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Osama bin Laden's Last Will

Tyler Durden's picture




 

In the name of Allah the merciful the forgiver,

[This is the] Will of a poor man to his god in the highest, Osama bin Mohammad bin Ladin,

Thanks be to Allah, and peace and prayers over the messenger of
Allah, his family and all his companions. We implore his justice and
guidance and call on him for assistance from our evil and ill deeds. He
whom Allah guides, none can lead astray and he whom Allah leads astray,
has no guide. And I testify that there is no god be he alone, ascribe no
partners to him and I testify that Mohammad is his slave and messenger.
We beg him in the highest to accept us in martyrdom along with the
righteous of his worshipers and to perish us as Muslims.

Allah had commanded us that in case death approached to leave a will
for both parents, relatives and all Muslims […] and whatever saddens
them, saddens me and Allah attests to what I am saying.

Allah attests that the love for Jihad and death in the cause of Allah
has taken over my life and the Sword Verses have penetrated every cell
of my heart, “and kill all the polytheists [infidels] as they fight all
of you”. And how many times I wake from my sleep and find myself
reciting this holy verse. If every Muslim would ask himself why did our
Ummah reach to where she is [in a state of] humiliation and defeat, his
instinctual response would be, because she has clung to the pleasures of
life and tossed the book of Allah [Koran] behind its back and it is the
only source that has the cure and success in the here and now and the
hereafter. The Jews and Christians have tempted us with the pleasures of
life and its cheap delights and they invaded us with their monitory
values before invading us with their armies. And we were, like women,
did not react, because the love for death in the cause of Allah has
departed the hearts.

My spirit and the spirits of my Jihadi brothers have been pained when
we saw that our Ummah, from East to West, was watching America parcel
out the worst of pain over the weak ones, from men, women and children,
and the Ummah watches the bloody sight as one who watches a movie for
entertainment. The worst of afflictions that besiege our Ummah is the
fear of death in the cause of Allah. The [Koranic] verse has been
reversed and we saw the cowardly Crusaders [Christians] and the lowly
Jews become steadfast in their fighting with us and the soldiers of our
Ummah raise the white flag and surrender to their enemies. Even the
students of the religion [i.e Taliban = students of Islam] but a small
minority stayed in the fight, while the rest surrendered or escaped
before confronting the enemy. Today, the Ummah sat on our victory and
the victory of the students of religion [Taliban] who established the
first Islamic sharia’h compliant nation in Afghanistan. And it is
sufficient to show America’s hatred for the Taliban and their
fundamental laws. It is through allying with its agents in the Northern
Alliance and other nations, who have enlisted their soldiers and
intelligence agencies in the service of America, Brittan and the infidel
West. The fundamental laws that were established by the Taliban
[Students of Islam] were abolished, so she [America] abolished the veil
[Hijab], beard growing and she returned the habits of emulating the
blasphemers [infidels]. The Muslim scholars that guide the Ummah upon
the evil path and our affliction today are those the scholars of the
Ummah that have disavowed their message of guiding the Ummah, their
misguidance has reached a degree that a Muslim would not believe. They
[infidels] came to Afghanistan to prevent its [Muslim] scholars from
destroying the pagan Buddhist [statues], however the venerated Taliban
scholars repelled them and disparaged them. And the excuse of a Sheik
and his companions was necessary to appease the Jews and Christians and
their general opinion and they forgot Allah’s verse, “The Jews and the
Christians will not be pleased with you until you follow their faith”.

These Muslim scholars betrayed their message in the service of the
Ummah and its causes and allied themselves with its enemies and rejected
its Jihadist path that dealt America its first historic defeat, it
shall with Allah’s permission, be like the Mota raid that the messenger
of Allah led and resulted in the extermination of their nation.

The third [in a series] of escalating attacks that America received,
stopped New York and Washington, the first of which was the exploding of
the Marines [barracks] in Lebanon and the second was exploding
America’s embassy in Nairobi, from which the invasion of Somalia was
launched; where 32 thousand of our brothers were killed under the banner
of the UN. Despite the disaster that Allah afflicted us with, this
region will lead to the extermination of America and the infidel West
even after tens of years.

So, youths of the Ummah: guard death, and life shall be granted to
you and listen to the few Muslim scholars who cling to
jurisprudence/good judgment, segregate themselves away from the
unbelievers and are faithful, animus towards those who are allied with
the enemies of the Ummah who took humanity’s basal mindset, habits and
perversions of the Jahiliah [time of ignorance aka pre-Islamic era] such
as borrowing from banks that charge interest and disciplinary [secular]
laws, relations and secular insurance and the permission of
establishing political parties, and women organizations and humanitarian
committees all of which are rejected “innovations” by [several] groups
of Salafi scholars.

Oh Muslim scholars: today, you are a small minority. I know you by
name and I read your articles and Fatwas [religious edicts]; however, I
do not want to mention you by name so that I would not provide the
enemies of Allah a list which they will search for and harm you during
these stressful days upon us.

Oh women: beware becoming arrogant and emulating the debauchery of
the West and its masculine women. Be schools for graduating men and
Jihadists in the cause of Allah and guard your honor and there will be
for you good recompense in the mothers of the believers.

Oh wives: may Allah grant you good tidings on my behalf. You were to
me after Allah righteous backers and a specific blessing from day one.
You knew that the road was planted with thorns and landmines. You left
the blessings of your parents and chose to be by my side in modest
living. You were ascetic with me, so, become more ascetic after me. And
do not think of marrying in order to better care after our children and
sacrifice and pray for them.

As for you may children: forgive me for
not giving you but little of my time since I answered the call of
Jihad. I carried the burden of the Muslims and the burden of their
causes. I chose a path that is rife with dangers and I took unto myself
the burden of toil, difficulties, treachery, betrayal and if it were not
for betrayal, our condition today would have the best and likewise for
wealth. I will you to obey Allah. That is the most precious commodity in
life. I will you not to work in Al Qaida or the [Jihadist] front, just
as our master Omar Bin Al Khatab [second Caliph] willed his son
Abdullah, may Allah be pleased with them both. [Omar] forbade his son
from succeeding him as caliph, “be it a good omen or not, Omar shall not
benefit from it”.

My final advice is to all the Mujahideen where ever they maybe:
reconstitute yourselves and do not forget until fight the Jews and the
Christians and attend to purifying your ranks of the agents, lazy and
scholars of evil who collaborate against the Jihad and hold the Ummah
back.

