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Olli Rehn's Upcoming Executive Diktat To Ireland #2: "Double Your Tax Rate"
If you thought Olli Rehn's "intervention" in Ireland's "democratic" process would end with his yesterday involvement in the voting process, you may be surprised to learn that diktat #2 is coming up. As we speculated last week, the first casualty of the Irish loss of sovereignty will be the country's lowest among the DM countries corporate tax rate. Today we read in the RTE that we are one step closer to being proven right: "A row has broken out in the European Parliament over Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax rate. It has emerged that eight, mostly French and German, MEPs have issued
a declaration attacking Ireland's corporate tax rate and calling for a
minimum EU wide corporate tax rate of 25%." Furthermore, these are not just any MEPs: "What has heightened the dispute is the fact that the eight MEPs are all
co-ordinators for the different political groupings in the parliament
and are, as such, representatives for those groupings on an influential
parliamentary committee." While it is not a done deal yet, the days of the Irish tax haven may be numbered: "The declaration invites signatures from other MEPs and if it can gather
the support of 350 MEPs it then becomes the position of the European
Parliament." And here is how the new diktatura will spin its control over the Irish state:
The statement claims that European taxpayers and citizens have been put at risk 'in order to stabilise a financial system which has been profiting from the exceptionally low Irish corporation tax rate of 12.5%'.
It goes on to suggest that Ireland's corporate tax rate is unfair and goes against the spirit of European solidarity, especially given the fact Ireland is receiving a bail-out.
'We urge the European Commission to advance on the dossier of a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base. We urge the European Commission, the Eurogroup and its members to ensure that the corporation tax rate will be increased to the average EU level of 25% in a spirit of solidarity,' the declaration concludes.
Sure enough, the Irish response is vocal:
Irish MEPs are understood to be furious at the declaration given that -
as co-ordinators on the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee (ECON) -
they technically represent the same political groups of which Irish
MEPs are members.
For now, Ireland retains what it believes is a veto:
Any Commission proposals concerning taxation, either the CCCTB or
Corporate Tax, require unanimity, so Ireland retains a veto in this
area.
Then again, Ireland seems to not recognize that its opinion no longer counts: after all it has ceded sovereignty to Olli Rehn and his merry band of thieves. Shortly, we expect Europe will make the tax issue a key trigger for any additional funds in the bailout process, taking any veto ability away from Irish control.
Elsewhere, the Irish parliament has slammed the bailout deal, making any discussions of ongoing leverage over Ireland possibly moot if Ireland does the right thing and says "no mas" to its abdication of sovereign control. From the Irish Times:
During leaders’ questions Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny described the scheme as a “bad deal for Ireland” and said the future of the Irish people and the future of sovereignty had been decided upon behind closed doors.
“What happened last Sunday was a demonstration of art, craft and skill of national destruction," Mr Kenny said.
"This deal…was done as if people didn’t matter, as if people didn’t count and as if people didn’t exist. Do the deal in Brussels and let them [the people] eat cheese as the sleek limousines drive through the slush.”
Here is what Ireland should do: its citizens should quietly convert all their existing capital and savings into precious metals, force the government to default, convert PM into a de novo currency if so desired, give Olli Rehn the middle finger, and preserve their indepedence.
We are not holding our breath.
h/t Mark Mansfield
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"calling for a minimum EU wide corporate tax rate of 25%."
Next step: a world governement, and a unique world tax rate.
Hope I'll be able to colonize space by the time.
I think they are right, nobody should take advantage of such polices if they are in the Union. But at the other hand their help to Ireland should come at 0%, if they are not able to provide it then FUCK-OFF.
"nobody should take advantage of such polices"
No one should take advantage of the policy of not being robbed?
It's time for Iceland to offer special 10% corp. tax rates.
taters need to stand up and DEFAULT. Why are they supposed to destroy themselves to save the bankers? An entire country utterly decimated so the bankers can take multi-million dollar bonuses.
there's a special place in hell...
Yes, there is.
No there's not. That's the kind of subconscious psycological trick that the poor and powerless use to justify their participation in this corruption. Repeat after me: there is no devine retribution.
Thank you, that is all.
Both philosophies may be correct :0
Hint: use Occam's razor.
You're fun at parties :-)
Now that we have stated that there is no devine retribution, as "citizens of EU" (fo f*** sake) we have to state that there is an earthly retribution. Not will be or should be or must be etc. IS.
Diktat No. 2, this is a clear signal what will happen to Irish Sovereignty if they let the EU roll them over.
