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Michigan Says Enough To Fed: Takes Matters Into Own Hands As It Starts Using Own Currency...And Gold
Either in anticipation of QE2 which will cut the value of the dollar by another 50% once another $2 trillion in toxic crap becomes the "assets" backing the viability of the dollar, or just because they are sick of Fed policies, mid-Michigan has taken monetary matters into their own hands, and in one simple act, completely bypassed the destabilizing influence of the domestic currency printers. As ConnectMidMichigan reports, "New types of money are popping up across Mid-Michigan and supporters say, it's not counterfeit, but rather a competing currency. Right now, you can buy a meal or visit a chiropractor without using actual U.S. legal tender." The plan is so simple, it just may work - after all if one can't get away from the Fed's probing and pickpocketing long fingers, all one has to do is learn to live without its parasitic pieces of paper. And not just paper: "I sell three or four every single day and then I get one or two back a week," said Dave Gillie, owner of Gillies Coney Island Restaurant in Genesee Township. Gillie also accepts silver, gold, copper and other precious metals to pay for food." So yes, you can eat gold.... and load up your gas tank with it.
More from CMM:
"Do people have to accept dollars or money? No, they don't," Gillie said. "They can accept anything they want or they can refuse to accept anything."
He's absolutely right.
The U.S. Treasury Department says the Coinage Act of 1965 says "private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash, unless there is a state law which says otherwise."
That allows gas stations to say they don't accept 50- or $100 bills after a certain time of day in hopes of not getting robbed.
A chiropractic office in Lapeer County's Deerfield Township allows creativity when it comes to payment.
"This establishment accepts any form of silver, gold, chicken, apple pie, if someone works it out with me," said Jeff Kotchounian of Deerfield Chiropractic. "I've taken many things."
Jeff Kotchounian says he's used this Ron Paul half troy ounce of silver to get $25 worth of gas from a local station.
While the government and banks don't accept them, many others do.
So why is there interest in these competing currencies?
Is it just novelty or is there something deeper?
If the ruling kleptocrats, pardon, the Fed, demand on being such an intimate part of everyday life, and procuring all of the population's real wealth and cash producing assets in the process, said population has a choice of either going with this sheepish approach, and meekly allowing the loaded gun to be parked at its temple, or do what Michigan, with its 99.9% real unemployment, has decided to do.
h/t John
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Glad you clarified that at the end, because after your earlier reference I was trying to piece together what you might have meant by an ad hominem joke.
@" Read the above comments as to why I believe any state that has a feral dog problem its its largest city should be considered a monetary policy think tank. ''
.
let's be clear, are you saying that if i have a dog, and that dog is rabid, and
i live in some other state, say miami, that i could be considered an
expert on sound monetary advise? perhaps, even if i do NOT let my dog
run unleashed.
.
but, there is always the angle that, as with alcoholics in AA, they make pretty
good contacts should one feel the need to merge with the urge.
.
were back to the point, just makin' a joke.
Miami is only a state of mind.
I hope that wasn't a ad hommiemum.
hommiemu don't play that, see?
Very well said Michelle
Some of us actually got the humor. Of those that didn't, some thought (mistakenly) the joke directed at them. Sometimes you just can't win.
...
"ad hominrm"
Best to let authority to speak to the definition.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem
CAPCHA SHIT
The article mentions nothing about Detroit. Anyone who's been to Michigan should know the difference between the suburbs and The "D". Remember that the surrounding suburbs are still amongst the most affluent in the US. Bloomfield Hills, Birmingham, Grosse Point etc. More importantly is that Michigan has had more than it's fare share of time to hatch a scheme to maintain purchasing power (if that's the outcome). Add to that some guns, plenty of wildlife to hunt, abundant water supply and I guess it must be big hit around here.
Does Deerfield Township really count as a Detroit suburb? It's over 60 miles away.
No but it certainly does not lie within the city limits of the 313 which was my point.
1. This is not an action of the State of Michigan, so your point about looking to a "fucked up" State is irrelevant and shows a weak grasp of the actual topic.
2. We can assume this is a very, very small minority of people currently engaging in this activity. Perhaps this is the minority's way of dealing with the very same fucking up of the State economic situation that the mob majority has wreaked upon Michigan. Not everyone flees a shitty situation; some try to alter it.
3. At some point, America's economic situation will be largely indistinguishable from Detroit's, for example. When a small minority of people begin work to rectify the situation, will you cast the same foolish comments at them? "Yes, let's look to America for a solution. The home of obese behemoths, second mortgages, and HELOCs out the wazoo!" Sometimes a good idea is a good idea, regardless of where it originates.
