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Michael Krieger - This Is The Last Dance

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Presenting the latest terrific analysis by Michael Krieger of KAM LP, who joins Willem Buiter and everyone else left with a gram of prudence, in realizing that this is nothing more than the "last dance."

History is a set of lies agreed upon.
-  Napoleon Bonaparte

Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because most people do not want to admit they do not have the courage to do anything about it.  Most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker, but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all"
-  Michael Rivero

Every man gotta right to decide his own destiny,
And in this judgment there is no partiality.
So arm in arms, with arms, we'll fight this little struggle,
'Cause that's the only way we can overcome our little trouble.
-  Bob Marley, Zimbabwe

A Thousand Words On Conventional Wisdom

Conventional wisdom.  Many market analysts define conventional wisdom in relation to what direction the market is going to head in the future, but I think this is an utter mischaracterization of the concept.  For example, someone that is bullish on the market right now is likely to see conventional wisdom on stocks and the economy as overly bearish after ten years of no returns for U.S. equities.  In contrast, someone that expects a market collapse will say that everyone is a cheerleader and that the “conventional wisdom” after such a huge rally is for stocks to continue to go up.  This is not how I would describe conventional wisdom and all is does is drag the debate into the intellectual gutter.  Rather, to me conventional wisdom is more the “zeitgeist” of the financial and economic community at any given time.  Zeitgeist is defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary as:  the general intellectual, moral, and cultural climate of an era.  In this sense an “era” will generally mean a lengthy period of time, several decades or perhaps even more extended periods.  That said, what is interesting is that every cycle in the global economy seems to bring forward distinct “mini-zeitgeists” that the experts create to justify market movements or give credence to economic dogma. 

When I define conventional wisdom in this manner what I have found is that I almost always disagree with conventional wisdom.  Two very interesting recent periods were fall 2007-July 2008 and then mid-2008-early 2009 period.  In the first period, it was clear to me that decoupling was impossible because the U.S. was too large and it was clearly on the verge of collapse and, more importantly, that China and the U.S. were joined at the hip in a Keynesian economic Frankenstein that would not be easily severed.  Despite what I thought was pretty obvious at the time, conventional wisdom was that the BRICS had decoupled and all would be well.  Rather than seeing the commodity surge as the flight out of the dollar due to the distinct money policies of the U.S. Fed and everyone else, the rally was seen as evidence of decoupling.  This is mainly because conventional wisdom tends to view rising assets as a signal of prosperity.  I believe this was and is generally due to a misunderstanding of economics (we are all taught mostly rubbish in schools) and a shocking ignorance of the global financial system, how it really works and who/what is pulling the levers.    

Once the collapse occurred the mini-zeitgeist cycle changed and everyone was forced to admit the errors of the decoupling thesis.  That said, a new “conventional wisdom” emerged that was just as ridiculous as the one that came before.  For example, the dollar rally was perceived as a flight to safety when this is not exactly true.  The real reason for the dollar rally was that the world expected deflation and with the world’s reserve currency still the U.S. dollar this meant it would be time to settle positions much of which meant dollar settlement.  So while many investors did indeed end up rushing out of “risk assets” and into the dollar, the desire to be in the dollar due to the relative strength of the U.S. economy was not the cause of the rally.  This misunderstanding is also why so many investors remained in the deflationary mindset for far too long.  The only way a deflation defined as dollar strength and commodity weakness could occur on a sustainable basis would have been if things were allowed to fail and the financial system was allowed to collapse.  As soon as quantitative easing became a reality if should have been clear to all that we had just entered a new era.  Even if one wanted to make the deflation case today (and I think the case can be made), the idea that deflation would lead to commodities falling in value versus the dollar is preposterous given the stance of the Federal Reserve.  In my opinion, the deflation would be in relation to gold since it is now rightfully starting to be appreciated as the natural reserve currency of the world.  The whole idea of the inflation/deflation debate is asinine since both sides are right in their own ways.  The missing component is that the deflationists by and large haven’t figured out that the new reserve currency is gold.  This becomes very clear when one watches the recent debate between Jim Grant and David Rosenberg.  Grant argues that long-term treasuries are a horrific investment right now (I agree 100%) while Rosenberg thinks they are attractive.  I respect Mr. Rosenberg and I think he does fantastic work but it wasn’t lost on me that he had no good response when Mr. Grant posed to him the question about what if the entire monetary system itself changes.  This is the key point.  The Central Bankers and their inept political allies will be the last to figure out that the entire paper ponzi they created and nurtured is falling apart all around them.  The Central Bankers because they are loyalists to economic dogma as absurd as the notion that the sun revolves around the earth.  The politicians because for the most part they don’t understand anything and have few skills other than getting elected to office by making promised they can’t keep.  Look back at history and you will notice that it is entrenched academic ideas that die the hardest.  In the Middle Ages they would send people to prison or worse for speaking against the dogma of the day.  The establishment has and will fight back hard to maintain the status quo but the truth and economic law will win out in the end.  Ben Bernanke is a parlor magician with a printing press.  Please just go away! 

For more on this topic please read the following piece by Martin Armstrong titled “The Clash of Two Worlds:  The Battle Between Knowledge and Ignorance.”  http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/The-Clash-of-Two-Worlds-2-7-10.pdf

Does China Need the U.S. to Collapse?

Another piece of conventional wisdom espoused these days is this idea that the Chinese “need the U.S. as much as we need them.”  I think this is utter nonsense and in fact the opposite may in fact be true.  At the least, it is worth considering.  In July 2009 I wrote a piece titled “The Emerging China Risk” just before the Shanghai market topped out in early August.  I noted that M2 and loan growth in China was dangerously high and that they risked creating major bubbles.  Very few people were talking about this at that time.  Now it is accepted that China has a property issue and the Shanghai index is still around 18% off from the August high.  When I talk to people I respect in the business about the tremendous mal-investments occurring in China as a result of the government’s throwing money at the problem in an attempt to retain power, the main pushback I get are “ well x number of people still need to move to the cities” and “cars person in China is x versus the developed world.”  This is all well and good but has anyone noticed oil is $85/b.  As I have said time and time again, resource constraints are a very serious fact of life in the short-term.  What 2007-2008 should prove to everyone is that the developed world and the emerging world cannot both grow strongly at the same time in the near-term.  Resources will not allow China to grow at 10% and the U.S. to grow at 3%.  Sorry folks, we will see oil at $200/b before you know it. 

What is happening right now is everyone is printing enormous amounts of money in this Keynesian nightmare and thus supporting inefficient aggregate demand as I mentioned in last week’s email.  This means the market’s rebellion will continue to be expressed in surging commodity prices and then surging sovereign yields.  The really scary thing for me as an American is that the longer this goes on and the more empty cities and malls the Chinese create the greater their incentive and need to collapse the United States becomes.  This is because as commodity prices continue to soar and the terms of China shifts against China (this has already started) the more they will need the improve their consumers purchasing power so that they can fill all of the vacant infrastructure.  This is when the need to allow the yuan to strengthen will be most apparent and there will be no choice.  Purchasing power for the Chinese will surge and the U.S. and Europe will be priced out.

The Last Dance

Either China’s leadership is very smart or is very stupid (I know what ours is).  I do not have a great feel for this since I have no connections there but I am pretty sure it is one or the other.  Conventional wisdom at the moment tells us two things with regard to China.  1) They need us as much as we need them.  2) They are creating monster bubbles that are dangerous and have no idea what they are doing.  With point #1 I completely disagree.  On point #2 I had tended to agree with that and in fact may have even played a small role in making that notion part of conventional wisdom with my prior writings.  More and more I am doubting #2.  The alternate scenario goes like this.  They refuse to allow the yuan to strengthen because they know that once they do that it will mark the real end of the dollar era.  So instead they are spending like crazy on infrastructure ahead of them allowing the dollar to plunge.  Then the strong yuan will be employed to purchase all the commodities they need to utilize their infrastructure and the OECD gets priced out. To those that talk about yuan devaluation, you need to be specific.  Devaluation versus what?  Versus commodities generally along with other currencies?  I can buy that argument very easily.  Versus the dollar, highly doubtful.  Why?  The latest data says China owns $877.5 billion in U.S. treasuries.  All they have to do is start dumping and the dollar is finished as the Fed will be forced to print so many dollars it will make Mugabe blush.  People need to wake up.

