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Michigan Says Enough To Fed: Takes Matters Into Own Hands As It Starts Using Own Currency...And Gold

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Either in anticipation of QE2 which will cut the value of the dollar by another 50% once another $2 trillion in toxic crap becomes the "assets" backing the viability of the dollar, or just because they are sick of Fed policies, mid-Michigan has taken monetary matters into their own hands, and in one simple act, completely bypassed the destabilizing influence of the domestic currency printers. As ConnectMidMichigan reports, "New types of money are popping up across Mid-Michigan and supporters say, it's not counterfeit, but rather a competing currency. Right now, you can buy a meal or visit a chiropractor without using actual U.S. legal tender." The plan is so simple, it just may work - after all if one can't get away from the Fed's probing and pickpocketing long fingers, all one has to do is learn to live without its parasitic pieces of paper. And not just paper: "I sell three or four every single day and then I get one or two back a week," said Dave Gillie, owner of Gillies Coney Island Restaurant in Genesee Township. Gillie also accepts silver, gold, copper and other precious metals to pay for food." So yes, you can eat gold.... and load up your gas tank with it.

More from CMM:

"Do people have to accept dollars or money? No, they don't," Gillie said. "They can accept anything they want or they can refuse to accept anything."

He's absolutely right.

The U.S. Treasury Department says the Coinage Act of 1965 says "private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash, unless there is a state law which says otherwise."

That allows gas stations to say they don't accept 50- or $100 bills after a certain time of day in hopes of not getting robbed.

A chiropractic office in Lapeer County's Deerfield Township allows creativity when it comes to payment.

"This establishment accepts any form of silver, gold, chicken, apple pie, if someone works it out with me," said Jeff Kotchounian of Deerfield Chiropractic. "I've taken many things."

Jeff Kotchounian says he's used this Ron Paul half troy ounce of silver to get $25 worth of gas from a local station.

While the government and banks don't accept them, many others do.

So why is there interest in these competing currencies?

Is it just novelty or is there something deeper?

If the ruling kleptocrats, pardon, the Fed, demand on being such an intimate part of everyday life, and procuring all of the population's real wealth and cash producing assets in the process, said population has a choice of either going with this sheepish approach, and meekly allowing the loaded gun to be parked at its temple, or do what Michigan, with its 99.9% real unemployment, has decided to do.

h/t John

 

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Tue, 07/20/2010 - 14:47 | 479211 The Rogue Trader
The Rogue Trader's picture

Jack Booted Thugs seen heading to Central Michigan....

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:01 | 479248 Turd Ferguson
Turd Ferguson's picture

Hail to The Victors!!!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:34 | 479352 Number 156
Number 156's picture

Uh not so fast.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

Topic 420 - Bartering Income

Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services received in exchange for goods or services you provide must be included in income in the year received.

Generally, you report this income on Form 1040, Schedule C (PDF), Profit or Loss from Business. If you failed to report this income, correct your return by filing a Form 1040X. Refer to Topic 308 for Amended Return information.

 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:41 | 479383 ozziindaus
ozziindaus's picture

but butI only received a dollars worth of dental.

PS what ever happened to doing a mate a favor?

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:44 | 479391 YourAverageDebtSlave
YourAverageDebtSlave's picture

Just how does the IRS intend to audit that?  And do you start auditing the favors I do for friends because I know I can count on them to return favors if I need them?  Or perhaps I should price each time I get laid from a girl in exchange for taking her out on a date.  Doesn't bartering happen implicitly on a regular basis within friendships, families and relationships.  Surely the IRS can't track that.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:01 | 479468 Clayton Bigsby
Clayton Bigsby's picture

Exactly, fuck that.

Dear IRS,

Prove it.

Sincerely,

Dissent of the "Governed"

PS  eat a dick

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:31 | 479767 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Oh hell yeah.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 07:56 | 480536 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

+1

That is some funny shit! By the way, I guess we can bypass all the coming 1099 crap in the process.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:03 | 479478 ozziindaus
ozziindaus's picture

Or perhaps I should price each time I get laid from a girl in exchange for taking her out on a date.

That's a case for the local police.

But you're right. It just can't be enforced. If it can, it will tear communities apart. Everyone would be carrying stop watches to book every second of conversation since it could be misconstrued as advise. Imagine helping a granny cross the road and in return getting a BJ. How do you account for that? It's crazy.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:37 | 479784 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

How in the hell did you jump from helping a little old lady across the street to her giving you a BJ in return?

"It's crazy" indeed. :)

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 07:56 | 480537 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"Imagine helping a granny cross the road and....."

And for all these years, I tought those helpful By Scouts were just trying to be polite!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:52 | 479663 Apostate
Apostate's picture

I think it's a good thing that people are turning to barter.

But if the IRS wants to lock you up or kill you, they can do it. There's nothing they need to "prove." It's not like Law and Order where the gestapo have to "make a case."

No. They are the law.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:31 | 479769 The Rock
The Rock's picture

there are not enough gestapos to enforce it...

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:43 | 479803 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Some of the burden of proof has shifted to the IRS. From The CPA Journal Online:

Prior to the IRS Restructuring and Reform Act, there was a long-established principle of tax law that the IRS’s determinations in the statutory notice of deficiency were presumptively correct (Welch v. Helvering [290 U.S. 111 (1933)] and Rule 142(a), Tax Court Rules of Practice and Procedure). The taxpayer also bore the burden of proving that the IRS’s determinations were incorrect. A taxpayer would not prevail by merely asserting that the return was correct as filed. Other evidence was necessary to substantiate the deductions that the taxpayer claimed [Wilkinson v. Comm’r, 71 TC 633 (1979)]. The IRS ordinarily requested from the taxpayer the information that was needed to substantiate an issue during the audit. If providing the information made the issue no longer contested, it would then be considered resolved between the parties.