4. The only person coming off as a jackass is you.
Don't knock dog....that is some good eats right there.
My first thought, too.
Times might not be so hard if there are too many feral dogs as yet.
But.., is it safe to eat a dog with rabies? That's the only question I have. Cause if it is, then a dead dog might be worth 2 cats, or a silver dime, or whatever...
No.
Some people call it the wild dog problem, the hungry call it the wild dog solution.
Well, now we know where our next war will be fought. Stupid Michiganites....do they think they live in a free country or what?
Maybe, we can hope, it catches on.
Yes, what fools they are. Don't they realize that the bombs will begin to fall?
Well, now we know where our next war will be fought.
As I understand it, Michigan has the largest state militia in the country.
"Militiagan"
Michiganers?
Simple yet obvious answer to the vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity...instead of saying 'Game over man, GAME OVER', just say 'No' to their fiat BS crapolla. Just make your own damn economy and screw the FED. Of course most of those whining the loudest about the usury central bank system are the ones least willing to give it up and depend on it themselves, typical battered spouse syndrome.
As cool as this is, it's a non-story given that only a small handful of people are participating.
Wake me up when a statistically significant number of people are involved.
starts with two people exchanging bananas. how else should it begin?
+100
curious when/how maObama makes us 1099 bananas
Ooooh, bananas and Obama, you RACISTS you!!!!!
How dare you sleep at a time like this?
Somebody shave his eyebrows. Chumba?
Sort of a related story from July 14, 2010...
'Higher education fund buys gold over economic worries'
AUSTIN — Fearing unstable international financial markets and the possibility of high inflation, Texas' higher education investment managers have bought more than $500 million in gold.
The gold purchases represent only 3 percent of the University of Texas Investment Management Co.'s $22.3 billion in investment funds, but it indicates how deeply the fund managers are concerned about the global financial future.
With the state's endowment funds designed to generate a 5.1 percent distribution each year to the University of Texas and Texas A&M University, it is rare for the investment managers to put large sums of money into a commodity whose value usually only grows through inflation.
"Recently, we've added 3 percent, 3 percent of our portfolio, into gold as a protection against inflation, but even more as a lack of confidence in financial markets due to extraordinary government fiscal and monetary stimulus," UTIMCO CEO Bruce Zimmerman told the University of Texas board of regents Wednesday. "I wish I could tell you the future looked rosy. Unfortunately, that's not our view. At best, we believe the future is uncertain."
Other executives suggested the endowments have begun to recover from the staggering losses of 2008 and 2009.
UTIMCO manages investments for all UT system schools and for the Permanent University Fund, which provides money to both UT and A&M. Its assets dropped by almost $3 billion, to $20.5 billion in 2009.
It now is up to $22.3 billion.
"We feel like we've stabilized," said Scott Kelley, executive vice chancellor for business affairs.
Ripple effect
Donations dropped sharply in 2009, too, with UT schools reporting almost $200 million less in gifts than it received in 2008. Zimmerman said donations have begun to pick up again.
Even so, the losses will continue to ripple through university budgets for years to come.
"There has been an erosion of purchasing power," said Bruce Myers, an investment adviser with Cambridge Associates.
Universities use money from their endowments for scholarships, faculty salaries and other priorities. Because most base their withdrawals on a three-year average, the impact of a few bad years can linger.
Zimmerman said he will ask regents next month to approve new investment targets. Wednesday's meeting was a preview of what investment managers may try.
For example, he said, high levels of debt in U.S. real estate will give UTIMCO some investment opportunities to buy distressed securities, but he said it also will mean the national recovery will be "a longer, slower workout."
If all goes well, he said the UTIMCO diversified investment portfolio will have a 5.82 percent rate of return. With a growing economy and falling inflation, that could go up to 7.53 percent. Zimmerman said, however, there is a possibility that economic growth will fall while inflation rises and that would cause the portfolio to lose 1.2 percent of its value.
Investments in gold, natural resources and hedge funds are a means of countering that possible trend, he said. He said most of the gold purchases have been through futures trading, but he said UTIMCO may take physical possession of some gold.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/7108909.html#finalframe
That could be seen as a catch-22 statement.
__ minus 37 equals one.....woohoo! hope i get this one right.
Don't wake up. Take the blue pill and do not come back to ZH. Thank you.
hahah!
thought-provoke-cattle-prod utilised, *ZAP*
fizzzzzzle
All of the savers and the 'responsible' ones will be all for a competing currency. Trouble is the debtors (including states, munis, mortgagee's, etc.) all will enjoy the debasement.