Your brother, Abu Adbullah Osama bin Mohammad bin Ladin

Friday, 12/14/2001

As sourced by Al Anbaa via Michael Yon

 

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Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:01 | 1251337 Alcoholic Nativ...
Alcoholic Native American's picture

Allahu Akbar

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:01 | 1251341 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

Ah, sherpa sherpa. 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:05 | 1251347 Sophist Economicus
Sophist Economicus's picture

Ahla yaba dabba do

Hope you're rotting in Hell, Bin-Asshole.   If not in hell, at least you're rotting!

Hee Hee

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:24 | 1251369 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Bin Laden was an idiot, no doubt.  His first mistake was that he failed to read the Koran with diligence.  Nowhere, and I will repeat, nowhere in the Koran does it refer to "jihad" as anything but a war with the self.  Jihad is a personal struggle, and concerns no one else besides the individual.  Anyone who thinks otherwise has failed to read the book properly, or has not read it at all.  Those who followed Bin Laden were deceived into thinking the son of a family heavily invested in the perpetration of Islam knew what he was talking about when it came to religion and spirituality.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:53 | 1251469 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

No, Osama's first mistake was not realizing that the CIA would double-cross him just like they did Sadam and are doing to a  host of totalitarian puppets in MENA as we speak. 

 

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramrirez

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:59 | 1252831 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Two-way street, that.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 17:56 | 1251568 Léonard
Léonard's picture

Nowhere, and I will repeat, nowhere in the Koran does it refer to "jihad" as anything but a war with the self.

WRONG. There are many sourates incentive to violence and war against non muslims like Sourate 8, 39 ; Sourate 8, 59-60 ; Sourate 47, 4 ; etc. Mahomet himself was one of the biggest criminal in History. He killed thousand of men, women and children.

The Koran says "Jihad with the heart, the tongue, the hand and the sworn". The Jihad of the tongue is war with lies (lying is not a sin in Islam). The Jihad with the hand and the sworn is war with physical violence against non muslims.

So if Osama was a real jihadist, he just did what his prophete and his holy book told him to do. People really need to educate themselves about Islam and its history cause this stuff has nothing to do with a religion of "peace and tolerance".

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 18:34 | 1251651 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

None of the passages you list contains the word jihad nor do they promote violence.  I am not here to discuss the acts of men but the words of the Koran.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:12 | 1251800 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I'm not going to your stupid ass site again, I already read that jibberish once.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:12 | 1251803 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

you cant refute any of it - direct quotes from the quran; facts and stats about killing

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:19 | 1251817 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Jihad is war with self, that is the definition of jihad. 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:53 | 1251882 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Maybe you should enlighten the Muslims in the Philipines, Thailand, India, Pakistan, India etc..

They don't agree with you. Afghanistan used to be a Buddhist country until those who refused to convert to Islam were slaughtered. 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:12 | 1251923 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

No man can help another become enlightened.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:20 | 1252328 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Obviously

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 11:25 | 1252865 ibjamming
ibjamming's picture

You're a deluded idiot.  At the referenced "www.thereligionofpeace.com" did you notice about halfway down the page...the list of terrorist acts over the last 3 months?  Quite a list isn't it...  Have you ever BEEN to a ME country?  They're SERIOUSLY fucked up...and NOT a place I'd want to call "home", nor stay any longer than necessary.  They DO want the world to be Muslim...just as the Christians wanted the world Christian.  Please don't speak of that you don't REALLY know.  Propaganda is everywhere!

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:30 | 1252996 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Not discussing the people, discussing the book.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:07 | 1252307 Rastadamus
Rastadamus's picture

WHAT you say is true Mr. Hendrix and anyone following Mr Bin Laden is going against the teaching. But let's look at the Christians, a more bloodthirsty lot you would never want to meet, excvept many of them don't beleive in the actual teaching of Jesus, just the fact that they are forgiven.

MANY OF THE PEOPLE RIDICULING U ARE JUST IGNORANT AS F%$K

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 11:20 | 1252856 snowball777
snowball777's picture

"...cant refute any of it - direct quotes from the quran"

Was Jehu perpetrating jihad against the worshipers of Baal? Seems like your God condoned it:

The LORD said to Jehu, “Because you have done well in executing what is right in My eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in My heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

Seems like there's a causal relationship between religious belief and a predisposition to violence.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/images/religion_peaceful.gif

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:54 | 1251888 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Who cares?  Christians blew up the towers.  Why aren't we discussing Christianity or its pedophiles?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:52 | 1251884 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

It's especially relevant since those who operate alCIAda are Christians!

How much violence is there in the Christian bible?  Does that explain why they blew up the towers?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:12 | 1251640 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

You say not true and then give a site that is as accurate quoting the Koran as Bin Laden is.  Fail.  Next time give me a wiki page so I can wipe my ass with it.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:21 | 1251714 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

you are a deceiver

the quran preaches killing of Christians and Jews in multiple places and your spin is false

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:43 | 1251754 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I'm your huckleberry....

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:29 | 1251731 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:38 | 1251739 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

It is about killing one's own ego, not other people.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:27 | 1251969 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Perhaps you can at least admit that some of the poorly educated amongst Islam's billion plus followers might be slightly confused by the allegorical meanings you seem spot so easily?  Then there are some intelligent and highly educated Moslems, ObL amongst them, who justified their killing based on their interpretation of the Koran, coupled---in my opinion---with the fact they were raised in a society where the practice of any faith other than Islam is considered so vile that even today it is punishable by death, public beheading style.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:28 | 1251975 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Or pay the jizyah.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:34 | 1251993 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

That would be such a trite discussion.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:51 | 1252152 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Trite?  Yes, in the heart of the Koran Belt---Saudi Arabia---the law still exists on the books that the practice of any religion other than Islam is muharram.  No churches, no Bibles, Torah's, Teachings of Buddha are allowed.  Not even private services are allowed, though many are held illegally.  Punishment for violation is death by public beheading. 

In the late 1990's two Filipino men were sentenced to death, scheduled to be carried out---ironically or sadistically---on Christmas Day.  Their "crime" was to hold a private Christian service in their homes for ex-pat Pinoys and Pinays.  There were "caught" by the Mutawwa, the Committee for the Preservation of Virtue and the Elimination of Vice.

Only intervention by the USG prevented their public beheading, and instead had them deported for their "crimes".

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:28 | 1252240 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Killing in the name of.....

If you must have blood, bathe in the blood of the infidels...Soldiers of Hell, become soldiers of the living God!

