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Newt Gingrich Pushing Bill To Allow States To File Bankruptcy Allowing Them To Renege On Pension And Benefit Obligations
Some unpleasant news for pensioned workers who believe that their insolvent state will be able to afford ridiculous legacy pensions in perpetuity. According to Pensions and Investment magazines, Newt Gingrich is pushing for legislation that will allow insolvent states to be taken off bailout support and file bankruptcy, in the process allowing them to renege on pension and other benefit obligations promises to state workers. And if there is anything that will get government workers' blood pressure to critical levels, it is the threat that money they had taken for granted is about to be lifted, courtesy of living in an insolvent state (pretty much all of them). And obviously what this means for equity investors in assorted muni investments is that a complete wipe out is becoming a possibility, as Meredith Whitney's prediction, which everyone was quick to mock and ridicule, is about to come back with a vengeance.
From P&I:
Proponents of the measure — which include Americans for Tax Reform, a Washington lobby group that fights tax increases — said the legislation is desperately needed to clear the way for struggling states to slash costs before they go belly up, and should be regarded as a preemptive move that could preclude the need for massive federal bailouts.
“It's in the short-term and long-term interests of government workers and taxpayers to start those reforms now, rather than having to pick up the pieces after a crash landing,” ATR President Grover Nor-quist said in an interview.
“We are working with people inside and outside of Congress on this issue,” said Joe DeSantis, a spokes-man for Mr. Gingrich, whom Mr. DeSantis said is considering a bid to be the Republican presidential candidate in 2012.
Sur enough, the response has been fast, furious, and very vocal:
State and union officials vow to fight the bankruptcy initiative, which they fear would undermine state autonomy and be used to reduce promised benefits to government workers.
“I am unaware of any public pension plan that is requesting federal assistance,” said Keith Brainard, NASRA research director.
“Exaggerated reports on the financial condition of public pension plans are being used as a scare tactic to justify federal intervention,” Mr. Brainard added.
Said Mark McCullough, a spokesman for the Service Employees International Union, Washington: “This is another right-wing attack on behalf of their (the GOP's) anti-middle class, big-business donor base.
“It would amount to not just another attack on working families, but an attack on everyone from investors to retirees who would see the economy reel from the ripple effects of state bankruptcy as they pursue the goal of making American workers expect no better pay or benefits than workers in the developing world.”
So far, proponents of the legislation said they have not yet recruited a congressional sponsor for the proposed measure. “We're still shopping for the guy who is going to carry it,” Mr. Norquist said.
Nonetheless, union executives are concerned that the proposal — which has been promoted on conservative websites recently — is part of a well-orchestrated and hitherto underground campaign now surfacing as Republicans settle into leadership positions in the new Congress.
“This idea carries major negative financial implications for the states, their creditors and the companies that do business with them,” said Charles Loveless, director of legislation for the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, Washington. “A state going into bankruptcy would send shock waves through the states and could very well undermine our fragile national economic recovery,” he said.
“It is incredible to me that proponents of this portray themselves as advocates of state rights when what they're really doing is driving states into the ground,” Mr. Loveless added. “It's clearly in an effort to renege on public employee collective bargaining contracts.”
The good news: not all states will file for bankruptcy if this proposal becomes law. Just most.
But Mr. Norquist said that, assuming the proposal becomes law, not every state would file for bankruptcy — a right that municipal governments already have under Chapter 9 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code.
“If you don't have this (a state bankruptcy process), you have New York, Illinois and California running off the rails because there's no way to fix their problems ... They've got these contracts with government workers that you can't alter,” Mr. Norquist said.
He said restructuring benefit obligations doesn't necessarily mean cutting the amount of money a retiree gets; it could involve freezing a public defined benefit plan and enrolling new employees in a defined contribution plan.
Look for some more serious outflows from muni funds, and notable volatility in muni bonds, as this latest challenge to the state bailout "certainty" is digested.
courtesy of @Biz_Reporter
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Then stop pissing and moaning about it and get out and change who is running your community. Elect those who will change your community and state the way you want it to be. Or do it yourself. But your whining is sad and pathetic.
First you complain about the "reign of terror" and now you encourage it? Not very consistent.
Must I spell it out? Change WITHIN THE RULE OF LAW, WITHIN ORDERED LIBERTY, WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF RATIONALE PUBLIC DEBATE. Geez.
Ordered liberty is an oxymoron. Please learn what words mean.
States have to balance their budgets, the federal gov't does not (obviously). That's the difference why State issues are coming to a head and the federal gov't is pushing theirs into the future. That is the reason a DOD pension will be paid and a state/county/city may not be. Either way it's bankruptcy for both.
on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 10:20
#863618
There will always be money to pay Federal pensions including those of DOD employees. Imho!
However, there is no money to pay the state level bureaucrats 6-figure pensions as is the case in California. There is no money to afford firemen pension income at the age of 55! It's all a big fantasy.
The reset happened in 2008 and we're still reeling from it, sifting through the debris and rebuilding. At first it was "business as usual" for most on the State and Federal level but now they're bound to see the same light that everyone else does.
America will be leaner and meaner. That's a good thing!
************************************************************************************
America will be what?
Wall Street will be FATTER!
and then....
America will be LEANER!
"There is no money for anyone. I think it would do well for everyone who expects a government check at some point in his life to begin adjusting to reality"
Good advise for those who CAN adjust. No reasonable person would trust government retirement promises today. What of those who retired before the problem was obvious? There are lots of folks in the 70-90 age range receiving 20-30K federal pensions who are not eligible for social security and have no way to adjust. Many of them are struggling now. I suppose they can just die?
I really don't know how many times this can be said. There is no money. Right or wrong, fair or unfair... it doesn't enter the equation. There is no money. We can print some more and pay everyone, but we might as well print a million FRNs for every man, woman, and child and declare the economy a success.
It is going to be catastrophic for many, especially for those who have no families to collaborate with. But it is going to happen. Your argument is that it cannot happen because it would be horrible.
That is not an argument. That is a plea.
There is alot of printing going on allready, mostly to further enable parasitic financial entities to pay outrageous bonuses to uncharged criminals who are hardly struggling. So yes, if you are going to print anyway, my "plea" would be to change the beneficiaries to those actually in need, who cannot otherwise help themselves, and whom we have allready contracted to support.
