
"you can do it all right and get it all wrong, it felt so right, i can't believe it, all of the mistakes that went on for so long, i wish we could delete them".
it's a zero sum game, dawg and t's the markets current reality: a fraudulent claim on assets.
it's what derivatives are for and how the gang-banksters get it done ............
deleted by poster
Whiz,
And in what would you put yours in?.
Fiat?. 30yr Treasuries,,,,,,,,,,
Paperbugs are the real "cultists".
Creat a logarithmic chart of Dow divided by gold price since the 1920s and tell me what you see.
Doesn't fucking matter. Purchasing power of Au is better than DJIA. Even in deflation it will stay above equities in purchasing power.
Cultists? We're 6,000 years on now. How long have (in)"equities" been around? Basically from the Tulip craze til now.
If 1179 doesn't get ya. 1150 will. If 1150 doesn't get ya. 1120 will.
Not sure what you mean by "get ya". Most gold bugs have been gold bugs for a long time. My personal cost basis is between $700 and 800. I'm not buying gold right now, as I prefer silver. If silver tracks gold down, I will definitely be buying more. Anything south of $50 is a Godsend there.
Silver is the where the real action will be, imho, when it does all kick off. But that could be some time away. Still, no harm in picking some up on the way down in preparation of the real fireworks to come.
LOL. You were "backing up the truck" at 1245 before the "cup and handle" broke higher.
I agree, I think over time, we may go a fair amount lower. I am not a gold detractor, by the way, I still think its time is coming, but for a strategic trade, I think it might be better to be out of it.
All IMHO etc
For starters, if Gold hits 1100 I'll be buying a whole lot more physical....
Why does it even matter.
Everything is manipulated.
Its all bullshit.
Physical is the only thing to hold. Ask any Russian what they would do when they realized their government was manipulating the news and pumping out positive propaganda about their economy day in and day out.
Russians had empty cupboards, couldn't get any goods because their money was worthless but their government told them the central planning economy was working overtime and producing record outputs.
This is where America is headed.
Difference is this time there is no other paper money option for anyone to hold. All paper will be diluted. The Russians horded Dollars and Deutschmarks to have something that would keep its value. Think about what will hold value when all paper money is going up in smoke.
Propaganda is a powerful tool until the people stop believing the lies and just carry on with their lives, becoming independent, becoming informed and waiting IT out. The event that will eventually strike. It's inevitable.
You might have a 20,000 DJI, a gold price of 2,000 and 8% official unemployment. All things are quite rosy looking but you know, your friends know, your family knows that it is all fake. It's not a matter of suspecting that something just doesn't add up, it's KNOWING it.
Like I said. Speak to any Russian that's old enough to remember how 40 years of government lies, manipulation and propaganda felt.
Yes...and physical is the only way that the Crimex will be broken.
walküre
Russians had empty cupboards, couldn't get any goods because their money was worthless"
So they ate their Gold?
Someone pointed out on a survival blog you don't want to be the guy nown for trading using Gold or Silver. It makes you a target.
Toilet paper, bags of grain, books, feminine hygeine products, canned goods all have more value in a crisis.
Gold is ONLY good when converted to currency that you use to purchase goods.
Or in video games.
You're missing my point.
Russians horded Dollars and Deutschemarks which became a form of payment on anything that was better than made out of cardboard including food.
The black market for all kinds of goods in former Soviet Russia was huge. All you needed were hard currency.
Today we are at the precipice of the devaluation of all known so called hard currencies.
When, not if, the shit hits the fan there will be a market where you get goods for gold. You may be able to get wheelbarrows of cash for your gold at the last bank standing, but by the time you leave the bank, your stash in the wheelbarrow has lost another 50% of its value.
Numbers don't lie. The debt is too huge, it can never be repaid and it cannot be serviced much longer.
walküre
http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2010/07/july-3-2010-dollar-denomin...
One particular risk is the reissuing of currency. Russia did this during the economic collapse of the Soviet Union, and made it so difficult for ordinary people to convert old currency into new that much of the middle class lost their life-savings. In Russia trust in relation to banks was not particularly high, hence there was a lot of money under the beds of the nation that the powers-that-be were attempting to flush out. That is not the case in present day industrialized countries, where people generally believe that banks are safe and deposits are publicly guaranteed in any case.
