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Mike Krieger On Our Road To Serfdom

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The Road To Serfdom, By Mike Krieger of KAM LP


As is true with respect to other great evils, the measures by which war might be made altogether impossible for the future may well be worse than even war itself.
- F.A. Hayek in The Road to Serfdom

Those who preach a “New Order” which is no more than a projection of the tendencies of the last forty years, and who can think of nothing better than to imitate Hitler.  It is, indeed, those who cry loudest for the New Order who are most completely under the sway of the ideas which have created this war and most of the evils from which we suffer.

- F.A. Hayek in The Road to Serfdom

I recently finished reading F.A. Hayek’s classic work The Road to Serfdom and quite frankly I was completely blown away.  Its author is one of the greats in Austrian economic thought and he won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1974.  The Road to Serfdom was first published in Britain in 1944 and in the United States the following year.  I found the book to hold such significant lessons about the dangers of concentrated political and economic organization that I was compelled to write down many of my favorite quotes and passages in the email below.  Where I have found the need to comment I have added “my two cents.”  I suggest everyone on this list buy this book and read it if you have not already and to reread it if you had in the past.  It’s almost scary how he seems to be describing many of the exact same things that are happening today.  I guess that is because as much as things change, human nature never really does.  So we create the same disasters over and over. 

I am about to head out on the road (not to serfdom hope!) and before I do I want to issue a rallying cry to everyone that craves freedom both politically and economically.  We must all at once stop identifying ourselves as Democrats and Republicans.  The elites use these definitions as part of a divide and conquer strategy.  In any event, Bush and Obama seem pretty similar to me anyway.  Two thugs.  We must get back to our roots and what made this country great.  The enemy is not someone from a different political party or a “capitalist” or a “socialist.”  The enemy is collectivist thought imposed on humanity from the top down.  Top down collectivist thought has taken on many forms whether it is Communism or Fascism but in the end what happens is a small ruling elite run the lives of 99% of the population.  Those that resist are killed or imprisoned.  I certainly do not think I have all the answers.  What I do know is that freedom loving people the world over must shed their prior false political identities and together agree on certain key principles.  There is a battle going on between a small highly organized group that wants a collectivist top down structure of world government and they are rushing to put these plans into action.  This is not conspiracy theory it’s very obvious if you open your eyes.  Get your money into real assets and get prepared so that you are not destitute when it comes time to stand up and rebuild.  We can make this world a better place but it’s not going to be easy.  I will be in touch.    

The Road to Serfdom:  Favorite Passages and Quotes

What in the future will probably appear the most significant and far-reaching effect of this success is the new sense of power over their own fate, the belief in the unbounded possibilities if improving their own lot, which the success already achieved created among men.  With the success grew ambition – and man had every right to be ambitious.  What had been an inspiring promise seemed no longer enough, the rate of progress far too slow; and the principles which had made this progress possible in the past came to be regarded more as obstacles to speedier progress, impatiently to be brushed away, than as the conditions for the preservation and development of what had already been achieved.
- Chapter One “The Abandoned Road”

My Two Cents: Basically as mankind advanced and become more free and standards of living advanced, a trend toward idealist and impossible to achieve utopian concepts became increasingly prevalent and the attempts to implement these have actually cause immense suffering and in the process many forgot the actual methods by which the prior progress had actually been achieved.  I think this is a great parallel to the modern United States where we have forgotten the roots of that which made this country great.  An attempts to rediscover those roots is burgeoning with the current Constitutional movement, which I fully endorse.

The complete collapse of the belief in the attainability of freedom and equality through Marxism has forced Russia to travel the same road toward a totalitarian, purely negative, non-economic society of unfreedom and inequality which Germany has been following.  Not that communism and fascism are essentially the same.  Fascism is the stage reached after communism has proven an illusion, and it has proved as much an illusion in Stalinist Russia as in pre-Hitler Germany.
- Quote by Peter Drucker used by Hayek in Chapter Two “The Great Utopia”

Many people, on the other hand, who value the ultimate ends of socialism no less than the socialists refuse to support socialism because of the dangers to other values they see in the methods proposed by the socialists. 
- Chapter Three “Individualism and Collectivism”

Or, to express it differently, planning and competition can be combined only by planning for competition but not by planning against competition.
- Chapter Three “Individualism and Collectivism”

My Two Cents: Planning an entire economy doesn’t work!  Look at the mess China is in.  Believe me, they have a major mess on their hands and if they don’t either appreciate the yuan or back their currency by gold soon I expect a total collapse there.

It should be noted that, moreover, that monopoly is frequently the product of factors other than the lower costs of greater size.  It is attained through collusive agreement and promoted by public policies.
- Chapter Four “The ‘Inevitability’ of Planning”

My Two Cents: Can you say the modern U.S. corrupt and rigged economy.

While there is nothing in modern technological developments which forces us toward comprehensive economic planning, there is a great deal in them which makes infinitely more dangerous the power a planning authority would possess. 
- Chapter Four “The ‘Inevitability’ of Planning”

My Two Cents: And this was written in Hayek’s time.  We must be more vigilant than ever to protect against an authoritarian government since the technology available to them to enforce tyranny is beyond nightmarish.  Why anyone has any trust in the Federal government of virtually any nation to do the right thing is beyond me.
From the saintly and single-minded idealist to the fanatic is often but a step.
- Chapter Four “The ‘Inevitability’ of Planning”

That in a planned system we cannot confine collective action to the tasks on which we can agree but are forced to produce agreement on everything in order that any action can be taken at all, is one of the features which contributes more than most to determining the character of a planned system…It is important clearly to see the causes of this admitted ineffectiveness of parliaments when it comes to a detailed administration of the economic affairs of a nation.  The fault is neither with the individual representatives nor with the parliamentary institutions as such but with the contradictions inherent in the task with which they are charged.
- Chapter Five “Planning and Democracy”

Yet agreement that planning is necessary, together with the inability of democratic assemblies to produce a plan, will evoke stronger and stronger demands that the government or some single individual should be given power to act on their own responsibility…Hitler did not have to destroy democracy; he merely took advantage of the decay of democracy and at the critical moment obtained the support of many to whom, though they detested Hitler, he seemed the only man strong enough to get things done.
- Chapter Five “Planning and Democracy”

My Two Cents: As if dealing with the current inept and corrupt administration is not bad enough.  What we get in the backlash to this administration could be worse.  We must all agree on the Constitution so that we do not put in a demagogue after Obama or in a “crisis” that makes us afraid.

It may well be true that our generation talks and thinks too much of democracy and too little of the values which it serves…Democracy is essentially a means, a utilitarian device for safeguarding internal peace and individual freedom…and it is at least conceivable that under the government of a very homogenous and doctrinaire majority democratic government might be as oppressive as the worst dictatorship…The fashionable concentration on democracy as the main value threatened is not without danger.  It is largely responsible for the misleading and unfounded belief that, so long as the ultimate power is the will of the majority, the power cannot be arbitrary.  The false assurance which many people derive from this belief is an important cause of the general unawareness of the dangers which we face…Democratic control may prevent power from becoming arbitrary, but it does not do so by its mere existence.  If democracy resolves on a task which necessarily involves the use of power which cannot be guided by fixed rules, it must become arbitrary power.
- Chapter Five “Planning and Democracy”

My Two Cents: So prescient.  Don’t fall for the propaganda that because we are in a “democracy” all is ok.  Just look at how the Congress rams through extremely unpopular bills and refuses to pass a real Audit the Fed bill when 80% of the population wants it.  America was founded as a REPUBLIC.  There is a difference.  Look it up.

The more the state plans, the more difficult planning becomes for the individual.
- Chapter Six “Planning and the Rule of Law”

It is the Rule of Law, in the sense of the rule of formal law, the absence of legal privileges of particular people designated by authority, which safeguards that equality before the law which is the opposite of arbitrary government…To produce the same result for different people, it is necessary to treat them differently.
- Chapter Six “Planning and the Rule of Law”

My Two Cents:  There is no rule of law in America.  Obama basically suspended it during the financial crisis.  Remember, rights and the rule of law are always removed by autocratic leadership in a crisis.  Think 9/11 and the financial crisis. 

It may well be that Hitler has obtained his unlimited powers in a strictly constitutional manner and that whatever he does is therefore legal in the juridical sense.  But who would suggest for that reason that the Rule of Law still prevails in Germany?
- Chapter Six “Planning and the Rule of Law”

Nothing would at first seem to affect private life less than a state control of the dealings in foreign exchange, and most people will regard its introduction with complete indifference.  Yet the experience of most Continental countries has taught thoughtful people to regard this step as the decisive advance on the path to totalitarianism and the suppression of individual liberty.
- Chapter Seven “Economic Control and Totalitarianism”

My Two Cents: This is HUGELY important.  Once the FX controls really kick in you will know deep trouble lies ahead.  I expect this within 1-2 years at the latest.

The reader may take it that whoever talks about potential plenty is either dishonest or does not know what he is talking about.
- Chapter Seven “Economic Control and Totalitarianism”

My Two Cents: Potential plenty is a myth used by collectivists since the beginning to market their ideas to a naive public.  It is still used today.  It’s a sham.

To believe that the power which is thus conferred on the state is merely transferred to it from others is erroneous.  It is a power which is newly created and which in a competitive society nobody possesses. 
- Chapter Eight “Who, Whom?”

My Two Cents: Decentralized power is always inherently less dangerous than centralized power.  Nothing is more dangerous than a “global centralized power.”  This is the direction the elite and oligarchs are attempting to take us in to create a neo-feudalism with them and their progeny as the aristocracy.

