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Physical Silver (PSLV) Premium To NAV Surges To Record High

Tyler Durden's picture


While rumors that certain banks and exchanges may or may not be experiencing a dramatic run on physical silver are propagating across the blogosphere, we won't know for sure until we see Blythe Masters resignation letter. In the meantime Alexander Gloy of Lighthouse Investment reminds us of something very much indisputable: the physical premium over paper silver has just hit 20%, or an all time record. For all those who claim (oddly enough) that silver is really ubiquitous and one kicks around discarded bars of silver just walking down the street, should most certainly bet on this spread collapsing. Everyone else (presumably those who have been long physical silver for months if not years) are advised to sit tight.


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Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:41 | 1026365 Harmonious_Diss...
Harmonious_Dissonance's picture

Let's get PHYSICAL!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:47 | 1026386 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

rivers of silver.  flowing thru a town near you!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:25 | 1026549 william the bastard
william the bastard's picture

scarcity as an object lesson

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:30 | 1026575 Harmonious_Diss...
Harmonious_Dissonance's picture

The Gorn knows

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:11 | 1026713 Upswaller
Upswaller's picture

Why would Blythe resign when she's only doing what the government pays her to do?  

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:39 | 1026851 Overflow-admin
Overflow-admin's picture

</sarcasm> as an object lesson ;)

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:54 | 1026426 Roy Bush
Roy Bush's picture

This is a little misleading....most who invest in PSLV don't necessarily know that there is a a super-high premium.  Obviously physical coins aren't selling for a 20% premium.  Sprott knows this as well, which is one of the reasons why the share price doesn't exactly correlate to the price of silver.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:02 | 1026463 Sad Sufi
Sad Sufi's picture

You are saying that the 19% premium is "bought" by the PSLV buyers, but it does not reflect actual value of physical over spot?  Agreed.

There is a wildfire under that trust!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 18:41 | 1027723 SRV - ES339
SRV - ES339's picture

"Roy Bush"

u r very confused... this is a link to their site...


Tue, 03/08/2011 - 00:21 | 1028641 Roy Bush
Roy Bush's picture


I'm not confused at all.  I used to be a holder of PSLV and I applaud everything that Mr. Sprott has done.  He has been an important part of the silver short squeeze that is happening now.  And, I've read the prospectus and I'm well aware of the premium put on the shares.  Each share represents a portion of the silver that Sprott is holding....and the share price to NAV is trading at a substantial premium.  This premium is greater than the physical market.  Some obviously don't care about the premium as there are advantages to buying these PSLV shares....1. Sprott actually holds silver. 2. The shares trade easily. 3. If you hold enough you can actually redeem for real silver (you have to hold a lot btw).

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:10 | 1026494 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Nothing misleading at all. Due diligence tells you what's going on. It would not be trading so high to it's NAV, if it wasn't for the fact it is not an empty shell like SLV. Just as the premiums climb on physical silver over spot- it is all very clear- there are supply issues.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:15 | 1026512 Math Man
Math Man's picture

SLV has arb mechanism that keeps it tracking spot... PSLV does not.

SLV also has the silver, it has to be deposited in an allocated account in order for the trust to issue shares to an AP.

Poor stupid retail.  Paying up for something because they believe Sprott's lies. 

You can exchange your SLV for physcial too...  just give an AP 50k shares an ask them to do it for you.

Einhorn did it with GLD...  any body can take their physical if they want it.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:21 | 1026543 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Paper, paper, paper, paper..........the accounts are allocated and unallocated. Read the prospectus like I told you before or are you just lying? Thought so.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:24 | 1026554 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Go to the SLV website.

Click on the 'Silver Bar List' pdf.

You will find a list of all of the bars (10,000+ pages).  They are all held in allocated accounts, and audited on a regular basis.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:27 | 1026566 Harmonious_Diss...
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:27 | 1026568 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Did. The prospectus clearly says allocated and unallocated. It also says the bars are in London at JPM. Aren't those pants getting a little hot by now?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:17 | 1026736 Math Man
Math Man's picture

And the list clearly says there are 346mm ALLOCATED ounces.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:23 | 1026765 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

What's the matter? Having a harder time drumming up the small buy ins that can't ask for possession to dump this whole ponzi scheme on? Poor baby. Wonder why the march OI continues to fall, but there are no payouts from the vaults? Could it be JPM must pay off buyers at a premium? Why would you pay a premium IF YOU HAD THE SILVER?

Troll on Methman.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:36 | 1026841 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Unallocated silver is limited to 1100 ounces.  They have 346mm allocated ounces.

"The custodian may hold silver for the account of the trust on an unallocated basis. However, the custodian must take reasonable action to minimize the amount of bullion in the trust’s account that is on an unallocated basis, and the custodian must allocate silver bars to the account of the trust so that no more than 1100 ounces of silver are held for the trust’s account on an unallocated basis at the end of each business day of the custodian."

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:43 | 1026875 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

JPM can't supply the March contracts- Where's the silver? Who want's to be left with a handfull of nothing? The auditing is a joke. Read Project mayhem. Your selling garbage and the only one buying is buyers of size- the Chinese. While the silver dwindles and dwindles and dwindles...Better stop selling soon- you might end up facing an indictment for fraud...

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:00 | 1026968 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Bullshit.  Only around 1800 contracts have put in notice...  only 9mm ounces are required.  COMEX has plenty of silver to satisify the deliveries.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:03 | 1026981 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

The number of contracts have dropped everyday, but the silver has not been delivered. They have been paid off plus a premium. Why would you do that, if you had the silver? Why pay a fat premium to NOT take delivery? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:17 | 1027032 Math Man
Math Man's picture

You have no idea how settlement works.  99% of contracts are settled for cash...  and no premiums are being paid.  If they were being paid a premium EVERY contract would have put in a delivery notice.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:31 | 1027079 Exposer of Inte...
Exposer of Internet Shills's picture

Not in DECEMBER they were'nt  I think you knew this too, this makes you a SHILL.  You have been SPOTTED by the Exposer of internet shills

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:43 | 1027125 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Actually, I do and the comex report says you're a liar. How do you maneuver around that cubicle with such a pinnochio nose?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 16:03 | 1027193 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Where on the COMEX report does it say a premium was paid to induce parties to settle in cash?

Fucking seriously.  The amount of mis-information you clowns spew is amazing.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 17:00 | 1027351 DonutBoy
DonutBoy's picture

Well Math Man, for what it's worth - I agree with everything you wrote in this thread.  A lot of emotional responses, people seem to have locked-in beliefs that must be DEFENDED in all caps and with junks!

What's troubling me is why smart guys have not gone long SLV and short PSLV.  It seems too easy.  In other words there *is* an arb mechanism on PSLV.  It should be shorted down to NAV or else it's free money.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 17:58 | 1027567 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

good question, easy answer:  there's no borrow available.  thus, you can't short it.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 17:50 | 1027424 Mark McGoldrick
Mark McGoldrick's picture

I find it truly hilarious that the posts with the most junks at ZeroHedge are typically the most accurate.

Tough crowd around here.....if you're not dead wrong, you're hated.

By the way, here's some conspiracy for you for all you silver nuts:

Now, who's the head of equity trading at RBC GAM, the lead underwriters of Sprott's PSLV?




Mon, 03/07/2011 - 18:11 | 1027615 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No, idiot.  99% of TRADES are settled in cash.  Each and every contract that exists at the end of the front month MUST settle in silver.  After that date, a long and a short are no longer allowed to cancel out, they must deliver the metal, PERIOD.  It is literally against the law to settle in anything other than the commodity being traded.

