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Meet The Squatters: Here Are The Millions Of Americans Who Live Mortgage-Free For Up To 5 Years And Counting
The topic of Americans living mortgage-free in foreclosed homes on which banks do not have proper titles is nothing new - in fact we are surprised that there isn't a robosignature app for that...yet. Neither is the fact that this ongoing reverse capital transfer provides as much as $50 billion in "rental" income for those same squatters. And while the ethical arguments for strategically defaulting on one's mortgage can get very heated on both sides, one thing is certain: the ongoing foreclosure crisis is creating a new subclass of "entitled" people, who certainly enjoy living on the back of the banks, while not paying one cent, and not vacating the premises. According to a new article by CNNMoney, some of the excesses observed within this latest demonstration of unearned entitlement are truly staggering. To wit: "Charles and Jill Segal have not made a mortgage payment in nearly five years -- but they continue to live in their five-bedroom West Palm Beach, Fla. home....Lynn, from St. Petersburg, Fla., has been living without paying for three years....In Thousand Oaks, Calif., an actor has missed 30 payments, and still, he has not lost his home...." In other words, what were once isolated incidents are becoming an epidemic, and like it or not, are creating a massive capital shortfall in bank balance sheets (after all "assets" are supposed to generate cash in most cases), which will likely involve yet another broad taxpayer bailout of these same banks that now have no recourse to do much if anything to evict these same squatters who instead of paying their mortgage (or rent), prefer to purchase trinkets and gizmos. "Some 4.2 million mortgage borrowers are either seriously delinquent or
have had their cases referred to lawyers to pursue foreclosure auctions,
according to LPS Applied Analytics. Of those, two-thirds have made no
payments at all for at least a year, and nearly one-third have gone more
than two years."
The specifics, to anyone who has been following this festering issue which threatens to create even further class resentment, are well known:
These cases can go on and on. Nationwide, it takes an average of 565 days to foreclose on borrowers in default from their first missed payments to the final auction. In New York, the average is 800 days and in Florida, where the "robo-signing" issue is particularly combative, it's 807.
If they want to fight evictions hard, borrowers can remain in their homes even longer while their cases are being worked through.
The Segals have been doing that -- in court. They bought their home in 2003 with an adjustable rate mortgage. After a few years, their monthly payments tripled to $3,000, just as their home-inspection business was cratering.
The Segals want the bank to modify the mortgage so payments are affordable, and they think the court will agree that their lender put them into a toxic loan.
Surely, the Segals signed the dotted line under the gun:
"The evidence will show that we were defrauded," said Jill Segal.
Well, with no downside, and just an already worthless credit rating as the opportunity cost, everyone is rapidly realizing that strategic defaults are the way to go:
If they lose, of course, they'll finally have to leave. And, unfortunately, more than 50 months of missed mortgage payments hasn't translated into big savings.
"It's very hard to save," said Jill Segal. "Our company's billing is 90% off and my husband is only working about four days a week."
Lynn, who didn't want her last name used, purchased a two-bedroom on Tampa Bay in 1998 for $135,000.
As the waterfront property's value skyrocketed, eventually reaching $750,000, she refinanced twice (once to expand a business), and took out a second mortgage. She now owes more than $600,000 on the home, which is worth only $235,000.
Living in this foreclosure limbo is "Hell," Lynn said. "I feel like I'm locked in a box. I work for a financial organization and if this came out, it could cost me my job."
And why not? With banks not having to face the consequences of massive failure, why should deadbeats? Especially when there are such sensitive issues to consider as whether the next place one lives, the one where one will actually have to pay for a roof, has a favorable pet policy:
She's still hoping to negotiate the loan. In the meantime, small things
bother her. "A couple years ago, I lost my dog and I can't decide on
getting a new one," she said. If she has to move, she can't be sure
she'll go somewhere that allows pets.
In the meantime stories such as this one are rapidly becoming the new morality drama:
Ruben Martinez, a Staten Island, N.Y., man trapped in a particularly bad adjustable rate mortgage, stopped paying more than three years ago. His attorney, Robert Brown, has managed to stave off one foreclosure.
Martinez, still struggling to find work, has little in savings despite the missed payments. He's earning some income as a pastor and consulting for a non-profit family counseling organization.
"There's pressure on me every day," he said. "I have a wife, three daughters and two grandchildren. Where are we going to live?" To top of page
For now there has not been much dissent with this type of behavior. However, when banks openly turn the tables and make it all too clear that they have absolutely underreserved for this kind of behavior and will very soon need a TARP 2.0, funded by everyone else, but certainly not the squatters, according to whom they dont' have two nickels to rub together, the question will be: will the general population, and here we reference the increasingly more endangered middle class, blame the banks again... or will it turn on itself?
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how everyone hasnt joined them by now, is beyond me ????
@Seasmoke
Scruples.
So i can't wait for these houses to finally be put and priced on the market as foreclosed so they can bring the property values down even further. Since (of course) we all know that the value of a house is determined by the houses around it... which are valued by the houses around it... which are.. ... circled logic regarding value? Pah.
This "average" must be for judicial foreclosure states. Texas is not one of those states and I have seen places foreclosed on in less than 30 days here. Then it only takes another 30 days to evict them. Perhaps the problem is not with the banks or the borrowers but with the states and their laws.
+1
Notice how the states with the biggest problems are also the jingle mail states?(anti-deficiency). You get more of the behavior you reward and less of the behavior you punish.
State Foreclosure Deficiency Lawshttp://www.foreclosurelawfirms.com/topics.cfm/anti-deficiency-laws.html
Silver for the people
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrotherJohnF?feature=mhee
Pay no taxes biznitches. Fuck the system. 2012 baby. 2012.
