Mike Krieger On Our Road To Serfdom

Tyler Durden's picture

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phaesed's picture

It's truly an exceptional book and happens to be the third book on economics I ever read. (behind Wealth of Nations and Essays on the Great Depression). Hayek was truly a great man, it's a shame that his "Pure Theory of Capital" isn't studied more closely by the vast majority of those who claim follow his ideals.

Chump's picture

I have to know: is your special brand of stupidity actually, physically painful?  If not, it definitely should be.

nmewn's picture

LOL + a gazzilion fiats.

Zina's picture

What are you all commenting about?

"Individualist censorship" made the original post disapear...

You really don't need the State to install censorship...

nmewn's picture

ZH is private property...they can do what they like in this regard...your "rights" end where theirs begin.

As it should be.

You should keep this simple fact in mind while on your quest for the socialistic utopia that lies just around the next bend on your road...someone else will be in control of your life as well as your words.


Zina's picture

The typical reaction of a histeric teabagger: everyone who don't says "amen" to his credo is blamed "a socialist", an "evil communist"...

I just have to laugh on the face of those hypocrites wich cry about the "danger to civil liberties" represented by any government intervention in the economy, but have no respect to any civil liberty when it's about people who desagree with their dogma.

The reality is that you all don't hate the government, you just hate taxes, you all just don't want to pay taxes. You want the police and the Judiciary to arrest and prosecute all that "islamic terrorists" and "illegal mexican aliens". You NEED the government, you NEED the State, you just don't want to pay any taxes to sustain it.

WaterWings's picture

De novo? Ainda bobagem.

Zina's picture

De fato, o que mais se lê nos comentários desse site é bobagem. Bobagem escrita por filhinho de mamãe que não quer pagar imposto, mas quer que a polícia esteja sempre a postos pra lhe proteger da bandidagem...

WaterWings's picture

Se temos "fractional reserve banking", porque precisamos pagar impostos? Eles podem imprimir tudo. E illusao. E nao tinhamos que pagar "income tax" antes de 1913. E esravidao.

velobabe's picture

your HOT when you talk like that, WW†

WaterWings's picture


Now I have something to think about for the weekend. Enjoy yours!

nmewn's picture

The taxes are to protect the weak from bandits my socialist friend...it doesn't work so well when the bandits collect the taxes from the poor and the middle class to split amongst themselves.

Socialism has unleashed the hounds, you'd better invest in a dog whistle...LOL.


Chump's picture

Man, it's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about or who you're talking to...

BTW, I fully support a central command economy and elite ruling political body...as long as I'm in charge, muthafucka.

phaesed's picture

lol.... I'll freely admit that I'm a socialist.... But then again I also believe the markets should be free and untampered with... something that will never happen in a falsely entitled "capitalist" society who's leaders are supported, molded, and placed into office by few individuals that control the vast majority of the wealth.


Q: When's a bribe not really a bribe?

A: When it's a political campaign contribution.


When the masses remain subject to the whims of a few individuals who are isolated from much of the misery that plagues us "little folk", there will never be freedom. We are all slaves to their influence... the shame is that most are perfectly happy being little worker drones.




ps... oh and by socialist I don't mean communist

nmewn's picture


"ps... oh and by socialist I don't mean communist"

A pregnant socialist always gives birth to a bouncing baby communist...and you can quote me on that ;-)

phaesed's picture



I'm glad to see everything is black and white for you.... thank god we have a two party system eh?

nmewn's picture

Got a rise out of a socialist government bond analyst...how...unexpected...LOL.

Yes a two party system has become a hinderance to true liberty...and yes everything is black and white with me on fiscal issues.

There is no grey in my mind that W came in as a social conservative and left as a conservative socialist...pronouncing "we're all Keynesian's now." The alternative was less appealing.

There is also no grey in my mind about what the public (the taxpaying public) are facing with this group from Chicago.

There is also no grey in my mind that the public at large is pissed off at being continually sodomized and asked to like it by those we place in positions of responsibilty.

Now, you may think this bodes well (politically) for socialism...I disagree...capital, real capital, earned capital, that is, after taxed earnings (property in my view) is moving to safety outside of paper markets.

You may think, as you do, being a "securities analyst", that the black hole of a central bank buying government (note, governments, not mine) debt obligations is some resplendent eureka moment of modern man banking brilliance, but it is an old story littering the landscape of history..Spain & Greece being the most recent examples.

But tell me, will a socialist government offer bread and bullets to fight against the nations creditors when they come-a-calling??? A mercenary army only fights until they tire of stale bread and shedding their blood. As noted above, a generous majority of the population did not like being fiscally brutalized, conscription orders from the top perhaps??? I would advise a limited amount of ammunition though.

