Mike Krieger On Our Road To Serfdom

Tyler Durden's picture

The Road To Serfdom, By Mike Krieger of KAM LP


As is true with respect to other great evils, the measures by which war might be made altogether impossible for the future may well be worse than even war itself.
- F.A. Hayek in The Road to Serfdom

Those who preach a “New Order” which is no more than a projection of the tendencies of the last forty years, and who can think of nothing better than to imitate Hitler.  It is, indeed, those who cry loudest for the New Order who are most completely under the sway of the ideas which have created this war and most of the evils from which we suffer.

- F.A. Hayek in The Road to Serfdom

I recently finished reading F.A. Hayek’s classic work The Road to Serfdom and quite frankly I was completely blown away.  Its author is one of the greats in Austrian economic thought and he won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1974.  The Road to Serfdom was first published in Britain in 1944 and in the United States the following year.  I found the book to hold such significant lessons about the dangers of concentrated political and economic organization that I was compelled to write down many of my favorite quotes and passages in the email below.  Where I have found the need to comment I have added “my two cents.”  I suggest everyone on this list buy this book and read it if you have not already and to reread it if you had in the past.  It’s almost scary how he seems to be describing many of the exact same things that are happening today.  I guess that is because as much as things change, human nature never really does.  So we create the same disasters over and over. 

I am about to head out on the road (not to serfdom hope!) and before I do I want to issue a rallying cry to everyone that craves freedom both politically and economically.  We must all at once stop identifying ourselves as Democrats and Republicans.  The elites use these definitions as part of a divide and conquer strategy.  In any event, Bush and Obama seem pretty similar to me anyway.  Two thugs.  We must get back to our roots and what made this country great.  The enemy is not someone from a different political party or a “capitalist” or a “socialist.”  The enemy is collectivist thought imposed on humanity from the top down.  Top down collectivist thought has taken on many forms whether it is Communism or Fascism but in the end what happens is a small ruling elite run the lives of 99% of the population.  Those that resist are killed or imprisoned.  I certainly do not think I have all the answers.  What I do know is that freedom loving people the world over must shed their prior false political identities and together agree on certain key principles.  There is a battle going on between a small highly organized group that wants a collectivist top down structure of world government and they are rushing to put these plans into action.  This is not conspiracy theory it’s very obvious if you open your eyes.  Get your money into real assets and get prepared so that you are not destitute when it comes time to stand up and rebuild.  We can make this world a better place but it’s not going to be easy.  I will be in touch.    

The Road to Serfdom:  Favorite Passages and Quotes

What in the future will probably appear the most significant and far-reaching effect of this success is the new sense of power over their own fate, the belief in the unbounded possibilities if improving their own lot, which the success already achieved created among men.  With the success grew ambition – and man had every right to be ambitious.  What had been an inspiring promise seemed no longer enough, the rate of progress far too slow; and the principles which had made this progress possible in the past came to be regarded more as obstacles to speedier progress, impatiently to be brushed away, than as the conditions for the preservation and development of what had already been achieved.
- Chapter One “The Abandoned Road”

My Two Cents: Basically as mankind advanced and become more free and standards of living advanced, a trend toward idealist and impossible to achieve utopian concepts became increasingly prevalent and the attempts to implement these have actually cause immense suffering and in the process many forgot the actual methods by which the prior progress had actually been achieved.  I think this is a great parallel to the modern United States where we have forgotten the roots of that which made this country great.  An attempts to rediscover those roots is burgeoning with the current Constitutional movement, which I fully endorse.

The complete collapse of the belief in the attainability of freedom and equality through Marxism has forced Russia to travel the same road toward a totalitarian, purely negative, non-economic society of unfreedom and inequality which Germany has been following.  Not that communism and fascism are essentially the same.  Fascism is the stage reached after communism has proven an illusion, and it has proved as much an illusion in Stalinist Russia as in pre-Hitler Germany.
- Quote by Peter Drucker used by Hayek in Chapter Two “The Great Utopia”

Many people, on the other hand, who value the ultimate ends of socialism no less than the socialists refuse to support socialism because of the dangers to other values they see in the methods proposed by the socialists. 
- Chapter Three “Individualism and Collectivism”

Or, to express it differently, planning and competition can be combined only by planning for competition but not by planning against competition.
- Chapter Three “Individualism and Collectivism”

My Two Cents: Planning an entire economy doesn’t work!  Look at the mess China is in.  Believe me, they have a major mess on their hands and if they don’t either appreciate the yuan or back their currency by gold soon I expect a total collapse there.

It should be noted that, moreover, that monopoly is frequently the product of factors other than the lower costs of greater size.  It is attained through collusive agreement and promoted by public policies.
- Chapter Four “The ‘Inevitability’ of Planning”

My Two Cents: Can you say the modern U.S. corrupt and rigged economy.