At this point the slow moving Bearing joins the ZH consensus:
Get it over with Ireland, and DEFAULT!
Default and then what???
Irish currency that buys nothing for a nation that lives on imports? Better to hold off the default as long as possible, borrow as much as possible, and start a massive plan to build up homegrown capabilities for enegry, food, etc.
Otherwise defaulting as a massive importer takes you from the fire and into the oven of the death spiral.
OK, you make a good point re Ireland maybe not ready for default. But, default is going to happen sooner or later.
Maybe Ireland should cut corporate taxes to 10%, particularly for manufacturing. Then default!
Here is where I would disagree. Ireland can issue its own currency and work side deals with OPEC and the Russian Federation in whatever currency they can agree on once they are free from the EMU and the ECB. Defaulting would give them control over their economy.
Sovereign currency can give them room to maneuver. They don't need to collect taxes (other than a small corporate) since they can print whatever they need. It can let them start their own CB as a government utility to loan the new currency to new businesses and projects. They can also further lower their corporate tax rate and change their banking laws to provide safe haven for foreign investors. Ideally, they would become the new Switzerland of banking for gold based accounts. All that foreign money would fire up their economy and provide money for imports.
If they are smart (and their current crop of government employees is not) I would stop collecting all taxes (no need when you are printing your own) and charge a very small (7.5%) tax on corporate earnings. I would use the deposits to buy gold and deposit it in the CB. I would also use interest rates on CB loans to control the amount of currency in circulation and use the interest earned to buy more gold. They wouldn't necessarily back their currency with gold (no need since its just a currency) but use it as a sovereign savings account.
+1
Indeed. Much better plan than rolling over and being raped. The need to become self-sufficient should not be given as a reason to delay the inevitable.
I think not.
Bad conclusion by the author, however, as the Irish Government (cunts) just gave up the country's competitive tax structure to bail out the English, German, and French banks (tiny pricks).
Hedgeless,
I hope you are right that Irish exports can afford Ireland the possibility to default without causing massive slowdowns due to surging imported energy costs, surging imported food costs, etc.
There is no disagreement regarding the default, it's just how and when. The default allows Ireland's currency (and wages) to be globally competitive but Irish citizens need to know their buying power has been illusory and true competitive lower wages will be as painful as the tax burdens. Likely the earning power will rebound sooner than the onerous taxes be reduced...but we need honesty of what default entails.
Default... well, that's what many countries through time have asked. And you know what? Most get through it. Ireland is faced with a lower standard of living, anyway. It's default now or default later. As it stands, the banking system is being allowed to suck capital away from taxpayers... who seem to be faced with the prospect of even higher taxes (and possibly higher unemployment if the EU imposes higher corporate rates).
Now if Ireland decided to go the direction of Greece and accept bailouts, well... negotiate like Greece. Borrow as much as possible with as low a rate from the EU and IMF as entirely possible-- with conditions the country can accept. Ireland should know by now the default option is a house of cards for the EU -- they should use that bargaining chip the same way Greece did. I don't know if it would provide enough time to get Ireland to any degree of self-sufficiency, but if you're going to play the game, abuse the rules.
I think either option stinks for Ireland, quite frankly. But I don't by into the argument that default = Ireland falling off the ends of the earth in a death spiral, either. There are too many examples of past sovereign defaults that suggest otherwise. Default will, however, have more widespread effects on the EU banking system, mostly in parts of the core EU countries.
Um, you do understand that after one country defaults, pretty much the entire system collapses, right? Who's gonna be worried about Ireland, when their own country is being torn apart by enraged citizens?
Dead (Irish) Man walking!!!
My history degree is really paying off nicely now as I seem to remember one Germany being dictated onerous, economy crushing payments post WWI. Now German bankers are working w/ French bankers too suck the remaining blood from all the periphery. Wonder how that will turn out?
Remilitarization bitchez!
Remilitarization bitchez!
I don't think so. TPTB know to keep on paying the military and utilize their willingness to follow the chain of command.
Only option to retalliate will continue to be guerilla / terrorist style actions. But even these will fall apart as those w/ the money will buy their way into any organizations to destroy them.
Wow, just read back through that it doesn't sound very hopeful. Good lord I think I may have finally found the wisdom of Dick Cheney explaining that "if you are getting raped, you might as well relax and enjoy it" (at least I think it was Cheney).
Glad if somebody can explain why I'm totally fucking wrong because I'm really bumming myself out.
two words: vladimir putin
and? Trav, give me a few more words.