The IRS Restructuring and Reform Act introduced IRC section 7491(a)(1), which states that if a taxpayer introduces credible evidence about any factual issue relevant to ascertaining the liability for any tax imposed by subtitle A or B, the IRS will have the burden of proof with respect to such issue.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:26 | 479887 Kegfreak
Kegfreak's picture

Or perhaps I should price each time I get laid from a girl in exchange for taking her out on a date. 

 

It can't be that hard to figure out how much one dinner in the last five years cost you! ;p

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 23:45 | 480254 Stevm30
Stevm30's picture

dah dah duh ching!

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 17:48 | 489230 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Many, many dinners...not so much exchange.  ;)

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:45 | 479394 jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

What's your point N156?   If you exhange a service for goods or vice-versa and there is ZERO profit, there is no taxable income to report.  He gave up a certain amount in expenditures that equaled what he got in return.  There is no income gain or loss.  Good bye IRS.  The IRS should have been abolished many many years ago, but the sheep are too afraid to stand up to them.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:05 | 479491 Number 156
Number 156's picture

Well, If I make $45,000 this year, and bought $45,000 worth of asparagus, does this mean that The Fed wont ask me for my money?

 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:24 | 479579 tmosley
tmosley's picture

If you used that $45,000 of asparagus to make the $45,000 in question, then no, the IRS won't ask you for any money, as you have made nothing.  You see, with barter, it's REALLY hard to prove net income, as it becomes almost impossible to price expenses, and you can always overprice your expenses and underprice your compensation.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:07 | 479503 DiverCity
DiverCity's picture

That is exactly NOT how the infernal revenue service views the transaction you hypothesize.  You are taxed on the value of the good or service you receive in exchange for the good or service you provide.  It's the government, man!  It'll do what it damn well pleases and you will conform or else (the else being government violence).

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 20:08 | 480041 PierreLegrand
PierreLegrand's picture

Randy Weaver would have liked to comment but unable...

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:02 | 479472 hungrydweller
hungrydweller's picture

No problema, dude.  Take REAL goods and services in exchange for your goods and services.  The fiats you save or the fiats you get from exchanging received real goods (which increase in the amount of fiats you can get for them) you can then use to pay the goobermint back in its own worthless scrip.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:13 | 479540 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

IRS is nothing but our ruling mafia's collection agency. Please tell me you IRS morons who will determine "fair value" of those goods and services? I can charge WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT for services performed and do can the other party including ZERO i.e. free...ever heard of the word "free"?

Bah! only morons and sadists will report "bartering income", although, since we all have government guns pointed at our heads, it would better to keep it under the radar from them THUGS.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:23 | 479570 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

One to file away for the archives, GG:

Hearing Today on State of U.S. Coins and Currency  

By Patrick A. Heller

 

At Freedom Fest 2010 conference in Las Vegas two weeks ago, Jerry Jordan, who was president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland from 1992 to 2003, was asked if all the gold in Fort Knox was still there.  Jordan affirmatively stated that all the gold that the U.S. owned at Fort Knox was still there. He immediately revised his statement to say that all of the gold that the U.S. claimed to have in “custody” at Fort Knox was still there.  There is a huge difference between “owned” and in “custody.” Jordan’s comment is not an official acknowledgement that at least some gold reported as being held by the U.S. government is owned by others.  However, it does heighten the suspicion that this could be true.

http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=12354

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:36 | 479782 knukles
knukles's picture

Believe that the FRBNY also vaults some US gold.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:23 | 479572 jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

Indeed, we just all claim we are doing "GOD'S WORK" and its all charity for each other.  We swapped chairty services.  Then we write off the charity and get Earned Income Credit check back from IRS like the welfare recipients do who pay nothing in.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 20:43 | 480060 suckapump
suckapump's picture

Maybe this will get people's attention, because (despite its claims) I really don't think this was simple enough for people to understand. I have been trying to explain this to people, but as soon as I mention "treasury bonds" their eyes glaze over. I have found the following metaphor helpful in addressing the commoner:

Imagine the following. A banker flanked by uniformed police officers kick in your door and run into your living room where you're reading a nice book during your time off from work. One of the cops holds a gun to your head while the banker says, "Give us $10,000. We'll give it back to you in a year, maybe." You don't have the money, but you don't want to get shot or go to jail, so you max out your allowable cash advance balance on your credit card at 10% interest (if you're lucky) and hand over the cash. They leave to go "offer" your neighbor the same deal.

 

For twelve months, you make minimum payments because if you don't, the credit rating on which you rely to survive will be obliterated. At the end of the year, the bank hands back $9,000 but defaults (welches) on the remaining $1,000. You use what you got to pay down your credit card, but you can only pay down part, because not only are you short the principal, but you've incurred additional interest (not to mention the minimum payments you've been making out of your hard-earned salary).

 

Here's the insidious part. The entity that was accepting all those minimum payments and collecting interest was the same bank who came into your house and put a gun to your head to "loan" it the money in the first place.

 

Six months later you get a notice in the mail that a class action suit was filed on your behalf. The filing firm is extremely pleased to announce the class has reached a settlement with the bank who, in order to atone for its sins (while admitting no wrongdoing, of course) is lowering the interest rates on its credit cards by 0.5% and will refund the previous three days' interest charges on all of its credit accounts which are in good standing. Due to a billing cycle "error", this only includes the 1% of accounts with the largest credit limits.