I like the idea tho...
OT: on Ran Squawk ticker: "Obama says US going to be aggressive in reducing budget deficit." You can't make this sh*t up.
obama sure says a lot of stuff, too bad thats all he does
O-duffer sez: "Another round of 18 please."
Michigan Bitchz!
He got $25 worth of gas for only half an ounce of silver?
Put's the spot price in perspective...
Those have some numismatic value due to their rarity, after the Feds seized the operation a couple of years ago (along with all the silver and copper).
I think you can get them on Ebay for about $50/oz, so that is probably about right.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220626338422&rvr_id=&...
Ah, that makes sense. Still, it's interesting that an even exchange was made. $25 worth of gas for a coin selling for $25. No premiums.
Seems like a definition of money in there somewhere.
both sides saved the premium - Ned
What would be interesting would be for them to go on a Silver Dollar standard. That way they could accurately report sales for Income Tax purposes as being $1 but get the benefit of exchanging $17 in services.
$17? I would think the public will value silver much higher than the paper controlled COMEX number.
I can only tell you the IRS party line. Tax is due and should be reported on all income regardless of the source, whether bartering, trading, etc....... The taxable amount is based on the fair market value of those items exchanged.
As I said in an earlier post, if you are exchanging a chicken for some vegetables, a non-cash transaction, and you have no Federal Reserves Notes, what will the IRS get? a gizzard? There are laws that will eventually put you in jail, but if everyone did it, the jails would be full.
With regard to the article. Given sufficient time, all it takes in a pin hole leak to bring down the Hoover Dam.
Sure, but reporting completely falls apart except with dollars. A barter exchange is not easily traceable, quite plausibly deniable.
Hey, Monkey Girl! You are at all the gold hot spots.
If you have not heard (read) my previously posted tale of the $50 car, here 'tis:
A friend wanted a used car for a kid going to college so he visited a local used car dealer. He negotiated his best price for a clunker and gave the dealer a 1 ounce gold Eagle in payment. The car dealer made out the paper work for a sale for $50. The buyer registered the car and paid sales tax on a $50 price. The dealer wrote down the car loss based on the fiat dollar cost for the car. Everybody except the Ponzi-Powers came out ahead. Simple stuff really. And, yes, gold is a perfectly good currency. The silver and gold Eagles are legally issued for legal tender.
I love the real money.
No, I haven't read the $50 thing. Interesting.
If everyone did it we would call it freedom. The Feds just made friends with 2.5 million 99-weekers again. They taketh, and giveth away.
Duplicate Post
Triplicate Post. Wow, never had that happen. I'll be watching for the men in the black suits : )
"Jeff Kotchounian says he's used this Ron Paul half troy ounce of silver to get $25 worth of gas from a local station"
Half ounce of silver for $25. worth of gas? Quite the exchange rate.
DO NOT let Douchebag Denninger see this story! You can also bet that the disingenuous SOB will NEVER cover this story, as he sits fondling his FRNs.
I also notice how quiet he has been since his weekend RANT about the Gulf disaster, as it appears that much of what Matt Simmons et al has been saying is being proved viable if not true.
Denninger doesn't like the Fed any more than anyone who regularly reads this forum. He just isn't that into gold. That doesn't make him a bad person. In fact he regularly points out how corrupt the Fed and banksters are. What's odd is that he seems reluctant to take the next logical step which is the doing away with fiat money.
You are Preaching To The Choir !!!
Every passing day has proved Matt Simmons more and more laughably wrong.
Yeah, we should all take BP's words as gospel. After all, they haven't been caught out lying once.
Oh, really? Simmons' ranting still looks like used horse fodder to this old but real engineer. The fact that you'd even bring it into this thread makes you look like a troll.
How is the IRS gonna get paid? (NOT) what a great way to usurp the Fed gubmint
Knowing some Michigan residents as I do, with LEAD!
Wrong about Simmons, b ut right about this. Just left MI for my retirement farm in another state, but I can vouch for the fact that the so-called Michigan Militia of the Clinton era is not dead.
Well - well - you still have to pay tax on income( In Dollars) - even if you accept payment in chicken pies. Thats what gives Fiat Money its power - its the only form of payment acceptable for taxes.
Yes, and a few years ago, I believe 2008, the IRS issued new rules regarding the tracking of barter (which is what any exchange for this NOT using official money is). Said regs are quite onerous. And that barter currency still has to be converted to FRB's to pay all taxes.