You got that right, comrade!
Yup. History does make us wiser if we look back and pay attention to it.
You hear that? That is the sound of many large modern buildings becoming vacant as companies pull out of Ireland as many thousands of Irish become unemployed. Thus removing the tax money said previously employed people were paying the government.
Death spiral ensues...
As soon as enough Irish understand this, then they default or else you are right.
Death spiral ensues.
So the EU has scheduled an appointment for the Celtic Tiger at the spay/neuter clinic. Let us wait and see if it is kept.
This 'call' is an obvious ploy. I bet they (Germany and the Franks) are trying to look better before their own unhappy constituents.
Lost Society .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOshw4kIGR4&feature=player_embedded#!
soon they'll be rationing potatoes and telling the irish how many a day they are allowed to eat.
The English and European Lords get to eat first of course, and the Irish can fight over the scraps that are so graciously bestowed upon them.
And who the phuck is the "EU parliament"? This is incredible.
Everyone, remove your assets from the "system" before they are taken from you.
If this doesnt show the need to pull all money from the banksters and dump all pensions and 401K's, I dont know what would.
When the overlords at my office want to announce another austerity measure for those of us still here (cutting salaries, cutting bagels), they head their memos 'Management Committee'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trd49Da0gf0
Ireland, The first country to have to pay war retributions without fighting/losing a war.
This isn't a war?
It more like a con job to me, but war is not far off.
I am thinking they should simply throw down the gauntlet and say "hell no" and at least go down with a fight. I am thinking that the Scots need to suddenly hike the prices on all 12 year old and older malts just to get something out of this from the banksters. At least make it bloody, fucking expensive for them to enjoy their beloved single malt after dinner on Friday night.
retributions = reparations
Looking forward to the media war over trichet's replacement...
Off topic:
Bank of America could be WikiLeak's next target, Forbes.com reports
Uh oh. I would have preferred JPM.
Maybe it's time for GS and JPM to take out BAC
Makes me want to watch Highlander.
"My name is JP Morgan Chase and I am immortal. I was born in 1799 in New York City. For centuries I have fought in the hall of power with other immortals. The only way to kill another immortal is to take their capital, and with it their power. There are no rules in the great game. The legends speak of the Gathering. A time where all immortals will gather to single location to battle for the Prize. In the end, their can be only one!"
I just hope I'm still alive to see the epic duel between JPM and GS. I think JPM has an edge but GS is a scrappy one!
Please tell me there will be ample flashbacks, those were always the best parts. Perhaps one of Jeckyll Island, Larry Summers in the late 90's, etc..
Given BAC's uber-zombie status, it certainly isn't surprising.
On the twelfth day of Christmas JP Morgan sent to me
Collateralized debt obligations
Look back trading
Credit default swapping
Silver contract shorting
High frequency trading
Stock price fixing
Food stamp arbitrage
PEEK-A-BOO ACCOUNTING
Derivative bombs
Securities fraud
Repo 105
And a fraudulent mortgage for me.
LOL +12
Nice to see the Anti-Dog Eat Dog Act is alive and well.
BTW who gave stocks the double dose IV of Viagra just now? WTF is that all about, desperation move to get the PM rustlers back in equities? Try again idiots.
Yup, the sub has breeched the surface, all green from here me matey.
Please enter Harry ... any second now.
OH ok, CNBC informs me that the markets got a boner due to Obama appointing Geithner to 'do a tax deal'...so in other words the stawks are up due to optimism of possible tax hikes? Now this is just getting too retarded to even watch.
HP has a huge presence there. Once the corp rate goes up, those fancy shmancy high tech jobs go away.
So does AAPL...
And Cisco, Logitec, etc, etc.
Wow. They might as well have told Ireland to go ahead and completely destroy their economy to ensure they are forever enslaved to the debt they just acquired.
Yes; it's just too fucking obvious that the mealy-mouthed 'Parliament' would issue this 'Fiat' to put the fear in the Irish politicians. Methinks they are seeking some other concession and spewed this request just to try to intimidate and look strong before their own taxed serfs.
Well if you can't make it when everywhere you look there is some form of subsidy - then you can't make it period the end.
What's the next step? Indentured servitude?
Dec 7th might be a day to remember.
I very much doubt that this "austerity package" will go through by the 7th.
Certainly not without the Irish serving a few Russian Cocktails...