That seems to perk up some ears. ;o)

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:43 | 479573 Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

Yeah, you gotta love the hypocrisy of the gov being able to fraudulently create money, the expect you to honestly tell them how much they're supposed to steal from you!

Do as I say, not as I do doesn't work for me.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:47 | 479649 Reductio ad Absurdum
Reductio ad Absurdum's picture

"I can charge WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT"

You can, but the IRS will still (officially) claim you owe taxes on the "fair market value of goods and services" exchanged. They will decide what is "fair market value" and it will not be in your favor.

Of course, just don't tell the IRS about your bartering.

The rules are there because just imagine if they didn't have such rules -- people would barter like crazy and the IRS would make no money.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 22:48 | 480205 Rebel
Rebel's picture

Yes, and is similar to private party car sales. If you sell a car to someone for $10,000, and then go to DMV to have title transfered, and both parties claim car was sold for $2,000 to save on sales taxes, state will require payment of sales tax on the book value of the car, not the claimed sales price.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 23:31 | 480250 False_Profit
False_Profit's picture

...they tried that in kansas and the public outcry was so great that they backpedalled...sales tax is paid on the amount on the bill of sale.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:29 | 479757 BoeingSpaceliner797
BoeingSpaceliner797's picture

morons and masochists?

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 22:42 | 480200 Rebel
Rebel's picture

If I remember right, a few years ago people got in trouble with the IRS for bartering. They had set up a pretty big and organized "coop", and the IRS went after them. For small "one off" trades likelihood of getting caught would be small, but as things become more organized it hits their radar screen.

Another way people get caught would be to get ratted out. Lets say a dentist routinely trades services for plumbing work, landscaping, yard work, etc. Then, receptionist gets POd about something, and turns him in. Then, they would come after him.

It is true that they do not have enough agents to catch everyone, but a strategy they use is to be so obnoxious and intrusive, that when they do catch someone, they make it so painful that it scares everyone else. 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 22:44 | 480201 Rebel
Rebel's picture

delete double post

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:46 | 479646 illyia
illyia's picture

Define "fair market". I doubt there will be a reliable standard of what anything is worth within the next six months.

Like any mark-to-market, "fair" will be what someone will be willing to pay for it. Like your house you paid 350 K for two years ago - that was just auctioned off for 65 K to a plumber... who has plenty of business and doesn't want to tie his money up in a bank(rupt) institution...

Filling that cavity?

That'll be two chickens, please...

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:05 | 479662 seventree
seventree's picture

Topic 420 - Bartering Income

Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services received in exchange for goods or services you provide must be included in income in the year received.

Generally, you report this income on Form 1040, Schedule C (PDF), Profit or Loss from Business. If you failed to report this income, correct your return by filing a Form 1040X. Refer to Topic 308 for Amended Return information.

This has been IRS policy for years and I'm surprised more people aren't aware of it. From their standpoint there is no such thing as barter. In the example given both the barber and the plumber performed a service and received cash payment, and owe income tax on that payment. The fact that the cash values of the services were identical, and therefore the parties involved did not bother to physically exchange dollar payments, is not relevant from the IRS standpoint. Also, the earnings declared by each for taxation must reflect "fair market value." In other words, the barber and plumber cannot put an arbitrary value of $1 on their respective services because such work is not typically done at that rate.

Please note I am NOT defending the IRS, or disagreeing with anyone else (such as the comments above). I just think everyone should know what they are getting into. The vast majority of barter transactions are not pursued by the IRS because they don't know about them and/or the amounts are too small to bother with. But if this trend becomes economically significant, we can expect closer scrutiny. And anyone who tries to fight the government's bagmen with Constitutional or common-sense arguments will lose. They always do.

So please, barter away with my blessing. Just don't get too visibly successful at it, and try to stay out of the news.

EDIT: Several commenters above issued the challenge "define fair value." This is a good point rationally, but the IRS is not required to be rational. They will define it, a judge will approve it, and the defendent will pay it or come to grief. Their are plenty of rulings on record to demonstrate this.

If that pisses you off (as it should) consider waitpersons and others whose livelihood depends largely on cash tips. The IRS has defined minimums for income typically received in this way, and these people can be forced to declare the minimum whether they actually received it or not.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 22:57 | 480210 Rebel
Rebel's picture

Yes, fair market value is what the IRS says it is. You can argue, but don't be surprised to come home and find a lock on your home, and a yellow seizure notice posted on the door. Like you, I am not defending IRS, just saying I want to stay off their radar screen.

I had a friend that worked at a Silicon Valley start up company. He had stock options, and the value shot up, and then the company went bust. He ended up with nothing, and never exercised his options, and made not a single cent. Due to a strange set of technicalities, the IRS showed that he owed on the gains when options were worth something, even through he did not exercise them, because of some financial "event" the company did related to a financing round. End result was that the IRS came after my friend, who was just a normal working guy. After several years of misery, he settled with them . . . in addition to any taxes he owed in future years, he would in addition pay the IRS $50K per year for what would pretty much be indefinitely. Since he was a normal working guy, it would mean that he pretty much would be working for free from then on. I have lost track of the guy so don't know how things finally ended up, but last I heard he said he was just not going to work any more and sit at home.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:12 | 479713 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Yeah, good luck tracking down even 10% of bartering activity if this kind of thing cathes on.

