This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Nigel Farage Explains Why Greece Must Be Allowed To Default

Tyler Durden's picture


On the day when the flawed euro experiment will get its first popular pseudo-referendum, it is only logical that prominent euroskeptic Nigel Farage would sound off on how he sees things for Greece, Europe and the currency union, and why he believes the current situation is nothing short of slavery.

From Nigel Farage:

Greece must be allowed to default

The European elite is ignoring the will of the people by protecting Greece from default, claims UKIP leader Nigel Farage MEP

As the European economic crisis unfolds, it is becoming obvious that
there are two distinct ideas out there about how to proceed. One is
favoured by the international financial elite, the European Union and
the political leaderships of member states - and the other is the
approach that is gaining purchase outside the chancelleries.

former is the creation of a true European nation, a fiscal and debt
union; the latter is allowing market forces to work and letting Greece
unpick its monetary handcuffs and find its own level. I ask whether we
would prefer to live under a benevolent dictatorship now because the
time for answering it is fast approaching, the fork in the road is upon
us and we are going to have to choose. I am not going to argue that one
answer is entirely good, and the other entirely bad, but that each has
its positives and negatives. It depends on your perspective, that is

Those that favour the top-down approach can include almost
everybody with political influence on the continent, and many off it. To
that number must be added the acting Director of the International
Monetary Fund, the American John Lipsky and his director of European
operations Antonio Borges. To them stability of the system is all, and
protection of the status quo overrules other values - which at other
times they might trumpet. In Luxembourg, on Monday, they launched the
IMF's latest statement on the eurozone. In the IMF's normal
user-friendly way, this study is called the 2011 Article IV mission.

in title, the importance of this document should not be overlooked.
What this report states so baldly is that the interests of the European
elite must and will take precedence over the wishes of the people. After
all, as is generally accepted, the bailouts are currently transferring
institutional and private banking debt from those institutions to the
taxpayers. Those taxpayers must therefore have a choice.

they are to be ignored. Listen to Borges state: "We really believe that
many of the current problems result from incomplete integration. In the
process of developing monetary union like the United States, which is a
fully integrated monetary union, you have obstacles that magnify the
problem." What he seems to forget is that final fiscal and monetary
union in the US only happened after the then bloodiest war in history,
in a country that was already united by language law and customs. It is
extraordinary that the IMF is suggesting that this economic crisis is in
any way synonymous with what was happening in the US in the 1840s. The
only slavery here is of the people to the Eurocrats dream. For without
democratic control, we are left with something akin to slavery.

other option is for Greece to default, leave the euro, find its own
level, set its own interest rates and trade itself out of its
predicament. The Greeks are no less hard working than any other nation,
but have been gulled through the application of economic policies that
suit Thüringen not Thessalonica. A wall has been built around the minds
of the elite, one in which there is no door marked "exit" merely the
ability to build the walls higher. The wall is their political
commitment to the euro at all costs; the bricks are their hectoring

We must make no bones about it, according to the EU
and the IMF there is no alternative. The people of Greece must do as
they are told. They cannot countenance default and leaving the single
currency. What then is the price of democracy in its birthplace?


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:30 | 1389252 The Profit Prophet
The Profit Prophet's picture


T.E.I.N. bitchez!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:02 | 1389375 ratso
ratso's picture

Turns out that Greece is a financial drug addict and the EU, IMF and ECB are the long standing enablers who live in denial about what can be done.

Bite the bullet cut your losses by absorbing the debt and end Greece's participation in the Eurozone.  No amount of pleading by Greece asying "I'll be good I'll be good" will help.

All financial help to Greece at this point will just postphone the inevitable and prevent Greece from maturing financially.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:41 | 1389510 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

At least, this guy has the honesty of putting the two alternatives face to face.

Too often, in this US driven world, the propagandists have told there could only be one outcome: destruction of the eurozone.

This guy has the basic honesty to admit that there is the other outcome: the strengthening of the Eurozone through integration.


Eurozone on the US path, definitively.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 21:43 | 1390853 ViewfromUnderth...
ViewfromUndertheBridge's picture

unity after war...brilliant!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:05 | 1389803 TheBillMan
TheBillMan's picture