This deal is not as much about rescuing Ireland as it is about preventing the collapse of the EU. The members of the EU are stuck with each other. If one of these PIIGS defaults the whole system will collapse like a thunderclap.
This particular point should provide the PIIGS some strong leverage should they have the "cojones" to try it.
So true. Ireland has the gun, but is still pointing it at itself.
But I reckon that the two Brians (Cowen & Lenihan) have either been bribed or threatened to such a degree that they will only do the EUs bidding. At one level, I can understand the problem, since threats against children/family are too much for the avg person to bear.
However, another must succeed them in the elections and flip the bird. Maybe they could get IRA protection. Don't forget to send the IRA Olli Rehn's address, you know, so they can bring over some fruitcake for the holiday season.
Doubling the corporate tax rate would actually be quite counterproductive as corporations will flee like cockroaches when the lights are turned on. This could become quite interesting if the EU moves that all member countries must impose a 25% rate. I find it hard that the EU would survive if they made such a bold move.
I love these +1% moves in a day on no news. It really solidifies my resolve that these markets are free from manipulation and proves EMH.
You want to see real Irish riots?
Raise the tax on their alcohol. Throw in a potato tax to see a complete meltdown.
This is a prerequisite to raising citizens taxes. Remove yourself from the EU and reclaim your soveriegnty.
I am a Finn and I know I can't be buying this yellow metal fast enough to off-set the stupidity of Rehn - like idiots...I will be buying a lot of gold...might even ignore the dips, Jesus, this is getting scary.
I'm not Irish, but I think that 25 years ago they were essentially a farming community. The low tax rates were required to attract large companies. So, business came flooding in, jobs came flooding in ... the celtic tiger was born. Along with this greatness came huge speculation on homes and new developments.
Bubble, banks ... and you know the rest.
Looks like they are finally abandoning the lip service to democracy. A new age of rule by unelected bureaucrats. Sorta like the feudalism of old, but with more petty and destructive overlords. Oh what a time we'll have!
Not surprised that EU is looking at standardizing corp tax rates. It fits into the standardization regime. And most nations are in the EU are in that ballpark so few would probably even throw much of a fit about it. The more populous members (France, Germany) are already above it so I can see the EU Parliament letting it slide.
Hard to be too bearish when the transports are barely budging off their highs.
Hard to be anything going off that yearly chart while discussing todays action. At least show a 5 day chart.
You've become a parody of yourself!
You'd think the eggheads in the EU parliament would have the sense of not pissing the Irish before the budget and elections.
Isnt it easier to slip such crap through when no one is looking?
Making idiot proclaimations like this is just angling for a fight.
Someone needs to invite Olli to a stick dance.
Remember, remember, the 7th of December.
if the Irish people lay down and act like bitches u can be assured the bankers will treat them accordingly...like bitches...
how many times do i gotta say it....the funkers bankers gotta go...and i mean disappear...until the people let them know that hot slugs r coming there way aint a FUCKING THING GONNA CHANGE...
fuck all bankers...........
Iceland told everybody to fuck off, defaulted--and are doing fine today: nice clean wound, healing nicely...
Ireland, are you listening??
Meaning? Meaning Irish clerks are still working. Unfortunately, with Ireland, where, as Shaw (?) said, the situation is critical but not serious, even when the clerks are unemployed and chewing hides, they still won't cause a revolution. No one is as fundamentally reactionary/psychotic as the Irish. They would rather die than change their minds. Watch.
I am just back from a trip to Ireland, and it is absolutely certain that if the EU attempts to change the corporation tax rules then the 'Bailout' package, and indeed the whole Government will be shot down in flames by massive public protest.
The Irish people I talked to know very well that the genuine 'Celtic Tiger' economic progress they made (Prior to the Euro induced excessively low interest rate fueled property bubble) was largely due to Ireland's success in attracting Foreign Investment by charging low Corporation Tax rates. They also know that retaining this investment is their only chance of ever climbing out of their current debt trap.
I would be very confident that there is no chance of the EU making this change stick. I really believe Ireland would rather reject the bailout and default. I really hope they do. The EU and ECB have far more to lose from such an event than the Irish do now.
Nonsense. As I say, too many grunts in Ireville are still slaving away. There will NEVER be a revolution in Ireland, even if they are reduced to cannibalism. Give it up.
And really, it even sounds ridiculous? "If we can't have our tax haven/Ponzi scheme, we'll pout and get violent." Squash these "people" like the bugs they are. And that's just what will happen. NOTHING will intervene to prevent it. You're living in Dreamland.
Sounds more like you're the one in dreamland.
