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Mortgage Meltdown Mess Update
With all the excitement over yet another market melt up, some may have forgotten about the biggest story in process of decimating the US economy, and its entire mortgage-credit backbone. Here is a brief summary of all the comings and goings in the Mortgage Meltdown Mess, which may explain why the Fed is getting aggressive about inflating the living feces out of $10+ trillion in mortgage debt.
Rep. Zoe Lofgren and CA Democratic Delegation Asks for Investigations
http://lofgren.house.gov/images/stories/pdf/letter_to_investigate_banks_-_final_10.4.10.pdf
AFL-CIO Reiterates Call for Foreclosure Moratorium
http://blog.aflcio.org/2010/09/30/banks-should-follow-chase-and-declare-moratorium-on-foreclosures/
Freddie Demands Review of Servicer Policy
http://www.freddiemac.com/sell/guide/bulletins/pdf/iltr100110.pdf
Senator Menendez Sends Stern Letters to Banks, Asks for GAO Investigation
- JP Morgan Chase: http://menendez.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/20101005ltr_JPMorgan.pdf
- Bank of America: http://menendez.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/20101005ltr_BoA.pdf
- Ally Financial: http://menendez.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/20101005ltr_Ally.pdf
- Mortgage Servicers (identical letter sent to 117 companies): http://menendez.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/20101005ltr_MortgageServicers.pdf
- GAO: http://menendez.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/20101005ltr_GAOMortgages.pdf
The Next New Century? LPS under investigation by Florida AG
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Answer, bitchez:
because if they don't, it's ALL WORTHLESS
Exactly, without daily full-retard market interventions, its all instantly worthless. Bitchez.
You know, I'm kind of stoked for Karl. This is an issue right up his alley (in terms of skill sets), and he's been nothing short of a fiend analyzing all the details.
As he notes, the entire scam revolve(s/d) around the need to roll existing paper. Hence the Fed's driving imperative to prop up asset values and lower borrowing costs.
If they can't get this baby reflated, and the attorneys begin the interminable process of drilling through the records, then Congress is going to have to step in and execute some kind of force majeure.
And as as we know, politicians hate to take a stand. Because this time around everyone is wide awake and are going to be watching closely to see whose side Congress is going to support.
If they choose to (once again) back the banks, then Ben will be authorized to drive the $USD to pennies. If they choose to side with Americans, then hello deflationary collapse.
It'll be a lot harder to side with the banks this time (though still possible). Granny's in homes getting kicked out by robosigners is a much harder meme to get past. Pensions (union retirements) getting shafted by greedy Wall Street banks for not actually transferring title.
And the banks <could> claim a bit of ignorance prior to the financial crisis (everyone thought housing prices could never go down). This time, they were clearing committing errors, negligence, and fraud. There's no other possible actors to blame, as their faulty procedures were the ones that caused this whole mess.
Maybe someone can help me to understand how this directly affects the average joe who is current on his bills and mortgage. How would I find out where the title is on my home or who holds it and if it has been properly conveyed? My parents refi'd in 2005-2006 so it is likely their notes were packaged and sold...I bought in Aug 2008 so maybe not so likely? What are the implications for someone in my situation?
Sorry if these are dumb questions; I would just like to know (particularly for my parents) whether or not a foreclosure can actually occur since they both have been laid off and have almost exhausted their unemployment. State is WA. Thank you.
I'm not an attorney, and I only have a small understanding of the issues at hand. And I want to be relatively brief...
For someone like yourself, who doesn't seem to want to take advantage of the situation just yet, is paying their bills, and isn't selling their house, it's probably best to just to watch and wait. Read up on the issues, and watch the situation develop. Now if you were actively selling, or had money troubles then...
For your parents, this will likely forestall a foreclosure for some time. At the very least they should retain or consult with an attorney if the bank/servicer files a notice of default or foreclosure. As for searching a title, there are a few good websites out there on these matters, and they will likely go into this in greater depth. I think the initial take-away is that borrowers should be aware of and vigilantly pursue their rights...
I haven't read this, but have seen it while scrolling around the site. Maybe it helps, maybe not. Good site nonetheless:
http://4closurefraud.org/2009/10/18/foreclosure-fraud-guide-to-looking-u...
Thx Conrad, I will give this site and scribd doc a good read. Cheers.
Anyone can go to the county courthouse, registry office, or hall of records and look up the records on any property. They are all a matter of public record. The clerks are usually helpful.
But, if the mortgage has been sold and resold and the records not properly filed by the banks the information may not be accurate. This is what is at the bottom of some of the mortgage problems.
Finding out title and mortgage holding should be as simple as calling your county clerks office.
When this first came to light a few weeks ago, that was the first call I made. They can't legally tell you who is listed over the phone, but if you call and tell them: I'm looking at this address, the name of the title / deed holder should be XXXX and the name of the mortgage holder should be YYYY, they can say yes that matches or no that doesn't. For me, it was a simple 5 minute call, and fortunately for me she said yes, it matched on both. (Of course, I still went to the office when I got back to town and laid my own 2 eyes on the paperwork).