Fuck the system!
Cute, holding on to a vague point in time as if anything will ever come of it.
Pathetic.
The foreclosure 'Process Period' is 27 days in Texas (shortest period of any state). Contrast that with New York's 445 days.
http://www.realtytrac.com/foreclosure-laws/foreclosure-laws-comparison.asp
The vast majority of the houses that have been foreclosed on were valued <200k. The banks know damn well they'd get killed trying to auction or short sell McMansions in the current market, so they're stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place.
Mark to Market beatches and the banks become squatters too... LOL
Yesterday really pissed me off. CNBC colluded with the banks to say capital reserves are going down. That's what esculated this whole mess to begin with. They play with digital money and want bailed out with real money.
The banksters are crooks. Jamie Dimon cries that he wants to use the reserves to take on more risk. While they are insolvent now. If the banks had to put all their conduits on the books they are as upside down as all these people who do not own their own homes.
Houses are foreclosed on in Texas faster because house prices haven't fallen as much there.
Most foreclosures in Arizona aren't done through a court (it is available but not common), but foreclosures there can take a while, because when you are 40% underwater, the banks aren't in any hurry to take the house over.
I believe you're ignoring the aspect that sometimes these banks are choosing to hold off on foreclosing on the home. There's already a big backlog of bank owned properties, if they tried to sell them all at once prices would spiral downward even more. They want to slowly milk the foreclosures out of the system and sell them back over time to get maximum return. If they don't foreclose right away, they aren't responsible for property taxes, HOA fees, etc. Also it's better to have someone living there, even squatters, than have it sit vacant for several years. People tend to keep pests and insects out, etc.
nothing can stop reality from intruding. People aren't going to buy with all this crap hanging over the market.
Some marginally employed people *could* afford houses at a realistic price point. It might make all the MEW'd out the ass suburbanites underwater, oh fucking well. It might make banks go TU, oh well.
If we're going to give people free shit, give everyone a check to clear their mortgage and for those who have none, give them an average check the same as everyone else.
Well, that's how this whole crap system works in the big picture.
1. Make the upper class too rich
2. Make the lower class too poor
3. Distribute the excess wealth from up to down, via taxes and freebies.
4. Upper class fucks lower class via artificial class warfare. (Lower employee wages, entitlement cuts)
5. Lower class fucks upper class, because they have no buying power anymore
6. Elite sucks both dry, while they blame each other.
Actually here is how it is working>
A guy in Marietta Ga (north Atlanta) where there a lot of very nice homes and well to do folks "owns" 20 houses and apartments. The average rent is 1,800 to 2,000 a month. Only 3 are not in forclosure, he own them out right. The other 17 ( even thought Ga is a lein theroy state, meaning the bank owns it until you pay off the loan) are and have been in forclosure for over 24 months. He pays no mortgage, taxes, or insurance premiums/payments...none. His invested 'downpayment' in the 17 homes is $5,000 including expenses.
Now...here is the kick in the ass for YOU, the bailout taxpayer. He pays an attorney 1,000 per week average to keep the forclosue process going for him with delay and demand tactics ( you know how slow the banks are to respond when the government has them covered).So, do the math 1,800 X 17+ 306,000 -$4,000 = $302,000 per month free and clear ona $85,000 investment ( down payment 17 x $5,000).
He is making $3,624,000 per year and we wonder why we are going down fast.
To add insult to injury, he takes depreciation on his taxes which are NOT treated as income taxes but un-earned income, and no social security due.
Excuse me maam, your envy is showing
Here is how it works:
- Bank does shit, screws homeowners, and burns its cash in bonusses
- Homeowner screws bank
- Bank: "Oh shit, now i'm broke" *points gun at population* "Bail us out or we'll destroy you all!"
- blindfaith: "You greedy squatters, you're responsible for this all!"
- Bank: "Thanks for all the cash, you fucking idiots! Now, as for the upcoming bonusses...."
I must be missing something, but how does 17 x $1800 = $306,000?
Damn you and your facts :)
That was my plan in 08. Give every adult 100 or 200 or 300K and then let the chips fall after that.
Not sure about the amount, but that would have been the fairest type of stimulus. Hence, not a snowball's chance in hell of actually occurring.
@Zenith191: You need to read "The Big Short" by Michael Lewis, ISBN: 978-0-393-07223-5. Like every other major problem in existence, the US Govt exacerbated the Real Estate market woes, enabling the Banksters to profit even more from Fraud!
Yep, and for those of us who neither over borrowed nor over lent on our homes, we can now choose from one of two beliefs:
1. That the banks were wrong, therefore giving our strategically-defaulting neighbors an advantage to live better than we do.
2. That our strategically defaulting neighbors are wrong, thus forcing their home onto the growing list of foreclosure properties which are increasingly destroying the value of our homes everyday.
If only there were a third choice; to pack all parties on both sides of this argument into shipping containers and send them somewhere far away, where they would be required to pass a course in basic financial risk management before they could return. Unfortunately, even Maersk, Hapag-Lloyd, and COSCO combined don’t have big enough fleets to handle the logistics.
They are BOTH wrong.
End TBTF and see.
Instead we socialize the losses of the rich/incorporated by punishing everyone else while quibbiling about differences between moral bankrupcy and economic.
Savers and risk averse need to be vindicated with lower housing prices. Those who speculated and/or took on a mortgage, or even just bought a house took the risk(s). Default hits future credit, regardless.
Those who commit fraud on either side can rot in hell. Those that default even though they have money are not committing fraud.
Because the banks are committing fraud (which is a crime) all over the fucking place people are defaulting (which is not a crime).
