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Meet The Squatters: Here Are The Millions Of Americans Who Live Mortgage-Free For Up To 5 Years And Counting
The topic of Americans living mortgage-free in foreclosed homes on which banks do not have proper titles is nothing new - in fact we are surprised that there isn't a robosignature app for that...yet. Neither is the fact that this ongoing reverse capital transfer provides as much as $50 billion in "rental" income for those same squatters. And while the ethical arguments for strategically defaulting on one's mortgage can get very heated on both sides, one thing is certain: the ongoing foreclosure crisis is creating a new subclass of "entitled" people, who certainly enjoy living on the back of the banks, while not paying one cent, and not vacating the premises. According to a new article by CNNMoney, some of the excesses observed within this latest demonstration of unearned entitlement are truly staggering. To wit: "Charles and Jill Segal have not made a mortgage payment in nearly five years -- but they continue to live in their five-bedroom West Palm Beach, Fla. home....Lynn, from St. Petersburg, Fla., has been living without paying for three years....In Thousand Oaks, Calif., an actor has missed 30 payments, and still, he has not lost his home...." In other words, what were once isolated incidents are becoming an epidemic, and like it or not, are creating a massive capital shortfall in bank balance sheets (after all "assets" are supposed to generate cash in most cases), which will likely involve yet another broad taxpayer bailout of these same banks that now have no recourse to do much if anything to evict these same squatters who instead of paying their mortgage (or rent), prefer to purchase trinkets and gizmos. "Some 4.2 million mortgage borrowers are either seriously delinquent or
have had their cases referred to lawyers to pursue foreclosure auctions,
according to LPS Applied Analytics. Of those, two-thirds have made no
payments at all for at least a year, and nearly one-third have gone more
than two years."
The specifics, to anyone who has been following this festering issue which threatens to create even further class resentment, are well known:
These cases can go on and on. Nationwide, it takes an average of 565 days to foreclose on borrowers in default from their first missed payments to the final auction. In New York, the average is 800 days and in Florida, where the "robo-signing" issue is particularly combative, it's 807.
If they want to fight evictions hard, borrowers can remain in their homes even longer while their cases are being worked through.
The Segals have been doing that -- in court. They bought their home in 2003 with an adjustable rate mortgage. After a few years, their monthly payments tripled to $3,000, just as their home-inspection business was cratering.
The Segals want the bank to modify the mortgage so payments are affordable, and they think the court will agree that their lender put them into a toxic loan.
Surely, the Segals signed the dotted line under the gun:
"The evidence will show that we were defrauded," said Jill Segal.
Well, with no downside, and just an already worthless credit rating as the opportunity cost, everyone is rapidly realizing that strategic defaults are the way to go:
If they lose, of course, they'll finally have to leave. And, unfortunately, more than 50 months of missed mortgage payments hasn't translated into big savings.
"It's very hard to save," said Jill Segal. "Our company's billing is 90% off and my husband is only working about four days a week."
Lynn, who didn't want her last name used, purchased a two-bedroom on Tampa Bay in 1998 for $135,000.
As the waterfront property's value skyrocketed, eventually reaching $750,000, she refinanced twice (once to expand a business), and took out a second mortgage. She now owes more than $600,000 on the home, which is worth only $235,000.
Living in this foreclosure limbo is "Hell," Lynn said. "I feel like I'm locked in a box. I work for a financial organization and if this came out, it could cost me my job."
And why not? With banks not having to face the consequences of massive failure, why should deadbeats? Especially when there are such sensitive issues to consider as whether the next place one lives, the one where one will actually have to pay for a roof, has a favorable pet policy:
She's still hoping to negotiate the loan. In the meantime, small things
bother her. "A couple years ago, I lost my dog and I can't decide on
getting a new one," she said. If she has to move, she can't be sure
she'll go somewhere that allows pets.
In the meantime stories such as this one are rapidly becoming the new morality drama:
Ruben Martinez, a Staten Island, N.Y., man trapped in a particularly bad adjustable rate mortgage, stopped paying more than three years ago. His attorney, Robert Brown, has managed to stave off one foreclosure.
Martinez, still struggling to find work, has little in savings despite the missed payments. He's earning some income as a pastor and consulting for a non-profit family counseling organization.
"There's pressure on me every day," he said. "I have a wife, three daughters and two grandchildren. Where are we going to live?" To top of page
For now there has not been much dissent with this type of behavior. However, when banks openly turn the tables and make it all too clear that they have absolutely underreserved for this kind of behavior and will very soon need a TARP 2.0, funded by everyone else, but certainly not the squatters, according to whom they dont' have two nickels to rub together, the question will be: will the general population, and here we reference the increasingly more endangered middle class, blame the banks again... or will it turn on itself?
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Goldman Sachs, JPM, BAC, and Citi are the sqautters and they can stop squatting on my elected representatives and my government any time now.
I hope these mortgage squatters squat away --- at least the $50 billion that they aren't paying to the banks is being used on mainstreet.
two wrongs don't make it right.
This thread displays quite a lot of ignorance. Please educate yourself:
http://livinglies.wordpress.com/
If you are a mortgage holder of a non-fraudulent mortgage, great, lucky you. You have clear title to your home. If you are like me, and bought a small house well within my means, but the fraudulent actives by the lenders have made my investment worth noting due to clouded title (among many other things), how can you advocate I keep paying and not fight the lender in court?
i'm sure as hell not ignorant that there are many case by case examples.
in a challenge to your post, how about you present us with the actual numbers of those in situations like you ( i assume you are of the ilk that you described in your last sentence )?
or how about how many are those who had a legitamite title and continue to squat because the bank allows them to, because the bank gets a better deal never realizing the foreclosure?
your case is fraud and should be prosecuted as such. however, if you're living rent free and projecting/justifying your guilt onto the rest of us - because i sure as shit wish i didn't have to pay rent - you're barking up the wrong tree.
Did you take out a mortgage to buy a home from ~2000-2011? Chances are, more likely than not, it was fraudulent in one or more ways. I suggest you have it audited. Of course, I've seen a lot of solid mortgages from that time period as well… but the fraud being committed by brokers/banks/etc. in regards to mortgages, MBSs, illegal foreclosures, etc. was and is still rampant. Read through about the last 6-12 months of posts by Mr. Garfield. Even if taken with a grain of salt (as is always recommended), and only focusing on the facts presented makes this abundantly clear. As for other people not paying their mortgages… that's great. I would suggest that, at this point, people who ARE blindly sending their money to central bank mortgage servicers are causing me more harm by allowing these TBTF, above-the-law, institutions to continue to plunder and exist.
Incredible, yes. My neighbor stopped paying his mortgage, doctor bills and car loans and nothing has happened....he tells me he buys gold and silver coins with thaty money instead.
The problem is the rest of us have to pay for people who do this.
My suggestion is to bring back retired judges and clean out this backlog or house prices will continue to drop for 15, maybe twenty years.
Fuck the banks. Fuck them. The are traitors to this country and deserve to be hung. The communits took away my families home, now the banks are taking away 10 years of my hard labor. The jobs in my area disappeared because the government decided to close the base and left everyone jobless.
To make a long story short, the banks sabotaged a short sale, and have ruined my life. My solutions? Rent my home until it is foreclosed upon. They can rot in hell. They think that you can fuck with the American people without paying for it.
Fuck the banks. Fuck them. They are traitors to this country! and deserve to be hung. The communists took away my families home, now the banks are taking away 10 years of my hard labor. The jobs in my area disappeared because the government decided to close the base and left everyone jobless.
To make a long story short, the banks sabotaged a short sale, and have ruined my life. My solution? Rent my home until it is foreclosed upon. They can rot in hell. They think that you can fuck with the American people without paying for it.
The American people need to stand up and stop this. The banks are totally out of control and need to be stomped on.
I have believed and continue to believe this was the plan by TPTB from the beginning. When I say the plan, I mean specifically that regulators were not asleep at the switch. They knew the domino cascading effect of blowing a huge bubble in housing and letting it pop. We were losing our jobs to other countries that could do the same thing for less. The biggest expense and reason we could not compete anymore is the cost of housing. So how can we reduce the cost of housing and make it possible for our population to (better) compete globally. So how could they ensure that the cascade begins?
Give loans to people with no chance of paying them back, check
Create such loans that will double or triple in monthly payment in say 5 years, check
Construct astronomical amounts of new homes that there is no real demand for, check
Allow those so inclined to buy multiple houses they cannot afford and flip for profits, check
I think the end game is cheaper housing, and a workforce that can make less money and still enjoy the American Dream.....check
I have learned a lot in the couple years I have followed ZH, and would not be surprised if someone here can immediately refute my claim with solid evidence to support it. Please be so kind to enlighten me. Otherwise I stick with my belief that no one was asleep at the switch, this was intentional, and in fact may work in time to make us more competitive globally. Flame away.