Honestly, this is amateur stuff.  You clearly have NO IDEA what you are talking about, and would do well to remain silent.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 22:43 | 1028367 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

tmosley - each and every March contract that exists at expiration must settle in silver.  Expiration isn't until the end of March.

There seems to be masssive confusion between first notice day (beginning of the month) and expiration (end of the month)

Trades can absolutely be closed out during the month, which is exactly what we're seeing now.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 20:15 | 1027955 Silva Plata
Silva Plata's picture

Golly, if you can't trust JPM, HSBC, The SLV perspectus and Math Man to tell the truth, who can you trust? I'm in!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:38 | 1026606 Ray1968
Ray1968's picture

Ask to see those serial numbers in a vault. Nowhere does it say that the bars are physically located in their possession.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:52 | 1026642 Vanderdekken
Vanderdekken's picture

Various discrepencies (incomplete or re-occuring serial numbers) have been found on that very same list. I can count the 100 odd ounces of silver that i own 400,000 times over and start my own silver ETF if i really wanted to.

When it comes crashing down, i offer you my deepest "oops"

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 22:40 | 1028356 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

You are .999 pure troll shit.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 22:48 | 1028387 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

I can put up a website with a list of bars too.  Want to send me $5000?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:48 | 1026604 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

To: Math Man and anybody else that wants the TRUTH ABOUT SLV & GLD.

In response to fixing the obviously corrupt and broken global financial system and all of its products, we believe that the first step, even before the implementation of a new, sound and legitimate monetary system, is the establishment of a free market for gold and silver. As those of us that have been involved in PM markets for the past couple of decades can attest to, the circumstantial evidence of price behavior, as well as concrete evidence manifested by past US Federal Reserve memos obtained through FOIA requests, have proven that gold and silver markets have been highly manipulated with all the manipulation on the side of price suppression. It also seems likely that certain products developed by bankers to sell gold and silver, specifically the GLD and SLV ETFs, may mislead and misdirect the investment of billions of dollars into products that ultimately also may surreptitiously serve to suppress gold and silver prices. The usual suspects are the bullion banks that have been employed by the Central Banks in the past to short gold and silver and keep prices down. Currently the US Department of Justice has been investigating JP Morgan?s alleged role in the suppression of silver prices. (1) the GLD and SLV are not fraudulent investment vehicles that are actually used by JP Morgan and HSBC to suppress the price of silver and gold respectively; or

If enough of you email the below letter to, if the GLD and SLV are revealed to be fraudulent in the future and the DOJ fails to act upon thousands of requests for an investigation into the intended purpose of the GLD and SLV ETFs, then the US DOJ will have a public relations nightmare on their hands for having received thousands of inquiries into the questionable information contained within the security filings of the GLD and SLV and for having failed to protect the consumer.

US Department of Justice

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW

Washington DC 20530-0001

Dear Attorney General Eric Holder:

In response to your open investigation regarding the suppression of silver prices in the COMEX futures markets by JP Morgan, we believe that two PM ETFs, the SLV, of which JP Morgan serves as custodian, and the GLD, of which HSBC serves as custodian, firmly deserve a thorough investigation as well. The SEC has proven itself incapable of investigating, identifying or even willing to prosecute fraud even when presented with ample damning evidence (reference Harry Markopolous and his failure to provoke the SEC to shut down Bernard Madoff?s Ponzi scheme for nine years). Consequently, we believe it is incumbent upon the Department of Justice to take the initiative to restore the confidence of the American people in US financial markets as your office stands as the last bastion of hope in defending integrity in financial markets and security regulatory agencies have proven themselves to be woefully inadequate and incapable of this task. To this end, we request an immediate investigation into the legitimacy of the SLV and GLD exchange traded funds for the following reasons.

We believe that there are far too many loopholes contained in the prospectuses and legal filings of both the GLD and SLV that present the very strong possibility, and probable likelihood, that these funds engage in deceptive and fraudulent business practices. If our suspicions about these two funds are proven to be founded, we believe that the actions involved with the administration of the GLD and SLV exchange traded funds may mirror the fraudulent actions of Goldman Sachs in the mortgage backed securities markets, whereby Goldman Sachs packaged toxic MBS into collateralized debt obligations, represented them as solid investments to their clients even as they knew otherwise, and shorted them without their clients? knowledge to turn profits. In other words, we believe that the GLD and the SLV may have been formed with the very intent of diverting investment funds away from real physical gold and physical silver to provide a vehicle to suppress the price of gold and silver in physical markets without the knowledge of those clients that choose to invest in the GLD and SLV.

Please allow us to address our concerns with the GLD exchange traded fund below, and place it on record that our concerns with the SLV are the exact same as our below stated concerns with the GLD.

The Custodian of the GLD is HSBC Bank USA, N.A., or HSBC. The Custodian is responsible for the safekeeping of the Trust?s gold bars transferred to it in connection with the creation of Baskets by Authorized Participants. The Custodian also facilitates the transfer of gold in and out of the Trust through gold accounts it maintains for Authorized Participants and the Trust. The

Custodian is a market maker, clearer and approved weigher under the rules of the London Bullion Market Association, or LBMA. The Trustee is BNY Mellon Asset Servicing, a division of the Bank of New York Mellon.

There are numerous troubling descriptions in the GLD?s 10-K filing under the


"Custody of the Trust?s Gold"

section regarding the chain of custody that ensures that the GLD is backed 100% by fully allocated, London Good Delivery bars that have no third or fourth or fifth party claim. For example, the GLD 10-K filing states:

"The Custodian is authorized to appoint from time to time one or more subcustodians to hold the Trust?s gold until it can be transported to the Custodian?s London vault. The subcustodians that the Custodian currently uses are the Bank of England and LBMA market-making members that provide bullion vaulting and clearing services to third parties. The Custodian does not have written custody agreements with the subcustodians it selects. The Custodian?s selected subcustodians may appoint further subcustodians. These further subcustodians are not expected to have written custody agreements with the Custodian?s subcustodians that selected them."

There are huge problems in the above custody conditions that could allow for massive fraud. Why are there no written agreements between the Custodian and the subcustodians that ensure that the physical gold the subcustodians hold on behalf of the GLD will be 100% accounted for and 100% allocated at all times? If a fund was entrusting the physical storage of a precious metal to a third party, why are no written custody agreements in place to also ensure that the subcustodians must ensure that the gold they hold consists of Good Delivery bars? If the Trust is to hold gold allocated specifically in its name (except for the allowance of no more than 430 ounces of unallocated gold as stated in its prospectus), how can they ensure that the gold its subcustodians hold is 100% allocated if no written contracts specify any qualifications for the gold they hold in behalf of the Trust? These are glaring omissions of standard business practices for a fund that at the end of March 2010, held more than $40 billion of physical gold. In the next two months alone, the GLD supposedly added nearly 25% more physical gold to their vaults as they claimed by June 1, 2010 that the dollar value of physical gold they held as of June 1 exceeded $50 billion in value. Does all this physical gold exist in allocated form in Good Delivery bars as HSBC Bank USA claims?

If we continue reading the 10-K


"Custody of the Trust?s Gold"

, glaring omissions of standard business procedures grow even more worrisome. This section continues:

"The lack of such written contracts could affect the recourse of the Trust and the Custodian against any subcustodian in the event a subcustodian does not use due care in the safekeeping of the Trust?s gold… However, the Custodian may not have the right to, and does not have the obligation to, seek recovery of the gold from any subcustodian appointed by a subcustodian."