It's that simple. END TBTF and mark-to-butthole accounting (which is 100% fraud) and the US RE market will move!
CONTRACT LAW: if fraud is evident, the contract is void. As far as I'm concerned, these banks had a plan to sucker in borrowers at obscene rates of principal and intrest. Now, ironically your house (as is everybody else's) is worth 30% less due to their spin on real estate never going down.
Realtors were in bed with assessors and mortgage brokers. Mortgage brokers and banks could mitigate risk by bundling shit, rating it AAA and selling it to investors. Everyone was making incrementally more with each sale by "price appreciation". The government could give a damn because it was making bank with the tax revenues also. And, the naive homeowner thought he was getting a great investment which turned out to be CRAP. The whole situation is FRAUD.
+100, I think you hit the nail on the head. If someone breaks their side of the contract via fraud or other underhanded reasons, usually compensatory, fees, and punitive damages are awarded. In many states the punitive damages are 3x the compensatory damages.
All this outrage over people who are squatting in homes would never happen in the world of the hypocrites who got screwed on a contract. They would file suit and demand financial retribution. Here, The homeowners damage awards come in the form of shelter. No money with few exceptions. That isn't alright because , well money is money and homes are homes and if they paid for a house, damned if anyone else is going to get one for free even though that may very well be the punitive part of the damages. The same damages they would sue to get on any contract where damages had occurred.
It's a 8 alarm hypocrisy fire, similar to the article that one of the TDs put up about another right wing talking point that is patently untrue, that only 50% of Americans pay taxes. The only valid conclusion is this person is an apologist for the banks at best and is a paid blogger by the banks at worst. It's all bullshit and the writer knows it. The people that these articles rile up aren't a sterling example of what society is, but one could be forgiven if they looked in and said; "this is a right wing hate site".
Since municipal revenues are mostly determined by the values of homes in their districts can we also assume that the housing implosion will cause the failures of multitudes of municipalities who will need to be bailed out by the counties and states who will then need to be bailed out themselves by the feds who cannot be bailed out by anything other than money printing?
++ for the most laconic truth on this thread. Not paying one's mortgage is a personal moral hazard that I myself have yet to breach. Two wrongs not making a right and all..
Earlier in this crisis I was all about revenge on the banks. But, if vigilante justice is morally wrong, then so too is purposeful mortgage freeloading. Look folks, there is no free lunch. Get by with a 'free' home, what else deserves revenge? What kind of man do want to be? This is every man's personal journey and own moral hazard. Choose well.
To whom should you send your cash?
Make your own decision and walk with it.
Edit: my idea of 'revenge' has become to live a balanced life that is somewhat in the system and as much out of the system as I feel is right and reasonable. The system will collapse on its own accord, I will not.
You said earlier that you'd pay the 'mortgage'. I'm asking to whom you'd pay it, seeing as the Banker-Gangsters have no legitimate claim on it.
I've no intention of becoming a Civilian-Gangster. When, where and how I rebel is my own way and choice.
You can have the last word.
Edit: yes, I pay worthless FRNs to my mortgage holder. I pay myself in physical gold.
What happens when you make that final payment, and there is no one who can deliver you a clear title due to fraudulent transfers, questionable securitization processes, etc... Then you become a morally superior (chump) victim. MERS is no longer recognized as a legal transfer of title in many states, if you got your mortgage in the past ten years it is most likely a MERS transfer. Just saying...
I forget the term (details /shrug), but I would think this depends on the local laws regarding the occupant paying the bills on the property (taxes, gas, electricity, etc.). You pay the property taxes for 5 years, and there is a chance the county will decide you own the joint. There is also the chance they won't.
For everything else, there is karma.
If you're referring to adverse possession, it takes longer than 5 years (15 in some states) and doesn't apply to defaulting on a lien against the property. It applies when two people lay claim to the same property. If one person can prove his possession of the property has been open, hostile, under a claim of right, exclusive, and continuous (and a couple of other things, I think) for a period of 15 years, then that person will gain legal title through adverse possession. it doesn't wipe out a lien, though.
Agreed. I have a Local Credit Union, sold to Countrywide, bought by BofA, transferred to Fannie mortgage that originated in Q4 of '05. My mortgage statement comes in the mail addressed to me, only my last name is listed as my wife's maiden name. Think there's a chance they have shit screwed up with that?
Goddamn scruples.
Did anyone put a gun to your head to buy that house and put your J.H. on the dotted line? No, they didn't. You wanted that house. Now, you want a fucking free house 'cuz others are'. Ah, yes, the siren song of looting...
No, but when he bought the house, he expected anyone who bought the note to legally transfer it. If it was not legally transferred, then the current holder of the note is not really, and has fucked up the clear title. What you buy when buy a property, in the eyes of the law, is not the property, it is clear title to that property. So the Banksters and the MERS system have destroyed what you are making your payements for. Hence, since you desire clear title, you should do everything you can to get it. If that includes stopping payment to clearly fraudulent claims on that title, that is not the buyers fault, but the fault of the MERS system set up by the bankers to perpetrate fraud.
It is not a free house. You made a deal and agreed to make payments over time. The buyer of the note fucked it up, fucked up clear title, and does not deserve payments unless he can reinstate clear title. Most states require recording of lien and note changes within 30 days or so, or such claims are void. Without clear title, their is no claim.
Paying federal income taxes is not legally required either. But we all know the hell it brings if we don't. You see, when you have children you have to be wise on when and how you stiff Uncle Sammy. As I said earlier, it really is every man's choice and they must choose well..
2x
There is a growing number of people who are making their mortgage payments into an escrow account set up by an attorney until the bank get their shit straight.