While there is nothing in modern technological developments which forces us toward comprehensive economic planning, there is a great deal in them which makes infinitely more dangerous the power a planning authority would possess. 
- Chapter Four “The ‘Inevitability’ of Planning”

My Two Cents: And this was written in Hayek’s time.  We must be more vigilant than ever to protect against an authoritarian government since the technology available to them to enforce tyranny is beyond nightmarish.  Why anyone has any trust in the Federal government of virtually any nation to do the right thing is beyond me.
From the saintly and single-minded idealist to the fanatic is often but a step.
- Chapter Four “The ‘Inevitability’ of Planning”

That in a planned system we cannot confine collective action to the tasks on which we can agree but are forced to produce agreement on everything in order that any action can be taken at all, is one of the features which contributes more than most to determining the character of a planned system…It is important clearly to see the causes of this admitted ineffectiveness of parliaments when it comes to a detailed administration of the economic affairs of a nation.  The fault is neither with the individual representatives nor with the parliamentary institutions as such but with the contradictions inherent in the task with which they are charged.
- Chapter Five “Planning and Democracy”

Yet agreement that planning is necessary, together with the inability of democratic assemblies to produce a plan, will evoke stronger and stronger demands that the government or some single individual should be given power to act on their own responsibility…Hitler did not have to destroy democracy; he merely took advantage of the decay of democracy and at the critical moment obtained the support of many to whom, though they detested Hitler, he seemed the only man strong enough to get things done.
- Chapter Five “Planning and Democracy”

My Two Cents: As if dealing with the current inept and corrupt administration is not bad enough.  What we get in the backlash to this administration could be worse.  We must all agree on the Constitution so that we do not put in a demagogue after Obama or in a “crisis” that makes us afraid.

It may well be true that our generation talks and thinks too much of democracy and too little of the values which it serves…Democracy is essentially a means, a utilitarian device for safeguarding internal peace and individual freedom…and it is at least conceivable that under the government of a very homogenous and doctrinaire majority democratic government might be as oppressive as the worst dictatorship…The fashionable concentration on democracy as the main value threatened is not without danger.  It is largely responsible for the misleading and unfounded belief that, so long as the ultimate power is the will of the majority, the power cannot be arbitrary.  The false assurance which many people derive from this belief is an important cause of the general unawareness of the dangers which we face…Democratic control may prevent power from becoming arbitrary, but it does not do so by its mere existence.  If democracy resolves on a task which necessarily involves the use of power which cannot be guided by fixed rules, it must become arbitrary power.
- Chapter Five “Planning and Democracy”

My Two Cents: So prescient.  Don’t fall for the propaganda that because we are in a “democracy” all is ok.  Just look at how the Congress rams through extremely unpopular bills and refuses to pass a real Audit the Fed bill when 80% of the population wants it.  America was founded as a REPUBLIC.  There is a difference.  Look it up.

The more the state plans, the more difficult planning becomes for the individual.
- Chapter Six “Planning and the Rule of Law”

It is the Rule of Law, in the sense of the rule of formal law, the absence of legal privileges of particular people designated by authority, which safeguards that equality before the law which is the opposite of arbitrary government…To produce the same result for different people, it is necessary to treat them differently.
- Chapter Six “Planning and the Rule of Law”

My Two Cents:  There is no rule of law in America.  Obama basically suspended it during the financial crisis.  Remember, rights and the rule of law are always removed by autocratic leadership in a crisis.  Think 9/11 and the financial crisis. 

It may well be that Hitler has obtained his unlimited powers in a strictly constitutional manner and that whatever he does is therefore legal in the juridical sense.  But who would suggest for that reason that the Rule of Law still prevails in Germany?
- Chapter Six “Planning and the Rule of Law”

Nothing would at first seem to affect private life less than a state control of the dealings in foreign exchange, and most people will regard its introduction with complete indifference.  Yet the experience of most Continental countries has taught thoughtful people to regard this step as the decisive advance on the path to totalitarianism and the suppression of individual liberty.
- Chapter Seven “Economic Control and Totalitarianism”

My Two Cents: This is HUGELY important.  Once the FX controls really kick in you will know deep trouble lies ahead.  I expect this within 1-2 years at the latest.

The reader may take it that whoever talks about potential plenty is either dishonest or does not know what he is talking about.
- Chapter Seven “Economic Control and Totalitarianism”

My Two Cents: Potential plenty is a myth used by collectivists since the beginning to market their ideas to a naive public.  It is still used today.  It’s a sham.

To believe that the power which is thus conferred on the state is merely transferred to it from others is erroneous.  It is a power which is newly created and which in a competitive society nobody possesses. 
- Chapter Eight “Who, Whom?”

My Two Cents: Decentralized power is always inherently less dangerous than centralized power.  Nothing is more dangerous than a “global centralized power.”  This is the direction the elite and oligarchs are attempting to take us in to create a neo-feudalism with them and their progeny as the aristocracy.

It is not rational conviction but the acceptance of a creed which is required to justify a particular plan.  And, indeed, socialists everywhere were the first to recognize that the task they had set themselves required the general acceptance of a common Weltanschauung, of a definite set of values.
- Chapter Eight “Who, Whom?”

There is a great deal of truth in the often heard statement that fascism and National Socialism are a sort of middle-class socialism –only that in Italy and Germany the supporters of these new movements were economically hardly a middle class any longer.  It was to a large extent a revolt of a new underprivileged class against the labor aristocracy which the industrial labor movement had created…They were quite ready to take over the methods of the older socialism but intended to employ them in the service of a different class. 
- Chapter Eight “Who, Whom?”