Obviously, if the title/deed doesn't match your name and / or the listed mortgage company you are sending payment to doesn't match the name listed, you have some serious problems and should lawyer up ASAP.
Hope this helps.
Again, I'm no attorney, but my sense is the problem isn't necessarily just that the names on your title/deed holder match the mortgage holder.
1. Have your title/note been transferred appropriately? Is the chain of title intact?
2. Do your title/note still exist in original form? Where is it? Is it sitting in a file cabinet of a bankrupt entity (trustee transfer issues)?
3. Was your title/note transferred into an RMBS? If so, was the chain of title/note properly executed prior to the completion of the formation of the trust? Does the note/title still exist in original form?
4. If/when you pay your note off (or go into foreclosure), will the RMBS still exist? Will all of the parties be able to execute the release? What happens when the first few transches are paid off - do the remaining tranches still have standing against the note?
#4's fishing a bit, but I've read some speculation on these issues...
Thanks for the feedback TJ (all posts).
Titles are open records. Go to your county's website; they may have a link. Failing that--not all states have had the wherewithal to conduct massive data transfers onto the Internet--you'll have to go to the county clerk's office, and hunt for the records. With any luck, you will find them quickly.
It is unlikely that your title has been repackaged, so it is probably still good and proper for resale should you wish to sell. Your parents' title, however, is very likely corrupted. Good for them if they want to default and stay; bad if they want to sell and move...
Name of entity to which you send checks and make checks payable to...please.
put on face paint, pull out the automatic water weapons that look like the real thing, slap a flag on your car/house/dog and get a big sign on you house that say's BRING IT! That's as far as my expertise goes. That and "don't get lawyer." EVER.
The problems here are potentially vast and mostly unknown. The two that stick out the most are as follows: (I have a law degree though I am not currently licensed to practice.)
1) Foreclosures - if Bank A loans money for a mortgage typically a mortage is filed in the courthouse to reflect that lien. (common law states) If Bank A sells the mortgage to Bank B an assignment is recorded to reflect the new mortgagee. If Bank B sells it to Bank C another assignment should be recorded to establish a "chain of title or ownership." If the owner defaults Bank C owns the paper and would be the proper party to foreclose. In this situation, if Bank C never recorded the assignment but Bank C forecloses anyway they are not the real party in interest. Now imagine that mortgage is a tranche in an MBS owned by hundreds of investors. Who is the real party in interest? The banks have been forging assignments to give the plaintiff standing to foreclose.
2) Property Transfers - in this situation the seller (or their attorney) forwards the sale proceeds to the current owner of the mortgage as revealed by a title search in the courthouse records. The funds are usually overnighted and the mortgagee of record (following the chain of title) must return a "satisfied mortgage" to the attorney who records it and updates the title and issues a final title policy. If the mortgagee does not have the orginal mortage to mark "satisfied" they send an affidavit of "lost mortgage" which is then filed. But what if that entity did not actually own the mortgage? That means that the satisfaction "may" not be valid if the lender failed to record an assignment. It is possible the ultimate mortgagee may still have a lien and the new purchaser does not have clear title and the new lender does not have a first lien. In that case, the title insurer may be called upon to pay.
If you own a house now and are current with your mortgage, but you want to know who actually owns your note and mortage (not necessarily the servicer) you can pay a title abstracter to check the public records and follow the chain. It does not mean you will actually know who owns the paper, but you might be able to find out if there are problems. You can also write the last assignee of record and ask them if they have the original or a copy of the note and mortage in their possession. You may be tipping them off to a problem if you were to take that step.
Good post P, thanks.
You BOUGHT in Wa State in 2008?
I SOLD in Wa State in 2008...
Hope you're not swimming with the fishes.
I hope Jamie Dimon can say "RICO"!
Can't believe Karl is still in the deflationary camp. What is it going to take to get him to admit that he was way wrong on gold? Gold $55k? I don't think it matters what the outcome of this mortgage mess is. The Fed will still continue to monetize most of the Treasury's debt. I can see housing prices continue to deflate, but this does not equate to deflation across all sectors of the economy (just the leveraged parts), especially since there is nothing stopping Ben from buying Tim's toilet paper.
I won't speak for Karl, but I think his position is that it doesn't matter what gold goes to because it means a devaluation in the dollar which will collapse the US economy.
Nothing like cutting to the chase. Good job. Milestones
The pace of this mess so far is tiring slow, and the media coverage is somewhat disappointing due to the fact that the events and carnage that will transpire will be overwhelming to say the least.
As I understand it, this mess has been developing for 1-2 years now, as some of the references on MERS are about that old. Only now is it starting to hit critical mass and perhaps the tipping point.
You are right about the MSM as well, wouldn't ya think it would be news that millions of homeowners might have clouded title? That isn't news? How about that hundreds of thousands or millions of foreclosures could have been fraudulently pursued and prosecuted?
It is just another example of how the MSM doesn't represent the people, the viewers. Just their corporate masters...
Here's a nice piece on LPS involvement:
Linda Green's changing signature
Impressive.