The IRA is rearming, and opening up new bomb-making factories. Who do you think their target is going to be?
I hope like hell you're right!
I thought that Eire was already a Republic - why do they need a Republican Army?
Are you certain that you have the correct country?
If I were Irish, I would term you a 'Gobshite'. Possibly even 'A complete fucking Gobshite'.
Nobody is talking about a bloody revolution in the streets. Elections are planned for next Jan/Feb in Ireland. Any party that stands on a platform of rejecting the terms of the bailout and renegotiating will win by a landslide. This has already been demonstrated in a recently contested by-election where the Sinn Fein party (anti-bailout) won a massive landslide victory, and by several surveys of voters, 57% of whom favour default over the current package.
If Ireland defaults, the web of interconnected debt and CDSs will pop the Euro bubble instantly. This is the only reason the bailout was foisted on Ireland. Be assured it was not because the EZ leadership was so concerned about poor little Ireland.
And as for your dismissive "If we can't have our tax haven/Ponzi scheme, we'll pout and get violent." comment, well I'm sure I've heard that before from various insolvent entities that would rather not lose access to their main income stream. Worked for them.
"And as for your dismissive "If we can't have our tax haven/Ponzi scheme, we'll pout and get violent." comment, well I'm sure I've heard that before from various insolvent entities that would rather not lose access to their main income stream. Worked for them."
In other words, "two wrongs make a right".
LMAO
I don't believe you. Are you telling us that people aren't upset that foreign corporations are able to pay a tax rate much lower than they themselves are paying?
Absolutely. For example, Intel employs thousands of people in Leixlip, just outside Dublin. Those Fabs would not be there if it were not for the advantageous tax rates.
12.5% of Intel's profits is better than 40% of nothing. Then there are the payroll taxes etc. to consider, plus the ancillary and service jobs created.
People I know in Ireland are not under any illusions that these big foreign companies would not decamp to lower wage cost countries if the Corp tax rate was increased. They are not there for the Guinness.
Where do all those American Corporations go? Otherwise, the tax repatriations would be devastating. Isle of Man?
In the end all these bailouts might turn out to be excuses to unhinge the advantages some of these debtor countries cobbled together to attract development and investment that was ultimate intended to ... pay back their debts. Unwinding this "way out" is a way of raping them back into a more comfortable (for someone) stone age existence and dependency. Neo-colonialism of the banking kind:
"Pay back your debts? Oh I don't think so, you see that was a one-way deal. And while you are down there, lick my boot. Do you have any daughters?"
So, here's how it plays out:
1- Irish debt stays
2- capable Irish leave Ireland in search of opportunity taking their earning power and tax revenues with them.
3- corporations leave in search of tax advantage, Financials bank to 1950's banking (1/10th the economic impact of the hey days).
4- Ireland is sooooo fucked
5- BUT they can't default either...they are a massive importer of everything (oil, food, etc.) and will be destroyed in a new weak Irish currency. No buying power and standard of living dives.
Have true pity for the Irish citizens but then get over it quickly because it's coming our way sooner than later.
Hambone, you are a mook.
Here's how YOU play out.
1. Make absurd comments like you know WTF is happening.
2. Get junked by me, your overlord.
3. Do not pass go.
4. Do not collect $200.
5. Go directly to jail where a guy named Gomer is waiting to greet you (hint: he wears no pants).
I got junked!!! I got junked!!! I'm somebody. That's like ZH validation.
Actually, I can understand if you don't like me, not sure I like me either.
Rehn forcing Ireland corporate tax was inevitable and it is logical that Germany and France stand behind this attack. Germany has been facing corporate exodus to Ireland, Austria et. al. for some time now, and they are not going to write any further checks without a level playing field. This EU bailout will result in a periphery that is put at disadvantage to the German center. Who ever said "Deutschland Ueber Alles" went out in 1945?
Well, someone's gotta hit the stop button on the music, might as well be Ireland!
"During leaders’ questions Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny described the scheme as a “bad deal for Ireland” and said the future of the Irish people and the future of sovereignty had been decided upon behind closed doors."
Only if they can't force Cowen to a parliamentary vote...