-Pope Urban II

Told you this would be trite.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:46 | 1252270 chindit13
chindit13's picture

This is about Islam and the writings that leave more than a little room for interpretation, particularly when viewed in light of the manner in which Mohammed led his post-enlightenment life.

As for Christianity, or specifically Catholicism, I don't need no Pope Urban when the Borgia family is evidence enough.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:09 | 1252298 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

You are picking and choosing your narratives.  Once again, the words of the Koran have nothing to do with the acts of men.  You surmise that because people do not understand the words, and act in an evil manner, then the words are to blame.  This premise is flawed.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:10 | 1252309 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Perhaps it is you who does not understand the words. If you understand them so well, you should enlighten the Saudis

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:20 | 1252327 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

 

 

Man can not enlighten others, only the self can attain it.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:24 | 1252335 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

But of course. Those imams, ayatollahs, and holy men are wrong in their interpretation of the Quran. Non-Muslims like you have the correct interpretation. You said so yourself.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 11:00 | 1252833 Vagabond
Vagabond's picture

You religious folk are just too much for me.  We need morality, not "The word of God", or the word of Muhammed or anyone else.  Man-made mass religion is a disaster in just about every form.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 11:27 | 1252866 snowball777
snowball777's picture

But thinking for yourself and establishing a moral code by anything but rote mimicry is so hard.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:16 | 1252318 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

 

 

Response to Chindit; edited from above....

You are picking and choosing your narratives.  Once again, the words of the Koran have nothing to do with the acts of men.  You surmise that because people do not understand the words of the Koran, and act in an evil manner that is not justified by the Koran, then the words of the Koran are to blame.  This premise is flawed.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:44 | 1252378 chindit13
chindit13's picture

We’ll disagree here. I’ve always been interested in the genesis of the various religions, from Judaism through to Mormonism. Each is a product of its times, obviously, and subject to the frailties of the human mind, plus, obviously the needs of the human psyche.

The suras of the Koran were finally penned long after Mohammed had departed. The hadiths came later. All were via word of mouth, which is obviously dependent on really good memories. The stories of his life contained in the hadiths are not disputed in the whole by any Islamic scholars. Minor interpretational differences, yes, but on balnce they are taken as a factual representation of Mohammed’s life and exploits after his enlightenment. Those tales show a lot of violence, so it is quite reasonable to suspect that the authors--or reporters---of the suras believed the violence in the actual verbiage is not allegorical (I read Arabic, by the way, so can read it in the original form). Certainly that is how some in Islam have chosen to interpret them, though by no means all Moslems.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 07:35 | 1252624 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

How trite.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 09:38 | 1252740 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Bad response. You did not defend your position. The suras and hadiths reflect the violence Mohammed perpetrated on those who refused his “message”. The words some now worship are a product of the times in which they were written. An ignorant, albeit seemingly charismatic man, developed a following. Long long after the fact, people who find comfort in any message, and who have a need for religion, try to interpret the message the authors of the suras and hadiths penned as something peaceful, when it is not. It is violent, because that is how Mohammed dealt with people who would not accept his message.  Fortunately, time and evolution have obviated some of humanity’s more base tendencies, and some can pretend they know what Mohammed “really” meant.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:36 | 1253023 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

You were discussing your qualities; perhaps I should've responded with 'How quaint.'
The Koran is thought to be the word of god. What he did with his life after told the word of god is irrelevant. Your argument would not stand in court, so what makes you think it is acceptable here.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:12 | 1252313 Rastadamus
Rastadamus's picture

What is the excuse of the poorly educated Christians that don't know how to turn the other cheek, or cannot see that they aren't forgiven, but invited to pick up a cross and suffer like their so called master. Nope! They'd rather believe their forgiven and drop hendreds of 2000 pound JDAM bombs to kill a terrorist and a couple dozen innocent people.

 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:08 | 1252191 WeekendAtBernankes
WeekendAtBernankes's picture

You are so full of bullshit.  It might have been believable 10 years ago but no longer.  It is a well known fact that the difference between the Torah, Bible, and Quran is that the Torah and Bible are flush with parables and allegory open to personal interpretation.  The Quran is the supposed direct word of God.  It is not open to interpretation and to taken literally, a fact about which it is very specific.  You know this and yet you come on here and lie.  

Surprisingly others are willing to suck up to you, saying "Oh, you're the enlightened one, but those others."  I know a lie when I see it, and you've polluted this thread with yours.  I, for one, will not be fooled.  

How disgusting is your religion that it encourages you to come to this forum and outright lie about its principles to hide its deviant barbarism.  I hope this thread serves to show others who are as yet unaware just how vile and insidious Islam is.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:45 | 1252255 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

Jihad literally translates to "personal struggle" or rather "war with self".  When one reads the Koran with that premise, then one can see that when it says of killing, it is referring to ending the struggle with yourself.  The Koran is literally telling you to kill your demons.  As far as the Bible, that is (also) the word of god.  The Koran accepts the Bible as truth, by the way, and Jesus (and others in the Bible) as prophets.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 04:58 | 1252561 WeekendAtBernankes
WeekendAtBernankes's picture

There were 152 Islamic terror attacks last month in 19 countries with 907 dead and 1603 critically injured.  That's 84 casualties a day.  You can do your best to paint a pretty picture around that.  Fuck you man.  You're going to burn in Hell.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:08 | 1252775 Votewithabullet
Votewithabullet's picture

He wont be alone fuck job. Fucking flat earther, you all ready for the 21st? Sold all yer shit and waiting for your rapture?

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:59 | 1253089 WeekendAtBernankes
WeekendAtBernankes's picture

lol

You believe that May 21st bullshit?  And you call me a flat-earther?  Texe Marrs called, asshole, he wants his swastika back.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 11:30 | 1252872 snowball777
snowball777's picture

If they keep that up for about 15 more years straight, they can almost match our bodycount in Iraq!

 

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:59 | 1253079 WeekendAtBernankes
WeekendAtBernankes's picture

Since 2003 the US military has killed ~110,000 civilians in Iraq.  Islamic terrorists have murdered over twice that number worldwide.  Whereas we aren't singleing out civilians as targets of opportunity, they most certainly are.

Nice shot at mythmaking, though.  You've really got the HuffPo narrative down.  What flavor is the Kool-Aid this week?

