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Paul Farrell's 7 Reasons Why America Needs A "Good Depression" Now...Or Face A Great Depression Later

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Another must read from one of the "less cheerful" people on MarketWatch.

1: Capitalism’s now a lethal soul sickness, needs a reawakening

What’s the real problem? Not the economy, not markets, nor even politics. Yes, our economic pains are real. But they’re just symptoms. Something’s structural wrong. Since 2000 endless bad news: Greed, deceit, stupidity, corruption, unethical behavior, lack of moral conscience.

The real problem’s deep in our character, the “mutant capitalism” Jack Bogle warned of in “The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism.” Sadly, that battle was lost. With it we lost our soul, our moral compass. America’s character is measured by our net worth.

2. We’re already in the early stages of a Great Depression

Comparing today with the Great Depression is common sport. In a Newsweek special “Seeing Shades of the 1930s,” Dan Gross wrote: “Wall Street, after two terms of a business-friendly Republican president, self-immolated on a pyre of greed, incompetence and excessive optimism.” Today’s “new normal” economy means high unemployment for years, inflation driving prices, rising interest rates, more debt, chaos.

We are destroying ourselves from within. Former U.S. Comptroller General David Walker warns that “there are striking similarities between America’s current situation and that of another great power from the past: Rome.” Three reasons “worth remembering: declining moral values and political civility at home, an overconfident and overextended military in foreign lands, and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government.” We are becoming more vulnerable to external enemies.

3. Good Depression exposes our self-destruct bubble-thinking

Before the 2008 crash, “Irrational Exuberance” author Robert Shiller warned in the Atlantic magazine that “bubbles are primarily social phenomena. Until we understand and address the psychology that fuels them, they’re going to keep forming.” Housing inflated 85% in the decade: “Historically unprecedented … no rational basis for it.”

Bubble thinking is an toxic virus that infected everyone. Shiller warns of another coming: “We recently lived through two epidemics of excessive financial optimism … we are close to a third episode.”

4. Good Depression will stir outrage, force real reforms

Writing in the Wall Street Journal, Jim Grant, editor of the Interest Rate Observer, wrote: “Why No Outrage? Through history, outrageous financial behavior has been met with outrage. But today Wall Street’s damaging recklessness has been met with near-silence, from a too tolerant populace.” Grant worries that Wall Street will run “itself and the rest of the American financial system right over a cliff.”

But we only went to the edge in 2008. Today, a rebellious “throw the bums out” hostility is blowing a new kind of bubble: Three years ago we did not have Tea Party, union fights, the Arab Spring and Greek austerity riots, all signs of an dark angry future sweeping across America.

5. Good Depression forces Wall Street to think outside the box

In a powerful Bloomberg Markets feature, “No Easy Fix,” we’re told Wall Street’s “profit formula has hit a wall.” Their “money-making machine is broken and efforts to repair it after the biggest losses in history are likely to undermine profits.”

Even Mad Money’s Jim Cramer openly admits hedge fund managers are pocketing megaprofits at capital gains rates while laughing at the stupidity of a broken political system that gives hundreds of billions in tax breaks to the richest, then takes taxes off the table as our middle class is dying under massive unsustainable deficits. Soon angry mobs will “fix” Wall Street.

6. Good Depression will deflate America’s warring soul

The American economy is a “war economy” driven by a egomaniac. I saw it firsthand as a U.S. Marine. Americans love being king of the hill, world’s cop, the global superpower. Why else spend 54% of our tax dollars on a war machine, 47% of the world’s total military budgets.

Why? Our war machine generates such “spectacular profits that many people around the world” are convinced America’s “rich and powerful must be deliberately causing catastrophes so that they can exploit them,” warns Klein in “Shock Doctrine.” No wonder the GOP takes military spending, like tax cuts for the rich, off-the-table: The war industry is a major political donor.

7. Good Depression now … avoids a far bigger depression later

In “The Price of Liberty: Paying for America’s Wars,” Robert Hormats, undersecretary of state and a former Goldman Sachs vice chairman, traces America’s wartime financing from the Revolutionary War to present wars. He warns that today we’re “relying on faith over experience, hoping that sustained growth will erase deficits and that the ballooning costs of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid will be manageable in the coming decades without difficult reforms.”

Absent a brutal reset, we are on a historically predictable course says Kevin Phillips, Nixon strategist and author of “Wealth & Democracy:” “Most great nations, at the peak of their economic power, become arrogant and wage great world wars at great cost, wasting vast resources, taking on huge debt, and ultimately burning themselves out.” Yes, burned out, unprepared.

So pray for a Good Depression earlier rather than later. Choose now and we can be prepared for whatever comes. Or a Great Depression will hit later, when we’re least prepared, the problems bigger, our faith weaker … don’t raise the debt ceiling.

And the take home message:

Totally predictable: No Black Swans in 2000, 2008 … nor in 2012

Yes, all was predictable: The events of the past few years were well known in advance. In fact, the events of the entire decade were predictable. The rich got richer off the backs of the middle class and the poor. Why? “There’s class warfare all right,” warns Warren Buffett. “But it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

And they are also blind and deaf to the havoc their free-market Reaganomics policies are creating, selfishly undermining America, the world’s greatest economic power.