Funny that you request someone to "immediatly refute" your claim with solid evidence to support it. Yet you offer no solid evidence supporting your claim in the first place.
Look around. Squatters rent is a side affair to what the central planners want in macroeconomic terms. Whats funny about wanting to hear a competing viewpoint?
Not only was no one asleep at the switch. This crisis was engineered. It was heavily advertised and promoted through mainstream media. There were lots of shows on TV such as Real Estate Ladder, Flip This House and so on. Realtors knew buyers couldn't pay. Buyers knew they couldn't pay. Banks knew buyers couldn't pay, but that didn't matter either, because the goal was to sweep assets out of weak hands. The financial industry understand bubbles, understands risk and manipulated the idiot politicians to make this happen. They hollowed out state retirement funds and financial assets, then stole the rest through money printing. Every step of the way had been by design and only the time schedule isn't well controlled.
A grand deflationary scheme making the the US Workforce competitive? Or a consumer and Real Estate (Res and Comm.) credit bubble the likes of which once deflated, the Petro-Dollar is replaced by a new world reserve currency?
If this show is following a script, I would not be surprised. And given CRE's pending debt collapse, the FED raiding its own employees' pension fund, soon private 401ks, a possible end of FED support of the stock market, comet Elenin etc. and so on; this show is just getting around to the third act.
I have believed and continue to believe this was the plan by TPTB from the beginning
Crooks are just not this smart. There is no "vast conspiracy", just small steps that look large in hindsight.
I have heard of alot of people doing just that. I feel that if people are not paying something toward the mortgage should be investigated. If found guilty of fraudulently not paying (but rather buying other items), I think they should have to pay a price. We the taxpayers pay for their unacceptable and irresponsible choices.
Investigated? No one has the resources to investigate/prosecute/jail millions of people. And this is not illegal to stop paying your mortgage. And I really want taxpayer funds to do that? Impossible. That's why the banks started the robo-signing scandals. Not enough resources to even complete the paperwork.
What a hoot! Seeing you assclowns bitch and bicker with one another over situations that don't even concern you. Just remember;
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded.
contradict yourself much?
+1
+1
My last words here. NWO FUCK YOU!!!
Millions of squatters living in homes without paying their mortgage is the title to this article.
Well, the banks shouldn't have hired criminals to run their companies!
A lot of these criminals are retired now or still working for these banking institutions. I saw an article about one financial institution and how the executives were paid multi-million dollar bonuses and in trade put multi-billions of bad debt on the company's balance sheet, destroying it. These people should all be in jail for fraud and probably a dozen other crimes I can't think of. A legitimate government would arrest these individuals and seize their all their assets. The Bananna Republic decides to turn its head and pretend that there is no fraud. Why? because most these goons are in on it!
There has been ONE prosecution - small player Lee Farkas of Colonial Bank "fame". I wonder if he forgot to pay someone off or he just wasn't too big to prosecute.
Fine by me. Let's just tax them on their free accomodation. I thought if you defaulted our friends at the IRS viewed the difference between the loan and current value as a gain and taxed you accordingly? Try telling them you ain't paying and see if a judge is so eager to quash that one.
They have until the end of 2012 with legislation preventing captial gains being applied in that situation. Look it up yourself.
Live example how the invisible hand works in manipulated markets:
By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was not part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good. It is an affectation, indeed, not very common among merchants, and very few words need be employed in dissuading them from it.
"God's work" if you will
One of the biggest problems is the uncertainty in the title this fraudclosure bullshit is causing. In Massachusetts and other states, judges have "undone" foreclosures. That's evil and wrong. When a judge passes title, even if fraud is involved, that title has to be sacrosanct. No do-overs or undos. When somebody gets fraudclosured upon, the bank gets the property free and clear, and if there was fraud, then the law needs to be firm that the victim of the bank gets cash damages, not their house back.
If the sanctity of title is not kept, you can never trust that a house that's been in foreclosure won't be pulled out from under the new buyer. That's disastrous and needs to be prevented.
If a doctor saws off your wrong leg, you get cash damages. They don't dig it out of the landfill and reattach it. Some things just can't be undone.
Haven't you been reading about how the titles are not clear to begin with; that when these mortgages were first packaged up the title and the mortgage were separated....by the banks?
In Massachusetts and other states, judges have "undone" foreclosures. That's evil and wrong.
No, it's justice and correct.
No time limit on fraud. That's a keystone of any modern legal system. If a title is bad, it's bad. Cash damages won't work - I'd want the house back and so would almost everyone.
Why would you side with a Godless immoral entity "a Bank", rather than people?
Lets set the record straight once and for all on this issue. IF....IF the bank you made the agreement with did not handle the paperwork right in any way then the "CONTRACT" is NULL AND VOID!! THATS THE L A W!! The bank is left with 2 choices. Issue a new contract or take the loss. This moral babble is bullshit. A contract is between 2 or more parties. If the contract is mishandled or corrupted in anyway from the original terms it is VOID period. Thus ends the lesson in contract law.
Dang. We paid off the house two years ago. I thought that was such a smart move at the time...
These "squatters" are doing us all a service... IF... we all stick to our guns and refuse to allow the predators DBA government make us pay the banks for "losses" sufferened in this way.
Do not feel envy when good things happen to others. I don't (except for "good things" made to happen by force or fraud). But these are not force or fraud. These are standard terms and practices on mortgages secured by real estate.
All mortgage loans from banks are FRAUD. The money they credited to your (or the sellers) account was created by a few keystrokes out of thin air. You were not lent someone's savings, and the bank produced nothing except FRAUD. The transaction was inherently a fraud, and it is only a common practice that most people do not treat those transactions as the fraud they are.
We MUST destroy these large banks and financial institutions, because the only alternative is... they own the world, just as anyone who can create money out of nothing can given several decades... without producing ONE THING of value.
Sink the corrupt titantic that enslaves us.
Four million homes @ $100K each, is 400 billion dollars. So if all these homes are really in legal limbo due to title errors, someone is eventually going to have to fess up to huge losses. I would really like to know who that will be. Is it the banks? Or perhaps the Fed is the real owner of these lemon loans?
Four million homes @ $100K each, is 400 billion dollars.
Yeah, then apply the leverage........
MERS affects 60 million homes. Average Mortgage - 225K (Internet).
= 13.5 trillion.
Too big to fix. Crash coming!!!
As the "squatters" income runs out, and it becomes clear that the $7 trillion in fiscal and monetary stimulus is gone, be sure to visit one important chart:
http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/djia19201940.html
Take special care to note where on this chart the Great Depression actually occurred. Notice how the chart then and now does not match up...but then subtract all the stimulus to discover where we are eventually headed.
Pray. Settle old arguments with family. Set aside some cash. Quit spending on useless tech crap. And then sharpen your machete in preparation for the obvious zombie apocalypse to come.
Just sayin'.
Cdad,Well said. Simple message.
As the "squatters" income runs out, and it becomes clear that the $7 trillion in fiscal and monetary stimulus is gone,
This fits with something I have thought about lately. Can money be created, used, then destroyed in such a way as to accomodate (temporary) dramatic upward shifts in its supply when needed only to be recalled and destroyed accordingly without a lingering debt?
And +1 on your post.
Well, with this general $7 trillion number I have given you, $2 trillion in monetary stimulus can be put back on bank balance sheets in the form of T bills [that is if and when the Fed decides to bring down its balance sheet], but not without creating a liquidity problem for the equity market.
As for $5 trillion in fiscal stimulus, that debt remains as it has been "spent" on things like Federal unemployment insurance and bridges to nowhere, by states as healthcare payments and general budget balancing, by unions, and on bailout deals that do not pan out at par value [ie GM, AIG, Fannie May, Freddie Mac]. The bulk of the fiscal stimulus will remain as debt owed by US taxpayers.
Check.
Check. well, gold and silver, actually.
Check-yeah.
Check. And learn to reload ammo and gain excellent marksmanship at an Appleseed near you.
The US needs to shake off its own "Greek Drama".
Get rid of the states that are oversocialized and underperforming.
The welfare template is being systematically applied to every part of our economy ! Housing, medicine, transportation, energy, utilities, food, employment, education ! The government class and their welfare clients drive all policy ! If you are so naive to think you can raise a family in the private sector....you are a willing member of the new underclass ! Don't forget to pay your taxes, give generously to charities and your religion and donate your free time to day care welfare brats ! I say we go on strike ! It's time for the silent majority to organize a "love in" and sit on their hands and wallets ! Let's all put on "Gandhi Gowns" and go barefoot to the public spaces, sit cross legged, shake our tambourines and chant ! Monedas 2011 "Don't worry ! Be happy !"