Mon, 05/09/2011 - 10:49 | 1255424 LooseLee
LooseLee's picture

How true! Much like the Christians literally translate, "You cannot come to the Father but by 'me'. The 'me' is the 'self'. It is not until the 'self' is 'understood' (e.g put in its place) that the 'Father' is revealed. However, and unfortunately, the whole Christian movement is based on literal 'dogmatic translation' which contradicts what must actually happen for the 'individual' to 'perceive' Truth. Moreover, the 'sheeple' of organized religion are the same 'sheeple' following the edicts of TPTB; only they use Jesus as a scapegoat for their own brazen laziness to find the answers for themselves much like most are willing to accept the teachings of the MSM as the gospel of the economy and world events. The future is bleak due to the fear-ridden nature that is the human condition. Because humans refuse to deal with the fear that is the 'self'; they aren't capable of breaking through and realizing the "illusion' that those in control (politically, economically, religiously) are leading them down the wrong path. To get off of the 'path' requires one to "starve the beast" of each and every one of those ideaologic parameters. The action of that is 'non-action' (e.g. non participation in the status quo) is the righteous action.....

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:32 | 1251736 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

[9:14] You shall fight them, for GOD will punish them at your hands, humiliate them, grant you victory over them, and cool the chests of the believers.


Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:37 | 1251741 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

God will help you fight your demons.  It has nothing to do with others.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:51 | 1251762 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

3:151

We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:54 | 1251768 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Right, so when one is not true to self then one burns in a personal hell.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:55 | 1251772 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

2:191


002.191

Y: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where

they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than

slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first)

fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward

of those who suppress faith.


P: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places

whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And

fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first

attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such

is the reward of disbelievers.


S: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence

they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do

not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in

it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of

the unbelievers.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:05 | 1251783 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Still, it is about fighting your own demons.  Do not bring negativity into the house, the Mosque, but if you do, get rid of any impure thoughts quickly.  KILL YOUR EGO!

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:10 | 1251798 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

Tabari 9:69  "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"  The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:17 | 1251805 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

 

 

That is not from the Koran.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:23 | 1251819 jm
jm's picture

I respect your zeal, but clearly not all muslims share your interpretation.  Any ideas on if you are in the minority?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:31 | 1251840 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

 

 

 

 

Interpretation can be the limitation of perception.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:36 | 1251849 jm
jm's picture

I'm asking for a straight-up anser if you will give it.

You have a very enlightened view of things, like a sufi.  Not every muslim sees in the sufi way.

One other thing... there is so much hatred for jews by muslims.  Don't deny it.  Why is this?

 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:44 | 1251858 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your compliments.  I can not speak for why people hate.  That is their business.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:43 | 1251872 jm
jm's picture

Perhaps you should make it your business as a muslim to show some confused people a better way.

 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:54 | 1251883 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

 

 

 

 

I was not a particularly religious person, although I know of Buddhism, Shintoism, and Confucianism and am aware of their tenents. -Miyamoto Musashi, Book of Five Rings

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:58 | 1251897 jm
jm's picture

One must polish their Way and hold fast to it.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:14 | 1252315 Rastadamus
Rastadamus's picture

You de man. And I'm not Islamic but what he says is true....

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:11 | 1252316 Rastadamus
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You de man. And I'm not Islamic but what he says is true....

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:12 | 1252787 Votewithabullet
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 Hey Fucking pierre Muhammed killed those he was at war with. What did the americans due to the Natives? BUY THEM A FUCKING ICE CREME? You pussies attack Islam when your history is equally violent. Your hipprocracy has no bounds...nigger. 

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:25 | 1252980 snowball777
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"Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven."

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 11:50 | 1252910 snowball777
snowball777's picture

"We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve..."

 

"I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee."

"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 11:35 | 1252878 snowball777
snowball777's picture

"...for GOD will punish them at your hands..."

 

“Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation of the LORD which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever. The LORD will fight for you while you keep silent.”

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:27 | 1251726 PierreLegrand
PierreLegrand's picture

Buffoon...Mohammed was a violent murdering brigand and his followers are merely imitating his example. What other religion beheads folks for drawing fucking cartoons. Islam is a religion of war and we in the West are beginning to understand this and we make war better than anyone else in history. Islam's turn is coming...sit tight.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:40 | 1251746 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Your logic is flawed.  You base your premise on the acts of people who think they are following the word of the Koran when they are not. 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:33 | 1251842 curmudgery
curmudgery's picture

anyone who has spent time in the mideast quickly realizes that there are as many Islams as there are mullahs because vast swaths of the young population are illiterate, even the mullahs.  they factionalize Islam and create many Korans out of thin air and verbal tradition.  It is sad to see high-testosterone, unemployed youth being whipped into what they think is a righteous frenzy.  It is not jihad, not in the least.  There is a correct word for it, irhad, which means evil war, not holy war.  Thanks for trying to right the dialog Mr. LH.

 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:34 | 1251850 Mr Lennon Hendrix
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Well put.  Thanks to you.  And you are welcome.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:56 | 1251887 sun tzu
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Those Imams will say that you are wrong. Since when did you become the final authority on the Quran? Are you even Muslim?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:06 | 1251907 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The book is the authority itself.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:07 | 1251917 PierreLegrand
PierreLegrand's picture

The founder of your religion was a murderer which makes your argument about the book irrelevent.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:16 | 1251933 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

That is not a sound premise.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:19 | 1251941 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Could we say OBL was not a proponent of turning the other cheek?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:23 | 1251956 Mr Lennon Hendrix
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We could say.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:24 | 1251966 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Fair enough then.

I admire your moxie ;-)

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:23 | 1252339 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

So the book is the authority, not your opinion of it.

Mon, 05/09/2011 - 18:10 | 1257150 LooseLee
LooseLee's picture

There can be no authority. 'Authority' is an illusion. The absence of 'authority' can only lead to Truth...Seek to abnegate all 'authority' in matters of human behavior...

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:42 | 1251867 macholatte
macholatte's picture

So let us indulge you and your position.

Tell me, where are the 800 million peace loving muslims when they are needed to stand up and stop the psycos from distorting their religion of peace. I have to conclude that it is NOT a religion of peace but just the opposite and the 800 million are cowards.  Show me the thousands of muslims who came to ground zero and prayed for the dead. Show me the hundreds of muslim leaders who took to the air waves day in and day out to fight the hijacking of their religion of peace by the small handful of radicals.

They are not there.

You can tell a lot about a culture by simply looking at how it treats women.

You are a victim of wishful thinking as many of us are.

 

 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:54 | 1251890 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I can not explain the failure of men to understand what is just and right.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:04 | 1251909 PierreLegrand
PierreLegrand's picture

Bullshit  you will know them by their fruit. And we know Mohammed by his OWN actions...he was a brigand and murderer. You cannot escape that fact. He spread his religion by killing those he didn't agree with...quite the inspiration there. His followers who are violent are merely following his example...

