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More Illegality From The Big Banks: This Time Short Sale Fraud

Tyler Durden's picture





 

As many readers have pointed out, CNBC's Diana Olick is out with some pretty damning news of a new form of pervasive homeowner fraud, this time conducted in complicity of the very banks that yesterday were swearing up and down the FCIC hearings that they hear, see and speak no evil. Maybe such hearings should become a weekly spectacle as they now represent the only expression of Main Street's excess and growing anger, yet pushed far enough and the imminent revolt will surely become a reality. A few more incidents like this, uncovered by America's unbought journalists, may be all the straws needed to break a few CEO's backs. At least the bankers will have a few hundred billion in bonuses and some Textron private jets to help with their head start to non-extradition treaty countries.

Back to Ms. Olick's article:

In order for a short sale with two loans to happen, the second lien holder has to drop the lien.

If
they don't, and there's no short sale, the home goes to foreclosure and
the first lien holder gets the house because second liens are
subordinated debt to the primary loan.

In
short, the second lien holder gets nothing. In order to get the second
lien holder to drop the lien, the first lien holder generally
negotiates some partial payment to the second lien holder. The second
lien holder doesn't have to agree, but more and more are doing so.

As Diana points out, there is nothing illegal with this set up. Where there is illegality, however, is in the following situation:

Since many second lien holders are getting very little, they are now
allegedly requesting money on the side from either real estate agents
or the buyers in the short sale. When I say "on the side," I mean in
cash, off the HUD settlement statements, so the first lien holder
doesn't see it.

"They are pretty clear and pretty upfront about the fact that if the
first lender knows they are getting paid, the first lender will kill
the short sale," says Brandt. "So these second lenders are asking for
the payments off the closing documents, off the HUD statement, usually
in a cashiers check prior to closing. Once they receive that payment,
they will allow the short sale to go through, which according to RESPA
laws and the lawyers that we have spoken to on the topic is not legal."

Most agents wouldn't go on the record with me, for fear of retribution
by the banks with whom they have to work every day. But one agent,
Kayte Gentry, of Keller Williams Integrity First Realty, was brave
enough to blow the whistle.

"I think it's wrong, and I think somebody needs to hold them
accountable, and every time I lose a house in foreclosure because of
this, it hurts my client," says Gentry matter-of-factly. "Aside from
being illegal and a violation of RESPA, it's immoral and truly it's
just sad for the client that it's hurting."

The next time Jamie Dimon is discussing his record quarterly earnings, maybe he can distinguish between how much of his profit was legal and illegal: at this point it is all becoming a blur:

"The big banks that have recently made this
request, specifically payments outside of the closing statement have
been Citi Mortgage and JP Morgan Chase."

JP Morgan Chase simply answered, "No Comment," when I relayed the charge to their media representative.

Bank of America denied the practice to CNBC in a written statement:

"Bank
of America enforces a policy that all disbursements are documented on
the settlement statement for short sales. When we are servicing a first
mortgage with a second lien held by another investor, if the second
lien holder asks for off-HUD payments, we will not approve the
transaction (if we have knowledge of it). It is also against Bank of
America’s policy to accept off-HUD payments on its second liens."

Citi 's reply was a bit more complicated:

“We
work very hard to help distressed homeowners find solutions for their
financial challenges. In our attempt to amicably resolve the debt, we
will generally negotiate a reduced settlement with the homeowner in
order to release a second lien. Unlike some lenders who refuse to
reduce the payoffs on second liens, we choose to reduce the payoff
amounts in some situations to assist the borrower. We do not provide
instructions to settlement agents on how to fill out the settlement
statement or any other closing documents, and we certainly do not
require settlement agents or any other parties to violate applicable
laws."

"When
we confront the lenders and tell them that this request is illegal and
a violation of RESPA, they tell us it's been cleared through legal and
they don't care. Do it anyway," charges Gentry.

And the smoking gun that apparently nobody in the regulatory enforcement arm of the entire U.S. of A. seems to care about:

I personally heard a recording of a phone
conversation between a short sale real estate agent and a second lien
lender, during which the second lien lender clearly asked for cash
outside of the settlement and threatened to kill the deal without it.

The real estate agent was rightly concerned and reluctant (the
recording was given to me by Brandt who got it from the agent. The
agent would provide no information on the lender, for fear of
retribution
):

AGENT: Well yes, I don’t want to lose my license, go to jail, I mean, I have to sign…

LENDER:
You're not going to lose your license - we have plenty of realtors who
do this, who actually understand how this whole process goes - and they
realize that OK, if I want to get this done, this will take place."

I
contacted the Treasury Department, HUD, FINCEN (Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network) and the Federal Trade Commission, and none of
their representatives could tell me of any active investigation into
this. The folks at HUD said they'd be very interested to see my story.

The problem with vigilante justice is that if the proper channels that are supposed to maintain legality and order in transactions of this nature fail, then people will, sooner or later, decide to take matters into their own hands. The amount of criminality from Wall Street was at least marginal, and involved very complex financial products: if you tried explaining it to Joe Sixpack, they would drift off by the second sentence. However, crimes of this nature are much simpler, and easier to fathom by just about all 300 million Americans who are certainly not big fans of Wall Street.