You don't have to "want a free house" just because you don't want to run off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings.
Show me where I said I wanted a free house. Please pull your head from your ass, and note that I was responding to a comment about what happens to all the "MERS chumps" whose "goddamn scruples" found them in the position of fighting a court battle to try to obtain clear title on a house they spent twenty years paying for, but whose mortgage had been chopped into a million little tranches and disappeared.
You have been junked, dude, by the ethically lazy. I respect your pledge. I hate paying my mortgage every month on a house I know isn't worth what I bought it for, as I pay banks that aren't worth my time. But I made a deal, a contract, a promise, and if I reneg on that, I'm no better than the crooks.
Plus, like I tell people, I answer to a higher power than citigroup.
Here's to being able to lay your head down at night, sleeping soundly with the knowledge that you aren't just another thief.
Morally and ethically superior are you?
Someone sells you something fraudulent and makes you the responsible party left holding the bag?
I don't think so.
the House was fraudulent? How can a house be fraudulent?
I'm all for prosecuting the banks, but we can't have a system where EVERYBODY in fucking society is a goddamned n#gger! You want that type of society?
Default and get out of the house. Let the banks fail and the properties clear.
Otherwise, we just prolong the bullshit and pain and give MORE of the assholes who MEW'd into luxury SUVs and boats an even BIGGER free ride
Come on Trav,
You know what I meant. No paperwork or title? That's fraud, plain and simple. I'm not defending the borrower not paying his mortgage in good faith, just calling it what it is. Does that mean someone deserves to own a house without paying for it? Of course not.
"Let the banks fail and the properties clear".
Yes, that is the answer. I agree. We are not seeing that happen.
Lilsten up, do you morons know anything about business? Buying a house is not a moral obligation, or promise that defines who you are. It is a business deal. You talk like a mortgage that has been fraudulently sold 4 times is the same as another member of the community or a relative that you made a promise to and owe money to.
In business you make a deal. If the other side commits fraud, the deal is null and void. If you can't work it out as to who owes what, the courts can help settle it. That's what they are for. It's not your spiritual measure of self worth whether you continue to carry out your promise. It's your promise in conjunction with the other party's promise. When either of the partys doesn't carry through, the deal is over.
Boy, if anyone wonders how the banks were able to pull this off, they should just come to ZH and read what some of these morons think is moral behavior. It is decidedly immoral behavior towards yourself and your family to continue to pay someone who has fucked you over. It is also utter stupidity and shows you for the mark, the sheeple that you are.
I hope that's clear!!!
Tell you what Einstein, you prove beyond a doubt that my bank does not hold my title. Prove that 10 years from now they will not hand it over to me. M'kay?
You fucking idiot. You want me to hazard having my family getting kicked out of our house so you can feel smart, you cunt? Fuck you, you stupid mother-fucker. I will gladly put a bullet in an iBanker's head when the time is right. Not before that. Do you have any clue on timing, you fuck? So go on and STFU.
I was pretty much with you up until that last paragraph of yours. You strayed, and this post is out of leftfield.
Agreed. 100%. Shell Game doesn't seem to understand that you can want to make sure the chain of title to the next 6,342 months of payments is unobstructed, without expecting something for nothing.
Here's my take:
The banks didn't do anything illegal when they loaned money to shitbags who never should have been able to obtain a mortgage; they were shitty business partners, but not criminal. The rub is when they broke chain of title and chopped up the paper work into little pieces of stinky ratshit and sold them to any dumb fuck who would buy them.
I will pay my mortgage. Every last dime of it. What I want to know, demand to find out, is: WHEN I PAY THE SON OF A BITCH OFF, WILL I BE ABLE TO SELL IT OR LIST IT AS AN ASSET?????
There are a shitload of HONEST people who are pissed about this. Not freeloaders, not shysters, just people who entered into a business dealing with unscrupulous partners, who are SERIOUSLY WONDERING what the next right step is.
@Shell Game... You jumped my shit without even trying to examine context. Your principle is sound, but your admonishment for everybody who is pissed off at a broken sysem is not. Reexamine your thought process. You talk like a revolutionary/doomer, but your behaviour is more like a Hannity/Limbaugh bot.
You need to make that decision, whether the bank holds title.
You are responding with more of the same here. If you want to do something about your mortgage, you have to take RESPONSIBILITY and do a little research. I do not want you to risk getting thrown out of your house. I'm advising you to, if you want to, to check it out yourself. If it looks very fishy, take everything you've discovered to a lawyer and get a professional opinion. Preferably a lawyer who has a little experience in these matters. Most lawyers will take a look see for very little money.
If you would default on your loan based on the rantings of a fellow ZH poster, you really are a moron.
Wake up!! They are not all powerful. Go down to the county recorder's office and get a copy of your property's paper work. Read it, take responsibility for your side of the agreement that you made. Then make a decision. Or not. Or just continue paying like a good sheeple. Your choice.
Trans - I like your argument. Shellgame is only reading with his eyes not his mind. He is getting upset and not responding to logic he is only responding to what he feels is his own morality dilemma.
Shell I like your moniker however you should pay attention to it more. Understand that all finance is one giant shell game. Morality be damned.
Example: I have a friend with an expensive home, with a 1st and 2nd mortgage. The first is with Citi (supposedly) and is definitely fraudulent. Checked the deed at county, something is wrong, doesn't match who is collecting payments. The first is smaller than the 2nd, which is a home equity line of credit, a solid, clear lien on the property. Since the 2nd is the major loan on the property, and the first is screwy, AND Citi sends an offer to refi every month via overnite Fedex, it's pretty obvious they want to make a new loan, cause they know, too. The 1st was a 15 year, and doing a refi with them makes it a 30 year and less than half the previous payment. Any default/argument triggers the 2nd also, so the friend has decided to take the refi, as hyperinflation is ramping up to be a reality in the next 6-12 mos. Friend has G&S with which to pay off both loans once hyperinflated to a low value.