Ah, but you fail to understand what is at stake here.  It is not about getting paid back (though the elites certainly don't want to lose any money).  It's about continuing the scam at any cost.  If Greece is allowed to leave the union under any circumstances, it would psychologically mean the end of the European Union, of a single currency, and a single politically united Europe.  They would have to admit that the great experiment has failed.  More importantly, they would have to admit that the ultimate goal of a single world central bank and single planetary government is a pipe dream: a world government run by the elites for the benefit of the elites and a world central bank that would allow them to print unlimited amounts of fiat currency to fraudulently buy up the world's assets for themselves beyond the reach of any law enforcement apparatus.  They would have to take all the well laid plans they have concocted over the last 50 years since the first Bilderberg meeting and throw it all in the dustbin.  The problem is that it already too late for them.  Greece will default and the European Union with disintegrate.  It is only a matter of time.  I just hope for the sake of the elite that they have a hidden island somewhere that doesn't appear on any maps to hide on.  They're gonna need it.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 23:41 | 1390938 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

when the bilderberg dream fails, they will take manhattan.   actually, they already have. 

maps are way overrated.  trust me.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:32 | 1389678 Metropolis_Minx
Metropolis_Minx's picture

Interview with Nigel Farage from Saturday:

There's a smidge of "hopium" at the end of the broadcast.



Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:32 | 1389679 Armando Javier ...
Armando Javier Finkeltein of the Boise Finkelsteins's picture

What is tein?

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:26 | 1389879 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

The End Is Near

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:30 | 1389255 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Blasphemous Heretic!

Burn the heretic at the stake. Must push market higher. Never use the term 'default'. Must silence all those who refuse to kick the can.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:30 | 1389279 The Profit Prophet
The Profit Prophet's picture

My cool new term for default: "Right Size"......i.e. Greece must Right Size its debt in order to avoid financial slavery!

T.E.I.N. bitchez!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:37 | 1389306 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

The right size = No size.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:25 | 1389257 Ancona
Ancona's picture

I agree. Take the pain now, because later it will be double.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:31 | 1389266 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

This is an exponential road to hell so the pain won't double but rather quadruple.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:10 | 1389396 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

CD, you got junked for being conservative.

I feel the tipping point we are now approaching will come with binary ferocity.

Phase change. Snap.


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:14 | 1389426 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture


I got junked because my stealth junker is back. S/he must have missed my low profile over the last few days. It's nice to know I'm loved hated by some. It adds balance to the Karma.

Or it could just be mother pissed off because I haven't called. Mom, I lost your new phone number. Please email me your latest one.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:37 | 1389509 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

If you're pissing off the right people, CD, you just may be on to something..  ;-)

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:59 | 1389576 Thomas
Thomas's picture

"Phase change. Snap."

Could not have said it better.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:34 | 1389278 qussl3
qussl3's picture

Yup they are better bearing it now, else its lehmann later.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:50 | 1389950 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

"Phase Change: Snap" is absolutely correct, the Western world is afterall built on a house of (credit) cards ....once a small stack of these IOU's fold the rest of the pack should collapse in short order


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:31 | 1389267 Robslob
Robslob's picture

As long as "pain" does not interfere with elections then it will be allowed...


Of course only when every last elite has "left the station" complete default will be allowed.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:32 | 1389268 hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

Sell the news,


Reversal Island coming SP back to 1.100

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:30 | 1389274 vegas
vegas's picture

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,

Humpty Dumpty had a great fall,

All the King's horsemen and all the King's men,

couldn't put Humpty together again.


Nothing new under the blinding sun of Euro hubris.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:30 | 1389275 Mudflap
Mudflap's picture

We're gonna need this...

Ingredients for homemade liquor-Union Army-
bark juice
brown sugar
lamp oil

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:48 | 1389336 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

indeed it could be worse.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:30 | 1389276 writingsonthewall
writingsonthewall's picture

I believe that Greece (the birthplace of Democracy) is now also the birthplace of the new world system.


...better get your reading glasses on....

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 06:53 | 1389983 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Anarchy on the streets in Greece indeed, but well worth clarifying who the anarchists are, public sector workers and students angry at the broken promises of those scumbags, politicians

...these Govt drip-feed babes are throwing their toys outta the pram at having the sugary syrup of other peoples money taken away, Boo Hoo ;,,(

...when the private sector (small business) and productive citizens take to the streets, or simply refuse to pay their taxes, that's when 'democracy' returns and we start heading in  the right direction.. not this pathetic public sector babes spitting their dummies out (yawn)


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:34 | 1389277 Version 7
Version 7's picture

"We really believe that many of the current problems result from incomplete integration."

We can't let a good crisis go to waste can we..

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:39 | 1389283 qussl3
qussl3's picture

I think he meant the phallus isnt sufficiently integrated with taxpayer butts yet.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:31 | 1389284 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

What then is the price of democracy in its birthplace?

That says it in a nutshell.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:53 | 1389337 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i think the answer "more" does myself.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:13 | 1389416 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

Let's not forget how democracy (the democratic party) came into power in Athens: smear campaign against the aristocracy and a coup while they were out in a diplomatic trip.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:54 | 1389560 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

It looks like the US story. A coup against the aristocracy...