So, expect three things if this takes off.
1. The IRS, with strangely not a single media story, will descend on the area and punish people severely.
2. Meanwhile, the media will glom onto a few stories of some poor dumb bastards who accepted their "life savings" in these outlandish fake money schemes and are now homeless and destitute.
3. The BATF tipped by the IRS will desend on an eeeeeeeeeeviiiilllllllllllllll militia compound using the eeeeevviiillllll non FRB money. All will be shot dead "resisting". Schemes to use such "funny money" will be ruled terr-rrist activities. No need to overturn the 1965 law at all.
Yeah, but if they went to Silver Dollars, those are still legal tender and the buyers and sellers could do their accounting on a legal tender face value basis.
Yes, that is an out, but there just aren't that many to circulate, and if there were, bet the government recalling them.
It's been done before.
Thanks for the link! Great stuff... I will pursue this a bit more.
It would have to be this way or a U. S. dollar bill would have an "intrinsic value" of toilet paper. Precious metal coins (or clad coins) are legal tender valued at "face value".
All this may give new meaning to the notion of deflation!
You gotta luv it.
Yeah, but if they went to Silver Dollars, those are still legal tender and the buyers and sellers could do their accounting on a legal tender face value basis.
I'm sure most of you remember the story of this Las Vegas business man who did something like this. Here it is if you haven't heard of it.
http://waronyou.com/topics/employers-gold-silver-payroll-standard-may-br...
Gold and silver is payment for all debts, says the Constitution. IRS is wrong to do that.
http://www.constitution.org/constit_.htm#con1.10.1.5
And yet strangely, after your trial, you'll still end up broke and in a prison cell...
Two accurate posts in a row, sigh.
End the Fed!
Last I read about it, you can barter all you want, but the things you offer (or accept) in trade cannot be part of your ordinary means of making a living for either party. So, if I'm a plumber, and you're a veterinarian, I can trade you a hunting knife for a blanket, but that chiropractor is gonna be required to pay taxes.
Well said Misean. The problem is that the middle class doesn't really understand the meaning of "tax slave". They should read up on the American Revolution because a repeat is the only way out of this mess.
Natch.
Why do you think it's income that the feds tax (and withhold via corporate bullying) and not property? You'd be surprised how ineffective the feds would at collecting property taxes from some rural counties.
+ 1776
Taxes? for what? No WAY! They dont represent me or mine, so why pay?
Besides, they can print it! Not much point working for it , just adds to what i owe IRS. So i fixed it to where i dont need money.
Gardening is my answer.
Watch for GG to be all over this article like a wet blanket.
"So yes, you can eat gold"
Huh, no you are exchanging the gold to eat. If the meal and supplies to create the meal never show up, which is what is going to happen, yes, you will be down to eating your gold.
Production will continue to decline, Gold supplies will either stay the same or increase some.
Just like you exchange FRNs to eat.
Correct.
Actually you are expanding a credit system until it implodes, once the credit system implodes all that production is going to be shutdown.
You won't be going to walmart to exchange gold for food, their won't be any food on the shelves, eventually stores will continue to close up. You are pulling forward demand, that demand will go poof once the credit system finishes it's collapse.
You have wackos that flag my post, what do they think, do they think production of goods is going to continue... hahahahah. Once the credit system goes, all that production is going to go with it and you will be left with all the lies to deal with.
These nutbags have no idea of the shitstorm that is coming down the pike, all the while virtually every ounze of gold every produced will be still on the table. All the gold ever existed during the last time the credit system imploded, didn't save anyone, 100+ million dead, many of them with gold in their pocket or in their teeth.
Walmart doesn't produce food. They sell it. Producers will accept whatever form of payment they want to. I'm willing to bet that many of them will happily accept gold, silver, or whatever else holds value independent of government fiat.
It will work for a while, production will continue to decline, Europeans were starving to death and they were the world's largest holder of gold at that time. So what? credit system collapse, after that liquidation.
Producers will stop producing for the lack of demand. In Europe they resorted to dumping grain into the sea in the hope to raise prices, while on shore people were starving to death. Europe was the largest holders of gold.
Production capacity was never a problem, there was plenty of capacity... the capacity was shutdown.
Barter will work for some, then you have the mass others that it won't work for. You will never feed 7 billion with barter, someone is going to have to go.
Farmers will do exactly what they did last time, stop production.
So which was it? If people were starving to death, there was obviously demand. What was keeping those people from trading something with the farmers in exchange for food?