I agree that honoring these contracts is unsustainable; at some point the printing, even if redirected and reduced, either stops or becomes worthless. Stopping the printing is tough, but understandable; what is horrible is printing to support financial criminals at the expense of the helpless.
One way or another, a transition to sustainable living will take place. You are correct, it is likely to be catastrophic for many, that is almost inevitable at this point. I wonder if many realise how catastrophic.
They could be transferred into social security where the average payout is something like 12k to 15k. It won't pay the mortgage on a McMansion or buy a new car every couple of years but millions live on it.
That could work in parts of the US, but not here (rural central NH). Few of these folks have McMansions and most (who have not lost their houses to divorce or illness) have no mortgage. Mostly they save and buy a new car every 10 years or so for cash. A car is necessary for most as there is little public transportation in most of the state, even taxis are rare.
Yearly expenses work out approx:
Property taxes on modest house ~6K
Car (depreciation+ins+maint+6Kmi+reg/insp) ~4K
Heat ~3K
Fed income tax ~3K
Electric ~2.4K
Propert maint ~2K
Property taxes are high but there is no state sales or income tax. For most there is no water or sewer bill either and well and septic increase house value ~12K. We have the highest electric rates in the country, and pumping water from deep wells uses quite a bit of it. Some with land still cut and split their own wood and avoid the heating bill altogether. Buying wood and using it as primary heat cuts the heat bill in half. Property maint. assumes DIY snow removal, sanding and trash hauling, if not add 1-2K.
At this point we are well over what SS pays without considering food, clothing, health care, phone, cable, internet, personal items etc. Moving into one of the few cities (assuming the house sells--not lately!) doesn't reduce expenses as rents are over 1K per mo. and a car is still needed in most cases, but it would fund them for most. Most of them want their neighbors, chickens, bees, pets, gardens, backyard deer hunting, maple syrup or whatever and will not move till they drop anyway. Those with a partner on SS are doing OK, it is the survivors and divorced w/o nearby employed family who are hurting. Course they should sell the house, (where possible), put most of the ~200K into silver, and move in with family. Good luck convincing them.
In some cases married children have lost jobs and houses and moved back in with retired parents and the whole clan is struggling. Some old farmhouses have ten cars outside and few leave in the morning. Wonder how long till these start squatting in nearby abandoned, or never sold houses.
There is no money for anyone. I think it would do well for everyone who expects a government check at some point in his life to begin adjusting to reality.
With all due respect( and thank your husband for his serrvice pls),adjusting to this NEW reality at 50-60yrs old, will not go well,trust me.
Senior citizens vote, but they don't riot angrily.
But the youth...
And the biggest rebels? It will be Jonathon & Catherine, the soon to retire, private sector workers (the archetypes about whom Gonzo Lira wrote an excellent essay on ZH), who after working truly hard for decades, raising a family, viewed the ineffiencies, corruption, graft, waste and financial crimes and treason drain away their wealth and rob their children of opportunities.
After witnessing so much of this, they will reach their breaking point at some time, and they will literally opt out of the whole 'participation thing,' and this quiet revolution WILL break the back of the beast.
DoD will get theirs too.
What does this mean? Does it mean that military and civilian employees of DoD will get their pensions, as set forth in law? Or does it mean that they will get injured or killed, or have their pensions taken away? To use the term "get theirs" results in an unclear message.
No, the civilians/contractors I can't speak of. The military personnel are in line just like everybody else, only they are in the back of the line. Their "cuts" will occur once either we're through fighting wars all over the place, or once the empire collapses.
The whole benefits system is a pretty powerful marketing tool for the government to use for recruiting. It only makes sense that they should keep it sweet for as long as possible. Just my opinion, though.
I wonder what several hundred thousand trained military personnel will do if, in retirement, they suddenly cannot pay their bills because THE PEOPLE decided the government could not pay their pensions? Hmmm. . . does not sound like a recipe for ordered liberty.
Another point of view would have it be that the politicians they listened to, instead of the constitution they swore to uphold, failed them. Of course, it all still comes back to the people, for they elected the politicians. But then again, military personnel also have the right to vote.
"It's a huge shit sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite."
-Lt. Lockhart, Full Metal Jacket
Watauga,
You surely know what that means.
It means you do not piss off a well trained military by screwing them to death, and not funding their pensions.
Even the Gvt is not stupid.(totally)
Could you elaborate that point? That seems it could be misunderstood.
The way I see it, they will get their "cuts" too. Just like everybody else. However, since they are the lifeblood of the empire, they should be last. But, don't count on that.
@walkure
When the well runs dry, every bucket comes up empty, even the olive drab one labeled "DOD".
Divide and Conquer. The important thing is that the transfer of wealth to the oligarchs continues unabated.
Next up: Social Security.
Bingo. Divide and conquer has always worked.
Tell you what Newt .... when you and the rest of the political leeches give up your pensions, paychecks, kickbacks, bribes, expense accounts and every other damn thing you have sucked out of the system first then we can talk.
Until then shut the fuck up.
No, I am not a state worker.
If only we could all get on the teat of the bankster/FIRE economy.
I'm not a gov worker, either. But the larger game is impossible to miss.
+1
Seems like the torture house out of "The Princess Bride". SO many ways to hurt, one easy to heal and they will not do it.
Release and detachment is the lesson of the times.
Remember watching the Carlton Sheet's look alike, Muni Bond informercial and wondering when I'd be rich enough to participate. It was a well sold story. Just like Real Estate. And both are tottering together.
Too weird that they discuss bankruptcy of a sate just like that of an individual (such different stakes) and the strange thing was, in the US anyways, is that they innundated you with "debt/Credit" after a chapter 11 because you were supposedly reformed.
One after another for the USA, crazy to sit out here and watch/see/hear.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/wisdom-for-warriors-2/
NO REASON TO READ IT ALL!
THIS IS THE STORY IN SHORT:
Next up, nationalizing 401ks.
It would only be fair.
The people who have spend it all and thus supported the economy by constantly spending 120% of their paycheck deserve it!!
YES BROTHER! WHAT'S YOURS IS NOW ACTUALLY MINE!!!
and remember!
THERE IS NO I IN NATIONALIZE!!
and if you think there is YOU ARE NOT A PATRIOT AND SHOULD BE SHOT!