That is taking RESPONSIBILITY for the situation and making a decision based on the situation.
Pretty clear some people won't listen to your totally rational and common sense approach to this. You advocate people challenging fraud and get junked. Sad.
If you are living in a house, and there is an outstanding mortgage on it, regardless of whether there is a clear custody chain, and you are not paying that mortgage, AND you have not filed a case with the local courts to clear any liens on the property title, THEN YOU ARE THE MORON. All these cases of unclear titles need to go through the courts and new clean paperwork issued, both sides are utterly and equally GUILTY of postponing the recovery in the US housing market.
You should get down on your knees and thank GOD that you live in country where disagreements about business deals can be resolved through a judicial process in the courts. There is still a sizeable portion of this planet where your sort of arrogance is rewarded by watching what real banker-gangsters can do your family when you don't pay what you owe - and it is a lot slower and more greuling than 70 rounds from a SWAT team.
WTF, why do you have to use that racist term to make your point? I've read you here for a while, it it's not necessary. It cheapens your argument for sure.
Lol. Another North American whos been brainwashed to think it is his moral obligation to call out everyone who uses the term nigger as a racist pig.
Its just a word, man. I suggest you get more desensitized and understand they have more than enough words for us as well.
'they'??
I am not seeing too many examples used of the words used by 'them' here as negative descriptors.
I am opposed to political correctness, but when you use words like nigger as a derogative term, and then link it specifically by your italicized 'they', you most definitely come across as a racist pig.
I'd like to make the distinction between someone defaulting on their home - which is allowed in the contract - and someone defaulting and still living there for free. If you default and leave, I see no ethical and moral problem with that. Your agreement (the loan) with the bank contemplates that scenario, and therefore it's hard for either party to argue they were 'wronged'.
Not paying, and staying, amounts to theft, imho.
But, the question of clear title is an interesting one, and vastly complicates any analysis...
You pay it to whomever you agreed to pay it to.
Bravo Shell...
This is the Charles Hugh Smith "opt-out" scenario in Survival+. It's really the only revenge. Turn your back on the system as much as possible and eventually it will collapse. The fact is the system needs us to participate -- be good consumers, borrowers, spenders.
The system will collapse when the parasites at the top of the food chain (bankers) and the parasites at the bottom (unproductive elements -- 5 year mortgage squatters) squeeze so much from the middle class that they say "fuck it" and opt out (e.g. stop paying their taxes, black/grey market economies and so forth). We're close to that now.
Indeed, Cleve. The only way for a man to be free in this society is to be apart from it as much as one can. I don't know about you, but I have family who are dependent on me. If I were single I might be able to be wreckless and give an F.U. to the banks. But, this move is much like shorting a Fed driven market......timing is everything. Short too early and you're a dead bear.
My powder is dry and waiting the right time..
I consider the junks from socialists as a badge of honor. lol! Take care.
How many times has your mortgage been sold? States were certainly complicit in getting the highest property tax possible..
The more people learn the more likely they'll just say fuk it and not care. moral hazard be damned..
I bet if you were looking at being homeless your morality would get a little more flexible.
Of course, not until then. Get it?
Why is default a moral decision? Because banks and MSM say so? It's a financial/business decision. If I owe $200k on an asset worth $90k it doesn't make financial sense to keep the asset. Lending has risk, this is nothing new - it always has and always will, and is exactly why we pay interest on debt. Don't be fooled by social norms that are created by TPTB.
yes, by all means, default and get the fk out of the house and go rent somewhere or something.
Give back to the banks what is theirs...let them sell the effing thing or fail and some vulture capitalist come in and sell it.
LET THE MARKET CLEAR
the banks don't want most of them back. If you don't pay and they don't want it back then
STFU fool.
If the deadbeats stay and keep the place up then the bank and YOU
are better off.
This "market" you speak of was and is a fable.
But we're not better off. The bank keeping the FB in the house keeps house prices artificially high. First time buyers need lower prices.
Fractional reserve banking allows banks to use money that never existed before the loan agreement was made. With power like that, who needs enemies! Loan to every living thing under the sun and pound defaulters into the ground with morality statements. Buy up real assets with no skin in the game!
Hallelujah! What are we waiting for! Everyone, follow Trav's lead!
Why? Because in 2002, when I bought my house, I did so within my means. I did so because I wanted the house, no one forced it on me, or misled me. I wanted a home for my children. Simply speaking, paying my mortgage is the right thing to do.
As a very distant second place reason: my home is still above water.
Who needs a conscience when you have moral relativism?
Here are my thoughts on what is happening to homes and where this is all headed.
It is more borrower physiology than anything else. Let me explain. About ten years ago I saw a tv show on a criminal locked up for years on a manslaughter conviction. As part of his punishment, the convict had to write a $1 check to the victim’s family each month. After leaving prison, the convict stated that it was much harder to write the check each month because it reminded him of the worst mistake he ever made in his life.
Well, here we are in the housing crisis. Each month, millions of Americans have to write a check (much more than $1) that reminded them of their own person prison sentence. This financial penitentiary (underwater house) has to be feed 40% of their take home pay until they are put on parole (vacate with diminished credit scores).
Some people, such as my pastor, will continue to pay because they signed an agreement that they would and will always try to do the right thing even if they become insolvent (insolvent on earth, richer in the afterlife). However, most people will succumb to the redundant monthly check writing and will be able to leave their own person prison/hell.