Trade what? Production was being shutdown.
Large production does not run off of money or gold, those operations were off of credit and interest. No credit eventually leads to production cutoff.
Sure you can barter, but you are not going to feed 7 billion without a credit system. Farmers will be shutting down production. At the end of the day you still have the same amount gold. Large production increases have occurred due to use of credit, remove the credit, well good luck.
Once the illusions are destroyed you are left with simple Truth. The last time 100+ million figured out the Truth in a very unfriendly way.
Plenty of production capacity, matter of fact, they eventually change the capacity to make bombs and bullets to destroy the production capacity at a greater rate.
Why would farmers shut down production? Wouldn't a currency collapse just send us back to agragarian society? At the end of the day, people need food, water, shelter and clothing. Those who can provide all four would in order to exchange goods and services for things they want. Sure it won't be on a large scale, but production won't stop bro. Suggest you watch the Power of Community on Google Vids.
Where will they get the fertilizer? Fuel? It's all going small-scale. Local. If you don't live in Florida you won't eat oranges for a long time. 43,000,000 on food stamps - completely at the mercy of a crumbling system. Social upheaval will finally overcome efforts to keep the JIT inventory on shelves. The gov't will become increasingly violent as the psychopaths in charge attempt to maintain control. Be far, far away when the DC stumbles.
Goats, chickens, vegetables, local foraging, self-defense - all in a rural community. Making it alone is too difficult for most. Make the connections now, not with random neighbors on your block, but with those that are willing to prepare near the same level as you - otherwise they will be counting on helping you consume your resources. I have people mention to me all the time, "I'm glad you're prepared with silver, canned food, and guns. I know were to go!" They of course are not happy when I explain that they will have to bring their own food. It's not about having a last laugh - it's tragic, really, that with a bullet train of chaos approaching they do nothing. They even explain that they would not want to live in a scenario where they would have to do work to produce their own food and "watch over their back".
History will repeat itself. Humans forget that gravity is painful once ignored.
truth.
you're on a roll here WW - good stuffs. . . it's heartening to read more and more posters here, and elsewhere, nodding to my reality. . .
it's not that hard a concept people, but it DOES mean you have to give up your "individualist" mentality, and cultivate an ability to work with others. . . not only on land, but within communities (and that can be defined however you like). . . in order to be trusted, you have to learn to trust - it's not something you just try on like a new T-shirt, or a mask either. . . I've seen people come "in" and want to impose some type of "hierarchy" organising crap - they get shown the curb pretty quickly. . . the truth is, some people have been living like this - self-reliant, sufficient within community - for years, decades even. . . if you think you can go from valuing monies 'n' toys 'n' stuffs to a community that places little to no value on those things, you're sorely mistaken.
"sorely" being a descriptive.
Right, there is no food production without the credit system. All farmers will stop working and sit down. Got it.
It won't be that farmers will go on strike, it'll be that they can't get fuel to run their tractors, or seed and fertilizer for their fields. All farmers live on credit for 90% of the year.
I know, but if you have a farm supply and your customer has a farm you should be able to work something out. That's how credit originally worked, between two people. It still works that way in lots of places. Farmers in India don't have Mastercard.
The working out agreement is not working out, nor could it work out long term. That is really what the credit system is.
Agriculture predates the credit system. People have to eat and they always will. You are just wrong.
Yet they were not getting food last time. I guess history is wrong. You should go see the real history of Russia, makes my stories of Western Europe look like childs play.
I guess next, Hilter never existed.
Food will be the last to go though. Really that is what has happened so far, give the house back to the bank, take what money you have and spend it on iPads and food.
During WW2 in occupied Europe, on weekends people would fan out from the city on their bicycles to barter for food from farmers. They would take whatever they had that had value and trade for potatoes bread cheese vegetables or a chicken.
Both sides knew the official paper money was worthless. They also knew if they got caught they would be in serious trouble as black market racketeers and saboteurs.
Still it went on all the time according to my Dutch relatives who lived through it. Probably the same thing went on in other countries.
[deleted]
People have to eat and they always will.
Actually that's not entirely true. People have to eat but they won't always have to. Death from starvation tends to cure that need. Not trying to be flippant, but if you think "need" is going to fuel the supply and production chain, then you had better think again. That's the argument of the looter and it will be shown to be absurd as this all burns down around us.
I used to think Mako was just a silly nihilist, but I'm starting to see that he's absolutely right. What do you think those 40 million on food stamps or the millions on unemployment are going to do when everything comes to a screeching halt? Wait for the government to get things in order? No, "people have to eat..."