EXACTLY! For all the cheerleaders for such proposals, keep in mind that you are next. After all, they came for Danton. They came for Robespierre. They will come for you, too. You think that taking away pensions earned by State and Federal employees over 30 years of sacrifice is a good thing? If so, I hope you cheerlead as much when they come for your IRA, your 401K, your 529 plan, your prepaid tuition plan, your safe deposit box, your bank account. . . Get the point yet?
YES YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!
Federal employees FIRST!!
I know a RED parasite when I see one.
You're a fear monger, pal.
The strategy of union thugs and other public service sector "community organizers" has always been intimdation of the masses.
Don't fan that constitution in my face, pal. Your class is so above and beyond the constitution, it's sickening. You deserve to get cut.
Sacrifice? WTF?
Federal employees outearn private sector and the fedgov is chock full of diversity hires who are utterly incompetent. There is no sacrifice going on. They're lazy morons.
the IRA I paid into. The 401k as well. There is NO MONEY IN THERE promised from ANYBODY ELSE. A ponzi pension isn't analogous to something that you actually PAY into.
Amen! This guy doesn't seem to understand the difference between a 401k that YOU put your ACTUAL EARNINGS into and a pension plan based on promises of future payments.
Taking a 401k is stealing from the person who earned and saved the money -- i.e. was responsible for himself. Reducing these pensions is simply admitting that the political promises made were unfulfillable. The person with the 401k put all of the money in out of his salary -- i.e. he sacrifised spending today in order to save for his retirement. The pension holder put little, if anything, in and made absolutely no sacrifice of current income for future use. The pension holder saved nothing for his retirement, but relied on unfulfillable promises of politicians -- i.e. politicians paid for the teachers, firefighters, and police officers (union) votes by promising them the stars on the backs of the private sector even though the private sector would be unable to give them the stars.
I see we have another ignorant poster here. What you did with your 401K was exactly what the public sector employee did with her choice to go into government service--delayed gratification. Take less now to be paid more, securely, later. It's the same.
You completely MISUNDERSTAND what public sector employment is about in terms of personal finance. The public sector employee foregoes a large portion of his wages in the present to preserve them for retirement. In this sense, it is exactly like your contribution to the 401K.
Don't be angry with public sector employees. Be angry with yourself for demanding all the services and support that you hired those employees to perform for you. Maybe you shouldn't have hired them to mow your soccer fields, or to pick up your trash, or to defend your liberties in foreign wars. . . And if you think that YOU are not responsible, think again. YOU elected those who made the decisions, in public forums, to provide these services and to hire these employees. THEY ARE YOUR EMPLOYEES, for God's sake, and YOU OWE THEM what you owe them.
You are the arrogant, ignorant, entitled one. You did not delay any gratification. Public sector workers are paid as much or more than their counterparts in the private sector. Just look at Catholic schools vs. public schools. Most public school teachers' salaries are much higher than those of Catholic school teachers. Not only do Catholic school teachers receive lower salaries, but they have to save for their own retirements. They don't get pensions. Public school teachers and other public employees did not sacrafice anything. Just like any other contract that can't be paid, this should be handled through bankruptcy where those whom are owed money divide up what there is based on the seniority/priority of their claims.
Public union employees were bribed by politicians with the promise of future benefits in addition to their already bloated salaries for their votes. The politicians knew or should have known that these benefits would be unfulfillable, as should have the public employees. The politicians didn't care because they knew that they'd likely be out of office before the bill came due. The public sector employees are just greedy. They want the private sector employees -- who earn less, work longer before retirments, save for their own retirements, and pay for their own healthcare etc. -- to treat them like royalty for their entire lives for their public "service". The truth is we can do with out all of the services you describe (except national security which is within the purview of the federal government). Privatize them all!
I've paid more than my fair share of taxes for the few services I receive. I send my kids to private school as my parents sent me and their parents sent them. I'd gladly pay a private hauler to pick up my trash, the people using the soccer fields can pay to have them mowed, etc. I elected the people who imposed these obligations on me? No, I did not. I've voted for candidates who promised smaller government. These oblibations were forced on me by others against my will. Unions and government officials are in league together rubbing each others backs -- more benefits for votes. No one has looked out for the interests of the taxpayers.
As far as "owing" the money, if the money is not there, it can't be paid. You can't get blood from a stone. Most people in the private sector lost a great deal of their own private retirement savings when the market crashed a few years ago. They are now trying to save and make up for those losses. Public sector employees don't expect to take any cuts to their pensions even though the market went down. Too bad. You are just having happen to you what already happened to those in the private sector. Welcome to the real world!
As far as national security goes, that is one area that the federal government actually has Constitutional authority to engage in. As long as what they do is Constitutional and the price of the service can be justified, I'll gladly pay my federal taxes for those services -- i.e. I don't feel I have an obligation to pay for naked body scanners and gropings TSA officials who violate my 4th amendment rights or wars that have not been officially declared by Congress pursuant to the Constitution, or to have military bases all around the world.
Believe whatever you want jerkoff. If your employer bankrupts and your pension goes bye-bye and you end up living in a refrigerator box, you deserve it, end of story.
Trav, I like your posts, but seriously, why don't you go out get a government job if we all make eleventy kazillion dollars per second for no work? The fact is, if it paid that well, everybody in these 57 states would be a public employee, instead of just 110% of them.
duplicate
if that's what it's gonna take to snap fat, complacent americans out of their comfort zone and start a LONG OVERDUE revolt against this oligarchy, i'm all for it.
Hey, Wat, I agree with you in principle, but it seems like you're missing the fact that "they" already came for most of the country.
The private sector moved away from pensions. Most private employees don't get them. They get a 401K plan sold by a for-profit bank with limited options about who gets to charge them fees on their "retirement savings."
Working a job is not "30 years of sacrifice." It's just what people have to do to survive. Plenty of folks gladly would have worked 30 years in one position if they'd been able to, but market dynamics have made employment stability a thing of the past.
I can understand the frustration, and believe me when I say I'm not AT ALL interested in fucking over retired public workers. But don't expect anyone to cry a river about this particular injustice. There's been more than enough injustice going around for DECADES.
well said
The private sector's risk, particularly with respect to pensions, is exactly why many talented people who could have chosen to shoot for the moon in the private sector chose, instead, to accept being earthbound in order to ensure security in their long-term future.
It is the grasshopper and the ant story, you see. The private sector hard-charger, at aged 24, sees glory and riches in the private sector, and a fraction of the pay and boredom in the public sector. He, like the grasshopper, lives for the moment. He enjoys his present, but is woefully unprepared for the future.