Lessons learned? Zero. Why? Wall Street, Washington and Corporate America are focused on one narrow-minded short-term strategy: Economic g-r-o-w-t-h, bull markets, megabonuses, tax cuts. In good times they tout “free markets.” But when greed bombs, they throw free-market “principles” under the Reagan Revolution bus and unleash their mercenary lobbyists to go whining to Congress for huge taxpayer bailouts and access at the Fed discount window, to siphon off more taxpayer money. And they’ll do it again soon,

Wall Street and their cronies are doing such a miserable job, America needs a new strategy: First, stop “kicking the can down the road.” Let a good old-fashioned Good Depression do the job that our hapless, happy-talking leaders refuse to do. Take our medicine. Let a new depression clean house and reawaken Americans to core values.

Trust me folks, it’s either a Good Depression now … or a Great Depression 2.

Absolutely spot on. Yet it will be completely ignored - the status quo's steamroller will not be denied: after all just think of all those insolvent entitlement and cheap, cheap credit that Joe Sixpack stands to lose if July 4th was a day of true independence from debt slavery...

 

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Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:31 | 1426994 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

Read Murray Rothbard Bitchez!

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:06 | 1427153 CH1
CH1's picture

And the harder the crash the better. I want no banksters on the rebuild!

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:28 | 1427259 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Time to give the bankster wanksters a good old south african necklacing.

Long tire manufacturers and oil!

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 18:34 | 1427976 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture

The harder the cataclysmic collapse the more "fog and chaos". Which of course means that we all take a road trip to Wall Street for a good ole' fashioned lynchin'.

Anyone got a rope and an old chair strong enough to kick out from a bankster's feet? LOL

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 21:21 | 1428320 CH1
CH1's picture

Violence may sound tough on a chat board, but it ain't so cool in real life.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:30 | 1427003 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

think you are 3 years too late with this....its too late to avoid a DEPRESSION !.....otherwise you can just write this again in another 3 years , as they keep kicking the can down the road

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:24 | 1427609 Herbert_guthrie
Herbert_guthrie's picture

I'm with you Seasmoke.
Too little too late.

Unfortunately, I belong in the "numbers don't lie" camp.

Hyperinflationary Great Depression.
Biggest fall in history.

Damn, sounds scary when I word it like that!

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 20:14 | 1428187 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

 I tend to agree.  There will be a hyperinflationary depression.  When?  Dunno.  How fast and hard?  Dunno.  But the road leads straight to that cliff and no other.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 03:32 | 1428853 oldman
oldman's picture

If this is not already a depression with 400,000 new filings weekly

Can you even imagine a 'real depression' will be like?

I can not even imagine it.

every thing about this article stinks---must've sold a lot of ham or chicken or hotdogs with this gibberish

tyler has a great sense of humor

Only place in town, baby

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:32 | 1427012 Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Grandpa Farrell needs to realize no one is trying to solve problems.  Things need to get real nasty before this one world currency can get into place.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:44 | 1427308 Thomas
Thomas's picture

It has been my premise that a Kondratiev-like third leg down is coming this way. The rot has not been purged. How one defends against the deflationary vs inflationary apocalypse is unknowable and unnerving.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:34 | 1427026 Doeko
Doeko's picture

BTFD is back Bitchez!

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:03 | 1427143 Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

The bail-out boom is causing massive malinvestments, as is properly pointed out by the Austrian School.

Case in point, Tiffany & Co.'s share price:

http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:TIF

Good one Keynes, your shit theory doesn't provide any full-employment, just messes with markets and adequately needed market corrections.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:28 | 1427255 That Peak Oil Guy
That Peak Oil Guy's picture

The economic signals that are sent at times of stress are there for a reason!  If we try to manipulate them to keep everything rosy then we get unintended consequences like malinvestment.  Crazy!

TPOG

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:45 | 1427314 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Cash_is_Trash

Duly noted. We are awash in moral hazard, like a great tsunami of it. It is wrecking all of our institutions and laying waste to our society. Picking up the pieces will be an epic task and the beginning of a new era.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:36 | 1427028 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Paul,

I appreciate the article's thrust and the info, but without busting balls.......I thought we were already in a good depression with an even deeper one just around the corner.

I guess it depends upon who you ask. Stay away from the unemployed, those on food stamps, those raiding their savings, IRAs and 401(k)s etc just to pay the bills and I guess your right.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:36 | 1427036 fuu
fuu's picture

Since about 2000 or so.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:42 | 1427064 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I totally agree with you CD. I know people on both sides of the spectrum. While they are good people, those with money turn a blind eye to what is going on around them. But when I drive to my office I see more and more faces digging out of the dumpsters looking for anything of value.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:43 | 1427072 Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

At this stage of the game it is time to bust balls!

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:01 | 1427137 Deepskyy
Deepskyy's picture

CD,

I think what Paul is terming a "good depression" here is a structured collapse.  Like a condemned building being imploded by a proper team of trained demolition experts.  You bring the whole derelict mass down on itself, clean up the rubble and rebuild something useful in its place.  I think a planned default, a return to our own form of Constitutional, congress issued currency and not the Federal Reserve note, and a major shift politically would be a "good depression."  Yea, unemployment would shoot to over 20% most likely, and it would hurt like hell for a while, but then once we clear away all the crap, we can rebuild using sound money principles and effective regulation to limit corruption and hubris.

If we don't, like many of us have said in the hallowed halls of ZH and other websites, the status quo will continue to work... until it doesn't.  A disorderly collapse would be violent, bloody, and could lead to either a complete totalitarian state to attempt to regain control of our urban areas that would burn in the even the government checks stop coming.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:09 | 1427171 CH1
CH1's picture

If they can claim anything resembling a "controlled collapse" the banksters will never go away. They must be seen as utterly discredited; the root cause of unavoidable pain.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:15 | 1427189 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Like a condemned building being imploded by a proper team of trained demolition experts.

