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Oil Gusher Worse Than Ever
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What I said had nothing to do with killing people or shrimp. Obviously there is no tragic human toll here to compare with 9/11. NOT the point.
The point was if we don't respond emotionally and with resolve to this entirely preventable failure of human engineering, if we don't remember the enormous costs of playing with dangerous forces and think through all possible consequences before proceeding blindly ahead, then things like this and worse will just keep happening. So yes let's have some damn DRAMA in discussions and the media and start taking responsibility for the powers we are unleashing.
One more thing: this is NOT a simplistic choice between having oil or returning to the stone age for chrissake. All the oil that can be extracted is there for the taking, whether we do it the slow, careful, and -- yes! -- the expensive way, or act like greedy children and ruin our planet in the process, one little catastrophe at a time. If that way costs more, then that is the true cost. Accept it.
May I suggest apathy?
Apathy just isn't my thing (chugs a Red Bull), I favor the death penalty in situations such as these. Seriously. UK does have an extradition treaty with US, no?
I'm responsible because I don't live in a cave with no power? Gee powering that computer on a bike or something? We are past corporate responsibility. BP is going to be a big winner out of this. Worst case for them they do a spin off of good assets and sock J6P with the bill. Remember BP stands to gain mightily on a carbon tax, and this will not be fixed until they can Rahm it through. Never let a crisis go to waste. I'm confident that if they can get the carbon tax through they won't even need to spin off or duck they can extract the fees from us the serfs.
I know you know most of what is in this post, but I needed to assemble the items in one place to respond to you properly.
I am not confident they can fix it. Your thinking is logical, makes sense, but all of it is irrelevant if they can't make it stop.
I agree with DosZap and Cursive down thread that BP, as a group of fellow human beings, are responsible for making poor choices and should be held accountable. In that sense it is not you and I. But you and I create demand for the product.
In the bigger picture, we do not have the resources to sustain infinite growth. Even if we have not reached peak oil production capacity, we are polluting the air and the ocean with the biproducts of the production and use of fossil fuels (for example the island of plastic the size of Texas that floats off of the California coast). We are fouling our nest. We can't keep doing it. Even if we get off the hook this time, one time we won't.
We are brainwashed to believe that we have to consume and "live large" to be okay, that we are entitled to it. If the planet has limits and we are coming up against those limits because of population and lifestyle choices/standard of living, and we don't change our culture in time, carbon credits, Rahm, and the manipulations of the powers that be, be damned. It is our responsibility to defy the programming that tells us to consume in order to drive GDP and make some sociopathic motherfuckers rich.
I remember a story I heard about a couple working two jobs to make ends meet. Did not see each other much, took shifts with the kids, etc. They stopped one day and looked at all they spent/consumed in order to have the two jobs. Turned out that they both needed to pay for lots of equipment, insurance, gas, etc. to have those jobs and did better financially if she did not work and just stayed home with the kids. She broke down crying to realize the stress they had been under they did not need.
Overconsumption is toxic to the environment and to the soul. We are responsible to wake up to that reality and not passively reproduce what has been handed to us. We can stop being serfs enslaved to the oil companies.
been mulling over your first post on this thread MsC, which I didn't reply to then because I respect you as a poster, and I wanted any reply to reflect that. . . also, some of the responses you got just annoyed me, which tends to bring out the smartassery.
I'm glad I waited, as your later posts articulate what I wanted to say. . . that many (not all) people come to a tipping point that marks significant life changes to follow. . . I've lived most of my life in "voluntary simplicity" - with the emphasis on "voluntary" - because I couldn't reconcile trading off my time for extra monies, my own time being infinitely valuable to me. . . it was easy to live simply in my community of artists/musicians/creative folk while I was in Europe, but coming back to amrka meant being considered a bit "lazy" for not wanting to work to own a house or bigass car, or various other things people measure themselves by here. . . it took me a long time, and some false starts, to re-construct a good circle of reliable people here that had the same values as I do, but it's been worth it. . .
particularly of late, because we can see others starting to lose it, the fear is becoming more visible, and the anger as well. . . more people are looking for new solutions to survival, even if they're not really able to implement much as yet.
anyhow, I think what I wanted to say is, sounds like you're having one of those moments of absolute clarity, where you see what you want to change and are ready to actually become what you envision - I've no idea what that means to you, but I've no doubt you'll do it with integrity.
peace to you, and yours.
CA, thoughtful response to a thoughtful post.
The big divide, I feel, is between thinking and doing.
Thinking is easy. We do it all the time.
Doing is hard. We think about it all the time.
See?
Walking one's talk should be a very private thing. Shine by being.
Surprising how many more people "notice" rather than listen.
Frugality is a wonderful teacher if self-induced and terrible tyrant if forced from the outside.