The public sector guy, at 24, said, "I am going to forego a chance at the big money and all its glory in order to secure my long-term future." He works hard for 30 years doing exactly what the taxpayer, through representative government, asks him to do. He SECURES his future by foregoing the chance at big money in the private sector at aged 24.
Now, the grasshoppers are swarming, trying to eat the ants hard-earned stores of savings (the taxpayer trying to renege on his pension obligation to the ant).
So many ZH posters want to think they are liberty-loving, free-enterprise, anti-government warriors. Bullshit. Most of these wannabes don't have a clue about any of that. They parrot their masters from some talk radio show or weird website. Anyone interested in liberty, private property, and free enterprise KNOWS that it rests upon the foundation of the rule of law. Without that foundation, there is no ordered liberty, there is no private property, there is no free enterprise. Those who would renege on their obligations, as taxpayers, to pay the public servants who worked for them for 30 years, are not interested in ordered liberty. They are interested solely in their own, micro-level bank accounts. What they fail to see is that once the government gets away with something like this, being cheered from the sidelines by these internet goons, it will take their micro-level bank accounts, their IRAs, their 401Ks, their safe deposit boxes. Think your gold is safe? Your guns? Your right to teach your child about God? Your right to read what you want and write what you want? You poor, poor, ignorant fools.
You have not read about the French Revolution, your are Jacobins, and you are the idiots on the guillotines running the Reign of Terror at the behest of monsters like Robespierre. But they eventually came even for him, so understand that no one is safe from the falling blade.
Oooookay.
You're very badly out of touch with reality, friend. I did my best, but your response is to tell me about what history I know.
Good luck to you.
Won't any of your liberty-loving, free-enterprisers answer the questions:
Do you think that federal and state employees pay taxes on income?
Do you think that federal and state employees contribute to their own pension plans?
Do you honestly think that the lines, if any, should be drawn between those who work in the public sector and those who work in the private sector?
Do you believe that active duty military personnel are employees of the federal government?
Do you believe that those who served on active duty, and retired under an explicit, legal retirement plan, should now be deprived of the benefits of that plan?
Do you think that veterans who are retired due to disability, including those wounded in combat, should be deprived of veteran's disability retirement pay?
Do you think state employees, such as teachers, firemen, and policemen, should, after 30 years of work for the state that was possible only because of great personal sacrifice, should now be deprived of the pension payments to which they are entitled, by law?
Do you know what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you care what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you know what a Jacobin is?
Do you know what happened in France during the Reign of Terror?
Are you familiar with the U.S. Constitution? If so, do you support that Constitution?
You're an infant, but ok:
Yes. Yes. No. Yes. No. No. This is a bullshit question because it assumes a false premise, but I don't think ANYONE should be deprived of agreed-upon pension payments. Yes. Not really--it's just a term and hasn't been taken seriously for quite awhile. Yes. Yes. Yes. Most of it, yes.
Here's the problem: you're lashing at out people who are pointing out some simple realities to you. This is suddenly a big issue because it affects you and/or yours, but what I am telling you is the majority of the people in the USA have ALREADY BEEN THROUGH THIS EXACT SAME FUCKING OVER.
It wasn't long ago when private corporations were "renegotiating" the pension plans contractually obligated in order to make good on bonds, and the workers lost on those renegotiations for the benefit of the big investors.
You're not winning converts by being a dick about it. Sorry this had to happen to you too, just realize that it's already happened to a lot of people. I'm actually on your side, but you're too pissed off to realize it.
Now grow up and have a look at what you're really upset about.
You, sir, are a statist troll.
Your fervent and presumably self-centered demands that ALL government pensions and obligations be paid, in the face of a reality that demands otherwise, show you to be either woefully naive and ignorant, or agenda-driven and disingenuous.
you've got this and the lessons of history exactly backwards
So you are telling me that it is my responsibility to take my "micro-level bank account" and pay for your pension, before I perform my duty to my wife and child by providing them with a home and food?
Many Americans in the private sector are struggling...losing homes and paying higher food prices just to survive, but I have to pay pensions to people who get to retire early? How much is my obligation to these public sector employees...50%, 75%, or 100%? They do such a good job, why would I be upset? I am dealing with three bureaucracies right now and I can tell you that in all of them (Colorado, Arizona, and Washington States) everyone is incompetent and/or lazy.
I pay my taxes without much complaint, but I don't see how politicians making empty promises to what amounts to a loyal voting block of public employees has to do with me. The pensions promised have bought off these employees and kept our "honest" representatives in power. The promises were made knowing full well the Ponzi couldn't be fulfilled.
+Infinity!
Take your complaints up with your representatives. Don't bore me with them. I have my own problems dealing with my representatives. If you don't like what your state employees are doing in your three states, fix it.
Again, no one wants to answer the core questions:
Do you think that federal and state employees pay taxes on income?
Do you think that federal and state employees contribute to their own pension plans?
Do you honestly think that the lines, if any, should be drawn between those who work in the public sector and those who work in the private sector?
Do you believe that active duty military personnel are employees of the federal government?
Do you believe that those who served on active duty, and retired under an explicit, legal retirement plan, should now be deprived of the benefits of that plan?
Do you think that veterans who are retired due to disability, including those wounded in combat, should be deprived of veteran's disability retirement pay?
Do you think state employees, such as teachers, firemen, and policemen, should, after 30 years of work for the state that was possible only because of great personal sacrifice, should now be deprived of the pension payments to which they are entitled, by law?
Do you know what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you care what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you know what a Jacobin is?
Do you know what happened in France during the Reign of Terror?
Are you familiar with the U.S. Constitution? If so, do you support that Constitution?
Instead, they want to pretend they are liberty and private property and free enterprise loving men of great moral character who stand above everyone who works in the public sector. YOU elected representatives who hired us to do jobs that needed to be done. YOU, therefore, are legally and morally obligated by your representatives to meet your obligations. Just do it.
Why is it so hard to see that if this happened, your IRA, 401K, and bank accounts would be next. Why is that so difficult?
ANYONE who argues for taking away pensions, or even reducing pensions, of government retirees argues for tyranny, plain and simple. You like to think of yourselves as descendants of Sam Adams and Paul Revere, when, in fact, you are descendants of Lenin and Mao.