At this point the financial oligarchy is really playing with fire. For their own sake, we hope they take control of some of this rampant illegal activity that has seemingly gripped every aspect of our lives, with the very blessing of the TBTF, who only exist courtesy of taxpayer generosity. And if the SEC, Treasury Dept, HUD, FINCEN, FTC, and whoever else merely pretends to uphold the law, are unable to do anything about increasingly more glaring crimes conducted by the "select few", the time before Main Street finally arises and decides to provide its own version of vigilante justice, will not be too far off.

 


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Fri, 01/15/2010 - 17:43 | Link to Comment bugs_
bugs_'s picture

This could be it.  Fraud by the bank.  Tax fraud by

the second lien holder.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:16 | Link to Comment rangerider
rangerider's picture

Kayte Gentry is absolutely correct in my experience .....

the second lienholder of abt $100k may block a short sale many months .....

while holding out for a few k$ more, where they would get nothing in a F/C .....

and some second L/H demand full payment before signing off ....

     http://moveyourmoney.info/ 

 

 

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 10:00 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sat, 01/16/2010 - 13:43 | Link to Comment Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

Bankruptcy Court. This is yet another reason why Bankruptcy Courts should permit cram downs of mortgages on owner occupied homes similar to all other real estate assets.

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 23:02 | Link to Comment Fat Bob
Fat Bob's picture

Cram downs also breach legalities. Why don't we all just get together and rob the banks? Who's in? I'm tired of this sh!t mess already, we had a big chance to have a genuine cleanse of the system, and now all we are left with is garbage. Plain and simple.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 14:46 | Link to Comment seventree
seventree's picture

IRS? Very possibly. It would be instructive to know how these money orders were reported as income.

If they were reported accurately that would be admission of an illegal act. Reported falsely or not at all is tax fraud. And since Switzerland's surrender, and with other havens under attack, it is getting harder to simply hide significant amounts of cash.

This is how Al Capone and many since have been brought down. It isn't necessary to trace the source of unreported cash, or to prove that a crime was commited, only that it was not reported -- and again if it was not obtained legally there is no way to do that.

This is a situation where the IRS's legendary appetite for revenue could be an advantage. Once aroused they are hard to stop.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 17:49 | Link to Comment ReallySparky
ReallySparky's picture

That is just jacked up.  This piece will be just like what happened with the Mortgage Broker whistle blowing, the FBI and HUD will take months or years to prosocute this deal.  The fastest thing the Gov could do would be to do simple public service announcements on TeeVee, perhaps the reporter on this story could get her network to do it gratious, that would surely make them look good in the eyes of the common man.  This crap is probably sprung on the realtors and buyers right before the closing, everybody packed up, realtor already spent the commission, title company work completed, and they have everybody by the ya-ya's.  Public service announcements best way to educate Joe Sixpack.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:07 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:43 | Link to Comment Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Cynical and probably accurate.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 09:35 | Link to Comment MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

Bank Run Bitches!!!

Bank Run Bitches!!!

Bank Run Bitches!!!

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 17:55 | Link to Comment Harbourcity
Harbourcity's picture

Hell, the US government lies, cheats and steals - why not the populace??!?

 

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 11:11 | Link to Comment berated
berated's picture

I think this is one of many critical points emerging from this whole mess (as if there weren't enough already). How much more rampant will individual fraud become (we've kinda always assumed it was there from the finanicial institutions) as increasingly more folks assume everyone else is trying to lie, cheat and steal? People will begin to rationalize their own fraud because "they just *know* everyone else does it." In fact, we should expect to see previously honest people commit fraud preemptively before they lose to the other guy--because that's becoming the new norm.

 

 

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 23:50 | Link to Comment SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

There is a simple fact in play now: the last honest man will be prey to everyone else, and everyone knows it.  When taken in combination with that ever-popular "It is insanity to continue to do the same thing while expecting different results", it requires no imagination at all to see what's happening and what's next.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:00 | Link to Comment john_connor
john_connor's picture

Just send the evidence to Darrell Issa and Alan Grayson.  Something will get done.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 09:37 | Link to Comment MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

Grayson says nice things... and have hope, yet see little change. When he forces a full Fed Audit, or at least an audit of the gold, THEN i shall be a believer. Until then, all talk and no HARD ACTION due to Grayson.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:03 | Link to Comment Art Vandelay
Art Vandelay's picture

Re: the penultimate paragraph - that's not the "problem" of vigilante justice, it's the "beauty" of vigilante justice. The "problem" of vigilante justice is that it's just about all we have left.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:06 | Link to Comment pros
pros's picture

 

The banks and the U.S. government they control view private citizens as dupes to be manipulated and fleeced...I regret to say that it goes all the way to Obama (I voted for him, btw).

 

 

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:07 | Link to Comment Rainman
Rainman's picture

No wonder short sales are a time consuming nightmare. The seconds want a piece out of the firsts and there's under the table footsie going on to boot.