Beggars can't be choosers... the Eurocrats own them
Ireland should leave the Euro and return to the Irish pound - forcibly redenominating all sovereign debt in the new currency at a much lower exchange rate ... supranational debt in EUR should be repudiated
Irish banks should be put into bankruptcy with only retail depositors reimbursed up to the guarantee amount and secured creditors given their security... everyone else should by invited to apply to the administrator for eventual consideration of their claim
Bank branches and the payments system should be taken over by a new national bank based on narrow banking... fractional reserve banking should be banned going forward
The choice globally is ZIRP or mass bankruptcy... in Europe it is the same... the ECB can print trillions of EUR without limit to cover all the holes... or there can be mass bankruptcy ... so far they have chosen the latter which hangs the unfortunate Irish people... but soon I think they will have to opt for the former option...
a new deluge of printed money to add to the Fed's sterling efforts....
This could be THE policy error
No. 2 ranked IBD Top 100 screamer getting shanked.
Mr Market claims IGTE has overeached, in buying up larger sized, but willing to do the deal 'outsourcing' company..
perhaps the target, just wants to go cash..
suspect this stock will rebound fast...therefore
I have to admit I did not think the Irish would roll over so easy.
DIRT - its whats for dinner!
Debt = Slavery
Man these guy's aren't wasting any time eh?
And I'm sure the Irish public's reactions are being studied very carefully.
A little bit of arson, some head-banging they will put up with.
Usually they turn the screw slowly.
As the roman's would say, this is NVTS!
Also, Ireland, known as a fighting folk. If they give up easy, and they will (life in credit, FDI fast lane is like being on speed and heroine and opium all at the same time, I see it here in India, everyone is on the run, running, to some "deal" or the other, everyone is an agent, the souk mentality), the rest of europe and for sure good old Umerika will be taken without a fight, in the midst of the night, if I may, say.... watch it happen faster now, like a motormouth rapper, just warming up...
Crazy to watch it unfold, because it's coming here too. I was just discussing with a new hire today how the tension on the streets of Bangalore is so thick as the city is sped up in a crazy, chaotic, corrupt, in-efficient infrastructure/technology/western culture boom.
Sick jokes do not usually leave one feeling good.
The fighting Irish did I hear?
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/collateral-damage/
Let them eat cake. I mean look how well that turned out for the Royal family in France.
Lower minimum wage, that'll sure turn the above tide.
Last but not least....take from the pension fund...which happens to be the ONLY funds of the bail out so far, confiscated and put to good use down a black hole's gravity well. You got that right, so far, the only ones to pay for the bailout, are the pensioners'. We all heard that they took it, but how many knew that was the only money 'realized' in the bailout so far??? Sad huh. Even the money printers are too lazy to print in lieu of raiding some pensions. Remember, how Ireland is treated, so will you be, if you consider yourself lucky.
Not that I agree with low taxes as they have been, but a sovereign entity has the RIGHT to determine what threshold of taxes they require or whatnot. This is illegitimate. It's also what people warned with Lisbon/Maastricht sieg heil treaties. You gave up defacto control, that is illegitimate, but will be tried to be forced upon you as legitimate and supersceeding any others' control.
This supersceeding bullshit is not only telling you that you need to pay for all this bogus shit, they're telling you how to pay for it through austerity and tax hikes, but first your pension funds.
At least Bernanke hid with slight of hand the robbing of funds from our pensions, such as the style used to destroy (soon) Chicago Teacher's Trust Fund.
Both are just as illegitimate, paid to service fraud, that still hasn't fixed anything. Glass-Steagall.
I know what the Irish should do. They should tell the Queen of England and her fascist Inter-Alpha Group controlled ECB and clowns that they'll pay them in full, when they are promptly presented the equivalent of a mortgage note claim in pure Irish fashion, a Four leaf clover growing out of a unicorn's ass. (or arse). When you present THAT, then they'll pay.
Now if only someone could draw up a four leaf clover growing out of unicorn's ass, now that would be funny and fitting.
Well, that's what they get for actually having a pension fund. </sarc>
Thanks to the US Congress, the IMF can't steal a dime from the SS trust, because there isn't one in it!
+1MM
Irish People to Olli Rehn: Fuck You Asshole!!!
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. DEFAULT!!!
Default...And then what?
Whoever takes them into default had better explain the pain they are about to feel as a nation of massive importers of everything (food, energy, etc.) with a new currency not worth a shite. Probably best long term but they are totally unprepared for the collapse in standard of living a default will create.
Poor Irish citizens are gonna get raped either way, it's just a matter selecting how hard, how long, (and likely in which orophi).
We lucky American citizens have selected the happy option of attempting to difer our rape to our children via raising the debt ceiling and spending til they won't accept our dollars any more.
Since I have no kids, the govt. can rape yours twice, OK?
