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Nice Work Creating New Terrorists, You Morons
Preface: This is admittedly somewhat peripheral to economics and
business. However, terrorist attacks cost many billions of dollars in
damage, and could severely depress consumer sentiment and “animal
spirits”. And, as I have previously written, unnecessary wars hurt
the economy. See this and this.
American civilian and military leaders have been creating new terrorists through their:
(1) Use of torture
and
(2) Killing of innocent civilians- especially children – in Arabic countries.
Torture
A high-level American Special Ops interrogator says that information obtained from torture is unreliable, and that torture just creates more terrorists. Indeed, he says that torture of innocent Iraqis by Americans is the main reason that foreign fighters started fighting against Americans in Iraq in the first place.
A former FBI interrogator — who interrogated Al Qaeda suspects — says categorically that torture does not help collect intelligence. On the other hand he says that torture actually turns people into terrorists.
A 30-year veteran of CIA’s operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, says:
“This is not just because the old hands overwhelmingly
believe that torture doesn’t work — it doesn’t — but also because they
know that torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of
terror than it could possibly neutralize.”
Former counter-terrorism czar Richard A. Clarke says that America’s indefinite detention without trial and abuse of prisoners is a leading Al Qaeda recruiting tool.
A former U.S. interrogator and counterintelligence agent, and Afghanistan veteran said,
Torture puts our troops in danger, torture makes our
troops less safe, torture creates terrorists. It’s used so widely as a
propaganda tool now in Afghanistan. All too often, detainees have
pamphlets on them, depicting what happened at Guantanamo.
The Senate Armed Services Committee unanimously found:
“The administration’s policies concerning [torture] and the resulting controversies … strengthened the hand of our enemies.”
Two professors of political science have demonstrated that torture increases, rather than decreases, terrorism.
Killing of Innocent Civilians
The former number 2 counter-terrorism expert at the State Department says that military attacks in Iraq increase terrorism.
Indeed, Al Qaeda wasn’t even in Iraq until the U.S. invaded that country.
After the U.S. military allegedly handcuffed and then killed a bunch of Afghan kids, thousands of Afghans are protesting the brutal killings, chanting 'Death to America!'.
Nice work creating new terrorists, you morons.
Anyone who thinks this is a partisan issue should read this and this.
In related news, not only are the U.S. government's actions
creating more terrorists, but "reforms" made to the intelligence
agencies have made it MORE DIFFICULT to stop the terrorists they've created.
Idiots.
- advertisements -
Torture is just revenge, plain and simple. Revenge is a basic human "need," and so can be "justified" by those who are angry.
However, anger and revenge will produce more anger and revenge, and will fail to reliably produce "intelligence," whether military or otherwise. That is what the military and intelligence professionals quoted by GW are trying (without widespread success, it appears) to tell us.
Oh the pirates in their fetid galleons,
daggers in their skivvies
With infected tattooed fingers on a blunderbuss or two
Signs of scurvy in their eyes & only mermaids on their minds
It's from them I would expect to hear the F-word, not from you
CHORUS:We sit down to have a chat
It's F-word this and F-word that
I can't control how you young people talk to one another
But I don't want to hear you use that F-word with your mother
There's the lumberjacks from Kodiak vacationing in Anchorage
Enchanted with their pine tar soup & Caribou shampoo
With seven weeks of back pay in their aromatic woolens
It's from them I would expect to hear the F-word, not from you
There's the militant survivalists with Gucci bandeleros
Taking tacky khaki walkie talkies to the rendezvous
Trading all the latest armor-piercing ammo information
It's from them I would expect to hear the F-word, not from you
There are jocks who think that God himself is drooling in the bleachers
In a late November downpour with a belly full of brew
Their entire grasp of heaven has a lot to do with football
It's from them I would expect to hear the F-word, not from you
There's unsavory musicians with their filthy pinko lyrics
Who destroy the social fabric and enjoy it when they do
With their groupies & addictions & their poor heartbroken parents
It's from them I would expect to hear the F-word, not from you...
The F-word poem was clever! Thanks for sharing. GW, excellent post--if they're shooting at you, you must be doing something right!
Nice work creating new terrorists, you morons! Hey, let's scramble a few F-16's from NORAD every time some ugly American drinks too much on a plane.
I highly recommend you people view the recent movie "Body of Lies". Pretty much explains how a "superpower" can gets it's ass kicked by third-world peoples, and how all the intel and satelite surveilence can (and IS) subverted by incompetence and ego.
ZH is a fine site--many intelligent people here. Vulgar morons like PierreLegrande only show how ignorant the majority of Americans are. Flag as JUNK.
If one cannot fathom how an expensive, futile and endless quagmire like our pitiful "war on terror" cant effect our Nation's economic future, one only need look to the Soviet Union.
