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Man Lives Without Money... Could You?
In an article “Could You Survive Without Money? Meet The Guy Who Does” published on men.style.com- Daniel Suelo has managed to live the better part of ten years on virtually no money.
He's immune to recession, debt, downsizing, rightsizing, king sizing or any other form of sizing.
He doesn't even have "a van, down by the river;" no, he lives in a cave "hidden high in a canyon lined with waterfalls" just outside of Moab, Utah. Sounds like a place I'd want to maybe retire one day. Yeah, like that'll ever happen.
Suelo lives, he eats, he goes to the bathroom, he keeps busy. He goes to sleep. He does it everyday. Just like all of us.
According to Suelo "Money represents lack. Money represents things in the past (debt)... and things in the future (credit)... but money never represents what is present...” Okay. Maybe he really does have a point.
While men.style.com's Christopher Ketcham waxes almost poetically on Suelo's day-to-day struggles- which money aside, are not unlike much of our own daily grinds (albeit at a much simpler, more visceral level) a lot can be learned from living in a cave.
Suelo even has views on investing. "Gold is pretty but virtually useless. Somebody decided it has worth, and everybody accepted this decision." Notes how Native Americans "thought Europeans were insane because of their lust for such a useless yellow substance…”
Funny, for over twenty years, much of the commodity world thought the very same thing.
Suelo also has views on retirement, noting he'll live-out the twilight of his sentinel much like animals have done for millions of years. Way before Roth IRAs, pensions, and annuities.
“I have great faith in the power of natural selection. And one day, I will be selected out” quotes Ketcham on Suelo’s obvious humility and most certain mortality.
Basically “on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.” Sound familiar?
Suelo too reportedly has a blog that he runs off a public computer in a library- even further proof that you can do all this blog shit without any money.
Just this guy doesn’t need or seem to want it.
Maybe we’re all not the same after all.
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Remarkable...yes, someday they will be throwing gold into the streets. Our lives like grass that flourishes then withers. Life for most is like grasping for straws in the wind anyhow.
My joint custody parenting arrangement doesn't allow for me to live in a cave with my children, but it doesn't keep me from driving a 1995 Volvo wagon (180,000 miles strong). Frugal is en vogue and it should be. It'll have to be. Who wants the worthless pretense and pride that comes with being "wealthy" anyhow. My best times in life were the times that I struggled to get by, life was worth more then.
"My best times in life were the times that I struggled to get by, life was worth more then."
hear hear!
Better read: Thoreau's Walden....
"Gold is pretty but virtually useless. Somebody decided it has worth, and everybody accepted this decision."
What are his thoughts on AAA rated TALF eligible CMBS ?
You can kill a deer with a well-aimed hunk of gold, but AAA rated TALF eligible CMBS will only cause you to go hungry.
.. you could cook the deer with them
Use them for bedding and TP as well.
I like his natural selection comment - they will be recycled back into the eart one day as well.
aus_punter +1
I was a little bit irked by his gold comment. The difference between gold and fiat money is that gold was elected by the free market to have value -- just has things like food and health care are elected by the virtue of their perceived value to citizens all over. He sees it as pointless b/c he does not exchange goods and services with others. And, indeed, to him it is pointless. I'll cut my comments on the theory of money right here. Those were my $0.04 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation), and they were free.
You were irked by a blog report of a guy who lives in a cave not liking gold?
Yes, and was relieved when finally crawled back in.
You goldbugs are getting pretty sensitive.
I'll agree that gold dropping with the other commodities wasn't really expected to be in the script.
Another foolish knave. Gold has not only maintained its value since the crash, it has increased since and has hovered over the $900 mark and been threatening to beat $1,000 with a gnarled club and leave it limp and lifeless like Karl Denninger's toupe within the next few weeks.
I am Chumbawamba, and when gold hits $10,000/oz I will buy you like the silly jester that you are and have you for my entertainment.
