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NYSE Common Stock Volume Plunges To Sub-2001 Levels
When we pointed out our volume chart earlier, which indicated that volume is now a laughable joke, we received one of the traditionally amusing responses, "ZH misses the point on volume because they data mine and only compare it to the volume during the crisis. SPY volume is STILL higher today than it was pre-2007. So are we to believe that the crisis volume levels are the "real" levels for volume? If you compare back to pre-crisis, volume is actually still pretty high." Here is our response.
For those who refuse to accept the reality, and/or are unable to interpret what the chart says, allow us to explain: NYSE common stock volume is lower than it was in 2010, in 2009, in 2008, in 2007, in 2006, in 2005, in 2004, in 2003, in 2002 and in 2001. We stopped there (couldn't help it - felt obligated to data mine a little bit).
And incidentally, here is why the Deutsche Borse better be able to sell the NYSE for scrap value.
No worries though - the NYSE liquidation value should be surging quite soon. We hear all those collocation boxes can fetch a pretty penny when the price of stainless steel hits infinity.
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OWNED!
With the huge amount of volume which has been moved off-exchange, this is still a useless exercise. IF you can figure out the real total volume, you might have a point to make.
You mean the buying done by the PDs? They'll account for 100% of the volume soon.
You are raising a legitimate question so i dont know why your post was flaged junk. Still though the answer is a bit more complicated. You are right saying much volume has moved off-exchange and into dark pools, ecns and so on but the question is what kind of liquidity and volume is it and who stands behind it?
Looking at on-exchange volume and liquidity reveals one thing for sure and that is that participation by retail and small institutionals is still low and lower than the previous years.
What that means for market structure, stability and the proper and efficient function of the capital markets as a source of funding and, yes true that, long-term capital, has to be seen.
I will not say that our markets are totally disfunctional today but some serious questions need to be answered.
It's all those one year old babies trading on E-Trade.
Retail, ...etc also trades on ECNs and other ATS so I would not infer too much from the on-exchange volume. AFAIK all trades regardless of execution venue must print on the consolidated tape. That would imply the ZH analysis is correct.
What does that have to do with it? Most ZH's believe the "junk" flag is their "dislike" button. The concept has been broken for a very long time.
The volume graph uncannily resembles the U.S. workforce participation graph.
Coinky dink?
Anyone find it interesting that Tyler used the ES volume as his defense in the first piece, then I go to the SPY volume to prove he is data mining..... and then he writes this using the NYSE?
Here is the S&P 500 volume going back 50 years.
http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/data.exe/sp/sp05
The case statnds that the SP 500 today has more volume than it did through most of the climb from the 2002 lows until the 2007 peak.
Why would you write about the ES volume when you had NYSE volume in mind in the first place?
Bottom line is SP 500 volume has not collapsed as was mentioned in the first article.
Of course the cult here will see nothing wrong with this bait and switch. And I am honored that by cover blowing was enough to cause another article. Who woulda thunk little ole me could get on the radar for calling out the truth here at ZH.
In chart format:
http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/charter.exe/sp/sp05
Even more data that is not data mined or series that don't make much sense like a 200 day moving average. Direct from the NYSE:
"NYSE Daily Share Volume includes NYSE volume in all issues traded at the NYSE executed by NYSE. NYSE Group Daily Share Volume in NYSE Listed Issues volume includes volume in NYSE Listed Issues executed by NYSE and NYSE Arca."
http://www.nyxdata.com/nysedata/asp/factbook/viewer_edition.asp?mode=tab...
2009 shows group volume in the 30-50 billion dollar range every day, not much different than 2010 and 2011 numbers. And the NYSE group shares seem to be about the same just eyeballing it as years ago.
Maybe I am missing something? Still not buying that volume is somehow in the toilet historically.
Dollars != Volume, or are you really that retarded? If 5 shares were the only thing trading today at $10 billion per share, does that mean volume is normal? You really are quite dense if you believe that is correct.
Additionally, you seem to not understand the difference between the NYSE and the S&P500, and I have no fucking clue why you were trying to point to an ETF as indicitive as the over all volume of shares traded. I suggest you take some basic finance courses at your local community college before you continue posting.