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A

Or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvx904dAw0o

Looks like they have already started.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 19:17 | 1428058 iNull
iNull's picture

One has a right to be incredulous even if this were just your typical downtown office skyscraper. But Bldg 7 was an EOC (Emergency Operations Center). I worked on an EOC back in the 90s. Overengineering is an understatement. Overinspection is an understatement. There was a light mist that settled on some of the rebar overnight and as a result it developed a light rust (you could scrape it off with your fingernail). We had to sandblast the entire lot down to metal before installing it. These EOCs are engineered with 100% safety margins and are designed to survive anything short of a direct nuclear blast. I can tell you based on what (little) I know about the engineering and construction of commercial buildings. No fucking way did two little fires in Bldg 7 bring it down.

N.O. F.U.C.K.I.N.G. W.A.Y.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:06 | 1427156 VyseLegendaire
VyseLegendaire's picture

No, we 're currently in the 'Joyful Depression' phase. 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:35 | 1427029 fuu
fuu's picture

11 years too late author. Put down the hopium pipe and get with the program.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:36 | 1427037 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Exactly.  After the housing bubble and the past 2 years of bailout nation and accounting fraud, when this sucker goes it will leave a smoking crater.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:43 | 1427068 fuu
fuu's picture

Also 6. Good Depression will deflate America’s warring soul is total bullshit.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:54 | 1427109 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I didn't want to say anything since I'd already busted Paul's balls but............a cornered and set upon ruling hierarchy always wants war, the ultimate diversion.

Even if it requires a false flag attack to get one cooking. Especially if it requires a false flag attack to get one cooking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:00 | 1427133 fuu
fuu's picture

I think we should always use the Operation Northwoods stuff as an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 22:40 | 1428516 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Silent explosives? You should use something else as an example.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:36 | 1427038 gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

I think any reponsible leadership that would follow the policy guidance here is on hiatus until after the 2012 election.  By then it will be too late.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:41 | 1427054 The Limerick King
The Limerick King's picture

Should we choose to go through a depression?

Or print to avoid a recession?

I don't mean to be rude

But the truth is we're screwed

We'd be better off going to confession.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:57 | 1427541 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

...And then get out Smith & Wesson

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:22 | 1427601 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Shooting hollow points I'm guessin'

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:43 | 1427069 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

From what I hear from everyone I talk to they are super mad about the record high Fat Bonuses on Greedy Wall Street while the rest of the country sinks into the abyss.

Very unfair.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:18 | 1427212 CH1
CH1's picture

Yup, another deflection. Anything except allowing the legitimacy of the state to come into question.

"The state is holy and righteous. Anyone implying otherwise is an ungodly freak, a conspiracy theorist who poisons babies for fun."

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:47 | 1427084 kevinearick
kevinearick's picture

Panic

The economic motor is dead, and has been for quite some time. Now, the pony motor is dead too (illegal immigration for next generation mindless make-workers to feed the ponzi). The operators are not going to get another motor so long as the Family Law filter, which disengaged the economic gears for so long that they atrophied, remains installed.

All they know is exploitation, moving the cattle from meadow to meadow, relying upon a planet that is becoming increasingly inhospitable. All they can do is drop the relative price of oil, which has already closed all the exits, and monetize the debt directly between them, to pump the market feedback signal. How is solar, wind, and FracGas working for everyone?

The housing channel is already stuffed to overflowing, and, like the digestive system, the subsequent lack of circulation is spreading poison across the rest of the body. In this environment, the non-profits are now “learning” that they are losing the government funding necessary to control their properties, leaving them scrambling for real rent at 25% of their mortgages, due to the mirrored government overhead on both sides of the equation, subject to deleveraging, and their ignorant response is to seek real renters to carry both their mortgages and their pets.

Their bosses are planning to drop the whole spoiled population off at the family farm, and the family farmers are already shutting down operations in anticipation of the move. How long before they get rid of the homeowners tax deductions, credits, and subsidies, to clear the market, when Trump owns the front yard and the driveway, paying interest on interest on interest, at 0% effective? An intelligent community does not subsidize stupid, to hide a massive surplus of McMansions within dead governments.

“They had all benefited from the same quality education, and they shared a set of standards by which they lived, and they expected of one another adherence to these standards. Being one of the anointed elite meant belonging, meant freedom from self-doubt, meant always knowing what you thought and what you should think, meant comfort…Life can sometimes seem hopelessly complex, unpredictable, chaotic. Then a strange order makes itself known…This phase of the pattern, which benefitted him, was a wave that offered effortless surfing. Until it lost its benign character…In every complex system…just under the façade of order, which science has discovered and long thought it fully understood, lurked an eerie and disturbing chaos. But also, deep inside every chaos, an eerier kind of hidden order waited to be found.”

Behind the façade that poses for eyes to an empty soul, you see a skull cracking from the pressure in the brain. The manager becomes increasingly arbitrary, capricious, and malicious, because the box must be controlled amidst increasingly variable input and increasingly rigid output, as the bosses race for the exits. “Why” is an integral question; “because that is the way I was taught” is a derivative answer. Best to maintain your health, to keep a gap between yourself and those derivatives.