It will take forever to clean up this friggin' mess.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:08 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sat, 01/16/2010 - 17:39 | Link to Comment dhengineer
dhengineer's picture

Sure, they could fall back on the typical "rogue trader" story, and blame it on a few people, but they would still have to curtail the activity, one way or another.  If it continued despite spending a bundle fighting the guilty verdicts up to the Supreme Court, they would be seen as dirty as ever, and new charges would be brought against them as more and more instances were uncovered later.  Either way, this "income" stream will be curtailed or choked off.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:12 | Link to Comment Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

"Then they began to feed on each other"  

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:23 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Good. I hope they kill each other and die off.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:40 | Link to Comment deadhead
deadhead's picture

Okay, Secretary of HUD, Shaun Donovan, we are calling you out on this one...let's get cracking on this along with  IG Kenneth Donohue and I would suggest Mr. Holder, our Attorney General, get very, very closely involved with this one.

Folks, I've seen these guys bust a small time mortgage banker for giving away athletic event tickets (yes, that is a violation of RESPA) and they never hesitated to be all over the title insurance companies.  Let's see if these cats got the stones to go after the big boys.

By the way, let's not pin it on some low level pinhead, somebody up the food chain has to be able to authorize the acceptance of money to make these kind of transactions happen.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:51 | Link to Comment ghostfaceinvestah
ghostfaceinvestah's picture

Donovan is too busy adding up the losses on the FHA portfolio, see pages 11-13, good stuff.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/hsg/comp/rpts/com/09nov_ind.pdf

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:56 | Link to Comment deadhead
deadhead's picture

didn't Stevens say recently that FHA is okey dokey and no taxpayer bailout will be needed?

The only question I have on FHA is if the Obama admin can stave it off until after the mid terms...I'm sure they will be able to accomplish that.

Thanks Ghost.

 

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 17:45 | Link to Comment dhengineer
dhengineer's picture

The best way is to pin it on some low-level plebe, and then lean on him (or her) to roll the next level up.  Threaten the little guys, offer significant plea bargains, and watch the snitching accelerate.  In any of these banking organizations, there may be 50 guys in the executive suite, but thousands down on the street level.  Threaten some low-level manager with 10 years in Attica, and you'd be surprized at the amount of information that will be forthcoming.  If and when that happens, the executive bathrooms will be awash with gourmet-level puke as the big boys realize that the grim reaper is getting closer and closer, and they can feel the breeze from the scythe...

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:53 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 21:12 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 18:54 | Link to Comment deadhead
deadhead's picture

I have 2 items to mention to ZHers:

1. Diana Olick is probably the only journalist at CNBC who consistently writes objectively and is not part of the cheerleading gang (Rick Santelli being the other notable person).  She is an Emmy award winning journalist. 

2. I think it is very important that we give a huge "thank you" to Kayte Gentry, of Keller Williams Integrity First Realty for having the courage and fortitude to come out publicly and say this.  I suspect Kayte will catch alot of shit from some corners and Kayte should be invited to contact ZH at any time to report on any crap that she gets because at least ZH has the stones to call out those that might give Kayte a hard time. 

Thanks for bringing this out on ZH Tyler.

 

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 21:53 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 01/17/2010 - 10:27 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Be sure to tell Ron and crew to keep your eyes peeled for suspicious visitors that might be considering retaliation.

Thanks for stepping forward.

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 14:04 | Link to Comment deadhead
deadhead's picture

I'm delighted that you responded Kayte and commend you again for your courage.  I know that it is not an easy thing to speak out but you have done the right thing.

I urge you to share whatever you have with the authorities, even sending the info directly to Shaun Donovan at HUD or Atty General Holder.  Make sure you contact your congress person as a means of protecting yourself and being on the record.

If you need support, I would strongly encourage you to contact Tyler Durden or Marla Singer at Zero Hedge (tips at zerohedge dot com) as this blog is very widely read and the only way to keep the bad guys at bay is to expose them. 

I hope any ZHers in Arizona would consider sending their business to Kayte as her courage and fortitude deserve our support. 

Please keep us informed of your progress and be strong knowing that you have done the correct thing.  The truth ultimately wins out.

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 15:19 | Link to Comment Amish FinEng
Amish FinEng's picture

Reading the various posting here I see you have a deep admiration for twisted hypocrites.

You must be an ex-banker.

Countrywide or IndyMac exec? Musician based in Santa Monica? Do you have any magical indicator for sale?

How close am I?

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 16:03 | Link to Comment deadhead
deadhead's picture

I simply don't understand where you are trying to go with this Amish.

I've no admiration for hypocrites.  I prefer the truth.

 

Mon, 01/18/2010 - 15:47 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Yeah, definitely try ZH first. The new posturing for increased "accountability" isn't a good thing. "Sorry lady, State Secret."

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/September/09-ag-1013.html

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 09:35 | Link to Comment MeTarzanUjane
MeTarzanUjane's picture

Funny how the smart people here overlook how complicit Realtors are in Real Estate bubbles and crashes.

The questionable value-add partners who themselves slither like snakes.

Oh, look at me. I have Integrity. I am different. Laughable.

Where was the voice of our little princess do-good'er when the bubble was inflating. Shouting out objections about crooked property appraisers, and boiler room mortgage processors?

It is the job of a Realtor to inflate real estate values.

This article displays a hypocritical effort. Realtors eat, sleep, and dream about bubbles. How to start them, inflate them, and re-inflate them.