On top of that, few people have savings, having become dependent on access to cheap credit for their rainy-day funds. There is virtually nothing under the beds of the Western nation, and so essentially nothing to flush out.
Although that particular rationale for currency reissue does not really exist (the flushing out of hidden wealth), there may be other reasons for doing so, and these will be locational. The risk of currency reissue in the US is likely to be low for some time. The US is likely to benefit from capital flight from other places, on a knee-jerk flight to safety.
In addition, dollar-denominated debt deflation will increase demand for dollars, and hence increase their value. This should reduce pressure for any kind of radical currency reform for a while. If the US does eventually reissue its currency, I would imagine them doing so in order to deprive foreign holders of dollars of purchasing power. There are very large numbers of dollars held overseas, and these would not be able to be exchanged in a currency reissue. At some point this may serve the interests of the US, but not soon.
The situation in Europe is far more complex, and the risk is likely to vary between European countries. The reason is that the euro is less of a single currency than it is a strong currency peg. Whereas in the US the primary loyalty is to the political unit that issues the currency, in Europe the primary loyalty is to a lower level political unit. Currency values are grounded in relationships of trust, and the disparity between primary loyalty and currency control suggests that this essential component is weak in Europe. Where trust is weak, common currencies are also weak and my have a limited lifespan.
"When, not if, the shit hits the fan there will be a market where you get goods for gold."
It already exists. I'm planning on buying some health and mana potions later today and maybe upgrading my armor.
Currency is a promise by the issuer of the paper or coin.
I promise, I will buy these dips - in gold - and hold - and add.
My children and their children will benefit.
walküre
Your children only benefit when they sell your Gold. If they sell it for less than you invested, then their is a loss. If they trade it for crack even a greater loss.
You made two fale assumptions, first is todays relative value of an item will be tommorrows. The second is your progeny have the same expertise or interest which you do. There is an implied third that when the wealth requires to be exchanged that their need will never be greater than whatever value the goods hold.
The price of gold may come down but the gold trade will not crash.
Try and get some at these prices.
There's a fundamental difference between the buyers and holders of gold vs. the buyers and holders of equities.
Once the gold buyers have the metal in their posession, they are more likely to keep it than the paper share certificate of a company that may not exist at the end of the year.
You haven't seen anything yet.
fail troll is fail. that was quite a stretch. even for Gully Foyle.
amen
"The US is likely to benefit from capital flight from other places, on a knee-jerk flight to safety."
Haha, Gully still thinks the year is 2008. Good luck with that.
Regards
GoinFawr
Automatic Earth is just as relevant as any other Economic site. Probably more so in some cases.
Try expanding your horizons. The more varied information and ideas you encounter the more you learn
Gully - gold is long term to preserve wealth. If you don't have enough wealth to store it in gold you really don't (well you really do) have anything to worry about with regard to gold. There is a time for TP and a time for Gold, and a time for FRN.
pan-the-ist
"gold is long term to preserve wealth"
I frequently repost this
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2009/12/gold-ultimate-wealth-reserve.html
Endurable Wealth Assets
Real Estate
Fine Art
Antiques
Collectibles
Gold
Other Precious Metals
Gemstones
Rare Classic Cars
The problem is too many people here are confusing Gold with Currency.
http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2010/07/july-3-2010-dollar-denomin...
Stoneleigh: Since we at The Automatic Earth generally tell people to hold cash or cash equivalents, it makes sense to expand on that a little, and to point out some of the location-specific risks of doing so. We tell people to hold cash because that is what they will need access to in order to make debt payments and to purchase the essentials of life in a society with little or no remaining credit. The value of cash domestically - in terms of goods and services in your own local area - is what matters most.
Domestic currency value relative to other currencies internationally will be very much a secondary concern for most people, as the ability to exchange one currency for another is not likely to last far into the coming era of capital controls. Currency risk is likely to become very large, and almost everyone will be better off holding whatever passes for cash wherever they happen to be.
As the price of goods and services fall, thanks to the destruction of purchasing power brought about by collapsing money supply, what cash you still have will go a lot further in terms of, say, milk and bread. Capital preserved as liquidity will go a long way. However, there are no no-risk scenarios. Apart from the obvious risks of fire, flood and theft, other risks to holding cash will grow over time. Liquidity can be as hard to hold on to as it sounds.