They're just emulating the same scruples that they see in business and politics every day. Yeah two wrongs don't make a right but it's hard to take issue with squatters when you see the institutional corruption in this country.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Ok, I'll play your colloquialism game....
Turnabout is fairplay.
So if the banks with all the bad mortgage paper start sharing notes, and decide to squat on your checking account, savings account, and IRA then turnabout is fairplay? After all, you can go court anytime and file a lawsuit to get clear title and access to the money you gave them. The law in regards to banks (and brokerages) is quite clear, when you deposit assets with them, those assets become the bank's assets, and the bank then incurs a liability to the depositor.
What kind of piece of shit junks scruples?
"Scruples."
LOL.
If the banks broke title and cannot foreclose, what is the issue here? We, as homeowners, didn't do anything wrong and aren't "deadbeats" as the article says. That's really annoying.
There is no contract to uphold if the title is broken.
Then it becomes a lottery of entitlement, no?
"lottery of entitlement" is the mother of "possession by force"
This risks breeding a strain of inequity-rage that didn't exist pre-collapse. Infighting among the prison-mates is a very beneficial distraction to the oligarchy.
What's happening in the mortgage arena is a consequence of the rule of law breaking down. The banks didn't obey it and the courts went along with them for years. Now people are reacting and fighting back. The ship can still be turned....but time is running short. The devil is the creation of money out of thin air. We have to bring back the Gold Standard or it's close cousin.
I don't get Tyler on this one. He knows better, at least some of the Tyler's do.
Not following you, JLee. All I think (the) Tyler is pointing out is that if there is no proper title, then it becomes a bit of a squatter's rights issue. So he may be agreeing with you that the rule of law is out the window. I took his comment as a "if that's the case, where does it go"?
I don't know that the people that were "victims" of deceptive lending are the same ones that are "fighting back" as you say. I think the squatters are simply making a choice that they believe is in their fiscal interest.
My points on this are (1) there's no nobility to breaking your end of the bargain "just because" there's a title issue and (2) like all things in this gathering storm, they are metastasizing faster than they can be addressed, and will morph into something worse.
My two cents, but I appreciate your passion on this.
Maybe. I'd be the first to say that Tyler is a lot smarter then me...usually.
Tyler jumps in the thread generally for one of two reasons - to clarify a glaring mis-statement about a post or to nudge the discussion another level. I think the latter here.
Don't sell yourself short, bud, your maybe is better than the yes of a lot of hacks trolling here.
:D
Non of these deadbeats should be b!tching about Obama, CONgress, or banksters if they're sitting pretty in a home they're not paying on. What a bunch of BS. They should be praising the financial terrorist for enabling their free ride in a home they aren't paying for.
I'm confused about something. Not paying your mortgage is one thing, especially with the confusing over who holds the title, but how do the squatters avoid paying their property taxes? It seems like the state would come after them sooner than 5 years if one doesn't pay property tax, can't they institute a form of foreclosure over non-payment of tax?
I have read that in some cases, the bank pays the taxes to keep the state away.
My neighbor across the street hasn't paid their property tax in 5 years and nothing has happened. A county I worked in, tried to sell about 2 dozen "tax foreclosed" homes, only got bids for 5 of them. That answer your question?
Title to the property is not in dispute. The purchasers/deadbeats OWN title to the homes... title is not broken... (there are no wild deeds at issue here). The issue is one of encumbrances upon the properties... and the chain of those encumbrances or liens.
This is not a situation of people "fighting back." You are projecting your ideals as the motivations for others' actions... Rather, this is the simple economic reality we are living... they can no longer pay, but the banks cannot legally foreclose (or cannot withstand a hit to capital)... so we sit in limbo until resolution is made, given they have o incentive to start paying rent somewhere else. I'll posit that people with the means to continue paying do not make up a material portion of these deadbeats.
The other problem is what Tyler has alluded to... moral hazard begets moral hazard... If I as someone with net equity in my home, a taxpayer, and a young person (read: beast of burden for the animal farm) have to decrease my standard of living and increase my taxes because of deadbeats wolving my sheep for democracy dinner, then you will see me clamoring for a resolution, regardless of its consequences to banks or the deadbeats (both inevitable anyway).
I personally believe there are ways around the chain of assignment to foreclose... however, there are no ways without negative consequences... both sides are testing the waters with cases at the moment... and the only success I've seen for homeowners/deadbeats is by setting aside foreclosure decrees or defending foreclosure suits, but not as a proactive measure to "clear" title... and I have serious reservations about how far they'll get (no damages among other issues).
But, what you have to admit is that deadbeats made a promise, they figured out the banks weren't going to enforce their rights, and they are now milking the shit out of it... call it like it is... I'm not saying I expect anyone to do differently, but at least call it like it is...
true
ok, i could have bought a 1.5 to 2 million dollar home with my credit back in the 2003 to 2006 with no problem. but my home that is paid for is fine, and i had to children in college.
i have a sister that has the huge home and has refinanced it more times than a momma possum has teats.
it pisses me off that she is now on vacations and buying new cars etc. because she has no mortgage payment.
i guess no virtue go unpunished.
however, if i ever decide to sell my home, i have clear title. while my sister cannot sell, borrow, nor convey, and she pisses away all her money on depreciating assets and bling, so if she ever gets evicted it will be funny
Just gotta make sure that recklass people fall on their asses when the time comes.
Which only represents the vast majority of the ninnies in the nanny state. I see no good reason why delay is required... but the people who face the pitckforks (from a hypocritical mob) want to kick the can... to the detriment of the politically impotent beasts of burden.