It is not rational conviction but the acceptance of a creed which is required to justify a particular plan.  And, indeed, socialists everywhere were the first to recognize that the task they had set themselves required the general acceptance of a common Weltanschauung, of a definite set of values.
- Chapter Eight “Who, Whom?”

There is a great deal of truth in the often heard statement that fascism and National Socialism are a sort of middle-class socialism –only that in Italy and Germany the supporters of these new movements were economically hardly a middle class any longer.  It was to a large extent a revolt of a new underprivileged class against the labor aristocracy which the industrial labor movement had created…They were quite ready to take over the methods of the older socialism but intended to employ them in the service of a different class. 
- Chapter Eight “Who, Whom?”

In a society used to freedom it is unlikely that many people would be ready deliberately to purchase security at this price.  But the policies which are now followed everywhere, which hand out the privilege of security, now to this group and now to that, are nevertheless rapidly creating conditions in which the striving for security tends to become stronger than the love of freedom.  The reason for this is that with every grant of complete security to one group the insecurity of the rest necessarily increases.  If you guarantee to some a fixed part of a variable cake, the share left to the rest is bound to fluctuate proportionately more than the size of the whole.  And the essential element of security which the competitive system offers, the great variety of opportunities, is more and more reduced. 
- Chapter Nine “Security and Freedom”

My Two Cents: This is the real reason the welfare state is so dangerous.  It ultimately collapses and then in the chaos and vacuum that follows freedom is often sacrificed.  We must never allow this in the United States.

Just as the democratic statesman who sets out to plan economic life will soon be confronted with the alternative of either assuming dictatorial powers or abandoning his plans, so the totalitarian dictator would soon have to choose between disregard for ordinary morals and failure.  It is for this reason that the unscrupulous and uninhibited are likely to be more successful in a society tending toward totalitarianism.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

My Two Cents:  Look at how we reward failure.  The Treasury Secretary couldn’t pay his taxes.  What a clown he is and what a clown Obama is for keeping this clown around.

He will be able to obtain the support of all the docile and gullible, who have no strong convictions if their own but are prepared to accept a ready-made system of values if it is only drummed into their ears sufficiently loudly and frequently.  It will be those whose vague and imperfectly formed ideas are easily swayed and whose passions and emotions are readily aroused who will thus swell the ranks of the totalitarian party.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

My Two Cents: We must all work as hard as possible to inform the largest number of people as possible ahead of the collapse so that some when we rebuild the demagogues do not come out on top in the battle of ideas.

Collectivism on a world scale seems to be unthinkable –except in the service of a small ruling elite.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

My Two Cents: G20, Bilderberg Group.  Any secretive group of elites must be examined much more closely by the populace.  Time to grow up.    

To split or decentralize power is necessarily to reduce the absolute amount of power, and the competitive system is the only system designed to minimize by decentralization the power exercised by man over man.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

The principle that the end justifies the means is in individualist ethics regarded as the denial of all morals.  In collectivist ethics it becomes necessarily the supreme rule; there is literally nothing which the consistent collectivist must not be prepared to do if it serves “the good of the whole” because to him the “good of the whole” is to him the only criterion of what ought to be done…There is always in the eyes of the collectivist a greater goal which these acts serve and which to him justifies them because the pursuit of the common end of society can know no limits in any rights or values of any individual.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

The moral consequences of totalitarian propaganda which we must now consider are, however, of an even more profound kind.  They are destructive of all moral because they undermine one of the foundations of all morals; the sense of and respect for truth.
- Chapter Eleven “The End of Truth”

My Two Cents: If you haven’t noticed the mainstream media is full of lies and trite stories.  The government is the most consistent liar I have ever encountered.

It is not difficult to deprive the great majority of independent thought.  But the minority who will retain an inclination to criticize must also be silenced.  We have already seen why coercion cannot be confined to the acceptance of the ethical code underlying the plan according to which all social activity is directed.  Since many parts of this code will never be explicitly stated, since many part of the guiding scale of values will exist only implicitly by the plan, the plan itself in every detail, in fact every act of the government, must become sacrosanct and exempt from criticism. 
- Chapter Eleven “The End of Truth”

In particular, they all (totalitarian systems) seem to have in common an intense dislike of the more abstract forms of thought –a dislike characteristically also shown by many of the collectivists among out scientists.
- Chapter Eleven “The End of Truth”

In any society freedom of thought will probably be of direct significance only for a small minority.  But this does not mean that anyone is competent, or ought to have power, to select those to whom this freedom is to be reserved…The tragedy of collectivist thought is that, while it starts out to make reason supreme, it ends by destroying reason because it misconceives the process on which the growth of reason depends. 
- Chapter Eleven “The End of Truth”

Still less was the cause (of the rise of National Socialism in Germany), as so many people wish to believe, a capitalist reaction against the advance of socialism.  On the contrary, the support which brought these ideas to power came precisely form the socialist camp.  It was certainly not through the bourgeoisie, but rather through the absence of a strong bourgeoisie, that they were helped to power.
- Chapter Eleven “The Socialist Roots of Nazism”

My Two Cents: There is nothing more dangerous than a society where a vibrant middle class is destroyed.  This is happening in America right now and is far and away the most concerning thing I see.  Obama’s polices, intentionally or unintentionally are consolidating power and wealth into a small elite of government officials and corporate oligarchs that want to run your life.

“Conservative Socialism” (and, in other circles, “Religious Socialism”) was the slogan under which a large number of writers prepared the atmosphere in which “National Socialism” succeeded. 
- Chapter Eleven “The Socialist Roots of Nazism”

My Two Cents: George W’s “Compassionate Conservatism” comes to mind.  There was nothing compassionate or conservative about it.  That administration ran America like a bunch of thugs using the “war on terror” as a cover.  Unfortunately, Obama is doing the same thing.

In past ages intellectuals engaged in a disinterested search for universal truths; they searched for ideals that transcended the need of the state or society in which they lived.  In recent times, however, intellectuals have become more and more the handmaiden of political and national causes.  As a result of this betrayal of the intellectuals, extremist political passions had recently become more universal, coherent, continuous, and preponderant. 
- Quote by Julien Benda from her book La Trahison des Clercs used by Hayek in Chapter Twelve “The Totalitarians in our Midst”

My Two Cents: This is a total tragedy and has clearly accelerated in modern times.

The impetus of the movement toward totalitarianism comes mainly from the two great vested interests: organized capital and organized labor.  Probably the greatest menace of all is the fact that the policies these two most powerful groups point in the same direction.
- Chapter Twelve “The Totalitarians in our Midst”

My Two Cents: Obvious parallel to today. Look who has benefited the most under Obama.  The elite use a divide and conquer strategy to keep the serfs bickering on issues away from the big picture.  The truth of the matter is much of big business (especially the large banks) and big unions are so corrupt they are both the enemy of the middle class.  We must step out of the left-right paradigm and see who is really screwing us!

The movement is, of course, deliberately planned mainly by the capitalist organizers of monopolies, and they are thus one of the main sources of this danger.  Their responsibility is not altered by the fact that their aim is not a totalitarian system but rather a sort of corporative society in which the organized industries would appear as semi-independent and self-governing “estates…”But while the entrepreneurs may well see their expectations borne out during a transition stage, it will not be long before they will find, as their German colleagues did, that they are no longer masters but will in every respect have to be satisfied with whatever power and emoluments the government will concede them.
- Chapter Twelve “The Totalitarians in our Midst”

My Two Cents: The big banks and many of our corporate leaders (Warren Buffett in particular comes to mind.  He is such a good actor he should win an Oscar) sold us out to “team up” with a corrupt government in the aftermath of the financial crisis.  They think they will be “winners” with the government.  I have my doubts.  When this thing collapses and the administration needs a scapegoat they will go down and in an epic fashion.

But if the place of the opposition, in public discussion as well as in Parliament, should become lastingly the monopoly of a second reactionary party, there would, indeed, be no hope left.
- Chapter Twelve “The Totalitarians in our Midst”

My Two Cents: This is precisely what we have today with the Republican and Democratic fake choice system.  We are offered coke or pepsi.  We must stand up and say neither.  We want the Constitution. 

Though it is natural that, as the world around us becomes more complex, our resistance grows against the forces which, without our understanding them, constantly interfere with individual hopes and plans, it is just in these circumstances that it becomes less and less possible for anyone to fully understand these forces…But they are mistaken when they carry the comparison further to argue that we must learn to master the forces of society in the same manner in which we have learned to master the forces of nature,  This is not only the path to totalitarianism but the path to the destruction of our civilization and a certain way to block further progress.  Those who demand it show by their very demands that they have not yet comprehended the extent to which the mere preservation of what we have so far achieved depends on the coordination of individual efforts by impersonal forces.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

We must now return to the crucial point –that individual freedom cannot be reconciled with the supremacy of one single purpose to which the whole society must be entirely and permanently subordinated.  The only exception to the rule that a free society must not be subjugated to a single purpose is war and other temporary disasters when subordination of almost everything to the immediate and pressing need is the price at which we preserve our freedom in the long run.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

My Two Cents: His observation about war is extremely important.  Our leaders understand this.  This is why we have been sold a never-ending “war on terror.”  That way you can always be reminded we are at war so you have to give up this right and that right because someone went on a plane with a firecracker in his underwear.  If someone wants to blow something up they will find a way.  We can’t let fear take us over so much that the government can just poke and prod us like animals everywhere we go.  Freedom in the number one priority in my opinion. 

As the glib phase runs, it must be accomplished “at any price.”  It is, in fact, in this field (the reduction of unemployment) that the fascination of vague but popular phrases like “full employment” may well lead to extremely shortsighted measures, and where the categorical and irresponsible “it must be done at all cost” of the single-minded idealist is likely to do the greatest harm.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

My Two Cents: Amazing that he used these exact phrases that you now hear so often from the administration and its minions.  These phrases are not new and we must understand that as well as the dangers those that use them pose to us.