The varying signature styles resulted from a decision made by the manager of Docx to allow an employee to sign an authorized employee's name with his or her express written consent. LPS was unaware of this practice ...
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/political-economy/2010/10/lender_proces...
Do the fraud and perjury laws apply to banks and mortgage servicers? just sayin'
No. In the interest of National Security, all pending litigation against banks, servicers, etc. will be thrown out.
That's an interesting position...real national security might demand the opposite!
Lender Processing Service live webcast conference call wednesday 8 a.m. (ET) link (bring lipstick)
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=222167&p=irol-presentations
Thanks for the link. Could be another doozie of a conference call, like Brian Lenihan's Citi conference call.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/exclusive-recording-brian-lenihans-citi...
Prosecutors may see through "varying signature styles" as "fraudulent signatures".
Either the media slugs are too dismally dull to comprehend fully what is about to happen, which is my belief, or they've been ordered by their masters to avoid real coverage (tinfoil hat version). It's immaterial, in any event, as the recent polls indicate that the majority of US citizens find the MSM utterly worthless.
when subprime was just starting to show its stinky head in Summer of 07, I couldn't figure out why markets kept rallying, shoot the peaked in Oct 07 and were still pretty high in Nov 07 and Spring 08....it was not til fall 08 people really acknowledged we had a problem...patience....
I wonder if I will be able to claw back the money I paid on my mortgage last year?
Maybe I will be able to buy a cup of coffee with it.
Potentially. If you can refinance, take the money and quit paying.
But Cramer said "housing can't hurt us anymore.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/39518776
“I am urging people to recognize that housing is not that important to this economy,” Cramer said during Tuesday’s Stop Trading!.
What an asshat.
Meanwhile, silver up almost $1 today. This (failed) experiment is coming apart faster by the day.
"Quick, hit the accelerator."
"silver up"
WHEEEEEEE!!!!!!
LOL
What are they gonna say?? Yeah, you caught us.....um, how bout you congressfolk transfer all this crap into the safety of freddie M?
They know they have defrauded the entire world. The gig is up.
No wonder the insiders are selling like there's no tommorrow.....there isn't gonna be one
Pitchforks, axes and torches!
Beans, Bullets and Band-aids will serve you better.
Off topic a little but a friend of mine just told me his broker called and said his cali-muni bond had just gone kaput. Said not to expect any more interest or the principal. Adios 25G. Some sort of industrial development bond in SoCal.
Ok, Boys n gurls,time to lock n load.
This bitch( I include all of it as a bitch) is just the EXCUSE HE needed.
So, get ready for a Bank WEEK Holiday, and maybe a tad of Martial Law,within the next 2-3 weeks.
As soon a J6P finds out their fooked, look out.................
Greece will look like a picnic...........
Got any PM's?,Booolets,pojo launchers,hide outs?.
Think this will melt down fast enough to call off the Election?.......
Sneaky Bstds.
Amazing how fast mud houses collapse in the rain.
An aggressive timing call - 2 to 3 weeks. It's possible, but I think they can keep this under-wraps for awhile longer. Wall Street doesn't care - more POMO please. Fall shows and NFL are on TV.
I think they will spin and hide this for awhile longer and look for a solution. The lawsuits will take years to argue in court, and can be buried with continuances, etc.
I agree that this is a huge deal. But I wouldn't be buying Oct puts based upon it... :)
DosZap, exactly.
My futureguru has this shit colon blowing in the next 4-5 weeks. You may be correct Sir.
The second the polls close...
Buying up and just hanging onto DXD is causing me to have to think significantly less about this than is absolutely necessary. It'll go up, pretty certain of this.
Wow. That fast....hmmmm.....I thought they would at least try for post election but this really might be spot on considering the unravelling occuring in some many areas.
Dammmn! And they say it never rains in California.
Here's a little tidbit from wikipedia,
"Among the major issuers of REMICs are the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac) and the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae), the two leading secondary market buyers of conventional mortgage loans, as well as privately operated mortgage conduits owned by mortgage bankers, mortgage insurance companies, and savings institutions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Estate_Mortgage_Investment_Conduit
I never thought I'd say this, but I hope that each and every one of the lawyers that is representing a client about to be foreclosed on by one of these slimeball banks just simply rips those rat bastards a new a**hole and and their mortgage servicing buddies a new one as well.
Mixed up, even dishonest foreclosures do not acquit those foreclosed on. What's in question is in part who has the right to foreclose, not whether the foreclosure was right.
Many foreclosures were the result of homeowners whose housing values have gone into the toilet, and their mortgages were upside down. They chose to walk away for strategic financial reasons. Some people did "lose" their houses, in the sense they were illegally (or immorally) seized, and the court will be loaded down with more fake claims than real ones, most likely. But the mortgage mess is multi-faceted.
All banks are slimeball banks; they are the ultimate freeloaders, getting money for nothin'. Citizens have to work for their money. When I take my business to the discount window, it's always closed.
... dishonest foreclosures do not acquit those foreclosed on ...
In some instances we are discovering that the legitimate holder of the mortgage (when finally found) is willing to renegotiate the loan - whereas the bank who foreclosed (without right) was not willing. If you take this fact into account, your statement is not entirely true.