From the above passage, we must conclude that if the Custodian, HSBC Bank USA, requests the delivery of physical gold from a subcustodian and the gold is found not to exist, then the Custodian may have zero recourse and may not have a right to seek recovery of gold from said

subcustodian. Furthermore, the above states that the Custodian, HSBC Bank USA, does not even have an obligation to seek recovery of that gold if it is found not to exist in physical form. This is a massive red flag to anyone that wants to ensure the legitimacy of the GLD ETF. The first and foremost responsibility of the Custodian should be to ensure that the physical gold purchased by the Trust actually exists in the manner and terms that are represented to investors in the GLD. Why does the GLD?s 10-K absolve the Custodian, HSBC Bank USA, of the responsibility of ensuring that the physical gold allegedly held by the Trust exists, that the gold held in behalf of the GLD Trust is 100% allocated, and that this gold is in the form of Good Delivery bars?

Granted, the above concerns are moot if one can prove that:

(1) all allocated gold held by the Trust is held in their vaults and not the vaults of subcustodians; and

(2) that neither subcustodians nor any third party maintain a simultaneous claim on any gold held in the vaults of the Trust.

As we will point out later in this letter, under the current business practices of the GLD,


it is impossible to prove that either point (1) or (2) is true.

Of even greater concern is the following section of the description of the


"Custody of the Trust?s Gold"


"The Custodian and the Trustee do not require any direct or indirect subcustodians to be insured or bonded with respect to their custodial activities. The Custodian maintains insurance with regard to its business on such terms and conditions as it considers appropriate. The Trust will not be a beneficiary of any such insurance and does not have the ability to dictate the existence, nature or amount of the coverage. Therefore, Shareholders cannot be assured that the Custodian maintains adequate insurance or any insurance with respect to the gold held by the Custodian on behalf of the Trust."

The above passage acknowledges that the subcustodian vaults that contain the GLD?s physical gold have zero obligation to insure the value of the gold in their vaults. If inspections of the subcustodian vaults, which the Trustee only allows a maximum of twice a year, yields zero physical gold, shareholders of the GLD would have zero recourse for their massive losses.


Again, why is no insurance or bonding required for the physical storage of billions of dollars worth of gold (as of June 16, 2010) by subcustodians as it passes through the chain of custody to arrive in the GLD Trust vaults?

The lack of insurance is truly mindboggling.

The above fact becomes even more odd considering that BullionVault, a private gold dealer, holds insurance with Lloyds of London for up to $600 million for each of its individual vault locations, an amount that currently exceeds the gold stored at each of its individual vault locations. Cumulatively, BullionVault, as of June, 2010 stored $930 million of physical gold, all of which is more than adequately ensured. Conversely, the GLD held, as of March 31st, 2010,

more than 43 times the amount of gold held at BullionVault, yet its 10-K states that the Custodian may not maintain


"adequate insurance or any insurance" on more than $50 billion worth of gold. This, despite the fact that the Trust specifically acknowledges in the GLD prospectus that "The Trust?s gold may be subject to loss, damage, theft or restriction on access" and "The Trust may not have adequate sources of recovery if its gold is lost, damaged, stolen or destroyed and recovery may be limited, even in the event of fraud, to the market value of the gold at the time the fraud is discovered." Furthermore, the GLD prospectus clearly states:

"The Trust does not insure its gold. The Trust is not a beneficiary of any such insurance and does not have the ability to dictate the existence, nature or amount of coverage."

As of June, 2010, the amount of gold held by the GLD makes the GLD the fifth largest holder of gold in the world, ahead of the gold reserves of entire nations including China, Japan, the Netherlands, Russia, India and even the reserves of the European Central Bank. If every one of these countries/entities finds it excessively risky not to ensure the gold they hold, why does the GLD find it acceptable to not insure its allegedly massive physical gold holdings? On BullionVault?s website, BullionVault states


"your gold is protected by Via Mat?s extensive physical security measures and by externally underwritten insurance" and "in a vault, gold is so secure that it is extremely easy to insure and not expensive".

If gold stored in a secure vault is extremely easy to insure and inexepensive, why does the GLD refuse to insure 100% of its holdings? This again is a huge red flag that needs to be investigated.

At first glance, the 10-K


"Custody of the Trust?s Gold"

section and information in the GLD?s S-3 filing seem to disperse the above concerns:

"The Custodian is obliged under the Allocated Bullion Account Agreement to use commercially reasonable efforts to obtain delivery of gold from those subcustodians appointed by it. Under the customs and practices of the London bullion market, allocated gold is held by custodians and, on their behalf, by subcustodians under arrangements that permit each entity for which gold is being held. The Custodian provides the Trustee with statements on a monthly basis which contain sufficient information to identify each bar of gold held in the Trust Allocated Account and the custodian or subcustodian having possession of each bar."

"As at March 31, 2010, the amount of gold owned by the Trust was 36,324,952 ounces with a market value of $40,520,483,790 (cost – $30,289,189,919), including gold receivable of 166,431 ounces with a market value of $185,653,480 based on the London PM fix on March 31, 2010. As at March 31, 2010, the Custodian held 36,158,483 ounces of allocated gold in the form of London Good Delivery gold bars in its vault and 38 ounces of unallocated gold, excluding gold receivables, with a market value of $40,334,830,509 (cost – $30,103,536,538).


Subcustodians held nil ounces of gold in their vaults on behalf of the Trust and 166,431 ounces of gold was receivable by the Trust in connection with the creation of Baskets (which gold was received by the Custodian in the normal course of business)."

To this end, we have scripted an open letter below to the US DOJ that we encourage all of you to cut and paste and email to the DOJ in the hopes of prompting another investigation that will help establish free markets for silver and gold, an event that corrupt Central Banks never want to see materialize. Should our suspicions be founded regarding the true nature of the GLD and SLV, the continued administration of these potential frauds has negative consequences a million-fold greater than Bernard Madoff?s Ponzi scheme. If our suspicions regarding the GLD and SLV prove to be correct, then bankers would be utilizing these ETFs to support the continuation of Keynesian economic policies and fiat currencies that are at the very root of sovereign debt crises that threaten some of the largest economies in Asia, Europe and the Americas as well as the livelihood of billions of their citizens. If thousands of concerned citizens send this letter to the DOJ, we can either establish once and for all that:


(2) they are fraudulent and should be shuttered before they are able to operate without impunity for nine years as did Madoff’s Ponzi scheme.

However, upon further inspection of the GLD?s business filings, the two above statements do not put any of our concerns to rest. The existence of physical gold within the subcustodian vaults can never be proven, because the 10-K states "In addition, the Trustee has no right to visit the premises of any subcustodian for the purposes of examining the Trust?s gold or any records maintained by the subcustodian, and no subcustodian is obligated to cooperate in any review the Trustee may wish to conduct of the facilities, procedures, records or creditworthiness of such subcustodian."


Consequently, even if the subcustodian provides records and lists of each individual gold bar it holds, these holdings can never by verified if significant amounts of the GLD?s gold is stored in subcustodian vaults. In addition, even if the Trust has indeed taken delivery of all physical gold from subcustodians for storage "in its vault" as it claims in its most recent S-3 filing, we still cannot strike any of our major three concerns about the GLD from potentially being subject to fraud. Because the GLD prospectus states

"The ability of the Trustee to monitor the performance of the Custodian may be limited because under the Custody Agreements the Trustee may, only up to twice a year, visit the premises of the Custodian for the purpose of examining the Trust?s gold and certain related records maintained by the Custodian."