The Queen of Queen Creek. Starting @ 1:30 - 2:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kow1w5Rgl0w
"Unbelievable". Yea right. You knew what you were doing. You knew it was unsustainable and would eventually hurt people. Yet you continued.

This is an attempt by the snakes to manipulate the mobsters. FAIL.

Keller Williams is as much a part of the problem as ZH is part of the solution.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 19:19 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Banks probably trying to grab a few extra thousand out of the Realtors pockets.  Everyone wants to spend the Realtors Dollars.

Like they work for free.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 19:21 | Link to Comment JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

How do they bookkeep these payments? Donation?

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 19:28 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

hookers and blow..  it never gets to the books

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:17 | Link to Comment deadhead
deadhead's picture

By the way, let's not pin it on some low level pinhead, somebody up the food chain has to be able to authorize the acceptance of money to make these kind of transactions happen.

my answer from above in terms of bank employee involvement.  your question as to how it is booked needs to be answered.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:21 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

I would not be surprised if Ben Bernanke himself gave some sort of under-the-table approval for such activities.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 19:23 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

And yes, Realtor rebates are illegal.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 19:53 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Will the moral police now please come out of their holes and tell me that I need to be a good boy and pay all my debts to the big banks? HAHAHAHHAHAAAHAHAHAAA!!!!

DEFAULT ON ALL YOUR DEBTS TO THE BANKS. PERIOD. IF YOU HAVE SOME BALLS, AND DON'T WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO GROW UP TO BE SLAVES IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, JOIN THE WAR AGAINST THE BANKERS.

JUST SAY NO. WE WILL NOT PAY ONE GODDAMN CENT TO ANY OF THE BANKS.

AND JAMIE DIMON, YOU CAN KISS MY ASS.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:02 | Link to Comment ghostfaceinvestah
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:14 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Yeah man, I actually went one step further and converted all of my cash into Gold - I just keep barely enough for daily expenses - that's it, plus it saves me from wasting money on worthless things I don't really need. All my spare cash goes into Gold/Silver. I have become an FRN exterminator - whenever I see some, they get converted in Gold - LOL! Can't convert those worthless pieces of shit into real money soon enough. At this point I don't even trust the currency, what to say of the banking system. Let's just say if the bank is in the US, I don't trust it.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 10:03 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 22:12 | Link to Comment Missing_Link
Missing_Link's picture

I like that idea, Gordon.  One question, though:

What do I do when they destroy my credit rating?

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 23:15 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Make sure you suck out as much credit as possible before you default - much like the US Govt. is doing to the sovereign credit of We the People of the USA. Think of it as getting your money back which the US Govt. FORCIBLY took from you and gave to the bankers.

Or you can choose to bend over.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 20:43 | Link to Comment Missing_Link
Missing_Link's picture

Hmmm   ...  OK.

I will do that when I'm 100% convinced the collapse of the entire nation is right around the corner with 100% certainty.  Anything short of that, and a credit rating of 0 will prevent me from ever buying a house or a car again in the future.

Don't get me wrong  ...  I support your cause, but until I can be certain of both the existence and timing of a complete economic meltdown that will render credit scores irrelevant, a credit rating of 0 would be rather inconvenient.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 01:50 | Link to Comment Dburn
Dburn's picture

Make FICO irrelevant. That company has way too much power and lenders are way too dependent on it. FICO's whole business is dependent on people who think having a high credit score is worth paying 30% on credit cards and having a dry savings account for emergencies. The banks are dependent on FICO to keep the finger in the face of debtors by forcing them to ask the same question you asked; what about your credit score?" FICO will lower the "curve" once enough people do it voluntarily or are forcibly deleveraged by life circumstances. That's the only way they survive. Banks competing over 50 people with 800 scores? That won't work. FICO knows it too. Each day FICO gets a little less relevant every time people default. The whole exercise is to make them irrelevant as well as the banks.

Besides, Banks are only lending to people who don't need the money. So who cares what the FICO score is. Right now your sub-prime under 720 from what I heard. Get off the crack of credit. It'll reduce stress and you'll live longer. Credit is not a safety net if there is no income to support it.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 17:55 | Link to Comment dhengineer
dhengineer's picture

There's another advantage to having a low FICO score:  the possibility of identity theft is greatly reduced.  I went BK in the early 90's, and for years could not easily open charge accounts in department stores without basically selling my soul.  AMEX routinely sent me nasty letters turning down my applications, even 15 years later.  So when the big identity theft craze hit, I just laughed, because there was no way I was going to be ripped off. 

During that period, I took out two car loans (both paid off early), and bought and sold a condo in Boston which netted me almost three times what I paid for it.  My net worth is about four times what it was in the mid-90's.  Bad credit ratings are not the life-killers they are thought to be.

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 04:16 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

+1 Trillion...