Or, keep working, producing and exchaning goods for goods in private, but appear to be on strike. That's the best combo. Get the best of both worlds. Starve THEM, not us.
Reposted from another thread:
by Yes_Questionson Sat, 06/04/2011 - 14:36
#1339558
Of all documents one signs to close a loan, there needs to be an affidavit signed by a Credit Officer of the bank (a senior executive) and the borrower that clearly states the ensuing loan balance will be Conjured Out of Nothing, and that both parties attest to this fact.
This universally mandatory document will be known as the CON Affidavit and will be made part of the public record accordingly, like a car title or the security instrument of a mortgage.
Ethics my ass; not in these transactions.
People also forget that the money that was used by the banks for these loans was created out of thin air. I.E. It wasn't their money used for the loan, but money out of thin air.
So money out of thin air used to create a fraudulent loan (and we'll forget all the predatory, pump and dump thinking) that no chain of title exists....belongs to the bank and not the person who took out the loan on good faith only to have everything crumble around it, not to mention be overpriced?
So key points.
-The loan wasn't the banks money.
-The loan has no chain of title.
They've profited off the fraudulent screwjob long enough. While it isn't great to give free houses to everybody when compared to everyone else, the alternative is much, much worse...and that's to give these banksters even more free gifts, alongside the monopoly they own, and real world economy they sabotage at every turn.
Oh yeah, and they got bailouts (read more free money) from gov'ts, that are now in hock and about to go insolvent.
The only real money involved are the people who paid the loan from actual work (until they stopped, but most still do pay their fraudulent loans) as well as taxpayers who bailed out these entities fraudulent activities.
So no, the best of a bad situation is to give those living in the home, or the ones that WERE before foreclosure the house back free and clear. I'm not in this boat, as I have no loan. But I don't see any better way.
Demolishing homes is pretty stupid, and only phd economist dogma thinkers would say otherwise.
Glass-Steagall
People also forget that the money that was used by the banks for these loans was created out of thin air. I.E. It wasn't their money used for the loan, but money out of thin air.
My friend, they don't forget that which they never knew. Although, I get the feeling 13.9MM persons (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm) are beginning to ask.
Here we have a site where a sizeable number of posters talk of rope, guillotines, Guantanamo, lightposts, etc. for the bankers and the leadership that serves them, yet on this article the greatest number of junks go to people who are finding fault with another element of this failing society who thinks it is entitled to a free ride, and whose rationalizations and justifications sound eerily familiar to what Jamie and Lloyd say.
If somewhere out there is a renter and a saver, and the only thing keeping him from putting his family into its own home is the fact that the market hasn't cleared, he might not take any more kindly to Jill, Charlie and Lynn than he would the bankers. He might start thinking about where he could get some extra rope, figuring if society is going to be made right, fair and just, ALL the fraud and false sense of entitlement has to be swept away.
And I cannot help but wonder....if a roving horde stopped by "Jill and Charlie's Place", plopped down on the couch to watch TV, or built a bonfire in the front yard, albeit in a polite and non-threatening way, would Jill and Charlie expect the police to help? Would the police help?
First, I do not blame the bankers or government for where I sit in life... yep, I signed the papers, and I will be out on my ass when foreclosure is complete. I will not fight the procedings, I feel no sense of entitlement and I feel not animosity toward the bank for "allowing" me to be ignorant of the financial world, how debt really works, or anything I probably should have known. I got a public school education and went into aerospace engineering instead of finance, enitrely my fault (but that's another discussion).
Here's why I'm squatting... Until the bank takes possession of the property I have a legal right to stay here. Until the law changes, that is just how it works, legally so get over it. I didn't realize that the bank could only take the house, and was scared out of my mind when I lost my job, that they would clean my bank account out... hum, more ignorance on my part. But the mortgage I got into is a "no recourse", which apparently means they cannot touch my 401k, or take my car, or take my furniture (unless I leave it in the house when they take possession)... NO RECOURSE, meaning all they can take is the house. And since I am currently in possession of the home, I can stay here. When they give me notce, I will vacate, promptly.
Again, I am not squatting because I feel entitled, I am squatting because it makes the most financial sense being on unemployment and not having found work (yeah, just go find a job... say the people with jobs)...
If the roving horde stopped on my lawn, I might sit with them for a while, and ask them to leave... if they didn't, you bet your ass I'd get the cops involved... legal possession again... If a roving horde wanted to strip the copper out of the house, yep, I'd stop them...
You see. While I do not feel I own the house anymore, I at least feel an obligation to protect any value the house might still have on the market... I don't plan of trashing the place, but in my case, I have a VA loan... which means I will have a nice capital gains hit next year for the "gift" of the difference in the sale price and what I owe, that the VA covers... yep, I'm still going to pay my "rent"... so... bring on the rope...
BTW, I cashed out the last of my 401ks to pay off my credit cards and close the accounts... you can call ALL us squatters deadbeats if you like... but you probably have a job don't you?
I think that the term "deadbeat" applies to someone who borrows money with no intention of repaying it. (Like Uncle Sam). It doesn't apply to someone who borrows money and is unable to repay due to bad luck or circumstances beyond their control.
What you are doing seems perfectly reasonable to me. If the bank wants you to leave, then they should foreclose. It would be really interesting to know why the banks are being so slow to foreclose. I can think of three reasons:
1. They may not have the legal right to forclose due to MERS and title problems. If so, it is their own fault. They were the housing professionals and it was their duty to make sure the loan contracts were legally correct.
2. Possibly foreclosing would force them to recognize losses, which might put them out of business. And the executives would like to keep collecting their multimillion dollar bonuses for as long as possible. So maybe they are just kicking the can along, desperately hoping that house prices will recover before anyone notices that they are bankrupt.
3. They are afraid that if they start foreclosing and putting the houses back on the market, it might cause housing prices to drop further, causing even more people to have underwater mortgages, leading to more defaults. I think that there may be a lot of people who have mortgages which are just barely underwater who are still making payments. But if their home prices were drop by another 20 or 30 percent, they might be tempted to walk away, causing even more losses for the banks.
I think the banks and Congress are mainly responsible for the housing mess. The banks had the duty to make reasonable home loans with sensible down payments based on conservative estimates of home values. And they totally didn't do this. Instead they made zero down payment, 110% loan to value, loans with low teaser payments for the first few years, etc. This was completely irresponsible and it caused home prices to soar, tricking people into paying unreasonable amounts for homes.
I would encourage you to never give up hope of finding a job. The wife of a friend of mine is an engineer who was laid off and was unemployed for about 18 months. She had just about given up hope of finding a job. She would interview at companies and they would tell her: "We'd like to hire you, but we just don't have any openings now." Then a friend suggested that she try looking for contracting positions, so she went back to one of the companies who had turned her down and asked them if they had any contracting openings. They said: "Oh! We didn't know you were interested in contracting. Yes, we do have some openings." So she was immediately hired and now her contracting job has been converted to a full time position. So in her case, the magic word was "contracting" and if she had known it, she might have been hired long before. Don't know whether this will help in your case, but in any event it does help to be flexible and persistent.
I won't give up, but it's really hard to hide that I don't want to be a battery in the Martix anymore, so corporate jobs are going to be hard for me to land... contracting is certainly the best bet, and I am pursuing that route, but it's too late on the house...
There has been some great outcomes however... I found ZH and learned far more than I ever really wanted to, and then some, about our money, debt, and how the game is rigged... I'm not as ignorant as I was when I signed that mortgage paperwork, and would NEVER do it today, even if I had a job paying twice as much as I was making...
My girlfriend is a realestate appraiser, and she's leaning more toward 3 (and a little 2). Appraisers, right after the "recovery" started, were reluctant to put "declining" in their appraisals because we were suppose to be "recovering"... now, they can't hide it anymore, she says she has to put "declining" on 9/10 appraisals, and our market is suppose to be fairly stable... Essentially that reluctance just shifted the price plummet.
Although I started learning about money a few years ago, ZH has expanded my knowledge exponentially. Wish I'd known all this long ago...
+1 on the foreclosure analysis. I still think the MERS thing is a huge issue that they're trying to sweep under the rug. I get re-fi offers nearly daily from my TBTJ bank and they harass me constantly if my mortgage isn't paid by the 10th (I'm self-employed and often have to pay later than the 1st of the month).
+1 for the job thing too. It's helpful to do some creative out of the box thinking in this economy.
