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Open Thread: This Reader Is Not Making Any Payments On Just Under $100,000 Of Credit Card Bills, Are You?
From the mailbag:
Brief update on my lenders' attempts to collect credit card debt. Stopped making all payments over a year ago.
BANK OF AMERICA $35,000
CHASE BANK $16,000
CITIBANK $30,000
DISCOVER $10,000Chase Bank has been singularly aggressive, in January filing civil suit represented by Zwicker & Assoc. As to the others, collection company mailings and phone calls have mostly ended, leaving the impression that they are following the Chase case. Not at all surprising, but hopefully informative. Perhaps time for another solicitation of related anecdotes?
Update from the reader:
I failed to indicate that this accumulated over 8 years of underemployment, failed business ventures and living expenses. No vacations, no big toys. Clothes are full of holes. Basically a professional trying to sustain temporarily, based upon excellent credit history and 0% offers, a standard of living that I expected to be able to fully afford again and intended to pay down the debt. Never imagined conditions would not turn around but get so much worse. I can understand the angry posts but this is not a case of deadbeat self-indulgence at others expense.
So, dear readers, which is it? Are you all dutifully filing taxes, paying off your bills, sending in your monthly mortgage checks and prefunding Goldman's now-quarterly bonus payments? Or have you maxed out your last remaining credit card to buy Kindles (that's a given) and bars of silver? Let us know.
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Open a P.O. Box and have all of your Statements and mail there. The P.O. Box needs to be outside the County where your Home is located. That way it will be difficult for them to locate you for Personal Service and if they get a Judgement in the County where your P.O. Box is located it will be outside the Jurisdiction of your Home. That way the Judgement will not go against your Home.
Sadly, I have no debt other than some 10 year old medical bills long since written off. If I could, I would default so fast their head wouldn't have time to spin. Fuck supporting these thieves.
My sig on another forum:
"We no longer have a republic, we now have a kakistocracy.
It's justifiably immoral to try to deal in a moral fashion with an immoral entity."
My 2 cents...
The banks lie. Words do not match actions. Why would anyone continue to participate in a rigged game?!? Rigged by whom, I care not - I am simply done. I quit.
My vote of no confidence may not be heard, yet it will not fade. I will not have any CC's, I will not "bank", and I will use FRN only as a medium for barter. I will avoid the game in every way I can, and at every opportunity will try to turn the system against itself.
Will this inconvenience me and mine? Of course. And it is worth the effort. I do not wish the current system on my children, or theirs, and on down the line. There is no "reform" of a system this broken, this totally corrupt. There must be change, and I am willing to put my efforts where my beliefs are.
Non-participation is the first effort. Other efforts are more in the style of our site leader, Mr. Durden...
These comments are telling and do not bode well for the future. Granted, I am making an assumption here based on the slang, tenor, format/composition, etc. of the individual comments, but it appears obvious to me that the above 40-45 year old crowd still believes in personal responsibility and fullfilling a personal obligation whereas the younger crowd believes it okay to reneg, default, etc, primarily because the "system is screwed" and "the man" is crooked.
Shame on you.
You should have avoided the debt in the first place. Those of you that have student loans...you received an education in return...pay your debt.
The original poster, who is a self-professed miser and only got into debt via starting a business and running into lean times...welcome to the world of entrepreneurship...pay your debt.
You can try to justify your actions all you want, but that doesn't make your actions right or moral. Nobody forced you into debt, nobody burdened you with debt without an offsetting gain (education, business opportunity, vacation, car) on your part. If you do not fullfill your end of the bargain/promise, you are a deadbeat. I don't care how you try to spin it to make you feel better about yourself.
It's a sad precursor on our future that my opinion is in the vast minority. The days of a deal on a handshake are long gone.
I'm 43.
My grandfather was born in 1910, when a dollar was still "as good as gold" and no one but the very rich bought anything they didn't need to survive, and everything that was made was made to last. In that world, the loan of a dollar was a taking of something real, and what was owed back was similarly real.
By the time I was in junior high, Nixon had closed the gold window and the game of pure fiat had begun. In this game, inflation is not a question of IF but of HOW MUCH -- and the goal is to run fast enough to increase one's own pile of $FRN faster than the government can make them worthless. In this world the premise of any ACTUAL debt obligation is laughable -- nothing but debt is loaned, and nothing but more debt is paid back. We are through the looking glass, and no mistake.
Your morality seems a bit one-sided.
I shook hands with a liar and a thief, without knowing them as such. Being told my entire life that they were not so, but the only avenue of "modern" interaction.
Shall I continue my participation in a game I now know to be rigged? On a moral stance?!?! At the detriment to self and family?!?!?!
I am done with the game, after having personally been gamed. You may choose to continue playing, but I am out - for good.