Last year I wrote about how the leaders in America were essentially fiddling as Rome burned.  This fiddling has become an all out dance party and many investors have been dragged onto the floor one more time due to money printing, an inherent desire to be optimistic, a plethora of propaganda and rising asset prices.  However, this is the last dance folks.  Our corporate and political leaders have destroyed us.  Chuck Prince would be proud.

Mike  

 

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Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:32 | 323997 merehuman
merehuman's picture

if its 1 oz coins...cut a small slot into any wall of your house. Stick those kruggerands in and hear them fall inside your wall.

A house i texas recently made news as walls were filled with silver.

Gold wont rot, so you can plant it in the dirt, no harm done.

Take a 4x4 fence post, drill down the length of it with a hole saw. Insert krugs, plug end. Insert post into hole, add concrete. Now your fence is your fortune. Use your imagination. One fellow used a black painted 100oz bar as a door stop.  

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:17 | 324265 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

And there is wisdom.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 17:41 | 324500 murray
murray's picture

How about for 10,000 ounces or so?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 22:15 | 324823 merehuman
merehuman's picture

reckon i would keep a little out for use and as a decoy. But that much , i would build a shed on the conrete slab poured over the metal buried in the ground. It would be worth it. Be sure to tamp down the soil before pouring concrete. Tell no one. Leave a note for your loved ones.

Had i buried mine in our local woods the developers would have found it.

Once its buried or hidden it should be forgotten about. The mind and fear combine to play paranoia tricks for some.

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 03:26 | 325009 No More Bubbles
No More Bubbles's picture

If that is what you're going to do with it, what on earth in the point of even having it?

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 12:22 | 325654 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

That's what gold is for. If you have that much in gold you should spend a couple and build a bunker. LOL.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:59 | 324086 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

the federal reserve still has a lot of free space, maybe the'll cut you a deal by selling it 100 times :)

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:07 | 324110 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

For the gold's benefit, a deep ocean trench.

For your benefit, somewhere you control close to where you live.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:37 | 324176 murray
murray's picture

My problem here is I'd rather have the physical in a jurisdiction where there will still be a legal gold market/freedom/civilization after the collapse

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:17 | 324128 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

Das Safe in Vienna Austria.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:20 | 324272 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Adolf Hitler, who rolled into Freud's home city of Vienna on March 14, 1938, preceded by thousands of troops, was no surprise to Sigmund Freud. Nor would the many forms of tyrannical fundamentalism that have grown up in Hitler's wake and have extended into the 21st century have shocked him very much.

 

"Finis Austriae," Freud wrote in his diary that March.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/magazine/30wwln_lede.html

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:36 | 324301 optimator
optimator's picture

Perception is everything.  When Hitler rolled into Vienna, Churchill described it as, "The Rape of Austria". 

A reporter on the spot remarked, "If that was rape I've never seen a more willing victim".

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:51 | 324923 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

yeah, the anschluss was quite popular in austria.

jorg haider was a secret gay, that cracks me up.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:25 | 324280 Treason Season
Treason Season's picture

Vielen danke

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 12:49 | 323872 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

Excellent piece but his words on China are inconsistent.  He starts with his view that China is suffering from malinvestment then goes on to say how losing their export markets won't be a big deal.  Since we know that the Chinese sell goods in China at a fraction of what they sell for in the developed world, we can surmise exports supplement domestic Chinese consumption by giving them the scale in production that  allows for domestic discounting.  If I'm right, the loss of export markets will hurt both capacity utilization and average selling price for domestically produced goods. 

 

Ultimately, he never reconcilies how malinvestments, which means low to negative ROE, will impact their banking system.  And once it impacts their banking system, do the Chinese write off everyone's savings along with the bad bank loans or do the Chinese citizens allow hyperinflation to solve their bad debt problem.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:15 | 323937 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Remember, they don't get anything but paper for much of their exports.  Since their currency is being debased each time a dollar flows from the US into China, THEY are the ones subsidizing foreign consumption.

The malinvestment stems from the export lead economy.  This is why a collapse in exports won't hurt them.  The current system is depressing their standard of living.

Also, Chinese are net savers, not net debtors.  Hyperinflation won't help ANYONE in China.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:22 | 323967 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

China is the biggest printer in the world - they're creating paper at a far faster pace than we are.  They are also a mercantilist with no comparative advantage other than cheap labor.  Cheap labor means marginal payment for efforts which means they can't build up a true surplus of savings.  China needs the export market to generate the currency to pay for all of their imports.  Keep in mind that China can neither feed itself nor supply it's own means of production. 

At the end of the day, when everyone in the world is a mercantilist, someone has to consume.  The dollar is strong because without the US consumer, there is no global GDP expansion.  Everyone is competing to obtain our worthless paper which tells us all we need to know about the true instrinsic value of the rest of the world.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:14 | 324258 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You are quite mistaken about China.  They print Yuan for every dollar that comes into the country in accordance with their currency peg.  Therefore, they print exactly as much as we spend on their goods.

Chinese have a lot more to offer than cheap labor.  They are an industrializing economy, so the labor of their workers is become more and more productive.  The same thing happened in every economy that ever industrialized.

If you really think that real goods have no value, then you're dumb.  It's as simple as that.  Many nations abroad are ruled by dumb people, but they always have the option of dumping their dollars.  Our dumb guys are going to find that they can't do anything about it when that happens.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:34 | 324295 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

Rude behavior doesn't strengthen your argument.  China does more than "print" money in exchange for dollars.  You may not know this but China's central planners forced their banks to lend $2 trillion in 2009 as part of their plan to avoid the worst effects of the downturn.  In addition, the Chinese government ran a stimulus plan worth $585 billion.  Keep in mind that China has a roughly $4 trillion economy.  I may be dumb but that equates to something north of 50% of GDP of stimulus spending.  That $2 trillion in new lending effectively created $2 trillion in new yuan.  Do you see where I'm going with this?

Do you know anything of the law of diminishing marginal returns?  If you throw enough money at an industry, you destroy returns for everyone.  Just because you've got a brand new cement plant doesn't mean there will be adequate demand for the plant's output and whatever demand that new plant garners will come at the expense of other similar plants.  $2 trillion is a lot of new plants if you want to end your exports to the US.

Have you ever wondered what happens to a banking system that makes loans that can't be paid back due to insufficient return on the assets they lent against?  I may be dumb, but I think I know the answer to the question!  Do you?

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 00:33 | 324947 kleeee
kleeee's picture

I agree with Ben, the way the Chinese printing money is far worst than helicopter Ben, at the current printing speed, the Chinese can buy the whole world in 10 years with all its RMB

Thats why The Chinese bank will need to raise money from the capital market because the bad debt situation is bad.

The first one is China construction bank which should be announced within weeks if not days.

Alot of new built property in China are empty and they are building it just to meet the GDP target set from the central government.

Also, the local government income is rely on the sales of lands to state own or private property companies. 

If you have connection in China, just simply ask one question, how much does government spending weight in China total CAPEX.

The Chinese government is rich (for now) but majority of its citizens arent. 

I would just ask a simple question how would you save when you get pay for like 100USD per month by making toys for US.

Rent and food have already taken majority of their income and alot of these people do not even have the money for health care.

The whole system is very corrupted as only minority of people (mainly the upper ranked people who work for the government/party) have full access to the money printing resource.  Majority of the people are just working hard for nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 03:23 | 325007 No More Bubbles
No More Bubbles's picture

The whole system is very corrupted as only minority of people (mainly the upper ranked people who work for the government/party) have full access to the money printing resource.  Majority of the people are just working hard for nothing.