 

 

Tue, 01/19/2010 - 01:19 | Link to Comment Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

It takes trust to screw someone. Why can't they fatten you up like a pig for the slaughter.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:06 | Link to Comment Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

Simple 3 step plan:

1. Run your TBTF lines up to the max

2. Pull all accounts out of TBTF banks

3. Stop paying any debt to TBTF

 

Sit back and laugh your ass off

 

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:18 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

BINGO. And one more thing;

4. Buy Gold/Silver with the money you take from these banks, so you profit while at the same time giving them a black eye and collapsing their Ponzi Scheme.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:19 | Link to Comment deadhead
deadhead's picture

Run your TBTF lines up to the max

i've heard/read anecdotal accounts that some of these card runups are used to purchase gold....gotta admit, that's pretty funny

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 21:01 | Link to Comment ghostfaceinvestah
ghostfaceinvestah's picture

That is pretty funny.

I am snapping up as much gold and silver as I possibly can, I think the event horizon is drawing ever closer.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 22:31 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 23:17 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Well done, Sir.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 22:49 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

I've done all of the above.  Maxed out every line to BofA, Chase, Citi, American Express, and any other CC companies that turned themselves into "bank holding" companies.  About 35k total.

Have account with local Credit Union to pay the bills through.

Stocked up on some nice Benelli shotguns, rifles, ammo, water filtration, freeze dried food, and of course gold/silver in both bulk and graded lots.

Only assets under my name are my life insurance policy and my car that's paid off.  Have secondary & tertiary income coming in should I get laid off from primary job.

$150k left on the mortgage.

Credit can kiss my ass.  FICO can kiss my ass.  Big-banking can kiss my ass.  Mindless american citizens, you need to start growing some mother-fawking balls.

...and yes, I love it when the debt collectors call with their mindless sheep phone-reps.  It's a great feeling when you can start the conversation with, "Tell me, do you know what a fiat currency is?  I didn't think so."

 

 

*sorry, double post.  forgot to login...

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 23:20 | Link to Comment Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Yeah man - it's funny and a very nice way to turn the tables on them bankers at the same time - use their weapon of debt against them, you know. This is war and we debt serfs ain't takin' no prisoners.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:15 | Link to Comment Ruth
Ruth's picture

I'm sorry, but I have to point out the criminals in this transaction....IT'S NOT A MORTGAGE BROKER!  Citi and Chase are the mobster material.  Why are they not being investigated and why are they not in jail?!

Quit bailing out the BANKSTERS!

I will do everything in my power to get the word out on the date and time we all should be pulling every red cent out of the banksters cofer.

PICK A DAY ALREADY! 

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 23:00 | Link to Comment Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

"...we all should be pulling every red cent out of the banksters cofer.

PICK A DAY ALREADY! "

9/11/2010 is on Saturday... too bad. What was Lehman's death anniversary? Ides of March? Obama Day... April 1? How about April 15th??

Some Swedish (or Scandinavian...) guy posted a video on youtube to organize a world wide "pull your money out of banks day" for some time in 2010. I can't find the link anymore. But I thought it was a good idea. Maybe right before a quarter end date.

btw-- Tyler: (-26) times ___ equals -962 is fucked up...

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 06:47 | Link to Comment Ruth
Ruth's picture

CAN AN ORDINARY CITIZEN FIGHT A BANK???  http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7631

AND IF YOU NEED HELP TRYING TO FIND A NEW BANK I WOULD START HERE:  http://moveyourmoney.info/find-a-bank

 

 

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 20:44 | Link to Comment Rick Blaine
Rick Blaine's picture

OK, no joke...

Is there anything REALLY preventing me from doing what Gekko suggested above?

I have a couple of MBNA credit cards - with basically no balances as of now...and c. $15K limits...

Given all of the $&!^ going on, if I ramp those puppies up, and just don't pay, what would happen?

Seriously?

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 22:48 | Link to Comment thomasjefferson
thomasjefferson's picture

Probably your "credit score" would take a hit and you would have limited access to credit for a few years (anecdotally speaking). If you did use the proceeds to buy gold and silver, you would be owning an appreciating asset (in terms of dollars as gold just sits there) if you can hold on for a few years (imo).  Best part is you could wait until the debt collectors showed up and settle your debt for pennies on the dollar (or zero if you were so inclined).  This happened frequently enough during the Resolution Trust days. I am unsure if they would forgive the debt from affecting your credit score if you settled your debt.  Also, state laws are probably different so do some research first if the difference becomes a tax liability (added on to your income).

If you don't care about your credit score or access to credit or other ramifications and want some metal on somebody else's fake credit this would be the way to do it. Remember, banks make loans first (create fiat money), and then that loan then becomes a deposit.  The banks really risk nothing.  Their unsecured loan is backed by your promissory note to pay. Secured loans have the benefit of your promissory note plus the asset backing the loan. Stiffing the unsecured loan means there is more money floating around, you screw the bank out of interest and profits, plus you get to keep what you bought with the loan. Hope that helps.

End the Fed!

thomas j.

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 23:03 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

Exactly.  Unless you plan on starting a business with a loan, purchase a brand new car, or buying a house within the next 5-7 years, you can tell the cc debt collectors to kiss your ass.

In addition, to show you just how bad these big-banking institutions are hurting for money, I even tried opening a Wells Fargo checking/saving account 2 months ago to see if I still could given that cc debt collectors have been calling me for the past year. 