I think you should learn about fractional reserve banking and realize the value of your sweat.
lol just follow uncle sam's lead and spend like a drunken sailor in bangkok. the debt is now unpayable, default is the only option. should be fun when that happens.
debt free here but tempted to max out the card buying metals. just tell visa to shove it and goad the collectors into breaking the law when they call; sue and profit. this guy is leading the charge so to speak:
http://www.dallasobserver.com/2010-01-21/news/better-off-deadbeat-craig-...
btw the income tax was never properly ratified so it's illegal. see page 23:
http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/Documents/CarolinaJudge16th.pdf
I find things like this amusing. I suspect that there are some people that lived relatively conservatively and were screwed by loss of job etc.. and now are in bad shape, but I think they are probably the minority.
I think the majority ran up large debts which were going to be insurmountable no matter what happened. All of the events that transpired in recent years surely didn't help but just accelerated the inevitable. Now they default and they claim it's not their fault. Whatever.
AND I bet many of the same people that are defaulting currently rail against our government's profligate spending and path towards the point of no return. The irony.
Tyler, how about taking this post (and similar ones) off the board. I mean, JEEZ !!! This guy and others are looking for aliens under the bed.
How to run up $100,000 in credit card debt:
Marry a husband who "can't take the responsibility" after you've had two children and will turn into a deadbeat dad, leaving you behind in a state where you know no one.
Raise two childrenm working two jobs, with no help and the bonus of having to pay for medical, dental, day care, food, clothing, babysitters, and housing while earning dogshit at both jobs.
Increase stress by having dickhead boss who thinks that two minutes on the clock are more important than anything you have going on, even if that is trying to get two kids to the doctors while worrying about keeping job and how many days you won't eat in order to pay for doctor.
Have great stress lead to debilitating illness at time you can least afford it, leading to multiple more trips to doctors and deeper debt.
Live with debilitating illness and doctor's bills even while having child need oral surgery and to have tonsils removed, while other child goes to hospital for a fall and cut chin.
Have air conditioner unit and regrigerator compressor go out at the same time the roof starts to leak.
Have. . . well . . . you get the picture, right? We weren't all taking vacations and buying big screen tv's. Sometimes life just gets in the way of what we want and deserve. But that's all over for the time being and life is good now - for the moment.
Having those experiences taught me one thing, though. Everything in this country is geared against failure of any kind. Failure is a concept reserved for only the rich or powerful, as our government shows us every day.
+1
Been on both sides of this one. Had retail contracts due to me of 200k and got stuck for about half. I have also defaulted rarely when times got rough. Contracts stipulate penalties and remedies, nothing more or less. If you intentionally run up debts and default you are a fraud. If you declare BK and regroup you are a true Capitalist and I love you.
I missed an open thread? The one night I do not check in! Well, is it weird to show up to the party the morning after? Maybe a morning revival? May I be the only one combing the thread today? Well, I got a bottle of wild turkey (metaphor, for now), a blunt, and a guitar. Party on ZH!
I have never had a credit card. I never plan on having one. I have maxed out my stash of cash on PMs. I have enough cash for 3 months of what I will consider frugal living. I have never lived beyond my means. I have a stash of food that will last me extremely comfortably for 1-2 months, depending on how hungry I am. Fuck Federal taxes. I happily pay my State, county, and city taxes. Not that they know what they are doing, but that I think that the State, county, and city should collect taxes. Once again, not that they have any idea what to do with them. I figure, through this next decade, either the cities and such figure out how to appropriate the taxes correctly, or the cities shrivel and die. Gold is money, so is silver, paper is not, and peak oil is VERY REAL!
THE DOELARR: A LEGACY UNMATCHED
"The final bubble will be gold. The gold bubble will be the last hurrah." -George Soros
The doelarr's history is unmatched. Never before has a worthless FIAT IOU had such great acceptance. The scale is massive; the world was leveraged at maximum. So it went, day by day, the world turned. The birds sang a morning tune, and the rivers flowed on. Suffering was still prominent, as it is always present in nature, but at the forefront of the mind was extrinsic behavior, and due to complacency, many people held the said behavior over intrinsic instinct. Even though this logic is false, it being accepted inspired thoughts of grandeur, and this ushers in the new toy, with the same value. ZERO.
However, in the financial world, things were different. Dams were busting, and diseases spred. Interesting it was all going according to plan. Bank lending will fall to the medium sized banks, this after the Majors fall into submissiveness to Congress et al. Congress will force lending in the face of the currentsea. So they steer towards volatile seas. See you fools later.
The voyagers will attempt to leave this shore with head wimds, even though the seas are calm. They may have the seasons time, but their sense of direction is not the only other failure. They wish to travel to unforgiving lands. Their work is horrible. Let them go.