 

Are you talking about China or the US?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:42 | 324314 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

+1 Redux

The Aussies have a name for the cluster of problems that Asian nations have.  They call it the 8,000 mile tax.  That's roughly the distance from all of your supplies and all of your markets.  Then there is the small issue of Soviet style central planning.  China is an accident looking for a place to happen.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:51 | 324328 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

Thanks Kaiser!  The funny thing is that everyone seems to overlook the obvious - the whole world competes to accept our shitty dollars.  The Japanese are willing to devalue the snot out of the yen so they can accrue more dollars.  The Chinese wouldn't be able to buy anything from the Aussies without dollars.  A mercantilist who accepts gold in return for his efforts is in a strong position.  A mercantilist who receives dollars in return for his efforts is in a weak position.  Is Michael Porter no longer required reading in grad school?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:24 | 323973 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

Forgot to mention that 58% of Chinese gdp comes from domestic investment which is a much bigger driver of malinvestment than the export market.  Don't believe me - do a google search on Ordos and you'll see what Chinese malinvestment looks like.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 22:19 | 324826 merehuman
merehuman's picture

And chinese government is encouraging gold and silver  purchases by the public. That may save them,

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 00:41 | 324949 kleeee
kleeee's picture

The Chinese government can always confiscated anything from the public.  It has a history of doing that.

Currently, the local government purchase (confiscate) land from farmers for low price so the government could max its own benefit by selling it like 5-10x more.  The farmers tried to protest but were either ignored by the public or got beat up by the gangsters which are the watch dog of the local government/property company

 

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 03:22 | 325006 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

And they have no rule of law, contract standards, respect for the individual, freedom of expression or accounting standards.  Other than that, China should do as well as other fascist police states have performed in the past.  Don't expect any scientific or technilogical breakthoughts in a collectivist culture either.  If they can't hack/steal/copy it from the West they won't have it.  They stole their nuclear weapon technology from the Russians who stole it from us.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 12:49 | 323873 Recovery3000
Recovery3000's picture

The disconnect between Washington and everyone else is incredible.  From Rasmussen earlier this month:

Eighty-seven percent (87%) of those in the Political Class say their views are closer to the president. The Obama Administration has created a significantly larger government and political role in the economy.

Sixty-three percent (63%) of Mainstream Americans say their views are closer to the Tea Party.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 12:51 | 323875 Sancho Panza
Sancho Panza's picture

One question:  The author says China has $880B in U.S. treasuries so they can bring about a dollar collapse whenever they want.

I have a question about that math.  Didn't the Fed just get done with a $1.4 Trillion quantitative easing program, and the dollar is doing just fine at the moment because a $70T debt level has only just begun to deflate?

Perhaps Bernanke sees China's $880B treasury threat and chuckles to himself,  "small potatos".

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:01 | 323902 primefool
primefool's picture

Exactly. In fact I think part of the reason for bulking up the Fed balance sheet and the excess reserves in the US banking system - is to remind these other large sovereign pools of capital that we can easily be the biggest gorrila anytime we want - hey its our currency! So these perceived threats of China dumping their mere $800 Bn in treasuries is kind of silly. Our banks can buy it all up without breaking a sweat.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:20 | 323958 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Our banks can't buy up jack because they don't have any assets that are worth anything.

Saying that the US can destroy its currency faster than China can doesn't make the threat of them selling treasuries any lesser.  It just makes them more likely to do it sooner so they can get SOMETHING in exchange for all the goods they gave us on credit.

If China dumps, then the other countries will all dump, and half of our treasuries will come back to us overnight (the other half being held in America).  If you think that isn't a big deal, then you must have a lot of gold, silver, food, guns, and ammunition stored.  Such an event would be the end of America.  Period.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 21:05 | 324757 Double down
Double down's picture

Respectfully I do not think it will go down that way.

Who is the buyer?

The buyer will be the only one who at that point stands to gain from buying Treasuries. 

Though yields will go sky high the Fed buys the treasuries, burps and considers that a pretty good trade.  The cupons stay in the US and the State now has the majority of its debt in house.

It would not surprise me if the dollar went up in anticipation of the Chinese sale.

I understand that issuing fresh bonds might be an issue, but I actually see that as a salvation for the US.  It is the "Uncle moment".  Alternatively, there might even be demand for UST given the country's "strengthened" position.

Hey, I know this is crazy, but so is the situation.

Regardless: Gold 

 

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 13:30 | 325765 Papa Legba
Papa Legba's picture

Oh, I wouldn't say that even toxic mortgages are worth nothing. At the heart of the mess is real property that people want, and Americans are (or at least can be) hard working and innovative when their butts are on the line. Our currency is as strong as our resolve.

At least, it would be if we took back control over its issue.

 

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 13:33 | 325767 Papa Legba
Papa Legba's picture

 

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:51 | 324057 kaiten
kaiten's picture

Yes, but there´s difference between putting $1.4 Trillion into domestic(US) economy and dumping $880B on world markets. 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:54 | 324210 Haywood Yablomi
Haywood Yablomi's picture

Yes, but there´s difference between putting $1.4 Trillion into Insolvent Banks than dumping $880B on world markets.

 

Fixed it for you.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 19:22 | 324654 Sancho Panza
Sancho Panza's picture

Please explain.  What is the difference? 

Uncle Ben can just buy them up with $880B in newly printed dollar bills.  And then what could China do with the dollar bills?  Buy commodities?  Buy other currencies?  There might be a market disturbance or two, but the threat of $880B bringing on a collapse of the dollar is a bit beyond my imagination.  It's just "conventional wisdom".

When Lehman hit, the dollar gained strength because most of the world's >$100T debt has to be paid back in dollars.  That has not changed.

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 00:47 | 324953 kleeee
kleeee's picture

If it goes into the insolvant bank, big chance those money wont be able to go into the public as they are stuck as being part of the Fed asset or got write off after a while. (The best example I could think of is to throw paper into a black whole)

 

 

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 13:36 | 325779 Papa Legba
Papa Legba's picture

Isn't it also true, however, that America doesn't own the dollar any more than China does? It all has to be paid back to the Fed with interest, and the Fed is a private corporation. How does it benefit us that the world has to pay back $100 Trillion in debt in dollars to the Fed?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 12:59 | 323878 neophyte
neophyte's picture

"Economic history is a never ending series of episodes based on falsehoods and lies, not truths. It represents the path to big money. The object is to recognize the trend whose premise is false, ride it, and step off before it is discredited". George Soros

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:37 | 324178 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

Evil genius!

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 12:57 | 323889 primefool
primefool's picture

I have become interested in why "imminent end of the world" thinking is so common through the ages and why it is so seductive.

It may be that men beyond a certain age ( 50?) start sensing the finiteness of their remaining years on earth. It is then comforting to imagine the world will end as well!

Also after about 50yrs of age for most men there is realization of a decay in physical power, a sense of limits, a loss of dreams. Its easy to translate into imagining the world is decaying, the youth are not like we were at that age etc etc!

I have seen quotes from 300BC decrying the loss of moral standards, the decay of society and the imminent collapse of the world - by 50+ year old philosophers!

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:19 | 323956 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

Don't underestimate those whom rage against a corrupt world and want it to fall.  I am a young doomer.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:33 | 324000 Crab Cake
Crab Cake's picture

Most don't understand us AS because we are the children of their lies and hypocrisy, born with a hole in our souls knowing this isn't the way it's supposed to be.  I've known since I was a young teenager that we live in a world of debased shit and lies.  I'm exactly to the year your age btw. 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:46 | 324041 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

Crabby ma man!

Crab, I have always been a skeptical thinker, have always refused to be assimilated by the borg.

After 9/11 I went into a patriotic fervor. Granted a friend of mine died (electrician who was there for one day),  my brother worked next door and i was convinced he was dead until late that night).  Later upon reflection of all the factors and beneficiaries I saw how badly I got played.

Now the great multiplyer of my anger has been working in the ponzi complex.  I have seen this shit up close.  I see the denial, ignorance and groupthink of the morons who are being played by TPTB. They do not care about anyone else, they care what moel BMW they drive.  They are true SOCIAPATHS.

I will escape the system.

and this quote my friend, is art- "we are the children of their lies and hypocrisy, born with a hole in our souls knowing this isn't the way it's supposed to be"

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:26 | 324281 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Two years your junior.