It should never be forgotten that the one decisive factor in the rise of totalitarianism on the Continent, which is yet absent in England and America, is the existence of a large recently dispossessed middle class.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

Outside the sphere of individual responsibility there is neither goodness nor badness, neither opportunity for moral merit nor the chance of proving one’s desires to what one thinks right…A movement whose main promise is the relief from responsibility cannot but be anti-moral in its effect, however lofty the ideals to which it owes its birth.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

My Two Cents: Morals only exists with the freedom to make such choices. If the government imposes morals and makes the whole of humanity acts in a way the rulers deem “moral” there are no morals and the concept is dead.

It is one of the most fatal illusions that, by substituting negotiations between states or organized groups for competition for markets or for raw materials, international friction would be reduced.  This would merely put a contest of force in the place of what can only metaphorically be called the “struggle” of competition and would transfer to powerful and armed states, subject to no superior law, the rivalries which between individuals had to be decided without recourse to force.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents: Such an amazing quote.  This is precisely why we face a major war right now.  Too much power is concentrated at the top and when the elites of one nation sell out the elites of another nation which always happens at times like this, they start a war.  The elites don’t suffer the people do.  Let’s not let them do this to us.

But one has only to visualize the problems raised by economic planning of even an area such as western Europe to see that the moral bases for such an undertaking are completely lacking.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents: Western Europe would have been difficult enough!  I can’t help but think of the Euro.  What an absurd concept it was.  Be aware that the elite would like to use this crisis to bring in a global currency managed by a global central bank.  You thought the euro was bad.  This is would be the end of all economic and individual freedom on a global scale.  SDRs are just another fiat scam joke.  We must never ever agree to it.

If most people are not willing to see the difficulty, this is mainly because, consciously or unconsciously, they assume that it will be they who will settle these questions for others, and because they are convinced of their own capacity to do this justly and equitably.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents: The most dangerous people are those that think they “know best.”  This attitude is the DNA of dictators.

Planning on an international scale, even more than is true on a national scale, cannot be anything but a naked rule of force, an imposition by a small group on all the rest of that sort of standard and employment which the planners think suitable for the rest.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

What these dangerous idealists do not see is that where the assumption of a moral responsibility involves that one’s moral views should by force be made to prevail over those dominant in other communities, the assumption of such responsibility may place one in a position in which it becomes impossible to act morally. 
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents:  This is the ultimate contradiction of the idealistic planners.  Their good intentions end up creating the highest of degrees of human suffering.

It is significant that the most passionate advocates of a centrally directed economic New Order for Europe should display, like their Fabian and German prototypes, the most complete disregard for of the individuality and of the rights of small nations.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents: Any leader that talks of a “New Order” must be seen as potentially very dangerous.  It was used by Hitler and others often back in Hayek’s days.

We shall all be gainers if we can create a world fit for small states to live in.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

Neither an omnipotent superstate nor a loose association of “free nations” but a community of free men must be our goal.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

Have a great long weekend,


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Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:18 | 378784 phaesed
phaesed's picture

It's truly an exceptional book and happens to be the third book on economics I ever read. (behind Wealth of Nations and Essays on the Great Depression). Hayek was truly a great man, it's a shame that his "Pure Theory of Capital" isn't studied more closely by the vast majority of those who claim follow his ideals.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:48 | 378837 Chump
Chump's picture

I have to know: is your special brand of stupidity actually, physically painful?  If not, it definitely should be.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:50 | 378843 nmewn
nmewn's picture

LOL + a gazzilion fiats.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:10 | 379067 Zina
Zina's picture

What are you all commenting about?

"Individualist censorship" made the original post disapear...

You really don't need the State to install censorship...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:30 | 379271 nmewn
nmewn's picture

ZH is private property...they can do what they like in this regard...your "rights" end where theirs begin.

As it should be.

You should keep this simple fact in mind while on your quest for the socialistic utopia that lies just around the next bend on your road...someone else will be in control of your life as well as your words.


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 13:47 | 379443 Zina
Zina's picture

The typical reaction of a histeric teabagger: everyone who don't says "amen" to his credo is blamed "a socialist", an "evil communist"...

I just have to laugh on the face of those hypocrites wich cry about the "danger to civil liberties" represented by any government intervention in the economy, but have no respect to any civil liberty when it's about people who desagree with their dogma.

The reality is that you all don't hate the government, you just hate taxes, you all just don't want to pay taxes. You want the police and the Judiciary to arrest and prosecute all that "islamic terrorists" and "illegal mexican aliens". You NEED the government, you NEED the State, you just don't want to pay any taxes to sustain it.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 13:49 | 379473 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

De novo? Ainda bobagem.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 13:52 | 379487 Zina
Zina's picture

De fato, o que mais se lê nos comentários desse site é bobagem. Bobagem escrita por filhinho de mamãe que não quer pagar imposto, mas quer que a polícia esteja sempre a postos pra lhe proteger da bandidagem...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:41 | 379823 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Se temos "fractional reserve banking", porque precisamos pagar impostos? Eles podem imprimir tudo. E illusao. E nao tinhamos que pagar "income tax" antes de 1913. E esravidao.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 17:29 | 380096 velobabe
velobabe's picture

your HOT when you talk like that, WW†

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 18:02 | 380163 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture


Now I have something to think about for the weekend. Enjoy yours!

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 16:21 | 379928 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The taxes are to protect the weak from bandits my socialist doesn't work so well when the bandits collect the taxes from the poor and the middle class to split amongst themselves.

Socialism has unleashed the hounds, you'd better invest in a dog whistle...LOL.


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 14:01 | 379531 Chump
Chump's picture

Man, it's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about or who you're talking to...

BTW, I fully support a central command economy and elite ruling political long as I'm in charge, muthafucka.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:56 | 379838 phaesed
phaesed's picture

lol.... I'll freely admit that I'm a socialist.... But then again I also believe the markets should be free and untampered with... something that will never happen in a falsely entitled "capitalist" society who's leaders are supported, molded, and placed into office by few individuals that control the vast majority of the wealth.


Q: When's a bribe not really a bribe?

A: When it's a political campaign contribution.


When the masses remain subject to the whims of a few individuals who are isolated from much of the misery that plagues us "little folk", there will never be freedom. We are all slaves to their influence... the shame is that most are perfectly happy being little worker drones.




ps... oh and by socialist I don't mean communist

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 16:31 | 379953 nmewn
nmewn's picture


"ps... oh and by socialist I don't mean communist"

A pregnant socialist always gives birth to a bouncing baby communist...and you can quote me on that ;-)

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 18:33 | 380215 phaesed
phaesed's picture



I'm glad to see everything is black and white for you.... thank god we have a two party system eh?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 20:47 | 380427 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Got a rise out of a socialist government bond

Yes a two party system has become a hinderance to true liberty...and yes everything is black and white with me on fiscal issues.

There is no grey in my mind that W came in as a social conservative and left as a conservative socialist...pronouncing "we're all Keynesian's now." The alternative was less appealing.

There is also no grey in my mind about what the public (the taxpaying public) are facing with this group from Chicago.

There is also no grey in my mind that the public at large is pissed off at being continually sodomized and asked to like it by those we place in positions of responsibilty.

Now, you may think this bodes well (politically) for socialism...I, real capital, earned capital, that is, after taxed earnings (property in my view) is moving to safety outside of paper markets.

You may think, as you do, being a "securities analyst", that the black hole of a central bank buying government (note, governments, not mine) debt obligations is some resplendent eureka moment of modern man banking brilliance, but it is an old story littering the landscape of history..Spain & Greece being the most recent examples.

But tell me, will a socialist government offer bread and bullets to fight against the nations creditors when they come-a-calling??? A mercenary army only fights until they tire of stale bread and shedding their blood. As noted above, a generous majority of the population did not like being fiscally brutalized, conscription orders from the top perhaps??? I would advise a limited amount of ammunition though.

Will they seize the means of production of the bread and bullets (insert appropriate martial music here) and force labor to produce for the government??? This seems like our bouncing baby doesn't it???

No, I believe I'll stand by my quote, and append to it...a socialist always gives birth to a bouncing baby communist or fascist.

Dark reflections to be other times we could no doubt share a ball game and a beer...but not right now. This is serious...and so am I.



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:54 | 378851 MyFriendMises
MyFriendMises's picture

First big laugh of the day.  That is why I love this site.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:54 | 378852 Missing_Link
Missing_Link's picture


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:23 | 378919 Clayton Bigsby
Clayton Bigsby's picture

you have done well, my son - if I rip this off, you will be credited...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:51 | 379004 Miss Expectations
Miss Expectations's picture

I'll tell you this much, it is to me.  Unfortunately, I think it makes him feel good.  Yikes.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:55 | 379173 phaesed
phaesed's picture

you mean the special brand of stupidity that caused me to buy TLT calls over the past 4 months?


Nahhh.... that's not painful until I wake up the morning after I spend some profits going out drinking.

*yawn* Sorry chump, my fight against the treasury shorts won despite being one of a handful of analysts out there who actually understand central banking mechanics.... you know, the stuff that people are too lazy to learn.

But my point was that Hayek often went against the "Austrian" theory propogated by Mises and as such he holds a very certain and special place in "Austrian" theory. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clever enough to dumb it down for ya chump.

Oh and one thing.... have you ever read both Prices and Production and The Pure Theory of Capital?