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:41 | 1389285 Mercury
Mercury's picture

It is extraordinary that the IMF is suggesting that this economic crisis is in any way synonymous with what was happening in the US in the 1840s. The only slavery here is of the people to the Eurocrats dream.

It's not that extrodinary if you realize that in their analogy the Eurocrats are hoping to skip over the equivilent of the U.S. civil war and right up to 1865 when the The Commerce Clause was rammed into the constitution and the federal government really put itself into the driver's seat.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:54 | 1389345 macholatte
macholatte's picture

It's the new propaganda. The sheeple are ignorant of history so anythng goes. The Soros-Obama Machine has been doing it for years. So why not the Eurocrats. It's all complete and utter horseshit but the audience has no clue.


The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.
John F. Kennedy

The rulers of the state are the only persons who ought to have the privilege of lying, either at home or abroad; they may be allowed to lie for the good of the state.

It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
Vladimir Lenin

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:55 | 1389356 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

So the IMF is saying that any country that tries to "seceed" from the union should be slaughtered, their cities burned to the ground, and then economic slavery put on anyone who survives for the next 150+ years? Sounds pretty spot on to me.

For the one or two that dont know any better, the civil war was not about slavery, it was about economic control, like almost every other war in history, actually it kind of was about slavery, and slavery won.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:27 | 1389457 Inibo E. Exibo
Inibo E. Exibo's picture

"actually it kind of was about slavery, and slavery won."


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:41 | 1390395 nevadan
Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:37 | 1389289 oogs66
oogs66's picture

At some point the politicians have to do the will of the people, no?

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:38 | 1389293 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:45 | 1389314 writingsonthewall
writingsonthewall's picture

The people have to demonstrate their will - by refusing to participate in the charade any longer.

Strike, Occupy, Sabotage.

The ONLY thing the fascists fear is a mass dissention by the workers (slaves) - as you can see in Syria, even a state with apparently no moral boundaries will find it difficult to manage without the support of the majority.

The best way to rid yourself of parasites is to go into slumber. That's why Europe is already striking because without willing people - there is no nation to control.

It's a serious matter - now you must choose whether you want to side with the slave masters - or fight to be free.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:40 | 1389301 Version 7
Version 7's picture

Only if you make them an offer they can't refuse.

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 07:01 | 1391168 tonyw
tonyw's picture

"do the will of the people" no they do what's in their own interests. Since we're talking about Greece take the EU, the politicians avoided a referendum when it was sure to go against them and in the case of Ireland when they voted no they just had to vote again.

In the US the people were against bailing out the banksters but what happened, the banksters got bailed out.


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:40 | 1389302 JR
JR's picture

Crime? Confiscation of public tax monies and sovereign infrastructures to bail out the bankers – whether in America or Greece, whether it’s Citibank or Deutsche Bank AG -- is inequality before the law.

“When will we call a crime a crime? When will we demand a jail-out, not just more bail-outs. Unless we do, and until we do, the people who created the worst crisis in our time will, in effect, get away with the biggest rip-off in history.” -- Will Banksters Get Away With It | February 26, 2011 | Al Jazeera

It’s in the interest of these giant international bankers and international corporations to keep the Eurozone together, yes, but it’s not necessarily in the interest of the average German or European citizen.  The German people, et al., just give up more and more of their standard of living to the bankers, as do Americans when forced, for example, to give billions in taxpayer funds to the likes of AIG’s counterparties -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc, Deutsche Bank AG, Merrill Lynch, Societe Generale, Calyon, Barclays Plc, Rabobank, Danske, HSBC, Royal Bank of Scotland, Banco Santander, Morgan Stanley, Wachovia, Bank of America, and Lloyds Banking Group…

And now look what they’re attempting to do to the Greek people; the IMF/Fed will grind them into the dirt if they get their way.  And this is just the beginning; the tyrants who come after them will make Mao look like some kind of Sunday school teacher.

These people aren’t content with their commissions and bailouts from control of the currency anymore; they want slavery.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:06 | 1389391 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

indeed.  "See ya' later, Lehman."  Long live Lehman Brothers!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:06 | 1389393 lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

Crime ........ bingo, that's right ..... why isn't more written about the crime of it all , the collusion of politicians & bankers at the highest levels to drain the wealth out of whole countries & into their coffers !

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:31 | 1389475 Confuchius
Confuchius's picture

Chairman Mao was a teacher.

He taught that political power comes out of the barrel of a gun.

The Afghans have learned this.

The Americans and Europeans have yet to learn it.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:43 | 1389528 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Crime? Confiscation of public tax monies and sovereign infrastructures to bail out the bankers – whether in America or Greece, whether it’s Citibank or Deutsche Bank AG -- is inequality before the law.