There may even be an app for that.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 20:01 | 480022 Pedro
Pedro's picture

I had an IRS auditor ask me directly about bartering.  Of course, I said no.  This clause is disastrous for all of us males that perform honeydo's for our wives or girlfriends in exchange for ... excuse me, while I go out and throw the trash and clean out her van.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 02:51 | 480423 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

honeydo's

Hahahah! I swear, I've never seen that before in my life! I'm sorry to go on about it but it's getting late and it caught me off guard... hahahaha! <wipes tear>

Thanks Pedro.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:01 | 479249 drbill
drbill's picture

No shit. Once this gains a little momentum it won't be long before the Fed's paper is declared the ONLY acceptable money. Welcome to the USSA.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:06 | 479268 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Unenforceable. People will move underground faster than you can believe. There has to be enough silver/gold to make it work though.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:45 | 479392 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

I'm guessing the underground economy is already in full swing among many people. People are tired of the crap and looking for anyway to cheat the system. Why not? the system has been cheating most of us for years.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:41 | 479799 dnarby
dnarby's picture

People have been bartering in states like New Mexico for decades.  They'll just do more of it.

Eventually, this will cause things that can be tracked to be taxed to the moon (think anything imported).

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 22:11 | 480172 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

Ithaca Hours, bitchezzz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_community_currencies_in_the_United_...

some people have been doing this for. . . decades.

*cough*

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:53 | 479432 dussasr
dussasr's picture

There is and always has been enough gold and silver to make it work.  The scarcity of gold and silver is pricisely what makes it work in the first place.

 

Gold and silver would simply cost a lot more in dollars under such a scenario - or more correctly, dollars would head toward their intrinsic value.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 22:15 | 480175 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

people exchange their time/talents for other's time/talents - precious metals don't even enter the equation. . .

the concept is that the individual human is the "wealth" - not something outside of themselves they've accumulated. . .

it's not a "scheme," it's a way of being.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 01:39 | 480378 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

"the concept is that the individual human is the "wealth" - not something outside of themselves they've accumulated. . .

it's not a "scheme," it's a way of being."

Nicely said CA.

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:55 | 479438 rrbluefin
rrbluefin's picture

Not just silver and gold.  Whiskey, cigs, TP and tampons also work. 

My wife thought I was crazy with the tampon idea until she went to a woman's retreat one weekend.  Two unfortunates had their little monthly "visit" and were begging for any type of feminine hygene product.

And once again, hubby is proven correct :-)

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:05 | 479489 hungrydweller
hungrydweller's picture

+1

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:55 | 479676 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

Yes, if TSHTF then feminine products do become a highly valued item... as do romance/fantasy novels. This is said directly from a woman who lived through such times in the Eastern Block when TSHTF.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:40 | 479797 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

"And once again, hubby is proven correct :-)"

You know you're going to pay and pay and pay for that?

- Ned

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:37 | 479916 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

She, obviously, doesn't follow ZH, or that wouldn't have been put forth.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 20:38 | 480072 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

dang, how does one get one of them? - Ned

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 20:41 | 480076 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Marla/Tyler--so fricken captcha says that the string can't be longer than 2?  w/minus sign I can't post, but I post!  Something is broken--I'm a fricken human (at least for now). - Ned

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 20:05 | 480033 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Tampons bitchez.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 18:01 | 489246 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

<snicker>

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:18 | 479304 ConfederateH
ConfederateH's picture

You got that straight.  New tender laws putting and end to this will be slip-streamed into some really important legislation in the near future, perhaps the "patriots saving starving minority babies from global warming" act.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:19 | 479559 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

LMFAO! The more horrible the legislation, the more innocent and well-intentioned sounding its title..hey, that's how we do business in the US of A!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:38 | 479788 knukles
knukles's picture

"Patriot Act"

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 18:03 | 489249 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Stop it with @#$%^&* KINDER and GENTLER already!  Sheesh.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 03:00 | 480428 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

At least they have the wherewithal to smurf the title. In Canada the politicians aren't even that smart. eg The province of Alberta houses its Minister for the Environment in a building called "Petroleum Place". I'm not kidding...

Regards

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:25 | 479581 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

+100   ROFLMAO

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 19:51 | 480009 Lucky Guesst
Lucky Guesst's picture

Craigslist has had a barter section for some time. Just for sh*ts and giggles I placed an ad for repair service in exchange for coins after reading this. We'll see......

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 23:02 | 480214 fishbot
fishbot's picture

Some kid apparently just bartered for a porsche after starting with just a cell phone with craigslist.
http://www.sgvtribune.com/ci_15533701?IADID
I think he's about to learn about the IRS the hard way.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 01:43 | 480386 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Lucky, it works really well. Back in the day, CL had less sleaze than now.

Just double check a lot, especially if you are a woman. Coins for labour? You might draw some weirdos!

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 03:11 | 480435 Lucky Guesst
Lucky Guesst's picture

LOL, yeah I see your point. Actually I just run the office. My husband runs the service calls. I'll be sure to keep an eye on him though! ;-)

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:04 | 479259 hbjork1
hbjork1's picture

There always been a certain amount of barter in the American farm belt.  My grandfather, who was a rural MD was often paid during the 30's with farm produce; chickens, eggs, vegetables, fruit such as peaches, pears apples and occasionally pork or beef cuts.  Repair or labor services were also exchanged.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:26 | 479329 AVP
AVP's picture

...And they should be shot on sight!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:36 | 479365 Chump
Chump's picture

+.223

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:39 | 479780 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

If you're gonna go out swinging make sure it's an M1A.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lztc048mYU8

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 08:08 | 480544 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

Arrrgh!  Why do folks still wrap their hands around the front of the magazine?  On the M1A (M-14 design) the magazine release is there - it will drop the mag on you at the worst possible time.  First lesson in bootcamp.  OK, maybe not first, but it was preached a lot..