At the end of the day....the banks knew the buyers would default. Most of the buyers knew they could not afford the house...they thought they could sell before the SHTF.
Many buyers knew that they could not afford the house ...they were speculators who were hoping to sell the house in a few years and make a nice tidy profit (because house prices never fall) or do the free piggy bank by refinancing and taking cash out. Like I said, they never thought the value of the house would fall (Idiots) and they would always have a free out by selling.
Now I believe both should receive some type of penalty. For the speculative buyer he should get hit with a low credit score and some type of scarlet letter that says I am a financial moron and take heed if you dare loan money to me again. You better charge be a high interest rate in the future as I am a high risk to defalut.
The banks...well that is another story. They own congress so they pretty much passed the bill onto the taxpayers. What should have occurred is that any bank that took TARP money should have agreed to replace the Board of Directors and all 1st and 2nd level executives within 2 years because they are also financial morons and they should not be running a bank.
Everyone knows our government is corrupt with too many imbedded criminals in the pockets of other criminal politicians. We elect politicians (criminals) who give free passes to their friends. They scam the people (you & me). We re-elect a new politician (criminal or not) and the cycle repeats itself. They get rich, while we give "them" our money! Until we change our system, nothing will change. If we could elect people who are honest and abide by The Constitution, we would still be a productive country.
Instead, we are ran by a bunch of money grubbing sell-out whores who change the rules to continue financing scams!
We've got a great Idea to have some fun with your personal bank lord (besides going deadbeat) :
Send your next mortgage payment in pennies! Can you imagine JP Morgue receiving a box with 170,000 pennies (all unwrapped of course) ? Priceless!
http://www.silverdoctors.com/
Word to any all; "If it flies, floats or fucks- it is cheaper to rent that own"
To you scumbag squatters: add "house" to another thing best rented.
So, let's say I was the CFO of a publicly traded company (remember corporations are “people” too, legally), and the manufacturing center of my company was located in/on a piece of property that had a “mortgage”, and the property had lost 20-30% of its value since purchase, and was unlikely to regain the original value... I have...
1) a moral obligation to honor the debts the company has incurred?
2) a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholder to maintain their share value, even if it means screwing over the bank or mortgagee?
Let's say on top of this, the company had lost our primary client, so there is a shortage of funds to pay the property obligation. What do I do? Do I shut down production so I can relocate, prior to legal action on the mortgagee's part? Do I simply “get another client”, out of thin air?
My real question for all of the “pay your mortgage deadbeat” types out there screaming is, why is it a moral obligation for a real, flesh and blood person to pay their debts, when we, as a society, allow these other type of “people” run around with no moral compunction at all with violating agreements?
And why is it any different giving that CFO a golden parachute when he mismanaged the company funds and got them in the situation in the first place, than it is letting the squatter ride out the foreclosure proceedings?
If you look to others to define your 'morality', if you say the other guy is doing it so can I then we are truly lost ... Do I really need to tell the truth? ... Clinton and Weiner don't need to, why do I? Today, one can justify almost anything.
Everyone looks to others for their definition of morality. Morality is a social construct, animals have no concept of morality, unless they're social creatures. You can try saying morality is defined in some kind of religious context, but even then, it is still a social construct of people that believe a higher being gave them the "rule".
That said... when you have a society that says it is ok for some "people" (i.e. corporations) to have a single social responsibility (fiduciary responsibility above all motives), while the vast majority of the smaller, less powerful flesh and blood people are suppose to live by a completely different social morality, then you have a very interesting idea of morality.
I'm not trying to say that the rotting corpse that use to be our social morality is alive and kicking. That horse was shot dead when we gave corporation "citizenship" under the 14th Amendment. Then they shot the dead horse and dragged its dead body through the street in 1913 with the Federal Reserve Act.
If we say that the most powerful "people" in our society have a moral obligation to seek nothing over profit, how is it ALSO a moral obligation for the less powerful to operate on a different premise?
The lender which made that loan did a very different underwriting analysis before the funding. They likely made a 70% LTV loan in the first place and it was not for 30 years. And, as long as the business generated income, they would have had to make the payments or lose the ENTIRE business. In your presentation, you present an example of everything going wrong for the lender. Sure it does happen, very infrequently, and that is why loan reserves are relatively small.
What is happening in the residential market is that people who made bad decisions on purchases are not honoring their obligations to pay. They chose to buy the real estate rather than AAPL. they needed a home theater, swimming pool, granite countertops, and six bathrooms. Now they won't pay for what they bought and claim that the bank should have know that they were really deadbeats who would try to beat their creditors. Why should they send any of their income to a creditor stupid enough to believe their promise to pay? Keep that income, live in a property for no cost, go on a vacation.
I bought a house, just as I've bought shares. I paid for them. Some went up in price, some down. Can Obammie give me my money back on the losing sides of the investments?
Congrats on being better off than MOST of the population... Yes, the sheeple buy stupid crap... I can't tell you how many times I've laughed at the guy buying $2400 rims for a car, but says he can't affort to go to college...
Here are the rims I bought... an aerospace engineering degree... a house at the peak of the market... $20k in credit card debt paid off by living with my parent AFTER college for two years... a car that I hold the title to... some furnature... yeah, stuff, but stuff I needed and stuff I was told since I was a child I "needed". Some of it was needed... a lot of it was shear waste...
But how about some perspective for all those that say the borrow should have known better... While I was in public school, I never learned who the Federal Reserve was. No economics teacher ever explained debt, or how money is "created". My parents didn't understand it well enough to teach me. I go to college and study my ass off learning what a derivative is, not the financial vehicle type, the calculus kind... There are no requirements for economics 101. How was I suppose to learn, if there is no one telling me I should learn... that's what financial managers jobs are (they get paid to understand it, so we don't have to)... yeah, sounds dumb, but if we're in a society where everyone has their roles, and things have grown so complex that no one person can "get it" all... what do you expect from the borrower? Do you know how DHCP works, the IP protocol stack? You should, you use the internet... same argument.
Yes, I'm a little bitter. While I was busting my ass trying to learn a skill I thought our society might need, there were these jack-offs financial managers wrecking my parents retirements, and doing market research on how many commercials it would take on the network channels to get 75% of the population to buy into the latest financial bubble... (all getting paid more than I ever could to boot).
How many times have you heard the same song on the radio for two weeks before you finally start thinking it sounds good? How many times did the MSM say "they aren't making any more land"... same song long enough... people are paid to make us believe in "need", called marketers.
Glad I skipped to the end and read your post. All these folks in the know seem to think it's an inherent trait you're born with but in reality it's something one must find on their own. When you grow up on Atari, Nintendo, XBox, Playstation, MSM, porn, Education systems designed to self destruct and only provide the status quo, and parents who don't know any better it's not easy. So much bullshit to sort through it's easy to see why people buy into the system. We're born into the system and to look at it from an outsiders perspective takes some doing, some figure it through sheer luck, others are taught, while others seek it out. By the time some of us figure it all out, it's too late.
Exactly, most of us were born into the Martix. I lost my job in Oct, and that night I was up puking from stress ("what am I going to do to save the house")... it was at that moment, the chill of the bathroom floor, the indignity I felt, that I realize what the movie was about, and I had just been unplugged, ejected, disposed of as waste.
I guess I could say I got lucky with some pretty good tools for learning on my own, and I spend my free time trying to figure out what a "derivative", mortgage backed security, and the other obfuscation mechanisms our financial system used to steal the wealth (output) of the batteries in the system.
Now that I've started to get an understanding, beans, bullets, and bullion is my favorite ZH tag line... that's all I will invest in now.
Educate yourself and be independent. Well done falardea.
Almost nobody knows how to live outside of the grid. What will happen and how will people react when there is no electricity, water, petrol, ATM's or supply to the supermarket? The grid is as vulnerable as the financial system. You think ahead of the crowd and your skills and knowledge will be invaluable when the SHTF.
Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Most people don't know what the "grid" is, or its associated complexity and vulnerabilities..... or the impact it has on "productivity".......
I check in at this site every other day or so, I like it because it gives you a nice "verified" heads up regarding global energy supply "system" issues. Note the looming summer power grid shortage in China, Japan and guess what Northern Europe.....
Another interesting occurrence is the systemic diesel fuel shortage in the Middle East.... and upcoming grid curtailments.
http://www.energyshortage.org/main
http://www.energyshortage.org/reports/view/431 (May 31 Europe report)
so you seriously thought those ballooning home prices were actually sustainable growth?
Not exactly, I bought about 6-9 months after the peak in my area, just as the ball was starting to roll the value of my house down $50k... thinking I was buying the fucking dip (BTFD), or close to it... did I know enough to see that we were about to go into a major meltdown, no... should I have... I refer you to some of my other comments here.