Peak government is the correct answer. What happens when the size of government contracts rapidly? All politics are local, aggregated into social behavior, with a feedback signal. What do you want to do with the energy in that slingshot, relative to the turbulence in the neutral line? If you owe the bank $X, you are in trouble; if you owe the bank $Y, the bank is in trouble. If the bank “owes” the me generation and its descendents $500 trillion NPV worth of entitlement promises, who is in trouble, and when does the buck break?

I eat breakfast with the farmers, ride a bike in the rain with boots hung over the bar, to a low wage job in an automated plant, and suddenly move away, after walking across town with my backpack. What do you do? What is each type of person in that small town thinking, if anything? Every empire maximizes productivity and then debt, with alternating feedback signals, in a recursive cycle, until it doesn’t, when all the exits are shut, and all the lies pop off the stack.

Calculate the square footage required per capita and compare it to inventory. Run a distribution for each sector and compare the result against currency carry trades. What is the economic effect of hoarding, and why does it happen?

At the cliff abutment, you are strategically pulling the looking glass back, shaving off sections of the cliff, and leaving the momentum of gravity to do the work for you. Allow Caesar to add rigid price controls. The larger the collapse, the more ingrained the lesson, the lower the overhead cost to the next system, and the bigger the battery, but you have to hit the next orbit. Critters will be critters; big is a least-common-denominator enterprise. Adjust Democracy accordingly.

So, you have a piston of pistons in the neutral line, with adjustable I/O surfaces, and a pathway for productive ignition of backlash…

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:48 | 1427517 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

Please, what is the quote in the middle? Funny, but it sounds like it might have been written by Thomas Wolfe.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 19:06 | 1428035 kevinearick
kevinearick's picture

Koontz (sp?)

Thu, 07/07/2011 - 03:57 | 1431867 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

Dean Koontz?!? No kidding. Prolific author of entertaining but trashy novels? (Or is it trashy but entertaining?) Should I be embarrassed that I compared him to America's finest author of all time? Or is one or the other over- or under-rated?

Thu, 07/07/2011 - 14:55 | 1433515 kevinearick
kevinearick's picture

randomly reading trash

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:48 | 1427090 Silver Dreamer
Silver Dreamer's picture

54% of tax revenue is spent on the military?  Wow, that's news to me.  When I read figures like that, I cannot help but immediately dismiss everything else written.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:15 | 1427202 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture

a link to cost of war on the bottom - Some other good links here too:

http://grow-guides.blogspot.com/

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:48 | 1427092 skipjack
skipjack's picture

Oh jeez, another clueless asshole who has no idea what capitalism is.  What we have isn't capitalism; it's fascism.  If you cringe at the word fascism, then substitute corporatism.  Whatever.

 

If you insist on mischaracterizing, something, then you can't possibly fix it.

 

We NEED capitalism; we don't need fascism, corporatism, socialism or communism.

 

Got it ?

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:00 | 1427135 oldmanagain
oldmanagain's picture

Don't get your definition of capitalism. Please define.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:01 | 1427140 American Sucker
American Sucker's picture

Capitalism always turns into fascism.  As does socialism.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:15 | 1427203 Tejano
Tejano's picture

Well, he seems to like the term "mutant capitalism", whatever the hell that is. Says it can be fixed through prayer, "So pray for a good depression.." Thinks "outrage" will be a good thing. 

This Granpa must be off his meds.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:23 | 1427229 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

Yeah, regulatory capture, not related at all to capitalism.  /sarc

The reality is that "capitalism" is ingrained in our very nature, and that is both the problem and the solution.  We continuously collapse on ourselves.  Immolation/phoenix cycle.  This time is never different.  There is no "fix".  The guy who said "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it" doesn't realize that being cognizant of history doesn't prevent the repitition, it just makes you that much more painfully aware but substantially less surprised when it does repeat.  The main takeaway is that at least you can minimize the damage in the "writing on the wall phase" to give you a better shot at surviving the "holy fuck the world is ending" phase.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 23:12 | 1428584 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

Oh jeez, another clueless asshole who has no idea what capitalism is.

Oh jeez, another clueless asshole who has no idea what capitalism is.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:52 | 1427102 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Sadly, the failings of the past few decades corpratism will be used as fodder against capitalism itself by communuts, fascists, anarchists and every stripe of extremist.

I am long chaos and short common sense for the next decade.

 

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:50 | 1427103 DOGGONE
DOGGONE's picture

Paul B. Farrell,

YOU should do this: Show the past soundly

Just read your column
7 Reasons the U.S. needs a Good Depression now

You/MarketWatch/FOXBusiness should show the likes of the first chart here
http://homepage.mac.com/ttsmyf/RD_RJShomes_PSav.html
to the people ONGOINGLY!  (Second chart too.)

Real price histories well-show bubbles, and well-shown is well-deterred -- this is a sure thing.  Please do it!

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:26 | 1427247 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

I was thinking of doing something similar with bonds, have you done any work in this area?

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:53 | 1427113 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

What America needs is some one who will tell them the facts so that the system can reorder itself based on some semblance of reality...

I'm sure it will look like a depression in the beginning but once you find bedrock you can rebuild pretty fast...

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:33 | 1427474 Rainman
Rainman's picture

Good idea....however, the last person to tell people the facts got hung on a cross.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:57 | 1427122 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

I wonder if Farrell is looking at the IBD Top 50 in slackjawed amazement today.