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 10:51 | 480775 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Uh, maybe the M-14, which I've never shot, but it's on the back on the Springfrields. I use my thumb and/or web-tendon area to release. I think it's because of how people hold ARs where part of their hand is on the rifle - not so with their bad ass bigger brothers.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:38 | 479377 YourAverageDebtSlave
YourAverageDebtSlave's picture

Didn't expect ZH to be covering this, but happy to see.  Alternative currencies and mutual exchanges have been around for years. There's already several communities in the US doing this (http://www.mainstreetcash.org/  http://www.transaction.net/money/community/  ).  With mobile phone technology being what it is, organizations like cyclos.org and mopay-inc.com are inventing innovative ways to supplement national currencies or create global currencies.  Money is nothing more than an agreed upon medium of exchange.  The Fed's power is partly due to the implicit agreement of the people to use the national monetary system for the exchange of goods and services.  Fuck ending the Fed, just end the dollar.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:56 | 479445 Chump
Chump's picture

I'm down with ending the dollar in order to end the Fed, but I don't think competing currencies are desirable or feasible in the long term.  I'm open to arguments though.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:29 | 479593 Island_Dweller
Island_Dweller's picture

I'm down with ending the dollar in order to end the Fed, but I don't think competing currencies are desirable or feasible in the long term.  I'm open to arguments though.

You don't give any reasons why you "don't think competeing currencies are desirable or feasible in the long term" and you want us to give you reasons why they are?  What a lazy ass. Go back to your TV.

 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:51 | 479659 Chump
Chump's picture

Who's "us?"  I was addressing the poster I responded to, and if he or she had seemed like the angry jerk-off you come across as, I wouldn't have bothered.  Competing currencies simply don't seem desirable or feasible to me.  End of story.  One non-centrally "managed" currency does, with floating international exchange rates.  But, like I said, it's not a theory that I hold so strongly to that I would be deaf to convincing.  In fact, I would not have even made the comment otherwise.

No TV, but I suggest you take up the hobby.  It may soothe you.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:53 | 479816 dnarby
dnarby's picture

Complementary currencies are a great bridge through tough times.

After sound money is restored, they will disappear as they will not be effective as a store of value.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:12 | 479859 YourAverageDebtSlave
YourAverageDebtSlave's picture

I'd be doing you a disservice to try and explain why it will work, so if you are truly interested here are some resources from people far more educated on the subject than me.  The first half of the The Money Fix (http://www.themoneyfix.org/content/video-money-fix), google and google video search on Bernard Lietaer and reading some of his work, googling petrodollars and researching what really backs the dollar (or just watch Crude Awakening on google vids), google and google video search on Edgar Cahn.  That should give you a good start.  PM me if you want more resources. 

Lastly I'd take issue with the notion that one non-centrally managed currency is feasible.  Surely you don't think the management of the dollar with its excessive printing is feasible do you?  If so, I'd suggest you also google "countries that have experienced hyperinflation" and see how many similarities you can find with what is happening currently. 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 21:10 | 480105 Chump
Chump's picture

Many thanks for the tips and reading material.  I missed a hyphen in my previous comment.  I intended to say I'd prefer one non-centrally-managed currency (in America, not advocating for a one-world currency in the slightest).  The management seems to be the crux of the problem.  Much power in the hands of a few, political winds, etc.  The ramifications of mismanagement are grotesque, but I don't need to belabor that point in this place of course.  I'm inclined to agree with dnarby above that competing currencies are a short-term fix precisely because of problems storing wealth, but I will read your recommendations and see if I'm missing something.  It's been known to happen before, believe it or not.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:58 | 479452 dussasr
dussasr's picture

Most of the alternative currencies in use today have nothing to do with a lack of confidence in the dollar.  They are just schemes to promote local businesses since the alternative currencies can't be spent outside of the town they were issued in.  Just a stupid "save main street from Walmart" gimmick.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:28 | 479895 YourAverageDebtSlave
YourAverageDebtSlave's picture

"They are just schemes to promote local businesses since the alternative currencies can't be spent outside of the town they were issued in."

And remind me why that is a bad thing given companies like AIG and GM who are multinational corporations that the government has deemed to big to fail and as a result gives them taxpayer money.  If hyperinflation were to hit, what is wrong with having a strong local businesses.  Personally I'm much more concerned about my local economy where I work, get my food from, and live in, than the national economy.  I'd bet Californians probably have this same view right now as well.  I know some of the comments on this article have touched on state secession.  I think that's a very real possibility and if so the gimmick you speak of will probably enable some local economies to thrive while others collapse.  Lastly you state, "Most of the alternative currencies in use today have nothing to do with a lack of confidence in the dollar."  Can you back that up with anything?  Would you consider gold an alternative currency?  Can you tell me why there's been such a flock to it in the last few months?

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 22:22 | 480181 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

+++ a box of home-grown fresh organic veg, and a dozen eggs!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:56 | 479680 TinFoilHatMatt
TinFoilHatMatt's picture

Looks like both those sites are down right now.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:21 | 479874 YourAverageDebtSlave
YourAverageDebtSlave's picture

Hmm.....try this    www.mainstreetcash.org/

Transaction.net won't come up through ZH, but shows up through a google search.