Look at the data again Mr. Anger Problem (but hey - the doom and gloom around ZH can cause that) - it has both dollars and share volume, and they haven't changed much. I ended up using actual SP 500 index volume - not the ETF in the above example as well. It looks about the same as the tracking ETF - imagine that.
http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/charter.exe/sp/sp05
Since you missed the truth through your doom colored glasses, the comment I made was:
"2009 shows group volume in the 30-50 billion dollar range every day, not much different than 2010 and 2011 numbers. And the NYSE group shares seem to be about the same just eyeballing it as years ago"
As in group share volume.
pwned ;)
Wow, seriously?!? Look at what you just quoted again. Still talking about dollars as that is anything to rate share volume by. Again share volume != dollar volume. Shares trades are the actual shares not the dollar value of those shares traded. I'm not talking about averages either. If I had a link to a site that had the info for free for the NYSE then I would. Unfortunately that info is only done by subscription basis. But what you can find out is that there are 2317 different stocks on the NYSE that one can choose from, so 500 is not the full cabose.
I'll keep repeating it since you keep missing it, this time without the first sentence:
"And the NYSE group shares seem to be about the same just eyeballing it as years ago"
As in group share volume."
To help you with what group share volume is, I repeat yet again from the NYSE site itself:
"NYSE Daily Share Volume includes NYSE volume in all issues traded at the NYSE executed by NYSE. NYSE Group Daily Share Volume in NYSE Listed Issues volume includes volume in NYSE Listed Issues executed by NYSE and NYSE Arca."
Group share volume of the NYSE, just eyeballing the day to day volume - hasn't changed all too much.
Regardless, Tyler was using the ES - which is the SP 500 futures to show how bad volume was. So I was saying in the last post, SP 500 volume today, although lower than the crisis time, is still higher than pre crisis.
Of which Tyler was then offended and thought himself cute by posting my comment as the impetus for a new article, and then proceeded to show the 200 MA of volume on the NYSE....
huh?
That's fine and dandy, this is his site and he can say what he wants. I just found it interesting that no one but me caught the slight of hand.
He has a true cult following.
No charge for this lesson.... ;)
Since you're comparing dollar volumes, why not use Z$ as today's measure? They're both dollars, and it looks even better. Right?
For the statistically less challenged, it's pretty clear that the if argument about dollar volume were to even a drop of hold water, one would need to use inflation adjusted volumes as a minimal starting point, and that's real inflation, not what your fine gubernymint publishes. Tyler's approach of useing numerical volumes seems sooooo much more realistic, at least it compares apples to apples.
This data seems correct, and it's disappointing that more people don't respond to your question in a reasonable way, for example by actually reading your posts -- and that Tyler seems to be data mining to support his thesis. Thanks for persisting in pointing out the error.
Tyler's thesis that the market is a hoax could still be accurate, if we could deduct the HFT churn. I don't know where to get that data though. Even if the thesis is "correct" it doesn't make it OK to cherry-pick data to support it. If I want bogus data, I can always go to the BLS website.
Thanks Derp
You may be the only other reasonable person on this site. At least you are the only one not clouded enough to read the ENTIRE post. The fact tha another came on and ranted about dollar volume is a bit shocking. Makes you wonder if he read anything but the other guys post.
I seem to recall that Daimler-Benz once owned Chrysler. Deutsche Bourse, watch out, some o'deez blushing-bride American companies might be packing "junk in the trunk"!
Clearly you are picking data points. You have to go back to before the beginning of time to really be impartial. Hell, we are WAYYYY up from the constant zero volume that we saw before the exchange was founded!
He called the creationist museum, and they confirmed; lowest volume since JC rode in on a dinosaur 6k years ago.. the beginning.
Volume, Volume? We don't need no stinking Volume!
All your Volumes are belong to us.
Jim Cramer I presume. For a nano-second HFT trade I thought you were talking about Jesus Christ. Silly me.
WHERE'S THE MIGHTY ALL-POWERFUL FUKING FEDERAL RESERVE???