I walk. Free.
LOL
-Default and then what-
Well, take a look at Iceland for example, who told the banksters to go fuck themselves, defaulted, and are doing pretty good since then!
Sheep dog,
do you think Iceland's situation is representative for Ireland? Seems they are small enough to bail and getting a de facto bailout from Scandanavian homeland? I also thought they were fairly energy self sufficient?
Again, agree Ireland should default but just trying to think it through...seems the exercise will be helpful to better understand our ultimate default?
Bad short-run pain. But they are screwed either way, the difference is that default primarily impacts current living Irish folks, while bailouts, pension raids, indebtedness, higher taxes, these condemn future generations to pay for the mistakes of yesterday.
What if one of these countries defaults, drops the Euro, goes back to their own currency and backs it by gold or silver?
Ireland imports most of its energy resources, but most of it is British with some Norweigian oil and Colombian/Australian coal.
They would be OK if they can negotiate with the dirty Brits for oil/gas and keep them coal boats coming over the Western Sea....
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/energy_policy/doc/factsheets/mix/mix_ie_en.pdf
The Irish do have a veto option, default. F*ck the banksters.
Olli Rehn should be first on the IRA list. Send a fucking message to the fat fucks.
Nothing says "back off!" like a public killing...
Surprised I have not gotten more flac. You see, when everyone was fat, dumb and piling on debt, the IRA was no longer relevant. But for several hundred years prior they certainly were. So.............
so right you are.....
The Irish parliament has not agreed the bail out details so if they have any courage, even a smidgen, they will throw it out.
They should be out on the streets to force the politicians from ceding sovereignty.
I want to hear more from Nigel Farage.
He sussed this all out quite clearly, saying the Irish and the EU member states are all losing their national sovereignty and democracy to the EU political class.
More Cowbells! More Nigel Farage!
I don't think Commissioner Rehn is likely to be involved here. And the European Parliament can't impose this, so it's empty posturing unless and until the ECB or some member state governments pick up on it. Various countries would like to take a pop at the 12.5% rate, but it's a bit too early to go worsening the freshly-agreed EFSF deal for Ireland just yet. Trichet, who just wants to get paid, has apparently come out and given the 25%ers a public cat-scratch.
But speaking of the ECB, some tales out of school are emerging:
He mentions corp. tax pressure as well (though I presume not from the ECB). Note that Ahern is trying to justify himself here, having been sent out to do a Baghdad Bob while the ECB "pre-talks" were ongoing.
What's become of the Dork from Cork??? He knows when the butter's soured over there.
just blow it the fuck up already
BTW Byron Wien mentioned that the Spanish RE crises is not comparable to Ireland, because many foreigners had bought RE in Spain.
He is right...kind of ... the Spanish banks are now foreclosing the properties of their foreign clients ... in Britain and Germany ...
In that case you can put Ireland on the list too.
FYI,
Corporate tax = immoral robbery of others' earned property
Government bonds = immoral contracts enslaving helpless third parties (e.g. those who are alive and don't want to be enslaved; also, those who are not yet born)
Bank/corporate bailouts = using stolen or counterfeit money to prop up engines of wealth destruction, to prevent the factors of production from being distributed to more capable entrepeneurs, to undermine capitalism by preventing failure, and to hamper the market by vetoing consumers' choices about which firms most efficaciously remove their felt uneasiness. In the case of fractional reserve banks, one is also bailing out either a gambling or bailment fraud operation that's logically guaranteed to collapse.
Corporate tax should be reduced to zero. Bonds should be defaulted on. Firms should be left to sink or swim.
>Default...And then what?
That's an easy question. Step out of the way and let freely acting entrepeneurs, guided by the profit motive, compete to satisfy the consumers' demands.
Also, let each person use whatever currency they choose - Euros, lumps of gold, or seashells. Market participants will quickly settle on a most marketable commodity, a.k.a. money. If given a choice, I suspect they will quickly eject the doomed fiat media from the sphere of commerce.
I Say to You Irish Again:
Pitch forks & Torches on Sale NOW at Walmart!!
Rifles & Ammo in the Sporting Good section at ONE TIME ONLY Holiday Discount Prices...
Hurry! Act NOW!
While prices and supplies last...
Boooyah! BofA. After Wikileaks is done with you, I'd like to find a loss prevention specialist so I can personally shove my mortgage up his/her ass.
Paper cutz, bitchez!
"Default...And then what?