I didn't elect my representatives. I have but only one informed vote in a sea of ignorance and American Idol. I also would not vote for anyone from any party that chose to court public sector employees with lies and false promises.
I choose not to answer your questions due to the fact you equated the last person who did with the Tuscon nut job. My question for you is how much of my income should I give to various governments before I worry about my mortgage and feeding my kid?
If the government chooses to nationalize my 401k, its nothing more than what the banks did to most people in 2008. Did that affect pensions of public sector employees? How many people who were planning retirement from 2008 to present are still working well past the age of 65? How many state workers have forgone retirement? You act as if the "risk" people take to make more money in the private sector is real. The so-called risk is simply making a living for yourself and your family (and the families of public employees). This is not risk but reality. Having everything in life guaranteed to you is not real and it prevents innovation and progress. The government destroys innovation by ensuring safety. If I don't work hard and perform, my family starves. This drives me to perform at my job well as well as improve my performance.
I believe I will always work in some capacity, but I will never be able to doouble dip on the backs of the people that have to perform, and are not gaurenteed shit. I'm not a patriot and I sure as hell am not Mao or Lenin. Marx and Engle figured it out a while back, and their plan is in full affect here. Property rights have gone the way of most others(#1 of the Communist Manifesto). If you don't pay your taxes, it will be a person with a pension that comes and takes your property from you.
Again -- well said!
I hardly think a haircut in a cushy state or city pension is the tragedy you are making it out to be. If you think we should stand with you and protect your benefits because ours will be next, I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Most of our company-paid benefits were lost long ago. Now we're just grateful to be working at all. Welcome to the real world.
If anything, our privately funded 401ks and IRAs will be stolen to pay government worker benefits. We sacrifced today and saved from our actual earnings for our retirements. We didn't rely on promises. Taking our 401ks and IRAs is stealing once again from responsible people to bail out the irresponsible. We can't let this happen!
I GUARANTEE that if you steal the government employee pensions, you will lose every penny of savings you have, your house will be confiscated, and your liberty destroyed. GUARANTEED.
Obama? Is that you?
What is the foreclosure rate? What is the personal savings rate in the US? People have no savings, just Ipads, and they have been bought on missed mortgage payments and credit. .Gov employees are some of the only people in this country that don't have to worry about the fear you are trying to spread! How much of people's 401ks have been lost since 2008? How many jobs have been lost? People have nothing to lose.
I have a major problem paying for other peoples families while I am hustling to pay for my own. I have many family members that work for different government entities, and if their pensions are cut, I will try to help if they need it and I have the means, but NOT BEFORE MY WIFE AND KID ARE TAKEN CARE OF! I hope they would understand, but you just want to put a gun to my head and rob me to pay for them.
Liberty has been destroyed, or haven't you been to the airport lately? They take naked pictures of you or jam their hands down your pants. DHS is coming to a Walmart near you and big sis wants you report your neighbors. Is this the liberty you speak of?
Nobody is "stealing" pensions. That is Hyperbole. You can't steal something that someone hasn't earned. How much did employees pay into the pensions? Stealing would be taking 401k's and IRA's because people have chosen to place their money there that could have been used for other things. The money in the Pensions has never exsited, and if it did, point me to the vault it is held in.
Government employees have been lied to by politicians for votes for god's sake. The promises were false, just like when somone joins the Military. I
Let's have the gubmint pensions extorted under threat of losing liberty.
LOL.
Sold my house in 2007.
Believe whatever you want jerkoff. If your employer bankrupts and your pension goes bye-bye and you end up living in a refrigerator box, you deserve it, end of story.
And I get that because I saw what happened to alot of private industry. It wasn't my fault (I was still in school) and I did everything I could to slow the slide when I went out into the workforce. What really irks me is the prevailing attitude that this is 1) OK and 2) in any way representative of personal responsibility. People that do that are rationalizing running out on the check after a meal. But the absolute worst part is that the country, you included, will lose, not gain, from this, because the elites are manipulating you and what you still have is as good as gone once they finish robbing us blind.
Will this mean we won't get as much terrible, inefficient and rude government services, at 8x the cost of what competent negotiators could get fantastic services for, using efficient and modern methods and systems, using probably 1/20th of the number of personnel?
It means cops will be more susceptible to bribery, and generally less amicable.
It is deflationary for Florida real estate.
It is deflationary for fishing boats.
It is good for divorce lawyers.
Cops more susceptible to bribery? Give me a break.
When entitlements like pensions are taken away, I predict the attitudes of many LEO's will suffer. We may just find out if this prediction is correct. If it is, then you may just get your break, but it will cost you. Ever been to Mexico? Bring cash.
Or in lieu thereof, we can crack down on out of control pay to government employees, that now averages 2x what comparably skilled private sector employees make on average, and the 'retire w/full pension @ age 50+ (local units of state gov) to relatively early at units of federal gov' entitlements (when many full pensioned then go and work in the private sector or in another unit of government, and while getting a full pension), and ensure that law enforcement officials who are corrupt are removed and jailed under a very harsh 'zero tolerance of corruption' set of strictly enforced laws.
But then again, we could let law enforcement keep blackmailing American Taxpayers by threatening to 'go Mexican' unless they get everything they want, and then some.
I am being objective, not subjective.
As a nation, we have tough choices to make. Prepare accordingly, friend.
I know you were expressing an opinion, but from my vantage point, you have to understand that where I live, public employees (including police officers and the county sheriff, recently) are living very large by rigging their hours worked, just prior to retiring - and this is done with the help of co-workers.
In other words, there is a pattern of public employees working 50% or even 100% more overtime in the 3-5 years before retiring than in their previous years (overtime is only required if others call in sick, take vacations, etc.) and is compensated at 1 1/2 times normal salary.
So, we literally have public employees retiring with 120% pension of highest and last annual salary earned, full benefits (pension, medical, life insurance) for life, and in fact, the recent sheriff just got a lump sum of $700,000 in 'deferred compensation' on top of his $164,000 annual pension, as he decided to work in a different branch of government, on full salary.
In other words, the system is rife with abuse, at the expense of taxpayers, who are literally getting raped.