All i hear all bloody day is stocks are a Fed conspiracy and "Don't fight the Fed" the markets are going skywards. How can you fight the Fed when their cavalry can't be seen anywhere to be fought? The volumes on all 3 US markets have been pitiful and same goes for most European Indexes, where is the mighty midget worrier!!!
If the Fed are pumping up stocks where's the hard evidence of the bearded midgets steroid abuse? Everyone and their cat has been crediting the Fed with this stock market rally but these blind pussies haven't noticed it's just the usual dead cat bounce not the tubby midget punching above his weight.
Let's be fair too, everything the Fed says is total BS designed to sucker the gullible. So when the Fed says they're focusing on stocks you can bet their money is just being pissed down a toilet at another Wall Street bank or Treasury bailout (because no foreigners will buy their toxic shit) to prop them up.
This is one humongous dead cat bounce! There is no way a market can perform like stocks have been performing without help. That dead cat must have been getting high on helium before falling off the cliff.
What, the pig Market is closed? Just can't tell anymore....
Lean Hog or Pork Bellies?
Yowza...that buy and hold philosoopy must be coming back in vogue.
Short and gold?
You might not be far off. People who used to put money into their 401K -- now are not. But they are not liquidating the 401K either. So they are not buying or selling.
Now it can be argued, especially based on current insider selling ratio and everything else that is going on, that they should sell. But then what are they going to do? They either leave their 401K dollars IN dollars -- an obviously bad move -- or put them somewhere else. Problem is, you can't buy physical gold and silver with 401K (oh yeah you CAN in the sense that you can give it to someone who claims to buy the gold and silver and do you trust that?) So people are stuck.
you nailed my situation perfectly
Most 401k's will let you borrow your own money, usually up to 50%, and do what ever you wish. Take half, buy gold and silver, and do a 5 year repayment plan.
I did.
Cooter
Oh look, my trade of 10 shares during lunch time made a significant blip in volumes! I'm a market mover now boo-yah!
Geez, another falls victim to NFLX. All bow heads in mourning.
I'm looking forward to the day when science isolates the coloration-gene from tigers and can find a way to place it in common house-cats, that would really be the cat's meow!
I've pointed this out in past posts but I think it's appropriate to mention it once again :
Take a look at a chart of the DJIA or the S&P 500 from the 2009 bottom to the present day . Then take a look at volume over the same period . Compare the two . The inverse correlation between the indexes and volume is glaring .
Stainless is fine and all, but how much actual tungsten do they contain? That's where the action is, yeah man.
I am Jacks smirking revenge:-)
Do these idiots think we are that stupid. What the F.... Don't know when this will end but it will be the shot "heard round the world".
Divergence trades = suicide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tozX9DzLKj0
So that's how Mark did it! Was semi-curious....
And if you only counted non-HFT trades...yikes!!!
And how much of this is High Frequency Trading playing musical chairs?
thanks for the chart TD. Very nice.
More M&A business for da bankers.
Selling more exchanges.
Well. My 10 shares were not traded with any frequency. So there's a data point for you.
This is bullish, right?
yeah. but only if I go short.
WE HAVE A BUNCH OF COMEDIANS HERE, DON'T WE !?
THE POINT IS, WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR PRETTY LITTLE CHARTS, PROVIDE;
1) Your typical short term perspective
2) A long term perspective TO PROVE YOUR CASE!
WITHOUT THAT YOUR CASE IS NOT PROVEN AND SHOULD FALL ON DEAF EARS!!
Did you intend to be funny? Cuz that was funny. If not then my apologies for laughing.
You'll be laughing in a 6x6 jail cell once I find you in contempt.
HOW'S THAT FOR FUNNY !?
I'm 6' 6" good luck getting me in there.
That's only going to be helpful if you are 6'6" in all directions.
Well biologist cat. What you guess would be my measurement from fingertip to fingertip arms extended?
HEY SMART GUY.
6x6 IS LENGTH x WIDTH. I DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE 10 FEET TALL.
IF YOU WANT TO SMART-TALK TO JUDGE JUDY, YOU'RE GOING TO BE
IN CONTEMPT !! YOU WILL SUBJECT TO PHYSICAL RESTRAINT IN MY COURTROOM.
JUDGEMENT FOR THE DEFENDANT ! CASE CLOSED!