Low and behold, I can and did (money has since been withdrawn) because the kind people at Wells realize that in these tough and turbulent times, that even the small people "need a second chance."  It was extremely hard to contain my laughter when the so-called "Advisor" told me that. 

Little did he know that this little guy also has several securities licenses and actually pays attention to what goes on in the financial sector.

 

End the Fed!  Got gold?

 

*

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 23:22 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

+1

Also, don't waste the 30-day window to send the Debt Verification letter, requesting that the collection agency verifies, uh, well the debt. Get a Pre-Paid Legal membership to access a bunch of free docs (I'm only a member, myself). If they try to sue only one of your creditors can garnish at a time! And that's if they can actually find out where you work. If you get tired of the phone calls and letters you can always Chapter 7 - but all your PMs and gunz are luxury items so don't be too quick to file or you will get bitch-slapped by the system for more or less flaunting your behavior. Well, maxing out all at once is pretty much inescapable as it is, I suppose. Definitely get some professional advice - there sure is a lot of horror stories to learn from on the web, though. 

With the DV letter as an uncertain sheild, be sure to keep track of collection attempts and sometimes amazing abuses: ka-ching! if you know what I mean.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 02:07 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sat, 01/16/2010 - 02:12 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

*keep forgetting to log back in....

 

Chapter 7 - not in this man's vocabulary and especially not at the expense of a big-banker ran ponzi economy. 

PM's?  What PM's?  :)  Good luck trying to find them all anyway.

I never keep eggs all in one basket and that goes for guns & ammo also.  There's a reason why I prefer shotguns & rifles vs handguns.

Majority of the banks who I had personal credit cards with have since written the charges off and/or sold it to some 3rd party debt collector trying to scrounge what's left, hoping I'll be the idiot that pays the balance in full for what they paid pennies-to-the-dollar on. 

And the stacks of letters I get from these so-called "financial lawyer" outfits?  You think that bull shit scares me?  Most of these letters are sent from administrative level personnel without even a Law degree posing as lawyers.  I laugh at these petty attempts.

Keep the letters coming to my 3rd party mailbox.  It'll make for good tinder when the time comes to hog-roast some of these bankers and politicians.

Good idea on the Debt Verification letter.  If they can pretend-and-extend, push foreclosures out, etc. so can we.

As I mentioned earlier, the only asset worth keeping in your name is your life insurance policy because creditors can't touch it.  Assuming you have over a million in assets, the trust should own one too seeing how estate laws and the death tax are about to reset. 

If they wanna come after my 140k mileage sedan, be my guest.  Everything else is in the trust.

Hey bankers, how you like deez nutz?!?

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 02:57 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Well done, Sir.

What Gecko said.

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 20:07 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

I have a kid in this area of the law business from whom I've learned a couple additional things. One, your income will be garnished--they'll get their money unless you declare bankruptcy. Second, the fed bankruptcy judges and creditors tend to look at the 6 month period prior to filing to see if you've obviously abused the process.

Solution seems to be blow it all up hard and fast as possible, change your phone number, sit on the collector's letters and when you get notice of the first creditor's motion to garnish, file bankruptcy (it may take a year or more to reach this point.)

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 20:19 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

+1

And if they can't find your employer it's all a bunch of fancy paperwork.

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 04:10 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

If it's unsecured credit, you can sit on it all day.  You keep assets out of your name, you can sit on it all year. 

BofA, it's been 2 years for me and they have since sold the $10k remaining to a 3rd party debt collector.  That 3rd party outfit won't see a cent.

Garnish wages?  That's why you never keep all your eggs in one basket and not rely on only 1 source of income. 

With more and more companies going the temp route, this is the perfect time to be a 1099 consultant and you don't always have to accept a check as a form of compensation.  More and more entrepreneurs and small businesses are willing to barter services.

If you have to file for bankruptcy, then do it.  That's last resort and only if you need the credit and/or don't have the skill set to make $$ on your own.

Seeing how the US is going down the path of Argentina, Weimar Germany, and Rome, when the shtf and the US currency either has an overnight major devaluation or worst case US defaults, who in the heck is gonna be loaning money let alone taking plastic?

 

 

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 02:01 | Link to Comment Dburn
Dburn's picture

This puts a serious hurt on them where as "move your Money" may make an impact, people need to realize unless they are moving their loans or eliminating them, moving deposits is taking cheap capital out but they are still loans to the bank and are booked as liabilities. Taking loans out reduces assets and cash flow far faster than moving deposits. If you had your choice of some asking for the money they loaned you back or the same people telling you they won't pay the money they owe you back, which one do you choose? Liquidity may make you go for the loans if they aren't getting paid, but eventually if too may assets go bad, or performing assets are moved, the banks go under.

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 10:04 | Link to Comment harveywalbinger
harveywalbinger's picture

Just curious.  Does the concept of living honorably (a rigid concept I'd argue) still exist, or is it now negotiable based on how others live their lives ?   This discussion has morphed into the realm of the honor, integrity, *morality*, justice derivative...  

 

I do appreciate your comments.  Good stuff & good to know, but it is a recipe for chaos.  This kind of free-for-all ends with the most ruthless gangster in charge.  

 

Vote for Ron Paul !  Out the incumbents ! (all of them)  End the Fed ! 