We are the outliers - three standard deviations away from the norm. I've seen the demographics on InfoWars.com and here and it's 70/30 male to female with the median age over 55.

If only VeloBabe, MsCreant, and Cougar weren't taken - we could eat, drink, and be merry on a cruiseship. Chumba can come too - shirtless guy with a dark tan sitting at the bar the whole time, talkin' about gold or something.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:02 | 324529 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

Fuck it, enough outliers get together we can still cause a ruckus. 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:18 | 324559 velobabe
velobabe's picture

yeah, am a widow. just saying†

but i am over men. cyber flirting, it's the newest thing and you don't need any protection.

p.s. it is really hard for me to communicate with some of these ugly people moniker pictures. do you think they know it is kinda of a turn off to look @ ben b, or tim g. guess that shows how shallow i am.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:26 | 324576 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

sorry to hear you are a widow.  what is the subscript t indicate?

there are too many of the same icons.  pretty sure there are better sites for flirting though.  cougarlife?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:35 | 324588 velobabe
velobabe's picture

it is not a T or a cross it is a dagger, my weapon of choice around here†

‡ that's my double dagger, when i really have my panties in a bunch.

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 12:52 | 325693 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Woah. Cool. My kind of lady. Would love to try your wine sometime - looks pretty tasty; made with care.

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 13:58 | 325827 velobabe
velobabe's picture

well i would love to send you a bottle of our '06 cabernet sauvignon. it is made with care, wings, what a beautiful saying. melt in your mouth good. it wouldn't go bad shipping FedEx,  this time of year, cause not too hot yet. i don't live near the winery, cause it is really remote and nothing to do there except work.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:25 | 323981 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Was it just before their civilization collapsed?

The world is in a unique and never-before-tried state of existence.  Unless some amazing new factor comes out of the blue showing that a worldwide fiat currency system can be saved perpetually, it will collapse, and take most of the world with it.

That's not to say everyone will die, but many certainly will.  There will be a scramble for gold as we return to the old, well proven system of gold as reserve currency, and some period of readjustment.  Depending on how much the government interferes it could last a few months, a year or a decade, but probably not much more than that, as even the strongest government won't last that long while trying to hold everything up.  A new order will emerge, and the golden rule will come back into force.

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 13:41 | 325789 Papa Legba
Papa Legba's picture

Unless some amazing new factor comes out of the blue showing that a worldwide fiat currency system can be saved perpetually, it will collapse, and take most of the world with it.

 

Let's call him The Water Bearer. Jesus said that when we encounter him, follow him, then.

It's a time of great change.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:50 | 324052 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

It ain't got nuthin to do with anything you say, it's cause they ain't gettin their wick wet anymore. Something about gettin a piece of tail on a consistent basis will keep any man's spirits bouyant at any age.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:07 | 324109 aerojet
aerojet's picture

I have been promoting the same ideas to anyone who will listen.  The Boomers have no solutions because they don't want to have any.  Look at the fools who come on here and tell you to buy gold, guns, and become self-sufficient.  They're the same necrophiliacs who have made shows like CSI and NCIS popular!  They exist only to piss and moan about how bad the world is while not lifting a finger to do anything about it.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:34 | 324168 Chump
Chump's picture

What can be done, friend?  TARP admittedly went against a loud and vocal majority.  Obamacare went against a loud and vocal majority.

TPTB have made it more than clear that they couldn't give less of a shit what anyone thinks.

And if you think becoming self-sufficient and investing in PMs, lead, and lead delivery systems is silly advice, then what exactly are your plans?  I'm truly curious.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:26 | 324144 Chump
Chump's picture

I disagree with your premise.

1.)  I think younger people are less likely to pay any attention at all.  Witness how during every election there is always a campaign to get the younger generation out voting.  We need prodding to even give a tiny shit about anything these days, other than the latest plastic piece of Chinese trash that plays wicked cool tunes and vids.

2.)  I don't think the "end of the world" is a seductive idea.  I'm 28, baby on the way, no real wealth to worry about preserving, but I'm still convinced that we are headed for a total collapse whether we like it or not.  It's terrifying.  I have my whole life ahead of me and one coming that I'm responsible for, and what kind of future is in store?  Squirrel pie, smoked venison, fighing off zombies?  Seductive?  I think not.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:29 | 324580 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

great icon chump.

question, do you feel any moral issues with a kid and a collapse on the way?  I am 32 and recently married....

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 09:33 | 325252 Chump
Chump's picture

I do.  At times I wonder if I'm an irresponsible idiot for bringing a life into this hellhole, but that ends up seeming like a cop-out.  My life (and my wife's) and the way I live it is not determined by TPTB, the economy, or really anything outside my own value system.  I also view this as a chance to pass along my value system and hopefully raise a rational, self-assured, productive person.  God knows we're going to need some folks around who aren't leechfuck zombies.  Of course, this adds a whole new, nearly overwhelming aspect to my survival plans.

I've also noticed a change in my own mentality lately.  As we get closer to the due date I'm less and less inclined to just say, "fuck it and fuck everyone," and withdraw from the coming shitstorm.  I feel like I have to do everything within my power to make sure my child doesn't inherit Zombieland.

ETA: Rand summed it up best in her foreward to The Fountainhead when she said, IIRC, "one cannot give up the world to those one despises."

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 13:44 | 325795 Papa Legba
Papa Legba's picture

Actually, I think it was Spaulding Gray's character in David Byrne's True Stories, who said "Of course, not everybody's having kids these days, what with the end of the world coming up and all."

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 19:41 | 324674 zgulgar
zgulgar's picture

lets see im 44 /4 kids and barely get by  lol!

By training im a culinary engineer /auditor/infantryman/mechanic/outdoorsman/fisherman/construction worker etc the list goes on and on ! The one thing that gives me sanity is that either i know it already or i have the capability to learn it .The one thing that cant be taken away from you is knowledge so learn and never stop .Learn how things work ! I cant stress skills /skills /skills/.

Hedge against everything you can be it financial /food/water security  personnel self defense .Have a plan for everything you can think of. Learn basic First Aid etc because sometimes when you need a helping hand all you have to do is look at the end of your arm )

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 09:26 | 325254 Chump
Chump's picture

+1.  And I'm envious of your skills and knowledge because that is arguably your greatest survival asset.  Awesome.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:01 | 324226 Haywood Yablomi
Haywood Yablomi's picture

I'm in my late twenties, and I don't relish the idea of working for the next 10 years to support the entitlements, retirements, bonuses, and illusory wealth of a fraudulent ponzi system.

 

The vaporization of our financial system is inevitable.  I'd much rather see it collapse now so we can rebuild on a stable foundation.  Otherwise there's really no point to working at all, is there?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:54 | 324334 beast_of_burden
beast_of_burden's picture

I'm in the same boat but consider this:  if the system goes down our asses are getting drafted for whatever war will follow.  Too many boomers, not enough young and able bodied people to fight so flat feet won't be enough to get out of it.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:14 | 324558 Haywood Yablomi
Haywood Yablomi's picture

Without a stable currency there is nothing left to fight for.  The constitution?  Not like we follow it anymore.  Do you really think they could convince people to accept a draft with these assclowns running the show?   They can try.  But it wouldn't get them anywhere.  Hello New Zealand!

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:50 | 324922 nuinut
nuinut's picture

Yeah, New Zealand here.

 

Gold. If you have been paying attention, you will have noticed that the majority commenting at ZH believe it to be the best bet. Certainly not everyone, but a lot more than half I'd say.

And the rest don't have any alternatives, for all their gold bashing (unless you think hoarding paper is a viable alternative, that is. IMO that is the exact strategy that got us so far up Shit Creek. But not everyone can see past their conditioning, so I do understand).

 

Personally, I think gold will do better than alright. Physical gold, that is.

 

Not yet 40 myself, and it has been obvious to me since I was a teenager, that the western world at least was on a most unsustainable course. But we have not been brought up to understand the world from a point of view that would enable us to see how we have all been duped, for obvious reasons. That doesn't mean we couldn't smell the rat. We just couldn't see it.