I've read people posting their advice after surviving various collapses both economic and societal. Nearly all claim that Gold was virtually useless in their day to day existence. Goods or foriegn currency were easier to trade for necessities.
Even holding Gold for later conversion to currency assumes that the price you purchased Gold for will always be greater than the price you trade it for. Which may not be the case.
Land for example would maintain a higher value because you could always farm it. Then you have a seasonal income and a source of food for your self. Or you could rent it out for someone else to farm, again benefiting.
Gold is the preferred medium of merchants. Land of people who produce, like farmers and herdsmen.
So many fallacies here:
Get out of debt and buy storable food, etc now while you still can with your soon-to-be-worthless doelarrs.
Uh, duh. So if cash = zero you will obviously need to barter the necessities you have, period. Or gold and silver, of course. Or, why barter your necessities at all. Why not avoid the fray altogether! Why don't people consider that option! People are crawling around in the dark, "Why me! Why me!", and you think its a good idea to ask them if they have anything of value they want to give up! It might be 2-3 years before the die-off stabalizes! Until then the majority of your PMs should be in a safe, quiet, anonymous hole in the ground.
I still haven't really learned anything from this guy.
Because people want to barter for necessities; they are hungry, cold, and sick don't even care about tomorrow until they are fed, warm, and well-rested. People that have plenty of necessities will be glad to take your PMs. You don't really want to barter with people that are desperate anyway. They have a tendency to make demands; later planning to take what they think they deserve from evil "hoarders" that thought ahead and prepared for disaster.
Well, if you have a fist full of hyperinflated dollars you'll wish you had gold instead. You can't start a fire in your stove with goled! (where's Johnny "canned ham" Bravo?)
Not if you have to evacuate or your animals are shot/stolen/eaten by predators. Yes we know there are no guarantees. Being in debt and holding cash is what is very unwise. Having PMs without a storable food supply is even more unwise. If you don't already have a rifle, food, and portable shelter you can consider at high risk, with or without PMs.
Ah, yes. Thanks for the moral lesson. Gully, you mentioned being a target for trading in PMs. Maybe you should carefully consider your trading partners and their trustworthiness first.
Gully,
Problem with bags of grain, TP, etc. is limited shelf life, and low density value. Might make sense to keep your cupboard full, and extra in attic and garage, but not enough storage space to preserve much wealth.
On not being known as the person who trades for PM. Well, sort of depends on who you trade with, which is why now is a good time to develop a trusted network of people who have useful skills and preservable wealth.
Rebel
"Problem with bags of grain, TP, etc. is limited shelf life, and low density value."
But they are far safer as trade items.
If you are discussing any type of collapse you don't want to be the person marked as having some type of wealth.
You become a target.
It doesn't matter how many guns you own If I burn your house and sift through the ashes for your Gold.
Look into feudal societies and see just how they hid their excess from the taxman or their lords. The poor always needed to look poorer than they were other wise they became examples against skimming from the system. I remember something about peasants in Europe using Doves to skim single grains at a time.
Gully,
Could you share more details on specifically what you have done/what you are doing. Is this a hypothetical argument, or one based on actions you are taking. How many bags of grain and rolls of TP do you have? Have you yet been able to trade TP for anything useful?
The Mad Max scenario that you describe will likely not play out in many rural areas in the heartland. It will be more likely that a person will knock on your door and offer to sell you a load of firewood, than burn your house down.
In rural communities, neighbors watch out for each other, keep an eye out for and on strangers, and have always tended towards being self sufficient.
Again, the trouble with your TP argument is that you can not preserve wealth with TP. The shelf life is not long enough, and it would cost more to build storage for it than it is worth. Sure, I keep the cupboard full, but do not see it as a means of preserving wealth or an item of future barter.
Rebel
"Could you share more details on specifically what you have done/what you are doing"
Land and bulk and skills.
"In rural communities, neighbors watch out for each other, keep an eye out for and on strangers, and have always tended towards being self sufficient."
I partially agree. Most communities know who the criminals are but rarely act. I recall some town where the bully was eventually publicly executed, shot, and no one stepped forward to identify the killer. But as a rule communities tend to "keep to themselves".