It's really interesting to see how this has been alive for quite a while.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 09:05 | 480608 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture

Maybe not, we need an idea that works and not much has come forth to get things rollong again.

Communities in Germany have been doing this for over two decades and these "local currencies" have been traded along side of the Euro with no problems from Government or businesses.  The object is the date the 'currency' is created which indicates it must be used is a short specified period of time or it LOOSES it's value day by day.  In two weeks it might loose 50% so you are forced to spend it and thus stimulate the local economy.  DON"T POO POO this, it has saved these communities from the ravages of the rest of Europe and the yoyo Euro.  The are doing better than the communities that are NOT using the 'local' generated 'currency'.

No one slammed the Republican's when they said to take a chicken to the doctor.  I just traded some stained glass for a crown.  Just because the Dentist traded for stain glass does not mean he left the value off the books...his assistants loged the cost as paid, which means it goes to his taxable bottom.

A COMMENT TO ALL:

As a general , off the subject and reply,  comment on the direction of Zerohedge.....all you new Zerohedge readers...please this is not a ally full of drunks. The foul language and abusive intollerance on race, religion, sex, nationality, etc.  being used here lately will surely kill Zerohedge or make a contribution to the knowledge base worthless, if all the blog replys are worthless and vulgar.  For heaven sake why would anyone want to read your thoughts on a subject if you act and sound like a street thug.

 

Tyler...you need to get this undercontrol, it is time for a editorial on the front page that is there everyday as a reminder that Zerohedge should not treated as a wharf bar.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 14:38 | 481358 reave the sheeple
reave the sheeple's picture

A COMMENT TO ALL:

As a general , off the subject and reply,  comment on the direction of Zerohedge.....all you new Zerohedge readers...please this is not a ally full of drunks. The foul language and abusive intollerance on race, religion, sex, nationality, etc.  being used here lately will surely kill Zerohedge or make a contribution to the knowledge base worthless, if all the blog replys are worthless and vulgar.  For heaven sake why would anyone want to read your thoughts on a subject if you act and sound like a street thug.

 

Tyler...you need to get this undercontrol, it is time for a editorial on the front page that is there everyday as a reminder that Zerohedge should not treated as a wharf bar.

I suggest (re-)watching the movie Fight Club.

 

Stop projecting.  Stop worrying about what others say, or how they say it.  Slide.

Sat, 07/24/2010 - 15:14 | 486971 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Vulgarity? Yes, often in plain sight of children passersby. However your usage of the word "intolerance" is highly subjective. Semantics and history are severely distorted these days. Hopefully, those seeking truth will analyze information regardless of window dressing. Censorship, based on morality or not, often persecutes those that challenge the status quo. In other words, STFU.

Thank you,

The Free Information Society

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 18:19 | 489259 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Tyler...you need to get this undercontrol

REMAIN CALM!  REMAIN CALM!  Everything is UNDERCONTROL!  Everything is UNDERCONTROL!

(all your base are belong to us)

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 14:48 | 479215 101 years and c...
101 years and counting's picture

Over/Under:  3 days.

The time it takes Congress to overturn the Coinage Act of 1965.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:01 | 479253 Mako
Mako's picture

You do not need a government act to give you your God given Rights.  The law has not changed since time of the Magna Carta.

Why is everyone obsessed with what the government does?  You have God given Rights, not government given Rights.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:18 | 479305 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

"Why is everyone obsessed with what the government does?  You have God given Rights, not government given Rights."

Oh man -

how i've longed to hear somebody else say that...

either we're free men or we're slaves of the state...

i aint no fucking slave...and i aint scared...

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:34 | 479361 aerojet
aerojet's picture

You say you aren't scared, but you have no idea of the resources that can be brought to bear against you, then.  

 

Michigan, meh!  They have nothing left to lose.

 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:48 | 479402 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

ive been n these borders a very long time...im well aware of the resources that can b deployed by the state at the behest of the bankers which r n fact "ur" real govt.  what u dont understand is that i dont give a fuck...

repeat - "i aint scared"... do not presume to know the degree of my convictions as it relates to insisting upon being free from the oppression of the elitists.  focus on u man, ur fears, and presume to know only about urself not "what i have no idea" about...

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:51 | 479415 YourAverageDebtSlave
YourAverageDebtSlave's picture

"You say you aren't scared, but you have no idea of the resources that can be brought to bear against you, then."

 

Thankfully they didn't have that mentality in 1776.  What's the worst they can do?  Kill you?  There is a line that is crossed where freedom is worth dying for isn't it?  Sure presently we may be far from that line, but it seems to me we've continually given the government an inch and they keep taking more and more.  That line may be crossed, and at that point who gives a fuck about their resources.

It's better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees! -Emiliano Zapata

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:37 | 479608 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

What's the worst they can do?  Kill you?

 

Will they kill only you and not your family? Will they kill you quickly? I imagine that the eyes of a injured and starving child would have an accusatory look to them, no matter how much the poor, little soul loved and trusted Daddy and that thing he calls "liberty."

 

The possible risks and the possible rewards of such an endeavor would be of greater magnitude than most of us could probably imagine.

 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:59 | 479458 Mako
Mako's picture

aerojet

When he says he is not scared, he is saying he still feels Right in the face of the consequences.

But on to my point, you don't need a governement right to use your God given Rights.  It's time for people to stop being sheep sent to the slaughter.

We have choices, we may not always like our choices, but we do have them. 

http://www.reclaimmichigan.com

Now this guy knows what he talking about.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:18 | 479534 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

@ aerojet

You say you aren't scared...