LOL....

http://clearstation.etrade.com/cgi-bin/bbs?post_id=9776652

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:06 | 1427155 Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

Yeah Robo, they're all related to malinvestments.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:31 | 1427269 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

You must be a Bloomie headline writer:

U.S. Stocks Erase Losses as Oil Surges, Offsetting Factory Report

Actual vs. perception managed cause/effect. Curious why you persist in the latter. I get it, you make money either way, I guess it's just depressing to see awake/aware people persist in the vulgarity because, deep down, they really are just soulless dicks.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 13:59 | 1427129 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

This assumes that Wall Street will remain standing with a good depression.  Badddd assumption.  You can't have health without preventative care. The body is full of tumors. Surgery and death panels are necessary tools.

Imagine a good depression for a moment. You only wipe out the low end, guaranteeing someone just above them is ready to replace them.  Been done, ongoing. The calculating butchers responsible get to make nice and back to pillaging as normal?  They have tasted blood, they want more. They only have to spend a million to make 100x if they bribe the right tool.

I wonder when the war starts?

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:01 | 1427136 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Is American Idol going to be on after all this is the only fucking thing Americans wants to know and when is the next Macy;s sale. Fuck the bitchezzzz

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:41 | 1427300 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

Even the Idol is getting cannibalized (The Voice).  The "Barbarians at the Gate" of the 80's are looking like quaint grandmas.  Post-apocylyptic visions are usually ensconced in a surprise event or something relatively immediate, but Rome truthfully didn't fall in a day (and New Rome probably won't ever really totally fall, just rot).  Yet, I continue to propagate children.  Biology trumps rationality every time.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 17:30 | 1427828 Anaxagoras
Anaxagoras's picture

Don't forget "Dancing With the Stars." Hope the new season starts soon...

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:03 | 1427139 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

Raise the debt ceiling = Continue to pay off the bankters fraudulent debt supposedly legitimately because it continues to happen through the structure. (of course at the blood cost of killing millions through reduced 'entitlements', or called reality for human beings since they are living and have needs....it's a bit more authentic then calling them 'entitlements')

Don't raise the debt ceiling = Obama (or hell any bankster president of any party left/right/center/tea)...The executive branch enacts the 14th ammendment to continue making payments to the banksters for their fraudulent debt...in the meantime taking over the power of the purse for as long as we are over that debt limit. (so forever)

Or you could take the only sane way out

Enact Glass-Steagall

This would delegitimize the fraud obama and ron paul call legitimate.  The debt. 

It's not legitimate.

It's fraud.

End it. Then we aren't anywhere near the 'debt ceiling'.  There is no need for 'cuts' that kill people.  No need to throw people to the wolves, because we directed the wolves back to their master, the banksters.  Let them feed the wolves with their worthless fraudulent paper debt fraud.

Glass-Steagall and show Ron Paul and Obama that they are fucktards to the extreme...and everyone else that misthinks along their idiot MONETARIST lines.

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:06 | 1427151 Pinktip
Pinktip's picture

Why? Our war machine generates such “spectacular profits that many people around the world” are convinced America’s “rich and powerful must be deliberately causing catastrophes so that they can exploit them,”

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.[12]

 

 

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:10 | 1427177 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

I know the truth in my Heart! All of your sourced and sited Facts dont make me feel good.. therefor they must be the work of the devil!

 

America is all about Freedom! Protecting "We the People" from the evils out there in the World.. like you that spread the truth that makes me feel bad!

 

Truth for Sheep ='s a good feeling.. or a good feeling will over ride the truth.. every time! Thank God the Sheep have been Trained to respond to good feelings over Truth! 3-D T.V.'s for every pot! ( a chicken for every pot)

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:05 | 1427152 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5tB35le3w0

 

All of YOU! are Threats to the Police State! Threats to the Corporate Wonderland that is the United States of America!

 

"We the People" will rise up and Take Back our Freedoms that were Stolen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5tB35le3w0 /

 

Have a Political View? Share this view on Twitter or Blog? **YOU!** are a Terrorist PER Homeland Security http://goo.gl/0YRnN See Link(s) and Official Report(s).

 


"We the People" will demand that everyone is treated the same, thusly a flat tax with no loop holes and / or subsidies for the top 1% of the top 1%!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w27OzQDX7Q

 

I am just kidding.. Fat Lazy Americans are to fucking stupid to effect any real change.

 

YOU CANT FIX STUPID!!

 

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:09 | 1427166 Fat Ass
Fat Ass's picture

"Something’s structural wrong" ...

GET A FUCKING PROOF READER, YOU FUCKING MORON AMATEURS!  What a joke.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:12 | 1427191 Silver Dreamer
Silver Dreamer's picture

In all fairness, this is the Internet.  Since when have facts and grammar mattered?

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:14 | 1427194 Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

Is the United States "number one"?  Many Americans take deep pride in their nation and the truth is that the U.S. has a lot going for it.  Read 20 not so good categories that the US leads the world in.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/number-one-20-not-so-good-categories-that-the-united-states-leads-the-world-in 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:03 | 1427361 Robslob
Robslob's picture

Ying yang sigh...

 

 

#1 The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world and the largest total prison population on the entire globe.

Prisons are good for business...

#2 According to NationMaster.com, the United States has the highest percentage of obese people in the world.

Poor people will be our next food source Ref: Soilent Green

#3 The United States has the highest divorce rate on the globe by a wide margin.

We have some really hot chicks here...

#4 The United States is tied with the U.K. for the most hours of television watched per person each week.

We have really good television programming like DWTS, AI, SYTYCD, Glee etc...