This is a true statement, but the remedy for fraud on the court is sometimes dismissal with prejudice. Where it is not, it may be impossible to determine who the "real party in interest" is and in that even a foreclosure cannot go forward because it would be a nullilty. Courts do not like to enter judgments that do not adjudicate the rights of the parties.
What may happen is Congress will pass a law and setup a special foreclosure court which would have the right and power to enter a final judgment of foreclosure and adjudicate all rights and interests - something like a quiet title action.
A few shrewd lawyers can take advantage of this situation and some people will end up with a free home. If that happens, I saw tough luck to the lenders who raped this country. They deserve nothing better.
The fact is that someone has the title to the property, and by default it will be the government, which means the bankers. All roads lead back to them. Let's hope that governments don't set up special courts with broad powers that will never ever go away. The stats on government intervention are abysmal. Cash for clunkers, cash for caulkers, cash for xyz - they are always over budget by an amount that exceeds the problem they presume to solve.
You seem to think that the lenders will be on the hook for all of those "free" homes. You and I both know who will have to pick up the tab.
I wonder how this will be swept under the rug?
http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/testimony/bernanke20070328a.htm
Although the turmoil in the subprime mortgage market has created severe financial problems for many individuals and families, the implications of these developments for the housing market as a whole are less clear. The ongoing tightening of lending standards, although an appropriate market response, will reduce somewhat the effective demand for housing, and foreclosed properties will add to the inventories of unsold homes. At this juncture, however, the impact on the broader economy and financial markets of the problems in the subprime market seems likely to be contained.
His standard response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
With this ? - http://4closurefraud.org/2010/10/05/action-alert-please-tell-president-o...
Didn't take long for the criminals in Congress to attempt to legalize usurping people's assets without due process. Must be a few more tricks up their sleeve. Corporate capture and fascism at its finest!
HOLY SHIT!!
The snake mother fuckers are attempting an end run on this thing!
I just sent an email to Obama urging him to not sign H.R. 3808, the “Interstate Recognition of Notarizations Act.
I'm sure that was a waste of 90 seconds. But what the hell, it was free. Here's the link
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
That only fixes part of the problem. The document could still be fraudulent and there still maybe missing assignments. Plus, I am not sure federal law can supercede state law in this way.
This is not what Cramer or any bank official says publically. Its what being said in COURT and what Judges are ruling. LPS (lender processor services) dropped like a rock today when they made a press release that they had not recorded affidavids from banks for two years. 90 day freeze on bankrupcies, title cos will not write title insurance on foreclosures because of the defective title chain on millions of properties. There is smoke coming from the trash heep.
The coverup started assuming housing prices would recover. Now with lower prices can the coverup be contained with most foreclosures being challenged in court based on defective recording, documentation, and fraud. This is an attorney's wet dream. A better description of the serious nature of the mortgage crisis can be seen on Kudlow program yesterday (see you tube).
Yep. Some sort of federal law might be able to fix it, but they still need to pass state procedural rules like "best evidence" "parole evidence" and the statute of frauds.
Definitely ON TOPIC. I'm a mortgage originator (and a good one!!!), and here is part of an email that I received today. File under "times they 'r a-changin'":
Here is a shocker!!!
Bank of America is closing wholesale. They will honor all the loans in the pipeline but no new registrations or submissions after today.
The official annoucement will come later today.
This was followed up by an announcement from Wells Fargo:
Wells Fargo Remains Committed to Wholesale Business
In a rapidly changing regulatory and business environment, we want to let you know that we remain steadfastly committed to you, your borrowers and the Wholesale business. For more than 15 consecutive years, we’ve worked with brokers, and we remain committed to this origination channel.
Nothing like a bit 'o litigation to seize up the borrowing channels. If they thought credit was tight a few months ago, just wait...
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/real-estate/bank-of-america-will-exit-the-wholesale-mortgage-business/19661917/
Mentions how 1,000 employees might be "impacted". Notice how layoffs (and they seem to have been increasing lately) aren't really reported anymore?
If your former residential ATM is under a foreclosure halt, tone down your celebration. Although you think haven't a note to pay, you also haven't a title and likewise no one will (likely ever) buy your rat's nest. Put that into your appraisal and smoke it.
...unless you bought your house as a place to shit, shower, sleep and shave (and grow food, and start a barter business on skills your have, etc) and have no plans of selling it....then appraisals, etc matter not much or at all.
(full disclosure, I bought my modest house for the above reasons (the 4 S's), am not under foreclosure (in fact, current and making extra principle payments, I do not plan on selling, don't care about appraisals outside of prop tax reasons and turned most of my former lawn into food production years ago...f**k the yuppies and boomer's ATM mentality))
This will be good for Christmas sales numbers, right?
... inflate the living feces...
Tyler, you're TOO kind!
This kind of venal criminality combined with rapacious stupidity, shortsightedness, laziness, etc needs another moniker... Whatever it is, it's done. Just don't let up and don't quit on their asses even after some high profile 'perp walks' (I mean lesser players thrown under busses!) which, given how facile the Obama administration has been to date, will be about the day after never!