BINGO
exactly - there is a difference between getting rid of public/union workers and corruption.. unless there is no corruption in the private sector... they are always fully accountable and care about the public above profits
can't wait to have to go through a voice driven menu on the phone that my house is on fire or I've been shot since i couldn't pay the $900-$6000 subscription fees for real person service
the term corruption really has no meaning outside of the public sector. if i get ripped off by a manufacturer or a service provider, then thats theft or fraud, not corruption. however, a manufacturer or service provider that makes a practice of ripping people off won't stay in business long, unless they are propped up by some group that can use coercion to keep them in business...
a local private sewer company that processes 8 MGal of water a day has 3 employees. the county's public sewer department has 40 employees and processes 0.51 MGal per day, plus their lift stations almost always stink.
so, i agree with you, i also can't wait until the private sector takes over all of the services that the government now monopolizes.
o.k. Looks like I don't know much about this situation. The people who receive these pensions ........ did they contribute to the pensions ? was money taken out of their paychecks for 30 years in support of these pensions ? ......... if these pensions fail do they get their money back ? ...... what a sorry system for everyone.
I'm going to be lazy and not get any numbers for you. But I can tell you that the amount of money they put in compared with what they are to receive after they are retired is tiny. I live in Illinois, home of the golden parachuttes.
sure put a $1 in get 30 back and if you are really good at gaming the ponzi scam you should be able to get $90 back for every dollar
You truly are out of your mind if you believe this.
You truly are out of your mind if you believe this.
Really?
“Troopergate” Outrages Illinois TaxpayersFive-Million-Dollar Pensions Enjoyed by Illinois State Cops
You truly are out of your mind if you believe this.
You truly are out of your mind if you believe this.
I cannot speak for Illinois, nor should I. I don't live in Illinois, I don't pay taxes in Illinois, and I did not elect the Barack Obamas and Richard Daleys and Abraham Lincolns to office. However, like any other American citizen (hell, anyone, American or not), I can look at all government retirement plans and such on the internet.
What I find is that federal employees have two retirements plans. One is the standard, federal retirement plan--employee works 30 years and earns X% of high three years of base pay in retirement. This is true of both military and civilian employees. The other is the Thrift Savings Plan. This is, in essence, a 401K. The government contributes some small percentage to match employee contributions. The employee chooses to invest in a range of funds available under the plan. (The military employee does not get a matching contribution from the government under this plan.)
So, under the first plan, it would appear that the employee does not contribute a great deal of money, while under the second, he can contribute up to $16,500 per year (the government matches only the first few thousand). That said, keep in mind that many military and civilian employees, especially in the professions or who have exceptional or even unique skills, sacrifice pay up front for pay on the back end. In other words, they take less pay in the present so that, in retirement, they are secure. This was the bargain they made when they chose public sector employment.
Let's take a computer expert. The guy is a top guy in his field. He can work in the private sector, either as a consultant or with a corporation or in self-employed status. He can make, say, $200,000 per year doing this. Or, he can work for the federal government. He will make, say, $100,000 per year. However, he KNOWS that in retirement, he will be secure because of the plan he signed up for.
Let's look at the hot-running entrepeneur. He can take a chance and try to make $1,000,000 per year in the private sector. Or, he can go into management in the federal sector and make $120,000 per year. Does he choose to make the big money now and risk having little income in retirement (unless he builds that himself while making his $1M per year), or does he forsake the big money, work for a fraction of what he thinks he is worth, in order to secure his retirement?
These are choices people make all the time. They make them based upon the facts known to them. It is imperative that the government that made the promise to pay the retirement of these employees not back out on that obligation. To do so is to throw the rule of law into the toilet. Once our government does that, forget order, private property, and liberty. You will be left with only tyranny.
"To do so is to throw the rule of law into the toilet. Once our government does that, forget order, private property, and liberty. You will be left with only tyranny."
Where is the rule of law currently residing? I'm sure I seen it the other day when I flushed;). What private property? There is private property for the average Joe in the U.S.A.? Tell that to the guy that doesn't come up with his property taxes. So the current wool draped Tyranny is more palatable?
Think about the laws that keep piling up at the behest of those who lobby in D.C. I'm trying to remeber a quote that goes something like this.....Over the course of time greedy bastards make up laws that justify their pillaging of their fellow man.
For over 200 years, with the unfortunate exceptions of 1861-1865, 1917-1918, and 1932-1944, this nation has not known what it is like to live under something other than the rule of law. Don't sit at your computer screen, writing whatever you want, and pretend you live under anything but the rule of law. Try Revolutionary France. Try the Soviet gulag. Try Mao's Cultural Revolution. THEN get back to me about living under a regime that does not feature as its principal tenet the rule of law. Shit, you don't have a clue. You can vote for anybody you want. You can bank anywhere you want. You can pursue any job you want. You enjoy liberty and private property rights like no nation in history. But all you want to do is sit there and whine and complain that somebody in government "done you wrong." Grow up. Take some individual responsibility for yourself.
I hope your government pension (Ponzi scheme) payments are radically cut soon, and I hope it hurts like hell, you ignorant statist troll.
I hope your government pension (Ponzi scheme) payments are radically cut soon, and I hope it hurts like hell, you ignorant statist troll.
A statist would advocate the growth of state power to do things like seize pensions and renege on government obligations. So, who's the statist?
Yes,take some responsibility and dont rely on your neighbors paycheck for your paycheck.
If you, or your neighbor, or my neighbor, did not want to pay his obligations for services rendered, you and they should not have hired me to perform those services. The fact that you did, and the work was done, means you and they are not legally and morally obligated to pay what you owe under the bargain established at the time.
I agree that R.F., the S.G., and Mao, etc. were much worse than what we have.
Our law has been on a steady decline since it's inception, yes? Is there not less freedom with every layer added to "the law"? Fairness among men is simplistic and your beloved law is anything but.
Your figures are backwards... public sector pay would be $200k, private sector pay would be $100k. Been that way for the last 8 years...
he's not a math major...or history.
You can believe that all you want, but it's just not correct. I know managers in the federal government who make $150K per year who could make $300K+ in the private sector. I know of political appointees who come into public service and take a 500% pay cut. I know of career SES officials who could make, easy, $1M+ per year on the outside who settle for $180K in government service.
Look, there is a world of difference in actually making it consistently in the private sector than what you think the guy could make. WTF is your problem? dont you get it? You cannot have the number of employess (in the millions) in the .gov sector make what they think they deserve in the private sector. There is no underlying economy to support those pay packets.
and I know many managers in the federal sector making $160+ who simply couldn't hold a job in the private sector. The federal system is just an extension of the welfare state...