Compare the reasoning Hayek uses to Mises line of thought.... there are some very stark contrasts.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:50 | 379239 Chump
Chump's picture

Unfortunately, Zina's original post in which he blathered and drooled for approximately 5 whole sentences disappeared.  That was the post I replied to, certainly not yours.


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:38 | 379813 phaesed
phaesed's picture

ahhhh okay then, I'm sorry for the hostile/defensive tone then :)



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 16:54 | 380015 Chump
Chump's picture

No apologies necessary.  In fact, I'm surprised you weren't more hostile.  Cheers back at ya.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:09 | 379223 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:49 | 378840 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I believe the homophobic phrase of "teabagger" may be a little over used by leftist elitist snobs driving around in their Volvo's...just as the the right over uses the example of a small minority of commie anarchist's who don bandana's and run around throwing rocks through windows to point out an end to civilization as we know it.

The "teabaggers" are not for an end to government...they are for restraining an out of control government led by those who are defined as oligarchs on ZH everyday. Are you saying Mike is a "teabagger", an anarchist or something in between???


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:55 | 378854 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Show me the Teabagger manifesto. I think each group/section/cell whatever they term themselves, makes it up as the go along.

For example.

Horowitz the Flim Flam Man Among the Teabaggers


I had less fun than Voltaire and am not a philosopher but a certain curiosity found me at a dinner a few evenings ago held by the Albuquerque Tea Party featuring as guest speaker the right’s own aging billy goat, David Horowitz. Flim flam man, wannabe Borscht Belt entertainer and pint-sized demagogue, Horowitz held forth for two hours in a room at the Albuquerque Convention Center, thoroughly teabagging the credulous crowd of middle-aged and older white folks, ordinary Americans justifiably outraged at the mendacity, hypocrisy and sheer elitist arrogance of their own government, whether Republican or Democrat, and who, to their credit, are actively seeking avenues for a redress of grievances.

The gathering was overwhelmingly white—no African Americans and very few even moderately brown faces. Unusual was a tall young man who looked Central Asian, a Pakistani, or Indian, maybe, certainly not a Muslim. Horowitz expelled half his verbal gas hatefully excoriating the Muslim religion, which the crowd seemed to accept routinely and in some cases with vociferous approval. The vibe in the room when Horowitz talked about immigration and the “corrupt culture” of Mexico (“culture,” not “system,” or even “culture of corruption”) was palpably ugly. Our waiters and waitress were mostly brown skinned people who served us impassively. When Horowitz praised the “great governor of Arizona” the crowd cheered heartily.

I sat at a table with five others, all white, middle class, elderly, perfectly nice people. The guy on my left, Dan, was a retired electrical engineer from Sandia National Labs who moved to Albuquerque in 1953 when many of the city’s main streets were still unpaved. I tried engaging him but he was so tight-lipped that after a while I gave up. Maybe it was the years working in the labs. He was a lifelong Republican and not normally active politically but moved by the present situation to check out the Tea Party. The guy on my right, Tony, was a long time Albuquerque resident, originally from Corning, New York, home of Corning Glass Works, the folks who brought you Pyrex. Tony was an affable, remarkably fit guy for someone in his mid seventies, more interested in talking sports than politics. Next to him was his wife, Joan, demure and pleasant-looking, probably 20 years younger than Tony, the most outwardly political of the group. Her main concern was education and the leftists who control it, a big theme of Horowitz’s.

This was a pretty dull table and a pretty dull gathering but there were pockets of true believers scattered around the room, including one woman near me who intoned loud amens as Horowitz spoke and one large, powerful-voiced woman who, during the Q & A, vowed to defend the country from progressives. It takes a lot to get the older set worked up, which is one reason fear of the Tea Party is likely exaggerated. No flesh-rending Brown Shirt brigade this group, though younger, more passionate recruits remains a possibility.

At the end of the function I asked some questions of one of the event’s organizers, a pleasant middle-aged man a bit uptight in his responses, which he formulated carefully. One of the founders of the Albuquerque Tea Party (which, by the way, has one of Jasper Johns’ flag paintings as its website background, a curiosity), his main concerns were the wastes of taxation, which he sought to prove in a brief mental exercise taught by one of his economics professors, government intrusion on privacy (he disliked the Patriot Act, which he thought Obama would eliminate or at least weaken, alas) and the strengthening of the free enterprise system, which he felt was under unrelenting attack by progressives. When I asked him to define progressivism, he said it was the most dangerous of all movements, lumping socialism, statism, Nazism, fascism, FDR and Woodrow Wilson together in a toxic brew lapping at the shores of liberty. He was nervous throughout, asking at one point if I was recording his words. Only up here, I said, pointing to my head.

The main attraction though was Horowitz, the awareness and pleasure of which he barely concealed standing in front of the silver-haired rubes gazing in polite if not rapt attention. He is a man comfortable with his notoriety and reputation as one of the right’s leading intellectuals, especially in front of a crowd he obviously feels superior to. After all, this was Albuquerque. He hammered the Democratic Party relentlessly, a pathetically easy target, deservedly despised by sensible people for their mealy-mouthed hypocrisy. But for Horowitz the evil of the Democrats lies much deeper. Forget liberals, he said, waving his arms, these guys are communists. Communists! Collectivists whose dangerous messianic beliefs control academia, the media and even the Pentagon! Surely, I thought, as Horowitz carried on, the guy can’t be serious. Islam is the only religion, he railed, that makes martyrs out of mass murderers. The males go to heaven and consort with 34 Virginians. Virginians! Was he making a joke? Does he know something about Virginians that I don’t? Maybe.

Horowitz is a curious cat. A guy who was raised by communist parents and spent his youth involved in leftist causes who now goes at it with equal fervor from the other side. He is probably not a self-hating Jew, but he could be a self-hating communist. Nothing, certainly not facts, will deter him. Nidal Hasan killed 39 people at Fort Hood, he said. The number, still horrific, was 12. Maybe he was confusing him with Baruch Goldstein, but then, that was only 29. There was nothing in Palestine except “three strips of desert” and the scattered remnants of a dead Turkish empire when the state of Israel was created in 1948. “There were no Palestinians!” a woman in the audience shouted when he said this. “Amen!” said the woman at the table next to me.

Horowitz assured the audience repeatedly that he knew what was really going on with the communists because he’d been there and seen the light—a special envoy, as it were. He and a few others were “second thoughters.” He talked about the Manichaeism of the Democrat/communists and how they saw the world in dangerous, simplistic, religious terms. Earlier in his talk, to get things warmed up, he’d said the Democrats were the serpent in the Garden of Eden, wanting to be as gods. The audience loved this. His two great enemies are the Muslim world, determined to wipe Israel and the United States off the map, and the Democrat/communists, infiltrating every corner of American life. Horowitz seemed genuinely passionate about the communist stuff but he didn’t look as menacing as McCarthy. No firm numbers on the infiltration either, though liberal academia, another bête noire, is filled to the brim.

The Tea Party is not a dangerous or powerful movement but, as others have pointed out, prone to capture or influence by venomous oddballs like Horowitz with more clearly delineated right wing agendas. There is too much muddled thinking, lack of focus and old age to solidify into a strong independent movement. What likely will happen is that their angry, confused energy will be swallowed by an increasingly right wing Republican Party, the Patraeuses and Palins, resulting in a stronger, deadlier version of business as usual. The Teabaggers have at least one thing right: our present government is an enemy. But like any gusher without real direction, they’ll likely as not get swept away by a stronger, loopier current.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:09 | 378887 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

It's cheap shit like this that divides a people.  Why do you let yourself fall for this nonsense?

I like Counterpunch as they've published hard-hitting journalism that mainstream wouldn't touch with Dan Rather's dick, but they also leave a lot of chaff in with the wheat.  This is chaff.

If you took the minimal time to look into David Horowitz's background, you'd discover that he's a charlatan who opportunistically gloms on to whatever avant garde political movement is prevalent at any given time.  He was a leftist in the 1960s, running with the Black Panthers, then eventually turned "conservative" when the political winds blew him there, then a neocon when that became the flavor of the day, and now he's a apparently a so-called "teabagger".  He's also a raging zionist douche.

Quit making an ass of yourself.  This article is about transcending the false divide between "Democrats" and "Republicans", and yet you come here and try to keep the illusion of division alive and well.  Fie, you shit-eating monkey.

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:20 | 378911 DeltaDawn
DeltaDawn's picture

I read David Horowitz's autobiography. Wish Obama would think for himself and leave his red diaper baby belief system in the trash. I admire him greatly. Forming your opinion from a wikipedia entry, Chumba? Read his lengthy, well-written book and get back to me. Just because his ears are open to the "Death to Jews" message does not make him a raging zionist either.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 18:04 | 380172 Unscarred
Unscarred's picture


'Fie'?  Tell me that's a tipo.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:36 | 378956 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


I think you should learn to read. I have posted before about how the Buchanons were sent in to destroy the Reform party. Others have posted the same regarding Palin and Teabaggers.

I think you are one of those kneejerk dogmatists who glory in attacking everyone else while disregarding the truth of their politics.



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:11 | 379227 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

Newsvine is really your true calling Gully. Heed it's call

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:59 | 379030 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

david whorowitz is a cia asset/agent.....his conversion from radical liberal hippie to neocon was as fake as pamela sue anderson's boobs....he writes for cia front organization national review.....he is a complete whore....

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:46 | 379167 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Thanks, Chumba. I saw that post and thought, "Hmm, I don't know if I want to read this...let's see what the peanut gallery has to say."

Chumba 4 Supreme Dictator!


Separately...Tyler! WTF! Why do we have disjointed/disappearing comment-scrubbing (?) bullshit going on up-thread!