"Again, the trouble with your TP argument is that you can not preserve wealth with TP."
Not the point. TP acts as a trade good. Gold ONLY preserves wealth when it trades for MORE than you paid for it. Any item has that same limitation. If it trades for LESS then you have lost value.
Gully,
If you put a pin in the map, and draw a circle of 20 mile radius around my house, in the last 365 days there has not been a single armed robbery. Well, there was one case where a person went into a store with a gun and demanded money. Concerned citizen who was carrying dispatched him promptly in a permanent manner. Citizen got some sort of accommodation for his actions. I wont count that as an armed robbery, as the robbery did not have a chance to fully consummate.
http://www.harrymaclean.com/harry-maclean-in-broad-daylight.php
Gully,
"Gold ONLY preserves wealth when it trades for MORE than you paid for it. Any item has that same limitation. If it trades for LESS then you have lost value."
Not when what you used to acquire the Gold is worthless.
IT still(may have lost value compared to OLD fiat std's), but it holds value.(what you bought it with would be worth ZERO.)
Just like the commodities you espouse............and you don't think the mongol hordes will not burn, and pillage your ass too?.
Anything, of use, or value, for barter, sustenance is going to be attacked..................IF the SHTF.
Also, staples, Tp, etc, have shelf lifes, and you have to keep vermin away from it all...............no easy task.
Hey, feel free to be poor if you think that makes you safe. More than likely, it will lead to someone stealing all of your supplies, leaving you with nothing. If people are going to steal from someone with a bit of gold or silver, what makes you think they aren't going to steal from someone wheeling around a cartload of grain?
The homeless experience more theft than any other group. Being poor isn't going to make you any less of a target--it will probably have the opposite effect. Instead, if you are concerned about theft, have a couple of strapping young lads if not grizzled veterans with assault rifles slung on their backs accompany you to market. You probably have some in your family, or among the family of your friends. Carry a rifle yourself as well. Odds are, no-one will fuck with you. If they do, leaving a few dead bodies in the street will serve as a nice warning to anyone else who tries to fuck with you.
Rebel, Gully's problem is he is confusing Gold with Commodities.
(RE:"The problem is too many people here are confusing Gold with Currency.")
Regards
GoinFawr
No. When Gold is mentioned as being traded for goods it is a currency.
That is what is being discussed.
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2009/12/gold-ultimate-wealth-reserve.html
What is the main difference between a commodity and a currency? Consumption! A currency circulates through the economy as a medium of exchange but is not consumed. A commodity is a useful basic economic good that is produced, traded in common units and prices all over the world, and then consumed by industry or individuals.
...
And what is the difference between a currency and a wealth asset? Time and appreciation! The main difference is the amount of time that each is held. A currency is earned and spent in a short timeframe and wealth assets are accumulated and held for longer timeframes.
Gully, your comments read like a serpent eating its tail. I recommend Logic 101 and an epistemology course for good measure.
Regards
GoinFawr
I keep that in mind after you finish the sixth grade reading exam.
By the way, a serpent eating it's tail is an Ouroborous.
Nice. Brave of you Gully; it takes a big man to admit he is only capable of writing at the level of a 12 year old. I'll keep that in mind whenever I respond...
Well...I like your posts Gully, but you shouldn't criticize someone's literacy if you don't know the difference between its (possessive) and it's (it is).
"Someone pointed out on a survival blog you don't want to be the guy nown for trading using Gold or Silver. It makes you a target.
Toilet paper, bags of grain, books, feminine hygeine products, canned goods all have more value in a crisis."
So wouldn't holding toilet paper and food make you even more of a target?
Why do people keep bringing up the "you can't eat gold" non argument?
Womb Service
"So wouldn't holding toilet paper and food make you even more of a target"
Try this experiment, go to a shady neighborhood and flash a handful of Gold coins or cash.
After the fear wears off from the rapidity of having your money stolen, go back and flash a bag of TP.
I bet you can walk home with far less fear.
"Try this experiment, go to a shady neighborhood and flash a handful of Gold coins or cash"
Ahah! So, you admit gold is a currency after all.
Nice 180.
Regards
GoinFawr
"Ahah! So, you admit gold is a currency after all."