In a society used to freedom it is unlikely that many people would be ready deliberately to purchase security at this price.  But the policies which are now followed everywhere, which hand out the privilege of security, now to this group and now to that, are nevertheless rapidly creating conditions in which the striving for security tends to become stronger than the love of freedom.  The reason for this is that with every grant of complete security to one group the insecurity of the rest necessarily increases.  If you guarantee to some a fixed part of a variable cake, the share left to the rest is bound to fluctuate proportionately more than the size of the whole.  And the essential element of security which the competitive system offers, the great variety of opportunities, is more and more reduced. 
- Chapter Nine “Security and Freedom”

My Two Cents: This is the real reason the welfare state is so dangerous.  It ultimately collapses and then in the chaos and vacuum that follows freedom is often sacrificed.  We must never allow this in the United States.

Just as the democratic statesman who sets out to plan economic life will soon be confronted with the alternative of either assuming dictatorial powers or abandoning his plans, so the totalitarian dictator would soon have to choose between disregard for ordinary morals and failure.  It is for this reason that the unscrupulous and uninhibited are likely to be more successful in a society tending toward totalitarianism.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

My Two Cents:  Look at how we reward failure.  The Treasury Secretary couldn’t pay his taxes.  What a clown he is and what a clown Obama is for keeping this clown around.

He will be able to obtain the support of all the docile and gullible, who have no strong convictions if their own but are prepared to accept a ready-made system of values if it is only drummed into their ears sufficiently loudly and frequently.  It will be those whose vague and imperfectly formed ideas are easily swayed and whose passions and emotions are readily aroused who will thus swell the ranks of the totalitarian party.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

My Two Cents: We must all work as hard as possible to inform the largest number of people as possible ahead of the collapse so that some when we rebuild the demagogues do not come out on top in the battle of ideas.

Collectivism on a world scale seems to be unthinkable –except in the service of a small ruling elite.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

My Two Cents: G20, Bilderberg Group.  Any secretive group of elites must be examined much more closely by the populace.  Time to grow up.    

To split or decentralize power is necessarily to reduce the absolute amount of power, and the competitive system is the only system designed to minimize by decentralization the power exercised by man over man.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

The principle that the end justifies the means is in individualist ethics regarded as the denial of all morals.  In collectivist ethics it becomes necessarily the supreme rule; there is literally nothing which the consistent collectivist must not be prepared to do if it serves “the good of the whole” because to him the “good of the whole” is to him the only criterion of what ought to be done…There is always in the eyes of the collectivist a greater goal which these acts serve and which to him justifies them because the pursuit of the common end of society can know no limits in any rights or values of any individual.
- Chapter Ten “Why the Worst Get on Top”

The moral consequences of totalitarian propaganda which we must now consider are, however, of an even more profound kind.  They are destructive of all moral because they undermine one of the foundations of all morals; the sense of and respect for truth.
- Chapter Eleven “The End of Truth”

My Two Cents: If you haven’t noticed the mainstream media is full of lies and trite stories.  The government is the most consistent liar I have ever encountered.

It is not difficult to deprive the great majority of independent thought.  But the minority who will retain an inclination to criticize must also be silenced.  We have already seen why coercion cannot be confined to the acceptance of the ethical code underlying the plan according to which all social activity is directed.  Since many parts of this code will never be explicitly stated, since many part of the guiding scale of values will exist only implicitly by the plan, the plan itself in every detail, in fact every act of the government, must become sacrosanct and exempt from criticism. 
- Chapter Eleven “The End of Truth”

In particular, they all (totalitarian systems) seem to have in common an intense dislike of the more abstract forms of thought –a dislike characteristically also shown by many of the collectivists among out scientists.
- Chapter Eleven “The End of Truth”

In any society freedom of thought will probably be of direct significance only for a small minority.  But this does not mean that anyone is competent, or ought to have power, to select those to whom this freedom is to be reserved…The tragedy of collectivist thought is that, while it starts out to make reason supreme, it ends by destroying reason because it misconceives the process on which the growth of reason depends. 
- Chapter Eleven “The End of Truth”

Still less was the cause (of the rise of National Socialism in Germany), as so many people wish to believe, a capitalist reaction against the advance of socialism.  On the contrary, the support which brought these ideas to power came precisely form the socialist camp.  It was certainly not through the bourgeoisie, but rather through the absence of a strong bourgeoisie, that they were helped to power.
- Chapter Eleven “The Socialist Roots of Nazism”

My Two Cents: There is nothing more dangerous than a society where a vibrant middle class is destroyed.  This is happening in America right now and is far and away the most concerning thing I see.  Obama’s polices, intentionally or unintentionally are consolidating power and wealth into a small elite of government officials and corporate oligarchs that want to run your life.

“Conservative Socialism” (and, in other circles, “Religious Socialism”) was the slogan under which a large number of writers prepared the atmosphere in which “National Socialism” succeeded. 
- Chapter Eleven “The Socialist Roots of Nazism”

My Two Cents: George W’s “Compassionate Conservatism” comes to mind.  There was nothing compassionate or conservative about it.  That administration ran America like a bunch of thugs using the “war on terror” as a cover.  Unfortunately, Obama is doing the same thing.