I suggest people start practicing.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
On the other hand I will not be enslaved by someone elses guilt...even if we went to the same HS that dropped a shark in the rival schools pool ;-)
I have no problem with someone CHOOSING a minimalist lifestyle...I do have a problem with them imposing it on me.
Not so long ago there were those who said we could not build nuclear power plants because they are too dangerous.
So we didn't.
nmewn
"I have no problem with someone CHOOSING a minimalist lifestyle...I do have a problem with them imposing it on me."
How true.Tyranny is tyranny whether it's source be masses or minority.
Ever read Sometimes a Great Notion?
"How true.Tyranny is tyranny whether it's source be masses or minority."
Something to be avoided at any cost.
"Ever read Sometimes a Great Notion?"
No I haven't. Just read a synopsis of it, which of course is not the same as fully contemplating all aspects of the work.
As individuals, we make our decisions and the honest among us live with it the rest of our lives whether with regret or satisfaction as a part of what makes us up today.
For myself, I take solace in the fact that no matter what the outcome of my past actions (good or bad for others or myself) I learned and moved on.
I can honestly say I wouldn't change a thing...even a bad experience can be useful for future decision making. Provided one survives it of course...LOL.
Did you see the movie? Sometimes it just doesn't pay to laugh. Saw the movie as a young adult and I'm still traumatized by that scene. It pops into my mind unbiden from time to time.
See post above you. I think there is not so much disagreement.
We dumped the shark not jumped it, eh?
"We dumped the shark not jumped it, eh?"
LOL...I should know better than to cross swords with you ;-)
Peace...later.
The Davis Besse Nuclear Power Plant has had some very dangerous situations lately. Given the gov'ts response to the BP disaster, I don't think more nuclear power plants are a wise choice.
"The Davis Besse Nuclear Power Plant has had some very dangerous situations"
I work in the industry. Yes, due to myopic management, they are a black eye to our community.
"Nukular pawr" can be a safe and efficient power source, you just need a committed culture to safety and "ownership". Since I live within the the EPZ1 of where I work, I take my responsibilities very seriously.
I would buy an electric car to commute in if they only had recharging stations at work. Imagine that - work at a plant that produces electricity and they don't have outlets in the parking lot (otherwise I would have utilized them to plug in my diesel vehicle while working night shift during the winter!).
1 - Emergency Planning Zone.
Wood fired steam engines then? Horse and buggy? Mass nickel cadium run in series? Blood for lithium from deposits in Afgahnistan? Tallow candles from animals?
There is a trade off in everything...LOL...ying yang.
Oil distillates go into the manufacture of the monitor your seeing these words printed on right now.
Hydrogen would be "cool" ;-)
One word -- France.
One word - Thorium
- fuck yeah, - Thorium, there's an infinite supply.
Yes. +1000
1. I don't know if they can or cannot stop it. All I know is they have done their damndest to make it as large a crisis as possible. What's more I know they don't care if they can stop it. We are dealing with psychopaths.
2. Yes humanity creates demand for the product. Why because it makes our lives better. If you doubt me I challenge you to go 1 month not using ANYTHING that has no power intake or petroleum based. I think you would be hard pressed to do that feat, anyone living with a lifestyle in the modern era would.
3. I agree resources are not infinite. So who should decide who gets them? You? BP? The UN? Our Congress? Who gets to decide who lives and who dies? How about letting the market decide and let evolution work. If evolution forces us to fight for resources so be it. Far better that I die competing for resources then be killed my some bureaucrat because I am not deemed worthy or essential to their society. Also regression is not an option, you try to keep this pop without high intensity farming and it's mass starvation. Read somewhere that traditional farming gets us food for 1 billion, so are you going to volunteer to be part of the 5/6 to die of hunger?. Those who wish to pull themselves out of hte resource race, God bless. Feel free to stop using resources.
4. The very same people who are telling us to be austere and the world is in danger seem to live large. Old Al Gore seems to have a lot of huge high energy cost homes. And yet he jets around the world, very large carbon footprint, but like the great scam of old he buys indulgences! I was born in the twilight of liberty not in the height of feudalism and and I don't care to willingly subject myself to the new feudal lords. I will not accept their religion.
If you think the world is so unsustainable, why did you have children (you did IIRC)? Why do you use power now? Are you willing to live like a medieval serf for the Earth? Are you willing to be part of the 5/6 to starve for the Earth? You talk of over consumption, are you guilty of that as well? Surly using ZH is a luxury you could do without, the internet uses power after all. And using power is "evil". The whole paradigm of "sustainability" is anti progress. I don't care if you want to preach anti progress and a regression to the iron age, but do me a favor and live it before you advocate it. I have to deal with to many people in RL that tell me to cut my energy and water use while they drive SUVs and have swimming pools.