Inequality? Then it is good.

US citizens have equality. Equality is a straightforward, tractable notion that is not that easy to manipulate. Hence the US hate as it calls for concrete results.

US citizens prefer vastly freedom, a vague, undelineated concept that it is easy to manipulate. It allows vast ground for propagandists (the heart of America) and freedom can be painted as being the US at its inception, a nation calling for freedom and maintaining slavery.

What is happening is totally American. The bankers have to be treated inequaly.

The US citizens nature is eternal and dont ask from them what they can not deliver. Consideration for equality is not one of them. US kind of freedom, totally and the bankers are free by US freedom standards.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:40 | 1389304 Sambo
Sambo's picture

I like the comment at the end of the webpage:


People talk about this as a car crash. I think of it more like the sinking of the Titanic. We are at the stage where the damage is done but the ship is still floating and nobody in charge can quite believe that this is really happening and that such an unsinkable vast construction such as this can possibly be going down. Even a "Farage Of Common Sense" fired directly at them will probably not wake them from their reverie until it is too late. Lifeboats anyone?
Steve Boston - Fife, Scotland

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:01 | 1389362 hambone
hambone's picture

apropos - all we need now is Jamie Dimon on the bow of the ship shouting "I'm the king of the world" while the ship is capsizing from the stern.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:28 | 1389676 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

A point missed: Eurodudes and dudettes will pay almost any price to remain within currency union. Why?

Because euros are the only means for energy- deficit countries such as Greece (and Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Belgium) to obtain fuel. Middle East suppliers will accept 'hard' euros but not devalued and devaluing drachmas, punts, pesetas, lira, etc.

Exiting the euro strands the immense fleets of beloved automobiles the Greeks (Irish, Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, Belgians, etc) took on such huge euro- debts to own. What business exists in these countries orbits around automobiles which is also stranded by devaluation, which means the 'Argentine' solution of default and devaluation leads to an energy- driven debt compounding spiral.

Argentina in the 1990s was not an energy debtor: it did not need to borrow hard currency to buy fuel and cutting off international funding did Argentina a favor as its citizens could not borrow to buy more cars. BTW, Iceland is an energy producer and is not an example for Greece, either.

Outside of Norway, all the EU is an energy debtor, far moreso than the United States or China. Only Japan and Korea have a more straightened energy economy.

The hapless Europeans are like the crew of a sinking sailing ship trying to climb the mast, each elbowing the others out of the way. What they choose not to accept is the problem is at the end of the EU's collective driveway and the choice is between driving a car and having some kind of money with some worth in pocket. Driving a car or having a job, driving a car or having something to eat, driving a car or living in a gulag or being killed in a riot.

Driving a car or chaos ... Shouldn't be a choice but so many are having problems with it ...

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 09:07 | 1391353 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Steve the currency may be hard but its credit is malinvested in a more inefficient manner then older hybrid sov states.

The EMU period was such a waste in comparsion to older sov times -  the euro has a deep structural problem , it has too little goverment money in relation to outstanding credit.

The Gold price must be much higher in the Euro system if it is to work effeciently.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:40 | 1389305 Robslob
Robslob's picture


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:38 | 1389307 km4
km4's picture

Fukushima: It's much worse than you think - Features - Al Jazeera English

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:41 | 1389308 solidsteele
solidsteele's picture

Greek Euro bailout the new face of QE3

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:46 | 1389317 qussl3
qussl3's picture

ZH pulled the syntagma feed?

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:43 | 1389320 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Ireland has already extremely globalised - its just a exit , entry point for capital and its subsequent labour that also happens to be a island in the Atlantic.

"We" have sold most of our utilities already , the liberal thought police accelerated their agenda during the 80s when Ireland suffered external punishment for being the last to become monetarist in the Anglo Sphere of influence , the Delor Europeans followed in the early 1990s.

I really don't think Europe exists in a cultural sense anymore - France is dying now and the UK is dead.

If anything the continent is one Giant Belgium without the classy beer.

They have won already , the only comfort is that they have inherited a shit hole , at least we have that comfort.

Raising taxes was hard during the dark ages I gather.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:03 | 1389382 strannick
strannick's picture

'Raising taxes was hard during the dark ages I gather.'

Get a sailboat, anchor it in Cork Harbour, and some silver dubloons to trade with the townsfolk. Then let them try and collect your taxes. And if the political climate gets cloudy, hoist the main and set sail for sunnier climes.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:49 | 1389469 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Silver for butter , I like it.........

But perhaps we can find a more stable forum before I set sail.