Gold is elected by your belief system to have value. It has no intrinsic value. My turds are even more scarce than your gold. If the world collapses, I'll be able to trade you a turd for your gold. You know, when the Roman empire collapsed, you could have had yourself all of the gold you ever wanted. Because it was worthless. Gold only has value to a society willing to embrace that belief. Just as the Dutch assigned said value to tulip bulbs. It's about supply and demand. No society, no demand. In a world of anarchy, the only value is your ability to fend for yourself. Can you hunt? Fish? Grow your own food? Forage? Build shelter? Defend yourself from the wilds? Are you innately able to reason and solve problems?
I'm not anticipating any anarchy but I'm simply making a point. Gold's value to you is simply because someone with an illogical bias placed that belief there. ie, It's a society belief rather than a timeless truth.
Gold is very likely to collapse before we get out of this. And so is your belief system. Of course, that's a good thing.
Gold has value as it is a means of exchange. It's value comes from the fact that is homogenious, not easily reproduced, limited amount, easily recognizable, etc. It gained value b/c it allowed people to go from an economy of bartering to an economy involving currency. If everything is priced in a 'medium of exchange" then I know that if A = 2B and B = 4C, then A = 8C. B, in this case gold, functions as the medium of exchange. THAT is where its value comes from. Fiat currency, which is easily printed and manipulated has no value by the virtue that it can be instaneaously distorted and therefore the market will not know its relative price to other goods and services -- why bubbles get to be as inflated as they do.
Medium of exchange could be anything. And I could easily devise a fiat monetary system which has the same characteristics as one backed by gold. This gold bug bull-oney is so ridiculous. People get their five minutes of fame because the world is in crisis and now the answer is that we should all hold gold. Wait till gold kicks your ass. Because it's going to. Then all of the gold bugs will be beaten back to the caves from whence they came.
If what you say is true, and your prediction comes to pass, I shall melt my gold into a cudgel with which to beat the smugness off your face for being right.
I am Chumbawamba.
You have witnessed the biggest financial bubble in history. Post the bubble you have witnessed the greatest injection of liquidity the world has ever seen. Gold has been unable to make any progress. Do you know why? You should or you don't really know why you own gold other than that some ideologue told you it was a safeguard against stupid government. I am Orenthal James and I will bitch slap you before you have a chance to melt your gold.
Until that time, EQ will be trolling the golf course in ugly-ass Bruno Magli's with the bloody glove at the ready...
It is obvious that my demonstration of gold's usefulness passed over your head, much like the definition of "liquidity".
Please define for us "liquidity", and then define for us "inflation".
You will make a fine jester.
I am Chumbawamba.
You seem to think that gold was chosen as a medium of exchange by someone's decree. You need only look at history to see that it came into existence through market forces, and that governments have repeatedly turned to fiat currencies to fund their own motives, like war. I've tried to briefly explain to you why the market chose it. When America was tied to the gold standard $35 bought 1 ounce of gold, now it's $950/ounce. Instead of being dismissive, I encourage you to read Rothbard's "What Has Government Done To Our Money", which gives a very good historical summary of gold's role and its origins as a currency, as well as the evolution and consequences of fiat money.
The problem is that your turds are not easily divisible, and do not have permanence (and they are probably stinky). They just don't cut it as a currency.
Your metaphor fails. Plain and simple.
Do you really believe central bankers and politicians have finally discovered the way to make fiat paper currencies work in perpetuity?
I do not.
Therefore those of us with little confidence in bureaucrats buy and hold precious metals because of this fact.
By the way, where did you get this wonderful idea that when the Roman Empire collapsed, that there was "all of the gold you ever wanted"?
Your premise is faulty. It matters not what politicians have figured out. They are a den of vipers. I am telling you fiat money can have lasting value. I can easily create busted economies with a gold standard. It's a ruse. What you want is an honest monetary system. That could be based on trinkets. Gold will not save you from the corruption in Washington. Only honesty will save you from that. Do you even realize that this crisis was created by fraud and not fiat money? Do you think gold saved ancient Rome from fraud? Although they did defraud their currency. It was the fraud of society's elites that destroyed Rome. Just as we see today. How many kings destroyed societies by their profligacy of fraud and stealing the riches from their treasuries of gold.