After they leave we will have one more bonfire party tonight; play the music, and love in the night! Do not worry, we are to bring the instruments, to play in celebration when we arrive. Of course we practice along the journey too, we stay sharp bypractice. For iron work, as well as jewelry. We do work with metals.
"When your shining, some chumps will want to dull ya." -Guru
The illustrious history of gold and silver is unrivaled. Kings, Queens, and thieves have launched wars simply over the precious metals. Gold and silver were the reasons to seize the Treasuries of Rome by Constantine, the metals were swiped by the Nazis during their terror (only to end up....where?), Yamasheetas gold through the 19th century-only to be had by Scull and Bones banksters, and the Armored trucks below the Word Trade Center on 9.11.01.
Blobflation Casino has taken over; not only the stock market, but the minds and hearts of its players. Some are killing the poker tables, others are losing at the roulette table. All around there are winners and losers, as there always has been. The stakes are higher now though, and when great fortunes are made, great fortunes are lost.
The stock market is forced to go big or go home. Bold moves must be played. GE will tell us that their profits must be not only legitimate but real (Mark to Cocaine is a hellavu drug). Breathing in the season is hard to do when time is busily spent at ill gotten work, yet it is all there is.
So the earth had come alive again! For no sake of the big animals; we will hibernate. Complaints still heard and registered. If it is registered, will it then be sold as a positive for the economy, these higher stock prices? If the volatility subsides for now, will America work at spending their re-funds like good little children? Tell me, 'how much is a one ounce silver coin worth?' Twenty dollars. How many do you want?
Nickolaz Sarkozy is no good guy, merely a pimp of a higher order. The beast has two heads and spew lies from both mouths. State and banking, separation non withstanding. At dinner on April 16th he fortified his authority. "Fuck you, Goldman Sachs. I am your daddy, and I am going to get some too! And if this volcano erupts further, and we can not buy any crap from Asia, do not worry, we will still buy gold."
There is an impressive thing happening here. Because of Hekla, the Icelandic volcano, there might be a little air blown into the doelarr for the next month. The effects:
First, the doelarr "strength" to continue tightening the trading range of Euro/USD. The move to $1.30 will happen quick, in the next week or two. DXY to trade roughly at 81.5. Gold and silver will continue to make nominal highs against the Euro, as well as push back up to the nominal highs for the doelarr. Then there will be a move down to $1.25 Euro USD with the DXY staying in the 81.5 range. By late May, the pressure from the doelarr will have peaked, as the State budgets of Amererica will once again be addressed. California, will legalizing pot combine with personal investment by Walled Street in Hollywood save your ship?
Hollywood Bulletin!! Hollywood goes public! The Future is Now! "I'm buying." James Cramer said, plain faced to "Cramerica", his made up realm of market serfs. Also flaunting the new Hollywood Futures Exchange, Christina Romer. "It is a wonderful chance for everyone to participate in the movie industry." The CEO went on after her at the press conference. "For our new 'land' of "Today Sucks" themed section of Disney World, you have the ability to make out with Megan Fox's virtual self from her straight to DVD film, "Sex, Lies, Faces". How extreme will Hollywood get? Will they be bought up by Apple? Steve Jobs picks up MGM Grand? How personal will this trading become? Will people have the ability to invest their 401ks in Cantor/Fitzgerald Xchange? What is money anyway? I digress.
Will folks in Hollywood feel regret and show concern of the decision? 1) How long will Hollywood last in the clutches of Walled Street? 2) How will this bubble work? 3) How much leverage will it create?
What the hell is BS doing?
The "currentsea bubble" is a misnomer. Any FIAT will have waves. Flooding is happen stance in Europe and America; it was formally a way of life. Mother earth changes. Still geographically true, and by the grace of technology, in the said States, flooding is a quelled thing. So far the above States have enjoyed economic escape from flooding as well; they have had sure currentseas. This status was achieved seemingly due to superiority of grace, and wits.
How much does a militia cost? Army, Navy, Air Force, CIA, FBI, IRS, ATF, FEMA, ETC.
This is weight on the scale on the side of the doelarr. The dollar was supposed to hold weight in the first place. This is a mighty load.
THE DOELARR: A LEGACY UNMATCHED 4.21.10
For those thinking of stopping all payments to CC companies, there are alternatives.
Keep track of all your spending on a spreadsheet (rent/mortgage, utilities, food, transportation, health, clothing, medical, gym, etc, etc). Segregate credit card debt payments into a separate category. Determine what amount is needed monthly for basic living expenses. If you don't have enough money to pay the CCs, be sure to submit even a token amount each month to the CC company along with a letter explaining that you are encountering financial difficulties. They will scream and howl and demand the minimum payment, but they will never return a check even if it is for a very small amount). If the CC company or collection agency files a lawsuit, your financial records may protect you as as the courts allow the debtor to retain monies for living expenses. Also, making even minimal payments may be viewed favorably by the courts as a sign of good faith. I have heard of situations in which the debtor did all this and the judges ruling was basically something like: 'ok, I see you owe $90K but your living expenses are $20k per year and your income is only $22 k per year, so you must pay the CC company $50 per month. The This is not, of course, what the cc company hoped for, but tough cookies.