Photograph of interior of Cork Butter Exchange c1900 > Cork ...

but perhaps a bit of gunboat diplomacy might not go amiss


Paddle Steamer entering the Port of Cork 1842 > Cork: Merchant ...



Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:48 | 1389325 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

Well Steven Trader Harper...sure is trying to integrate Canada into the USA....

He needs to be knocked off his throne and his head stomped on...

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:04 | 1389601 Confuchius
Confuchius's picture

Your suggestion is far too kind. Hung, drawn, and quartered, and soon or it will become really a "bloody mess"

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:54 | 1390211 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

Layton or ignatiev would accomplish the same so boot stomping them would send a message to harper and the bureaucrats what could happen to them

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:49 | 1389326 hungarianboy
hungarianboy's picture

Nigel owns!! ANy video link maybe? :-)

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:51 | 1389331 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

Traitor,would be the correct spelling for the last post.

Ps.....Fuck you Steven Harper...

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:10 | 1389397 strannick
strannick's picture

Dont forget Jack Layton and Mikie Iggie-Prof

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:11 | 1389406 adeptish
adeptish's picture

Stephen Hunt is a carper...

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:41 | 1389711 Armando Javier ...
Armando Javier Finkeltein of the Boise Finkelsteins's picture

A Quisling as the Norwegians would say.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:43 | 1389718 Armando Javier ...
Armando Javier Finkeltein of the Boise Finkelsteins's picture

A Quisling as the Norwegians would say.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:52 | 1389334 gianakt
gianakt's picture

Think the FOMC starts targeting for a higher dollar. As the low dollar is chocking off economic activity worldwide by causing commodity prices to rise. Lets see what the FOMC does tommorrow!!!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:52 | 1389335 Soda Popinski
Soda Popinski's picture

Default...  Woohoo!  The two sweetest words in the english language. Default!  Default!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:54 | 1389341 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:21 | 1389441 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Strangely antiseptic symbol is it not Ghordius ? - the blandness of it all is the most terrifying aspect of this era in my opinion

You think they would have done better then Eurovision - anyhow the blandness has spread , all colour in the world is fading.

Me thinks they have won , but lets hope its a poison chalice and they drink with much thirst.


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:41 | 1390153 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

It is one of the many compromises a monetary union implies...
I am not sure the Greeks want what he says ( default).
Last time I checked they wanted to keep a relatively hard currency and somehow find a solution for the rest.

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 08:36 | 1391296 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Excellent point , but I am not sure breaking the hybrid executive / sov banking nation state is all that effecient.

I have seen enough malinvestment to last a lifetime since the start of EMU , energy is becoming more of a problem when this loss of capital is becoming harder and harder to replace.

There's little point in having a hard currency if most of the wealth is malinvested , I would prefer a softer currency that I can use in symbiosis with more effeciently spent credit money thank you.

Its really the amount of energy units you can obtain at least on a collective basis - the Euro wastes too much energy via cross border credit malinvestment , large scale project efficiency such as industrial corporation is just not enough in present circumstances.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:55 | 1389349 firefighter302
firefighter302's picture

Transfer of wealth from the taxpayers to the "elite".

How many times can history repeat itself, and the productive taxpayer allow these inbred thugs to steal our money, generation after generation?

What do you do when the governments manipulate the currencies, markets, commodities? When they ignore or make laws to steal your wealth, opportunities and freedom? 

I know what my beloved "Founding Fathers" did in the 1770's about a similarly obscene government.



Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:07 | 1389401 strannick
strannick's picture

and get gold too.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:13 | 1389409 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

How many times can history repeat itself, and the productive taxpayer allow these inbred thugs to steal our money, generation after generation?

Almost by definition human nature has to go through the cycles of learning and failing, just like the last time, and just like the next time..  I don't think we humans will ever get it through our heads that it's during the good times that we must reduce government, not expand it. Increase vigilance, not relax it. Become more self-reliant, not less.  Reduce consumption and debt, not expand it. Etc...etc...

The silver lining is that this cycle is nearing an end and a period is coming where we can set our own table.  Last time the enemy was Great Britain.  This time?  'We have met the enemy and he is us'..  Does this portend civil war?  I hope not. I hope that selfish agendas capitulate to the brutal and simple truths that we are left with.  Interesting times, firefighter302...


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:25 | 1389876 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

There is also the cycle of monetary destruction to consider. Given enough time (and personal freedom), the masses will accumulate enough wealth where they will no longer be so dependent upon the financial and governing systems which prey upon them.

So what happens? Those who are in control of these systems break everything, stealing all of the wealth in the process, in order to reset the balance of power in their favor, as once again, the people lose the ability to care for themselves.