Honest money. It could be turds.
Hmmmm, hmmm, let's see. On the one hand we have Orenthal James with his silly notions of money. And then we have 5,000+ years of human history.
Let's see, who is more reliable? Thinking...thinking... Gosh, yeah, I'm just going to have to ignore you, Qrenthal.
Here, it's real simple: let's say it's December 1, 2013. I have an ounce of gold, and you have US Federal Reserve Notes. We go to China together. Who's buying lunch? (Hint: not you)
I am Chumbawamba, and don't even ask for any of my fries. Bitch.
Maybe it is time to check our belief systems.. see "Zeitgeist Addendum" for an analysis of the monetary system vs. a resource system +The Venus Project!..
http://www.gamingthemarket.com/2008/11/three-great-banking-documentaries.html
The Monetay system is NEVER going to be "Honest".. it is a corrupt instrument..
:-)
Fiat money is legal tender. As long as society functions it has some value. As long as some people agree gold should mean something it has value, the same as say GM stock (MTLQQ).
Comparing either money or gold to health care is wrong. Stores of value are a means to an end, being healthy is an end in itself. Being healthy has inherent value.
Zimbabwe currency is legal tender too, what's your point? The difference between Gold and Fiat money is that government cannot instantly double or triple or inflate the amount of gold they have without committing resources, which have cost, in order to achieve that end. Printing money costs them nothing in terms of how much they can print. They can print $1,000,000,000 on a single bill (see: Zimbabwe, Russia, etc). I'm not saying that health care is the same as currency, I"m saying that both Gold and Health Care and Apples derive their value from free market -- fiat currency messes up free markets b/c it distorts the very function currency is supposed to have, which is a medium of exchange. Fiat currency, by its very nature, tends to be whimsically manipulated by governments (never has government restrained themselves from printing money) and that manipulation distorts the very purposes of currency functioning as a medium of exchange.
The ZH motto is correct and complete.
Things have value temporarily, though temporary can last a long time. Ten internet stocks, at their peak, were worth more than all the gold ever mined as well as what is still in the ground. Then the ten stocks went to zero. Gold will have its day to go to zero, too. As will the S&P. We all just try to make existing stores of value coincident with our expected lifespan. Heck, I used to believe put options had value.
Can't tell which commentary is Travis's and which is from the original article.
This sort of life-styleism will get us no where.
Do we even want to go anywhere?
Do you want to be a martyr in this greater revolution?
Someone pays for that 'free' library computer, I think they are called 'tax-payers'.
someone is paying taxes on that cave... or, if not, he may find himself evicted via eminent domain/judgment/foreclosure.
"Someone pays for that 'free' library computer,"
Right. And a good many amongst us live in urban "caves" without money....leaving the taxpayers with a bill. We can't all escape the system in such an irresponsible way or who the heck would GS find to suck the lifeblood from?
The hippies tried the dropout shit and failed.
Well they failed to enact change. I am sure alot of them had a great time though. So do you want to enact change or have a good time. I don't know. Do you?
To quote Starbuck from BSG ( keeping up the communication by common narrative) “Same thing we always do – fight them until we can't."
"Well they failed to enact change."
They claim it's only because they stopped paying the phone bills in protest. hehe
Damn...now I want to go live in a cave. Shit.
This guy gets a disease that required medical attention and it's game over!
even if he has no precondition?
Interesting article, reminds me of another I read recently on Reuters:
While leaders of the developed world attending G8 talks in Italy worry away at economic indicators like Gross Domestic Product (GDP), deflation and their implications for economic recovery, the second edition of the HPI lauds alternative standards that provide a new twist on the old adage that wealth does not buy happiness.
The United States is placed 114th out of the 143 nations surveyed, with an HPI result of 30.7 and was found to be “greener and happier” 10 years ago than today–as were China and India, ranked respectively 20th and 35th, with scores of 57.1 and 53.
is he married?