In past ages intellectuals engaged in a disinterested search for universal truths; they searched for ideals that transcended the need of the state or society in which they lived.  In recent times, however, intellectuals have become more and more the handmaiden of political and national causes.  As a result of this betrayal of the intellectuals, extremist political passions had recently become more universal, coherent, continuous, and preponderant. 
- Quote by Julien Benda from her book La Trahison des Clercs used by Hayek in Chapter Twelve “The Totalitarians in our Midst”

My Two Cents: This is a total tragedy and has clearly accelerated in modern times.

The impetus of the movement toward totalitarianism comes mainly from the two great vested interests: organized capital and organized labor.  Probably the greatest menace of all is the fact that the policies these two most powerful groups point in the same direction.
- Chapter Twelve “The Totalitarians in our Midst”

My Two Cents: Obvious parallel to today. Look who has benefited the most under Obama.  The elite use a divide and conquer strategy to keep the serfs bickering on issues away from the big picture.  The truth of the matter is much of big business (especially the large banks) and big unions are so corrupt they are both the enemy of the middle class.  We must step out of the left-right paradigm and see who is really screwing us!

The movement is, of course, deliberately planned mainly by the capitalist organizers of monopolies, and they are thus one of the main sources of this danger.  Their responsibility is not altered by the fact that their aim is not a totalitarian system but rather a sort of corporative society in which the organized industries would appear as semi-independent and self-governing “estates…”But while the entrepreneurs may well see their expectations borne out during a transition stage, it will not be long before they will find, as their German colleagues did, that they are no longer masters but will in every respect have to be satisfied with whatever power and emoluments the government will concede them.
- Chapter Twelve “The Totalitarians in our Midst”

My Two Cents: The big banks and many of our corporate leaders (Warren Buffett in particular comes to mind.  He is such a good actor he should win an Oscar) sold us out to “team up” with a corrupt government in the aftermath of the financial crisis.  They think they will be “winners” with the government.  I have my doubts.  When this thing collapses and the administration needs a scapegoat they will go down and in an epic fashion.

But if the place of the opposition, in public discussion as well as in Parliament, should become lastingly the monopoly of a second reactionary party, there would, indeed, be no hope left.
- Chapter Twelve “The Totalitarians in our Midst”

My Two Cents: This is precisely what we have today with the Republican and Democratic fake choice system.  We are offered coke or pepsi.  We must stand up and say neither.  We want the Constitution. 

Though it is natural that, as the world around us becomes more complex, our resistance grows against the forces which, without our understanding them, constantly interfere with individual hopes and plans, it is just in these circumstances that it becomes less and less possible for anyone to fully understand these forces…But they are mistaken when they carry the comparison further to argue that we must learn to master the forces of society in the same manner in which we have learned to master the forces of nature,  This is not only the path to totalitarianism but the path to the destruction of our civilization and a certain way to block further progress.  Those who demand it show by their very demands that they have not yet comprehended the extent to which the mere preservation of what we have so far achieved depends on the coordination of individual efforts by impersonal forces.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

We must now return to the crucial point –that individual freedom cannot be reconciled with the supremacy of one single purpose to which the whole society must be entirely and permanently subordinated.  The only exception to the rule that a free society must not be subjugated to a single purpose is war and other temporary disasters when subordination of almost everything to the immediate and pressing need is the price at which we preserve our freedom in the long run.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

My Two Cents: His observation about war is extremely important.  Our leaders understand this.  This is why we have been sold a never-ending “war on terror.”  That way you can always be reminded we are at war so you have to give up this right and that right because someone went on a plane with a firecracker in his underwear.  If someone wants to blow something up they will find a way.  We can’t let fear take us over so much that the government can just poke and prod us like animals everywhere we go.  Freedom in the number one priority in my opinion. 

As the glib phase runs, it must be accomplished “at any price.”  It is, in fact, in this field (the reduction of unemployment) that the fascination of vague but popular phrases like “full employment” may well lead to extremely shortsighted measures, and where the categorical and irresponsible “it must be done at all cost” of the single-minded idealist is likely to do the greatest harm.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

My Two Cents: Amazing that he used these exact phrases that you now hear so often from the administration and its minions.  These phrases are not new and we must understand that as well as the dangers those that use them pose to us.

It should never be forgotten that the one decisive factor in the rise of totalitarianism on the Continent, which is yet absent in England and America, is the existence of a large recently dispossessed middle class.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

Outside the sphere of individual responsibility there is neither goodness nor badness, neither opportunity for moral merit nor the chance of proving one’s desires to what one thinks right…A movement whose main promise is the relief from responsibility cannot but be anti-moral in its effect, however lofty the ideals to which it owes its birth.
- Chapter Thirteen “Material Conditions and Ideal Ends”

My Two Cents: Morals only exists with the freedom to make such choices. If the government imposes morals and makes the whole of humanity acts in a way the rulers deem “moral” there are no morals and the concept is dead.