Penal code 148.
BTW. You're in violation of penal code 302a in my church of fuck your taxes.
LOL if you had asked me 30 years ago if I would eventually study economics or law I would have laughed at you so hard.
Can I be ordained in your church?
I want to be a priest of the Fuck Your Taxes Church.
This could be our theme song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY
Um, your honor, judgments are spelled, you know, like 'judgment'. fyi
Who cares about volume in a BTFD environment?
And Tyler, you might also want to remind your "friend" that its not a great sign that volume was higher at these S&P levels back in 2007 than it is now.
thanks for the follow up. proves what i suspected without doing the actual research for myself.
would all the HFT computer trades be included in this volume also?
And how much of this is High Frequency Traders playing musical chairs?
stop it. You are scaring the troll. The problem is that if I go short the market will zoom and if I go long the market will tank. The market always does the opposite of what I do. It follows me around and calls me nasty names and tells me I am gay. I am not gay! dammit!
Seriously what should I do when all five of my last trades have gone the opposite? I am long the stock market now. Does that tell you anything? However I may yank everything out tomorrow and go short. I don't know what to do and I doubt the market does either. I can fool it with my confusion.
play options. buy straddles.
that is actually a good idea. Volatility is bound to go up, unless I short volatility. This is the worst three month run I have ever had.
I will probably just waste some money on puts. Do something really boring. Cause I gotta believe the market is going to zoom 30 percent! Don't want to lose any upside.
I feel your pain. Been there also. Had a shitty run for a while with equities...finally turned my back on them and went to full time Forex and Futures trading.
I find forex to be much more responsive to chart patterns and thus more predictable...to a degree. It was a good move for me. Much higher success ratio on my trades now....which is good considering this is my only way to keep income comin in.
Have done the same, and judging from volume in the other markets, many others have too.
YOu guys have some good points.
Join the club, top. And options ain't helping either. Ah well, just gotta keep plugging away.
Let me know when you boys get those deck chairs arranged.
Oh wait I am 1 for six. My USO trade worked out.
There's always George Costanza ... you can short yourself. Just do the opposite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKUvKE3bQlY
I tried that, but I kept getting confused if I was doing the opposite, or the opposite of the opposite. Seriously it is hard to outsmart yourself, or outfool yourself.
lol TC you sound as confused as a fart in a perfume factory.
deleted
The less volume there is the easier the manipulation by Bernanke's crooked crew. What do you think the flash crash was? That little engineered move was to scare all sane people out of the market, so the Bernanke could get full control to march this dung heap higher without interruption.
This isn't a market, it's the Bernanke's/government propaganda meter.
The U.S. citizen's have sat by idle and let their great country be taken over by the maddest group of genocidal men there are, and the rest of the world needs to ditch the cancer before it spreads irreparably.
What do you think the flash crash was?
A volume spike...
Exactly. The little volume that there is belongs to the club members George carlin once mentioned. You know.. Its a big club and we aint in it.
Bingo, my thoughts exactly. The thinner the volume, the easier this gets. It's, in no way, intended to help anyone other than those in-the-know. It's pretty obvious that retail simply isn't going to bite at the bait. Therefore, it simply has to go higher and higher and higher and higher.
This is just flat fucked up at this point. Period. Simple. Obvious. Completely and utterly fucked up.
Exactly, they wanted all the peasantry out of their stock markets, their usefullness was over. The rest of the world should just cut their losses from these maniacs before theyre pulled under as well.
Aahh right! So here's your conspiracy theory Boys;
Stocks up = Fed is pumping in QE volumes of funny money
Stocks up but zero evidence of QE volume = it's still a conspiracy
How can the Fed lose when you guys see the conspiracy no matter what happens and no matter which way the evidence points... even in totally the opposite direction of your Fed QE conspiracy???
