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More on Companies Fleeing DB Pensions

Leo Kolivakis's picture





 

Via Pension Pulse.

A follow-up to my previous comment on Canadian companies crossing the "pension Rubicon". Cynthia Vukets of the Toronto Star reports, Companies flee defined-benefit pensions:

Financial
officers are increasingly switching private sector pensions from
defined-benefit to defined-contribution plans, even with the economy on
the upswing, according to a study released Wednesday.

 

“The
2008 crisis may have been the final straw for senior finance officers”
said David Service, director of investment services at Towers Watson.

“While
plan sponsors may not be able to afford to make changes right now,
many are working on strategies to de-risk or even exit when the
financial position of their plans improve.”

 

Tower
Watson’s 2011 Pension Risk Survey, which collected information from
150 defined-benefit plan sponsors, indicates that 51 per cent of
private sector defined-benefit plan respondents have now converted
their plans to defined-contribution arrangements — up from 42 per cent
in 2008.

 

“The
defined-benefit plan has come under considerable attack because
there’s been tremendous pressure to shift to defined contribution
plans, which are seen by employers to be more predictable,” said
Toronto Centre Liberal MP Bob Rae.

 

Rae was addressing the Conference Board of Canada’s Summit on the Future of Pensions on Wednesday.

 

Defined-contribution
plans pay out on retirement according to the investment’s performance,
while defined-benefit plans promise a set monthly amount calculated
according to a retiree’s average salary and years of work.
Defined-contribution plans tend to be less risky for employers, but
depend on the worker’s ability to manage his or her own investment
portfolio.

 

Although
the economy is improving, the Towers Watson study showed senior
executives are more pessimistic about pension funding. According to the
survey, 56 per cent believe the funding crisis will persist for the
long term, compared with 34 per cent polled in 2008, before the onset
of the recession.

 

“We
have our work cut out for us to try to deliver a better return on
assets than market value,” said Leo J. de Bever, CEO and CIO of the
Alberta Investment Management Corporation.

 

He
said pension fund returns have been “barely positive” over the past 10
years and doesn’t expect much better over the next five, adding
Canadian pensions will be more difficult to fund as they come to
maturity in the near future.

 

Rae said pension reform is now critical for Canadians.

 

“People
talk about something when they have to . . . On the pension issue,
we’re getting up to that point,” he said, adding 75 per cent of
Canadians eligible for an RRSP don’t have one.

 

“Those who can save, do; those who can’t save, don’t,” he said.

 

Rae,
62, joked that “60 is the new 40,” but was serious when he urged a
discussion of public policy to address the fact that Canadians no
longer follow the traditional path of graduating from school, getting a
job, contributing to a pension and retiring at age 65.

 

Contract
work, career changes and a longer, more active retirement have changed
what Canadians need from a pension. In addition, two out of every
three Canadians have no workplace pensions and 1.6 million seniors are
living on less than $15,000 a year in government support, says seniors
advocacy group CARP.

 

“There
is, I think, a very strong consensus that we need to continue to focus
on the needs of people who are poor and people who are struggling,”
Rae said. “We have a gap in our coverage for people.”

 

The
Liberals and NDP have promised to add $700 million to the Guaranteed
Income Supplement, with the Conservatives proposing a $300 million
annual increase. On the Canada Pension Plan, the NDP would double the
CPP and QPP, while the Liberals would gradually increase defined CPP
benefits and allow for a new, voluntary supplement to the CPP, called
the Secure Retirement Option. The Conservatives have proposed
defined-contribution, pooled, registered pension plans that would be
privately run.

I thought Leo de Bever's
comments were interesting. Pension fund returns have been “barely
positive” over the past 10 years and he doesn’t expect much better
over the next five, adding Canadian pensions will be more difficult to
fund as they come to maturity in the near future.

Leo de Bever is also worried about what happens when the music stops. In a recent FT article, Canadians get creative with infrastructure acquisitions,
de Bever said that AIMCo's 50 per cent stake in Autopista central, a
motorway in Santiago, Chile, made sound sense because some
infrastructure funds still carry 2-and-20 style fees (2 per cent of
assets and 20 per cent of profits) but are not throwing up the returns
of private equity funds. He's very fussy with infrastructure deals, picking
his spots carefully.

Now, getting back to the topic of Canadian
companies fleeing DB plans. As I wrote in my last comment, I believe
that most Canadian companies shouldn't be in the defined benefit pension
business at all. Instead, companies should transfer this risk to
existing and new public sector pension plans and have professional
pension fund managers manage these retirement funds.

I want to clarify something. I know of private companies with excellent
DB plans. Right here in Montreal, CN Investment Division, which for many
years was run by Tullio Cedrashi
(now run by Russell Hiscock), is an example of a top-performing private
DB plan managing billions in assets. It's arguably one of the best DB
plans in Canada with a long, stellar track record. The people at CN
Investment Division are excellent pension fund managers who consistently
deliver top decile performance.