It is one of the most fatal illusions that, by substituting negotiations between states or organized groups for competition for markets or for raw materials, international friction would be reduced.  This would merely put a contest of force in the place of what can only metaphorically be called the “struggle” of competition and would transfer to powerful and armed states, subject to no superior law, the rivalries which between individuals had to be decided without recourse to force.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents: Such an amazing quote.  This is precisely why we face a major war right now.  Too much power is concentrated at the top and when the elites of one nation sell out the elites of another nation which always happens at times like this, they start a war.  The elites don’t suffer the people do.  Let’s not let them do this to us.

But one has only to visualize the problems raised by economic planning of even an area such as western Europe to see that the moral bases for such an undertaking are completely lacking.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents: Western Europe would have been difficult enough!  I can’t help but think of the Euro.  What an absurd concept it was.  Be aware that the elite would like to use this crisis to bring in a global currency managed by a global central bank.  You thought the euro was bad.  This is would be the end of all economic and individual freedom on a global scale.  SDRs are just another fiat scam joke.  We must never ever agree to it.

If most people are not willing to see the difficulty, this is mainly because, consciously or unconsciously, they assume that it will be they who will settle these questions for others, and because they are convinced of their own capacity to do this justly and equitably.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents: The most dangerous people are those that think they “know best.”  This attitude is the DNA of dictators.

Planning on an international scale, even more than is true on a national scale, cannot be anything but a naked rule of force, an imposition by a small group on all the rest of that sort of standard and employment which the planners think suitable for the rest.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

What these dangerous idealists do not see is that where the assumption of a moral responsibility involves that one’s moral views should by force be made to prevail over those dominant in other communities, the assumption of such responsibility may place one in a position in which it becomes impossible to act morally. 
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents:  This is the ultimate contradiction of the idealistic planners.  Their good intentions end up creating the highest of degrees of human suffering.

It is significant that the most passionate advocates of a centrally directed economic New Order for Europe should display, like their Fabian and German prototypes, the most complete disregard for of the individuality and of the rights of small nations.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

My Two Cents: Any leader that talks of a “New Order” must be seen as potentially very dangerous.  It was used by Hitler and others often back in Hayek’s days.

We shall all be gainers if we can create a world fit for small states to live in.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

Neither an omnipotent superstate nor a loose association of “free nations” but a community of free men must be our goal.
- Chapter Fourteen “The Prospects of International Order”

Have a great long weekend,

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phaesed's picture

It's truly an exceptional book and happens to be the third book on economics I ever read. (behind Wealth of Nations and Essays on the Great Depression). Hayek was truly a great man, it's a shame that his "Pure Theory of Capital" isn't studied more closely by the vast majority of those who claim follow his ideals.

Chump's picture

I have to know: is your special brand of stupidity actually, physically painful?  If not, it definitely should be.

nmewn's picture

LOL + a gazzilion fiats.

Zina's picture

What are you all commenting about?

"Individualist censorship" made the original post disapear...

You really don't need the State to install censorship...

nmewn's picture

ZH is private property...they can do what they like in this regard...your "rights" end where theirs begin.

As it should be.

You should keep this simple fact in mind while on your quest for the socialistic utopia that lies just around the next bend on your road...someone else will be in control of your life as well as your words.


Zina's picture

The typical reaction of a histeric teabagger: everyone who don't says "amen" to his credo is blamed "a socialist", an "evil communist"...

I just have to laugh on the face of those hypocrites wich cry about the "danger to civil liberties" represented by any government intervention in the economy, but have no respect to any civil liberty when it's about people who desagree with their dogma.

The reality is that you all don't hate the government, you just hate taxes, you all just don't want to pay taxes. You want the police and the Judiciary to arrest and prosecute all that "islamic terrorists" and "illegal mexican aliens". You NEED the government, you NEED the State, you just don't want to pay any taxes to sustain it.

WaterWings's picture

De novo? Ainda bobagem.

Zina's picture

De fato, o que mais se lê nos comentários desse site é bobagem. Bobagem escrita por filhinho de mamãe que não quer pagar imposto, mas quer que a polícia esteja sempre a postos pra lhe proteger da bandidagem...

WaterWings's picture

Se temos "fractional reserve banking", porque precisamos pagar impostos? Eles podem imprimir tudo. E illusao. E nao tinhamos que pagar "income tax" antes de 1913. E esravidao.

velobabe's picture

your HOT when you talk like that, WW†

WaterWings's picture


Now I have something to think about for the weekend. Enjoy yours!

nmewn's picture

The taxes are to protect the weak from bandits my socialist friend...it doesn't work so well when the bandits collect the taxes from the poor and the middle class to split amongst themselves.

Socialism has unleashed the hounds, you'd better invest in a dog whistle...LOL.


Chump's picture

Man, it's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about or who you're talking to...

BTW, I fully support a central command economy and elite ruling political body...as long as I'm in charge, muthafucka.

phaesed's picture

lol.... I'll freely admit that I'm a socialist.... But then again I also believe the markets should be free and untampered with... something that will never happen in a falsely entitled "capitalist" society who's leaders are supported, molded, and placed into office by few individuals that control the vast majority of the wealth.


Q: When's a bribe not really a bribe?