Subsistence farmers in many parts of the world may work on a one-on-one basis, but industrial nations with only 5% of their people engaged in farming need industrial farms, and by that I don't mean giant agribusiness, I mean the family farmers in, say, Ohio, where I now live. They need a whole galaxy of high tech stuff to make their farms as productive as they are, and without credit to move that technology to the farmer, he'll have to drop back to a technological level that will not feed the masses in the cities. The only folks who live at that level now are the Amish, of whom we have quite a few in my area. They feed themselves well, but they do not have large amounts of surplus to sell.
Food production will be the last to go, just like last time.
Farmers quit in the 30s, the ones in debt lost the farm, the only thing that helped was almost 45% of Americans were farmers back then.
Lack of credit creation>lack of demand = shut the farm down
In Europe the dumped grain out at sea in the false hope it would raise prices. Delusional people working with desperation. America somewhat missed a true bottom for Europeans got tired of going hungry and hired Hilter to put people out their misery.
They don't call it a death spiral for nothing. I figure a billion or two are going to have to go right at the beginning and probably more after that over a longer period of time.
There is no reason for any of this to happen. Not a good one anyway. It may come to pass, but I would rather see another genocide of the banker clan, good riddance.
Billions killed over math and a balance sheet? Fuck that.
It sucks, can't disagree with you. I disagree with you slightly though.
I consider virtually all humans as Bankers. Taking more than they put in.
We have other choices, humans continue to pick the same choice, well, the final result is going to be the same.
+1
Mako,
You always scare the piss out of me and I thank you.
But it's not really about math and a balance sheet, is it? Something far more insidious.
+100
The problem is, those billions who may be liquidated were originally 'created' via magical credit entries on the balance sheet. Once that bubble pops...well...they're (we're?) hung out to dry.
Without the magical debt game, growth over the past hundred years or so would have been much, much slower.
Our predecessors sold us out for a quick boost of future juice.
Not just Europeans. Roosevelt's adminstration bought and dumped large amounts of farm products, in a bid to maintain prices. Delusional, fer sher.
But you're right about the percentage of people on farms back then. And many people who were not actually farmers grew food on whatever land they could find. My old Dad was one of those - he was an engineer for his day job, but ran a full acre of vegetables all summer, which Mother canned and we ate through the winter. He also kept chickens which gave us fresh eggs almost every day, and turkeys, which we ate.
BTW, if you want a punishment that's worse than death, have the miscreant shovel out a chicken coop on a hot summer day. Man, I'd love to see Blankfein doing that job!
Merlin, you are the Wizard.
I grew up next to an Italian family (parents refugees from WWII, brought mother-in-law, moved to New England of all places), dad a day laborer and would come home to work about 1.5 acres. Kids from 3 on up weeding, hauling, improving, turning compost. I'd go to help (after working my dad's little plot). After sufficient work, I got invited to dinner, had earned my keep I guess. The garage was not for cars, it was for shelf after shelf of canned veggies etc. My dad would trade pepper relish for "gravy".
Later, I figured out the family finances, all of the food was self-generated or bartered from that. All of the dollar earnings went to paying down the mortgage. They went clear in <10 years on a 30 year mortgage.
I haven't thought about these great folks in 40 years. Different kind of immigrant from many today.
- Ned
++ precognition points.
amazing to think that some people still think, and live similarly, hmmm. . .
I'm not sure your logic is completely sound. All demand doesn't cease during the final credit implosion, the bubble goes away, though. All those who made investments based oon bubble era information (think: homebuilders) are shit out of luck. But no food? That's a stretch.
Someone is going to have to go. Last time it was contained to Europe and Asia mostly. This time the system is probably 10 fold bigger, bigger the guy, the harder he falls.
If someone doesn't have to go, well I guess one day the Earth will be populated by 1 trillion humans, good luck with all that. Someone is going to have to go.
Holy crap. You are right. Never thought of that. I used to do mind games with peak oil. If peak oil is correct, then the end game is that the entire food production system will collapse since most of the input will be lost. Once the input is gone, no more food for 6 billion people.
I guess the credit system is almost the same story. And guess what, the credit system is dollar based. And if the USD collapses, yikes.
Is there any war games type of thing done for this?
Any one?
You guys need to get some perspective.
The entire US population could fit comfortably in the state of NEW HAMPSHIRE.
http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/450-the-united-states-of-bro...