I will say that many muslims are not murderers because people in general are basically good. The problem with Islam is it gives bad people a GREAT FUCKING EXCUSE TO BE REALLY FUCKING BAD. That is the evil about it. 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:21 | 1251945 Mr Lennon Hendrix
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I am not here to discuss the acts of men but the words of the Koran.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:54 | 1252035 chindit13
chindit13's picture

While I understand what you are trying to say and think your motives are good, looking at the genesis of the Koran suggests an interpretation different from yours.  Mohammed wrote nothing, and could not because he was not literate;  all the suras and hadiths were written after his death, some by people who might have had access to him, and others who had become followers of what they had heard were his views.  At that time, the stories circulating about Mohammed's activities contained a lot of descriptions of his behavior that today we would not exactly call merciful or compassionate.  It was with those actions as backdrop that the suras and hadiths were written, so one might strongly suspect that the violence suggested by the words might actually refer to violence and not inner soul searching.  Certainly they have been interpreted that way---toward the violent side---since his death.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:30 | 1252063 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The Koran was spoken by him and then memorized by him and his followers, which is why we know the text perfectly, because people had to memorize it.  It was memorized and therefore if someone tried to tell it differently, everyone knew it was false, because it had been memorized.  When people have a story memorized word for word even the slightest change is noticed.

There is no genesis of the Koran.  The Koran is the Koran and that is final.  The books you note are additional and were written by men, and are not part of the Koran, so no faith should be put into them.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:47 | 1252137 chindit13
chindit13's picture

When people have a story memorized word for word even the slightest change is noticed.

Perhaps you could moderate that ongoing dispute between the Sunnis and Shi'ites, as it seems they lost something in the translation and didn't notice, in the same way, that slightest of change.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:53 | 1252153 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

 

Their dispute is not with the Koran, it is amongst themselves.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:25 | 1252343 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

What we have here is a know-it-all, self-proclaimed expert on Islam. He learned it all and knows it all after a couple of yours of studying it.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:22 | 1252792 Votewithabullet
Votewithabullet's picture

Chinook faggot. What we have here is a man with an opinion, your the only one claiming authority.Disfuckinggusting avatar. CARTMAN: "you should just kill yourself"

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:54 | 1253070 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Homophobic tendencies? Are you aroused?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:55 | 1252039 chindit13
chindit13's picture

While I understand what you are trying to say and think your motives are good, looking at the genesis of the Koran suggests an interpretation different from yours.  Mohammed wrote nothing, and could not because he was not literate;  all the suras and hadiths were written after his death, some by people who might have had access to him, and others who had become followers of what they had heard were his views.  At that time, the stories circulating about Mohammed's activities contained a lot of descriptions of his behavior that today we would not exactly call merciful or compassionate.  It was with those actions as backdrop that the suras and hadiths were written, so one might strongly suspect that the violence suggested by the words might actually refer to violence and not inner soul searching.  Certainly they have been interpreted that way---toward the violent side---since his death.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 20:59 | 1251892 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Except that Christians run alCIAda.  The evidence for this is obvious and expensive.

Why aren't we talking about Christian brigands?  Like those slave-traders during Capitalism's heyday?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:08 | 1251913 PierreLegrand
PierreLegrand's picture

Oh my are you one of those truthers...

Remotely piloted airplanes and such??? heheh...pretty funny shit.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:18 | 1251942 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Your only source of evidence is John Ashcroft.  That tells me how serious you are.

Let me ask:  can you articulate Ashcroft's fairy tale, in song, between stanzas of "Let the Eagle Soar"?

Can you do so while jerking off Robert BCCI Mueller?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:39 | 1251995 chindit13
chindit13's picture

I'm guessing you are a very unhappy young man.

The polite answer to your 911, "alCIAda" views is that other people have weighed the evidence and come to an entirely different conclusion.  It does not mean that those who disagree with you are "sheeple";  it does mean that they have weighed all the evidence and come to a different conclusion.  Also, some people have knowledge far beyond what you have, and far beyond the knowledge of the people who probably convinced you of your view (oddly these people are believed even more vehemently than MSM and USG, even though they have no special access, begging the question:  Who's the real sheeple?).

The impolite answer is that their is a divergence in society now where the two flocks, the moonbats and the rational types, are flying in opposite directions, never to cross paths again.

The only thing left to say---and it is something the truthers say without admitting it---is that I know the real truth, and you are deluded.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:03 | 1252043 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Your only source of evidence is John Ashcroft.  

That's the "other people" that you mean in your servile appeal to authority.

Why are you so fucking arrogant?  I mean, how much sleuthing does it really take to deep-throat everything shoved in your face by a mildly-retarded Christian fundamentalist/Blackwater employee.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:18 | 1252076 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I have to admit...calling someone arrogant and then doing a psych evaluation across the net, on someone you never met, is an impressive use of your analytical skill set that we value highly here at ZH ;-)

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:24 | 1252093 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

From where did the official fairy tale come?  

Questioning the chain of evidence has nothing to do with psychology.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:35 | 1252116 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Who is mildly retarded?...and yes, I will need real evidence.

And Alex Jones/Storm Front/Democratic Underground/Wikipedia/Al Jazeera et al doesn't count.

Thanks in advance.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:44 | 1252132 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

???

It's your side (along with your compatriot John Ashcroft among others) that has used the alCIAda idiocy to launch a Jihad on Central Asia.

Without proving a damn thing, your sides has killed a couple million people.  I think that puts the burden on you, not me.

What's so convincing about John Ashcroft that he makes you believe buildings can spontaneously combust?

Why did physics stop working on 911?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:03 | 1252182 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Who is mildly retarded?...its a simple question.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:42 | 1252269 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

---

 

Your cognitive faculty improves through content analysis.  Try again:

"how much sleuthing does it really take to deep-throat everything shoved in your face by a mildly-retarded Christian fundamentalist/Blackwater employee."

Of all people, 'nmewn', you should know who oversaw the production of all all evidence from the 911 Operation.  Who was the AG at the time?  

YOUR MAN!!

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:51 | 1252275 nmewn
nmewn's picture

And your evidence of mild retardation is...?

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 08:33 | 1252670 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

---

---

---

---

nmewn

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:23 | 1252794 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Funny...all this time I was thinking it was you ;-)

You never had any evidence of your assertion and still don't.

Not exactly helping your conspiracy cause there bud...not that your babbling nonsense ever did.