A: When it's a political campaign contribution.


When the masses remain subject to the whims of a few individuals who are isolated from much of the misery that plagues us "little folk", there will never be freedom. We are all slaves to their influence... the shame is that most are perfectly happy being little worker drones.




ps... oh and by socialist I don't mean communist

nmewn's picture


"ps... oh and by socialist I don't mean communist"

A pregnant socialist always gives birth to a bouncing baby communist...and you can quote me on that ;-)

phaesed's picture



I'm glad to see everything is black and white for you.... thank god we have a two party system eh?

nmewn's picture

Got a rise out of a socialist government bond analyst...how...unexpected...LOL.

Yes a two party system has become a hinderance to true liberty...and yes everything is black and white with me on fiscal issues.

There is no grey in my mind that W came in as a social conservative and left as a conservative socialist...pronouncing "we're all Keynesian's now." The alternative was less appealing.

There is also no grey in my mind about what the public (the taxpaying public) are facing with this group from Chicago.

There is also no grey in my mind that the public at large is pissed off at being continually sodomized and asked to like it by those we place in positions of responsibilty.

Now, you may think this bodes well (politically) for socialism...I disagree...capital, real capital, earned capital, that is, after taxed earnings (property in my view) is moving to safety outside of paper markets.

You may think, as you do, being a "securities analyst", that the black hole of a central bank buying government (note, governments, not mine) debt obligations is some resplendent eureka moment of modern man banking brilliance, but it is an old story littering the landscape of history..Spain & Greece being the most recent examples.

But tell me, will a socialist government offer bread and bullets to fight against the nations creditors when they come-a-calling??? A mercenary army only fights until they tire of stale bread and shedding their blood. As noted above, a generous majority of the population did not like being fiscally brutalized, conscription orders from the top perhaps??? I would advise a limited amount of ammunition though.

Will they seize the means of production of the bread and bullets (insert appropriate martial music here) and force labor to produce for the government??? This seems like our bouncing baby doesn't it???

No, I believe I'll stand by my quote, and append to it...a socialist always gives birth to a bouncing baby communist or fascist.

Dark reflections to be sure...at other times we could no doubt share a ball game and a beer...but not right now. This is serious...and so am I.



MyFriendMises's picture

First big laugh of the day.  That is why I love this site.

Clayton Bigsby's picture

you have done well, my son - if I rip this off, you will be credited...

Miss Expectations's picture

I'll tell you this much, it is to me.  Unfortunately, I think it makes him feel good.  Yikes.

phaesed's picture

you mean the special brand of stupidity that caused me to buy TLT calls over the past 4 months?


Nahhh.... that's not painful until I wake up the morning after I spend some profits going out drinking.

*yawn* Sorry chump, my fight against the treasury shorts won despite being one of a handful of analysts out there who actually understand central banking mechanics.... you know, the stuff that people are too lazy to learn.

But my point was that Hayek often went against the "Austrian" theory propogated by Mises and as such he holds a very certain and special place in "Austrian" theory. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clever enough to dumb it down for ya chump.

Oh and one thing.... have you ever read both Prices and Production and The Pure Theory of Capital?

Compare the reasoning Hayek uses to Mises line of thought.... there are some very stark contrasts.

Chump's picture

Unfortunately, Zina's original post in which he blathered and drooled for approximately 5 whole sentences disappeared.  That was the post I replied to, certainly not yours.


phaesed's picture

ahhhh okay then, I'm sorry for the hostile/defensive tone then :)



Chump's picture

No apologies necessary.  In fact, I'm surprised you weren't more hostile.  Cheers back at ya.

nmewn's picture

I believe the homophobic phrase of "teabagger" may be a little over used by leftist elitist snobs driving around in their Volvo's...just as the the right over uses the example of a small minority of commie anarchist's who don bandana's and run around throwing rocks through windows to point out an end to civilization as we know it.

The "teabaggers" are not for an end to government...they are for restraining an out of control government led by those who are defined as oligarchs on ZH everyday. Are you saying Mike is a "teabagger", an anarchist or something in between???


Gully Foyle's picture


Show me the Teabagger manifesto. I think each group/section/cell whatever they term themselves, makes it up as the go along.

For example.


Horowitz the Flim Flam Man Among the Teabaggers


I had less fun than Voltaire and am not a philosopher but a certain curiosity found me at a dinner a few evenings ago held by the Albuquerque Tea Party featuring as guest speaker the right’s own aging billy goat, David Horowitz. Flim flam man, wannabe Borscht Belt entertainer and pint-sized demagogue, Horowitz held forth for two hours in a room at the Albuquerque Convention Center, thoroughly teabagging the credulous crowd of middle-aged and older white folks, ordinary Americans justifiably outraged at the mendacity, hypocrisy and sheer elitist arrogance of their own government, whether Republican or Democrat, and who, to their credit, are actively seeking avenues for a redress of grievances.