But there is only one CN
Investment Division. Most Canadian companies have terrible DB plans
which are severely underfunded. It's hardly surprising to see them opt
out of DB plans and switch over to DC plans, placing the retirement onus
entirely on employees. This is why I believe we should scrap private DB
plans altogether, and create new public DB plans to manage these
assets. Instead of transferring over the risk to banks and insurance companies,
getting raped on fees in the process, companies would transfer the risk
to Crown corporations with world class pension governance standards.
You have to compensate these pension fund managers properly and even
hire the people at CN Investment Division to manage these entities (why
not?).

Again, I believe companies should worry about their
business, not pensions. We have some of the world's best pension fund
managers in Canada who can worry about pensions. Employees need to have
the peace of mind that comes with a well managed DB plan. Period, end of
story.

Listen to Leo de Bever, he knows the challenges that lie ahead for
pension funds. Let me end by repeating something I've stated many times
before: switching over to a DC plan is a cop-out, a defeatist approach
which is not in the best interest of employees. The trend of switching
over to a DC plan will only ensure more pension poverty down the road.
It's high time Canada takes the lead in crafting better pension
policies, ensuring more people retire with dignity.

 


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Sat, 08/13/2011 - 05:43 | Link to Comment juyitrade3
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Fri, 04/08/2011 - 13:12 | Link to Comment geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

Right on Augustus

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 12:52 | Link to Comment Augustus
Augustus's picture

What the companies have come to realize is that they are simply unable to contain the risk of the defined benefit plans.  What they can do is to fund something currently - defined contribution plan.

Consider the situation where the plan assets decline because of market / economic conditions.  That is very likely to be the same time that the sponsor company is also under maximum financial stress.  When losing money on operations they cannot cough up the cash to keep the plan fully funded.

Employees will have to face realities with regard to how they plan their retirements.  It is not possible to insulate them from poor economic conditions for 50 years after they retire.  When things change the retirees will have to also make some changes.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 14:01 | Link to Comment Leo Kolivakis
Leo Kolivakis's picture

Augustus wrote: ''What the companies have come to realize is that they are simply unable to contain the risk of the defined benefit plans.  What they can do is to fund something currently - defined contribution plan.''

Augustus,

In the good years, companies were using investment gains in their pensions to pad their earnings. After 2008, they regard DB pensions as a noose around their neck. In the UK, companies are offloading their DB plan risk to banks and insurance companies who are happy to scoop it up at bargain pries and sell it higher. I don't think private companies should be switching to DC plans. Instead, create new gvt sponsored pension funds that will manage this money. In Canada, we have many examples of such entities who are doing an excellent job at managing pensions.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 15:05 | Link to Comment Yancey Ward
Yancey Ward's picture

Yes, but who holds the bag of risk in that case, Leo?  The taxpayer?  If not the taxpayer, then who?

Sat, 04/09/2011 - 12:21 | Link to Comment Yancey Ward
Yancey Ward's picture

I guess I don't get an answer.

Sun, 04/10/2011 - 14:46 | Link to Comment Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

He's too busy with name calling and personal attacks.

Sat, 04/09/2011 - 04:02 | Link to Comment Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Yancey

Leo Kockupalotis won't even admit the taxpayer contributed 100% of all pensions in the first place. He thinks public sector pensions come from the pockets of the public sector (remind us again where you think the public sector got its money from Leo?)...this dork redefines the word clueless, typical of the crones, sorry 'consultants' to Govt

Govt spends $100's of billions on consultants every year yet the defined benefit of these parasites as seen in Govt policy isn't greater than the intellect of a peanut. Reading a cut (crib) and paste Kockupalotis article it doesn't take you long to see why! 

Sat, 04/09/2011 - 08:16 | Link to Comment Leo Kolivakis
Leo Kolivakis's picture

"...the taxpayer contributed 100% of all pensions in the first place."

You're such a moron, amazingly ignorant fool! I bet you don't even know what a world with "Zero Gvt" actually entails! That's why I prefer calling you Zero Brains.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 13:40 | Link to Comment Yancey Ward
Yancey Ward's picture

+1000.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 12:49 | Link to Comment geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

Leo's title says it all " More on Companies Fleeing DB" and they are, and his last paragraph sums up his feelings---Leo does not like it. But reality is what it is for better or worse--it is part of trend wherby developed economies are declining---and all the kings horses and all the kings men cant bring defined benefit plans back again  

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 12:29 | Link to Comment Yancey Ward
Yancey Ward's picture

I have no problem with these public plans being available.  Just allow individuals to take their defined contributions and voluntarily buy into these plans.  Also, make it absolutely explicit that there is no public bailout of these plans possible.  What say you, Leo?

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 11:43 | Link to Comment sangell
sangell's picture

Like the Defined Benefit pension a 'Dignified Old Age' maybe something that fits its acronym... DOA! For most anyway.

I hear you though. Not many people are going to do well managing their own retirement fund unless Ben Bernanke can goose the market up for another 20 or 30 years.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 11:32 | Link to Comment Doubleguns
Doubleguns's picture

Accept a couple different jobs over a career and you might not qualify for shit from various DB programs at each of those companies you worked for. However your 401k stays with you as you go through a career that spans several companies.