Actually, he said he ain't scared. 

Big difference. Never try to reason with someone who tries to cowboy-up the conversation, and who lives Gunsmoke dreams.  It's pointless.

Palin/The Lone Ranger 2012 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:32 | 479600 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

My...my..., aren't we superior?

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:41 | 479634 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Never try to reason with someone...

 

Never say "never."

 

You Live Your Life/I'll Live My Life 2012

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:17 | 479724 Reductio ad Absurdum
Reductio ad Absurdum's picture

.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 01:27 | 480366 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Gosh, let me guess...you think Republicans are worse than Democrats.

lol

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 03:12 | 480434 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I put on my worst drawl every gosh-darn time I perceive that I am conversin' with a dumb 'Muhriken. It gits 'em all riled up 'n' sich. Not sayin' all 'Merikans 'er dumb, 'cuz they ain't cous', but the ones that can't take a little mockin' now 'n' then... well now, y'all know what I'm a-talkin' abowt.

Regards y'all

PS Hi Ho Silver: Away!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:47 | 479399 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

I aint either brother... hail hail Michigan..

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:18 | 479306 chet
chet's picture

Lots of good that did Mandela or a million others.  I'll bet that guy who disappeared after blocking the Chinese tanks feels a lot of solace from his "God given rights" right about now.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:27 | 479335 SV
SV's picture

And that's the rub.  That rub left a mark on the tank tread...

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:46 | 479811 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

They are called "crunchies" for a reason.  Neutral-steer turns. - Ned

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:29 | 479345 Geoff-UK
Geoff-UK's picture

He's not feeling much of anything these days.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:59 | 479457 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

FYI, Mandela was ultimately victorious.  It cost him plenty, but he didn't die in prison.

That Chinese guy, not so lucky...

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:09 | 479517 hungrydweller
hungrydweller's picture

But he left an important legacy.  He left an idea in China.  And you can't kill an idea.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:21 | 479566 tenaciousj
tenaciousj's picture

But with enough resources, you can beat it into submission.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:34 | 479606 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Perhaps, but it won't die.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:57 | 479824 dnarby
dnarby's picture

Correction:  You can beat it back.  Ideas never submit.

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 18:19 | 489267 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Ideas never submit.

But TV and pharmacology sure seem to help keep them in remission...

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 01:52 | 480399 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Mad, with the truth of South Africa today, not sure Mandela won anything at all.

Likewise for Gandhi/India.

All actors and all the world's a stage.

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:28 | 479337 tmosley
tmosley's picture

This is the most sensible comment you've ever made, and is probably in the top ten comments I've seen on this blog.

Well said, sir.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:01 | 479467 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Here in Virginia, the English Common Law is incorporated by act of the legislature.  But even absent that, you are correct, I have rights simply because I am here.  No one gave them to me, and I am possibly a fool if I fail to enforce them or if I assent in their abrogation.  I say possibly...perhaps I was wise to wait until enough others woke up.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 03:22 | 480441 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Why is everyone obsessed with what the government does?  You have God given Rights, not government given Rights."

Whatever, God is dead. The 'Lizard People' gave me my rights; in passing they mentioned that yours don't count for shit.

jk. Rock on Jesus; ride that dinosaur!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 14:56 | 479231 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

If you have something on point to say with respect to the currency issue please do.  To make an ad hominem is just a not going to cut it.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:12 | 479287 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

So a bad economy precludes people from having good ideas? That leaves out the USA then.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:17 | 479294 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

you still haven't made any points with respect to their attempt at a free value backed exchange media.  And I still haven't used profanity unlike yourself.  Because I don't need to. Definition number 2.

Dictionary.com: ad hominem: –adjective


1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:15 | 479545 SRV - ES339
SRV - ES339's picture

"ad hominem" and Faux News... a perfect match!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:18 | 479731 Reductio ad Absurdum
Reductio ad Absurdum's picture

Red Neck Repugnicant is Zero Hedge's own little DNC operative.

Hey Red, you show up on a site where both parties are despised and the general attitude is that the US needs to be completely reformulated, and you try to get people to dislike the Rebublicans but not the Democrats??? Really? What a pathetic existence you live.

It's truly mind-blowing to think that there's someone out there who is so convinced that the Democrats will save us that he spends all day posting anti-Republican jibes on Zero Hedge.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:59 | 479831 dnarby
dnarby's picture

+10^10

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:04 | 479842 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

Your post is more ridiculous than a goat rodeo. 

Can you please point to one single comment that I've made in support of the Democrats?  Or any post where I said that the Democrats will save us?   

you show up on a site where both parties are despised

Not true.  This site is full of right-wing bobble heads burping up their political garbage.  Why do you think I'm here?

If only you knew...

All the world's a stage. And all the men and women merely players...

 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:43 | 479928 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

And your role, as being played, is called that of a useful idiot.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:47 | 479934 Kegfreak
Kegfreak's picture

don't talk shit on a goat rodeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0LYbP3uwNU

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 23:09 | 480223 Rebel
Rebel's picture

Idiot in search of a village.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 01:36 | 480374 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

lol again.

This site is basically libertarian. Not "right-wing". Perhaps your confusion comes from the fact that it's also not "left-wing", ergo libertarians must be "right-wing". And that's why you think you're here...to poke fun at people who aren't what you think they are.

Perhaps you have not made any comments in support of Democrats, but that seems disingenuous coming from someone whose name and avatar proclaims a belief in the D-R false dichotomy.