#5 The United States has the highest rate of illegal drug use on the entire planet.

Legalize pot like everybody else...problem solved.

#6 There are more car thefts in the United States each year than anywhere else in the world by far.

We have more care...more cars = more theft...it is a numbers game...

#7 There are more reported rapes in the United States each year than anywhere else in the world.

We have really hot women here...oops, already used that one.

#8 There are more reported murders in the United States each year than anywhere else in the world.

Because we actually report the murders...

#9 There are more total crimes in the United States each year than anywhere else in the world.

Crime is good business...we wouldn't want to hurt the economy stupid?

#10 The United States also has more police officers than anywhere else in the world.

Another form of military but mostly used for writing tickets which, again, is good business...

#11 The United States spends much more on health care as a percentage of GDP than any other nation on the face of the earth.

Because we charge for healthcare?

#12 The United States has more people on pharmaceutical drugs than any other country on the planet.

Because real drugs aren't legal.

#13 The percentage of women taking antidepressants in America is higherthan in any other country in the world.

See #7 above...

#14 Americans have more student loan debt than anyone else in the world.

Hey, college is supposed to fun...what is the problem?

#15 More pornography is created in the United States than anywhere else on the entire globe.  89 percent is made in the U.S.A. and only 11 percent is made in the rest of the world.

Finally we are the lead exporter in something other than inflation and now you complain?

#16 The United States has the largest trade deficit in the world every single year.  Between December 2000 and December 2010, the United States ran a total trade deficit of 6.1 trillion dollars with the rest of the world, and the U.S. has had a negative trade balance every single year since 1976.

It isn't only people in the US that are on government funded programs like welfare and kickbacks are never free.

#17 The United States spends 7 times more on the military than any other nation on the planet does.  In fact, U.S. military spending is greater than the military spending of China, Russia, Japan, India, and the rest of NATO combined.

The world's best police force has a price for goodness sake.

#18 The United States has far more foreign military bases than any other country does.

They won't be "foreign" after they are annexed...problem solved.

#19 The United States has the most complicated tax system in the entire world.

Somebody has to pay for 1-18 and #20...

#20 The U.S. has accumulated the biggest national debt that the world has ever seen and it is rapidly getting worse.  Right now, U.S. government debt is expanding at a rate of $40,000 per second.

It only got expensive when we had to bail ourself out...otherwise it's not that bad? Signed with Love, Timah Geetner, Been Bernaked and Barry Obama

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:17 | 1427414 Incubus
Incubus's picture

American women are all fake and bake hoes with an eye on your wallet.   

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:18 | 1427217 Franken_Stein
Franken_Stein's picture

 

Have you ever heard of this wonderful American made wind power generator ?

The Helix.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9flSPAdOLk

 

http://www.helixwind.com/en/S322.php

 

Here is my suggestion:

Instead of having centralized power generation in behemoth power plants,

how about the following business model:

 

As a company rent roof space or private ground acreage from willing participants and erect these vertical helix windmills there that make no noise and have limited visual impact,  and then feed all of the generated power into the grid and have end users pay for the kWhrs.

For partakers in the space rent scheme you could lower the $/kWh to be paid and offset it with the space rent they receive.

 

Decentralized power generation would also reduce the amount of cable and pylons needed.

Generate the power where it is consumed.

That mantra must be key in any planning.

 

The Helix is especially well suited to be put on top of skyscrapers and high-rise buildings.

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 19:23 | 1428081 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

An excellent suggestion.  Well done sir!

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 00:03 | 1428675 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Which is exactly why the regulators will strangle it in its crib.  The elites hate decentralized power, both figuratively and literally.  If people could go off the grid they would have less reason to support the system.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:25 | 1427238 Milestones
Milestones's picture

The article hit its mark; The Hornets Nest. Right on target.     Milestones

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:25 | 1427240 bourbondave
bourbondave's picture

Is this reall "spot on"?  It seems too many commentators mistake Capitalism/Free Market for Wall Street?  Does the fact that the banks/political class are fleecing everyone mean that the free market has failed?  Can anyone really call what we have today a free market or capitalism?

Maybe the answer is that human nature means that any attempt at capitalism will end in the same place as socialism which is cronyism.  Just takes a different path to get there.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:28 | 1427257 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

A good depression will collapse/break-up TBTF, end ZIRP and make way for a banking system that favors community investment not speculating with depositors money.

The FED will not voluntary allow deflation. The only positive of this is they will detonate their balance sheet when they destroy the currency which will cause them to lose any remaining credibility. This will be our chance to revoke their charter and close their doors permanently

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:16 | 1427588 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The corporations are useless skeletons...  always have been.  They're merely a shield in front of the assets of private persons.  Booty is taken from the corporation (as it pillages and plunders) and is placed in the hands of private actors...  who have varying degrees of involvement in the shenanigans.

I think you, and most people, presume that a destruction of the corporate banking/financial world would necessarily make some semblance of headway in our problems...  I am not so presumptuous.  Given the size and scope of the wealth gap, you may be simply wishing to trade masters (the successors potentially being even more burdensome).

A good depression, in and of itself, will not cure all that ails us...  it will clear much malinvestment, for sure...  and, it will probably narrow the wealth gap...  the question of course, is by how much?  Will it simply create a buying spree of debt for those at the top of the food chain, eventually leading to the consolidation of REAL assets via foreclosure?  Will it simply create a scenario whereby the headstart given to the ultra wealthy presents insurmountable barriers (presently I would describe them as very difficult) to entry for startups and small businesses?  Will everyone just work for the company store instead of uncle sam?