Any chance there's just no volume and just no conspiracy Boys? ...no, didn't think so, stupid thought!
thanks for the junk Boys, sorry to allow a little light (evidence) in on your delusional conspiracy theories
Junked for the excessive use of "boys" you silly cunt
there be no shelter here
I'm neither silly coz i'm making a serious point nor a cunt coz I'm a BOY ...you're junked arsehole for being a pointless bitch
No. You're silly because
a) you try to be hipster by using 'coz', but then
b) look really fucking stupid by making a triple post
I'm neither silly coz i'm making a serious point nor a cunt coz I'm a BOY ...you're junked arsehole for being a pointless bitch
I'm neither silly coz i'm making a serious point nor a cunt coz I'm a BOY ...you're junked for being a pointless bitch
Truer words never spoken, you are obviously a BOY
know your enemy
"know your enemy" indeed.... I've got you down as a tranny, how am i doing?
close, ZG... I'd guess it's some little four-eyes weasel in his momma's basement hiding behind the bitchenest avatar he could find.... let's see if she/he comes up with anything intelligent the next few weeks
shall we hold our breath for a showing of tranny IQ or will we run out of O2 before then?!!
I have been out of the market since Jul 10 last year. I cannot believe our government allows this crap. Our Democracy is almost a Plutocracy (at least we can still vote), Capitalism has been dead for the last 30 years. This is going to end ugly, and if you can't realize that, then just do me a favor and stay in the market and BTFD you moron.
anybody noticing the /ES nose diving in AH?
-2 points?
PLUNNNNNGGGGIIINNNNGGG @ terminal velocity
It'll be +3 handles by the time I drop some turds in the bowl at around 7:15 in the a.m. tomorrow.
1330 to 1325 - 2 points? And you trade with those math skills?
the drop from 3:55 PM to 4:55 PM was the biggest move of the day.
I'm not sure what chart you are looking at...but it sure as fuck ain't a live one.
...and it will be completely reversed by 9:35 am tomorrow.
Seriously, who gives a fuck? When I deep asleep and banging the young version of Ms. Silverstone (from the Crush, naturally), this will magically be levitated and rainbows, puppy dogs, and gumdrops will the order of the day.
people who trade give a fuck since trading futures does not limit us to trading between 9:30 - 4PM M-F.
that 5 point move is a lot of money if you're on the right side of the trade.
Then, you had best trade it before I take my morning dump.
Lol, duly noted.
OT, but thought it was interesting.
South Carolina lawmaker wants separate currency for statehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110214/us_yblog_thelookout/south-carolina-lawmaker-wants-separate-currency-for-state
Hey thanks, that was sort of interesting.
I just read one I thought was pretty interesting as well, has video
Woman stripped naked in jail cell
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2011/02/14/17273781.html#/news/canada/2011/02/14/pf-17273781.html
Does this mean that there are fewer High Net Worth individuals, or more low volume rich people?
Stock market = 401k bank vault or CALpers vault.
Found it!!
http://batstrading.com/market_data/daily_volume/2011Q1/
Short gold, long silver. But not for long, if that makes any sense.
Why is the stock market important?
Is it a sign of the health of a nation that "everybody" is buying and selling stock shares?
Maybe there is LESS speculation. Maybe there is less TRADING.
What exactly is the point of pointing out low volume in the stock markets. Eh, Tyler??
gh
2nd most misinformed post of the day. I recommend reading up on HFT and healthy markets in general.
Sellstop
The Stock Indexes are the leading economic indicator. Where the Indexes go the economy follows...
that was funny.
(you are joking right?)
Really. So in 1999 the economy was going to get even better, right.
In 2007, the economy was strong?
And now, the economy is strong?. Or weak?. If the stock market is an economic indicator, why all the angst.
The economy is improving. Right?
Is the Fed money going straight into the stock and speculative markets? Is it still an economic indicator?
NO.
The stock market goes up because people buy stocks. Because they are optimistic.
The market goes down when people sell stocks. They are collectively more pessimistic.
Markets are NOT efficient. Not all of the time. And the stock market does not reflect the economic health of the country as a whole. It reflects the economic health of the financial country. The stock market doesn't care how many homeless roam the streets. It doesn't care how many people die from violence on the streets. Until they revolt.(Egypt)
The stock market is an indicator of investor sentiment, and an indicator of corporate profitability. And I don't think that corporate profitability neccessarily correlates to a healthy and sustainable economy.
gh
Stock market prices have successfully predicted 12 out of the last 7 recessions ;)
Maybe there is less population in sheeple willing to gamble.