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 02:19 | 480417 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

Au contraire, Sir Curious George. 

The left/right dichotomy is (regretfully) very much alive, despite your claim.  

I will admit, there are many at ZeroHedge who aren't fooled by double-talking donkeys or trojan elephants.  On the flip side though, there is still a laughable amount of red blooded hypocrisy from the wing-nuts around here who delude themselves into believing archaic ideologies that no longer exist.

I have particular disdain for the modern republican party because they're such. fucking. hypocrites. Small government?  Fiscal conservatism? Laissez faire?  LOL. Whatever. 

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 10:54 | 480780 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

believing archaic ideologies that no longer exist

Dare you suggest what they might be?

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:40 | 479630 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Again, such an elitist attitude!

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:47 | 479651 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Again, such an elitist attitude!

 

...and from someone who is still stupid enough to be playing The Blues vs. the Reds! game...

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 17:13 | 479717 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

+100

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:10 | 479850 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

@ Red

I'll give you one free un-junk because you were grammatically correct (and witty).

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:30 | 479346 resipsaloquacious
resipsaloquacious's picture

Yes.   I did, but since you did not get it, let me walk you through this real slow:

Is the form of a barter system used by Michiganders an idea that should be followed by other states and its peoples?

1.  Michigan, its citizens and voters (collectively, "Michigan") have overseen an historic decline its economy over the course of the last 4 decades, in effect a slow motion suicide;

2.  An example of Michgan's economic nadir is that its largest, most dynamic city, and one of the largest in the US at its peak, has broken down to the point where its citizens have to worry about packs of wild dogs.  I will repeat, the citizens of Detroit have a wild dog problem. 

4.  So, to go full circle, should one take any finacial advice, including the use of a barter system, when the role model using the barter system has made so many bad economic decisions over the last 40 years that its largest city makes NY in "Escape from New York" seem bucolic.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:54 | 479669 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Dude, the folks establishing this system are people who are successfully operating their own small businesses in what you call an "economic nadir."

 

Sounds like exactly the kind of people we should be paying attention to these days. If you don't want to play, you don't have to, but it's still a very interesting development, don't you think?

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:00 | 479832 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

resip... (I think I'll re-sip, then answer).

"Is the form of a barter system used by Michiganders an idea that should be followed by other states and its peoples?"

It is a form of barter that is alive and well, it has come up here before and I've been digging in to it.  For instance:

http://www.ithacahours.org/ talks about their program, but what knocks me over is how it has/is spreading, e.g.:

http://www.ithacahours.com/otherhours.html listing other cities.

OK, OK, Ithaca is "Ten Square Miles Separated From Reality."  What interests me is the confluence of the independent survivors with the (I'll say it) "Moonbat" big-government redistributionists (but not when it comes to their money).  So Moonbats doing as they do, not as they say.  Go figure.

And, to top this off, it avoids the NY sales taxes at all levels.  Patterson can't see this going on as he presides over NY going bk.

But it is all legal, since the gift-giving limit is, what? $12k?  Maybe that is personal vs. business transaction, that can be worked out.

- Ned

 

 

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 23:12 | 480224 Rebel
Rebel's picture

I don't think the "Lone Ranger" strategy of standing up the the man will work very well. If one wanted to stand up to the man, they would need "cover" from some sort or recognized entity. Perhaps some state legislatures will have the cahunas to take a stand against federal government, and then give people something to organize around.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:35 | 479364 resipsaloquacious
resipsaloquacious's picture

How am I attacking Michigan's character by pointing out Detroit's rabid dog problem, which points to a rather fundamental quiality of life issue, which points to, on a larger scale, the decision making abilities of State, in general?

An ad hominem attach would be something like: Why should we care what Michigan does they are as stupid as a rabid dog in Michigan. 

See THAT is an ad hominem attack.   Pointing out a fact about a state's economy (and yes, a rabid dog problem does say something about Detroit and Michigan's economy) cannot be considered ad hominem when the finanical acumen of people living in that state is relevant.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:41 | 479381 -Michelle-
-Michelle-'s picture

That's not an ad hominem attack.  An ad hominem attack is not attacking someone's character.  It's stating that an argument is invalid based on the character of the person rather than anything concerning the argument itself.

You stated that an alternative currency exchange that originated in Michigan should be disregarded due to another Michigan city's inability to control its feral dog population.  The validity of the alternative currency exchange has nothing to do with feral dogs in Detroit.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:48 | 479403 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Can I book you guys for my dinner party? We always struggle to come up with exciting conversation.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:29 | 479592 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Can I come also?  I promise not to rummage in the garbage cans.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:51 | 479660 Return2Sanity
Return2Sanity's picture

You know if they keep trading insults, the IRS will classify this thread as barter and expect someone to pay tax on it.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:49 | 479936 Kegfreak
Kegfreak's picture

I believe it could be classified as banter!

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 18:36 | 489286 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

They will probably need some more new agents for that.

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:52 | 479406 resipsaloquacious
resipsaloquacious's picture

HAH!  Now you are confusing me!  I know, I did not make an ad hominem attack!  I made a joke, which apparently you did not get.  While disappointed, I will get over it.  Read the above comments as to why I believe any state that has a feral dog problem its its largest city should be considered a monetary policy think tank. 

Christ, this comment thread is like a convention for those with aspergers!

(FYI, that is an ad hominem attack.)

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 16:46 | 479648 -Michelle-
-Michelle-'s picture

No, it isn't, but anyway...

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 01:45 | 480391 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

dude just keeps digging himself deeper and deeper.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!