D.U.M.B.s - Deep Underground Military Bases
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDLf7_JE7zk
Mako, Tom Malthus was wrong. Economic instability, yep, I'm there as a realistic possibility. Implication of population explosion? Not so much, esp. since correlation of economic progress is negative on population growth (as well as on pollution).
But the "sustainable" crowd is in your camp. I can't figure out "sustainable" except in dark Weather Underground terms.
Stand on Zanzibar, baby.
- Ned
Oh there's a counter-meme for that...
The angle was that more highly-educated individuals tend to earn more and thus consume more. Of course, the likewise-correlated reduction in birthrate was ignored...Perhaps because the whole notion is meant to counter this fact. IOW -- cognitive dissonance in action. "How may I make you feel guilty today? Let me count the ways."
I can't site the article at the moment but it was from within the last few months.
It'll be rough for a while...but then hopefully, the credit system goes away, along with the parasite bankers and their confetti, and we go back to what worked for 500 years, real bills.
IOW, a REAL credit system, not a ponzi one with rolling credit.
You have made "credit" and this system coextensive and they very clearly are not
Agreed, conflating real money with credit-money is a mistake. The real economy will be, say, 10% of the bubble economy. Small communities with self-sufficiency will survive. Big cities will not. Bad times are ahead, but there will be ways to survive.
I see states seceding soon. Especially the few financially viable states. I am surprised there isn't more talk of it.
Secession may be a result of a collapse not the cause.
That occured once before. Then Abraham Lincoln decided to ignore the Constitution and invade America.
+ 1861
Don't expect the federal government to let the slaves escape without a fight. The question is what will the army do? IMO, state militia's are as important as PM currency.
Why use the army when they can use Xe, Dyna Corp. and Triple Canopy? Just keep the army away from the friends and family fighting for their freedom and have them securing the oil pipleines in Iraq, Iran, or Afghanistan.
Both Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy were assassinated while they held the high office of President of the United States. Both of these former presidents had also created their own money system to run the United States while they were in office is this just a coincidence?
While i'm a strong advocate of states rights, and saddened by the war of aggression against the southern states some 150 years ago, one must remember that the divide that caused it was planned and executed by the European Banking elite set on destroying this country's future.
+1
god bless mid michigan - may their tribe prosper and increase....all of america should follow its lead....
i hope this does not go the way of forgotonia or waco....i have the feeling atf, fema, or some other nazi organization of the government is going to shove an m-60 under their collective butts....
Why is my gold tarnishing?
Is it Russian?
we knew the day would come...only the beginning
http://www.mundogold.com
Count me in! ;-)
If you are going to pay those prices for silver you should be buying Silver Eagles.
More recognizable than "silver rounds" and will be much better for trading.
Gold is the currency of Kings.
Silver is the currency of gentlemen.
Barter is the currency of peasants.
Debt (The US$) is the currency of slaves.
+++ nicely put
never seen that one before.
Well said !
Barter and alternate currencies have been used for a long time. Shit ain't new. Always Sunny in Philadelphia examined the use of alternate currency a couple of years ago.
I know, someone just wanted to beat off to a use for Gold. Good thing it wasn't to the trade Chickens.
I'm not sure I would use "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" as an example for anything to do with the real world.
there have been local, regional currencies for a while now in some parts of some states. The North Carolina "Plenty" comes to mind.
http://www.ncplenty.org/scrip.php
This isn't going to do squat, because people can't pay their BILLS in alternative currencies, and people are heavily in debt. So this isn't even on the Fed's radar.
This thread belongs in the Kitco forum with alien abductions.
Time-based exchanges are particularly promising because they're much, much harder for the IRS to tax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Banking
Contrast this with local fiat like BerkShares (dollar based) or the German regional currencies (euro based) that are relatively easy to tax.
Time-based exchanges and bartering track pretty closely with how most communities used to operate prior to the 20th century for most goods and services.
"time-based exchanges" when done at a local, community level is what used to be referred to as "neighbourly" - people didn't keep track of hours between them, because they saw themselves as part of a whole. . .
that being said, to ween people off the "wealth is money" meme, it's good to begin with something such as this as you build up trust. . . an hour of "my" time is equal to an hour of "your" time, no one is "worth" more than an other. . .
(you can see the conflict inherent in those lines if "one" thinks they're "speshul" hmm. . .)
It's pretty obvious how effin hard commerce is using metal. No convenience, no "standard" value. No way to verify weight, chemistry etc.. This is a sideshow.
Wait until Sprott (and banks) start printing gold reserve notes. That's news.