Money for nothing, chicks for free. Party till you drop!
Yup and guess who's probably in the deepest? BAC...And look at how Wall St. rewarded them today for their corruption.
BAC 13.56 3.12%No kidding! I would love to go long FAZ based on fundamentals. However, based on Ponz'amentals I don't trust it.
Here's a Countrywide ad from the distant past (note that BAC now owns Countrywide)
No one can do what Countrywide can
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei5OrV-CmHg
I think that's about it.
There's so much paper and leverage riding on MBS the FED default position has to be to inflate inflate inflate to keep the ponzi derivative market in the air. The dark market for OTC derivatives is >$600 Trillion.
This situation is soooooo f*cked up it is impossible to even think about it in a good light. We can only hope that this may force regulators to look under the hoods of the insolvent banks, but most likely it will be papered over like rest of the financial crisis mess. Helicopters commence printing!!!
Forgot the 'world war' part as millions must die in a reset.
*billions
You think those psychotic eugenics people won't want to play some part in this? The average numpty on the street thinks the world is overpopulated and something needs to be done about it: funny enough, those fools never realize that they're the ones who end up on the chopping block.
WWIII is going to be unprecedented when it comes to the loss of human life.
Populution!! my Gawd. We don't have "peak oil" we have peak people! Get rid of half the world's population and puff, peak oil gone, job outsourcing gone, water polution gone, adequate food, no problem. Only problem is the 800 lb gorilla--religion-no, the churches of the religious yes. Milestones
http://www.fdic.gov/buying/loan/loansales/index.html
Loan Sales Announcements
I’ll just pick one to highlight and ask if anyone thinks that it will be easier for FDIC to get bidders.
OFFERING ANNOUNCEMENT
$29.2MM Performing and Non-Performing Loans and Participations
On behalf of the FDIC, DebtX (www.debtx.com) is pleased to announce the sale of assets related to The Bonifay Bank, Bonifay, FL receivership:
$1.29?
If they are going to just inflate everything away - why not pay off every mortgage in the country? It would cost less.
The elite cannot possibly stoop so slow and actually help the little people.
PS. Great idea!
Actually, the little people will tear that idea to shreds as surely as jealous children fighting over a single piece of cake. You see it here at ZH every time this subject comes up.
Yeah, it isn't really workable like this, but my more serious idea is to reform "bankruptcy" to be practically this generous. Unpayable debt is the problem, so any solution that doesn't eliminate debt is either useless or going to make the problems worse.
Of course, creditors aren't going to like huge haircuts at all, are they? And who can blame them.
This mortage fraud on top of all the other frauds creates this perfect storm effect where options are deleted instantly and the fraud of war and conflict become the only tools the PTB have left.
Batten down the hacthes, but I think this fall we'll see some great "you-can't-make-this-shit-up" TV, providing of course the power is still running. (Might go third world real fast as Volker is beginning to realize.)
Someone just turned on the fan and my prediction is by early November -- just in time for the elections, how convenient -- something will happen -- the crap part of this equation -- that "justifies" the PTB using those prison camps they have been building and refurbishing. Keeping us all safe from ourselves, you understand.
The clue: Notice McCain's Homeland Terrorist Detainment bill is hitting committee, which will allow the PTB the ability to "indefinitely detain" anyone who doesn't play nice according to the gang banksters. We are truly heading into amazing times.
We are dancing down the path of the 1930's, only this time playing the role of Germany, hyperinflating ourselves to debt, then launching ourselves into a war in order for a few elites to escape the hangman for a couple more years. The death and destruction that will follow will test all our souls.
Half Past Human.com predicts a significant event November 8-14 that is many magnitudes bigger than 911. The date seems perfect. With the gold fraud, the mortgage fraud, the raping of the taxpayer, the food starvation bill and now the illegal "indefinite incarceration" law for US citizens -- and I am sure Canadians too -- sponsored by none other than John "Ran to Lose" McCain, the PTB, out of bullets, are about to kick the middle class of America squarely in the nuts. Right after an overwhelming defeat at the polls makes some sense.
My bet: The PTB being psycopaths will first hit us with shock and awe -- watch for a complete internet and banking shutdown, blamed on a third party (Iran and/or China) -- which both hides the fraud and creates economic chaos that people will demand government does something about. Hense they both collapse the system then come back as heros trying to save us all.
At this point WW3 will be well and truly underway, but that war will be the 1% elite psycopaths against the rest of humanity. They will try to get us to view the Iranians or the Chinese or the North Koreans as the enemy, but the enemy will unforunately be the golobalist elites against the people. America is the prize in the end, not the aggressor. Without America there will be no freedom on this planet.
Our whole society is a fraud of contract that tricks us into agreements that give them jurisdiction over us because we don't understand the language they are using or the context they are using it with. Even in commercial law, going to prison is a "benefit" of being a member of our society, and we in essence agree to our incarceration. We have completely and totally forgotten who we are, and the power we possess.