Even if the Custodian can prove that all the gold it claims it has purchased on behalf of its customers for the GLD exists, since inspection of its gold is allowed a maximum of twice a year, such an arrangement allows the Custodian to possibly operate a Ponzi scheme to suppress the price of gold if it so desires, one in which it would transfer into its vaults physical gold held in subcustodian vaults that has already been purchased by third parties for the purposes of inspection and then transfer it back out after the inspections have been completed.


Just the potential of such an arrangement leading to fraud should create a need for more specific and meticulous vetting of the physical gold held for the Trust.

We have broached enough serious concerns in this letter to bring the legitimacy of the GLD into question. Just because HSBC Bank USA claims it physically possesses Good Delivery bars in 100% allocated form on behalf of its Trust does not make this claim a fact. Numerous procedural loopholes have been set up in the operation of the Trust that seemingly have no purpose but to prevent the determination and simple assessment that the Custodian holds gold in allocated form in Good Delivery bars. Bernard Madoff produced statements to his clients that illustrated he was engaging in trades for his clients despite the fact that he executed zero trades. The business practices of the GLD leave the GLD open to such deception as well, and were all shareholders of the GLD to take physical delivery of gold held in the Trust, we are quite certain that knowledge of the contents of this letter would introduce serious doubt as to whether the GLD could make good on all physical delivery.

A further troubling aspect regarding the form of gold held in the GLD is exposed through the GLD?s procedure for redemption of its shares into physical delivery of gold. The GLD?s prospectus claims that only


"Only Authorized Participants, and no shareholders, have the right to redeem shares for actual gold"

in the form of a basket that consists of 100,000 shares. The

authorized participants as of March 31, 2010 were BMO Capital Markets Corp., CIBC World Markets Corp., Citigroup Global Markets Inc., Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC, Deutsche Bank Securities Inc., EWT, LLC, Goldman, Sachs & Co., Goldman Sachs Execution & Clearing L.P., HSBC Securities (USA) Inc., J.P. Morgan Securities Inc., Merrill Lynch Professional Clearing Corp., Morgan Stanley & Co. Incorporated, Newedge USA LLC, RBC Capital Markets Corporation, Scotia Capital (USA) Inc. and UBS Securities LLC. A good number of the firms on this list, including Deutsche Bank, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and Scotia Capital have been known to act as bullion agents in the past for the US Federal Reserve central bank. Of this list, five of the authorized participants,


Deustche Bank, Goldman Sachs, HSBC, JP Morgan, and UBS

, are market makers that establish the daily London AM and PM price fix for gold.

However, of greater concern is the following. The GLD?s 10-K dated March 31, 2010 states,


"the Custodian held 36,158,483 ounces of allocated gold in the form of London Good Delivery gold bars and 38 ounces of unallocated gold, excluding gold receivables" yet the GLD?s prospectus states "Gold bars allocated to the Trust in connection with the creation of a Basket may not meet the London Good Delivery Standards and, if a Basket is issued against such gold, the Trust may suffer a loss."

Given that all of the gold held by the Trust is in the form of allocated London Good Delivery gold bars except for gold receivables held in subcustodian vaults and only 38 ounces of the gold are unallocated, why should the Custodian of the gold, HSBC Bank USA, issue a disclaimer that the gold delivered to authorized participants may not be in the form of London Good Delivery bars? Furthermore, procedure for the creation of baskets of gold for share redemption deem that this gold must be drawn from unallocated accounts, which does not make sense if 100% of the Trust gold is to be allocated once it is in the possession of the Trust?s vault.

However, the lack of ability to confirm that any physical delivery of gold will be Good Delivery bars becomes even more suspicious if one reads the statement in the GLD 10-K?s filing that states,


"Unless otherwise agreed by the Custodian in writing, the only gold the Custodian will accept in physical form for credit to the Trust Unallocated Account is gold the Trustee has transferred from the Trust Allocated Account."

Thus if any gold transferred to the Trust Unallocated Account comes from the Trust Allocated Account and all gold held in the Trust Allocated Account is London Good Delivery gold bars, why is HSBC Bank, USA, unable to confirm that gold delivered via the Trust Unallocated Account are also London Good Delivery gold bars?

Finally, the procedural inconsistencies throughout the filings of GLD open up the possibility that Authorized Participants, specifically the LBMA market makers, possibly use GLD shares to manipulate gold prices in the futures markets as well. The GLD 10-K states that

"Certain Authorized Participants are expected to have the facility to participate directly in the gold bullion market and the gold futures market."



In July, 2009, Mr. Adrian Douglas of GATA stated that something seemed to be amiss regarding movements of physical gold in and out of the

New York COMEX markets:


"When averaged over a month, the "flow" of metal inventory [in and out of COMEX vaults] should be comparable to the delivery notices issued. This is just basic accounting. But I have observed that reconciliation is almost impossible with the COMEX data. The only explanation I could think of is that settlement of contracts must be bypassing the warehouse. But how could this be possible, as I thought all contracts had to be delivered via a COMEX registered warehouse?" As a possible explanation, Mr. Douglas noted that Exchange Rule 104.36, which governs Exchange of Futures for Physicals („EFP?) transactions on the COMEX

"refers to a „physical commodity? as one of the required components of an EFP transaction but also indicates that the physical commodity need only be substantially the economic equivalent of the futures contract being exchanged."

Exchange Rule 104.36 further states,


"The purpose of this Notice is to confirm that the Exchange would accept gold-backed exchange-traded funds („ETF?) shares as the physical commodity component for an EFP transaction involving COMEX gold futures contracts, provided that all elements of a bona fide EFP pursuant to Exchange Rule 104.36 are satisfied."

The inherent problem in allowing paper GLD contracts to be delivered as the long transaction necessary to balance every short position in gold assumed on the COMEX is that the poor business practices established by the GLD leaves the existence of the physical gold held in the GLD?s Trust in question. We believe that we have established reasonable doubt that the Custodian of the GLD holds all gold it claims in fully allocated and in Good Delivery bar form. Consequently, the delivery of paper contracts that represent the presence of questionable gold should not be allowed to offset short positions taken against gold in the COMEX until this can be proven. Furthermore, when GLD paper contracts are delivered to cancel out short positions assumed in the COMEX futures market, is the gold that represents the GLD paper contracts removed from the Trust?s warehouses as good business practices would dictate?

In our estimation, the US DOJ should carry out a detailed investigation to ensure that the GLD and SLV have not been invented to assist in price suppression schemes against gold and silver. Since the GLD prospectus states that the Custodian maintains a central London vault premise and the GLD 10-K states that all allocated gold is held there, the DOJ should arrange for periodic unannounced investigations of the London vault that does not allow for gold to be transferred into the Trust?s London vault if it is not already there. The DOJ should further not allow for the cover of "English law" to prevent its investigation, for if the existence of allocated Good Delivery bars that have no third party claim cannot be proved, then the GLD should be dissolved.

The GLD provides a bar list that lists each individual bar number, refiner?s name, bar gross weight, fine weight, and assay content. The DOJ should assign an independent auditor that can check the Custodian?s London vault premises, unannounced, as often and as many times as it desires during the course of any year to confirm that the GLD holds London Good Delivery bars, allocated specifically to the Trust and to no third party, and in the amount specified by the GLD?s business filings. If all the gold is allocated as the GLD claims, to only the Trust, then there should be no need to move gold in and out of the London vault premises except for

redemption of shares or as "gold" transferred to COMEX warehouses to satisfy long contracts that request delivery. Thus, the amount of gold held within the Trust?s vault should always equal the amount of money that the ETF has collected from investors, sans the gold receivable amount and the normally insignificant amount of unallocated ounces. This is a simple task to prove.