Will they seize the means of production of the bread and bullets (insert appropriate martial music here) and force labor to produce for the government??? This seems like our bouncing baby doesn't it???

No, I believe I'll stand by my quote, and append to it...a socialist always gives birth to a bouncing baby communist or fascist.

Dark reflections to be sure...at other times we could no doubt share a ball game and a beer...but not right now. This is serious...and so am I.



MyFriendMises's picture

First big laugh of the day.  That is why I love this site.

Clayton Bigsby's picture

you have done well, my son - if I rip this off, you will be credited...

Miss Expectations's picture

I'll tell you this much, it is to me.  Unfortunately, I think it makes him feel good.  Yikes.

phaesed's picture

you mean the special brand of stupidity that caused me to buy TLT calls over the past 4 months?


Nahhh.... that's not painful until I wake up the morning after I spend some profits going out drinking.

*yawn* Sorry chump, my fight against the treasury shorts won despite being one of a handful of analysts out there who actually understand central banking mechanics.... you know, the stuff that people are too lazy to learn.

But my point was that Hayek often went against the "Austrian" theory propogated by Mises and as such he holds a very certain and special place in "Austrian" theory. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clever enough to dumb it down for ya chump.

Oh and one thing.... have you ever read both Prices and Production and The Pure Theory of Capital?

Compare the reasoning Hayek uses to Mises line of thought.... there are some very stark contrasts.

Chump's picture

Unfortunately, Zina's original post in which he blathered and drooled for approximately 5 whole sentences disappeared.  That was the post I replied to, certainly not yours.


phaesed's picture

ahhhh okay then, I'm sorry for the hostile/defensive tone then :)



Chump's picture

No apologies necessary.  In fact, I'm surprised you weren't more hostile.  Cheers back at ya.

nmewn's picture

I believe the homophobic phrase of "teabagger" may be a little over used by leftist elitist snobs driving around in their Volvo's...just as the the right over uses the example of a small minority of commie anarchist's who don bandana's and run around throwing rocks through windows to point out an end to civilization as we know it.

The "teabaggers" are not for an end to government...they are for restraining an out of control government led by those who are defined as oligarchs on ZH everyday. Are you saying Mike is a "teabagger", an anarchist or something in between???


Gully Foyle's picture


Show me the Teabagger manifesto. I think each group/section/cell whatever they term themselves, makes it up as the go along.

For example.


Horowitz the Flim Flam Man Among the Teabaggers


I had less fun than Voltaire and am not a philosopher but a certain curiosity found me at a dinner a few evenings ago held by the Albuquerque Tea Party featuring as guest speaker the right’s own aging billy goat, David Horowitz. Flim flam man, wannabe Borscht Belt entertainer and pint-sized demagogue, Horowitz held forth for two hours in a room at the Albuquerque Convention Center, thoroughly teabagging the credulous crowd of middle-aged and older white folks, ordinary Americans justifiably outraged at the mendacity, hypocrisy and sheer elitist arrogance of their own government, whether Republican or Democrat, and who, to their credit, are actively seeking avenues for a redress of grievances.

The gathering was overwhelmingly white—no African Americans and very few even moderately brown faces. Unusual was a tall young man who looked Central Asian, a Pakistani, or Indian, maybe, certainly not a Muslim. Horowitz expelled half his verbal gas hatefully excoriating the Muslim religion, which the crowd seemed to accept routinely and in some cases with vociferous approval. The vibe in the room when Horowitz talked about immigration and the “corrupt culture” of Mexico (“culture,” not “system,” or even “culture of corruption”) was palpably ugly. Our waiters and waitress were mostly brown skinned people who served us impassively. When Horowitz praised the “great governor of Arizona” the crowd cheered heartily.

I sat at a table with five others, all white, middle class, elderly, perfectly nice people. The guy on my left, Dan, was a retired electrical engineer from Sandia National Labs who moved to Albuquerque in 1953 when many of the city’s main streets were still unpaved. I tried engaging him but he was so tight-lipped that after a while I gave up. Maybe it was the years working in the labs. He was a lifelong Republican and not normally active politically but moved by the present situation to check out the Tea Party. The guy on my right, Tony, was a long time Albuquerque resident, originally from Corning, New York, home of Corning Glass Works, the folks who brought you Pyrex. Tony was an affable, remarkably fit guy for someone in his mid seventies, more interested in talking sports than politics. Next to him was his wife, Joan, demure and pleasant-looking, probably 20 years younger than Tony, the most outwardly political of the group. Her main concern was education and the leftists who control it, a big theme of Horowitz’s.