In the video games I played it is. In Fallout Bottlecaps are the currency.
Gold is also a currency at your local farmer's market. And at the corner store with a saavy owner. Sure, the corporately owned 'Food Flood' clerks might not know your 'specie' from your FIAT, but who here is surprised by that?
In Vietnam all land sales are in Au, not fiat.
And I'd bet if you offered actual physical Au for that level 70 purple belt in WOW, it would take far less time to acquire. (Especially @ 300,000 pieces of WOW'gold'/real Au oz)
IE Gold is just about as liquid as any other currency you want to spend. Even more so if you consider that it can be used in absolutely any country in the world when it comes to purchasing hard assets.
Wake up, sir.
Why are you going into a shady neighborhood alone in the first place? If there is something you want to buy there, hire someone else to make the pickup if you are so afraid. Otherwise, march in there with a half dozen heavily armed men and make your trade.
Walking through a shady neighborhood penniless is probably more dangerous than doing so with some cash. When you are accosted, and you have nothing to give, you will likely be beaten and killed. If you have a shiny silver piece, they might let you go. Of course, it's better to have a shiny steel piece filled with shiny full metal jacket slugs. Why you would go anywhere without one in a post-breakdown society is beyond me.
so, you're long TP?
Physical Delivery Bitches!
I spoke to Steve Liesman, who is Russian. He said everything was hunky-dory. I think those were his words.
The joys of central planning.
Which is exactly what the US has become.
A centrally planned and manipulated economy.
Free thinking spirits and innovators MUST NOT apply.
russians are the wrong comparison because they did not have any money to save or invest. i guess they can see the same simptoms of a empire in decline and exploding.
the right comparisons are from argentina to veimar republic, the history is full of paper fiat currency going up in the air.
we are up for a new financial system ready or not...doelars are done, tosted...
nothing like a good beat down to shake all the overconfident, overleveraged or otherwise weak bulls. You all thought it is was going to the moon nonstop?
Let's see if $1,170 is tested and holds, if so, probably back to new highs.
yep, i think 1170 is the line in the sand.
i have no doubt they'd like to take that out.
BrianOFlanagan
Or it's time to fuck the peons and pop that Golden bubble.
'Golden Bubble'? Your TA needs some work there Gully.
The CBs can push the buttons all day and night long.
When investors are not coming back to the party because they feel they've been duped, they see through the manipulation or they've made a good profit in the last rally .. all those things .. then any subsequent rally attempt will be short lived.
How is that volume today?
Problem: investors don't know they're being duped because they are continuing automatic contributions to retirement mutual funds and pension funds and those funds are obliged to get the money invested. I think the source of the money must be the automatic fixed contributions with fund managers whose commissions are not on growth but amount invested.
Until the robot proles wake up and stop shoving their money into the system, they will continue to be fleeced. Ever watched how long an idiot can stand there at a fruit machine pumping coins in?
Thank you JPM!!!! Entry point! XD
SHORT BALD GUY:
http://williambanzai7.blogspot.com/2010/07/monstro.html
"take down in a matter of seconds"
Does everyone really think that this is just a result of manipulation ?
If it is then these dips kinda have to be bought daily because you could easly miss out.
Spitzer
If everything else is rigged, why wouldn't Gold be?
Keep your eye in the US buck. Plunging from 88.67 June 7th to under 84 today. The dollar rally is busted. There are many reasons, but things are not quite what they seem in Forex land these days. It takes lots of jack to save the Euro.
bernanke is short?
They are pretending the euro is safe and that the market is recovering again. Weak hands drop their gold and gold stocks and the smart money comes in.
As Tyler indicated, GOLD short position is still really high-naked or not. JP is covered by USGovernment to damage the gold price in dollars.
Also, euro was technically oversold and dollar was overbought-that's shortterm momentum. Euro was in the RSI 30's or lower.
It's all bullshit-just play the game.
Going long on gold or gold miners of pedigree is a good longterm play and the FED knows it. The doubledip is coming, so gold may wash out as FED and London Fixies pretend gold is not real money but pretend and manipulate it as a commodity only.
Institutional Advisors(Bob Hoye) indicate a puncture of the 1200 range will require a longer consolidation phase starting from a low point of 1170 or lower. Happy hunting.