"Can Obammie give me my money back on the losing sides of the investments?"
Depends. Are you a banker? An automaker? Are you Too Big To Fail? How much do you contribute to political campaigns? Do you own a successful business? Are you willing to do anything and everything to gain a monetary advantage over others? Do you embrace the Capitalist creed of profits over people?
We want to know if we're dealing with a "winner" or a "loser".
And if you're a "winner", you should already have plenty of money, in which case, we'd like to hear from ya.
Sincerely,
Obama Staff Member, Office of the Kleptocracy
This is not going to end well for the US, not at all.
If you are paying you mortgage on time and want to stay honest and fulfil your obligations toward the contract, consider your self collateral damage.
If you lost your job, bought at nearly the peak of the housing bubble, and had to make decisions between feeding the family OR paying the mortgage, consider yourself collateral damage.
We're all collateral damage in a system where a corporation is considered a "person" and the daily effort of the flesh and blood is simply there to power the Martix.
I did not choose the red pill, I was ejected from the matrix.
But, it is great to live in a country where you have that choice
Yes, it is nice they haven't re-instated debter's prisons yet. It is nice to be able to lease property from the government... until they choose to take it by eminent domain... to bring in a big pharm company, who later pulls out of the deal...
What a country... like your choices for president?
I'll give you that our "choices" are better than most third world countries... maybe. But don't confuse freedom with choices.
Debtors' prisons will be making a comeback.
I contend being a "a dead beat" is truely patroitic.
NY was bought for stupid glass beads, entire country was stolen from the Indians, the White House was built with stolen labor (slaves).
How about this idea. Everyone stop paying your mortgages. Keep the cash to the side, and it doesn't work out, pay the banks. Who knows, you might win big.
Working on the White House paid better than hunting bush meat for the local King.
So, I bought a house in 1998 for 150K. Lived in it and made the payments. Now owe about 130K.
Four years ago some dumb crap paid $750K for a house down the street. I asked Alice, the wife, can you believe they were that stupid? And a bank made a $650K loan to help them buy their dream. The bank actually paid out that much money.
Now the borrowers are not so happy. House value declines. I come home and talk to the wife. "The folks who paid that $750K are in foreclosure, we can make their payments on top of ours. Sorry we can't afford a vacation like they had." Alice and I get to pay their mortgage with our taxes and the "stupid" people are making no payments still live in the house. The "stupids" have the money for the payments, they just decided to shaft the bank.
The problem is that the prudent cannot shaft the Obammie taxes. Until everyone has a net worth of the "stupids", (zero) the Obammies will not be satisfied. "Some people are hurtin'", don't you know.
The "stupids"... There is no way the bank gave them the loan without an appraisal... so the "market" indicated their house was "worth" that, on the market, at the time.
How many times have you heard a song on the radio and wondered how it got any airtime, it sucked... just to find yourself tapping your foot or bobbing your head to it a couple weeks later? Maybe if you're a little older this won't be such an obvious example of the sway repitition has on the human mind, weak or strong. (our music choices seem to plateau in our late twenties, mine did).
So, during the "bubble", while it was inflating, how many times did the talking heads in the MSM talk up that value in investing in property? Yeah, maybe a leap since it required some investment and a song doesn't, but the point is, there are people paid more than I could have dreamed of as an engineer to simply "sell" you a need in your life. That is their job... there have been institutes that have done billions of dollars in research to figure our how to pry that dollar out of your hand, no matter how smart you are (just different tools).
The "stupids" as you call them, probably are not that stupid, just naive in terms of understanding debt, bubbles, and our current casino financial system.
And why wasn't a "fair and balanced" view presented? How much "air time" did people like Reggie Middleton get before the bubble popped? The only voice I remember was Nouriel Roubini, and he was lambasted for his views ...
This goes much further than naive people who don't understand. It stinks of PROPOGANDA..... This started with the Dot com, I remember watching and saying it was nuts, that it wasn't solid growth, but "paper" growth, thinking it was a repeat of the 1920's... I have been saying this since 1995 and the "real correction" still hasn't occurred. I wonder if I made a error in judgement!<sarc> It is amazing how long this "run" has been.
I had many first hand depression stories drilled into my head as a kid.... Don't live beyond you means. Save for a rainy day. Things can go bad real fast, make sure you have back up plans. Realestate is NOT always a good investment...... remember you have to take into account the "cost" of interest. Don't buy it unless you can pay cash..... If you have to borrow PLAN AHEAD and pay the bank back ASAP. If you can't pay cash for it, do you really need it. etc etc.....
Interesting how these lessons were "forgotten" and those who tried to pass them on, and caution others are still are being ridiculed and shunned in main stream media....
Those are all great one line lessons that my parents, and most parents didn't pound into the heads of their children <no sarc>. They have been forgotten.
The interestng thing I think that gets forgotten in this argument is, what was your fallback, where was your savings? 401k, IRA? What happened to your savings when the shit started hitting the fan... you were paying in, why did it not appreciate in value when you left it in the "competent' hands of your financial manager? What do you mean you lost your shirt? You should have known is all I keep hearing... bah.
They forgot about the family farms and people not having bank accounts in the country back in the 1920s... so they couldn't just grab the power then... live an learn... now, there are no family farms, most have been lost to the farming bubble of the 80s. Remember farm aid? Our savings have been locked up in these financial vehicles that have financial incentives to leave alone... or pay dearly...
On top of having our wealth "managed" away for us, the marketing machine has convinced us that garbage has value. I say an iPad, Android, and any electronic "device" is garbage the day it is made... it is alread obsolete, the new design is just about to roll out. The fact is most consumer electronics are just pieces of overmolded plastic, copper, and glass, glued onto fiberglass, stuffed into even more plastic, and marketed as the thing you've been missing all your life. Our society has been geared toward the perpetual consumption of garbage (consumer products, it's even in the name).
Those in our media that try to wake the sheeple (of which I shamefully feel I was a part of) are ignored because ultimately they are trying to get people to understand how insane the system is... If you wake the sheeple, you lose control of them.
And don't get me started on patenting seeds, fish... well anything not already claimed by another multinational corp... even if it has been around longer than corporations have been people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azadirachta_indica#Patent_Controversy
Why are you making your neighbor's mortgage payments?
To prop up the failed bank that's already got access to interest-free loans from the Fed and a few trillion dollars from the government.
Because we all know you NEED that bank to survive. You lose everything if the bank fails.
Hate your neighbor. He's the enemy. Love the bank. It's your friend.
Don't worry. If anything bad happens, you'll be able to go over to the bank's place for a meal. It'll help your wife change a tire in the rain. That's the kind of things banks do.
People just suck.
Here's an exercise for everyone. Look up what a "deadbeat" is on CreditCards.com... You might not use it so freely in this context.
Read more: http://www.creditcards.com/glossary/term-deadbeat.php#ixzz1OxhJAZNd
Compare credit cards here - CreditCards.com
Have a friend who just "bought" home on waterfront, in Keys, Fl, and basically purchased $880K for $500K. It was a foreclosure, and went through the mill in 2 weeks, where there was a foreclosure court that expedited it over the weekend, for it was fast tracked. Now the guy who was foreclosed on, offered my friend $20K to get out, for he is going to Appeal the decision of the proxy-court. As a result, the Bank is not accepting any money for mortgage,from anyone- and so, my friend is living in this home, in limbo. no mortgage payment, nada.
The system is heavy beyond the point where it can not longer bend- it will break
They do. It's called oPad for iPad.
I'll takes sides with squatters here.
And no I don't care about anyone's view of scruples, morality, afterlife, or any of that bullshit.
Christ complimented the unjust steward for cutting deals with his master's debtors before he was let go. You christians should go read it. Luke 16.1
http://niv.scripturetext.com/luke/16.htm
...very good scipture and a perfect offering of it, to go with those on the dole, dead beats and bank manager(s) etc... Good to see you understand the Laodicean reality of the prophetic strong delusion upon ...oh, um... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0
http://bible.cc/mark/4-34.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6uzAyODqzM
...don't you just love those Fasci, behind the flags, made to look like columns.
...that's the New World Order Great Wal Mart of China Commie Pink Houses.
I made millions selling toxic loans. I do'nt give a fuck about all you stupid assholes that thought the RE market would keep going up! Capitalism works that way. To sum up, I won, you lost.....................
...oh, how's it going Cain? Long time no see. Still not your brothers keeper I see ...and yer still building those pyramid tomb things all over the place too huh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sAm5UCJ9vA
Don't believe in the fairy tale called "the bible".