Notice how Europe is hanging by a thread, literally, and yet it is all so calm. All the currencies are falling against each other, so it looks like relative values haven't dipped much. Gold says otherwise, the one true currency, and every ounce of physical taken out of the market is a vote against the status quo -- a vote that actually counts -- and the fiat system that allows for the pillaging of the planet.
A friend of mine at lunch said he was going to sell his gold soon. I said if he did, I'd beat him. I reminded him how the Comex and LBMA trade 100X paper to physical, and that the purchasing power he could have in the future could reflect that. Today, Japan joined the race to the bottom, ensuring that the fiat currency collapse is at hand. Unsolicited advice, and yes you need food because you can't eat gold, but if you really want this planet to change for the better, use all your monopoly money to purchase all the gold you can. That will both better ensure a better future for you and your loved ones, but also ensure that the right people will be at the table when we need to reform society in the very near future.
Davie Boy, you sound pretty dark...did you take your meds today?
I get a sense that most everyone here actually thinks that the borrower is the innocent party in all of this mess. Is that right? If so, I must assume you all were hired by the Obama regime to once again throw up a smoke screen and cast the consumer as the dumb, uneducated victim or better put prey for the predator! BOOOO!
I don't like the banks either, but the borrower was (in most cases) as guilty as the banker. The politician is who needs to be placed on trial and tared and feathered. Boy, isn't it amazing how fast a crook will turn on their once honored friends. I guess it's accurate to say there is no honor among thieves. Once again the politicians seem to be moving the meter.
Our electorate are no different than the child who is asked "why did you do that? Then responds, "what", I didn't do anything. Figure it out America.
Every action has a catalyst. In other words the burning building with inadequate fire prevention was ignited by the arson. Does this make what the arson did OK? Was this in fact the buildings management team that is too blame? Our elected officials, treasury and our Fed are the arson's people. The buildings are the bankers.
Has anyone here ever researched just what percentage of mortgages the top banks (pre bust) were responsible for originating? The number is shockingly low. It was the "shadow" banking industry that originated the bulk of the loans. Yea, all those entities that are now gone. Then the Wall Street gang (Goldman, Merrill, Lehman etc) packaged them up & re-sold them. Did the top banks participate? Yes, but only on a small percentage. The problem is that the big toxic mortgage originators and toxic security firms were crammed down the throats of our largest banks.
Now our elected officials are successfully laying the blame at the feet of our banks. The crooks in our government know that they would be seen for what they really are if the real story was ever allowed to be told. By the way, not ALL elected officials are crooked.
But to side with and root for the borrower in this mess is not the right stance to take.
"But to side with and root for the borrower in this mess is not the right stance to take."
Personally, I'm just rooting for this whole thing to blow up entirely so that the very idea of a mortgage backed security or a low/no money down or low/no doc loan is considered completely batshit insane. Just referencing the idea that "the borrower is slave to the lender" along with strong ethical history condemning usury, mortgages in general are pretty bad to start with, but this whole situation was debt slavery on crack. We need to put down the drugs, get into rehab, and hopefully come out the other side sober and ready to live honest lives. Just about everybody was to blame for this, so we need to collectively fix it.
It's NOT just foreclosed/deliquent borrowers. It's possibly ANY mortgage that was not properly conveyed into a RMBS. Could be MILLIONS of mortgages. Title could be clouded. The RMBS could have been fraudulently created, therefore the banks will have to buy back the individual loans at the ORIGINATED price. The banks will go bankrupt.
And besides, it's the idea that the government, judiciary, and lawyers have been complicit in avoiding the due process of long established property law.
The possibilities are somewhat alarming. I guess it's no different than a murderer getting off due to legal technicality by the police or other attorney. It won't be the first time a bunch of Lawyers fucked things up. I don't see it happening or would they really be fucking things up as I think this through....
The bank officers (at the time of the Lehman implosion) would be forced to rat out the Fed and Treasury (Hank & Ben) for the infamous TARP, acquisitions or cram downs (whatever you want to call them), the Goldman shenanigans become public, and who knows what other crimes are uncovered relating to the Fed.
CNBC says stocks sore because of world wide QE. On second thought hurry up Lawyers.
I dont feel sorry for anyone who said 'No money down? No Job? No Income? I jump in it'! Nope, no pity party for them at all from me.
"Did the top banks participate? Yes, but only on a small percentage. "
Baloney!
see: http://www.publicintegrity.org/investigations/economic_meltdown/articles...
"The top subprime lenders whose loans are largely blamed for triggering the global economic meltdown were owned or bankrolled by banks now collecting billions of dollars in bailout money — including several that have paid huge fines to settle predatory lending charges.
These big institutions were not only unwitting victims of an unforeseen financial collapse, as they have sometimes portrayed themselves, but enablers that bankrolled the type of lending that has threatened the financial system.
These are among the findings of a Center for Public Integrity analysis of government data on nearly 7.2 million “high-interest” or subprime loans made from 2005 through 2007, a period that marks the peak and collapse of the subprime boom. The computer-assisted analysis also reveals the top 25 originators of high-interest loans, accounting for nearly $1 trillion, or about 72 percent of such loans made during that period.