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:19 | 378907 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Gosh...all these positive vibes from Volvo drivers protecting their "statist" quo interests...LOL.

What could possibly be keeping our sides apart??? ;-)

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:08 | 379069 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

As usual, race is a big deal for leftists.  At the moment a lot of black people still have hope for Obama.  Based on his father's race, you betcha. However, there are quite a few black people among the most active Tea Partiers.  They don't buy the entitlement trap nor the affirmative action scam.  Teabagger is used not only as a demeaning insult but to divert attention from the Sons of Liberty's defiance of our British overlords in the most famous Tea Party of all.  Our source of inspiration. David Horowitz is no flim flam man.  He has experience and knowledge on his side.  He does get flustered in debates with idiots and too often his emotion erupts into exchanging insults instead of using his skills.  The best thing going for us is our Constitution.  A lot of our problems stem from ignoring it and misreading it.  Just staying true to its requirement that we use honest money would have been a huge help.  The decentralizing tenants of the 10th Amendment would have kept taxes and power closer to citizens rather than being concentrated in an imperial government in DC.  Anyway, Lord Obama has managed to create a huge bipartisan opposition to National Socialism.  And a nice spike in gun sales.  Credit where's it due.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:21 | 379249 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Made me laugh. The few black people amongst the most active Tea parties do not buy the entitlement trap nor the affirmative action scam.

Just for that, they should get their asses kicked out of any movement dedicated to convey actual knowledge.

How does it come that as US citizens they are not aware that racism has worked very well? And what best that racism as an entitlement and affirmative action program?

These guys dont know their US history for sure.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:47 | 379317 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

How dare you show up on my plantation and take my slaves?  I own them.  People have no respect for private property...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:38 | 379816 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

You miss the good old days pan, don't you?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:10 | 378889 Mercury
Mercury's picture

From what I understand of the mechanics of it all "teabagging" isn't necessarily a homosexual act.  And personally I see no shame in being phobic or at least apprehensive about being on the business end of something like that.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:12 | 378895 Chump
Chump's picture

HAHAHA.  Wait, which is the business end??  Wait, don't answer that!

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 14:02 | 379537 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

I never understood the media's fascination with attempting to use that term as derogatory.  I'm quite sure all of the "teabaggers" laugh their asses off at the "teabagees".

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:27 | 378926 Clayton Bigsby
Clayton Bigsby's picture

I'd rather be a "teabagger" and a "teabaggee" - I know it's a personal preference, but I'm just sayin...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:57 | 379020 mojine
mojine's picture

Don't bother asking Zina what She/He/It is saying.

I've never seen a coherent thought emanate from that troll.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:02 | 379043 Zina
Zina's picture

Is the world coherent?

Is reality coherent?

I'm just a nihilist

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 22:18 | 380581 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

that's what he said.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:59 | 379035 Zina
Zina's picture

"The teabaggers are not for an end to government..."


So the BIG problem is: government for WHO? Government doing what? Defending what interests?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:51 | 378845 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Allow me to translate for Zina:

"I'm too lazy to think for myself!!  I want breakfast made for me every morning!!  Right when I wake up at 10am!!  I'm too immature to plan my day appropriately, so I just want someone else to tell me what to do!!  I don't want to have to tackle the big issues!!  Come to think of it, I don't even want to tackle the small issues!!  I want someone else to tackle them for me, so I can just go about my day taking advantage of all the wonderful things that other people have made possible for me!!  Things will work out fine if we just let those in charge do what we elected them to do and stay out of their way!!  I'm hungry!!  Someone bring me a sandwich!!"

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:07 | 378883 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Dude c'mon. I've read the newly balled yuppies with the shiny new guns drone on about firefights with the government when they come for their Gold. I've read the John Galt lives bullshit.

That post isn't far off from some of the posted crap spewing faster and further than the oil spill.

I would say most of the posters here have someone bring them a sandwhich and latte. Or at least an underling who holds their calls.

The problem is REAL Liberals and REAL Conservatives ALL agree on personal freedom. They all agree on Constitutional rights. And I doubt that too many disagree on effective regulation.

Right now both persepctives have been hijaaced and watered down and propagandized to keep as many people angry as possible. Angry people are easily manipulated. Easily controlled.

Maybe you both should reexamine that whole mote and beam in the eye thing.

Before anyone jumps all over me, I'm just sick and tired of all the kneejerk dogmatism. The sooner we agree on a course of action the better we all be. We all need to start discovering what we have in common. Otherwise we fall into the plan, become easily massaged statistics.

I see the future and as Zevon said " It ain't that pretty at all".



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:12 | 378893 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You're an ass, and also incoherent.  I suggest you brush up on your communication skills.

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:19 | 378906 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


I probaly am. I make no bones about it.

I imagine you receive the same accolades rather frequently. Which makes us not that different.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:16 | 379087 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

The problem is REAL Liberals and REAL Conservatives ALL agree on personal freedom. They all agree on Constitutional rights.

No they don't, unless what you mean is that they agree those concepts are archaic and meaningless. 

Right now both persepctives have been hijaaced and watered down and propagandized to keep as many people angry as possible.

Actually, the anger is directed at the phony cap-C "Conservatives" you refer to.  This means we are angry at the genuine conservative perspective having been watered down.  More of us have abandoned the left-right thing than you might think.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:12 | 379230 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

And so well read!

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:59 | 379031 mojine
mojine's picture

A Chumbawambain masterpiece!

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:04 | 379052 Zina
Zina's picture

Chumbawamba, man, your life sucks...

I am Zina. "Ronaldo!"

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:49 | 379181 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Não sabe, não sabe, vai ter que aprender. Orelhas de burro, cabeça de ET!

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:26 | 379262 Zina
Zina's picture

Eu num intendi o que ele falô...

Ô Adriano, tá me ouvindo?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:48 | 379321 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Que e isso? Voce ta falando bobagem.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 13:54 | 379500 Zina
Zina's picture


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 14:21 | 379579 akak
akak's picture

No estamos en Brazil, putas!  Todos aqui deben hablar (pues, escribir) en ingles.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:51 | 379851 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Va tomar banho, vagabundo! ;-)

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 18:48 | 380243 akak
akak's picture

Ya he lo tomado, vagabunda!

Que limpio estoy!

Ojala nuestros politicos fueran hasta un poquito tan limpios tambien.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:52 | 378849 ricksventures
ricksventures's picture

There is a wide spectrum between total control in dictatorship and pure anarchy like in somalia

Just because someone doesnt agree with lying cheating whores in DC that hate their country and want to see it destroyed doesn mean they dont like the rule of law, THE REAL RULE of written law which is not fully practiced right now !!!


in some way we have anarchy when criminals like goldman rule the world and suck the blood of US, but its the fault of USA and USA only, they allowed commies and fathers of these vermin to come to USA (mostly in 1900-1945) and allowed them to rule the USA and now the see the results

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:17 | 378903 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Anarchy (from Greek: ?ναρχ?? anarchí?, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following:

  • "A social state where order and individual responsibility prevail."
  • "No rulership or enforced authority."[1]
  • "Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."[2]
  • "A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."[3]
  • "Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."[4]
  • "Acting without waiting for instructions or official permission... The root of anarchism is the single impulse to do it yourself: everything else follows from this." [5]

Collectivist anarchism (also known as anarcho-collectivism) is a revolutionary[1] doctrine that advocates the abolition of the state and private ownership of the means of production. Instead, it envisions the means of production being owned collectively and controlled and managed by the producers themselves.

For the collectivization of the means of production, it was originally envisaged that workers will revolt and forcibly collectivize the means of production[1] Once collectivization takes place, workers' salaries would be determined in democratic organizations based on the amount of time they contributed to production. These salaries would be used to purchase goods in a communal market.[2] This contrasts with anarcho-communism where wages would be abolished, and where individuals would take freely from a storehouse of goods "to each according to his need." Thus, Bakunin's "Collectivist Anarchism," notwithstanding the title, is seen as a blend of individualism and collectivism.[3]

Collectivist anarchism is most commonly associated with Mikhail Bakunin, the anti-authoritarian sections of the First International, and the early Spanish anarchist movement.

Social anarchism, socialist anarchism,[1] anarcho-socialism, anarchist socialism[2] or communitarian anarchism[3] (sometimes used interchangeably with libertarian socialism,[1] left-libertarianism[4] or left-anarchism[5] in its terminology) is an umbrella term used to differentiate two broad categories of anarchism, this one being the collectivist, with the other being individualist anarchism.

Where individualist forms of anarchism emphasize the individual and his/her will over any kinds of external determinants such as groups, society, traditions, and ideological systems.[6][7], social anarchism sees "individual freedom as conceptually connected with social equality and emphasize community and mutual aid."[8]

Social anarchism rejects private property, seeing it as a source of social inequality.[9] Social anarchism is used to specifically describe tendencies within anarchism that have an emphasis on the communitarian and cooperative aspects of anarchist theory and practice. Social anarchism includes (but is not limited to) anarcho-collectivism, anarcho-communism, some forms of libertarian socialism, anarcho-syndicalism and social ecology.

The term "left-anarchism" or "left-wing anarchism" refers to forms of anarchism that are seen by some on the 'left of politics'. Left-wing anarchism is thus distinguished from free-market anarchism[10] or "right-wing" anarchism (such as that of Murray Rothbard).[11] Ulrike Heider,[I] who claims to be syndicalist, in Anarchism: Left, Right and Green categorizes anarchism into left anarchism, right anarchism (anarcho-capitalism), and green anarchism.[12]

In the United States, the term "social anarchism" is used by the circle involved in publishing the Social Anarchism journal and was promoted by Murray Bookchin. Bookchin identifies social anarchism with the "left," by which he refers to the "great tradition of human solidarity and a belief in the potentiality for humanness," internationalism and confederalism, the democratic spirit, anti-militarism, and rational secularism.[citation needed] Social anarchism aims for "free association of people living together and cooperating in free communities."[13][unreliable source?]