Now, add to that the fact that a human lifetime is rarely a century long, while these institutions will exist in perpetuity, assuming the insiders accomplish their mission of keeping it relevant.

There is nothing new about what's happening today, but there are none still living who were an adult the last time The Great Depression happened. So, for society in general, it's a brand new experience. Yet for those with historical institutional secrets, it's just repeating a trick they've learned.

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 02:07 | 1391078 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

There is nothing new about what's happening today..

Yet, from 235+ years back we have been given warning after warning regarding the banks, standing armies, truthful media, the right to bear arms, etc, etc.. 

Evil never changes.  This is why each newbie generation must remain deeply skeptical of government.  That knowledge is just as old as the banker's knowledge, it's just that ther former lose their incentive to remember and the latter's incentive never loses its luster..

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:09 | 1389611 tsx500
tsx500's picture

it's called denial.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 12:53 | 1389353 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

It's too late. The die has been cast and the model is set: They will extend this Ponzi until the end of time. 

There are only two choices when you're running a giant Ponzi that now has engulfed most of the developed economies of the world: expand it or let it all implode. 

It must grow in order to stay alive. And that's exactly what they've been working on since 2009. They are true believers who also benefit richly from seeing it persist. 

Of course every Ponzi keeps accumulating faults and stress fractures that threaten it's existence more and more over time. And they're ignoring the huge, dangerous side effects of the current economic policy. What they don;t realize is that just as quickly as they expand the Ponzi they are also accelerating it's own demise. 

Lotsa Luck!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:01 | 1389363 firefighter302
firefighter302's picture

Well stated, Caviar Emptor.


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:16 | 1389623 Confuchius
Confuchius's picture

Ponzis cannot merely be "extended". They must grow to survive. Nothing in nature just grows except cancer and its' end comes when the host is killed.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:00 | 1389370 strannick
strannick's picture


Farage's tone sounds familiar.

Wait, is Tyler Durden, ... Nigel Farage??

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:05 | 1389374 digalert
digalert's picture

The EU is a grand vision of the elite for a eurotopia, moving eventually to a new world order. Where all the submissive serfs hold hands singing kumbaya...

It ain't gonna work! Right on Nigel Farage

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:11 | 1389405 PaperBear
PaperBear's picture

Bang on, Nigel.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:09 | 1389414 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Let us look at the process of creating said default to date:

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:19 | 1389433 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

isn't this just a debate about Rule of Law?   If that is in place then none of this crap can happen.. ah fantasies

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:22 | 1389643 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

great stuff - but the author forgot about the third student, one named Lloyd, that, after hearing how sick the woman was, and knowing he was playing golf with the doctor all day, he took out a life insurance policy against the lady and cashed out handsomely the following day


Lloyd's answer, of course, was the only correct one




Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:40 | 1389503 AldoHux_IV
AldoHux_IV's picture

The Greek people need to stand up for democracy and their individual sovereignty otherwise what else in an age of financial overrule and misunderstood economics is there worth fighting for as the ruling elite have no interest in working with the people.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:32 | 1389885 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

The Greek people need to stand up for democracy and their individual sovereignty...

Sorry, those two concepts are mutually exclusive. One can be a 'slave,' or one can be 'free.' The idea of a 'free slave' is a contradiction.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:45 | 1389520 proLiberty
proLiberty's picture

Socialism is evil.  It destroys wealth.  It must be predatory with respect to gaining the wealth it needs to advance its cause.  It is not "sustainable", a concept the socialists love to scold the rest of us about. 

One of the reasons is that along with prices, socialism destroys moral hazard.  As both Hayek and von Mises proved, without price information, the various particpants in the economy cannot make a truthful economic calculation.  It is difficult enought to make a profit on an ongoing basis.  It is easy to fall into a loss, which can only be made up by consuming capital.  When enough companies lose enough of their capital, the economy is not sustainable.

Moreover, when socialism destroys moral hazard, particpants in the economy cannot make sound long-term economic decisions.  They will tend to underestimate the risk of failure, and especially the cost of failure.  They will expect that they can induce to government to step in and bail them out.  But when government is bailing out every failure, there is far less wealth available to soundly invest.  Thus the cost of capital will be high, if not directly than because of the inflation that every government money-printing bailout will cause. 



Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:14 | 1389632 The Profit Prophet
The Profit Prophet's picture

You know what's funny....if you replace the word "socialism" with the word "capitalism" and insert the words GREED and HUBRIS in a few spots, your entire argument still holds true....funny that!

T.E.I.N. bitchez!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:38 | 1389714 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Think there's not greed and hubris in socialism?  Just as in crony capitalism/corporatism, an elite socialist few are privy to the toils of the many.  The only real difference is freedom and celebrating the individual.  See? We haven't had capitalism here for over 20 years..