Either the gold is in the Trust?s vaults or it is not, either it is in Good Delivery bar form or it is not, and either it is allocated specifically to the GLD Trust or it is not.

We believe the DOJ needs to establish the credibility of the GLD by investigating the points we raise in this memo and verifying that none of our concerns are founded. The same concerns that apply to the GLD stated in this memo also apply to the silver ETF, the SLV, the custodian of which is JP Morgan. As the DOJ is already investigating JP Morgan for manipulation of the silver markets in the futures markets we believe it is essential for the DOJ to also vet the SLV for each of the problems noted in this memo as well.

Today in America, citizens have very little faith in the regulators to execute their job properly. Industry regulators seem to be more concerned with hobnobbing with and catering to the greed of industry executives rather than ensuring that consumers are properly protected against fraud and criminal activity. The recent BP/Transocean rig disaster in the Gulf of Mexico is another example in which a chronological timeline of events that led to this disaster revealed regulators to be worthless in protecting the consumer, the State, and our nation from an entirely preventable disaster and the greed of corporations. Fines are not the answer. Fines will not prevent a massive loss of incomes and wealth to workers affected by corporate negligence and willful deception. If industry executives are found guilty of criminal activity, extended jail time is the solution. And nothing short of a thorough investigation into the operation of the GLD and SLV to prove that none of the above concerns we stated are founded will restore America?s confidence in the financial industry.

Everything for everyone, nothing for us,



Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:49 | 1026634 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture


And there it is. If you can't understand that, you are beyond help.

Got it now all you PM trolls?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:57 | 1026949 william the bastard
william the bastard's picture

You read that in one minute.

Wow! You really are a Pig!


by Pladizow
on Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:48
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 17:22 | 1027429 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I have read everything on SLV and GLD from their inception. It is old news to me, but that's because I know what I'm talking about.

You, on the other hand, like Math Man, talk out of your ass. 

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 22:46 | 1028380 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

Friend, it is a total waste of effort to offer trolls information and facts. They dont operate that way.
However, since other and open-minded readers may benefit, I guess educational efforts are warranted. Keep it up.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:10 | 1026702 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Keypost! Keypost!




Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:15 | 1026729 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Wow, Pladizow, you really are a fucking idiot, aren't you.


A big collection of circumstanial 'what-ifs'....  DUDE THE FUCKING BARS ARE ALLOCATED AND AUDITED

They own the fucking shit.  END OF STORY.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:25 | 1026778 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Its only when a belief is threatened thet an individual becomes beligerent.

If what you spoke of was fact, you would not care what I or anybody else had to say.

Your tantrum does nothing but hurt your case and for you to read and ignore the above and then say so eloquently "DUDE THE FUCKING BARS ARE ALLOCATED" as if you have seen them all in person, just further belittles you.

I think you are on the wrong site, perhaps people will pay attention to your comments on You-Tube - Good Luck!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:25 | 1026781 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Ha Ha, what a rube...

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:32 | 1026820 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I guess the Federal court in Manhattan is a bunch of conspiracy theorists too, huh?

Go eat a bag of dicks, you fraud apologizing fuck.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:41 | 1026860 william the bastard
william the bastard's picture

The usual compelling comeback argument. Insults.

Tell me where you live so I can come fist fuck that asshole in the middle of your face.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:46 | 1026891 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Let's review your posts:

tm: insult + relevant link.

you: insult.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:52 | 1026920 Sands8oo
Sands8oo's picture

William and Meth Man -


Hope you enjoy the feeling of that GIANT PHYSICAL SILVER DILDO getting rammed up your assholes!

You two clowns have really gotten yourselves royally ass-fucked eh!?


Cheers you fuktards

Yours Truly,

Nathan Wind

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:55 | 1026939 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I found a picture of you online.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:07 | 1026991 william the bastard
william the bastard's picture

Go eat a bag of dicks, you fraud apologizing fuck.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:59 | 1027172 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Tmos left something on your chin again didn't he??  At least he didn't get you in the eye this time.. Your wife tells me that stings..

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 16:03 | 1027188 akak
akak's picture

William, is there going to be enough room in that bag for MathMan, Spalding, RoboTrader AND you?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 16:17 | 1027233 mogul rider
mogul rider's picture

Billy, I figured you'd show up again. Whaasup Blythe fuck you up again at the office and now you come over here to troll?

Well Tyler I would suggest certain individuals get detention for innapropriate behaviours.

Regardless of what any of us believe, rudeness is not a repsonse, it is an excuse for not having an answer.You Meth smoker, and the other dude need to understand something.

It is you wearing the tinfoil hat now - not us. Maybe that is the answer to the responses you guys give. It's OK though. Wearing a tinfoil hat doesn't mean you're a dick, it means you're lost.


Bye for now

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 18:26 | 1027667 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Yes, you should.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:08 | 1026999 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

T, it appears you have gotten Willie all hard about this. +1

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:32 | 1026827 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

You are a disgrace to this blog, and an asshole to boot.

You have problems connecting dots? Why are you a shill for the banksters?



Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:05 | 1026986 william the bastard
william the bastard's picture

Go eat a bag of dicks, you fraud apologizing fuck.


I found a picture of you online.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 18:30 | 1027687 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I'm not sure an idiotic troll like you can tell, but the context here is different from when I posted those things.  The above poster a, did not apologize for any fraud (as Math Man did), and b, didn't ask for people's home addresses so he could come beat them up/suck their dicks, like you did.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:36 | 1026837 redpill
redpill's picture

And Fort Knox is chock full of gold, right?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:12 | 1027016 Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture

Jeesh Plad, ever hear of a link?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 16:03 | 1027191 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

I know  - Sorry, I didnt have one.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:32 | 1027087 hbjork1
hbjork1's picture




Mon, 03/07/2011 - 22:47 | 1028383 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

It's becoming increasingly obvious GLD and SLV, supposedly created to facilitate trading PMs, were in fact created as a sneaky way to control the prices of said PMs.  

Interesting story here of how hard it was for one guy to get his silver delivered from the COMEX:



It took him the better part of a year just to get one 1000 oz bar.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:40 | 1026610 anarchitect
anarchitect's picture

Math Man, are you a buffoon? Not many can pony up 50K shares to take delivery, although there's speculation that some large players are doing it. My guess is that SLV is based on a fractional reserve. But it's moot point because my silver sits in places with much better governance.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 20:03 | 1027929 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Note to self, search the tank of Anarchitect's toilet.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:47 | 1026633 The Axe
The Axe's picture

All this is true, except for the part where I have to have 17,000,000 in SLV to do that exact transaction...cause you got to own 50k of SLV   

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 16:46 | 1027309 russki standart
russki standart's picture

Hmmm I see you are new to shilling for the JPM account, and your corporate masters sent you to work on the ZH account. There is one thing that you should know, that unlike shilling for kanye west or promoting global warming, many members of ZH are highly trained and skilled financial professionals, traders and/or extremely knowledgeable amateurs. So, as a starting suggestion, look up the word ARBITRAGE and ask see if you can figure out why someone would not somehow sell PSLV and buy SLV and profit from the convergence, unless something was not right. My suggestion, STFU and look for something easier to shill, like Obama means Hope and Change.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 18:02 | 1027586 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

there's a reason that every trader in the world isn't doing that exact trade: short PSLV, long SLV:  because they cannot - there's no PSLV borrow available.