Too many variables.

As a parting note, I'll posit that control of the government must be had by intelligent, rational actors who truly do wish to represent their constituencies in the utmost of fiduciary capacities...  and this must be had BEFORE the collapse and they must exercise a multi-part plan to restructure the country top to bottom...  I mean literally about everything on the table.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:31 | 1427267 Lazane
Lazane's picture

buy, accumulate and keep real money, cause all the glitter is gold and silver.

somebody put a fork in this charade and legislate a new glass steagall 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:19 | 1427596 skipjack
skipjack's picture

Glass-Steagall requires non-captured regulators.  Seen any in the past 30+ years ?  Thought not...We had Glass-Steagall in 1987, yet the S&Ls failed and we bailed out the miscreants.  Why do you think it would be better if we brought G-S back now ?

 

Anything that relies on regulation is destined to fail.  The only non-corruptible regulator that works is ...wait for it... FAILURE.  Actual, soul-destroying, reputation-shattering, clean-out-the-bank-account failure.  Let the banks, businesses and politicians who overleverage FAIL.  THAT's capitalism, not this corporatism that bails out the well-connected and stays in business due only to the contents of its Rolodex.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 19:27 | 1428089 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

What a moronic comment.

Do you seriously think that the S&L crisis was anywhere near as bad as this?  Can you say Keating 5?  "Anything that relies on regulation is destined to fail"  If you seriously think this is true, then I've got some toilet water bottled as 'glacier pure' that I'd like to sell you.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:40 | 1427291 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

The mega-wealthy control everything including the media, which has always been the written expression of exasperation of the people.  For the mega-wealthy we are in the best times ever.  They are getting wealthier, exercising greater power, getting cheaper labor, and honoring themselves more and more.  What depression?

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:06 | 1427569 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 18:17 | 1427937 iNull
iNull's picture

Picture a line of spinning plates at a cheap burlesque show. If there is no middle class workers to keep the plates spinning they crash to the floor. We are all symbiots. It's time we realized that.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:40 | 1427292 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

"rising interest rates"? I've been waiting for interest rates to rise for quite a while now. 

 

Pray tell when will these rates rise? When bond yields go through the roof?

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:42 | 1427303 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

sure, let's have a depression now, **after** the maggots have already stolen all the money.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 18:15 | 1427933 iNull
iNull's picture

That was the plan all along.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:50 | 1427336 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

Saturn to Earth : there is no capitalism on Earth since the early 20th century. The system currently in place is called 'corporatism'. It is a creature of a merger between democratic socialism and fascism. Ignore these apparently benign semantics at your own peril, for your next switch towards a new system could be your last.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:22 | 1427597 skipjack
skipjack's picture

+1T (or more, altho I'd argue there's been no capitalism in America since the War of Northern Aggression) :)

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:04 | 1427378 bardian
bardian's picture

No Tyler, not spot on. Exactly 180 degrees off.

This is either a government shill instigating class warfare or a moron who doesn't understand capitalism, politics, or human behavior for that matter, like most of the contributors to this website.

Of course we understand why this has happened and capitalism has been corrupted.  Credit expansion through government monopoly of the monetary system creates bubbles not only in physical assets, but also encourages and enhances arbitrage activity leading to  stockmania and materialism.

Blaming greed is just another way of shifting the blame from government to people. Sure, its all our fault, we deserve another depression for all of our rotten greed that we have lasciviously enjoyed for the past decades.  Why stop there, lets have five more depressions and wipe out half the population, mabye then our guilt will be relieved. 

Tell you what, every time you act, if you think you are acting in self interest, taser yourself.  That way no one can ever call you greedy.

THE PROBLEM IS GOVERNMENT PEOPLE.

The answer is... wait for it... no government.

 

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:39 | 1427489 oldman
oldman's picture

bardian,

As an idea, I like "---no government."

The trouble with that is that these criminals have all of the assets, jobs, and weapons; they would LOVE no government and the reason they are destroying it.

Whaddaya gonna do, vote?

Rise up in arms?

Have a silver/internet revolution?

Try to get close enough to one of the motus to ask a question

We are the problem. We voluntarily walked into this matrix from our self-indulgence and the door is now shut and walled-in behind us.
But, you know what?

If we don't cook the food, sweep the streets, pick up the garbage, maintain the grid, open the doors, drive the trucks/cabs/buses, etc,

WHO IS GOING TO DO ALL THE WORK?

We are failing for a lot of reasons, but one of the most important ones is that WE continue to do the bidding of those we curse: true slave behaviour not worthy of normal serfs, and definitely not worthy of what I think of as humans.

We had fun a day or so past with the 'do-nothing' philosophy----I was surprised how long the thread was---and we were just playing, but I'll bet that most of us who enjoyed the fun also understood, just for a moment or two----a possibility for change without violence on OUR part.

I love to fight and enjoyed 'fight club', but that won't play in this game---these dudes will shoot your ass without a thought on the order of their alpha dog.

I am all about doing something about this matrix by doing-nothing

That is what we 'do-nothing dudes' are about!

tired now---almost ramped up to 'RANT'

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:17 | 1427592 JoBob
JoBob's picture

It may be an old idea, but have you tried voting for someone who will actually do something positive?