Trapped like a rat...LOL.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:57 | 1252825 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

--

--

--

--

--

You're seeing things that aren't there, my man.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:11 | 1252195 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Why did physics stop working on 911?

Galileo, is that you?  You've been looking at the truther sites?  You noticed debris falling faster than the buildings in "freefall"?  I guess lots of things have changed since you dropped those two balls from the tower.  Gravity is now approximate, has a fudge factor, and picks and chooses what masses it is going to hurry along.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:38 | 1252250 nmewn
nmewn's picture

But there was puffs of smoke & stuff coming out the windows as it compressed downward!...and and and steel won't "melt" (man that was a good one)...and and and...air to ground cell phone technology wouldn't work in those days, it was a computer talking to people on the ground acting like it was passengers (who were or weren't there depending on the variant of the story)...and and and and Mossad suicide pilots, no, auto piloted, yeah that's it...and and and...fucking nano explosives planted precisely where amateur pilots flew the lumbering passenger jetsin, right there, best damn pilots in the world or unbelievably lucky...LOL.

Its incredible...it really is.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:47 | 1252277 Rick64
Rick64's picture

 While I don't adhere to all these theories you state, there's that small problem of WTC7.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:04 | 1252299 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So you, yourself, are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Atta & Co. flew planes into the twin towers or not?

And that Todd Beamer & Co. were fighting for their lives as they died?

Yes or no.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:22 | 1252332 Rick64
Rick64's picture

I lean towards yes on both questions, beyond any doubt no.

 

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:32 | 1252357 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, thanks for an unequivocable maybe ;-)

If you can't get to what is known, WT7 will never be known in your mind will it?

Its late here, I'll check back in the morning...always enjoy it Rick, though we rarely see eye to eye.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 02:08 | 1252448 Rick64
Rick64's picture

 Lol, your welcome. How can we know for sure unless we have irrefutable proof. I do believe that terrorists were on the planes and they flew into the world trade centers. I don't believe they collapsed like they did without some kind of assistance, but we can go back and forth on this because both sides can be argued. The best argument for them falling because of the Airliners would be the amount of time it takes to prepare a building for demolition. Also the fires could have burned hotter than normal because of the wind sort of acting like a blast furnace IMO. Haven't heard that from anybody yet. What troubles me the most is the way it freefell into a pyle of rubble, I would think that it would collapse in stages with large pieces still somewhat intact. Then you have pools of hot molten metal in the rubble 4-6 weeks after it has fallen.

OTH we have accounts from Scott Forbes Senior Data Base administrator for Fiduciary Trust that said there was an unprecedented power down for the weekend preceding 9/11. The reason was new internet cables were being installed. So there's guys walking around with spools of cables without any security cameras. Verified by William Rodriguez building maintenance .

  Then there's Marvin Bush that was employed by Secure Com until 2000 during which time they recieved a contract to install a new security system. Wirt D. Walker III a cousin of the bush brothers was the CEO of Secure Com until 2002.  Also bomb sniffing dogs were removed as well as security alert lifted 5 days prior to 9/11. Many strange activities going on in the towers 4-6 weeks before 9/11.  

  Then there is Able Danger. Lt. Col. Anthony Schaffer, Navy Capt. Scott Phillpot, James D. Smith all saying that they had identified Atta as well as another terrorist. Schaffer tried to alert the FBI, but was blocked by Military lawyers. Then all the files were either deleted or destroyed by Major Eric Kleinsmith on orders of military counsel Tony Gentry.

  Sibel Edmonds and Dr. David Graham went through the same kind of ordeal. I view these people as having integrity and the actions against them as an obstruction of justice.

 Will I ever be 100% sure either way, probably not. I think its kind of like the JFK conspiracy, you weigh all the evidence and you make a decision. I do try to keep an open mind to other logical explanations. I enjoy hearing your views as well as Chindit's on the things we disagree on because I do want to hear the other side and weigh it against what I believe. Hope you got a good nights sleep. Cheers

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 08:04 | 1252644 chindit13
chindit13's picture

The collapse can be argued both with physics and materials engineering, as can the after burning.  I don't think anyone argues that the steel melted.  I do think people argue that steel expands and loses a good deal of its structural integrity at temperatures caused by burning Jet A and office furnishings.  The break point in both towers was the point of aircraft contact, which represented anywhere from twenty to thrity stories of WTC tower.  After that the weight causes each floor to collapse underneath.  A few engineers have done the math and proven that the rate of collapse observed was well within the expected rates. (Plus it was less than freefall;  gravity is not approximate, so anything beyond the rate expected by Newtonian physics negates the freefall argument.)

The "work" that went in to lifted tens of thousands of tons of steel and construction materials, plus office furnishings, all came together in the collapsed pile.  That is a heck of a lot of kinetic energy, and it doesn't just disappear.  It burns.

WTC7 was built over a ConEdison substation.  Lots of stored fuel.  The building was evacuated early on in the day, because it was on fire.  Some of the few remaining crews---those not killed and those not working on the two towers, tried to put out the fire, but were eventually "pulled" out.  That building had a very curious architecture, with a large internal atrium and a large penthouse.  As the fire burned, the steel beams expanded and lost strength, and were no longer able to support the structure.

The supposed reason for the "controlled demolition" of WTC7 always puzzled me.  Supposedly it had something to do with copies of certain documents, as if photocopiers and thumb drives or RW CD's did not exist in 2001.  Also, during Watergate, when Nixon's operatives wanted to get some documents, they just burgled the office.  Destroying the entire building would be such overkill.  Frankly, it makes no sense.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 17:44 | 1253823 Rick64
Rick64's picture

Supposedly it had something to do with copies of certain documents,

 I don't buy that as the reason either. Thanks for the reply. I am going to research more about freefall speed vs the speed it fell at. I do notice in the videos that the buildings (WTC1&2) seems to be somewhat intact above the point of impact when it starts to collapse, and the collapse starts at or near the point of impact.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:09 | 1252781 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Very refreshed, thanks.

"Then you have pools of hot molten metal in the rubble 4-6 weeks after it has fallen."

I hadn't heard that one. The fire wasn't hot enough to melt the steel but it was more than hot enough to soften already damaged steel...the structure being obviously, visibly damaged, by the transfer of kinetic energy from the plane to it.

"So there's guys walking around with spools of cables without any security cameras."

Well, det cord doesn't look anything like CAT5 and even if it were disguised, I wouldn't want to be pulling, stretching or have it snag going through walls & ceilings. And again, the buildings started collapsing precisely where the planes hit. With the level of flying expertise the hijackers had, there is simply no way they could hit right where they knew explosives had been pre-planted. The second plane is the best visual example of all, it can be seen banking hard just trying to hit the building itself...let alone hit the proper floor(s), it hit on the corner almost missing it entirely.