In the end no matter what we do we will run out of resources. I would rather see mankind reach and stretch out then crawl back into the iron age waiting for a miracle.
I 've noticed for long how humanity is convenient for people who want to dilute their responsibility. Nearly make you think humanity as a concept was invented for that.
Huh, no. Humanity does not create demand for the product. Consumers do.
And they do on level with their consumption.
Some of the humanity who do not consume oil do not create demand for the product.
And the amazonian tribe do create a demand far smaller than the US common citizen demand.
Qualifiable and quantifiable.
Non cogent. Market and evolution? But evolution is undependent of the market as it exists without a market.
Evolution might have led to the different markets during history.
As it might have led to bureaucratic selection.
Be nice to fat Al Gore... he is a victim... his second chakra is stuck and needs a release. Anyone care to volunteer and save the world from AGM?
I do not want to impose anything on anyone. I do want to exercise my freedom of speech to ask folks to consider that they may be caught up in a rat race, chasing a standard of living, consuming for the sake of consuming, and it is not enriching their experience here on earth. Hopefully you find that to be fair enough?
I think there is an artificial polarization going on here. It is not all or nothing. You're a grad student. You likely live "austerely." I am a professor. I lived with debt for a long time (kept getting worse and worse) but finally got "austere" and paid it off (divorced a resource drain). There is a lot less stress in my life now. I am saving money for what I expect to be my inevitable unemployment when the state finally says "we can't afford you any more." My husband and I have one car (paid for). My husband works out of our house and I walk 7 blocks to work. We use bikes for recreation and to grocery shop. Insurance on a 2000 Toyota Echo that you do not drive to work is cheap (military insurance very cheap)! Our house is small by modern Mc Mansion standards, but paid for. There is always room for improvement. These choices may not be for you, but other ones could be. No one has to live in a mud hut. Humans have always had to be careful and conserve. Oddly, by not practicing some "austerity," by not having to store, hunt and forage, we are, as a population overweight and obese as a result. Unhealthy amidst plenty.
I agree Al Gore needs to stop humping masseuses like a crazed sex poodle, and burning his lights all at the same time at the mansion. I have nothing but contempt for that guy. I think we disagree less than you do. I have read your posts for a while now. You are sensible and frugal. Why not make it "in style" to do so instead of "in style" to show bling and consume?
I have 0 problem with people who walk the walk. My issue is I have literally had years of arguments with professors that are poster children for the consumer society tell me to live like a monk. I know in one instance I was arguing with them in the parking lot, they turned and got into a colossus new SUV, I turned and got into my 10 year old sub-compact car. Funny, they were railing against over using energy. I had one professor advocate a 3 galleon a day cap on water consumption, funny thing is he also drove an SUV, and had a pool and lived in a huge house with an exquisite lawn. I could go on and on. Professor after professor tried to shove "green" living down my throats and without exception were hypocrites. So part of this is my bias for professors telling me to "be green" while they climb into their Land Rovers. It's the same bile I have towards TV preachers. I want them to walk the walk before they try to put a guilt trip on me.
Oh my lifestyle has always been "austere", it comes from having to grow up poor. I'm horrified of the idea of being caught without money. I live in "the barrio" in an apartment (damn rich roomie moved) because it's cheap and 2 miles from work and my gym. I have always driven small cars. I buy in bulk and with reduced packaging. I avoid over using climate control in my living arrangements if possible. But I don't do these things for the "earth" or some such nonsense. I do it because it's economically efficient, by saving energy and resources I save money. If we let market forces act then people will have the choice to live sensible or high on the hog. The ability to take on limitless personal and public debt is distorting what the market might be trying to tell us. I have no problem with people consuming everything they produce (Ant and Grasshopper fable), however when the system lets them over consume is when we run into problems.
I have no problems with making economic decisions. But when I hear the terminology you use it sets off warning bells in my head. Because experience has taught me that a call for gov action to decide the crisis is right around the corner. If I choose to live beneath my means that is a choice, if the government decides my maximum level of living ( or put artificial constraints on it) then I have no choice. So I have no problem with your freedom of speech, and asking people to think of their choices is great. My problem stems from those in your profession I have clashed with that advocate "Do as I say, not as I do"
And yes I am that idiot that will argue this and call the prof out in class. Helped me get over my fear of social pressure...
I did the math for a co-worker of mine. Day-care for two kids, and extra car with insurance, maid, etc., so she could make $60K a year and see $35K of it after taxes. In reality, she was paying to work, and made no financial sense. Her answer, I don't want to be around my kids...it's worth it to only be around them an hour a day.
Yaay.
Wow...that is possibly one of the most heartless things I've ever heard. I only ave nephews and I'll go out of my way to spend time with them... Have we gone that far culturally that people will pay to not see their children?
The kid ticket has been punched. Time to introduce the hubby to the Au Pair... Then bitch about how life has lost its meaning now that hubby is having an affair.