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:07 | 1389795 johnnynaps
johnnynaps's picture


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:42 | 1389925 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

You don't know what capitalism is then.

Here's a hint, it's not a system of social control, nor of theft. It is simply each of us producing more than we consume, and being allowed to save the surplus in order to create further wealth through investment in our own businesses, or externally through bonds and equity ownership.

When anyone complains about capitalism, at a minimum, it is crony-capitalism (a.k.a. political capitalism) they are really talking about. Capitalism, by itself is not a polticial system. That politicians use their coercive force to engender legal protection for their buddies is not a failure of capitalism, but of the legal framework that is supposed to protect the masses from the elite. Problem is, the elite wholly own the government, thanks to the wealth transfer device that is the not-Federal not-Reserve system.

The Fed gave both the financial industry and the government a blank-check to create money to purchase anything they wanted, risk-free. Yet you choose to attack capitalism instead?

Get real.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:34 | 1389891 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I think you mean that socialism creates moral hazard (by destroying price discovery). Otherwise, you've paraphrased Mises precisely.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:47 | 1389530 The Laughing Man
The Laughing Man's picture

Nigel is mostly on target, except for the part about "ignoring the will of the people." Not in the sense that they are not being ignored -- they certainly are -- but that the Greek populace continues to refuse to accept any measures that involve taking a hit to their welfare programs.

The government wants to be bailed out, but the Greeks want the government to fix it themselves without touching their precious socialist structure somehow. The first option is suicidal for the country and the second is unrealistic and just as damaging in the long run. Catch-22 anyone?

Default is their best option at this point. It'll be painful, but its better than the other alternatives.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:46 | 1389537 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

"The Greeks are no less hard working than any other nation..."


I beg to differ. I've seen the video feeds; they're just standing around...





Tue, 06/21/2011 - 13:50 | 1389558 N57Mike
N57Mike's picture

Nigel = new Churchill ("the first casualty of war is truth", WSC)

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:45 | 1389936 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

So you think Farage is controlled opposition?

I guess I'll believe it when he leads England into one of the wars he formerly was against. Who, pray tell, will be his Hitler?

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:01 | 1389568 sbenard
sbenard's picture

What irony that they would compare the EU to the USA, when an ironic twist of reversal of fortunes is happening here too. Texas is actually considering the possibility of leaving the sinking ship of the USS America, while Greece is being compelled to remain ON the sinking ship of the Europa! Global individual liberty is being destroyed to protect the interests of the global banking elites. When did we stop calling that "slavery"? Suck eggs, elites!

Burn, baby, burn! Sink, baby sink! Jump ship NOW, fellow rats!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:24 | 1389657 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

>> Texas is actually considering the possibility of leaving the sinking ship of the USS America

Not fast enough.  And it wont be bloodless either.


Wed, 06/22/2011 - 01:56 | 1391061 bakken
bakken's picture

Gee... How soon will Texas leave???  Nobody up here (N. Dakota) wants to stop you!  Take it all, even the border with Mexico!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:03 | 1389590 sbenard
sbenard's picture

There are many great comments on this thread today. Too many to acknowledge them all. Thanks, everyone! Good insights!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:01 | 1389594 thetrader
Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:18 | 1389626 Coke and Hookers
Coke and Hookers's picture

People always speak like political and monetary union will solve everything. It wont. The imbalances in the system will find a way to express themselves. In the case of the common currency and common interest rates (the way it is now) a recession in any country expresses itself in increased unemployment rather than currency devaluation (since the currency is fixed). If a complete monetary union is imposed, the imbalances will not go away. They will express themselves in migration. People will leave their countries and head for northern Europe. Entire countries will turn into slums and the nation state fabric of the continent will be torn to shreds.

Europhiles look at America as an example why monetary integration would work. They don't seem to see that big areas of America have been turned into third world hellholes and slums when everybody who can get a job somewhere else leaves. Imagine where California will be in 20 years or so. It will be a third world toilet from stem to stern. That will happen to large areas of Europe if monetary integration is forced upon the continent.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:18 | 1389628 BobRocket
BobRocket's picture

Nigel Farage might be right, he is still an arse though.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:33 | 1389683 Manthong
Manthong's picture

"What then is the price of democracy in its birthplace?"

Too high, too painful, so slavery and death must be slowly endured.. just like here.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 14:50 | 1389744 grant
grant's picture

The Greeks are no less hard working than any other nation,


Maybe, we don't know for sure... but we DO know for sure that most Greeks are not "taxpayers" due to massive amounts of evasion and corruption.

Innocent victims they are not.