Bitch slapped.
If you 'buy and hold', there is no reason to trade or have any volume. And if no-one is selling......then prices go up. Russell 36,000!!!!!!
Huh?
HFTs circle jerking.
Who's the pivot person (a.k.a. cum dumpster?)
10kby2k
Nobody "buys and holds' anymore so that's not the reason for low volumes. The average 'hold' has come down from 36 months to 6-9 months now, that's not so much a sign of the times but more a sign that 'Buy and Hold' doesn't fuking work as an investment strategy!
Only last year I watched some total dork who managed a fund of $3bn plus on CNBC explain how he was a 'value investor' holding stocks for 10 years or more. I almost pissed myself (almost!)
To put that in perspective most businessmen have very little idea where their business will be in 1 year because change is happening so fast nowadays. So if the businessmen running their businesses couldn't give you an honest idea of how they'll be in a year what chance this 'value investor' having an f'n clue 10 years ahead???
dup
Dup
Average 'hold' time for a stock is less than 1 minute - pulled that fact out of thin air just like the rest of you post. Laughable at best.
there be no shelter here
Maybe businessmen who don't have any idea where their business will be in a year are just fucking stupid? We like to pretend every leader is a unique snowflake without whom the world would collapse, but the truth is that alot of them are just warm bodies. Perhaps that fund manager was holding something like Intel or Apple...you've heard of computers, right?
You need someone to buy for your "theory" to actually work...
Technically, no volume means no one is buying, and prices go down.
What new planet are you from, again?
Bitch Bank A sells to Bitch Bank B, gets paid per share. Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum.
Bitch Bank A can rebuy said shares back from Bitch Bank B in a subpenny loss price, and still make bucks.
Just criminal. Kickbacks elsewhere get you orange jump suits.
The scheme would fall apart if subpennying was done away with, which is why it still exists.
Working people all across America are seeing their returns from their bond funds go down. They are allocating more to stocks. It is a steady flow. It is buy and hold. They like to buy the dips. Like buying tomatoes. Buy a couple extra when they are on sale.
And as market volatility goes down, it is harder to make money actively trading. (Believe me, I know!) So, the traders quit being so active, volume declines. But until something spooks a lot of people the indexes can rise on low volume. And the periodic selloffs can be met with buying.
There are some big money interests buying on the dips also. "Big money" needs volume to buy in quantity.
Low volatility is low fear. Not bad for an economy that depends on confidence.
gh
..."No worries though - the NYSE liquidation value should be surging quite soon. We hear all those collocation boxes can fetch a pretty penny when the price of stainless steel hits infinity."
somebody smoking the hopium, alas.
I F-ing LOVE this site. You guys ROCK.
The place is a rush, that's for sure.
One ETF does not a market make. But since they brought it up.....
There are 342 Million shares of SPY. The three month average volume is 193,000,000.
Does it concern anyone else that we're supposed to believe that daily volume averages 56.4% of outstanding shares?
Common stock?! Geez, I thought the post this morning was about ES volume and figured traders were just shying away from the manipulation for a bit.
What is the point. The volume is low, so what?
We are headed up. You snooze you loose
escalator up...express elevator down. you play long...you snooze...wipe out.
This has me confused.
https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22SPY+volume+is+STILL+highe...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48842765/Volume-Dropping
vs
The wording in the Pamria document is pretty awkward. Is ZH in partnership with Pamria or did they just plagerize this, take out the snide language and throw it up to their clients?
It would be reasonable to consider that the volume plunge is a result of the very recent, (Yesterday) of Deutch Borse' intent to purchase the NYSE.
http://ow.ly/3VJBb
And
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Git-HLSc_Q
Hedge Funds, Position Traders, Liquidity Providers (HFT), and Hot Money Speculators all exist to prey on Alpha Investors. No doubt they are the favorites of the brokers and exchanges too, since they pay them larger commissions. When their activity is a small portion of the market things seem to be in balance. But, as their numbers grow their Alpha Prey gets scarce and hides, like a lone field mouse running from a pack of wolves. Soon the wolves will have no choice but to start feeding on themselves.
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