"Then there is Able Danger. Lt. Col. Anthony Schaffer, Navy Capt. Scott Phillpot, James D. Smith all saying that they had identified Atta as well as another terrorist. Schaffer tried to alert the FBI, but was blocked by Military lawyers. Then all the files were either deleted or destroyed by Major Eric Kleinsmith on orders of military counsel Tony Gentry."

I assume this to be what is termed as Gorelicks Wall. We, as American citizens, with good reason, do not want a central federal government snooping around in our personal affairs. Over time case law and regulation was built up to limit or prevent the CIA, FBI, the military from sharing information they might have on an individual.

Which I think is a good thing for >>>American citizens<<<.

Where this failed is these were not American citizens. They were foreign nationals here on visa. Who did not fulfill their requirementsfor being allowed to be or stay here...they disappeared into the population and emerged behind the controls of hijacked aircraft. This in my view is the scandal being covered up. INS did not follow up or issue alerts to apprehend them.

A better conspiracy theory would be the entire 911 Truther movement was started as a psy-op to cover up government incompetence ;-)

"Will I ever be 100% sure either way, probably not. I think its kind of like the JFK conspiracy, you weigh all the evidence and you make a decision. I do try to keep an open mind to other logical explanations. I enjoy hearing your views as well as Chindit's on the things we disagree on because I do want to hear the other side and weigh it against what I believe."

I try and take the evidence as it comes and does it fit with what I knew to be true before it came to me. If it doesn't fit or is at variance with the previous, one or both has to be removed or modified to get the complete picture.

I don't want this to devolve into JFK but...I remain unconvinced that LHO did it. Marksmen at the same skill level or better, have tried & failed to replicate it, with the same type rifle (Caranco) & scope, at the same distance, in the same time alloted between shots, on a moving target. And Ruby was not some starry eyed patriot, he had no rational reason to kill LHO and seem's completely apolitical by all accounts. Meaning, I think it was the mafia. Whether they acted alone or were contracted out by others is open to debate as JFK and his brother had a lot of enemies...but I don't think it was Johnson...LOL.

What pisses me off is to see people like Chindit disparaged. He and they have more boots on the ground knowledge of customs & practices of different cultures in their nail clippings than most people who post here will ever gain in their entire lives.

Take care.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 18:33 | 1253936 Rick64
Rick64's picture

  This is a video debunking the claim but they admit that there were pools of molten metal. They state it was probably aluminum not steel.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YXzjAKJQOg

 I assume this to be what is termed as Gorelicks Wall.

Why would they destroy all files related to it, rather than just deny them access. They didn't want to share their intel, then after it came out in 2005 that they had this intel and failed to act on it they had to cover their asses. This would be a feasible explanation except for the fact that Capt.Kleinsmith destroyed it in May and June 2000 well before the attacks.

 What pisses me off is to see people like Chindit disparaged.

 I agree. Well its a nice day today and I am going to go take advantage of it. Take care.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 20:56 | 1254245 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yes, aluminum has a lower melting point (obviously) than steel. I have no idea why aluminum would be "molten" in the pile unless it was still at 660 degrees at its core...the pile did smolder for some time.

"This would be a feasible explanation except for the fact that Capt.Kleinsmith destroyed it in May and June 2000 well before the attacks."

Well, you got me there. I have no idea.

We do know that a higher level official (Sandy Berger) was also, apparently, on a "cleaning mission" and got caught stuffing classified documents into his pants, so there is no telling what the Clinton administration was trying to clean up prior to his second term running out. And the subject of those documents have never been made public to my knowledge.

I'm not saying what Berger got caught doing has anything to do with a 911 conspiracy...I'm only pointing out that bad policy or kleptomania or malfeasance will be covered up if someone inside thinks it will be revealed later or is damaging now...they are human...its instinct, self preservation.

We still have OBL's own words and noteworthy is this;

"(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah,..."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

KSM and OBL claimed responsibility. We got Atta's baggage whole, which included the names of the others. We got his boarding papers. We got him on film in the terminal proceeding to board. The hijackers (the others) made video last wills & testaments saying what they were about to do. We had people calling the ground saying what was happening to them in real time when they did it. They tried it with a truck bomb before that.

Whatever the CIA or whoever is (for the conspiratorial), they are not stupid enough to go after the same target twice and risk exposure I would think.

That's enough for most cognizant fair minded people. 

Mon, 05/09/2011 - 11:14 | 1254416 Rick64
Rick64's picture

We still have OBL's own words and noteworthy is this;These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah,..."

 With the exception of the fanatical religious rhetoric he has some valid points within the speech.

 

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:30 | 1252354 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Interesting that the video that started it all, Loose Change, is now in its fiftieth or so re-write, as all the pieces of those 17-year olds (back then) arguments are laid bare as nonsense.  I suppose they should be complimented for their willingness to accept their own failings.  I believe the next version will be limited to something like, "it was a warm and sunny Sptember morning".

No argument there.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:53 | 1252282 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

 

 

You write a lot of words, but really don't say anything.  I suppose that's your role.   So I'll ask again:

Who demolished the towers?

And how in the hell did it come to be that a couple of the patsies were rooming with an FBI snitch?

http://tinyurl.com/z38e

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:59 | 1252180 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Why are you so fucking angry?  Why do you accept without question the rantings of Internet Gurus who pull "facts" out of their asses?  As for arrogance, you speak with absolute certainty, which might well qualify as arrogance.  You also make assumptions in your  arrogant attempt to disparage.  One must wonder what inner demons prompt you project such venom, whether it is toward those who do not accept the fantasies of the Internet Gurus, or who do not attibute every malady facing the human species to White Capitalists and Illuminati. 

You have an opinion, nothing more.  Your opinion is based on what you read, and your own examination of the facts, using whatever intellect you have and whatever educational background you have, all spread on top of your underlying belief system and preconceived notions.  Some of us have gone through the same process and come out on the other side.  Some of us also have real life experience that we also use to reach our conclusions.

You have no monopoly on truth.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:33 | 1252241 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

My opinion isn't based principally on the testimony of a religious fanatic like John Ashcroft.  That is true.

And yours is.  

That's what we know.  

Now tell me about alCIAda and how those wacky Muslims pulled it off.  Convince me.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 00:02 | 1252293 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Don't know John...Ashcroft, that is. No, my opinion is based on a host of things including a physics and math background, some firsthand experience with al Qaeda (do you not have Spellcheck on your computer?), and generally good chemical activity within my cranium.