 

Try this out, quote taken from here- Aristotle (4/19/2000)

Simply put, the world works like this: We all have needs to sustain our life, and we therefore all must endeavor from cradle to grave in the satisfaction of life's requirements. Wealth, you see, is anything that can be utilized in meeting our needs to sustain our lives.

 

Wisdom and experience show that some wealth assets are more reliable and universal. Some are so reliable, and so universal we actually give very little thought to counting them amoung our assets. Take oxygen. Most of us as we walk down the street give this nary a thought. We are oxygen rich! If you don't believe me, just think of what you'd say upon hearing of a scuba diver who ran out of air while exploring some underwater cave. "Poor bastard." At least, that's what I'd surely say.

So, unless we anticipate scuba diving, very few of us take any effort to mindfully or aggressively gather for later use the real wealth of oxygen. And to any primative, or to a resurrected ancient who had no concept of scuba diving, we would surely look like the perfect fool bottling air in preparation for the event.

To keep this short, let me come to the point. We have basic material needs of food, clothing, and shelter. Access to energy could be also be included in the list. To have more than you need for satisfying the immediate demands for survival is to be wealthy. To come up short in the ability to satisfy any one vital need quickly reveals you to be another "poor bastard" in the eyes of the impartial gravediggers.

Fotunately, from the earliest times of our ancestors we have discovered that we don't all need to be meticulous wealth planners like the modern scuba diver, Mt. Everest climbers, or astronauts taking a ride to the moon. We can generally blunder our way through day to day and year to year in the comfortable fact of life that, through the open market--through the ability to trade with others--we can generally obtain what we materially need in one facet in exchange for some of our own wealth in another facet. Food for clothing seems like a pretty reasonable medieval exchange, doesn't it?

We all know the inefficiencies of barter, don't we? As civilization and trade evolved from the dawn of man to the 20th century, Gold revealed itself to be the single most reliable, universal agent that could be traded in various quantities for anything anywhere on Earth. Maybe most remarkable in this is that Gold is not itself something that is needed or consumed in satisfaction of our basic material needs for survival. But due to it being perfectly and uniquely suited for this universal role in trade for any other person's available wealth as necessary to meet our own specific needs, Gold has become such a near proxy for the real wealth we require for life that many of us have permitted ourselves the casual inclusion of Gold into our otherwise strict definition of wealth.

Those in the financial industry have come to call this universal wealth asset (Gold) by the name "money," but that unnecessarily confuses the issue. In their efforts to facilitate various objectives in modern life, those in the financial industry endeavored to master the alchemist's craft--to methodically create "money" from such substances as worthless base metals or from paper. Even the village idiot can clearly see that "the bankers and others" didn't succeed in creating Gold. But the village idiots were never so sure that these nickel coins and paper notes weren't in fact successfully turned into this other thing that the experts called "money." As for me, I'm comfortable calling these lesser creations by the name "currency," and further, I recognize that they can and do serve a useful purpose in modern society. With this distinction I am not so easily baffled as the village idiots into thinking that these currencies created in the image of "real money" can actually attain the superior wealth function of the asset they sought to imitate--that being Gold. And you shouldn't be fooled either.

Every currency made in imitation of Gold goes hand in hand with the financial architecture that supports it right into the trashbin of failed efforts, and are logged into the collective wisdom of those who vow not to be fooled again. Based on the "conception, care, and feeding" of the various currencies and their supporting architectures, the lifespan--or timeline--of predictable rise and fall milestones may vary in length from one currency to another. They may serve a purpose while they last, but they all suffer the same eventual demise at the hands of inflation. Remember, these currencies are man's artificial attempt, time and time again, to imitate Gold for use in modern commerce. They are built for speed--built to be borrowed specifically, and spent rapidly! They are not suitable for saving. For that you must turn to the master--the near-wealth proxy upon which all currencies must bow down in inferior imitation.

So you see, learning how the world works is all about each man coming to the understanding about the real wealth we all require to best ensure our survival. Knowing that Gold is the master proxy for our life's day-to-day and year-to-year shifting requirements for food, clothing, shelter, and energy, it simply makes more sense to gather in Gold for later use than to gather in clothes (that we may outgrow,) food (that may spoil,) houses which are more than our needs, or energy (that we can't store.) You see, time bears witness to this undeniable fact: Gold can be called wealth because it is an enduring wealth proxy in exchange for our life's needs. Currency, on the other hand, serves a specific modern economic purpose--to be borrowed and inflated in placation of man's immediate desires. It is not wealth, it fails as a proxy for the Gold it tries to immitate. Do not confuse the two.

Understanding how the world works is easy as soon as you understand the Wealth Hierarchy. Like this: Earn money/currency, buy what you need, save Gold, enjoy what life has to offer.

Real wealth. Get you some. ---Aristotle

If that strikes a chord, there is plenty more linked there to get one thinking, and I highly recommend FOFOA. There are many must read posts there, IMHO.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:31 | 324582 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

maybe beast, but if i were i would go check out the DARPA page, gonna just need people to help remote control the robots that kill people on the otherside of the world.  there is also a congressional mandate that x% of fighting forces must be robotic by x year.  i'll try to find it later.

skynet BITCHEZ

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:06 | 324541 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

hmm, seems to be a lot of us late 20's/ early 30's here.  i'm glad to see that.  hopefully our compatriots will wake up at some point.  my friends think i'm a lunatic, but when some bad shit goes down, they will be swayed.

btw if i hear "what are you talking about, look how high the dow is" again that person is getting shanked, family member or not.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:26 | 324575 velobabe
velobabe's picture

serfy. i played golf yesterday with a young man graduating law school next week. 23 years old. said, out of his entire graduating class 60% didn't have any job opportunity available to them. i almost cried for him. he was going to do the early am maintenance shift this summer at the golf course. his area of law is accounting or something. he was pretty despondent with his whole dream.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:33 | 324584 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

velo, you know I am an attorney right? IT IS AWFUL.  this is why my name is serf, i am a debt slave.  work 90 hrs a week for chump change.  people can't even find volunteer jobs.  gonna be a lot of school loan defaults.  at least lawyers are litigious, i expect lots of suits about false advertising by schools and about non-dischargeable debt.

the seething anger is unreal.  radicalized debtors are good for change at least.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:39 | 324594 velobabe
velobabe's picture

i read you were an attorney. i got mine right now.

i call it going into deposition row. (like b. dylan's desolation row)

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 20:06 | 324689 zgulgar
zgulgar's picture

I became very  concerned when the first TARP bailout happened so i started learning financials then 2 days before the market collapsed i sold my 401 k etc everbody thought i was stupid  lol. I research now all financials  into the dirt b4 i will speculate with any assets. I think we are in a controlled collapse from TPTB /there is time left  b4 it crashes completely .For my simple pleasures left to me in this life i am learning quite quickly how to do things like they were done in the 1800s .How do you trade your labor for someone else'?

Everyone needs to understand the just in time delivery system ! There is approx 4 days food in all resteraunts grocery stores then b4 the company runs out an automated order system re-orders and gets it to wherever "just in time". Cities will crash and burn if there is more than 7 days of interupted supply . Period. think about it .

A CIA report said that most of the population in the USA and world is THREE meals from rioting and will do whatever needed to get food .

I am constanly amazed that i can turn in FRN's <dollars> for something that is highly usefull like gold silver food etc.The FRN system is unsustainable .. period .

If you do not wish to be manipulated by either artificial or real emergencies you must take responsibilty for yourself . Do not count on govt agencies to come save you .

 

And all the peeps that used to scoff at me are sorta looking around now and asking me serious questions .