The gathering was overwhelmingly white—no African Americans and very few even moderately brown faces. Unusual was a tall young man who looked Central Asian, a Pakistani, or Indian, maybe, certainly not a Muslim. Horowitz expelled half his verbal gas hatefully excoriating the Muslim religion, which the crowd seemed to accept routinely and in some cases with vociferous approval. The vibe in the room when Horowitz talked about immigration and the “corrupt culture” of Mexico (“culture,” not “system,” or even “culture of corruption”) was palpably ugly. Our waiters and waitress were mostly brown skinned people who served us impassively. When Horowitz praised the “great governor of Arizona” the crowd cheered heartily.

I sat at a table with five others, all white, middle class, elderly, perfectly nice people. The guy on my left, Dan, was a retired electrical engineer from Sandia National Labs who moved to Albuquerque in 1953 when many of the city’s main streets were still unpaved. I tried engaging him but he was so tight-lipped that after a while I gave up. Maybe it was the years working in the labs. He was a lifelong Republican and not normally active politically but moved by the present situation to check out the Tea Party. The guy on my right, Tony, was a long time Albuquerque resident, originally from Corning, New York, home of Corning Glass Works, the folks who brought you Pyrex. Tony was an affable, remarkably fit guy for someone in his mid seventies, more interested in talking sports than politics. Next to him was his wife, Joan, demure and pleasant-looking, probably 20 years younger than Tony, the most outwardly political of the group. Her main concern was education and the leftists who control it, a big theme of Horowitz’s.

This was a pretty dull table and a pretty dull gathering but there were pockets of true believers scattered around the room, including one woman near me who intoned loud amens as Horowitz spoke and one large, powerful-voiced woman who, during the Q & A, vowed to defend the country from progressives. It takes a lot to get the older set worked up, which is one reason fear of the Tea Party is likely exaggerated. No flesh-rending Brown Shirt brigade this group, though younger, more passionate recruits remains a possibility.

At the end of the function I asked some questions of one of the event’s organizers, a pleasant middle-aged man a bit uptight in his responses, which he formulated carefully. One of the founders of the Albuquerque Tea Party (which, by the way, has one of Jasper Johns’ flag paintings as its website background, a curiosity), his main concerns were the wastes of taxation, which he sought to prove in a brief mental exercise taught by one of his economics professors, government intrusion on privacy (he disliked the Patriot Act, which he thought Obama would eliminate or at least weaken, alas) and the strengthening of the free enterprise system, which he felt was under unrelenting attack by progressives. When I asked him to define progressivism, he said it was the most dangerous of all movements, lumping socialism, statism, Nazism, fascism, FDR and Woodrow Wilson together in a toxic brew lapping at the shores of liberty. He was nervous throughout, asking at one point if I was recording his words. Only up here, I said, pointing to my head.

The main attraction though was Horowitz, the awareness and pleasure of which he barely concealed standing in front of the silver-haired rubes gazing in polite if not rapt attention. He is a man comfortable with his notoriety and reputation as one of the right’s leading intellectuals, especially in front of a crowd he obviously feels superior to. After all, this was Albuquerque. He hammered the Democratic Party relentlessly, a pathetically easy target, deservedly despised by sensible people for their mealy-mouthed hypocrisy. But for Horowitz the evil of the Democrats lies much deeper. Forget liberals, he said, waving his arms, these guys are communists. Communists! Collectivists whose dangerous messianic beliefs control academia, the media and even the Pentagon! Surely, I thought, as Horowitz carried on, the guy can’t be serious. Islam is the only religion, he railed, that makes martyrs out of mass murderers. The males go to heaven and consort with 34 Virginians. Virginians! Was he making a joke? Does he know something about Virginians that I don’t? Maybe.

Horowitz is a curious cat. A guy who was raised by communist parents and spent his youth involved in leftist causes who now goes at it with equal fervor from the other side. He is probably not a self-hating Jew, but he could be a self-hating communist. Nothing, certainly not facts, will deter him. Nidal Hasan killed 39 people at Fort Hood, he said. The number, still horrific, was 12. Maybe he was confusing him with Baruch Goldstein, but then, that was only 29. There was nothing in Palestine except “three strips of desert” and the scattered remnants of a dead Turkish empire when the state of Israel was created in 1948. “There were no Palestinians!” a woman in the audience shouted when he said this. “Amen!” said the woman at the table next to me.

Horowitz assured the audience repeatedly that he knew what was really going on with the communists because he’d been there and seen the light—a special envoy, as it were. He and a few others were “second thoughters.” He talked about the Manichaeism of the Democrat/communists and how they saw the world in dangerous, simplistic, religious terms. Earlier in his talk, to get things warmed up, he’d said the Democrats were the serpent in the Garden of Eden, wanting to be as gods. The audience loved this. His two great enemies are the Muslim world, determined to wipe Israel and the United States off the map, and the Democrat/communists, infiltrating every corner of American life. Horowitz seemed genuinely passionate about the communist stuff but he didn’t look as menacing as McCarthy. No firm numbers on the infiltration either, though liberal academia, another bête noire, is filled to the brim.