Fri, 01/15/2010 - 21:16 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 22:26 | Link to Comment Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture

Why not? We can't kill the banks any quicker than they are already. JPM giving $9.3M in bonuses on a losing quarter. How do they justify this? Yeah, I know they need to keep thir talent. I'm sure if they only got $3.3M in bonuses they'd be running out the front door to ALL those other jobs out there. (sarcasm off) Sons a bitches probably never had a blister in their life!

Sat, 01/16/2010 - 16:42 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 23:10 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 23:57 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sat, 01/16/2010 - 01:18 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sat, 01/16/2010 - 04:24 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sat, 01/16/2010 - 19:32 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 01/17/2010 - 01:49 | Link to Comment harveywalbinger
harveywalbinger's picture

I'm amazed at the stubborn yet chickenshit attitude on display in these comments.  Let me say that I absolutely understand where the tone is coming from and I'm as stunned as anyone at the grift that is allowed to occur daily in the Beltway, but I gotta say I'm a little disgusted that the prevailing attitude here seems to be that since we can't beat a corrupt, captured, rotting system, we may as well become criminal ourselves.  If you buy into that you've begun to relinquish your humanity & God help you.  I'd sooner take up arms & start spraying lead than sink to the level of a TBTF banker/thief.  But no one wants to go there...   

Perhaps it's late in the game to start for many, but I hold fast to the belief that it is wise to live a little  below your means as this enables one to pay down debt fast.  You don't have to live like a prison inmate, but you can make wise choices to put yourself on the path to be in the driver's seat financially.   That summarizes my strategy in recently becoming debtfree.  It's remarkably simple.  Instead of buying all the latest shiny new toys, you drive a (sound) old car.  Thankfully I hate shopping so I don't have too much trouble keeping that under control...  Basically if you can't afford something & you don't really need it anyway, don't buy the F-ing thing.  

And why the hell does every person with a pulse in this country believe they need... no... believe they are ENTITLED to a 4000 sq ft McMansion ?  New houses do usually look very nice (& I confess it would be nice to have additional rooms for a couple of spare bedrooms, a den, a rec room, a game room, a home theater room, a wine celler, a pool, etc.) but you don't really need all that shit.  An interesting factoid is that more often than not new homes aren't built to the same standards as homes built in the 50's & 60's (which used dimensionally correct lumber, studs every 16", hardwood floors underneath that old carpet, etc...).  Even if there wasn't a bubble to be concerned with a lot of those McMansions aren't going to age gracefully.  Newsflash:  The McMansion you are now no longer making payments on was most likely built by illegal workers with little knowledge of proper construction techniques.  A family member bought a new McMansion a few years back & found out a couple years (when the upstairs floor started to sag) that a viewout window in the basement had no header above it...  This kind of thing makes me certain that many an unfortunate moron who owes an $800k mortgage on a $400k McMansion doesn't truly have a grasp on the concept of fundamental valuation.  Now that I've vented a bit...  If I found myself in that underwater RE scenario I'd walk away in a New York minute... but my point is why the fuck would you allow yourself to get into that position.  

And another thing... Tons of foreigners come to the USA & see nothing but opportunity-even now.  Case in point:  There's a new Chinese restaurant down the street from us.  It's obviously a family business & they all can speak barely intelligible English.  Bear in mind the area I live has not been spared from Obama's jobless recovery.  I am fortunate to still have a job but don't expect it to last much longer.  I am fortunate to be one of the remaining ~3000 (my company laid off >8000 in '09).  But even with what must seem like countless obstacles, this family is having a go with that restaurant.  The food was pretty good too-made two meals of an order of Kung Po.  My point: it seems to me what it comes down to is a lot of people are just afraid of hard work.  But I digress...    Suggesting that one should max out all available credit & become a thief (much like the ones we hate) is indefensibly wrong & speaks of character deficiencies on the part of whomever would make that suggestion.  I apologize if these words come across as callous.  I do not apologize for the message.  Consider that perhaps if each were more responsible of/for themselves (as the founding fathers had intended), we wouldn't be in this mess. 

Those who are offended by my remarks, consider this: the people who play by the rules are the ones that get fucked over by this system so go cry a river somewhere else.  Fuck off .  If you opt to be a thief you had better keep that shit to yourself if/when the SHTF.  I'll eagerly offer assistance/food/shelter to those who didn't give up & choose to be a petty crook.  You're the same as the bankers to me.  If/when confrontation comes you'll need all the friends you can get.

 

Vote for Ron Paul !!!  Yeah he says things that aren't PC.  So what.  Don't be such a pussy

 

Present flamethrowers..... Open fire !

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 02:55 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 01/17/2010 - 04:11 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

Wow.  Big-bankers must really love guys like you.  Matter of fact, I wouldn't doubt it if you were on the big-banker payroll with comments like that.

Don't tell me about fucking work.  I paid my way through a 4-year college.  I work 3 jobs right now.  One W-2 and 2 1099's and for the time I was between W-2 employment 5 years ago, I never filed for unemployment.  So don't fucking tell me about work.

We put our child through private school because the public education system in CA sucks.  So don't fucking tell me about work.