Good one, clearly we know the answer to that one. If it wasn't for beautiful girls, perhaps we could all be content to live in cardboard boxes and not need any bling as lures.
Off the grid is juvenile, sorry. So what. Survirorman is he and he gets a star in the heavens and dies just like us. Unattachment is not a the only goal.
I wonder if he smokes marlboros like the X-files Smoking man.. And if so , is he mining iron ore out of this cave to ward off aliens ??
Either way you look at it , Bowie Bonds are worth more then Gold anyday.. Just ask Jeffrey Skilling...
Cave allegories are bullshit.
How does his wife decorate the cave?
She wallpapered the cave walls with GM stock certificates.
I am sure glad the taxes from my labor can help pay for the computer he uses to write his blog... if you don't contribute your money (whether it represents past, present, or future) to the communal societal effort then you shouldn't get to share in the benefits that a civilized society offers its members... perhaps he should remain in his cave.
Thanks for sharing this - terrific viewpoint on life...
http://whoistheabsurdman.blogspot.com/2009/06/what-makes-us-happy.html
Gold can be used to make pretty baubles that will get you laid. This alone gives it a certain intrinsic value.
Breakfast at Tiffany's.. Yes!
I can appreciate him willing to be an ascetic. But he gains a great deal from "urban foraging", i.e. clothing, shoes and probably quite a bit of food. His foraging activities didn't appear to give him the bulk of his sustenance. Plus he gets the benefits of society (i.e. internet at the library,etc), so he has turned away from society until it is inconvenient. If he is content to drop his body when he gets tired of it or too incapacitated, that is a brave stance. Between the mice and the kissing bugs, he's probably got a load of parasites in his body.
Anyway, I like soap so I don't think I can go quite that far. I do appreciate the viewpoint on what's necessary vs optional.
what is it with these gold bugs. i am a firm believer that gold is a good hedge against inflation but i also know that gold has absolutely no true value...
only thing of true value to humans is food, air, water, etc. much of which is becoming scarcer by population growth. ironically, we have technology to provide all of this to people but that would be no fun for the kings.
god forbid some stupid lazy 3rd world kid drinks a cup of water off of the hard-working back of a goldman trader whose vast superior intelligence is worth more than millions of people.
Apocalypse Now-
Yes, and he is blogging and is going to write a book about it someday so he can get rich and move out of the cave. Perhaps he could also do commercials for Geico since he is a caveman. Interesting that he chose GOLD to talk about instead of dollars. The anti-gold group will stop at nothing to keep the monopoly on fiat dollars!
even more interesting story about a woman over here in Europe who has been living without money for the last 12 years and doesn't live in a cave....
Heidemarie Schwermer:
http://www.livingwithoutmoney.tv/
"Heidemarie Schwermer (67) worked for many years as a psychotherapist and teacher in Dortmund, Germany. Like most people around her, she spent most of her time working and earning money in order to buy the things she needed - and things she didn’t really need. As a psychotherapist she met many who were depressed and frustrated, over-worked and with very little spare time. Among the unemployed and poor she found that they often considered themselves worthless.
Heidemarie got the idea to start an exchange circle, where people without money could trade objects and favors. Through the exchange circle people came in contact with each other in a new way. They felt useful and worthy, and also appreciated the social aspect. After a while, Heidemarie decided to do an experiment. She cancelled her flat, donated all her things to friends and started a new life based on exchanging favors – without the use of money. Her goal was to create a greater awareness of the relationship to money and consumption.
At first she stayed with friends and acquaintances, took care of their houses when they were away for holiday or journeys and in return she received food and a place to live. Over the years, she has inspired the start-up of exchange circles throughout Germany. She wrote a book about her way of life, and the word about her lifestyle has spread. Today, she has lived without money for 12 years, and claims she has never felt so free. In the film ”Living Without Money,” we follow Heidemarie in her daily-life and learn about her life story and philosophy."