I also have this quirk, or character flaw perhaps, that prevents me from blindly accepting the rantings of the Internet Guru's, who have access to nothing other than there own vivid imaginations, and whose chemical activity within their craniums is, sad to say, highly suspect.

I sometimes wonder if the internet wasn't best left to porn, as on balance I think it is a lot less harmful than Moonbat Theology.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 07:49 | 1252628 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Your 'guru' is John Ashcroft.  Only he can produce evidence that you trust.  You weren't in the planes or on the scene.  You believe what's 'official' - what gets put into evidence by John Ashcroft's Justice Department - because told you to believe it.  

I don't need the internet to tell me that buildings don't just spontaneously combust.  Perhaps you should rethink citing physics and math as the reason you do.

On what scientific grounds do you believe that billions of pounds of steel and concrete pulverize themselves into ash and perfectly symmetrical beams?

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 08:24 | 1252658 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Perhaps you've been away, but there are a host of people besides Ashcroft (in my view a lunatic) who have detailed the events and causes of 911.  Also, in case you missed it, there was no spontaneous combustion;  two airliners full of Jet A got things going.  Office furnishings and furniture added to it.  Get a materials engineer to explain the loss of structural integrity of steel that happens at temperatures at which Jet A burns.

WTC7 was evacuated early in the day because it was on fire from debris hitting it from the initial strikes and from the towers' collapse.  Sadly, so many NYCFD workers were already dead, and many others were working on the Towers, so there were not enough people to put out WTC7's fires.  (My wife was on the phone with friends in WTC7 and they told her that they were evacuating because of fire.)

Watch the films again.  Get a stopwatch.  Look where the collapses began---exactly where the aircraft struck.  Note some debris is falling faster than the buildings.  That rules out "freefall".  Learn about kinetic energy, and understand why the floors could pancake, and then fires could burn in the rubble for weeks.

As I noted in another post, Galileo would not have needed Ashcroft or anyone else to state that this was not freefall.  But ignorance has created quite the industry.

By the way, were you on any of the planes?  I didn't think so.  As for al Qaeda, scroll down to find my offer under another of your comments.  I'm not kidding.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 08:41 | 1252674 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

-

 

How the hell do file cabinets and elevators cause buildings to spontaneously combust?  Give me a break.

All the 'evidence' you cite above came from a man you call a 'lunatic', yet here you are parroting the whole "the towers fell because a rug caught on fire" yarn.  Sad, really:  hopefully you're paid to do so ... 

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 09:45 | 1252747 chindit13
chindit13's picture

What spontaneous combustion?  Towers I and II were struck by jets full of Jet A.  WTC7 was struck from debris both from the airliners and the collapsing buildings, and were on fire from early morning.  Best you ask someone who was in WTC7 when they evacuated and why.  Also best to stay away from the moonbat sites.  Their asses are sore from all the bullshit they pulled from them.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 11:05 | 1252835 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

.

.

.

Anal raping Newton's corpse, I see.

Only a lunatic would say that three buildings would pulverize themselves symmetrically because a plane hit TWO of them.  

And that's understandable, given a 'lunatic' provided you with this silly 'evidence'.

Mon, 05/09/2011 - 18:22 | 1257189 LooseLee
LooseLee's picture

As long as the 'I' is acting; there can be no 'Truth'...

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 23:17 | 1252210 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Don't toy with me, Pierre!  Don't get my hopes up that there's another rational person around here.

Sun, 05/08/2011 - 14:35 | 1253327 PierreLegrand
PierreLegrand's picture

hehe...well let's not get carried away with this rational shit. The world is a lot crazier than I gave it credit for a mere 12 years ago. I am hoping that it doesn't continue to get crazy...or I may find myself believing that Islam is peaceful and the planes were remotely piloted.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:39 | 1252126 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

Don't forget this was said 1379 years ago.

Prophet Muhammad's Last Sermon
Date delivered: 632 A.C., 9th day of Dhul al Hijjah, 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat.

    After praising, and thanking God, he said:

"O People, listen well to my words, for I do not know whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

    O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Treat others justly so that no one would be unjust to you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (riba), therefore all riba obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital , however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer inequity. God has judged that there shall be no riba and that all the riba due to `Abbas ibn `Abd al Muttalib shall henceforth be waived.

    Every right arising out of homicide in pre-Islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that I waive is that arising from the murder of Rabi`ah ibn al Harith ibn `Abd al Muttalib.

    O Men, the Unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calendar in order to make permissible that which God forbade, and to forbid that which God has made permissible. With God the months are twelve in number. Four of them are sacred, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Sha`ban. Beware of the devil, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

    O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste...

    O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God (The One Creator of the Universe), perform your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your financial obligation (zakah) of your wealth. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

    All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

    Remember, one day you will appear before God (The Creator) and you will answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

    O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.

    All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people.

    *The Qur'an: Revealed to Prophet Muhammad during the period from 610-632 AC. The first five verses revealed are: (1) Read in the name of your Lord, Who created. (2) Created man out of a clot that clings (in the womb). (3) Read and your Lord is the Most Bountiful. (4) Who taught by the pen. (5) Taught man that which he knew not.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:31 | 1251378 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

He's not rotting! As we speak those fish have already turned him into crap! NeXT time you go to McDonald's, thinking About this: You could be eating à fish That ate his skinny ass!

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:36 | 1251407 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Is that kosher?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:45 | 1251433 doggings
doggings's picture

i dont think "fish" from McDonalds come from the sea.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 16:48 | 1251451 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Yes it Does!

The sea of E17! And where else would all THE natrium come from?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 17:37 | 1251549 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

If tuna is the chicken of the sea, is chicken the tuna of the land?

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 18:17 | 1251616 Texas Gunslinger
Texas Gunslinger's picture

i dont think "fish" from McDonalds come from the sea.

Agreed.

I've never seen a perfectly square fish.

 

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 22:07 | 1252058 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Those are fish that come from old Soviet Bloc(k) states, like near Chernobyl.

Sat, 05/07/2011 - 21:01 | 1251898 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

I'm not worried about that because OBL died years ago and is rotting in the desert or mountains where his followers buried him. He's been the non-existent boogeyman for the past 10 years to justify the imperialist police state. Everyone forgot about him so they decided to kill him off like they kill off a character on a TV show. They'll replace him with another boogeyman to keep the show going.

Lights, camera, action!

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