I just put 78% down IN CASH on a 30 year fixed for a new home I just purchased so stop preaching to the fucking choir.

Now if you want to continue to get ass-reamed by big-bankers, that's your problem.  Seeing how you enjoy the fleecing of middle-class americans so much and play in a game that's rigged, I'll even loan you my Costco card so you can buy the Vaseline in bulk and join them.

It isn't a fucking game anymore when one side chooses not to play by the rules.  Wake the fuck up and btw, nobody here is asking for your fucking assistance/food/shelter so take your #10 cans and stick it where the sun don't shine.

The kids at the school yard must of had a field day with you growing up seeing how you play P-I-G while they play R-H-I-N-O-C-E-R-O-S.  Get a fucking clue.

 

 

 

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 04:42 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

(+1)

Psst. Does that guy know what is and isn't a criminal matter? Sucks for him - he's all over the map anyway:

we may as well become criminal ourselves

 

If I found myself in that underwater RE scenario I'd walk away in a New York minute...

 

(much like the ones we hate)

 

(as the founding fathers had intended)

But this was the best:

The food was pretty good too-made two meals of an order of Kung Po.

ROFL! But I only read it because of your reply, which I read first.

---

Is your avatar a Benelli?

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 14:11 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

Guys like that are a lost cause.  He probably should of paid more attention in debate class.

Then trying to tell me everything's gonna be all right because some family opens up a Chinese restaurant down the street?  Are you seriously fucking kidding me?  On top of that, if it's a "real" chinese restaurant, I'll bet 2 egg-rolls that place is "CASH ONLY."  So who's the thief now?

Plus, it's not kung "PO" it's kung "PAO" which any chinese person will tell you isn't "real" chinese food.  LMAO.

The avatar is a Springfield M1 rifle with a JAE stock. 

 

 

Mon, 01/18/2010 - 15:24 | Link to Comment WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

I'll bet 2 egg-rolls that place is "CASH ONLY."

I really did laugh out loud.

And, uh, wow, most excellent "teeth" of Liberty. Ever read any Boston T. Party? I think you guys would get along pretty well.

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 11:20 | Link to Comment harveywalbinger
harveywalbinger's picture

Haywood:  

Is there any value in living an honorable life ?  Are your principles now negotiable based on how others might live their lives ?  

Please enlighten this unworthy heathen oh wise & noble sage.  

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 13:56 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

I would but I don't feel like wasting anymore time on people who don't have a clue. 

Not to bust your balls any further, but I hate to be the one to tell you that "kung pao" chicken/beef isn't real chinese food and just in case nobody ever told you out there on the playground as you were getting your ass handed to you by the 7 years olds playing R-H-I-N-O-C-E-R-U-S, Santa Claus ain't real either. 

I know, I know.  That's a lot to take in at one time.  Just count to 10 slowly.  Breathe in, Breathe out. 

Then you must paint the fence.  Up and Down.  No side-side.  After that, wax the car.  Wax on.  Wax off.  Once you have mastered these forms, then this wise and noble sage may educate you further. 

 

 

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 14:15 | Link to Comment harveywalbinger
harveywalbinger's picture

Fuck off with your feeble critiques.  You do your best to hurl insults but won't address tough questions.  You present yourself like a pissed off 15 year old, mad at the world.  Here's a tip:  life ain't fair.  You're a little bitch.  

 

I'll ask again:  

Assuming you have some integrity...  Are your principles negotiable based on how others might live their lives ?  What was the going rate ?  Was it $15k ?  You're a little bitch prostitute.  

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 14:55 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

Life ain't fair?  Who's complaining? 

I've got at least $30k worth of guns, ammo, food, gold & silver on the big banker's dime.  Don't get your panties in a bunch because you haven't got any balls to stand firm against the tyranny that's gripping this country.  Seeing how they already put every man, woman, and child $100k+ in the hole, that's the least I could do.

By the way, I love it when you talk dirty to me.  Now how about some tongue action?  Just try not to get your braces stuck on my freshly trimmed pubes while you're down there.

 

 

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 15:18 | Link to Comment harveywalbinger
harveywalbinger's picture

I've got at least $30k worth of guns, ammo, food, gold & silver on the big banker's dime

You mean on the taxpayer dime...  

All you've done is rationalize your behavior.  This is tiring.  I'm done with it.  You win.  You are the man.  You've got it all figured out.  It must be great to be you.  I've been bested by chickenshit.  

Mon, 01/18/2010 - 09:06 | Link to Comment Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

They already took $140k from me individually as well as all tax payers you moron.  That's right.  MY FUCKING TAX-PAYER DIME. 

Seriously, get a damn clue and grow some balls while you're at it. 

Idiot.  YOU BESTED YOURSELF on your opening long-winded rhetoric (#196354) which WaterWings pointed out earlier (#196404).  I was just simply riding your own coat-tails!  LMFAO!

While you figure out how I just ran circles around you, do yourself a favor and try reading "Art of War" and "Book of Five Rings."  Buy the damn cliff notes version if you have to.

With much love from Cali,

Haywood Jablowme

 

 

Sun, 01/17/2010 - 14:52 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 01/17/2010 - 14:54 | Link to Comment Anonymous
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