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 02:03 | 1391076 bakken
bakken's picture

What is the real tax load of the top 10% here???  Get real.  Notice the IRS WILL NOT publish simple data, such as %National Income vs %Taxes Paid by Income brackets.There is likely as much substantive tax evasion (vs %Tax Liability) here as there is in Greece.  Simpler, how much foreign tax dodgong by Americans has actually been prosecuted?  It is not even a newsworthy topic anymore.

And, where is your data on MOST GREEKS ARE NOT TAXPAYERS???  MOST RICH GREEKS ARE NOT TAXPAYERS>>>>>How is that much different than here actually?

Wed, 06/22/2011 - 02:09 | 1391080 bakken
bakken's picture

read dodging  NOT dodgong.  I don't know what dodgong means.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:05 | 1389804 Bertie Bear
Bertie Bear's picture

All the cards are in the Greeks hands. The bozos In the rest of Europe have to bail them out or their own banks are bust, then Ireland makes them double bust and then Portugal will probably bringdown the whole rotten global financial system. Greece has had no bailout yet. Just more stinking debt shoved down it's swollen throat. Time for it to puke I say. Btw I heard Nigel Farage on BBC cricket test match special the other day during a break in the rain. Him and Geoff Boycott together, two extreme right wing nutters in a pod. We're sinking here in Europe folks. Tyler as for the comment that to have a complete monetary union we need a war in Europe, I'm sure Mr Putin will oblige when China bubble collapses and we are down to $10/b oil. Remember how aggressive Russia got in 2008 H2. Europe will cordially invite the US to join our war. I believe the UK only recently paid off what it owed the US fromLend lease from WW2!

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:28 | 1389874 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Dont be surprised if more and more extremist parties gain power if northern european countries continue bail out the profligate and corrupt south

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:28 | 1389884 VFR
VFR's picture

here is  a video of Nigel explaining the complexities to his fellow europoeans in the european parliament


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 15:58 | 1389979 Ag1761
Ag1761's picture

I can't wait until the US banks get screwed for the CDS they bought when Greece goes. The final sting in Democracy, Capitalism and Greed. Also, happy to see a country like Greece punished as much as possible, haven't ever got their taxation sorted, lazy workforce and general bunch of Euro parasites. This is what they get for getting in bed with the whole Euro Bankster mess in the first place. Viva La Revolution.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:07 | 1390022 Ag1761
Ag1761's picture

Did I mention this Farage guy is a laughing stock who tries to run a bankrupt party in total disarray. Ex failed Tory bankster shill

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:23 | 1390079 Unholy Dalliance
Unholy Dalliance's picture

'Did I mention this Farage guy is a laughing stock who tries to run a bankrupt party in total disarray. Ex failed Tory bankster shill'


Even if that were true, it now has to be discounted because he is one of the very few MEPs who is telling the unvarnished truth about the impossibility of the Euro and the ultimate demise of the EU. Whether you like Farage or loathe him is irrelevant if he shows the courage to stand up to loathsome creatures such as van Rompuy and Barroso and bait them mercilessly for it is no more than these Marxist-Stalinist totalitarians deserve. When the individual nation-states of Europe are no longer yoked together in this contrived slavery-state which exists only to benefit those in positions of control and power, including banks and multinational business (the usual industrial-military-finance complex suspects) - deep breath - then you will be free (literally) not to vote for him or his party. Until then the watchword should always be:


Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:52 | 1390189 Ag1761
Ag1761's picture

The Slavery will continue, it always has and always will, maybe guised as Marxist/Facist/Democratic/WTF. However, one thing is true and will always remain chisled in stone, this guy is an ex Tory bastard who would sell his mother to get back in the game. He was part of the gang before and would be again at the drop of a hat. I would rather move to Greece and donate all my bullion to help bail the lazy bastards out and spend the rest of my days picking olives before I would vote for him or his party.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 16:59 | 1390239 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

Will Bankers take home record high Bonuses again like they did in 2009 and 2010?

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:13 | 1390309 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Nigel Farage has been rocking it against the EU lately. He's right. It's about democracy vs bankster enslavement without self-determination by the people. It's the NWO unmasked.

To those who say Farage was a laughing stock from a bankrupt political party ..... look who are the bankrupt laughing stocks now -- ie., EU, IMF, and Euro CBs.  Our elitist media does the same thing to Ron Paul, so ignore the propaganda.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 17:44 | 1390427 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

I think they should default, pure and simple.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 18:12 | 1390564 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

And who is to say the US monetary policy won't be challenged when the US government tries to hold all it citizens responsible for the debts created by a few reckless states?  There could be regional fighting, IE the residents of some states like North Dakota might refuse to shoulder the burden of debts in states like Illinois and California.  The plot thickens.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!