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:05 | 324865 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You are not the only one glad to see younger people getting interested and becoming vocal!  I am a ripe young 62 and have seen a lot of crap go down.  Spent 4 years in the Air Force when we were "not bombing Cambodia", but were bombing Cambodia.  I came alive that year sitting on a flight line in Thailand fixing F-4s and F-105s for Uncle.   The news didn't correlate with the 200 sorties a day going out with bombs and coming back light.  Since that time I've never had a salaried job.  Worked for myself ever since.  You young folks won't have to worry about taking care of me in my old age.  I've provided.  I'll take Social Security to the amount that I paid in (presuming it lasts that long) and I'll opt out.  Just give me back the money I involuntarily paid -- you can keep the interest 'cause I'm too lazy to calculate/compound it.  I have plenty of PMs I've put away to tide me over.   You guys/gals take care of yourselves the best you can.   The oldies that you carp about having to bear thru a sick old death is a valid argument.   Most of 'em will be getting a lot more than they paid in.   I'm NOT on their side.  Your friends who are not here reading your posts, and my old pals who are out on the golf course, don't count in this discussion.  Contrary to popular belief, is IS about you.

BTW velobabe -- love the new avatar!

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:10 | 324874 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Been working 30 years and my total contribution to SS, + employer match, is $200K

Don't think I'll ever see that back. 50 year olds are in an interesting position now, being that we are taking care of both our kids and parents now. No kidding....

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:29 | 324891 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Scylla and Charybdis, my friend.   My best to you.

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 00:05 | 324932 Hulk
Hulk's picture

LOL, love greek mytholgy RR, it was my favorite subject in junior high...

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 17:37 | 324492 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

That might be one explanation. It seems that regardless of age, some people are unable to decouple their own situation and the situation at large. They are struggling, their life is on a track to nowhere so they have to imagine the whole world is going to sink with them.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:25 | 324887 Farcical Aquati...
Farcical Aquatic Ceremony's picture

And, regardless of age, some people are unable to decouple their own situation and the situation at large.  They are succeeding, their life is on a track to material riches, so they have to imagine the whole world is going to rise with them.

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 02:45 | 324994 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Maybe but probably for different causes. Yet unlikely.

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 12:58 | 323891 B9K9
B9K9's picture

The Central Bankers and their inept political allies will be the last to figure out that the entire paper ponzi they created and nurtured is falling apart all around them.

 

Until this type of thinking is dispensed, we are condemned to continually experience ongoing events from a hoocoodanode perspective.

I urge Tyler/Dan and ZH space monkeys to adopt & embrace the 'surfers paradox' view of the world. IOW, in contrast to wide-spread media portrayal, surfers are actually quite diligent in their understanding & observations of weather patterns. Any surfer who has even the slightest clue knows waves hit within a period of days after a major storm event at sea.

Likewise, anyone with even the slightest understanding of economics, finance & math knows what is going to occur. There doesn't need to be a global conspiracy corridinating these events. One only needs to view the world from the vantage point of a Goldman trader in 2007.

Lack of productivity/innovation decreases economic returns. Credit leverage is the answer to generating (short-term) above average returns. However, the nature of compounding principle+interest dictates that a terminal point is eventually reached.

We reached the private sector terminal point in 2007-2008. After saturation was reached, the debt burden was shifted to the public sector. Various Keynesian & monetary theories were (and are still being) used to justify central government & banking actions. But these are only salves to dupe the clueless ie non-surfers.

Cause & effect - it's all right there out in the open.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:09 | 323923 primefool
primefool's picture

Malthusian ( Limits To Growth) type thinking is quite suspect even in the realm of physical resources. According to LTG we should'nt even be alive at this point having perished sometime in the 1980s from lack of food, overcrowding and pollution!

The world of Finance is to physical resources as Quantum mechanics is to newtonian physics. (Ok - maybe a bad metaphor!). But nevertheless concepts of scarcity are meaningless in a fiat money system. Aggregate debts never get "repaid" - they always have to grow ( if the private sector wont grow - then the public sector will). So the idea that exponential growth in debts will somehow run into limits , I think is false.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:38 | 324017 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Debt goes to infinity, then to 0.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 17:39 | 324494 Greyzone
Greyzone's picture

Excuse me, but your comment proves that you never even read LTG.

First of all, LTG was not a single doomsday scenario. Instead, it described multiple possible scenarios. At the 30 year mark of the LTG report, an update was published. The scenario that most closely matches our current situation results in a complete collapse of technological society sometime before about 2070 with serious declines beginning early in the 21st century due to resource constraints. And indeed those constraints have started to materialize.

As such, the LTG remains an eerily prescient look at the results of human exponential growth activity in a finite world.

I highly recommend that you consider reading the 30 year update to LTG as well as the original LTG. It might help you avoid making obviously uninformed comments.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:52 | 324061 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Party on Wayne, Party on Garth!

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:41 | 324184 velobabe
velobabe's picture

surfers - water

skiers - snow

theory of everything is liquid and fluid.

state of glass is even fluid.

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 16:03 | 324344 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 - well, everything but Greece.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:01 | 323901 economicmorphine
economicmorphine's picture

"ither China’s leadership is very smart or is very stupid "

I'm guessing that China's ruling class is more likely to be similar to everyone else's ruling class than different, that is to say, stupid.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:09 | 323924 DosZap
DosZap's picture

econo,

Personally, I think the Chinese are likely the most intelligent planners on this planet, and have been for a VERY long time.

Last country standing, will be the Chinese...........

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:32 | 323999 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Couldn't disagree more.  These are the same people who killed off millions of people during a 'Great Leap Forward'.  Don't think we ever that here in the States. 

Also, exactly how are they going to feed a billion hungry people without imports?  I don't imagine there will many pissed off Americans armed to the teeth interesting in helping them out much. 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:08 | 324248 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Maybe a 3rd way: sure, millions die in China, but they have been ramping up infrastructure while ours is crumbling.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the West coast cities fully populated by the Chinese in 2025 - Israeli style.

"We are have a right to exist! All your base are belong to us."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 20:15 | 324704 zgulgar
zgulgar's picture

Japanese admiral yamamoto ,when asked about invading the USA , said that behind every blade of grass there would be a sniper .

80 million <at least > gun owners in USA 

More ammo sold this last year then ALL current armies for same time period.

To private US citizens .

If you think a deer hunter in this country is scared of conflict you are definately drinking the kool-aid !No disrespect intended .

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 02:47 | 324996 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Please notice that the Japanese also stated a similar thing about their country.

See how it was solved.

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 13:12 | 325735 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

We have a food logistics problem we didn't have 60 years ago. No disrespect to the coastal deer hunters, but their families better be able to run faster than the tanks. Get thee to the Rockies.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:11 | 323927 Recovery3000
Recovery3000's picture

Especially making all those everyday decisions for over a billion people, what could go wrong?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:30 | 323991 tmosley
tmosley's picture

More like 700 million.  A large portion of their population lives within economic free zones that surround their cities.  The EFZ concept is what is driving their economy, and why the Chinese are on track to become the world's next superpower.

We could beat them there, if we returned to free market ideology.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:08 | 324113 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Because they have experience managing 700 billion people (or 1.5 billion or whatever) they have the advantage.  Their cats don't wander far, their people are used to tight rules.  Our cats on the other hand...  Well, we'd better get some better TV shows.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:06 | 323906 43 Steelie
43 Steelie's picture

This might be the best article I've read on this site...and that is saying A LOT

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:04 | 323909 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

"This fiddling has become an all out dance party...."

no - it is a rave with crystal meth flowing in torrents....

down with bail outs.... break up the tbtf ..... slash the budgets .... bankrupt the bankrupt ... jail the banksters and regulators .... let the healing begin

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:06 | 323913 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Wonder what the specifics are on the 13 Million acres just confiscated by Obammy is...........

National Landmarks my ass.

You,here, will believe it, but most are clueless.

The Cap & Trade Board of Trust, once passed will bring in ten trillion dollars in revenue...........never guess who the board is made up of, and from, and, No..........for once it's not GS/JPM.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 20:23 | 324717 zgulgar
zgulgar's picture

A surprisingly large portion of US national parks have been ceeded to the United Nations .The best i can figure out is central banks and the UN are in cahoots as to particular territory . Sounds insane but the info is on the UN wb page .

Cap and trade is a tax on western countries that have some wealth left , to provide funding for a global government .

The first thing to knowledge is finding out what the friggen question actually is .