Many solid junior golds are falling off, and they usually portend the price of gold in $. I would wait, let JP do the damage and come in maybe at 1140
very few miners trade in tandem with the physical.
Another low/volatility volume melt up. Tiny green bars slowly inching up. The market control of the HFT computers is amazing.
buy on the dips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdodc1Eu1nA
I am starting to see a trend.
Someone tells me they know exactly what is going on and they have profits on paper to try and prove their point, as soon as their profits on paper disappear they cry manipulation.
I had this one goldbug telling me to buy gold shares because all currencies were going to zero. I said you think those shares are going to be trading anywhere when that happens? Silence.
This is as close as you have ever come to an on-topic post. You are coming along, Mako.
You are right and wrong though. Real goldbugs don't buy paper shares and call them gold. Personally I don't buy gold for paper profits either.
Plenty of so called goldbugs, they tell me to buy shares.
I doubt most of these gold companies will exist in the not too distant future.
I had this one nutjob telling me to buy Tan Range, I said so you think all currencies are going to zero and you want me to own through shares for a company operating in Africa, with no reserves, no revenue, and really no operations for a hole in the ground that might or might not produce gold. I laughed my ass off.
I wouldn't touch the miners, or any other paper. It's quite liberating to be completely out of the paper games of bankers. And yes I know you say 'there is no out'. I just think you are wrong.
Of course, all the rats on the burning ship think there is an out.
The physical realm exists without the paper game, without a credit system, without banksters. Turn off all the machines and the physical world still works. Rats have been doing fine in it for thousands of years. Maybe rats are smarter than paper sharks.
I assure you the items from the manufacturing plants and the food from the farmers and ships back and forth from country and country will grind to a halt.
Energy is neither created nor destoryed, off course the the amount of dirt on the Earth will not change, really irrevelant.
"Maybe rats are smarter than paper sharks."
People are about as smart as bacteria in a petri dish.
I may not be able to get kobe beef, but I live in a farming area. I even grow some food myself (not enough but could be expanded). My neighbor raises some delicious-looking chickens. I would have no problem shooting and eating rabbits that attempt to pillage my garden.There are large farms nearby, and I buy lots from farmers market. If I lived in Manhattan I might worry, but I will do fine with gold, if I have to.
You might be ok for a while, eventually the problem will show up at your door.
The self-sufficient, survivalist small farmer is a silly myth. Unless you have a multi-acre farm, you cannot possibly grow enough food to feed yourself for any length of time. You and your neighbors would quickly exterminate the local rabbit/deer/squirrel population. And what makes you think the government is going to allow large farms to continue to operate independently and sell you their food directly?
Small farmers have been around since the dawn of agriculture: see 'subsistence farming'. Most farms in my area have been in families for generations. Someone must have forgot to tell them they can't make it.
I don't believe the Mako nihilistic scenario, but even if I did I would last longer than most people in cities who didn't have deer or rabbit or gardens. As for the government, I imagine they will have their hands full. Trying to confiscate food from farmers would be very problematic for them. See 'zimbabwe farm confiscation'.
There are a lot of drive by shooters here, who post grand opinions, one would assume based on what they are reading on the Wikipedia. Others are commenting based on direct experience. Yes, there are lots of family farms still around. Yes, lots of people are food self sufficient. Yes, lots of neighbors get along and work together, and will continue to work together.
What I'm referring to is a common meme on ZH, namely "When the SHTF, I will buy some farmland, grow chickens, and buy guns/ammo to defend it". My parents both grew up on a family farm and I can tell you from what they told me (unlike your wikipedia nonsense) that subsistence farming requires a broad knowledge that is gained mostly from experience. Most people are not capable of doing it. Even most large scale farms these days are so dependent on oil, natural gas, and technology that they couldn't function if they had to do it like they did in the 19th century. In short, I know a lot more about family farming than you do, Rebel, and I can tell you that the average city-type is not going to be able to grow enough food to feed himself.
Which is why Mako is right and ElvisDog wins the award for "Most Obvious Post of the Day Award".
If you aren't already doing it you are worm food.
Hmmm . . . your PARENTS grew up on a farm, and now you are an expert. I grew up on a working farm/ranch, and spent my childhood on farm chores. I moved to the city after college, and several years ago returned to the country. Respectfully, unless you are on a working farm that has been in the same family for 125 years, you do not know more than I do about farming.