Individualist anarchism refers to several traditions of thought within the anarchist movement that emphasize the individual and their will over any kinds of external determinants such as groups, society, traditions, and ideological systems.[1][2] Individualist anarchism is not a single philosophy but refers to a group of individualistic philosophies that sometimes are in conflict. From there it expanded through Europe and the United States. Benjamin R. Tucker, a famous 19th century individualist anarchist, held that "if the individual has the right to govern himself, all external government is tyranny."[3]

Objectivism is the philosophy created by the Russian-American philosopher and novelist Ayn Rand (1905–1982).[1] Objectivism holds that reality exists independent of consciousness; that individual persons are in direct contact with reality through sensory perception; that human beings can gain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive and deductive logic; that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest; that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights, embodied in pure laissez faire capitalism; and that the role of art in human life is to transform man's widest metaphysical ideas, by selective reproduction of reality, into a physical form—a work of art—that he can comprehend and to which he can respond emotionally.


I'm seeing many similarities between Individualist Anarchy and Objectivism.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:19 | 378908 MyFriendMises
MyFriendMises's picture

wow you really seem to have mastered the cut and paste functionality of your computer.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:38 | 378962 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Much faster than typing it all out. Should I go the Luddite route, maybe type it out on an old Selectric, then scan it run an OCR program then post it?

Does that work for you sunshine?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:55 | 379014 MyFriendMises
MyFriendMises's picture keep talking like that an you might have to get Tea-Bagged.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:36 | 379142 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I agree with MyFriendMises that your post was a bit onerous to slog through GF.

 That said, you provided an excellent selection of reference points for anyone wishing to explore the semantics of 'anarchy'.

I'll add P.Kropotkin's 'Anarchist Morality' (translated) to the mix for anyone who has the inclination for a further look.



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 16:08 | 379236 Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

Reading Gully's obituary would work for me.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:01 | 378868 Tard Carnival
Tard Carnival's picture

Yeah, the lesson to take from this certainly isn't that idealistic dedication to most any extreme belief system has dangerous consequences.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:29 | 378932 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture


A person should not believe in an "ISM"... a person should believe in themselves...

Take notes..

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:37 | 378813 Insert witty title
Insert witty title's picture

Long time reader, first time poster. Of the many excellent sources quoted on this site, I love Hayek the most. I have several copies of Road to Serfdom and quote it to the socialists lurking on the UK Telegraph forums and urge people there to read it. It is beautiful writing, chilling in its message and even more relevant than ever.

ZH I worked at JPM for ten years in equity research and sales, before the credit crunch woke me out of my stupor and made me investigate the world under my own steam. Your site has been a massive help and thanks for being part of my (re)education.

Oh and Cheeky Bastard if you're reading this I wish I had 10% of your character and intellect. Reading your contributions makes me feel like a school kid. Thanks for everything and I hope your health gets better.

Kind regards, back to lurking I go....


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:37 | 378815 MyFriendMises
MyFriendMises's picture

It is amazing to see how the writings of the Austrian economists seem to come true more and more every day.  It is just a shame that such a small amount of people have any clue that they even exist.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:30 | 378937 Clayton Bigsby
Clayton Bigsby's picture

"all great ideas begin as heresy..." - that's why I also, am a big fan of the Austrians

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:51 | 379005 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture





Show Me... I wanna see...


You mean like this?


***** "ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Riots over harsh new austerity measures left three bank workers dead" *****


Or... Like This?!


***** "Europe's Trillion Dollar Bailout Dilemma: The Defacing of the Euro" *****


Or.................... Like This?!


***** "EU Tumbles Toward Failure?.. Greek Unrest May Spread - Gold Speculator" *****

Just kidding that was for the Bottom Feeding Gold Salesmen here... who jerk off while praying for the Rapture to come scoope them up and away from thier fat ugly wives!


Back to for real.. for reals thou.... Like this?!


***** "The Haggling Begins: Greece Attempts To Renegotiate Terms Of ..."


So? Austerity? The mere mention of the Word brings doom and gloom to any and all within ear shot.

Austerity measures... here in the U.S.? How about Bush cutting funding to his American Dream Home Programs 2 years to early?

The Federal monies, guaranteed to come thru the door where pulled... so all of those 50 to 1 leverage deals that where Government guaranteed? fell over, from being to, too top heavy.


December 16, 2003. The American Dream Downpayment Assistance Act authorizes up to $200 million annually for fiscal years 2004 - 2007.


HOME is the largest Federal block grant to State and local governments designed exclusively to create affordable housing for low-income households. Each year it allocates approximately $2 billion among the States and hundreds of localities nationwide. The program was designed to reinforce several important values and principles of community development:


Which was part of: HOME is authorized under Title II of the Cranston-Gonzalez National Affordable Housing Act, as amended. Program regulations are at 24 CFR Part 92.

Which Daddy Bush pushed thru...


Now, after pumping all of these dollars in... Bush cut funding, never mind the shit head idiot dems v. reps...

When Bush pumped the housing market, with the magic, un-written Federal backstop clause and then cut the funding... all of that 50 to 1 leverage took on a new sheen... 50 to 1 leverage for an ongoing Federal Program, or as I would call it... The big boys feeding from the public trough of tax dollars... was safe, safe enough that how many absolute return funds bought into the rated, magic Federal funded and back stopped debt machine / vehicles? LOTS!

But, when the Federal monies where cut... and the magic backstop was found to be a lie... the domino's fell, one after another... Goldman, being smarter than the rest bought shorts and insurance? how many different ways did Goldman profit from the failure, per deal... in the plainest of terms... for every one dollar in failed debt Goldman earned $2 dollars? Short + Swaps? I am guessing there just for the fun of it... sorry.


But the failure was brought on by Bush pumping and then de-stabilizing the Federal dollars (really tax payer dollars) that where assumed to be safe by Bear, Lehman and so on...


And then you have the AfterMaff of the Austerity measures… all those poor souls who had Banked on those super duper safe absolute funds… and those 6% returns… who got milked by the system that was geared for their pleasure?


In plain English Austerity is an extreme and what happens after is at best an un-known, per recent history more so than my making mention of the possibility of.


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 23:57 | 380720 aaronvelasquez
aaronvelasquez's picture

It is amazing how much less of a nutjob Alex Jones seems to be these days.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:41 | 378822 TraderMark
TraderMark's picture

Growing voices in Congress for bailout of private pensions.  Yes this is serious and not from "The Onion"


Can you imagine once the bill for public pensions comes due?

U.S. lawmakers are laying the groundwork for a possible federal bailout of some faltering pension plans that are jointly run by companies and unions. The effort reflects a worrisome new problem in the nation's troubled retirement-savings system: the grim financial condition of such pension plans, known as multi-employer plans. They are common in the hotel, construction, trucking and other industries, and cover about 10 million workers, or almost one in four workers who have a private pension.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:24 | 379107 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Actions like that virtually guarantee a hyperinflation event.  People believe that other people's money grows on tress or something.  We can't afford the spending we're doing now.  My god what are they thinking?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:50 | 379185 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Does everyone qualify for this new government funded pension, or just the people that were duped by their employer?  This is evil on many levels.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:42 | 378825 You Cant Handle...
You Cant Handle the Truth's picture

"We must all at once stop identifying ourselves as Democrats and Republicans.  The elites use these definitions as part of a divide and conquer strategy."



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:49 | 378839 MyFriendMises
MyFriendMises's picture

100% agree.  All of the political debate, whether it be about party affiliation, gun rights, abortion rights or health care is nothing more than the techniques used by TPTB to divert the peoples attention from the true issues at hand and which allow TBTB to manipulate and control.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:45 | 378833 Ethics Gradient
Ethics Gradient's picture

Freedom is a complex issue.

There are two types of liberty (read freedom): positive and negative.

Positive liberty allows you to be free FROM something, say, freedom from poverty (through benefits), freedom from having to pay for your own healthcare and freedom from terrorism. 

Negative liberty allows you free speech, to smoke in a bar, to walk on a plane with a bottle of wine and without having to undress for security first.

Relevant to this is the recent fashion in Governments the world over to infantilise the population and have encouraged the take up of the positive liberty philosophy. "It's alright, you don't have to worry, there are safety nets and you don't need to think about or take responsibility for your own actions - just follow all the laws and you'll be fine. We'll keep you safe".

People now don't want negative liberty - they wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it and certainly wouldn't cope.

I suppose you could say that democracy is working. People don't want to have to worry about markets or politics or philosophy or art or education. They just want to feel that someone is looking over them and has got the lot covered in some sort of fashion - even if it is imperfect.

The people have what they want. They have their liberty of choice and a totalitarian government wouldn't necessarily change that.

Go long on soma.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:54 | 378853 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

See Zina above.

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:03 | 378871 ricksventures
ricksventures's picture

HOW about responsibilities ??? none ? welcome to nanny state, that takes cares of you from craddle to grave?


negative freedoms ? never heard of that

how about freedom of kicking out smokers from you bar that you OWN if you like OR

how about telling all non smokers to suck it up if they mind smokers since you OWN the bar and you dont mind smokers

how about kicking all those who hate your country out ?

how about public transport does need security but a REAL security like profiling and not profiling irish nuns ?

only a REAL moron who has never lived under a real dictatorship with trust governments with what freedoms they allow and believing that governments will take care of you and of your responsibilities with unlimited social benefits for ever without work


FREEDOM IS NOT FASHION unless you are looking forward to live in north korea where only one person enjoys expensive cognac while the rest starve and eat grass

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:34 | 378948 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

How funny that freedom is how to control others through private property. Fits the bill perfectly of what freedom is...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:45 | 378988 Chump
Chump's picture

Someone forced you to go into his hypothetical bar?  You should do something about that, because your liberty was denied.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 13:42 | 379438 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Force does not exist. Nobody forces anyone to drink, eat, have social relations, to work to make a living...