But Cheap Trick is Kool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't believe in the fairy tale called "the bible". But Cheap Trick is Kool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't believe in the fairy tale called "the bible". But Cheap Trick is Kool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are one of those who will burn in hell.
A lot of people here are dissing the defaulters. Here is my opinion.
I am an advertising agency owner. People come to me to learn the best and most efficient way to advertise their business to their customers. How do you find those customers, how do you reach them, how do you explain the benefits to them, what do they need and want, etc., etc. I have to know, understand, and pay for demographics and research groups, media costs, human psychology, and so forth.
If you know how to advertise and market your business already, you don't need me.
I am not a financial wizard. All I want to know about buying a house is how much I will have to pay and for how long, how much are taxes and insurance, etc..
I don't go to the doctor and tell him how to perform surgery on me - that's his field of expertise and I expect him to know - so I don't have to go to medical school myself.
I don't go to the banker and tell him how much he's going to lend me and why, I count on him to use his industry knowledge and expertise to analyze the crieria properly, based on what's good for me and good for his bank. That's his business. Advertising is mine.
The industry professionals failed here, not the buyers. The banker/mortgage lender has a fiduciary responsibility to himself, his customers, employees, shareholders, and the community to do his job correctly and effectively.
Either you are worthy of your profession and position or you are a fraud and phony who will blame everyone else for your professional failures.
I lay the blame for this debacle squarely where it belongs: on the mortgage and finance professionals who jumped the shark in order to garner fees.
Just one person's opinion.
Judging by the number of junkers who junked Shell for having a moral code what does it say about the bulk of the population of this site.
First Shell Game I applaud you for doing the right thing that is rare these days. The bulk of the freeloading bagfuckers who are using the crisis to live free and easy will find out soon enough that your "revolutionary" ideals are nothing more than an excuse to be a deadbeat.
The interesting thing is the destruction of this moral code which bound people to the social contract. The fact that many people around the world find it easy to negate their own responsibilities and are not paying for what they duly signed up for sends a far more dangerous message than any QE3, "banksters are evil" discussion.
It is a sign that the zombie nation has awoken and they are hungry. When you are finally turfed out on your lazy asses for breaking your contract what will you do.
I would say that day is going to be one scary day in the Western World. Those of us who try to live by a moral code will face a wall of zombies so high there won't be enough bullets to take you all out as you come up our driveways looking for food, revenge, etc.
Thus, I suspect that we will have to defend ourselves as a community not as a single homeowner.
But alas, since there are only about 10 people left who actually own their own home now that defense will be challenging.
Bigger guns, bigger bitchez, bigger gold, bigger granades
Lock and load neighbours
That day has arrived
Thank you for very good article Tyler, you are right, again...
check the actual state of forex markets on
http://www.dukascopy.com/tradercontest/?action=blog&trader=SkarakX
Serves the fukking banks right. But unfortunately, it also fukks the honest and upright.
Community, values, future...Well done Japan.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2001984/Japan-tsunami-earthquake-Pictures-recovery-3-months-later.html
I'm going to love it when all these squatters are finally delt with. Yes, free society and hence they can do what they wish with their contracts however the fallout for the squatters will be significant. And I hope they squirm as..."which will likely involve yet another broad taxpayer bailout of these same banks that now have no recourse to do much if anything to evict these same squatters who instead of paying their mortgage (or rent), prefer to purchase trinkets and gizmos"
So again, I've got to foot the tax bill for these people. And as such, I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
Did you just skip to the end and dump your crap on the discussion, like a baboon at the zoo throwing his shit? Did you read the comments from some of us squatters? I DARE you to read all of my previous comments in this thread, and come back...
How is your mental affinity any different than that of your nemesis the squatter, buying gizmos and trinkets? Do you really think you said something unique?
I didn't go out buying gizmos and trinkets. I was an engineer that lost my job because the trinket we made wasn't selling in market... hum? My fault?
Tard.
"She's still hoping to negotiate the loan. In the meantime, small things bother her. "A couple years ago, I lost my dog and I can't decide on getting a new one," she said. If she has to move, she can't be sure she'll go somewhere that allows pets."
It appears that our "squatters" have their priorities slightly misaligned.
the priorities issue is how the deadbeats got in trouble in the first place...
I afraid not. The real issue is how they deal with the trials of everyday life. Do you seriously want to take on the responsibility of providing for those who make poor decisions?
Where does it end? When all you have is gone...and "they" have it?
The trials of everyday life are better outside the Matrix...
You take on the responsibility for those that make poor decisions every time you pay your taxes to cover the bills Congress signed you up for. Did you need a new stealth fighter? Did you need a study of how many alcoholic beverages it takes to get a college girl to have sex... no (maybe the second one) but you paid for it. Whos poor decisions were those... not mine.
I was an engineer who lost his job for a "negative attitude", code for I pissed off the boss and he couldn't get me to quit by riding my ass, and he couldn't find cause. I had a "negative attitude" because he made some engineering calls that I though might compromise the safety of our product. I got a "negative attitude" when the team pushed through 60+ hours a week for 8 months to get a project completed he had oversold, made the deadline, and still had to take a 10% pay cut, to later find out he made his $250k year end bonus... he could have taked our pay cuts out of his bonus and still had >$200 going in his pocket... way to reward the producer...
We had a running joke on the team too, "what time on Friday is he going to come around asking us to work tomorrow"... that's how often there was an "emergency" that he produced, that needed to be fixed...
Sure, I made a poor decision to buy a house in the first place... but I'll refer you to all of my previous comments... did you read any?
And how do you deal with the trials of everyday life? (by prioritizing; in this case, keeping up with the jonses was more important than ensuring your child had an education without debt or the prospect of a job)...
And no, I'm no fan of moral hazard... I see it for what it is... regardless of how cleverly disguised.
where is banker patriotism of these mortgage deadbeats if they won't move in to the van down by the river and instead just live in their homes that are in legal limbo? /snark off
We are all renting from Uncle Sam, even though my house
is paid off, paying $8000/year for property and school
taxes making this looks like a rent.
And who said that taxes
are staying flat, taxes rising each year, they are milk
people like cows. ZH should find something about Healthcare
I mad on those f****rs also.. Rising rates every year by
6-10%
pretty soon I'll not afford this rip-off schema, $14k a year
and you
you have to beg them to cover some procedure and pay
$500/day,
if I get in the Hospital? Then what for I'm paying those
scammers then? I only paying because I'm afraid to lose a
house if something horrible happened. F*CK American
Healthcare. So you can add 8k + 14k that's $22k a year
to stay in the house, that's of course not including all other insurances.
we going to be taxed to breathe, that's coming next.
@greeny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdaCnZSLWpc&feature=related
Hey Greeny, you're right, you are only renting from Uncle Sam... look up the New London eminent domain case... they took these peoples land to give to a private developer, trying to bring in Pfizer... who later bailed on the deal... the land is still sitting undeveloped... with no increase tax revenue, which was the whole purpose in the first place.
Just wow on the number of posts bashing the squatting "deadbeats". Maybe there are boatloads of people who can pay but don't but I have yet to meet anyone who just decided to screw the banks.
Anecdotal, but still: I personally know a number of people who are/were unable to pay their mortgage or are considering not paying. I am among them. Every single one of them are in financial dire straits because of job loss or serious reduction in income due to the economy (and the inability to find another job), divorce, g/f left, spouse died, or major medical problems. Of these people, several were already living on a fixed or very tight income and the increase in fuel and food prices have hit them hard.
Of these folks, none of them live high on the hog, none of them have high-end amenities in their homes and although some bought homes during the bubble, they were living within their means and fully capable of paying until troubles struck. None of these people speculated on RE, nor do they live in McMansions; they have modest homes ($225M and under) and live modest lifestyles. None of these care that they're upside down except for the fact that they can't sell their homes.
All of these folks self-imposed austerity when troubles hit. Many of them drained their 401ks and IRAs to meet obligations. A couple of older ones are hanging on to a bit of retirement funds so they have something for the future.
Every one of these folks are hard working, non-quitting types who live within their means and who have always met their financial obligations. Every one has exhausted every avenue to keep meeting obligations. They tried to get their bank to help (some repeatedly) or work with them and were turned down. Those who stopped paying did so after great personal angst and many sleepless nights.
This stuff is happening to all sorts of really decent and honest people who tried to do everything right, and who had no hand in creating the financial disaster in this country. Their biggest mistake was trusting The System and being ignorant of how the world really works. Yeah, a few years ago, I'll admit, I might have been one of those who hated on the "deadbeats" and I never thought it could happen to me. But in the last ~5 years, I've been hit with numerous humbling troubles, and the hits just keep on coming. Like someone else mentioned, I was pretty much thrown out of the Matrix.