This was a pretty dull table and a pretty dull gathering but there were pockets of true believers scattered around the room, including one woman near me who intoned loud amens as Horowitz spoke and one large, powerful-voiced woman who, during the Q & A, vowed to defend the country from progressives. It takes a lot to get the older set worked up, which is one reason fear of the Tea Party is likely exaggerated. No flesh-rending Brown Shirt brigade this group, though younger, more passionate recruits remains a possibility.

At the end of the function I asked some questions of one of the event’s organizers, a pleasant middle-aged man a bit uptight in his responses, which he formulated carefully. One of the founders of the Albuquerque Tea Party (which, by the way, has one of Jasper Johns’ flag paintings as its website background, a curiosity), his main concerns were the wastes of taxation, which he sought to prove in a brief mental exercise taught by one of his economics professors, government intrusion on privacy (he disliked the Patriot Act, which he thought Obama would eliminate or at least weaken, alas) and the strengthening of the free enterprise system, which he felt was under unrelenting attack by progressives. When I asked him to define progressivism, he said it was the most dangerous of all movements, lumping socialism, statism, Nazism, fascism, FDR and Woodrow Wilson together in a toxic brew lapping at the shores of liberty. He was nervous throughout, asking at one point if I was recording his words. Only up here, I said, pointing to my head.

The main attraction though was Horowitz, the awareness and pleasure of which he barely concealed standing in front of the silver-haired rubes gazing in polite if not rapt attention. He is a man comfortable with his notoriety and reputation as one of the right’s leading intellectuals, especially in front of a crowd he obviously feels superior to. After all, this was Albuquerque. He hammered the Democratic Party relentlessly, a pathetically easy target, deservedly despised by sensible people for their mealy-mouthed hypocrisy. But for Horowitz the evil of the Democrats lies much deeper. Forget liberals, he said, waving his arms, these guys are communists. Communists! Collectivists whose dangerous messianic beliefs control academia, the media and even the Pentagon! Surely, I thought, as Horowitz carried on, the guy can’t be serious. Islam is the only religion, he railed, that makes martyrs out of mass murderers. The males go to heaven and consort with 34 Virginians. Virginians! Was he making a joke? Does he know something about Virginians that I don’t? Maybe.

Horowitz is a curious cat. A guy who was raised by communist parents and spent his youth involved in leftist causes who now goes at it with equal fervor from the other side. He is probably not a self-hating Jew, but he could be a self-hating communist. Nothing, certainly not facts, will deter him. Nidal Hasan killed 39 people at Fort Hood, he said. The number, still horrific, was 12. Maybe he was confusing him with Baruch Goldstein, but then, that was only 29. There was nothing in Palestine except “three strips of desert” and the scattered remnants of a dead Turkish empire when the state of Israel was created in 1948. “There were no Palestinians!” a woman in the audience shouted when he said this. “Amen!” said the woman at the table next to me.

Horowitz assured the audience repeatedly that he knew what was really going on with the communists because he’d been there and seen the light—a special envoy, as it were. He and a few others were “second thoughters.” He talked about the Manichaeism of the Democrat/communists and how they saw the world in dangerous, simplistic, religious terms. Earlier in his talk, to get things warmed up, he’d said the Democrats were the serpent in the Garden of Eden, wanting to be as gods. The audience loved this. His two great enemies are the Muslim world, determined to wipe Israel and the United States off the map, and the Democrat/communists, infiltrating every corner of American life. Horowitz seemed genuinely passionate about the communist stuff but he didn’t look as menacing as McCarthy. No firm numbers on the infiltration either, though liberal academia, another bête noire, is filled to the brim.

The Tea Party is not a dangerous or powerful movement but, as others have pointed out, prone to capture or influence by venomous oddballs like Horowitz with more clearly delineated right wing agendas. There is too much muddled thinking, lack of focus and old age to solidify into a strong independent movement. What likely will happen is that their angry, confused energy will be swallowed by an increasingly right wing Republican Party, the Patraeuses and Palins, resulting in a stronger, deadlier version of business as usual. The Teabaggers have at least one thing right: our present government is an enemy. But like any gusher without real direction, they’ll likely as not get swept away by a stronger, loopier current.

chumbawamba's picture

It's cheap shit like this that divides a people.  Why do you let yourself fall for this nonsense?

I like Counterpunch as they've published hard-hitting journalism that mainstream wouldn't touch with Dan Rather's dick, but they also leave a lot of chaff in with the wheat.  This is chaff.