Nobody. So how is this criterion useful? I wonder. People love so much safe bets.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:39 | 378966 Ethics Gradient
Ethics Gradient's picture

I did say it was complex!

The only point of yours I feel I should address is that if there are indeed two types of liberty and one is in the ascendance, then that could be described trend or a fashion.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:06 | 379218 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture


I wish to be free to dump motor oil in the sewer.  I wish to be free to drive 65 in a school zone.  I wish to be free to shoot my guns when and where ever I want to.  I wish to be able to spray acid on women who don't cover their faces with burkhas.  I wish to have the freedom to burn the flag and piss on statues of Jesus.  I wish to have the freedom to open an abortion clinic right next to your highschool.

Finally, I wish to have the freedom to protect myself from you using my handgun if you are offended by anything I do and wish to cause me harm.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 13:46 | 379458 robobbob
robobbob's picture

In in effort to make an absurd argument, you conveneintly left out one of the foundations required of a free society. freedom to act on your own responsibility, UNTIL it imposes directly on anothers freedom. dump oil and kill my farm crops? lawsuit. Drive recklessly and damage my property or harm me? lawsuit. disfigure someone? felony assault. Few people define freedom as absolute to the detriment of others.

why is this article drawing so many uninspired, dull witted, long winded, and generally rude posts?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 14:18 | 379575 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Rick categorically denied negative freedoms.  Just adding some perspective.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:05 | 378876 derp
derp's picture

Read Berlin's essays on Liberty, he describes this in detail. A democracy can be more totalitarian than a dictatorship, just because you vote doesn't make you free.

PS. I'm not arguing in support of dictators

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:49 | 379000 Chump
Chump's picture

Please please please learn the actual meanings of words before you toss them about willy nilly.  There is liberty, unqualified, meaning "the freedom to dispose of your life as you see fit."  Inherent in that meaning is that others are free to do the same, without infringement or restriction.  Therefore, liberty has nothing to do with smoking or carrying wine on a plane.  Liberty means I am free to spend my money at a bar that allows smoking, or it means that a bar owner is free to tell smokers to leave.  It means an airline is free to enforce a dress of code of sandals only, while I am free to travel by another airline or method if I disagree with that code.

You are defining liberty from the viewpoint of totalitarianism to begin with.  "This means you can do this, but then there is this type which means you can't do that."  Enough, stop it.  Leave me the fuck alone to do what I want.  There's liberty.

The people have what they want.

Who people?  What people?  I am part of this people, and I can positively assure you I don't have what I want.  Do I not count as part of this people?  Who decides?  Ahhh...I'm starting to see what you did there...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:22 | 379102 nmewn
nmewn's picture

As soon as you see the words "negative liberties" you know what your dealing Oxymoron...LOL.


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:24 | 379256 cognitis
cognitis's picture

Don't use specific jargon such as that hack Berlin's "negative liberty" in a general dispute. You confuse as did Berlin "liberty" with some "freedom"; "liberty" is of Roman civilization and imposed by masters (Romans) on slaves (Germans and Celts), while "freedom" is a savage vacuous result of Germans: liberty enforces rights of the civilized by eliminating the savagery of the uncivilized. 

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 13:44 | 379446 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

This might be complicated if you factor in Germans and Celts having slaves and being masters themselves...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 14:15 | 379568 cognitis
cognitis's picture

To what does "this" refer? EthicGradient's (EG) confusion between Liberty and Freedom should be explained and not "complicated" had Celts and Bauer been both slaves and masters; but as Celts and Bauer have for over 2000 years been continuously slaves, their confusion between Liberty and Freedom results rather from a kind of Nietzschean ressentiment

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:04 | 379721 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

I read a guy who developped a pseudo theory on critique and criticize. On how those two words were supposed to mean differently, other than by local usage.

The english language having in its lexicon two words to mean the same is purely coincidence. It means nothing.

Both words are related to the same core concept and convey the exactly same root meaning.

Both relate to the privileged relation granted to a member of a tribe by another member of a tribe.

Nothing more.


The invasion of Europe by the Celts dated back more than 2000 years now? And in what way were they slaves when they conquested Europe, ousting the original Europeans?

As to Bauers, no comments.



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:25 | 379775 cognitis
cognitis's picture

Even the scribe Berlin discerns between Liberty and Freedom, two words as I proved which have radically different meanings. The only one arguing that Freedom and Liberty are perfect synonyms is you, and no one consents with you. Celts and Bauer were Europe's aborigines and illiterate savages free from Roman rule and civilization, thus to Celts and Bauer civilization necessarily is always conjoined to a deficiency of freedom.You need to develop your argument rather just repeating how the two words are exactly the same, since they clearly are not.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:39 | 379818 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

You proved nothing.

Celts are not European's aborigines but invaders from the East that wiped out original european dwellers.

Very few original Europeans are left today. All the others are indo-european people.


I dont really need to developp the argumentation. English has gone through many linguistic influences and inherited different terms which mean the same.

Freedom and liberty mean the same. Theirs respective roots refer to the same thing: the special and favoured relation a tribe member has with another tribe member.  That girates around the notion of love. A form of affection developped by a peer for another peer.


All you did is to apply a pseudo-distinction between the two terms on the only merit the English language has inherited two terms to mean the same.

Languages are nothing but a product of randomness. Very hard to draw the conclusions you want to draw.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 16:00 | 379870 cognitis
cognitis's picture

I dont really need to developp the argumentation

Thanks for confirming yourself to have no argument: arguments are necessarily developed, and an "undeveloped argument" isn't an argument at all but an assertion. Try proving Celts to have "conquered" anyone: Celts were illiterate savages who relinquished no written documents at all. I can prove Rome to have enslaved Celts and Bauer, since civilized literate Romans documented the sale of Celts and Bauer as chattel. Languages are not "random", but your thoughts are.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 16:16 | 379914 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

I spoke about argumentation.

The rest of your comment is stupid. If you only rely on evidences the type you mentioned, how can you prove the existence of the Celts?

Languages are the products of randomness.

The effort some people put into preserving their comfort of mind always comes as a surprise.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 21:29 | 380499 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Well AnAnon:

It is settled then- you have comfort of mind.  Some of us remain troubled.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:55 | 379337 cognitis
cognitis's picture

Don't use specific jargon such as that hack Berlin's "negative liberty" in a general dispute. You confuse as did Berlin "liberty" with some "freedom"; "liberty" is of Roman civilization and imposed by masters (Romans) on slaves (Germans and Celts), while "freedom" is a savage vacuous result of Germans: liberty enforces rights of the civilized by eliminating the savagery of the uncivilized. 

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:00 | 379710 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture


Liberty: the leave a slave gets from his ship while in harbor.  Needs to be back or he's AWOL; a complete drunken binge usually.  No responsibilities and he's property. That's NOT freedom.

Freedom: complete responsibility for one's actions, therefore one is in complete awareness of oneself and everyone else and is serving all at once.  That is freedom, that is responsibility, that is service to all.

Please, let's try to get at least small things right here.

Very few can even get deflation / inflation right.

I might be relegated to just reading the headlines and searching for CD comments and a few select others.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:53 | 378848 velobabe
velobabe's picture

my 2¢s


loved this read, thanks.

         Get your money into real assets and get prepared?


just junk me, i won't take it personal†

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 16:01 | 379872 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Sounds like you've found your sadistic side, velobabe...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 17:35 | 380110 velobabe
velobabe's picture

what does that mean, ass†

i have been quite comfortable with my sadistic side for some time.

but, i am going to check the dictionary first.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 21:04 | 380112 velobabe
velobabe's picture

i got a double

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 09:59 | 378861 nedwardkelly
nedwardkelly's picture

"We must all at once stop identifying ourselves as Democrats and Republicans."



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:00 | 378865 TheGoat
TheGoat's picture

Excellent book.

Steve Keen has some great reading to. 

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:00 | 378867 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Gold.  Guns.  Garden.

This is as much a political manifesto as it is a motto of survival for the coming years.

With gold, you control your personal economy.

With guns, you control your personal security.

With garden, you control your personal well-being.

Gold, guns and garden at the core of your personal existence facilitates your inherent right of sovereignty.

Just remember the corollary:

Silver.  Bullets.  Seed.

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:28 | 378927 bob resurrected
bob resurrected's picture

Meatloaf resurrected. The new must have for your bunker.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:32 | 378943 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Gold needs be turned into cash. Unless your whole medium of excahnge is Gold. Are we living in Cyrodiil? Maybe we are Hobbits. You could always hang onto it until you die. Keep it burried in a coffe can in the back yard. Then no one will ever know about it, no one will set their greedy sights on your wealth.

If someone really wants your Gold, you know like real intelligent criminals or just plain pedal to the metal badasses ( not to mention your friendly neighborhood BIGOV special forces) they will get it.

Guns only offer security until the other guy has more or better guns. I truly love the yuppies with their newly engorged gun balls screaming " Yippie ki-yay Motherfucker". I enjoy action movies but never confuse them with reality. None of us are Jack Bauer shaking off gunshot and stab wounds, limping off into the sunset.

Gardening makes the most sense. Throw some meat in, Aquaponics for the fish, a goat, chickens, and you have a full lifestyle.