IMO---when 9/11 made our Nation first united--and now hopelessly divided, our fear led us to put our trust (and our future) in a recovering alcoholic, draft dodging rich boy---who's father let Saddam Hussein off the hook during Desert Storm. The rest is history. Osama Bin Ladin has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.
Sad.
1. Best President - no question about it...Ike. Made the US Highway system, kept us safe from madman Stalin.
2. I am amazed the "murder of kidnapped kids" story has had so little traction. It may well be a hoax
3. Sophisticated torture using MRI and stress technology works the nuts. Waterboarding and torture are the best at recruiting Al Quaida.
4. This column is hard to read because of the profusion of obscene words. I usually don't read past the first f-bomb...
5. Best solution to Al quaida. Employ them.
6. US govt has lousy PR. We never her about school, road projects, freedom, schools for girls etc.
7. The new use of UAV recon and attacks is a major game changer.And judging from videos such as those on Weazel Zipper, extremely effective in getting bad guys and not civilians.
I find it interesting that certain posters only come out during certain discussions. You don't usually see them in the comment section of most of the ZH articles. But a posting like this one from GW or someone else brings them out in droves.
So while on the surface it appears that it might just be the "controversial" nature of the discussion, if this were so, we would see a natural mix of posters. But we don't. Sure there is some cross over, some mixing. And don't assume that different IDs mean different people.
I'm using the same logic that is used to debunk the notion that the markets today are as normal as they were 3 or 4 years ago. There are patterns here folks. Look for them. Spend the time to educate yourself to their presence. They are counting on the fact that 99% of us won't expend the energy to look beneath the sheets for the source of the stench. Certain posters are disruptors, debunkers and disinformationlists.
It's rather obvious when you take the time to click on some of these IDs and look at where they posted and what they say. Sure they post elsewhere to keep their cover but it's obvious what's going on when you stop assuming everyone commenting on ZH is a legitimate person who simply holds different views. You didn't think ZH was off the radar screen of the black helicopters did you? How else do you think they would disrupt this site, aside from the constant cyber attacks?
I noticed Anonymous is pretty active on this thread.
CIA is here.
Like I said before, the US Government is the biggest terrorist on the face of the earth.
Does that mean that we should/get to torture Geithner? Respected commentators (me) say it could help reduce terror, and we can't fight terror with our hands tied behind our backs.
(See torture and economics are related)
If we didn't have new terror-ists every 10-20 years the world would be such a boring place.
how would you feel if your brother or mother or father were tortured? would you not want revenge?!?
Let's torture these two professors and see how much they lie. It's for our national security so they shoulsn't mind.
Not a big torture fan...
but winning this war will be tough with both hands tied behind our back.
What war? Against "terrorism"? HAAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA!!!!
Yea you clownfuck there is no war on terror (a bad name since it is really the war against Islam) and those buildings in New York did not fall...or wait hold what you got I know I know the planes were remotely piloted by Bush and Cheney, financed by the Zionists at Goldman.
Since this site's credibility is shot the fuck to hell I think I will just spend my time ridiculing you clownfucks.
And before you go spouting all sorts of crap about how we are getting what we deserve save it. I know history apparently you don't.
Agreed: With the battle cry of "Torture to prevent terror!" who can stand against the might of our right in this "war"?
there's a lot positive to be said about avoiding this topic as too incendiary and distracting. but it's not as partisan as it once was, given the policies of obama, not even bush lite but bush as michael hayden said, imo, approvingly, and that the most telling critique of the policies in the last presidential campaign came from ron paul. in the interest of completeness i would add to the original post that torture is also evil and illegal. empathy is a useful tool in war. what is the reaction of the most pro-war americans to torture of americans by our enemies? it doesn't seem to be surrender. do they think we are superior warriors (as opposed to better, richer technologists) to the pashtun?
Last time I read a post by GW. Interesting that the real GW shot his own men when they deserted. Nice guy.
That's how the military works.
Well, GW my source is unimpeachable and he says torture works, his name; my Grandfather. He was tortured by Japanese Intelligence officers just after Corregidor fell.
Gramps says he told them every damn thing quickly and did not lie because his friends were tortured and the stories compared. Yep, your a real history expert all right. You dirty stinkin stupid Douche bag, all of you fools start using your heads... Of course it works, if it did not work it would not have a history stretching to Mesopotamia and further. Fools all fools...
you may be correct , it may work. But if you grabbed me and my neighbors and tortured all of us, we would still not be able to tell you about what the pentagon plans are. We truly dont know and you can torture us till doomsday.
So you have to torture the right people! Of course they all dress in the same sheets, speak a different language etc. I bet a lot of those tortured were as ignorant as i am about other folks plans.