Everyone could see the pension scam couldnt continue! Mathematical impossibility!
Just like this Captcha...what is this -26 minus __ = eleventy? Im pretty sure eleventy isnt even a real number!
Everybody also can see that the derivative market cannot continue. We face multiple grave threats.
The TBTF's can set off a global financial apocolypse one minute from now. Literally.
States can be a problem in the next year . . . much longer if the FED provides the same support it has for the TBTF's. Government pensions would then likely be a problem a few years down the line.
Social Security will very likely be a problem 15-20 years from now.
So we have an absolutely immediate and potentially fatal problem in the TBTF, a very serious problem in the States in the intermediate term, and a very long-range problem in Social Security.
Look at the order in which these are being addressed. Do you see where this goes?
Well, if someone were holding a gun to your head, I suppose you would immediately attend to their concerns.
Well, if someone were holding a gun to your head, I suppose you would immediately attend to their concerns.
-
You can say that again!
LOL
-
This is what is needed to clear everything out. Looks like the government unions will be loading up on their molotov cocktails, polishing their brass knuckles, and taking some swings in the batting cage with their favorite Louisville sluggers.
and taking some swings in the batting cage with their favorite Louisville sluggers.
So I can finally go long on one of my local companies? God bless the recovery!!!
pitchforks with targets on them !
Irony: The bill would allow states to file bankruptcy and alleviate pension funding problems - which will effectively place millions and millions of individuals in the Pension Benefit Guaranty payroll (already $23 billion in the hole, yet another "successful" government department) - thus shoving the cost back to the federal government used to keep the federal government from bailing out the states.
WTF?
Is there any solution, to ANY problem, that doesn't flow back to money printed in Washington?
Yet more proof as to just how FUBAR are kids truly are.
Short answer, No.
It will all get monetized.
So, all the payouts will be decimated and then the dollars will be made worthless.
Gameboy reset in process, IMO.
New currency coming?
Do it.
Do it Now!
actually, If your patient enough, all those retired folk will meet their maker anyhow.
POISON THEIR SUNDAY CHICKEN!!
OLD PEOPLE MUST DY!*
* if a vain just poped, sarcasme isn't your thing.
Soylent Grey is old people? Kinda stringy.
Buy yourself a pressure cooker at a yard sale while they are still available man. Softens the toughest octagenarian.
Do you think that federal and state employees pay taxes on income?
Do you think that federal and state employees contribute to their own pension plans?
Do you honestly think that the lines, if any, should be drawn between those who work in the public sector and those who work in the private sector?
Do you believe that active duty military personnel are employees of the federal government?
Do you believe that those who served on active duty, and retired under an explicit, legal retirement plan, should now be deprived of the benefits of that plan?
Do you think that veterans who are retired due to disability, including those wounded in combat, should be deprived of veteran's disability retirement pay?
Do you think state employees, such as teachers, firemen, and policemen, should, after 30 years of work for the state that was possible only because of great personal sacrifice, should now be deprived of the pension payments to which they are entitled, by law?
Do you know what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you care what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you know what a Jacobin is?
Do you know what happened in France during the Reign of Terror?
Are you familiar with the U.S. Constitution? If so, do you support that Constitution?
Now you are simply trolling.
"Flag as Junk"
If you answer and he doesn't like the responses, you will apparently shoot up a Safeway. What a dick!
I see, so printing more fake money means TAXES will be paid on that imaginary BS, therefore problem solved! Wow brilliant.
It will never get out of committee much less get voted on and pass...aren't we due for some POMO action today?
"It will never get out of committee much less get voted on and pass"
That's right....do you think any of these aholes would ever vote on and pass anything that would deprive them of any of their unearned perks.......
hey public employee pigs , you and your pension ponzi scam are about to be Newtered
+ 1
Do you think that federal and state employees pay taxes on income?
Do you think that federal and state employees contribute to their own pension plans?
Do you honestly think that the lines, if any, should be drawn between those who work in the public sector and those who work in the private sector?
Do you believe that active duty military personnel are employees of the federal government?
Do you believe that those who served on active duty, and retired under an explicit, legal retirement plan, should now be deprived of the benefits of that plan?
Do you think that veterans who are retired due to disability, including those wounded in combat, should be deprived of veteran's disability retirement pay?
Do you think state employees, such as teachers, firemen, and policemen, should, after 30 years of work for the state that was possible only because of great personal sacrifice, should now be deprived of the pension payments to which they are entitled, by law?
Do you know what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you care what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you know what a Jacobin is?
Do you know what happened in France during the Reign of Terror?
Are you familiar with the U.S. Constitution? If so, do you support that Constitution?
It's hard to feel sorry for the public employees. They've been extremely self-serving, not to metion that they should have been smar enough to see this coming.
OTOH, bankruptcy involves a liquidation, so after the state-house is sold perhaps there will be a few pennies left over for them. LOL.
On a lighter note, make sure you see "The Social Contract". Good movie.
http://strikelawyer.wordpress.com
Next time the cops, firemen, or emts show up at your house to risk their lives to attend to your crisis, maybe they should stop and say, "Hard to feel sorry for this guy. He was clearly self-serving. Why should I risk my life for him and his children?" Have fun, then, with defeating the burglar, putting our the fire, or giving yourself mouth-to-mouth.
Right. Because we all know the state is the only organization capable of producing firemen, police, military, etc - and all with bloated pension plans!
Your comment is typical statist garbage.
Exactly.
have fun in a panic screaming to that outsourced cust serv rep that your house is on fire or you've just been shot.. or maybe it will be just an auto voice menu unless you pay the $900 subscription fees for a real person
yep - it HAS to be better right?
You must be baiting me, DPOS. But I'll respond in the off chance you are just misinformed.
The system as it exists now (fire, police, security) is a monopolistic enterprise funded solely by the state. Monopolies by nature of 100% market share can drive up costs and lower the quality of their products without fear of losing business to competitors. Therefore the situation you describe is much more likely in our current framework than any privatized environment.
I am all for the privatization of fire, police, military, and roadways.
dupe
Next time the cops, firemen, or emts show up at your house to risk their lives to attend to your crisis, maybe they should stop and say, "Hard to feel sorry for this guy. He was clearly self-serving. Why should I risk my life for him and his children?" Have fun, then, with defeating the burglar, putting our the fire, or giving yourself mouth-to-mouth.