EDIT
ElvisDog, my response to you above was a little harsh, and I apologize for that. In fact, I do agree with part of what you are saying. I agree that when SHTF it will be too late to move to the country. Also, I think people do not have realistic expectations about the availability of property in the country at that point. Also, there is a social dynamic among country folk. If people run to the country when SHTF, don't necessarily expect a warm welcome from the rednecks and country folks.
At the same time, if you start now, and are willing to learn, it is very feasible to support a family on not much property.
Tough Guy,
Ignore the nay-sayers, it sounds like you have a good start on things. It does not take a multi-acre farm to be self sufficient by any means. If you know what you are doing, you can more than provide for yourself and family in under an acre. Would suggest you go ahead and get your own chickens, though.
Gold is a rich mans game.
It doesn't sound like you have much of a fortune to protect, otherwise you would have better ideas.
You are looking for an out, you are running from the Truth which is why you are not going to be satisified with anything I have to say.
You're screwed but you DO NOT want to hear that.
You are so delusional.
Did it ever occur to you that the rich people of the world have agreed to use the USD dollar and the treasury market for a temporary safe haven for the last couple years.
When we get into sovereign default and currency collapse, that safe haven will go from the US dollar and treasuries to gold and gold assets.
You where wrong on the first end of the world scenario in 2008 and you will be wrong in the second end of the world scenario.
"Did it ever "occur to you that the rich people of the world have agreed to use the USD dollar and the treasury market for a temporary safe haven for the last couple years."
Rich people are going to be disappearing at a large rate going forward and bunch of middle and lower class people are going to be going bye-bye as well. There is no safe haven and there never has been.
"When we get into sovereign default and currency collapse, that safe haven will go from the US dollar and treasuries to gold and gold assets."
There is no safe haven, people in India will hacking at each other when the credit stops flowing and they have plenty of gold.
"You where wrong on the first end of the world scenario in 2008 and you will be wrong in the second end of the world scenario."
I never once predicted the end of the world in 2008, you are delusional so construct a strawman to support your delusions.
hahaha, credit in India, have you ever been to India ? Have you ever been to a 3rd world country ?
Anyway, you have no answer to the fact that the world almost came to an end in 2008 and that there clearly was a safe haven in the dollar. Also, gold only went down in the fall of 08, it went strait up after that even when all stock markets made all time lows in March 09.
No safe haven my ass
You haven't been to India in a while. Let me see you think their system and those skyscrappers they were building was by having gold in their pocket? India and China are some of the biggest gold holders so what, so was Europe during the last cycle. Whoppie do.
"Also, gold only went down in the fall of 08, it went strait up after that even when all stock markets made all time lows in March 09."
It followed just about everything else, DOW went from 6700 back up to the 11k level. You are riding the same waves as everyone else, you are just in denial that you are in fact are.
The average person in India does not owe the bank a fucking dime. They live just fine without credit.
I was not talking about the 09 rally from the march lows. I was talking about when gold went up from the low in late 2008 all the way through to the 09 rally, incase you didnt notice, stocks made new lows in early 09 and gold didn't.
When the whole system collapses, you look outside and see a 1 oz gold bar laying infront of your house, will you go pick it up ?
Is that a fly buzzing by my ear? Are monkeys aware that they are funny to humans?
answer the question
Hell yeah!
"eeeeeee..." Yep, let that baby burn. My flaming ship has docked and I've already run across the gilded painter to dry, arable land which is enabling me to accumulate more real money.
HooHooo! It's been a great decade, thanks for asking.
"eeeeeeeeeee...."
I am comfortable with holding miners with no debt.
Thus the definition of a gold mine: a big hole in the ground with a liar on top
good call...gold down again...
That's right Arius. Did you take the opportunity to load up, or waste it?
Who the fuck is crying ? most people are happy to buy the dip.
The charts are exactly the same as when the SNB was manipulating the Euro.
Oh they are crying alright. Manipulation. I mean I had this one guy telling me he did not know gold crashed in 2008, basically self-delusional denial. He is all excited when he sees gold go up in currency value, when it crashes his brain shut down.
Buy the dips sounds like what they have telling everyone for the last 65 years.