We have bases in over a hundred countries. Why? Doesnt that cost us money we have to borrow from our enemies?(trading partners)
Too political and not related to the usual context of this site. Like religion some topics are very volatile and unless they are tied to the usual topics at ZH probably should be posted in another forum.
If the truth is "volatile", then so be it. Just because some people are uncomfortable facing the truth and are in denial doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it. Bravo Mr. Washington. We need to have a lot more such uncomfortable discussions.
Topic - Torture :Truth? Uncomfortable?Really?
What a fucking shame...this was such a terrific site for information. The problem is that the information they present does in fact show a conspiracy so credibility is critical to the site's success. Pissing away credibility by allowing a loon like GW to post makes the rest of the stuff they post here seem that much more unbelievable.
It is ENTIRELY possible that this site is being deliberately discredited by those very same people that Tyler and Marla have done such a fabulous job attacking.
In the end Goldman won...don't they always!
I agree, the credibility on this site has gone down hill. Too many loons are now running it.
I actually agree. Same viewpoints all the time is bad for this site and demonstrably not helpful to your brain.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/education/edlife/03adult-t.html?em
Educators say that, for adults, one way to nudge neurons in the right direction is to challenge the very assumptions they have worked so hard to accumulate while young. With a brain already full of well-connected pathways, adult learners should “jiggle their synapses a bit” by confronting thoughts that are contrary to their own, says Dr. Taylor, who is 66.
Teaching new facts should not be the focus of adult education, she says. Instead, continued brain development and a richer form of learning may require that you “bump up against people and ideas” that are different. In a history class, that might mean reading multiple viewpoints, and then prying open brain networks by reflecting on how what was learned has changed your view of the world.
“There’s a place for information,” Dr. Taylor says. “We need to know stuff. But we need to move beyond that and challenge our perception of the world. If you always hang around with those you agree with and read things that agree with what you already know, you’re not going to wrestle with your established brain connections.”
Such stretching is exactly what scientists say best keeps a brain in tune: get out of the comfort zone to push and nourish your brain.
Just sayin'.
when did money and politics get a divorce?
+1
Might I suggest...
http://www.blackfive.net/
http://ace.mu.nu
... for starters. It would certainly make for, ahem, lively discussions!
I would like to see it on blackfive because those people been there and done that. They will called BS BS.
I don't understand why everyone is so angry at him for posting this, none of you have to read it or get worked up about what it says. You complain about the site losing it's prestige, what? do you think ben bernake is going to drop by here and take some of the suggestions? This site is based around markets and economics, but then again so is the military so i think it is valid of GW to question their actions. As a citizen of this country who takes his rights seriously, you should question the military's actions. They have no reason to be in either of those countries, and perhaps if we didn't stick our noses in everyone's bullshit we wouldn't have people flying airliners into our buildings.
Rome is all i have to point to, just look at the history of rome and you will see how man has not advanced or evolved, but only our tech has. Man will still kill other man and even his own brothers for power money and sometimes nothing at all, so get off his back and take your med's and stop god damn swearing.
To the people upset with G.W.'s post. He is a contributor so how does his writing effect the credibility of the zero hedge staff, because in my opinion it doesn't. G.W.'s and PMs writing reflect their own credibility. And if it is credibility you take issue with why not respond about the sources cited rather than declaring the end of zero hedge and basically calling the poster crazy.
Yes! A bonafide +100.
You may also notice an unusual amount of negative posts, that are, in comparison to most other posts, of an otherwise more "speculative" nature. The evidence is presented clearly - yet the commenter cacophony remains incredible.
Somethin' ain't right.
Which turns me into somewhat of a hypocrite. Sorry, and thanks! GW.
Perhaps because it's hard to see how it fits with the mission of the site - and, with this post in particular, what the hell it has to do with "Consumer Sentiment" (which was one of its flags).
But hey, if the ZH folks are OK with this subject then who am I, a mere lurker, to argue? It's easy enough to ignore, after all - I just hang around GW's post occasionally for the sport of it.
Certainly I could see how it being flagged as having to do with "consumer sentiment" as being disingenuous. Regardless he has at least started a rather heated debate it seems so why not enjoy it, and that goes for both sides of the argument. I just don't see why we need to be at each others throats. If I wanted to listen to shit I always agreed with I would never leave church (if I were Christian).
By the way Doc why do you agree with torture? It is wrong on so many levels. The whole notion of extracting information detracts from the fact that if you torture someone you would be committing a violent act with the pretence that the person was guilty. Philosophically speaking it is impossible to prove that you didn't not do something if the event did not take place because evidence only exists of something that occurs. So if you were tortured the only way to get out of it would be by confessing the charge be it guilt or innocence.