I could swear that just happened somewhere. ?
Oh yea, now I remember it was the snowpocolypse in Jersey not two weeks ago.
They already feel like that. Right ?
Thats why this mother is going to burn to the ground !
again "PRINT" !
The cops and firemen have never been to my house, not in 56 years. I'll take my chances, besides I really do NOT like cops.
"they should have been smart enough to see this coming"???!!!
Ahhhhh....are you really saying that public servants should have been smart enough to see that the Oligarchs would systematically break-down the US financial system over a period of several decades through the adoption of self-serving domestic and foreign political policies, and through the implementation of a series of controversial economic theories that would ultimately lead to an unprecedented financial collapse - one of the net results being the bankrupting of individual States, and ultimately the US itself........is that what public servants should have been smart enough to see when they chose their career 20+ years ago????
Or did you type your comment before clearly thinking through the implications?
Great.
I suppose this will set a precedent that I can renege on my mortgage and health insurance bills, right?
How about my kids and their student loans?
I mean, if breaking promises receives the blessing of Washington for Banks, Insurers, Wall Street, and the dependent states - why not spread the butter to the common household? Aren't "We the People" the government?
Anything less would be an admission that we have no right to property, our money, or any liberty beyond the "right" to slave away for the overlords of the Kleptoligarchy, no?
Yes, we either have the rule of law or we don't. If we do, we may still have a fighting chance to preserve liberty, private property, and free enterprise. If we don't, then the law of the jungle rules, or tyranny does. Either way, there is no ordered liberty.
They need to do something that alters the existing system first. The setup where they don't hire more cops, fire, emts and just pay the existing senior and supervisory people to work OT (1.5x, 2.0x, even triple time) to cover nights, weekends and holidays is bad for many reasons. Not the least of which is accomplishing the actual service they are supposed to be providing. If there is a emergency, I want a guy there who is near the end of his 40 hour week and looking forward to the weekend. Not a guy who is on hour 115 of his schedule working 10 days straight x 12 hours then three days off.
2 guys working OT to avoid the cost of on-boarding and retaining an additional employee sounds cheaper, until those two guys retire at age 45, with fixed pensions paying out 90% of overtime inflated salaries. And you don't have that 30 year old employee with ten years experience you would have had getting experience at 40 hours per week.
This is one aspect of keeping obama care that I like. It should allow struggling employers, including the states and munis to weed out the cadilac plans that created this pension monster. The unions should not be able to fight it.
Give people cadilac benes -> you can't afford the right amount of staff.
If you can't afford the right amount of staff -> Their fixed pensions become over inflated.
Pensions and Benes aside, they bandie about "public workers only make $25/hr". True, except for the OT for most and 3 months paid time off the teachers get.
It is currently an in-traversable divide between how government and private sector operates their business. And they both need each other. (private sector pays taxes and the market the pension s are invested in, public sector provides a serve that lets thier customers feel safe going to the mall)
If Obamacare is the bridge then we should try it out.
There's a huge stink because the Illinois governor wants to hike the state income tax by 75%, from 3% to 5.25%. In California we pay 11% state income taxes. The Federal government is angry because people deduct their state taxes from their income and thereby the Feds get less. We're in a war between governments for who can fleece the middle class for the most money.
Leo , you there?
Great idea! And if the government hacks don't like it, give them the PATCO treatment and let them get real jobs.
Tell that to the Navy SEAL squatting in some crack in the ground in Afghanistan lasing targets you ungrateful jackass! And I invite you to tell him he doesn't have a real job.
I am going to take that post of yours as humor.
Otherwise, I utterly fail to see how some willing minion of the US military occupation forces in Afghanistan is doing anything whatsoever for which I should feel "grateful". "Resentful" would be more like it. Ditto for all those who illegally and immorally invaded Iraq, and who continue to occupy Japan, Korea, and Europe.
Screw the whole American Empire, and bring them all home already!
+++
Couldn't agree more. He's out there playing a real life version of Black Ops and loving every minute of it.
He doesnt have a real job shithead. He has a government job.
I think Navy SEALS are great guys, but very little of their skillset is going to translate into civilian jobs other than law enforcement or mercenary work. Anyone arguing differently is smoking crack.
And why the fuck do I care if he is lasing targets in Afghanstan? Half a trillion for a fucking war I could have solved with nuclear bombardment via cruise missiles.
Hey Newt: If AIG, BAC or C need more money, does your bill let them go BK too? :-)
The second law of thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics states that in general the total entropy of any system will not decrease other than by increasing the entropy of some other system. Hence, in a system isolated from its environment, the entropy of that system will tend not to decrease. It follows that heat will not flow from a colder body to a hotter body without the application of work (the imposition of order) to the colder body. Secondly, it is impossible for any device operating on a cycle to produce net work from a single temperature reservoir; the production of net work requires flow of heat from a hotter reservoir to a colder reservoir. As a result, there is no possibility of a perpetual motion system.
I respect the state workers and I respect their unions, but we simply can't afford to pay benefits and pensions that are out of line with economic reality.
Andrew Cuomo
In some cases, managers and employees have secured pensions beyond their original base salary. It is wrong, the people doing it know it's wrong, and we have to put an end to it.
Jerry Brown
I'm thinking of the Chinese trade surplus here.
I'm thinking things
are really upside down
when sense is coming out
from cuomo and brown
If that's what has to happen, so be it.
Do you think that federal and state employees pay taxes on income?
Do you think that federal and state employees contribute to their own pension plans?
Do you honestly think that the lines, if any, should be drawn between those who work in the public sector and those who work in the private sector?
Do you believe that active duty military personnel are employees of the federal government?
Do you believe that those who served on active duty, and retired under an explicit, legal retirement plan, should now be deprived of the benefits of that plan?
Do you think that veterans who are retired due to disability, including those wounded in combat, should be deprived of veteran's disability retirement pay?
Do you think state employees, such as teachers, firemen, and policemen, should, after 30 years of work for the state that was possible only because of great personal sacrifice, should now be deprived of the pension payments to which they are entitled, by law?
Do you know what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you care what is meant by the term, "rule of law"?
Do you know what a Jacobin is?
Do you know what happened in France during the Reign of Terror?
Are you familiar with the U.S. Constitution? If so, do you support that Constitution?