thus, people draw incorrect conclusions, using poorly backed deductive reasoning, such as: "see if you can figure out why somone would not sell PSLV and buy SLV unless something was not right"

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 21:10 | 1028161 russki standart
russki standart's picture


It is possible that the amateurs are buying  PSLV at a premium relative to SLV because they are dumb and are not aware of any other trading vehicles. I also have not tried to sell short PSLV  so I do not know if there is no stock to borrow available. I do believe, however, there is other ways to structure a convergence play, I just do not have the time nor the inclination to try to figure it out. I respect your objection but I was trying to make a wider point, that physical silver is in shortage.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 22:47 | 1028382 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

russki - I don't mean to be harsh, but I definitely think that it is indeed a case of dumb, gullible, misled retail money buying PSLV, and there's nothing anyone can do about it to "correct" it or arb the mispricing. (MathMan is right about that)

I have indeed tried to short PSLV - no borrow.  And, as you know, no creation mechanism.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 17:43 | 1027503 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

from the Buy side.. I would say that the only real problem I found (other than trusting someone else with large sums of money) is how do you take delivery if that is what you would like to do?


moreover, if the basket is multi-national (which it reads as) and some jurisdictions suffer confiscation.. are all holders being taxed equally? is it an equitable loss suffered by all? or more so those who bought and are domiciled in said jurisdictions where the confiscations occurred?


Plainly, unless it is in your hands.. unless you control a thing you do not own a thing.


From a risk assessment perspective… of locals where the physical is held blended with how many of those locals would follow suit if America did confiscate for a fourth time based on potential earnings because of numbers of shares held in the American Jurisdiction.


Plainly why would little countries not profit from confiscation, if America confiscates PM’s and most of the shares held are by American Nationals?


Once again, I appreciate you trying to keep a smile in the face of the Great American Print Off… but in reality the World is teetering on the brink of collapse because of the amount of debt held.. the world is top heavy with debt, that debt is printed out of thin air and imagined and then heaped onto the working class.. at some point the idiot sheep will wake up and when they do.. I don’t want my gold half way around the world in a country that will confiscate American holdings based on America confiscating holdings.


This is my personal opinion and I have been wrong before, good luck and God Bless you in your choices.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 18:30 | 1027664 SRV - ES339
SRV - ES339's picture

A few facts on the subject, if you don't mind... "Meth Man" (wild thread)

Sprotts Trust (it is not a fund) has 100% of the "initial offering" in bullion. It's stored at the Canadian Mint (not in London controlled by JP Morgue), with a strong audit system (Mark Faber is involved... sorry no detail on this).

The Trust trades as a stock (as you know) and the premium is a function of the market... clearly buyers are willing to pay a 20% premium to get a rock solid (which it is) silver investment. The premium goes to the owner of the stock purchased (and does not go to Sprott) and as a result stock holders have realized the gain in spot, plus the incredible 20% premium (as an investor since inception... thank you Eric) buyers are lining up to pay, since the Trust was introduced.

A couple of points to remember... there is a minimum size (about $300K at this price), and control costs involved in taking possession (to maintain the bullet proof traceability documentation they have... controlling bullion correctly is expensive) are significant (normal). Finally, you get a spot equivalent in bullion so you lose the premium if you take possession (they didn't create the trust to become a Ag bullion dealer), which obviously keeps physical withdrawal to a minimum.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:25 | 1026773 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

...most who invest in PSLV don't necessarily know that there is a a super-high premium. 


I do, and I do. Reason: 401K account. Easy to access. More or less secure. And I trust PSLV more than the others, though I also have some CEF.


And at the time I invested in it, the premium for PSLV was around 6% as I recall.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 22:40 | 1028362 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Take a look at the premiums people are paying on ebay... when silver was $33 an oz people were paying $3800 for a 100 oz bar.  Pretty hefty premium...

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 22:49 | 1028386 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

That ain't so!

Obviously physical coins aren't selling for a 20% premium.

Check out the already closed auctions for American Silver Eagles:

Tue, 03/08/2011 - 08:31 | 1029084 barkingbill
barkingbill's picture

but there is a 10% premium which is still alot. at apmex silver one ounce coins are going for more than $40

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:21 | 1026545 covert
covert's picture

silver is a wonderful place for any investor to begin


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:34 | 1026582 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Math Man
I like your gritty hardball stance for some counter-intuitive perspective but regards your adoration of SLV you're talking absolute bollocks.
Have you even read their prospectus???
Nothing looks more like you're buying a whole lot of nothing than SLV's prospectus, a Bernie Madoff fund wouldn't be so bold or brazen telling you you're buying an empty shell.
Even the Silver in SLV does not have to be audited by its agents (JP Morgan, Blackrock etc). For all anyone knows it could be aluminium wrapped turds and SLV will not be held accountable. Seriously.
SLV stinks. Period

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:18 | 1026746 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

but surely you realize that PSLV's prospectus has the SAME concerns, right?  Seriously - take 15 minutes to read the risks pages in PSLV's prospectus.

they are standard disclaimers, common to both PSLV and SLV. 

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:22 | 1026763 Math Man
Math Man's picture

I've read the SLV and GLD prospecutus and I've read thousands of others...

Have you read any other prospectus besides the one for SLV? 

The fucking morons who try to point to holes in it are fucking morons who have most likely never read a prospectus in their life.

Big suprise that most of the stories about the problems w/ the SLV prospecuts are posted on websites selling physical silver.

SLV has been taking share from these guys... and they don't like it, so they attack it.  

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:47 | 1027138 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

from the Buy side.. I would say that the only real(s) problem I found (other than trusting someone else with large sums of money) is how do you take delivery if that is what you would like to do?


moreover, if the basket is multi-national (which it reads as) and some jurisdictions suffer confiscation.. are all holders being taxed equally? is it an equitable loss suffered by all? or more so those who bought and are domiciled in said jurisdictions where the confiscations occurred?


Plainly, unless it is in your hands.. unless you control a thing you do not own a thing.


From a risk assessment perspective… of locals where the physical is held blended with how many of those locals would follow suit if America did confiscate for a fourth time based on potential earnings because of numbers of shares held in the American Jurisdiction.


Plainly why would little countries not profit from confiscation, if America confiscates PM’s and most of the shares held are by American Nationals?


Once again, I appreciate you trying to keep a smile in the face of the Great American Print Off… but in reality the World is teetering on the brink of collapse because of the amount of debt held.. the world is top heavy with debt, that debt is printed out of thin air and imagined and then heaped onto the working class.. at some point the idiot sheep will wake up and when they do.. I don’t want my gold half way around the world in a country that will confiscate American holdings based on America confiscating holdings.


This is my personal opinion and I have been wrong before, good luck and God Bless you in your choices.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:33 | 1026585 Triggernometry
Triggernometry's picture

Let me hear your body talk...

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:35 | 1026829 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture


let's get physical, physical...

then we won't hafta listen to, listen to...

this bullshit, bull_shit...

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:03 | 1026976 JoeSexPack
JoeSexPack's picture

APMEX down to about 240 100 oz silver bars, & dropping fast:

Keep your eyes here, folks, for a good indicator of investor demand for Ag as many prefer 100 oz bars.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:43 | 1026367 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

"Manipulate until the end".  JPM motto.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:13 | 1026509 topshelfstuff
topshelfstuff's picture

Yes, that's for sure, and both ways...keep in mind they have their Silver Short well Hedged by their Long [record setting Highs] Copper. Last I knew it was somehere in the 80-90% of outstanding contracts Long

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:00 | 1026667 Don Birnam
Don Birnam's picture

Not a particularly good day for John Pierpont; both trades are running firmly against them this session: Copper down 3.4%; silver at 36.11...