The Center found that U.S. and European investment banks invested enormous sums in subprime lending due to unceasing demand for high-yield, high-risk bonds backed by home mortgages. The banks made huge profits while their executives collected handsome bonuses until the bottom fell out of the real estate market.
Investment banks Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, JPMorgan & Co., and Citigroup Inc. both owned and financed subprime lenders. Others, like RBS Greenwich Capital Investments Corp. (part of the Royal Bank of Scotland), Swiss bank Credit Suisse First Boston, and Goldman Sachs & Co., were major financial backers of subprime lenders."
If you hande a kid a sharp knife or matches, you can't blame him for cutting or burning himself. Most of the people in our great country are not as educated as the audience on ZH. When some real esate broker and/or loan agent tells them they should buy "so they aren't priced out of the market" and because "look at how much money they will make as owners of real estate (its gone up 20% a year!)" and then tells the sap that they can get them a loan (my dog could have gotten a loan in 2007), do you honestly think someone was going to say no? The banks were in the ORIGINATION business; that's how they made money! They didn't give a rats ass about who borrowed and who bought the shit. They were like drug pushers with addicts. MAKE MONEY NOW!...that was their mantra.
Must have gotten junked by an intern of the Fed or one of our elected officials or a liberal idiot.
What set off the 14,00 to 6,500 plunge was bankers in trouble over mortgages, well here it comes around again!
I can't figure this one tho...really we need to default and deleverage and get this over with, but this just seems to freeze and zombify everything, yeah, certain companies will crash, but what happens with house prices if everyone underwater can squat and not pay a dime.
Moneymutt you're spot on!
A question. Does this story constitute a Black Swan? Like sub prime we knew this was out there but did not pay it much (collective) attention. Now it center stage. And No One knows where it might go.
It certainly could go a very far way. It could destroy all secured financing. It could destroy the notion of "I promise to pay". It might destroy housing and the banks. It could destroy Fannie Freddie and FHA.
It's a fucking Swan. A black one......
I think so. I think the securitization/transfer/standing/chain of title issues have the biggest possible black swan impact - because NY Trust law is firm that these notes cannot be transferred post-trust creation. And, more importantly, this could impact the chain of title on the millions of homes that were securitized - whether a borrower is delinquent or not (takes away the 'squatter' meme).
And it might mean that the banks will have to buy back all of those notes not transferred at par - which they clearly will not be able to afford. And finally, there is no excuse for the banks not to have properly conveyed the notes to the RMBS appropriately. All it takes is doing your job. There are no immediately available scapegoats here...
I see you over there every now and then, but nakedcapitalism has had some good articles on this whole mess...
No Black Swan. P.S. all the entities you reference are already destroyed.
plus the numbers aren't that big, relatively speaking. 2 million foreclosures so the face amount of the mortgage notes is probably around $500 billion. that's only 10% of the fannie/freedie portfolio; plus all those notes are not going to zero.
It's no black swan. It's just the latest snafu in a never ending saga of bad banking. The bad banking wasn't a black swan either. Lots of people saw what was going on and knew it could only end in disaster. A few tried to warn us but who listened?
I saw the loose loan policies were crazy, two years before the big blowup but I assumed the big banks, government regulators and borrowers knew something I didn't and everything would be OK. Well it turns out they didn't and we aren't.
Black Swans are myth destroyers.
...TooBigTooFail
...We're all in this together
... A "nation of laws" makes us different.
...A democracy since 1776/1782.
...A Free Market is the fairest system.
...Corporations are persons.
...Corporations have the rights of persons.
...Will be pie-in-the-sky when you die.
...Equal justice under the law.
so agree Bruce...when somewhat uncommon, but quite predictable crisis happens, the politicians and businessmen in charge always say "who could have seen this coming" when in fact many credible people predicted exactly what happened...I saw housing bust coming, simply because I worked in construction and was not delusional. I saw lawyers saying they had gotten recisions on mortgages over 3 years ago based on this type of fraud...what a surprise this getting exposed on mass scale.
Shock and Awe? Sound conversant?
The only way to shock and awe the elite in November is vote out all incumbents. See, at least 33 senators are up for re-election. Vote every single one of them out of the office. That shall shock and awe the DC and save the nation!
What the odd that will happen? Just look at the forum this message appears!!!!
This country is doomed, busted, done, defunct, gone and gone.
So how would this whole mortgage shell game work in Canada? It would not. We have a land title office (government) it registers things against the land title (imagine that!). Let's say you have a mortgage with TD Bank when you buy your home. It would be registered as a first lean against the title. Let's say you take out a second mortgage (because you are an idiot) it would be a second lean against the title. Let's say TD Bank wants to sell your mortgage. They can't because the mortgage would have to be re-registered against the title at the land title office and guess what...first come first served...it would now fall BEHIND the second mortgage. The second mortgage would move into first place and the "moved (sold)" mortgage would have to come behind it.