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:24 | 1427607 skipjack
skipjack's picture

Voting on which crook you want to rob you doesn't seem to be a productive idea.  I am with the no government, no robbery folks.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 00:31 | 1428726 oldman
oldman's picture

Please, JoBob

I took my voting rights away from this old man when after voting for regean in 1980 he placed tariffs on foreign steel and then two weeks later said not a single word about the six per cent increase the 'steel industry' waylaid the public with----i would never give this old fool another vote after failing so monumentally to exercise it with intelligence.

Since that date, in favor of my loss of voting, there has not been a single candidate with the capacity to govern this most powerful and wealthy nation; not a single one that would be a personal choice of this oldman.

To answer your question directly, now, "----have you tried voting for someone who will actually do something positive?". I must say that there has not been a single candidate who would have DONE anything positive, imo.

SO, JoBob, I have NOT "tried votingfor someone who will actually do something positive", I am proud to say. There has been no one to vote for, imj, not a single pol.

Part of why I remain a 'do-nothing dude'.

Thank you for your question JoBob

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:05 | 1427384 slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

Nothing will happen until one of the states seeks remove itself from the US...texas maybe.

If not then buy gold, guns and food and prepare.

When the zombies come out, they wont descriminate on who they eat.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:06 | 1427388 Robslob
Robslob's picture

Rule #1: Cardio

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:43 | 1427506 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

Maybe these guys will be first...and the first to outrun the rest of the f*cking zombie entitlement state before they finish devouring the rest of the productive folks' brains!

 

 

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/07/01/official-calls-for-riverside-12-other-counties-to-secede-from-california/

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:46 | 1427513 oldman
oldman's picture

I hope so

I'm tired of 'california dreamin''

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:58 | 1427545 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

I am, too! It's more like California Pipedreamin' with guv moonbat at the helm

 

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:55 | 1427533 flacorps
flacorps's picture

Individuals can do what nations and corporations cannot. They can stop paying bank$ter$ and spurn government-sponsored (but illusory) bankruptcy "protection". In most cases they can go on living their lives, with only a few dunning calls and letters to bother them--and those can be turned into cash cows. In a few cases they may have to settle a debt ... in the 20-30 cents on the dollar range.

My book, "Debt Hope: Down and Dirty Survival Strategies" documents how the world of consumer debt works today, and how consumers can turn the tactics of the enemy to their own advantage.

By all means, a good, short, shocking depression like 1919 is far better than the bone-grinder of '29-'41, which can only be escaped through war.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 17:50 | 1427857 squexx
squexx's picture

A good start would be going after every member of a certain very evil group of hooked nose, beanie wearers!

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 18:05 | 1427909 iNull
iNull's picture

As an card-carrying doomista I don't believe in quick fixes (i.e., that there are any) but I would at least do the following to lessen the pain and suffering for what's to come:

1) Reinstate Glass-Steagal starting yesterday and convene a Grand Jury to hand up criminal indictments of the top level banksters at GS, JPM, Citi, WF, BofA, AIG, et al.

2a) End globalization and "free trade." No seriously. End it. Rip up the NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, WTO treaties and start over. Implement "Fair Trade" that protects American workers and industry and throw Krugmanesque free trade into the dustbin of history where it shall never be spoken of again.

2b) Rebuild American industry. Steel, rail, power, auto, aerospace, textile, etc. This will be hard as we've already exported most of the technology/IP/industry to foreign countries. But again, this is largely the result of criminal elements on Wall Street. Once they're in jail and no longer a threat to the country we can begin the process of rebuilding. So see to (1) straight away.

3) Protect the borders. 'nuff said.

4a) End the hegemonistic foreign policy of 150 some odd forward deployed military bases all over the world. a) We can't afford it. b) It's a throwback to cold war geopolitical chess that simply doesn't work in the 21st century (and FWIW it didn't work all that well in 20th either).

4b) End colonial war making/mongering as an instrument of foreign policy. Same reason as 4a).

5) Dramatically reduce the nuclear weapons stockpiles of all "member nations" around the world while we still have the money and resources to do so (even if they are just printed). There are still thousands of nuclear weapons on hair-trigger alert so this is still one of the greatest threats to mankind. Once economic collapse occurs we won't be able to afford the logistics of de-proliferation, and, people will be far more concerned about the whole food/air/water/shelter deal. Get 'er done while we still have bipartisan support to do so.

6) Be honest with the American people about...everything. Tell them the truth for once. About the debt. About unfunded liabilities. About climate change. About resources. Give it to them straight and stop trying to manipulate public opinion.

That will do for starters.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 00:37 | 1428734 oldman
oldman's picture

Dear iNull,

If you will swear under penalty of death to do what you wrote above, this old fool will vote for to be the next president of the US of A.

It would be a start and it would be under penalty of death so you would at least be able to choose your executioner.

Capiche, iNull?

 

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 02:17 | 1428812 iNull
iNull's picture

I swear under penalty of death that I would implement such policy and that this is the best possible option for the U.S. Elect me? Sure. But file under be careful what you wish for.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 09:51 | 1429394 Glasater55
Glasater55's picture

To implement your "policy"--you'd have to wipe out the enviros first.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 02:41 | 1428822 oldman
oldman's picture

iNull-------------------

Thanks, brother

you've got my vote

let me know what you need

the 'do-nothing dudes' have been waiting for this

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 16:42 | 1430850 oni_baba
oni_baba's picture

This may not be the change the do-nothings advocate, but the TRADE act looks to turn back the clock on free-trade.  there is something on the table to perhaps consider... http://www.citizen.org/trade/tradeact/

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!