And what did gold do during the flash crash ? Up $25 when the dow had the biggest fall in history.
Stop the presses a whole $25, wow, time for retirement.
Seriously gold trades just like everything else, use of leverage.
Dow down 1000 points in 10 minutes, wow, time for retirement.
Wake up, gold used to trade along side oil, that correlation was broken a long time ago, so was the dollar up, gold down correlation.
trades like everything else, haha
So is seashells, really irrelevant.
You are throwing up a strawman to support your position. I never once said you are going to be safe buying the DOW, matter of fact those exchanges will not exist or be shutdown this time.
well what the fuck are you doing then ?
Like I said, it doesn't sound like you have much of a fortune to protect, if you did then you would have better ideas.
At least Denninger tries, (his leap calls.)
Your failure starts by assuming there an "out".
"Like I said, it doesn't sound like you have much of a fortune to protect"
Your fortune never existed, you are trying to protect something that is/was a fiction.
I agree with you that paper-based profits are a fiction, but you are wrong to ignore that real wealth exists in the physical realm.
"wealth" don't get me started there.
"Wealth" will be disappearing at a huge rate going forward in any world you care to live in.
Mako, I admire passion in people but I'm curious - you are so completely nihillistic and obviously think we are heading into a Mad Max future. How do you carry on every day? You appear to think in the future there will be no wealth, no economic activity, dogs and cats living together. I'm curious, can you elaborate on what your vision of the future will be?
Nihilism is generally its own justification; Mako believes the world needs massive population reduction. Most of the data indicates that he's got a point. I've seen some compellign counterarguments, but not without some massive structural reforms accross the entire globe, all of which seem unlikely given the actions of the powers that be. Mako sees an enormous amount of pain for the developing world and a similar experience for much of the developed world. Having monitored his posts for some time, he seems correct on several accounts. The Mad Max scenario seems a bit out of place, although the "organized" solution to world overpopulation is likely to appear much less just. Nihilism cuts the whole "justice" idea out of the debate, damning us all equally for outliving the carrying capacity of our petri dish's substrate. I contend that certain individuals in certain parts of the world will fare better than their demographically-challenged peers in other regions. Perhaps Mako does as well, although I can't profess to having observed any commentary of that nature on Mako's behalf. I appreciate his perspective, although I see it as awfully fatalistic in the context of a philosophy that would seem to contradict the notion of fatalism on its surface. We're all dead in the end, after all.
The US treasury market was an out in 2008.
what evidence do you have that there is no out ? None
2007/2008 is the very beginning of the collapse... when the whole system crumbles let me know how those treasuries work out. You are free to play musical chairs just like everyone else until there are no chairs left.
Look, you are not going to be satisified with anything I have to say, you think there an "out". Good luck with all that, someone is going to have to go.
You live in a world where gold does not exist. It makes sense that fools like you think that way because never in history has the whole world been on a fiat system at the same time.
There has never been a time in history when there was no out.
When the system collapses, you see a 1 oz gold bar laying on the street infront of your house, are you going to go pick it up ?
no answers for that one eh ?
Class dismissed
"...someone is going to have to go."
TPTB just added your name to the list of 'volunteers', good luck with that!
Certainly, some of that may well be going on, Mako.
On the other hand, I'm certain that I'm not 100% sure what is going on. ;)
All I can do is speculate that this is a short covering rally... after several straight days of down markets in high volume, it damn well better be.
Depending on how earnings outlooks are portrayed, this short cover rally may have some legs. Again, it's hard to tell, but company managements tend to bias themselves to the super-optimistic.
As for gold, I just have no earthly idea; but when (not if) Uncle Ben re-starts the printing presses at full bore again, we'll know the bias in that trend.
There is nothing Ben can do.
I don't disagree with you at all, Mako.
But there is a difference between "doing nothing" because it won't work, and "trying more of the same" in a last ditch effort to prove one's academic prowess.
We know the former is inevitable. Given BB's penchant for ideology over pragmatism, the latter is highly probable. There's nothing Ben SHOULD do. But that would prove his theories and his prescriptions totally wrong.
PIIGS about to rally??
First up day in a long time.
http://clearstation.etrade.com/cgi-bin/bbs?post_id=9398521