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:21 | 1026544 Bob
Bob's picture

Apparently.  It's interesting that silver and oil are being pushed back, yet TZA is up 2.25%.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:03 | 1026677 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Ode à Blythe Masters

Vierge glacée venue de la froide Albion
Telle Elizabeth qui tenait l'Angleterre
En écumant les océans avec ses corsaires
Tes dévots récoltent nos moissons

- C'est, dis-tu, que l'on paie pour notre maladresse
Mais tes capiteux poisons, moderne Lucrèce
Que tu concoctes en secret détruisent les nations
Et laissent sur le carreau des gens par millions

J'aime t'imaginer en Comtesse Batory
Ton petit corps gracile immergé à demi
Dans le sang répandu des vierges au chômage

A moins qu'il ne faille voir dans tes yeux
Une Jézabel revenue du fond des âges
Pour nous tuer tous avec des emprunts vicieux...


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:43 | 1026370 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

go figure

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:44 | 1026372 Ancona
Ancona's picture

Long physical. True that.

There are too many pieces of invisible silver floating around in various ETF's.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:43 | 1026373 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Where is MethMan to tell us Silver is going to $20 in a few weeks? Only then will I believe this is an honest to goodness ZH PM thread.

MethMan brings credibility to the PM realists.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:45 | 1026385 Harmonious_Diss...
Harmonious_Dissonance's picture

He is racing to dump GEN hand over fist whist simultaneously digging up silver bars behind his beach house for $5 an ounce. His Ferrari truck is full of the stuff.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:51 | 1027161 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

If silver hits $20 an OZ... I will be happy to see all of you with large trucks loading up.


Silver will see $100 plus an OZ and Gold (rust or no rust) will see $2,000...


But please have some guns and ammo and food and medicine and other stuff as well as pm's.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:45 | 1026380 letsgetreadytorumble
letsgetreadytorumble's picture

100 more buffallo's coming into my herd!!!   I'll keep on buying physical till the cows come home!!!!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:47 | 1026387 Franken_Stein
Franken_Stein's picture

Join Max Keiser's silver liberation army !

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:50 | 1026410 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Only if I can wear a cool uniform.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:53 | 1026421 Harmonious_Diss...
Harmonious_Dissonance's picture

You sure CAN!! Check it out:

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:09 | 1026489 Windemup
Windemup's picture

Enough of the hand waving alerady.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:09 | 1026492 6_7_42
6_7_42's picture

++pro_good to the Gorn

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:46 | 1026390 MGA_1
MGA_1's picture

lol - like the post.  The first real skirmish in the battle of paper money vs. physical assets?


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:48 | 1026393 watchingdogma
watchingdogma's picture

How much physical is enough?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:49 | 1026407 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

The question can be answered with the answer to the question of, "How much POMO is enough."

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:53 | 1026429 Backspin
Backspin's picture

Think about what you want it for.

If you want to flip it for a profit, it's up to you how much.

If you want to have, say, three months worth of survival value, consider a few ounces to be worth a trip to the grocery store, then calculate how many ounces you will need.

If you want to retire off your hoard, well, do the math.

Best of luck!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:58 | 1026445 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

I'm going with 50% of my net worth.  The rest in miners and shorting financials and bonds.  But I'm just a truck driver.  I was smarter when I planted trees.  As the dollar collapse gets closer, I will be selling miners to buy more silver maple leafs.  

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:03 | 1026465 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

Anyone know of some major dealers who sell partial ounces of silver?  Or do 100 oz bars make more sense, being cheaper and could be turned into coins when the dollar is history?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:18 | 1026523 SoCalTrader
SoCalTrader's picture

100 oz Bars from well-known refiners are good pick. My pick is 50/50 sovereign bullion coins vs. Bars in terms of ounces. Just my 2 cents.

Email me if you want some info, I can find 1/2 oz. of Silver or large bars for ya.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:20 | 1026535 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

If you want partial silver ounces, the cheapest way to do it is to buy $100 Face Value bags of dimes and quarters.   Of course if you have enough lucre laying around, feel free to inflate those face value bags to whatever (100,250,500,1000)


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:34 | 1027083 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture



US Minted Silver Coins seem to be coming up roses roses.  Very close to anyone's interpretation of the US Constitutional meaning of "money" i would think.  personally. 

dime = .07 oz. Q = .18 oz. Half Dol. = .36 oz, where "oz" means troy ounces, pure silver, in each coin, which is a 90% silver alloy w/ 10% pure copper.

the "old" Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars are the same 90% silver/copper alloy and contain .77 oz. pure silver per coin. 

This "list" is not exhaustive. 

listen: all these US Coins are "money" and "bullion".  all bullion is not "US Money", however.  i know:  picky-picky, picky...

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:26 | 1026559 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

IMHO, it depends on what purpose you want the metal to serve. If you just want to transport wealth through this insane 'monetary collapse wormhole', then the 100 oz. bars make sense. If you're looking to actually use the metal in exchange for goods or services during the trip through the wormhole, or if the trip ends up in a shittier place than here and now....then the bullion rounds and 90% junk coins make sense. I'd stay away from all the numismatic 'first strike' or 'MS graded' stuff. In a pure survival scenario, I doubt many folks are going to care about numismatic premiums.

As always, your mileage may vary, and a good mix of the above is probably the way to go. Think of it as the sound money version of 'staying diversified'. LOL


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:35 | 1026594 SoCalTrader
SoCalTrader's picture

real talk -- i don't touch numismatic MS stuff with a 10 foot pole. Strictly bullion... I'm personally not a big fan of the 90% either. Just not my style. I own a little, but i'm probably not buying any more.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:45 | 1027134 ATM
ATM's picture

I felt much the same way but I've been adding the pre-64 stuff for one specific reason. It is guaranteed to be recognizable. I've got 100oz bars, 10oz bars, 5oz bars, 1oz bars and rounds but if I need to trade for something those 90% silver Washington quarters I've been stacking up have an advantage - people will know what they are, will know they have value and will come out of the woodwork from others. I want to have a good supply of them as insurance.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:10 | 1026491 watchingdogma
watchingdogma's picture

I went a little nuts - I'm 80% physical AG - and half my other assets are GDX/GDXJ.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:20 | 1026532 SoCalTrader
SoCalTrader's picture

not nuts -- good stuff

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:44 | 1027129 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture


hi, watchingdoglips!  it looks like you mighta dropped your bong over there by the empty frosted oatmeal raisin cookie package and the juicyjuice...

here.  let me give you a hand.  ...altho iyam not from the goobermint, 4 sure!  lol---you are zeroHedge certifiable:  fiscally sound!


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:14 | 1026513 internethobo
internethobo's picture

N+1 is enough...

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:48 | 1026398 superuser
superuser's picture

Given the way ETFs and Comex prices are being manipulated, it seems that only physical trusts like PSLV provide "true" Ag price discovery (ignoring costs to redeem, transport, store, etc.).

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:25 | 1027062 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:50 | 1026400 Dane Bramage
Dane Bramage's picture

Uh oh... reality is seeping in a bit at a time.  This is gonna get good.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:48 | 1026401 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Silver is not currently in short supply in India.

last visit to dealer, he said he had spent the last three days doing valuations of silverware people were bringing at record rates. 