 

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 00:01 | 324929 Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

umm, that is just UNESCO, which is nothing more then a tourist agency posing as environmentalists.  in fact most designated INESCO sites are inundated with tourists and degraded.  the UN is a waste of money who doesnt do shit.  

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:12 | 323925 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

" Sorry folks, we will see oil at $200/b before you know it....What is happening right now is everyone is printing enormous amounts of money in this Keynesian nightmare...."

Oil prices are insupportable loooong before $200 is reached......and with the exception of china, I still believe much more "borrowing" is going on than printing...


Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:11 | 323928 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

Wonderful article...and it's nice to see Michael Rivero quoted...He is seriously under appreciated and has contributed a lot in the way of providing access to a constant flow of real valuable news and opinion...

 

And yeah...ZH ain't too shabby either:-)

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:11 | 323929 theworldisnotenough
theworldisnotenough's picture

the China part of the theory makes absolute sense.

What do you do with a wasting asset (dollars)?

  1. Buy other assets with it. China is doing that.
  2. Cut long term contracts denominated in it. China is doing that.
  3. Stop buying it. China is doing that.
  4. Find an alternate store of wealth (gold). China is doing that.
  5. The master stroke is letting the yuan float freely. Increased buying power makes imports cheaper. And gives the average Chinese consumer more buying power easing the transistion to a more domestically driven economy.

China will of course not be able to dump all its dollars. As the pendelum swings back as pendelums are want to do the store of dollars they maintain will eventually gain in value.

China is really does have a few aces up its sleeve in the game of fiat poker.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:17 | 323947 Recovery3000
Recovery3000's picture

I met an official here in the US yesterday looking to buy Class A CRE real estate in order to recycle dollars.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:34 | 324006 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Pendulums only swing back when they are firmly attached to an axle which is held by an immovable object.  Fiat money is more like a vaulting pole that is half eaten by termites.  HOPEFULLY it will last long enough to get us over the ditch, and away from the tribe of angry Keynesian cannibals and back onto the solid ground of a gold standard/free currency.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 21:38 | 324801 lovejoy
lovejoy's picture

Everyone forgets that China is a mercantile economy and does not have sufficient demand domestically to buy their production. That is why they don't want a strong Yuan. It will put them out of business. product and labor will be sourced in Vietnam and other low cost countries. Fallacy to think that strong Yuan makes product more cheaper for the Chinese. They just don't have the demand. But this has been the sole purpose of globalization. The corporations running the west were running out of consumers -- our populations were not growing fast enough, our demographics sucked (we are getting older), and there was also the risk that consumption could slow. So the corporate elite decided to try and tap the 2 billion or more persons in China and India to buy their products. But it is not working out like they taught. Chinese government wants to own the production process not foreign corporations.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 22:43 | 324852 merehuman
merehuman's picture

chinese romance with cars, new infra structure and the possibility of a gold backed yuan create purchasing desire and power.

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 21:58 | 324812 DisparityFlux
DisparityFlux's picture

Hmmm,

China:  Lot's of US$.

US:  Lot's of cheap real estate.

Look's like market opportunities.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:18 | 323951 junkyard dog
junkyard dog's picture

It is never the last dance, unless you died after the last one. There may be a slight break in your dancing cycle, but once that hound leaves you, you will be back out there on that dance floor feeling up the next one; whether it be 9PM, 11PM, or 2AM. If you think at 70 years old things will be different, think again.

 

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:25 | 323977 Rogerwilco
Rogerwilco's picture

They shoot horses don't they?

A great movie if you haven't seen it --

Announcer at the contest: "Here they are again, folks! These wonderful, wonderful kids! Still struggling! Still hoping! As the clock of fate ticks away, the dance of destiny continues! The marathon goes on, and on, and on! HOW LONG CAN THEY LAST?"

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:29 | 323990 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

The Chinese may not know what they are doing, but they are doing it intentionally.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:30 | 323993 What_Me_Worry
What_Me_Worry's picture

If China were actually dumb enough to full-scale dump their treasury holdings, couldn't the US counter by re-negging on JUST their holding certs?  One thing I have confidence of here in America, it is our politican/military being able to justify anything they do and convincing a majority of the world to agree with them.  Maybe they say it is an act of aggression by the Chinese or something similar.

It's not like China can sell a $1T of holdings under the counter.

There are a lot of ways I think America could be "taken down", however I don't think the Chinese are going to be one of them.  Most likely, only America will be able to bring America down.

People forget that China has absolutely no innovation creation within its borders due to a massive corrupt government/legal system.  That is bound to lead to failure.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:37 | 324012 tmosley
tmosley's picture

lol, you mean default?  Yeah, that'll work out great.

There is no way to tell Chinese owned treasuries from anyone else's.  They can just sell them on the open market.  Once that shit hits the market/fan, it's all over.  Any action taken by the US will be too little, too late.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:44 | 324188 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

There is no way to tell Chinese owned treasuries from anyone else's.

Don't you know what a CUSIP number is?

The US Treasury stopped issuing "bearer bonds" decades ago. Yes, they do think that far ahead and are quite clever.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 21:29 | 324795 lovejoy
lovejoy's picture

USD that the Chinese own simply sit in a digital format at the FED. The Chinese do not beautiful certificates.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:34 | 324166 KTV Escort
KTV Escort's picture

No innovation creation in China? Wrong, both distant past and present ~ and whatever they don't innovate within, they can import (witness the amazing new architecture in Beijing). China is in the midst of a developing frenzy, amazing to see, really.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:10 | 324251 What_Me_Worry
What_Me_Worry's picture

At best, they are innovative at copying others' intellectual property.

There system is not set-up to reward innovation.  That is why there will be little to no true innovation in China for a long time.

Not much unlike our current system in the US the last few years, especially.  Take our financial system now.  There is no incentive for bringing (true) innovation in the banking sector.  Only those with the correct political ties can benefit.

Basically all of China is run like our banking system here.  Only those with political connection can prosper and they have no need to change anything.  Let alone, their judicial/political system basically encourages piracy on all levels of technology.  This type of economy does not produce "true" innovations, only imitations.

Lots of third world countries have pretty buildings.  Art transcends economics.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 17:40 | 324498 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

It is so obvious the financial sector has not been innovative lately.

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 22:21 | 324829 DisparityFlux
DisparityFlux's picture

Late 70's to earlier 80's:

Japan - Booming

US - Ressions

China:  Sends 1000's of it's brightest to US universities

Now:

Japan - Not so good

US - No comment needed

China - Booming

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 21:27 | 324792 lovejoy
lovejoy's picture

Agree

China cannot sell its Treasuries without harming itself and really can only do once the start build a trde deficit with us. Everyone talks about how reliant we are on China to purchase our debt. But we don't need China to buy our debt. China sold us billions of dollars of whatever and the Chinese seller were willing to take silly little green pieces of paper in return. We got Nike shoes, refrigerators t-shirts etc and the Chinese companies received a piece of paper. The Chinese companies need Yuan so that they can some bills. So they take the USD that they have received to their bank and instead of going into the market to sell USD to buy Yuan, the Chinese Central bank prints Yuan to give to the Chinese company and keeps the USD itself. The reason for this is that what to keep the Yuan cheap in relation to the USD -- mercantile economy.  The USD that the Chinese Central bank know owns can only exist at one place and that is on the books at the FED. It ends up in something akin to a checking account earning nothing. To generate a greater return, the Chinese move the move their monies to another ledge account at the FED where they putting their money in term paper. That is the only reason why they buy Treasuries.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:32 | 323996 tmftdoyle
tmftdoyle's picture

The fed tucks everybody in with another bedtime story (fomc minutes) that surprisingly say just what the market wants to hear: Things are getting better but not too good that we have to raise. The  it is off to the races again with reits, casinos, hotels, and any other over-valued, over-levered, heavily shorted, low-quality business model.

So the question becomes, is the fed this stupid or this scared.

f

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:34 | 324005 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

WOOHOO yea! Party till the keg is gone, then the peppermint schnaps, finally the mouthwash, then dig up a couple cans of Sterno...its a party till dawn and theres no cure for this kind of hangover!