As someone who has been in court against Wells Fargo for the last two years on borderline criminal reverse mortgage for variable annuity schemes (read 2 non-bank people had criminal issues) - the banks are VERY powerful in court. There is a huge mountain of pro-bank case law thanks to the federal system - the same crooks that corrupted the freedom of slaves to make Corporations virtual people. If you got the money, then you have the debt. Period. All these games about original deeds (my case had a FORGED deed of trust and other loan docs), the note being sold for MBS and the like do not amount for much. Considering that you can still find unmarketed OREO everywhere and the OCC is encouraging banks to be landlords, its all a purely economics game. Chances are if you are radically underwater, just stop paying and ask for forbearance and keep the HOA and property taxes current, and the banks will not bother you for a year or more. Maybe the new owner will keep you as renter. Bank the cash for a year and find something else. Everyone's credit will be the new normal of 400. Do not get emotional on real estate. Nobody wins in a knife fight. The only exit plan is to set fire/EMP the county recorder's office. Now would that be an act of a terrorist or a freedom fighter?
Terrorist.
My credit score will still be 800, debt-skipping a-hole.
that's an easy one: terrorist.
ever hear of individual responsibility?
I've been asking here and other places all day where this story went. Last night even Kudlow thought it was horrible - now he thinks that everything is in place for wonderful skyrocketing growth less than 24 hours later.
It's a story that will end up on Frontline where smart people will shake their heads and wonder how could this happen. Other than that, it won't be much of anything.
Keep easing and printing and nothing else matters...for now.
Keep easing and printing and nothing else matters...for now.
Yep, aint the truth
http://donsedy.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/in-the-stock-market-nothing-else-matters/
I believe the MSM got the message to bury the story until they figure out a fix or a plan to put humpty-dumpty back together again. They might be able to suppress or white-wash it for a bit, but they can't just put the genie back in the bottle...
"Housing" and "Government" are like peanut butter and jelly. All the Kings horses and all his lawyers as well cannot change this. "This is government business now as always." You all are going off the rails on the crazy train called real estate and the bottom line is "you don't get it" as it relates to the banks. simply put it's the government itself in full panic mode because "these real estate people are the reason they got elected" and, well...they should be worried (this includes the President himself, BTW.) having said that "there's nothing a plain old fashioned price control can't cure." governments will simply issue orders keeping people in homes (if they are still there of course) and then subsidizing in order to create a price support. it costs "trillions" for sure--but i don't see this area having any impact on interest rates whatsover. insofar as CREDIT expansion goes well...good luck even with perfect credit gettin a loan but hey, who honestly believes in private markets, right? in many ways we're better off for that in my opinion but hey, what do i know...
"If they choose to (once again) back the banks, then Ben will be authorized to drive the $USD to pennies."
Both paths lead to the dollar to pennies.
This could be the "black swan" event.
No-interest loans offered to jobless homeowners
Unemployed homeowners in Massachusetts will be able to take out interest-free loans of up to $50,000 to help them make mortgage payments, under a $1 billion federal program unveiled today in Roxbury by the US Department of Housing and Urban Development.
http://www.boston.com/business/ticker/2010/10/no-interest_loa.html?comments=all
They always run the market into a high to dump as much as they can before a major top. Today looked like a start
here is harvey's blog. scroll down to sen. casey's request re. the fraudulent mortgage gift card to the cartel. presently sitting on the hand puppet's desk awaiting his scratch.
http://harveyorgan.blogspot.com/
BTW, Karl is in the "deflationary" camp because he is correct. Unless you believe general price and employment levels are sustainable and this game can go on forever, you have to admit that this is all leading to a classic deflationary collapse. Who is going to buy gas at 35 bucks a gallon? A hell of a lot less people. Who is going to buy anything at 600+% price increases. A hell of a lot less people. Prices will collapse. Metals along with it. Gold is as propped up as a big screen TV at best buy. People just aren't under the delusion that a big screen TV will help them when when it all falls apart.
You are confusing regular inflation with confidence in the currency. This isn't the inflation of the 1970's. This is the start of a period when commodity producers want anything other than FRN's for their products. They are losing confidence in the relative strength of the dollar. Without confidence, internationally and nationally, a FRN is nothing more than a piece of cotton paper with pretty ink-work on it. It doesn't matter if people cannot pay the price in FRN. The smart ones will be able to pay the price in "junk silver" or small gold coins or fractional gold bars. The price in FRN's will be meaningless when they are as rare (and trusted) as used toilet paper or blades of grass. Gold isn't propped up, the "dollar" is collapsing out from under it. The only way the dollar price of gold will collapse is if confidence is restored and the Fed stops printing. Think that's gonna happen?
An example: before the Weimer collapse, a single ounce of gold could buy about 200 loaves of bread. At the height of the crisis: 200 loaves. After the crisis and a new currency: 200 loaves. The price at the height of the crisis translated into about 30 trillion marks or so. The price in marks was rediculous and irrelevent, but the price in gold terms remained the same.
Got gold (and silver)?
Today the Thai Baht has breached 29/$. I cannot imagine what Americans are going to be paying soon for everything as the Fed debases the currency in their efforts to protect their banking cartel. Personally I can't see the mess getting resolved in any reasonable length of time.
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