Guns and Gold, you watched a little too much Deadwood.




Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:48 | 378998 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

You seem very ignorant, offering only the most common stereotypes in your comments. This isn't Huffpo, the standards here are a bit higher. I would advise you to read more, think more, and post less until you have learned a bit.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:33 | 379280 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

So if someone comes to rape your loved ones you just try to reconcile because you're no "Jack Bauer". Got it.

For the rest of us it's all about treating guns as powerful tools for various purposes and training with them so we can avoid being shot or stabbed by those that refuse to reconcile.

Molon Labe

Sat, 05/29/2010 - 00:02 | 380725 aaronvelasquez
aaronvelasquez's picture

You're missing the point.  You don't turn your gold into cash, you barter with it.  It IS cash. 

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:35 | 378951 ricksventures
ricksventures's picture

how good is your small gun when the feds have drones and an army behind them to take your property and feed off it ?

the feds own the country unless the army and police decide to challenge feds and take the side of people, only then would the few guys in DC have no power


so right now you really have no future, your future is all used up...


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:53 | 379009 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

If ignorance is bliss, you must be the dali lama. I have major issues with some comments by chumba, but his comment above is correct.

No one man stands against the government alone. You won't fight the army with a shotgun. But it is the first line of self-defense; any man who will not defend his own life and instead chooses to rely on the state, deserves what he gets. You will note that in New Orleans, the police looted and deserted. If you are unarmed your life won't be worth a damn. But is it worth a damn now? We wonder.


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:42 | 379155 Chump
Chump's picture


Comments like his are designed to make people cower before a mightier force.  Yes, if I were to go toe-to-toe with the entire military, I would lose.  Quickly.  Easily.  I would be as a fart in a tornado.

So.fucking.what.  Should I instead hang my head and obey?  No, I would rather...die.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:44 | 379305 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture


They may seek my life, but they will have to fight for it. The Second Amendment is the only one that should be exercised immediately in the face of its violation. This isn't macho talk - as free citizens it is our duty. We owe to ourselves, and to the innocent

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:11 | 379228 ATM
ATM's picture

How good is that small gun? I don't know, why don't we ask the Afghanis and the Russians how those small guns do against a superpower military?? A few million armed people v. a million well armed soldiers may be a fight the army can never win especially if that army is manned with a vast majority of soldiers who are sympathetic to the people.... 

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:01 | 379712 Lndmvr
Lndmvr's picture

Learn about the small single shot pistols dropped to the resistance in WWII. Frame another question after.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 21:35 | 380510 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Hey ricksventures:

Did you ever think the Feds have most of the Armed Forces in Iraq and Afghanistan because they are afraid to bring them all home ?  Maybe the Armed Forces might not like to see what has become of the home of the brave and the free... 

Just a thought....



Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:14 | 379083 Miss Expectations
Miss Expectations's picture

I would like to augment your list with a few Rhodesian Ridgebacks:

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:07 | 378884 AllYourBaseAreB...
AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs's picture

"We must all at once stop identifying ourselves as Democrats and Republicans.  The elites use these definitions as part of a divide and conquer strategy."


If we continue along the present path, it's all coming down.


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:10 | 378890 Segestan
Segestan's picture

"When collapse is imminent, the little rodents flee".  Pliny the Elder.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:12 | 378894 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

A Friend of mine that is in the Stock Market and Real Estate tells me to sell my Rental Real Estate and buy Dividend paying stocks that they are pretty much risk free.  No Property Taxes, Insurance, Repairs, Vacancy, Rental headaches, etc. But, I like my Rental Real Estate.  Bricks and Morter, usually a steady stream of income. Although, not so lately with the economic downturn.  More difficult to find good long term Tenants but I do think that is temporary. Rents do go up with real inflation. A hard asset that has withstood the test of time.

As Will Rogers used to say buy Real Estate young Man they are not making any more of it.

I also would never put my nest egg in a Stock Market that is totally controlled by a few Bankers.  Pushed up or down on their whim.  It would be like putting my entire fate in the hands of people I do not know or trust why would anyone do that?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:26 | 379120 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

Rule number 1! Don't put ALL of your eggs in one basket...

Bank Stocks, B of A...

RealEstate, income producing... ONLY!

Physical Gold and / or Precious Metals...

and the last is the most important... GUNS! be able to protect your loved ones!

If the markets are where you are looking ETF's are the new, old thing... but you can get coverage in the BRIC's easily... Make sure you have covered all of your bases... there are no do overs, buts, ands or I forgot I need a Mulligan.

Be prepared and best of luck to you and yours in these trying times.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 17:14 | 380070 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Of course I have Guns and plenty of ammo.  Not just for protection but to Hunt with. A lot easier to kill a Deer with a gun than your bear hands.

I also have a generator, fireplace, gas powered chain saw (gasoline and 2& Oil).  Do need to get a hand pump for my well. But with the Generator, chain saw I can use them now.  I cut wood for the fireplace, use the portable generator when the electric goes out during a storm.

What good is gold to me if I need to heat my home in an emergency?  What good is gold to me if I need to kill a bird or squirl to eat?  What good is gold to me if I need to protect myself?

Had to laugh at my Cousin she said that she has three freezers full of food so she is OK.  I said what if the electric fails?  How will you preserve three freezers full of food?  She said she did not know.  I said you need a whole house generator.  That is how.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 21:43 | 380520 Kayman
Kayman's picture

No, I have to disagree, you can indeed kill a deer with your bear hands.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:15 | 378899 bob resurrected
bob resurrected's picture


Zina is in the majority and consistent with the human trajectory. Though it is wrong on so many levels, I won't bet against it.


When we amass, or centralize, authority and/or resources we become more vulnerable to physical annihilation. Centralization breeds specialization of function, bringing economies of scale yet discounting risks of scale. It is myopic. It brings a gravy train of prosperity at the expense of dependency on an asymmetric system. It is asymmetric because it is one unit, one world, one system. If one part of the system fails we all are doomed. The more units and the broader based the skill set of those units, the more symmetrical a society. Naturally, it is limited in scope but indestructible. If one third of the world is wiped out by catastrophe in an asymmetric society, the other two thirds would soon follow. If one third of the world is wiped out by catastrophe in a symmetric society, the other two thirds would be unaffected. We would do well to pursue symmetry.

But we won't.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:32 | 378944 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

What an acute observation. I suppose you collected all that when observing the US?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:53 | 379012 bob resurrected
bob resurrected's picture

not just

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:25 | 379258 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

You should have spent more time observing the US then...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:35 | 379147 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

bob resurrected,

                        I think we should thin the herd, the people who want to go... i.e. the Rapture Crowd... lets fucking send them... and I think if the lights go out, we will have a true thining of the herd... natural selection will be in full effect... "what do you mean my water pistol will not stop an apache with FLIR? I have been practicing my paintball skills?! thats not fair!" those types...

                        ...and everyone in this video (all rights to whom first posted this Gem and thanks)

Be well, JW

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:43 | 379163 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

perfectly said Bob.

+ 10^10000000

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:22 | 378915 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

I thought last week we were at war with Eastasia.  Now you tell me the enemy is Oceania...

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:26 | 378924 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Mr. Krieger is definitely on the road to intellectual serfdom; one wonders where all these "we need to save the constitution" types have been for the last 3 decades.

5:1 odds he voted for Reagan and both Bushes.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:56 | 379017 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

You obviously didn't read the part where he said not to be a partisan jackass.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:49 | 379182 Augustus
Augustus's picture

I'm not offering to take the bet either way.  However, you should note that it is only possible to vote for the candidates on the ballot.  Someone voting for McCain in the last election did not have to be a McCain supporter, just aware enough to see that BHO (pbuh) was a total fraud and long term communist follower. 

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:26 | 378925 DeltaDawn
DeltaDawn's picture

Mike, have you found any good plans to rebuild our economy after we crash?  I agree localism is the key.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 10:30 | 378935 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

War, the road to casualties. I want to write a book like that. In this book, I contend to put forward the evidences can lead to casualties. Some people to preorder it?


Sometimes, I really wonder if the US colonization of the Indian lands was not centrally planified. And whether it was a success or not.

So the old scam, people try  their luck at a recipe that might work or fail. And people who succeeded using that recipe use the failures as pratical evidences to show that the recipe cant work.

The last guy in the room closes the door. It is a well known behaviour. And tries to convince all the guys outside they cant enter the room by the door. Entering a room by opening a door does not work, the guy screams. As an evidence, the guy produced all the cases of people who did not manage to enter the room because they failed to open the door. And there are a lot.

Tough luck, people outside dont look at the failures, they look at the successes. They know perfectly well one can enter a room when you open the door. And their practical example, they have just in front of them, the guy who went last into the room and closed the door and keep claiming you cant enter a room by opening the door.


What is going to be the legacy of the US? Duplicity? I see only that. 


Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:07 | 379059 bob resurrected
bob resurrected's picture

Duplicity is is the legacy of human nature and all its institutions. Sind Sie ein bißchen scheinheilig?

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:27 | 379265 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

How so? You know that well human nature you have such a knowledge? You must sell that knowledge very high.


No, duplicity is a specificity of the US. Please provide example of governments preaching liberty while having slaves, preaching private property while land grabbing an entire continent.

It should be easy enough as it is part of the human nature.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:51 | 379325 bob resurrected
bob resurrected's picture

Should I start with Sumer? Or, skip to the Europeans that came to the Americas.

Fri, 05/28/2010 - 13:47 | 379463 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Start with anyone you want. But start somewhere.


Please provide an example.

Hint: neither Sumer or the European monarchies coming to the Americas fit the bill.

Good luck. I might not learn much about human nature but I might learn about you.

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