This is the reason why the law has predominantly existed on the defendants side as the burden exists on the prosecution to prove something through evidence other wise you could condemn people just by making an accusation.
Its relevant because we BORROW the money we spend in wars. We borrow money to kill people in foreign countries.
Our government is criminal! Not just in war profiteering, but at home too
And this has to do with "Consumer Sentiment" how?
The pentagon has lost over 2.5 Trillion since 2000 GAO is the source and that is a conservative figure.
So a poorly run war does matter to the bottom line as far as I can see.
And the money invested in killing is paying huge dividends for all those in the war on terror and those supplying the guns to the other side.
Blowback is now a shaped charge that can be like a chain reaction in a breeder reactor. It may never end.
As the acts of unspeakable and unrestrained violence circle the globe more join the dance. Best not to show this stuff in america because people are not ready to face the fact that they are letting this all happen.The government has tricked them into buying into this with the help of the media and endless distraction.
GW is correct, this site is about exposing corruption, if attacking the wrong country and torture is not corruption I don't know what is?
Richard Cheny and Rummy had the bush boy do their dirty work and it was WRONG, bushie said OsamaBin Laden was no longer important. Yea its kinda nuts to wait 8 years after we were attacked to go after the perp but I'd say its better than forgetting about it.
There is some value in this post by GW. The argument is that the cost of tactical efforts to stop incidents of terrorism outweigh any benefits of immoral strategic policies in the middle east. The 1953 Iranian coup and the 1947 to present support of Israel are good examples of strategic mistakes. Like it or not, many Muslims hate western countries because of their policies toward the Arab / Muslim world. Without changing its policy regarding Israel, the United States will always be hated by many Muslims and will always be burdened by the costs of preventing terrorism.
+1
This article is idiocy, naivete, or both. Terrorists are created by radical Islamic ideology, which wants the downfall of Western civilization. Period.
Weakness to a thug attracts aggression. It did with the Nazis, and it does with radical Islamic terrorism. If you want to be soft and bury your head in the sand, you are part of the problem. I promise you, it will not magically go away.
Your fear is natural. Much of America has still not truly processed 9/11. Most of the Left acts like they have Stockholm syndrome. Unfortunately, acting soft in response to terrorism emboldens the enemy and brings more of them same.
We will be dealing with the terrorist problem for many years. It would be helpful of more Americans had a survival instinct.
Riiiiiiiight. Hitler came to power because we were weak. Yeah, buddy. If in doubt, bombs away. Sorry about the civilian collateral damage.
Actually Hitler came to power because those who were strong in WWI forgot to be merciful in victory instead they tried to punish Germany. His power grew to be the monsterous evil it was because those who could have stopped him were to weak. Hitler himself writes France alone could have easily stopped Germany before it could have re-armed had they only the courage to do so. Instead they went the peace at any cost route which in the end is the peace of the grave. Millions dead, countries laid to waste so a politician could declare peace in our time.
I don't have any illusions that our country is always this great moral beacon but I cannot think of one nation in all of history who has done as much for as many while asking as little. Have we made mistakes and acted out of greed and self interest, of course. We are also the only country on earth that has bleed as we have for the freedom of others. On the whole I think things balance in our favor.
Yeah, bomb everything into oblivion and stick the American flag in their ass.
That's the way you will learn them to think like an American!
"cool down baby, G.W. cites sources. Its not speculation, and I agree with every single word written in this article."
There is no verification of this event, and there is not indication that there is any evidence of this occurring.
This idiot "George Washington" needs a name change because he is a chicken shit wannabe.
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"As a rule, I greatly appreciate and respect your (GW) viewpoint,...."
I don't anymore and will not trust a fucking thing this loon states anymore. Write all ya want, but I ain't reading any more of this Anti American, American Hating ways.
This guy is an asshole.
"In spite of my critique, it is clear to me that the truth is your goal."
I don;t think it is, I think his goal is to give the USA a black eye. Again, he can go fuck himself, and his analysis sucks.
Whom did we "torture"? Pouring water down somebody's nose may seem like torture to a whimp like Georgie, but I think they need to impale these Jihadists on a pike.
This leftist retard has to fucking go!
This is just another example, as if any more were needed, of the type of conspiracy-wingnut, anti-government-rant posting that will be the death of this site. A site that, till recently, had been one of the very best financial sites on the web, but will ultimately be filled with the likes of assholes such as Project Mayhem & GW. Come to think of it, they're probably both GS or FED plants, no doubt sent here to post shit like this in order to reduce the credibility of Zero Hedge down to just a zero. Now there's a conspiracy theory i could believe in!
"Anti-government-rant posting."
I, for one, think the government is doing a FINE job! In fact, they are doing such a fine job of serving as my elected representation that ZH has had an unending stream of corruption and foul play to investigate and expose for the past year.