Also, if a debtor is brought to court, he/she should not roll over. I knew a person who asked to see the original signed cc agreement. The collection agency was not able to find it. The judge eventually ruled against the cc agency and so the debtor owed absolutely nothing after that.
Another strategy I have heard about, and one which is rarely discussed, is that some debtors go on the offensive and find a reason (and believe me there could be any number of reasons) to sue the creditor or collection agency. (There's a book or two about this out there.) Rather than fight it out in court, which would be very expensive to the collection agency/cc company, they decide to settle, which can result not only in wiping out debt, but in an agreement in which the creditor agrees to stop reporting negative information to the credit reporting agencies.
You guys are coming down way too hard on cards. I've been able to use them to put away about 50K in physical with them over the last ten years. Needless to say, I love my cards! OK, fine, I'll pay them back with my soon to be hyper-inflated dollars. Don't ya' just love honesty.
Debt free and feeling like a fool Need to consider leveraging up and buy some gold before the Regime triggers the jubilee.
Oh wait, I'm one of the evil rich, so I will simply get lined up against the wall and shot along with all the other middle class fools who realised too late that the criminal elite and their willing minions feeding on their crumbs are aligned against those of us who still work for their living.
The debt is unsecured. The banks were making a calculated bet - that they could rape this guy on interest and fees. They bet wrong. Chase is not going to take anyone to court: it costs too damn much; the courts are likely to be sympathetic to the poor sap out of a job; and said poor sap can always file bankruptcy. So if a lawyer calls you threatening to sue over some CC debts, tell 'em you got your bankruptcy papers ready to file at any time, and to go for it. Be glad to run up some Chase attorny fees.
No doubt there are people who have credit card debt as a result of a terrible life event such as illness, death in the family, event over which they had no control etc. I am empathetic to their plight. At the same time, many have enormous debt because they made bad decisions, lived beyond their means, deluded themselves to believe the good times will roll on forever, did not plan for the worst case scenarios in life but spent like there is no tomorrow, mixed up their self worth with the magnitude of their possessions, had to have the latest and greatest gadget whether they could afford it or not and have no problem blaming the system for their problems. Those people need to pay their bills. I agree the bankers are banksters, but people also need to be accountable in their spending habits. I know people who say they cannot afford health insurance yet they take 2 ski vacations every year, just remodeled their kitchen and drive a new SUV. If and when they experience an unplanned event, such as an illness, and the medical bills have to be paid with a credit card because these people's priorities were upside down (health insurance vs. ski trips) just who is at fault here? Every day I see people who are making very stupid decisions with their money and yet complain about not having any. Obne acquaintance who's roof is falling apart and who says she doesn't have the money to fix it, just announced a trip to Hawaii. She is an interior designer and hasn't had any work for months. My Grandfather who lost everything in the dust bowl and depression in North Dakota (I have the pubic auction notice and the results of the sale and we complain?) came out to Oregon with little or nothing and became a dairy farmer on a shoe string. You want hard work, there you have it. On every mirror and picture hanging in the farm house he wrote with my Grandmother's lip stick the word "THINK". We need to be thinking about what we are doing, not hoping for the best and NOT planning for the worst.
"House is Paid". What if you don't pay your property taxes? What value will that house in the suburbs be worth if the water doesn't flow in the pipes, the sewer plugs up, the electricity stays off, the NG doesn't flow, the garbage doesn't get collected? If and when any one of these infrastructure stoppages occurs permanently, the whole "American Dream" box becomes of negligible value. It may not even be burnable for fuel since fireplaces have quit being included in the floorplans. I guess the point is, there will still need to be some form of currency before, during and after the "reset" to coax the 8 out of 10 that are still treating sewage, picking up garbage, climbing power poles and stuff to keep doing whatever they're doing. Personally, I like the idea of the "specie circular" but realize this reset could get real ugly real fast if the msm actually did what the 4th estate should have and should be doing. For now, how 'bout a little more MLB? (Perhaps the Israelites had something when they used to spend a week or two every year in tents/booths. Practicing?)
I am a former pit trader turned process server. It's not glamorous work, but it generates steady income while I'm getting some other ventures off the ground. 99% of my work is foreclosure notices and summons for credit card suits.
The other credit card companies aren't waiting to see how the Chase case turns out, they're just a little behind the curve. Expect to get served on the rest of them, probably sooner than later. I have many "repeat customers," that is, people I've served multiple times.