Sad.
Missy, I'm generally with you on the culpability issue. I could counter by saying that just because I fly on airplanes I'm responsible (...er, culpable) for the crash of an airplane. I think not. It still boils down to the provider of the goods or services. The government being "responsible" for having untainted food and baby seats that don't kill infants is absurd as well. It is the job of the manufacturers to see to it that their products are safe. Sufficient fines (including a fine that bankrupts the company) will solve the problem. There are undoubtedly flaws in all the arguments but my brain hurts. And my heart hurts for the folks of the Gulf Coast, the dolphins, the whales, and the harm the whole thing does to "technology".
Support Cap and Trade, and you WILL be enslaved to oil companies. Or do you think BP wrote most of the proposed legislation because they are environmentally responsible citizens? BP would never sacrifice the environment for profit, would they?
I do not support cap and trade. I support voluntarily cutting down our individual consumption. It will make us less stressed keeping up with the payments, and we will foul the planet less. Like the complexity of derivatives, so goes the days of our lives. It doesn't need to be this hard. Consume less, work less.
BTW, I have not lived in a third world country (you asked this down thread), but I have been homeless as a child, living on the street and in abandoned houses, from the time I was 2 till the time I was 8. I left home at 16 to go to college to get out of the circumstances I was in. I know how little it takes to make me happy, from experience. It is all relative.
MsC, you were not by any chance a member of the class of '98 at Radcliffe, were you? Blue hair and rock climbing?
But in all seriousness, you make a good point. What perhaps few seem willing to concede is that there is vast spectrum between cave-living, and mindlessly consuming as much (and more) as is possible in this wonderfully distortive incentive-free consumer culture that the US has become. 300M+ 'consumers' at this level ratcheting back 10-15% has greater impact than millions of hut-dwellers switching to more efficient wood-fired furnaces instead of open-pit fires to cut back on CO2 emissions (and selling the carbon credits for sustenance, water, medicine).
Agreed. We can consume less, and enjoy a better standard of living. I still remember visiting Sri Lankan Tea Plantations, where the average worker makes less than 1 dollar for 10-12 hours of work. They have literally nothing, yet they smile more than the typical american. Makes you think...
Living on the streets in America is tough, but try doing it in Central and South America. We are truly blessed.
I suggest you compare and contrast the definitions of "culpable" and "responsible". MsCreant said "culpable".
Culpable and responsible are the same thing here (as in "mea culpa"). If the phrase was, "you're responsible for washing the dishes tonight," then yeah culpable is different.
Culpable: meriting condemnation or blame especially as wrong or harmful
So the only definition difference deals in liability not blame. This still holds humanity in general to blame which is nonsense. As the oil market is a world market if I in America am to blame then so are kids in Saudi Arabia, China, and most importantly Iran. I have issue with blaming the consumption of energy. If people willingly want to turn out their own lights and party like it's 999 in a mud hut, be my guest but I've had my fill of academics telling me my use of energy is evil. I happen to like living with energy, call me crazy.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/how-bad-for-the-environment-can-throwing-away-one,2892/
Oil market is a world market. Okay. After that, I cant follow.
Mind to explain how you jumped from world market and kids in SA, CH, IR?
Shameful
If you pulled off your underwear tonight and found a long black skid mark where you're butts been rubbing all day, I suspect it would only take your wonderful intellect about 15 minutes to determine you weren't responsible for.....ops, sorry,.....culpable for the skid mark in your underwear.
C'mon CD that doesn't even sound like you...
Ah if we are going to dance around word games then pray tell how am I to blame for BP? Blame vs liable is only one pays the other one is not paying per say. But as a US citizen I will pay, so I guess that would make me somewhat liable at least for the damages. As to blame, please explain how I living many miles away with no BP stock have blame for their corporate actions or the actions of my criminal government?
If this is about my "evil" power use, then I have addressed that below. This is an "evil" epidemic in the west. But I fail to see how the act of one corp, who was likely acting with ulterior motives means I share in it's blame. On that road of tortured logic then we are all to blame for hunger as we are all consumers of food and impacting that market. After all every bite of bread we eat consumes one more mouthful of bread on the Earth of finite resources, pushing up bread demand and making bread makers look for ways to increase production.
Shameful
Dude Cognitive Dissonance pretends to be smarter than he is. The woman he lives with rejected his child rearing advice. How sad is that? Even Louis C.K. gets to raise the kids.
I think BP could plug the bloody thing toute de suite if they just jam something enormous in there, like Obama's ego or Biden's idiocy.
How 'bout Boner's tanning bed?
But they are both buoyant. Hot air and fecal matter both float. You need something really dense. Any more suggestions?
Ben Bernanke's sense of financial reality?
cela est qu'elle a dit?
Quoi?