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:40 | 324021 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

How does China dump treasuries w/out killing themselves?  Won't the price drop undermine that effort?

Secondly, how big of a customer is the US for China's exports?  Can China survive a big crash in export sales and replace it with domestic or sales to other countries?

 

 

 

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:48 | 324049 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

They can't dump Treasuries - the author is simply wrong in his assumptions.  The author also misses the fact that the Chinese have expanded capacity dramatically in the past year which makes the export market even more important than ever before. 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 17:26 | 324473 anony
anony's picture

If you owe $100,000 to a bank you've got a problem.

If you owe the bank a Billion dollars, The bank has a problem.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 20:42 | 324737 zgulgar
zgulgar's picture

Iagree with you to a certain point .

Lets say i go to the bank and borrow 200000 for ahouse .

the popular perception is that the bank sets aside 200k for this debt i signed for . The reality is that the 200 k is a computer entry <there are no reserves for this debt>.

So basically the bank created 200k out of thin air !!

So for the purpose of foreclosing on a house there must be an actual loss .If it was created out of thin air then the bank cant have a loss . The banking system has traded a fictional bank entry into a hard asset <your house > !!!!!!

I believe the criminal justice system defines a crime as where someone actually has a loss of property or life or somethng to those affects.

so if a bank CREATES money out of thin air how can they possibly sue for loss when they actually lost nothing ?

Things to think about .

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:51 | 324056 gator gatlin
gator gatlin's picture

Who TF is Michael Krieger?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 13:55 | 324069 KTV Escort
KTV Escort's picture

pre-last dance collapse: global economy

 

post-last dance collapse: vulture economy

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:02 | 324093 captain sunshine
captain sunshine's picture

I am glad to see someone agree with me on China. I firmly believe people will be shocked in 5 years just how strong the yuan will be. China has patience. Their leaders do not have to get elected. I am beleive this, because that is what I would do if I ran China.The only danger for China is if this bubble gets out of hand too quickly and leads to panic.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:05 | 324106 trillion_dollar...
trillion_dollar_deficit's picture

So instead they are spending like crazy on infrastructure ahead of them allowing the dollar to plunge.  Then the strong yuan will be employed to purchase all the commodities they need to utilize their infrastructure and the OECD gets priced out.

 

This just blew my mind. So simple, yet not so obvious. You don't create a civilization that lasts millenia without knowing exactly what you are doing. 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:16 | 324124 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

yeah, like Greece....

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:59 | 324222 akak
akak's picture

Zing!

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:42 | 324908 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Iron-clad logic there....  I'll bet that popped into your head immediately.   Mind like the proverbial steel trap.  ZH needs folks who think on their feet!  (FYI, nary a hint of sarcasm.)

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:44 | 324191 kohoutek
kohoutek's picture

"Then the strong yuan will be employed to purchase all the commodities they need to utilize their infrastructure and the OECD gets priced out"

And the US military behemoth will just sit by and let the Chinese consume all that lovely oil...right?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 14:49 | 324205 Crook County
Crook County's picture

lol Fidelity just sent this to me today -

Now is a good time to contribute more to your workplace savings plan. In fact, it's an opportunity you don't want to miss. By saving even a little more, you can take an important step toward a healthier financial future.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:06 | 324227 akak
akak's picture

"By saving even a little more, you can take an important step toward a healthier financial future ..."

"...a healthier financial future for Washington, Wall Street and their parasitical central bankster allies, as your savings are effectively funneled to the power elites through inflation, enforced annuitization and possibly confiscation --- 'all for the national good', of course!"

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 15:35 | 324300 Broker NotBroke
Broker NotBroke's picture

Excerpt from Commanding Heights a pbs doccumentary on the economic war of the 20th century.

1945-1948: The victorious Allies divide a destroyed Germany and its capital, Berlin, into four occupation zones. Returning soldiers and other expatriate Germans find few jobs in the devastated cities, and cigarettes and liquor emerge as key forms of currency. Price controls meant to curb inflation worsen shortages instead, until a new currency and the end of controls allows the free market to return.

 

Now I'm not saying anything difinitive but have a look at this:

http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-income/2010/04/29/10-reasons-you...

 

Gentlement, the new currency is not the amero, it's Cigarettes and Cognac. With that in mind I'd like to direct your attention to the Altria group, parent company of Philip Morris international, and several other wine based ventures. 

http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:MO

Does anybody else see anything interesting here?

 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:46 | 324601 velobabe
velobabe's picture

all depends if your a socially responsible investor. SRI

i couldn't find the several other wine base ventures on that google page?

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:47 | 324917 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Ooops:

4. Hedge against a weak dollar
With 100% of its revenue generated outside of the United States, but its reporting in U.S. dollars, the company's revenue and earnings will look even better when translated, should the dollar get weaker.

Talk in Washington about taxing overseas corporate profits may screw that pooch.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 16:50 | 324397 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

"Time to short commodities EXCEPT gold/silver. Ben-the-Idiot will have to pull back on his press accelerator soon enough or risk crashing his hyper-bubble economy with high oil prices."

I think gold will be fine long run, but I think it's set to tank in unison with oil here shortly.  I think the Euro sovereign crisis is going to result in a flight to the dollar, and gold (again, at least in dollar denominated terms) is going to get hammered.  GLL wouldn't be a bad play, I'd at least use it as a hedge. 

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 23:40 | 324907 uraniuman
uraniuman's picture

Just the rumor of China buying corn or soybeans sends the futures up 5%!  Long until.....

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:17 | 324526 Biggvs
Biggvs's picture

Hey DJ, here's a special song request from Chuck Prince and the so-called leaders of America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W7hpm0MP6k

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 18:52 | 324611 non-anon
non-anon's picture

oh yeah, the tube steak boogie!

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 19:26 | 324649 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Finally, there is some listening goin' on. Your average, arrogant, self-righteous-Amerocentric-Joe-Sixshooter trader/plebian is gonna finally be forcibly shaken awake to the fact that China's 1 billion plus makes for a market about 5 times the size of their current myopic 'only game in town' view of US consumerism. All someone has to do is give those thousands of millions a tiny bit of spending 'cash'(can y' all say 'free floating'?), and they will buy all the plastic junk we can no longer afford, produced near home using the technology we allowed our greedy businesses to hand over in the name of dropping 3 cents per item.  China is slowly but certainly getting all their Peking Ducks in a row.

The symbiosis game is over: China wins; any time they're ready to play the US succubus' song backwards.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 21:03 | 324754 B9K9
B9K9's picture

China wins any Eurasian/ME land war engagement against the US. They're lean and hungry (literally) and have us outnumbered 5:1. We couldn't fight off the VC on their home turf at the height of our power.

Take a trip outside and note the fatties - there's not 1 in a hundred who could do 20 push-ups. The only thing that made us exceptional were the people, (legal) culture & natural resources. All 3 are just about used up.

The tell wasn't the election of Obama.  The tell was when credit leverage was encouraged & promoted by incorporating it into our tax & regulatory structures to compensate for declining productivity. Uhm, that was around 30-40 years ago.

Thu, 04/29/2010 - 19:36 | 324666 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Quiz Time

Match the following financial market celebrities with the most likely cause of his demise (deciphered from Nostradamus' 854th Quatrain):

 

A. Ben Bernanke         1. See movie "Scanners" for hint

B. Hank Paulson          2. Perforated colon, Attica State Penitentiary Hospital (don't ask, but tell)

C. Jamie Dimon           3. Fatwa, issued for blasphemy

D. Tim Geithner           4. Nelson Rockefeller-style heart attack while shtupping Becky Quick

E. Jim Cramer              5. The unkindest cut, Robespierre-style

F. Lloyd Blankfein        6. Montezuma redux: molten gold cocktail

G. Warren Buffett        7.  Beaten senseless by a gang of the toughest 5th

                                     Graders this side of Parsippany

H. Dennis Kneale         8.  Chokes on roast beef sandwich; “I thought he was just stuttering!”

 

Correct answers, for those who need them, follow.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!