If you took the minimal time to look into David Horowitz's background, you'd discover that he's a charlatan who opportunistically gloms on to whatever avant garde political movement is prevalent at any given time.  He was a leftist in the 1960s, running with the Black Panthers, then eventually turned "conservative" when the political winds blew him there, then a neocon when that became the flavor of the day, and now he's a apparently a so-called "teabagger".  He's also a raging zionist douche.


Quit making an ass of yourself.  This article is about transcending the false divide between "Democrats" and "Republicans", and yet you come here and try to keep the illusion of division alive and well.  Fie, you shit-eating monkey.

I am Chumbawamba.

DeltaDawn's picture

I read David Horowitz's autobiography. Wish Obama would think for himself and leave his red diaper baby belief system in the trash. I admire him greatly. Forming your opinion from a wikipedia entry, Chumba? Read his lengthy, well-written book and get back to me. Just because his ears are open to the "Death to Jews" message does not make him a raging zionist either.

Unscarred's picture


'Fie'?  Tell me that's a tipo.

Gully Foyle's picture


I think you should learn to read. I have posted before about how the Buchanons were sent in to destroy the Reform party. Others have posted the same regarding Palin and Teabaggers.

I think you are one of those kneejerk dogmatists who glory in attacking everyone else while disregarding the truth of their politics.



Ripped Chunk's picture

Newsvine is really your true calling Gully. Heed it's call

tony bonn's picture

david whorowitz is a cia asset/agent.....his conversion from radical liberal hippie to neocon was as fake as pamela sue anderson's boobs....he writes for cia front organization national review.....he is a complete whore....

WaterWings's picture

Thanks, Chumba. I saw that post and thought, "Hmm, I don't know if I want to read this...let's see what the peanut gallery has to say."

Chumba 4 Supreme Dictator!


Separately...Tyler! WTF! Why do we have disjointed/disappearing comment-scrubbing (?) bullshit going on up-thread!

nmewn's picture

Gosh...all these positive vibes from Volvo drivers protecting their "statist" quo interests...LOL.

What could possibly be keeping our sides apart??? ;-)

Treeplanter's picture

As usual, race is a big deal for leftists.  At the moment a lot of black people still have hope for Obama.  Based on his father's race, you betcha. However, there are quite a few black people among the most active Tea Partiers.  They don't buy the entitlement trap nor the affirmative action scam.  Teabagger is used not only as a demeaning insult but to divert attention from the Sons of Liberty's defiance of our British overlords in the most famous Tea Party of all.  Our source of inspiration. David Horowitz is no flim flam man.  He has experience and knowledge on his side.  He does get flustered in debates with idiots and too often his emotion erupts into exchanging insults instead of using his skills.  The best thing going for us is our Constitution.  A lot of our problems stem from ignoring it and misreading it.  Just staying true to its requirement that we use honest money would have been a huge help.  The decentralizing tenants of the 10th Amendment would have kept taxes and power closer to citizens rather than being concentrated in an imperial government in DC.  Anyway, Lord Obama has managed to create a huge bipartisan opposition to National Socialism.  And a nice spike in gun sales.  Credit where's it due.

AnAnonymous's picture

Made me laugh. The few black people amongst the most active Tea parties do not buy the entitlement trap nor the affirmative action scam.

Just for that, they should get their asses kicked out of any movement dedicated to convey actual knowledge.

How does it come that as US citizens they are not aware that racism has worked very well? And what best that racism as an entitlement and affirmative action program?

These guys dont know their US history for sure.

pan-the-ist's picture

How dare you show up on my plantation and take my slaves?  I own them.  People have no respect for private property...

Ripped Chunk's picture

You miss the good old days pan, don't you?

Mercury's picture

From what I understand of the mechanics of it all "teabagging" isn't necessarily a homosexual act.  And personally I see no shame in being phobic or at least apprehensive about being on the business end of something like that.

Chump's picture

HAHAHA.  Wait, which is the business end??  Wait, don't answer that!

Conrad Murray's picture

I never understood the media's fascination with attempting to use that term as derogatory.  I'm quite sure all of the "teabaggers" laugh their asses off at the "teabagees".

Clayton Bigsby's picture

I'd rather be a "teabagger" and a "teabaggee" - I know it's a personal preference, but I'm just sayin...

mojine's picture

Don't bother asking Zina what She/He/It is saying.

I've never seen a coherent thought emanate from that troll.

Zina's picture

Is the world coherent?

Is reality coherent?

I'm just a nihilist

Zina's picture

"The teabaggers are not for an end to government..."


So the BIG problem is: government for WHO? Government doing what? Defending what interests?