So for all you haters, we're not all loser deadbeats. I sincerely hope you never have to taste humble pie.
Fight for the future every day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-io-kZKl_BI&feature=related
You know, life is full of choices. You are trying to excuse (in advance) your weakness. Some of us have experiended divorce, and managed to rebuild their lives. I have been there. Post divorce, I was broke with no job and no money but I did have friends and family. First got a job (terrible, but came with a paycheck) then a friend rented me the house that he was selling, then I ended up buying the house.
This is just one example. There are many more. I am not a "hater", I am a surviver and have faith in my ability to fight for success! I do not give up.
I wish you strength...
Whoa there pal. I'm not excusing anyone's weakness. I have plenty of weaknesses but giving up is not one of them. I am and have been rebuilding my life--essentially starting over from scratch--since I came to the stark realization that things weren't going back to the way they used to be. I'm struggling, yes, and working harder for less than I ever have in my life, and getting laughed at in the process. Still paying my MERS mortgage for now too even though it's difficult and I am disgusted with the fraud and the very good possibility that my title is clouded. I don't give up either.
My point was that not everyone just quit paying their mortgages because they didn't feel like paying. These people I know ARE picking up the pieces and starting anew. They have made choices too, and one of them, after all their other options ran out, was to stop paying their mortgage. Some did get foreclosed upon. Some still trying to negotiate with their bank. Regardless, these are highly responsible people who have always met their financial obligations.
You are aware that that is part of the contract: non-payment results in foreclosure. So you tell me: why aren't the banks following through with foreclosure? Instead, we get these sensational squatter stories.
Also little brother. I have seen much. To much. I am much older now. Warn others since we could not warn enough.
"You are trying to excuse (in advance) your weakness."
" I am not a "hater"... ", really?
Sounds like you've made up your mind that the squatters are quitters. I notice you use the past tense to describe your history... I bet you learned some valuable lessons from your past you would not have otherwise learned without the crisis in your life... would you have learned them without the crisis? Honest now...
It's fine to say you are a survivor and pass judgement on others being quitters, when you are probably currently employed... are you overqualified for almost any job, like an aerospace engineer who can't get a job at home depot? Did you find your job after your divorce in good times?
Some of us are just getting into the crisis of our lives, that has taught us, and is teaching us, those lessons... it's nice to sit back with that knowledge and judge others for what you had to learn the hard way, and say they should have known better... did you?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No job for me at Home Depot either. Probably too old and "overqualified".
Not going to read thru all the posts but I certainly hope there's not too many 'republican moral police' type threads about being a deadbeat. In other words, if they hadn't of shipped off all the jobs people wouldn't need unemployment benefits and would still be able to make house payments. Granted they we're in over their heads anyhow. The funniest part to me is how the banks show how stupid with greed they are once again: " Oh will get people hooked on 2 huge monthly payments for the rest of their lives and we'll be filthy rich!!!
The only theory I really buy into are those at the top didn't really care what happend, just make the money and leave a wake of destruction behind. Just as long as my money bags are full fuck everyone else.
I have zero problem with people walking away.
Next up is I want people that are in property tax foreclusure to start burning their houses down, in fact I think im gonna create a webpage 'burnurhousedown.com'. Fuck the sob's that's one group of fucking pos's that just refuse to join the depresssion.
hale luia , what a storry, would be interesting,
what are the odds, this people vote
for obama 2012.
I wouldn't put it past them since everyone knows the repukes will throw everyone under the bus blaming the unemployed and grandma for the destruction of the country, nevermind the trillions spent chasing Habib around the desert trying to stick an exon oil flag up his butt.
Does that mean im an Obama fan? Hell no! God forgid if those attention spot light pieces of shit trump and palin ran. What a goddamn joke.
Somehow we need to get an average joe in office, probably someone less radical than me, that isn't a so-called political expert. Why? Because it's been that people with a lot of experience just have more experience in fucking us over that's why.
Speaking of which:
Flashback "deficits don't matter"
Flashforward: "cut spending! weiner! weiner! weiner!"
My kindergarten analysis: Dems will tax us to the point of non-existance, repukes will continue trickle down(pissed on) policy until you have nothing, you can't win with either group.
Both Party's will piss on you and tell you its raining. Its starts next door and the next... Community is YOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvjw5xJF8WQ&feature=related
Similar mistake in the seventy's. socialist's sucks. The projects fell also as will section 8 until people get it.
seen and not seen
The Hegelian Dialectic synthesis to this generated crisis is for the elite via their USFed to buy all mortgages in the United States.
Why not? Their 99 year charter ends on 12/21/2012, and they may as well go for it all, since the dumb stupid sheep domestically have no idea how they are being financially raped.
There is not a thing we can do about it, so position oneself accordingly to benefit from this well-planned agenda execution.
No real estate ever again (for ownership will come with many new strings attached as to detract people from seeing it favorably), physical gold and silver, cash for now, no equities, no bonds, out of all debt, no TV in the house, out of all retirement plans as it will be confiscated and become a UST IOU.
Right, sell everything, grab your gold and hide
under the rock, wait for aliens :)))
Now,now. He may sound a little tinfoil hat-ish, but...
How many older folks in this country re-financed, or just sold their houses that were already paid off, because it was a great market to reap some profits... then ran off and bought an RV, or a bigger house, or just pissed it away...
But at the same time, the bank took that property that had been paid for once, and gave a loan to someone who should not have got one for that property... and now, neither the original owner has anything to show for it, the borrower defaulted, and the bank now owns it...
Bubbles are designed, yes purposefully, to dislodge wealth from those few that still possess some... and it worked, in the 80s, the family farm was eliminated, today, the last of the property owners who did not sell will simply lose their "owned outright" home to the wave of increasing taxes and cost of living that is about to crest...
tinfoil hat, maybe, true, you betcha.
Actually, you should sell your gold. One of it's largest corrections it will experience began on Friday.
10 tons sold (probably Paulson). There are no buyers left. All the players are all in and waiting for inflation to rear its ugly head yet the fatal snake bite is deflation. Deflation own dollars/inflation own things.
"Ownership", has been a dead idea for years, complicated in recent times by robosigners, deeds cut into tranches, etc.
Possession is 9/10 of the law. Who possesses? Not the hapless squatter, who merely apes the criminal behavior of the Banks. (They stole his money, so he lives in their house for free. Seems like a quid por quo to me.)
The "person" (includes corporate entities, such as US Gov't) with the most and biggest guns possesses, that's who. In the material world, might makes right. They can live in the house without making payments until the SWAT team comes and kicks them out. Don't whine about it, just remeber that this is all a dream.
very upsetting that folks would support this kind of thing. I have struggled, and made great sacrifices to pay down my mortgage early. Deliberately purchased less house than I could afford, on a 15 year note and then made additional interest payments...It mades me sad to see that others are being rewarded by doing the complete opposite. Not sure how they can look themselves in the mirror. I would not befriend them.
I paid off my first mtg, sent GMAC a cashiers check for $75k, I only have 25k left on a 2nd. So when I said I support this im not one of the ones doing it. I don't support the official deadbeats, but the ones that lost their jobs thanks to the politicians NAFTA etc policies.........good for them.
What really pisses me off are the ones that just don't get it, banks spend 24/7 trying to figure out ways to screw us over you realize that don't you?
Asides from a trading acct, I pulled out my 401k, my wife just got hers, I have nothing left except 15 years of a pension plan that I can't touch and get quarterly "critical status" letters, and social security is the devil according to republican---well of course it is since you took all the $ out of it and can't pay it back.
As far as im concerned it's high time the people start sticking it in the banksters ass. And break it off while your at it.
Friends are priceless. And your stepping away was just
i am bothered deeply by this too. when the honest man and the dishonest man are held in near the same regard, the honest one is punished by his non-participation in the sociopathy in the society. those who bailed out, strategically defaulted, or stole the appliances before vacating are hurting honest men, even forcing them to join in the fray, with scholarly articles on relative amorality in vogue. do the 36% underwater mortgagees in my state (Michigan) continue to pay up or join the default contingent? THATS the round two equivalent to the sub-prime crisis coming right up.
When the foundations are being destroyed what are right thinking people to do? Psalm 11:3
We can be an economic engine again by having the government back FICO giving everyone a 700 credit score. If people screw that up within 5 years they lose it. A ton of people just want their score back. They have cash but no leverage. Thats what the banks got...cash and the backing of the government. This country will be like Bangladesh if people remain idle for much longer.
Some of the most important decisions you'll make in life are driving, home ownership and raising a family. Let's see, how much does the public education system teach about each ...