I have a hard time believing those advocating for mooching the fuck out of political entitlements (read: squatter deadbeats and banks) will make sure the poor, downtrodden ninnies don't get any bread or circuses and get to eat their hands at the end of every month. If you were really honest about this endeavor, you would call moral hazard where it lies and protect the beasts of burden from exhaustion (read: not the FIRE industry). This is something that can be done now, not whenever banks get around to developing the means to speed up foreclosures...
MM, your thinking has genuinely evolved on this stuff over time. Thanks for sharing it all along the way!
Not really, I just have to include more comments regarding both sides of the story so as to not get junked to "bolivia" and have people react to the comments rather than think through them...
clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
LOL. Thanks for helping us out!
MM, my condolences on your recent death. RIP brother.
God made me his honorary son after elbow dropping jesus off the top rope
Yeah, limbo. Wish I could be making billions in profits while everyone else waits around in pain. When more bankers are in jail for FRAUD we can talk about morality.
ahh, relativism... not to sound like your mother, but do two wrongs make a right? Morality is objective and constant... we can always talk about morality. Some may transgress more than others, but that does not mean we can only discuss the most immoral... all must be judged to the standard.
PS, we sit in limbo... others may be widening their leads ;)
Eh, good points.
The thing is, you get to hold on to your integrity. That is worth more than 1000 clear titles.
In the current moral climate, put your integrity in one hand, shit in the other hand, and see which one fills up first.
I don't say this often, but if you think decency is obsolete, may God save us from your cutting edge.
I am nuts, but it has NEVER pissed me off that I am high and dry with more than
I will ever need and others are in debt over their head.
They don't have my peace I can assure you and if they do then I still
don't care.
Not one bit.
at all , ever.
You cut to the bone your envy is a big part of the fools paradise that is this country.
No because shell be on your doorstep looking for a place to live LOL.
+1. I don't understand junking a well written content filled comment.
LEee, my exact response as well.
My old pappy always used to say, there is no more deeply satisfying religious experience... than cheatin' on a cheater.
I would disagree that this is "vengenance". It's just a consequence of a lot of homeowners being too broke to pay their mortgages...and then by defending themselves in court finding out the bank broke title. Word spreads and then others default after verifying the bank cannot foreclose.
thats what happened to me.......fell behind, stupid enough to believe Obama when he said 4 million homeowners would aviod foreclosure with HAMP and then when getting the runaround for over a year i became well read in what REALLY happened and then became an expert in my own TITLE ASSIGNMENT FRAUD ......this was not some master scam i came up with (although i wish i could say i was that smart !)
I'd like to question why you ever believed Obama in the first place.
We don't know this man's place of birth, legal name, social security number, where he went to school, how he made his millions--okay, so it was the Chicago mob--or how such an absolute nobody ever got anywhere in life, let alone into the White House--okay, so his mother was CIA.
If you were popping champagne corks on November 22nd, 1963, and are still around today for this latest installment of CIA/gangster rule, Obama's your man, obviously, as was Bush before him.
Otherwise, wtf?
Unfortunately due to different circumstances the enlightenment is not something we are born into, it is something that comes from the progression of questioning authority. Not everyone has the light bulb moment at the same time. Give the guy a break, there were many people fooled by Obama's promises.
dupe
Religious experience? Your pappy go to the church of Sanford-Weiner-Schwarzenegger-Clinton???
I'm not even sure how to respond to that.
You have to investigate your mortgage with a loan audit and make a decision on what is right for you. If you have a valid, legal mortgage pay it. Otherwise, what are you paying for? They can't give you proper title.
Nothing is free jack ass and it's not your home if you didn't pay for it. I don't give a shit what the loan says, if it's bunk then so is the fact that you "own" it.
I love when I get junk'ed to oblivion for saying people should pay their bills. I guess most people think it's wrong when big companies and banks don't pay their bills but when little Johnny and Susie Squatter don't pay their bills it's everyone else's fault.
I'm begining to see why we're so screwed.
This is why Americans are so pathetic, they protest by sitting their fat asses on the couch and not paying their bills!
Junking me because they can't honor their word. They think they're noble by protesting but to weak to stand up and march. Just sit on your fat ass American't and don't pay your bills. You're such a revolutionary you don't even have to revolt!
If you signed for a house with say an ARM mortgage and you did not read the paper work you are stupid. That is like buying stocks through a broker and they go belly up ,and then saying your broker defrauded you . You cannot fix stupid.
Even more pathetic are the deadbeats who default on their credit cards or refuse to pay their mortgage, and then call themselves "revolutionaries."
When Ken and Barbie Dingbat drive to Starbucks in their leased X5 and charge $5 lattes against their nearly maxed-out HELOC, it does not remind me of Ernesto Guevara.
I suppose calling oneself a revolutionary from inside a shopping mall is the only way that a consumer addict/deadbeat can make themselves feel different than other deadbeats. Leave it to an American to spend a year at the shopping mall, and suddenly decide to twist their gluttony and consumerism into some sort of mind-bending revolutionary cause.
Pay your debts, you fucking deadbeats! If you wanna cry foul because you don't think the bank's money is real, then you shouldn't have agreed to pay for those trashy, white Gucci loafers or your cookie cutter house with the same fake money in the first place.
<napoleon dynamite> IDIOTS! GOD!
Oh just shut up asshole.
Perhaps if you wax your wife's arms, you could take her places other than the shooting range.
well, maybe not. that face is a giveaway.
LINDA FUCKING GREEN..................
Easy on the simian lover.
Be nice, Tex, and folks here will be nice to you..........
+1
That was one of the funniest threads ever. Thanks!
Oh, I don't know, Gunslinger's rant had a certain style and panache.