Whoever takes them into default had better explain the pain they are about to feel as a nation of massive importers of everything (food, energy, etc.) with a new currency not worth a shite. Probably best long term but they are totally unprepared for the collapse in standard of living a default will create."
Hambone,
Food importation not as big an issue as you think. Irish farmers actually are in the crazy situation of often getting paid to STOP producing food at the mo. Ireland has a lot of really good farmland, a thriving dairy and beef industry, exports a fair bit of food, and could be largely self sufficient in a number of essential foodstuffs if needs be. If we got our goddamn fishing rights back from the EU, we'd be even better off that way.
Living standards, were we to default, would not be as bad as you think. The main thing crippling anyone I know financially at the moment, is massive mortgage repayments (another crisis coming down the line, btw). If these too were defaulted on, or massively renegotiated, people would be able to weather better the inflation resulting from a default.
If we defaulted we could slash corpo tax, drop income taxes, stop the travel tax, and reap the rewards as corporations flocked here, paid us in our new devalued Irish punt, and tourists flooded the place because of our low, low prices.
Default for us is an EXCELLENT option. Paying this debt is physically impossible.
BC,
good to hear. I think about the ramifications of defaulting as a bit of a rebutal of the global economy and a move towards national / localized living. I think those indebted importers (US, Ireland, etc.) who yet have natural resources can make this move. Default and restructure accross the board seems the right thing for real recovery and it's only the interim devaluation period (1yr or could be 20yrs???) to reorganize and move ahead.
I hope Ireland is the test case but I just don't want the people to turn on those who took them into default when it turns out badly (default is likely better but than debt slavery but citizens will only know the results of the path they take). If not prepared, the situation could spiral and the hoped for reorganization wouldn't take root and instead you could get brain drains, capital outflows, and civil unrest!?!
I just think it's all about a shared vision and the strength to see it through.
"I think about the ramifications of defaulting as a bit of a rebutal of the global economy and a move towards national / localized living."
It is impossible to "rebut" the global economy. You can say that, as an indivdual, you prefer not to trade with other people. In other words, you subjectively prefer xenophobia and/or self-sufficiency over reaping the rich benefits of Ricardo's Law of Comparative Advantage. This is entirely your choice.
Defaulting merely rebuts the ability of bondholders to contractually bind third-party individuals into slavery.
When every country is playing "Beggar thy neighbor", then it's time to pop a cap in the neighbor's ass and build some fences.
What about a U2 "Ireland Aid" world tour for the next 20 years?
A few important points:
1) Watch the upcoming Irish election. The majority of people in Ireland are very very very angry. They will vote for a government which offers default.
The current model of private profit (looting), socialized losses (more looting) is NOT acceptable to them. Especially since the screwing of the Irish is no longer to protect Irish banks; it is very clear that it is to protect European banks.
2) This tax move is not only aimed at the Irish. The British government just announced a 10% tax rate for products developed and produced in the UK.
The fuse is lit. Now step back and enjoy the fireworks.
I think we should all be hoping for a FAST and complete break-up of the Euro. Otherwise things will get nasty.
I think you will see the Eurozone retreat to a few core states built around Germany. The periphery cannot function in the same economic straightjacket - they need devaluation and growth.
Without a fast break-up. there isn't going to be an easy way out. The Euro hardcore will push for the tools of fiscal unification (because their real goal is political unification). There will be pressure on countries not to opt out of the Euro and devalue and to accept the same debt slavery that just got forced on Ireland. Which may result in revolutions. Greece and Portugal are both candidates for this - Ireland too if their new (after the elections) goverment ignores the mandate it has been given - or allows itself to be bullied into submission by Europe. (I don't know what that does to my family property in Portugal - maybe my future retirement just got a lot cheaper). I have no idea how that will play out for the EU as a whole. Do they send in "peacekeepers" to support the original pro-EU government? Or do they let the revolutionary government secede from the Union?
As for the Euro core - The unification program is pushing towards a bureaucrat controlled super state; not a democracy. My Grandparents fought a war against this. Heil to the Fourth Reich.
And I'm not sure we won't have another European war if EU bureaucrats continue to try and keep a lid on everything. I'd still put it as a low probability - 10%. But last year I would have put it at 0%. A lot will depend on what happens in the next rounds of mudslinging and blaming.
They want the tax rate 25% so they can take business away from Ireland, pure and simple. Also if they think this will be bad, they haven't seen anything yet, wait until the country of 5 million and change people have to sacrifice pensions and go under severe austerity. We may see IRA going after the bankers thats for sure.