They will learn to listen. The lessons are being taught as we watch. We tried to warn them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEluoeMLTCI&feature=related
With banks not having to face the consequences of massive failure, why should deadbeats?
Excellent Point!!!!!!
Didn't the banks create the middle class and vice versa. Surely its government that needs to get its act together and make us all upper class so that inflation can be consumer driven rather than investment driven.
Respect and the division of labor did. They changed, not us. Payback since the New natives did not listen. We knew then the mindset changed. Free trade was the signal in the early 80's. Hard lessons to the new natives. Malachi Martin told us how but lessons must be learned.
Mojique sees his village from a nearby hill
Mojique thinks of days before Americans came
He serves? the foreigners in growing numbers
He sees the foreigners in fancy houses
He dreams of days that he can still remember now
Mojique buys his equipment in the market place
Mojique plants devices through the free trade zone
He feels the wind is lifting up his people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXUpKmYwnEE&feature=related
drive them away.......
"Divide et impera"
Works every time...
For every hand extended, another lies in wait. Family and friends only. Debt is a future claim on labor. End the madness. If they walk away without wisdom we can not help them. Caeser only gets what he can take. They are not the solution are they since the honest pay on both acounts.
This one I would like to comment on. I think the problem resides in the fact that in the mania (a mania to end all manias) EVERYONE participates in the free for all. I see it here in Canada too where the average home price is well over 340K now and in some places ridiculously over 870K. The low interest rates spur lending by an industry built on incentives. People realizing that their money is getting nothing in guaranteed interest rates chase returns. Flipping properties, investing in risky stocks, and taking all manner of stupid risks. They borrow and continue to take equity out of rising asset prices. All you have to do is look at the stats up here in Canada to realize that this whole scenario is playing out once again. Responsible lending here in Canada? Rational consumers and borrowers? Please! Then it collapses and you get all the finger pointing, accusations and legal ramifications from idiots that of course "never saw it coming" (as if it were really that hard to spot).
In the US unfortunately from your leaders down there is crooked accounting and unlawful occurances daily. People see this and they emmulate the same behavior thinking of course, "if they can do it.....why can't I?" Pretty easy justification when you think about it and in reality who is to say they are wrong? When banks make lousy loans and are bailed by a society, when business practices or accounting measures are corrupt and when leaders are doing nothing about one of the most seriously ridiculous over spending habits the world has ever seen then what is the common fellow supposed to do? I don't believe this behavior is right on any level but it is so entrenched in the society right now that it will I fear only get worse before it gets better until everyone realizes that admitting you are "wrong" might be the best way to go so that all can move forward. I suspect this will happen north of the boarder in much the same way so take note.
I'll be the first... I was wrong... I bought a house I could not afford if I lost my job for more than 4 months. I bought a house I could not afford if I lost my job and my 401k performed poorly...
The well was poisoned a long ago. Now you can go on to new lessons. We all know both party's failed in areas but the Hill must learn there lesson now. We can only pray all turn in the proper direction.
This is crap. They took a gamble using their house as leverage (twice) and they lost. Back your bags losers.
who instead of paying their mortgage (or rent), prefer to purchase trinkets and gizmos.
This is an assumption which in some circumstances may be true, however, in many others it is not the case.
The fact is that the deadbeat banks changed the accounting rules to appear solvent when they are not. They fraudulently packaged and influenced fraudulent ratings on mortgage backed securities. The banks sold these securities to investors while simultaneously betting against them. Now the investors have been burned and refuse to buy more mortgage backed securities and with nowhere to sell the paper, the banks are refusing to loan. The financing has vaporized so the market is frozen and properties can't sell.
These bankers are criminals that have paid off politicians to avoid prosecution. Not paying the home loan payments on the properties in these destroyed markets is simply a form of constructive protest against the mortgage fraud, ratings fraud, accounting fraud, bond fraud, the forclosure fraud, the securities fraud, the TARP bailout fraud and the banker bonus fraud that has been committed by the Bankers without prosecution or recourse.
MAJOR MASSACHUSETTS STATE SUPREME COURT RULING
TODAY AGAINST BANK FORECLOSURE FRAUD. 1/07/2011
Did Your Mortgage Holder (Bank) break your Chain Of Title? Can they even foreclose on you if you don’t pay?
Make Them Show You The Note…..
http://action.seiu.org/page/speakout/wheresthenote?js=true
IF THE BANKS HAVE BROKEN THE CHAIN OF TITLE, THEY CAN NOT LEGALLY FORECLOSE.
Banks Are Tanking After Suffering A Big Loss At The Massachusetts Supreme Court
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/bank-of-america-ibanez-case-2011-1#ixzz1AN0yethD
Here is more Signs of the rampant bank fraud:
SEC sent out a fresh round of subpoenas last week (Dec 6-10) including BAC
State courts, seek potentially massive fines against the bank and compensation for customers.
allegations (Arizona):
BAC violated a 2009 consent judgment
BAC routinely misled consumers about home loan modifications.
BAC violated Arizona state's consumer fraud act.
BAC attempted outreach to incoming Arizona AG Tom Horne "highly inappropriate."
BAC misled consumers with lies and untruths related to declined modifications.
allegations (Nevada)
BAC misled consumers by promising to act upon requests for mortgage modifications.
BAC misled consumers with false assurances that their homes would not be foreclosed while their requests for modifications were pending.
BAC misrepresented to consumers that they must be in default on their mortgages to be eligible.
BAC made false promises to consumers that their modifications would be made permanent if they successfully completed trial modification periods.
BAC misled consumers with inaccurate and deceptive reasons for denying their requests.
BAC falsely notified consumers or credit reporting agencies that consumers are in default when they were not.
BAC misled consumers with offers of modifications on one set of terms, but then providing them with agreements on different sets of terms.
Consumers deferred short-sales and passed on other attempts to mitigate their losses due to the bank's "misleading BAC assurances."
BAC’s "misconduct in misrepresenting its mortgage modification program" was confirmed in interviews with consumers, former employees and other third parties and through review of relevant documents.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/40720088
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/dec/17/state-ags-office-sues-bank-america/
________________________________________
MUNICIPAL BOND FRAUD
BAC defrauded schools, hospitals and dozens of other state and local government organizations and will pay $137 million to settle allegations.
BAC deprived local organizations of millions of dollars by engaging in illegal behavior when investing the proceeds of municipal bond sales. BAC is paying $107.8 million to these organizations in restitution.
BAC will pay $25 million to the Internal Revenue Service for abuses related to the tax-free status of municipal bonds and $4.5 million to state attorneys general for costs related to their investigations.
A number of (criminals) bankers and other professionals from a variety of financial firms have pleaded guilty in the probe.
BAC and other banks paid kickbacks to win the business of municipalities seeking to invest the proceeds of bond sales before the money is ready to be spent.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/07/AR2010120703314.html
________________________________________________
http://aomid.com/bank-of-america-caught-in-municipal-bond-fraud-will-pay-restitution/226687/
http://thenationonlineng.net/web3/business/23147.html
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/credit/investors-extend-talks-with-bank-of-america-over-mortgage-bonds/19765594/
Great thread excellent topic, however a squatter according to CBS is "someone who moves into a foreclosed home after a family is thrown out."
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4043999n&tag=mncol;lst;2
Squatter Law & Legal Definition:
http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/squatter/
By definition a "squatter" is quite different than how it is being used on this thread.
Which begs the question: Does everyone whom has commented on this thread have their head up their ars?
It's really very simple. If the lender/broker/pretender lender employed a fraudulent scheme using your PROPERTY so they could gain illegal/illicit fees, broke laws and Trust terms and the spirit and letter of UCC and state laws, then the Contract is void ab initio - as if it never existed. This is a fundamental legal concept, not a novel one.
So then what happens? The debt doesn't go *Poof* and vanish, no, it becomes unsecured from your PROPERTY, and is now classified the same as credit card debt.
So what should happen is that the wrongdoers should pay damages, actual and exemplary and the true creditor should sit down and re-negotiate a new contract.
In any other contractual transaction, in mediation or court, this would be the case. I just don't see why its any different between a supposed lender and a property owner.
The nasty issue here is that in many cases private SPV's or Trust (NIM note holders, certificate holders) are the real creditors, not the TBTF's, but if the above happened, TBTF's would be liable for losses in the SPV/Trust AND lose all those lucrative fees for conducting foreclosure.
Read Adam Levitin (Credit Slips), Abigail Field (Fortune) and others. This is what their reporting and legal backgrounds (considerable in Levitin's case) are saying. It's a mess, for sure. Maybe some deliquent property owners were not treated or induced with Fraud or other form of misrepresentation and are simply playing out the string, but as the above noted writers say, those people are the exception, not the rule.