Junk silver. Great for barter.
Time was when saloons in the West had jeweler's scales to weigh the gold dust that the miners offered in payment.
And of course, the whole purpose of coinage was to provide lumps of metal of known (or at least putative) weight.
Notice that anytime a story appears about citizens getting disgusted with the corrupt fiat FRN system taking individual measures, the USEFUL FRN IDIOTS crawl outta the woodwork with every tired-ass old argument, including the IRS crap.
Anyone interested in this? Funny How Cryptome starts attacking Assange just when new revelations are in the making. Like that whole expose on Intelligence agencies.
First defense of IDF murders now this. One has to wonder where the payoff is. Unless it comes from collecting information on those with radical thoughts.
There are camps which will need filling after all.
http://cryptome.org/0001/wikileaks-zero.htm
Dear Cryptome:
We at Zero Hedge have watched with interest (and some horror) the Wikievents of the last several weeks. Of particular notice to us recently has been the complete inability (or unwillingness) of Wikileaks to release any new material not related to the self-promotion of its ubiquitous figurehead "Julian Assange." Despite a massive budget, it would seem more than an order of magnitude larger than ours, the Wikileaks enterprise seems totally unable to do more than tweet pleas for patience while sending Mr. Assange to, e.g., Brussels to debate freedom of expression. Where are the millions of documents leakers risked to liberate? This is quite sad for us to see, as we were some of the earliest and most enthusiastic supporters of Wikileaks, as individuals as well as under the umbrella of "Zero Hedge."
We currently run and maintain our own servers for Zero Hedge and see in excess of 500,000 hits per day on normal days, with spikes to nearly a million if something interesting is going on. We've recently upgraded our infrastructure (multi-homed in some of the same jurisdictions Wikileaks uses, as it happens) to deal with our own growth. Consequently, we have quite a bit of spare capacity and bandwidth right now, as well as sufficient financial means to secure same for the foreseeable future. We are long time Cryptome readers, and fairly crypto and INFOSEC savvy (we even have an early member or two from the original cypherpunks list among our senior staff, though none connected with Wikileaks). We manage sensitive sources on a nearly daily basis.
We fight any number of frivolous takedown and legal challenges from well resourced institutions (investment banks, hedge funds, etc.) monthly. As individuals and an organization, we seek to avoid, rather than ravenously pursue, press of any kind. (We get enough headaches from the media without even trying, thank you very much). Moreover, while we are focused on finance, we are philosophically aligned with the ORIGINAL premise and mission of Wikileaks: The liberation of raw data. Our "manifesto" might give you an idea of the sorts of goals that drive us:
http://www.zerohedge.com/about
We have no doubt that directly contacting Mr. Assange would serve no real purpose, as it would seem control of even an inactive Wikileaks is something Assange would never willingly relinquish. Nor, given the allegations about the personal use of donor funds, would we be willing to associate ourselves with Mr. Assange until a full accounting were made. We seriously doubt this will ever come to pass. The figures currently claimed by the organization as needed funds are FAR in excess of what is even plausibly required for such a firm- given our experience running what is now a "Top 100" Technorati site (and consistently Top 1 or Top 2 in the Business category) for the last 18 months.
Unfortunately, it seems impossible to contact Wikileaks directly without passing an Assange filter first, so we have not bothered to offer our help directly to Wikileaks. We would, however, be quite interested in hearing from other members of the organization how we could help return Wikileaks to its roots. At the moment we aren't sure what form that might take. Clearing house for data? Secure submission node? Research and analysis? Managing sources and source material? Whatever the case, it is a huge pity to watch the continued squandering of Wikileaks, both as a concept and an execution. Perhaps, given your apparent status as an interim contact point for the Wikileaks rank-and-file, this note might be helpful.
Please feel free to post this material as you see fit under the header "An Open Letter to Wikileaks Insiders."
"Marla Singer"
co-founder
Zero Hedge
http://www.zerohedge.com
marla[at]zerohedge.com
I'd be surprised if this was genuine. For one, Marla writes better than that; and two, I'm not so sure she was a "co-founder". Seems like this was all Tyler's, starting back in the blogspot days.
Nice catch, GF. John Young has a constant stream of "leaks" none of which has ever resulted in anything in the scale of Wikileak's revelations about the Julius Bär Bank or the Collateral Murder video. He -and not Assange- looks more and more like a MIC cointelpro honey pot.
As for Marla's sympathy for the devil, it raises serious questions about Zerohedge's means, motives and editorial integrity.