Bullion in quantity was also not an issue. The price in India is a loose correlation, but bullion dealers are currently able to provide in volume. This spike has not tightened supplies like last time, yet.

Perhaps lot's of delivery taken in advance of wedding season, plus expected rise.


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:06 | 1026482 Math Man
Math Man's picture

The shortages have always been a perception issue...  the reality is that 10k+ tons are held at SLV and we only actually use 50% of it.

Without idiots hoarding it, silver is in a massive situation of over supply.

$20 bucks by the summer...  it only costs $5 bucks to get it out the ground.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:12 | 1026500 JonNadler
JonNadler's picture

And SLV has every ounce they claim they have and silver only costs 5 to get it out of the ground so  a fair value would be what Meth? 6.50 by my calculations?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:17 | 1026522 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Any body who wants to can go to the iShares website and print out the 10 thousand page list of the every bar with its serial number.


SLV has the silver.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:22 | 1026546 dow2000
dow2000's picture

Yeah and a pair of Nike's cost $2 bucks to make, what's your fucking point jerkoff?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:23 | 1026550 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Unallocated bars, in a london vault. Read the print Troll.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:30 | 1026572 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Sorry dude, but they are allocated.

Check out the list.

346 million allocated ounces as of 3/4/11.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:30 | 1026577 Harmonious_Diss...
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:37 | 1026598 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

The iShares are backed by silver, identified by the custodian's books in allocated and unallocated accounts on behalf of the trust and held by the custodian in England and other locations that may be authorized in the future.

From page 2.

Now will you stop parading about your lies?

Oh, and also from the prospectus (page 17):

(Unallocated accounts) The client is an unsecured creditor.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:02 | 1026670 william the bastard
william the bastard's picture

The open interest on PSLV is nowhere near that of SLV.

AGQ's open interest is significantly greater than PSLV. Now tell me, what is AGQ's premium over phy silver?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:20 | 1026756 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

the amount kept in unallocated accounts is de minimus - just enough to pay expenses.

that's in the prospectus to - free for all to read.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:44 | 1026881 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

i did the work for you:


"at the end of each business day there can be in the trust account no more than 1100 ounces of silver in unallocated form."

so you can cross another worry off your list.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:28 | 1026794 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Dip shit Sean, yes they can be held in unallocated accounts, but the unallocated accounts are limited to 1100 ounces

"The custodian may hold silver for the account of the trust on an unallocated basis. However, the custodian must take reasonable action to minimize the amount of bullion in the trust’s account that is on an unallocated basis, and the custodian must allocate silver bars to the account of the trust so that no more than 1100 ounces of silver are held for the trust’s account on an unallocated basis at the end of each business day of the custodian."


There are 346mm allocated ounces in SLV.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:50 | 1026909 akak
akak's picture

Just what is your agenda here in your fervent and rabid defense of SLV?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:04 | 1026983 Math Man
Math Man's picture

I don't want you retail idiot lemmings to lose even more money with PSLV than you are going to with silver...



Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:10 | 1027008 akak
akak's picture

Your self-declared altruistic motives are truly touching.

However, it is obvious that you are a paid troll sent here to defend a corrupt and unsustainable Ponzi scheme that would, and will, put Bernie Madoff to shame.  So I can only conclude by asking you to please go to Hell, you shameless lying sack of shit.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 20:35 | 1028036 JonNadler
JonNadler's picture
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 16:24 | 1027253 mogul rider
mogul rider's picture

So Meth Man, since you are hte expert here, why not post a picture inside the vault of the "allocated silver" you swear is there.

We are not retail Mr. dickus,

I do not believe for one moment that the silver is there.

If SLV has it then show a fucking video which can be audited by an appropriate firm and verified. You saying there is silver is jack shit.Prove it or shut up


move on troll boy

Tue, 03/08/2011 - 01:37 | 1028814 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Math guy -- a couple of posts back you slipped and referred to SLV as "we".

"the reality is that 10k+ tons are held at SLV and we only actually use 50% of it."

So I guess it's not surprising that you would be here defending SLV.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:07 | 1026994 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

Akak- I think you were talking to MathMan, but I"ll answer that, because i "waste" a tremendous amount of time trying to answer concerns about SLV, despite the fact that I don't work for Blackrock, Barclays, JPM, GS, etc.

My agenda is to help the poor rubes who are being convinced to buy PSLV at a 20% premium when there is little/no reason to do so.  It's that simple.  So that they don't wake up one morning down 15% when the price of silver is unchanged because Sprott did a PSLV secondary.

The best part is that we already saw this movie with PHYS last year - it soared to a 20% premium, which was soley a result of ignorant (retail) demand (orginating from internet lies slamming GLD), lack of a share creation arb mechanism, and lack of stock borrow to short PHYS and get the price back near NAV.  PSLV is the same story. 

If you're buying PSLV, in addition to making a bet on the price of silver, you're also betting that there will be a continued supply of gullible victims willing to take the shares off your hands at a sufficient premium, and also that Sprott won't do a secondary, providing natural supply and crushing the premium.  Perhaps you want to make that bet -but you should be aware of what you're betting on.  Most people are not.

and, oh - read the PSLV prospectus - it is just as "alarming" as the SLV prospectus.  and 100 pages longer.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 15:17 | 1027030 Harmonious_Diss...
Harmonious_Dissonance's picture

Not my problem. Mine is buried in my backyard. Hording, Bitchez!

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:57 | 1026947 dumpster
dumpster's picture

Math man is  a troll,,, no more no less,

well maybe less,,, He reads a script each morning repeating the same stuff,  Paste , copy, off his e-mail site,

He adds his own words with curse ,

Probably a young diaper mouth,  living from hand to mouth and crotch,

Is the lowest of life.  


but his pay from trolling keeps his taco , Twinkies life style alive,

folks all his message is is warmed over email copy,

He posts during certain time periods ,

Between visiting the unemployment line to picking up his unemployment check,

He was let go from a serving job at MacDonald's. 

He reads macdonald menus looking for a 99cent taco,

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:57 | 1026951 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

"at the end of the day"- not all day, not 24 hours a day, but for one small moment in time. What part of that do you not understand? SLV is going down.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:25 | 1026556 iDealMeat
iDealMeat's picture

Are you talking about printing some paper with some numbers on it?

How's that working out for the Fed?

In any event, I really, REALLY, hope you're right..  If Silver is ever back in the

20's I'll get a bigger truck..


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:40 | 1026609 CynicLaureate
CynicLaureate's picture

+80,000 GVW

Yeah trucks!


Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:28 | 1026564 Harmonious_Diss...
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:30 | 1026573 JonNadler
JonNadler's picture

SLV has the silver.


you promise Meth? you really, really promise? Don't read the prospectus then just take your word? OK you sound intelligent enough

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 13:15 | 1026515 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Since it's leveraged 100 to 1, that makes .1 tons. They have silver until London says no. Why are you still trolling here? 

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 14:33 | 1026823 goldfreak
goldfreak's picture

IS Math Man Jon Nadler?

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 17:25 | 1027431 greenbear
greenbear's picture

"The shortages have always been a perception issue...  the reality is that 10k+ tons are held at SLV and we only actually use 50% of it."

I didn't know you actually admit you are a JPM employee.

"Without idiots hoarding it, silver is in a massive situation of over supply."

Silver hoarding idiots sucking up this "massive over supply" must drive you to drink! 

"$20 bucks by the summer..."

I seriously doubt it but I do hope it dips all the way down to $20 so even more of the thousands of honest working people who just found out about silver can get in before it explodes into the triple digits and then to the moon.  



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