You have been tolerable since you stopped the silver and jesus crap
I see, so you would rather see violence on a massive scale in the street.
Or rather, you are attempting to perpetuate the status quo, and use false moralistic arguments to shut down legitimate discussion.
A slave refusing to continue working for his master is an act of rebellion, no matter how many false moralistic claims you make. You just want people to continue to be slaves forever, and call anyone who would free themselves a hypocrite.
You disgust me.
Hi T,
Im quite surprised a rational poster as yourself does not see the lucid argument made by the Texan.
People that max our their CCs or live simply due to their HELOC (underwater) are indeed deadbeats. Why would we want to perpetuate debt running after debt running after debt in your (what used to be an awesome) country?
Driving your bought X5 sipping $5 lattes on the way to your golf club is fine if you can afford it. Not if youre simply faking the American Dream. I believe if more people had the mentality of "if i cant pay in cash, then i can't afford it" then the Western World wouldn't be in this clusterfuck of a mess.
Sabibaby
I don't usually respond...
But...
Who did pay...
Nobody pays, people literally won the lottery by buying a house in the right place at the right time and now they can live for free and say they own the home because the banks wrote the loan wrong and committed fraud. I guess if the bank commits fraud then you're elligable for a free house.
Wish I got in durring all this. I'd love to laugh at the people who pay rent and a mortgage..
There would still be a mortgage due, it would just no longer be secured by the property in question.
I dont see the problem here. If you don't pay your mortgage, let them foreclose. If they cannot, it is THEIR problem.
They will still sue for the mortgage, but it will be an unsecured debt. Take the emotion out of it, that is what business does. Think like them to beat them. Make a choice and live with the consequences. That is how it should be.
Logically looking at your argument, the same would apply if after 30 years of payments the bank could not clear your title cause they severed the security interest. Do you really think that they would be helping you to clear it? Doubtful. That would be your problem, and you would have taken care of theirs due to some sort of noble idiocy.
pods
+100
It is biz decision. The house ain't worth what is owed?
I made a bad decision. One option that is perfectly "legal" is stop paying on the losing asset. The bank gets their asset back. They made a bad decision as well.
The catch is this in my non-judicial state; if I am foreclosed they get the house and my credit gets blown up and we all hopefully learned something.
If I just walk away prior to foreclosure that is abandoning the home and I am liable for a lot more negative consequences.
I don't want the house, I ain't paying for it, please send me the "Notice of default" and I am gone. Until that notice officially starts foreclosure I am stuck.
Deadbeat? In someone else's eyes I may be.
What I will not be is stuck in a property that is upside down 3-5 years from today when a house will sell at its cash price of 35-40% less than today.
It is a business decsion.
Any other period in the past the bank would have processed the NOD in 90 days. Why are they waiting?
Ciao
PS-It aint HELOCd up from purchase price.
So that means everyone is stuck paying for it since you don't want to? Please don't take out anymore loans. I don't want to be responsible for your lousy decisions.
And why would everyone be responsible for paying for it?
It surely is not his fault if the system makes for collective punishment?
You might be right with your displeasure, but it is focused in the wrong place.
If you have a problem with the system, change it. Collectivizing guilt is one hell of a slippery slope towards there being limits on what you can buy, eat, screw, or drive.
pods
what the hell do you think I'm trying to do? I'm trying to get decietful American's to honor the deals they make wtf is wrong with that?
Well that is the first problem. What business of yours is it what kind of contract people enter into?
Do you also stand outside of car lots cursing folks who happen to buy the wrong car?
There are two parties that enter into a contract. There are terms that are acceptable to both parties, otherwise they would both not enter into said contract. One party has clearly not kept up their obligations of the contract. Yet you rail against the other to somehow behave as if they did?
If someone wants to default on a loan, taking the chance of ruining their finances, losing their home, and being responsible for a judgement, let them do so. That is what a free society is about. Clearly the authorities are not going to punish the other parties misdeeds. So people have taken it upon themselves to force the issue. I would rather see it happen that way then 30 years from now people having to pay a gajillion space credits to remove a lien on a house they so honorably paid the mortgage on, only to find out that they were right from the beginning.
pods
It's anyone's business with whom the contract is involved. Everyone should just default. I just thought that typically when you default you lose something. My bad though, I forgot that we're talking about America. From the beating I've taken already in this thread I'm clearly in the wrong and I don't have the energy to argue about it anymore.
And how are you responsible for it?
For the first 30 years of my life I didnt drive. I wasnt angry at all the people jamming up the golden gate bridge every morning, one to a care, that filled the bay with smog. That is life in the city my friend.
Your paying for it that is too funny.
What you are paying for is the trillions, fucking trillions, stolen by these banks and your telling me not take out any more loans.
too funny you are foolio
ciao
so you're trying your best to become a mini bankster.
Stop complaining about their fraud; your only bitch is that you haven't stolen as much as they have.
Punk
I want to hear from the first clown here that would not declare a biz bk?
Yeah, well, I don't buy it or YOU clown!
Those who are screaming the loudest are the same ones who
ran the home is an investment / atm/momey making biz scam.
Too transparent clowns.
if you can't honor your word don't play the game bitchf@ce foolio satanzan2084
Do you have a "Squatter's rights" law in the 'States? That would entitle anyone to move into any property, let alone the one you originally mortgaged, and claim it as your lawful domicile. Incredibly hard to shift squatters in the UK.
no. but it's a perfect time to set precedent now isn't it?
It depends on the state. In Ohio we have Adverse Possession. “squatter's rights" in legal jargon is adverse possession. The time required in Ohio is 21 years of notorious adverse possession. It is possible.