DB's are not good for mobile workers and if your company is bought out or bankrupted you can be screwed again by a DB. Never invest your DC entirely in the company you work for, think Enron. 

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 10:31 | Link to Comment Burticus
Burticus's picture

I remember my largest client terminating and settling its defined benefit plan back in 1988.  The last DP, er, DB, plan I saw (about 8 years ago) was for a private club and we recommended they terminate it, which they did.

About the only DB plans remaining are employees of gubmint or unionized zombie legacy industries and these plans are severely un/under-funded.  Just wait until debt paper gets vaporized and stocks held by these plans are allowed to reflect the realities of depression.

I am hopeful this will wake the minion enforcers, causing them to turn on the parasite class, who will then turn on their global elite masters.  Game on.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 10:29 | Link to Comment Burticus
Burticus's picture

I remember my largest client terminating and settling its defined benefit plan back in 1988.  The last DP, er, DB, plan I saw (about 8 years ago) was for a private club and we recommended they terminate it, which they did.

About the only DB plans remaining are employees of gubmint or unionized zombie legacy industries and these plans are severely un/under-funded.  Just wait until debt paper gets vaporized and stocks held by these plans are allowed to reflect the realities of depression.

I am hopeful this will wake the minion enforcers, causing them to turn on the parasite class, who will then turn on their global elite masters.  Game on.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 10:22 | Link to Comment Bruce Krasting
Bruce Krasting's picture

DBs have taken us to one place. Underfunded pensions. It's got to end.

It would be swell if we lived in Neverland and things were simple. But we don't live there and things are not simple.

"We" have to stop making promises that "we" can't afford to make. Sorry, DBs are dead.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 11:16 | Link to Comment Leo Kolivakis
Leo Kolivakis's picture

Bruce,

Not all DB plans are underfunded and poorly managed. Wake up and stop this right-ring propaganda. DC plans in Canada cannot compete with the large DB plans. PERIOD.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 12:24 | Link to Comment Bruce Krasting
Bruce Krasting's picture

I don't much care about those DB folks up in Canada. I worry about the 50 states. Every municipality. I worry about Social Security. I worry about the military and federal government pensions too.

My bet with you? For every billion of properly funded DB plans in the US that you find I will find you 100b that are not.  Its over.

 

 

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 12:54 | Link to Comment Leo Kolivakis
Leo Kolivakis's picture

Bruce,

You have no idea of what you're talking about. I'll take the other side of your bet any day and raise you several POMOs! Stop with the fear mongering already, it's ridiculous.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 11:33 | Link to Comment Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

... The Gospel according to Saint Leo...

Leo, are you conducting a "Pension Jihad"?  Maybe you should change the name of your blog?

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 12:53 | Link to Comment Leo Kolivakis
Leo Kolivakis's picture

I'm thinking of changing it to ''Pension Prick''. -:)

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Why did you ask everyone to listen to "Leo the Beaver"?  Don't you want everyone to listen to "Leo the Greek"?

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 09:59 | Link to Comment bankruptcylawyer
bankruptcylawyer's picture

this is simple class dynamics. zero-sum competition between those seeking predictable income savings based on their wages (labor) versus those who seek to force workers to accept market rates of interest.

i read all the comments yesterday and today. this is not a complex issue. the difficulty lies in accepting that all the mumbo jumbo and jargon is just plain DOUBLE SPEAK TO CONFUSE AND DISTRACT.

if there is anything to have a discussion about it is who should make the sacrifices...the rich or the workers. this discussion usually devolves to class warfare. because realistically, there is no reasonable basis for arguing either side, there is only identity politics. 

you are either with us, or against us. 

 

then the question for labor(service sector mostly) is......would they rather burn down the financial system or make things work by giving in.  the question for the capitalists is how far can they push labor without having the roof crash on their own heads.

both sides lose everything is they don't push the other side. both sides will destroy themselves if they push the other side too hard. 

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 10:39 | Link to Comment sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

It's not between the rich and the workers. Most corporate stocks are owned by the middle class through mutual funds and pensions. In the case of GM, the owners certainly weren't the rich. Without the taxpayers getting buttreamed, both sides would have been wiped out.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 09:28 | Link to Comment Gordon Freeman
Gordon Freeman's picture

Who's the drunk in the picture?

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 09:43 | Link to Comment Robert Neville
Robert Neville's picture

I think think it's the late swimmers second cousin by marriage.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 08:44 | Link to Comment AN0NYM0US
AN0NYM0US's picture

Leo, companies are dumping DB plans because it saves money and shareholders like that. Companies have discovered that attracting and retaining employees can be accomplished without the yoke of a DB pension plan, more importantly a DB plan often attracts and retains deadwood.

 

 

 

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 11:06 | Link to Comment yabyum
yabyum's picture

Lets dump all db plans, and lets get rid of all ceo bonuses and their huge golden parachutes. Oh wait! can't have the rich bastards suffer can we.

Fri, 04/08/2011 - 09:37 | Link to Comment Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

Leo has his fingers in his ears - he can't hear you.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!