The Tea Party is not a dangerous or powerful movement but, as others have pointed out, prone to capture or influence by venomous oddballs like Horowitz with more clearly delineated right wing agendas. There is too much muddled thinking, lack of focus and old age to solidify into a strong independent movement. What likely will happen is that their angry, confused energy will be swallowed by an increasingly right wing Republican Party, the Patraeuses and Palins, resulting in a stronger, deadlier version of business as usual. The Teabaggers have at least one thing right: our present government is an enemy. But like any gusher without real direction, they’ll likely as not get swept away by a stronger, loopier current.

chumbawamba's picture

It's cheap shit like this that divides a people.  Why do you let yourself fall for this nonsense?

I like Counterpunch as they've published hard-hitting journalism that mainstream wouldn't touch with Dan Rather's dick, but they also leave a lot of chaff in with the wheat.  This is chaff.

If you took the minimal time to look into David Horowitz's background, you'd discover that he's a charlatan who opportunistically gloms on to whatever avant garde political movement is prevalent at any given time.  He was a leftist in the 1960s, running with the Black Panthers, then eventually turned "conservative" when the political winds blew him there, then a neocon when that became the flavor of the day, and now he's a apparently a so-called "teabagger".  He's also a raging zionist douche.


Quit making an ass of yourself.  This article is about transcending the false divide between "Democrats" and "Republicans", and yet you come here and try to keep the illusion of division alive and well.  Fie, you shit-eating monkey.

I am Chumbawamba.

DeltaDawn's picture

I read David Horowitz's autobiography. Wish Obama would think for himself and leave his red diaper baby belief system in the trash. I admire him greatly. Forming your opinion from a wikipedia entry, Chumba? Read his lengthy, well-written book and get back to me. Just because his ears are open to the "Death to Jews" message does not make him a raging zionist either.

Unscarred's picture


'Fie'?  Tell me that's a tipo.

Gully Foyle's picture


I think you should learn to read. I have posted before about how the Buchanons were sent in to destroy the Reform party. Others have posted the same regarding Palin and Teabaggers.

I think you are one of those kneejerk dogmatists who glory in attacking everyone else while disregarding the truth of their politics.



Ripped Chunk's picture

Newsvine is really your true calling Gully. Heed it's call

tony bonn's picture

david whorowitz is a cia asset/agent.....his conversion from radical liberal hippie to neocon was as fake as pamela sue anderson's boobs....he writes for cia front organization national review.....he is a complete whore....

WaterWings's picture

Thanks, Chumba. I saw that post and thought, "Hmm, I don't know if I want to read this...let's see what the peanut gallery has to say."

Chumba 4 Supreme Dictator!


Separately...Tyler! WTF! Why do we have disjointed/disappearing comment-scrubbing (?) bullshit going on up-thread!

nmewn's picture

Gosh...all these positive vibes from Volvo drivers protecting their "statist" quo interests...LOL.

What could possibly be keeping our sides apart??? ;-)

Treeplanter's picture

As usual, race is a big deal for leftists.  At the moment a lot of black people still have hope for Obama.  Based on his father's race, you betcha. However, there are quite a few black people among the most active Tea Partiers.  They don't buy the entitlement trap nor the affirmative action scam.  Teabagger is used not only as a demeaning insult but to divert attention from the Sons of Liberty's defiance of our British overlords in the most famous Tea Party of all.  Our source of inspiration. David Horowitz is no flim flam man.  He has experience and knowledge on his side.  He does get flustered in debates with idiots and too often his emotion erupts into exchanging insults instead of using his skills.  The best thing going for us is our Constitution.  A lot of our problems stem from ignoring it and misreading it.  Just staying true to its requirement that we use honest money would have been a huge help.  The decentralizing tenants of the 10th Amendment would have kept taxes and power closer to citizens rather than being concentrated in an imperial government in DC.  Anyway, Lord Obama has managed to create a huge bipartisan opposition to National Socialism.  And a nice spike in gun sales.  Credit where's it due.

AnAnonymous's picture

Made me laugh. The few black people amongst the most active Tea parties do not buy the entitlement trap nor the affirmative action scam.

Just for that, they should get their asses kicked out of any movement dedicated to convey actual knowledge.

How does it come that as US citizens they are not aware that racism has worked very well? And what best that racism as an entitlement and affirmative action program?

These guys dont know their US history for sure.

pan-the-ist's picture

How dare you show up on my plantation and take my slaves?  I own them.  People have no respect for private property...

Ripped Chunk's picture

You miss the good old days pan, don't you?

Mercury's picture

From what I understand of the mechanics of it all "teabagging" isn't necessarily a homosexual act.  And personally I see no shame in being phobic or at least apprehensive about being on the business end of something like that.

Chump's picture

HAHAHA.  Wait, which is the business end??  Wait, don't answer that!

Conrad Murray's picture

I never understood the media's fascination with attempting to use that term as derogatory.  I'm quite sure all of the "teabaggers" laugh their asses off at the "teabagees".

Clayton Bigsby's picture

I'd rather be a "teabagger" and a "teabaggee" - I know it's a personal preference, but I'm just sayin...

mojine's picture

Don't bother asking Zina what She/He/It is saying.

I've never seen a coherent thought emanate from that troll.

Zina's picture

Is the world coherent?

Is reality coherent?

I'm just a nihilist

Zina's picture

"The teabaggers are not for an end to government..."


So the BIG problem is: government for WHO? Government doing what? Defending what interests?