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Ummm...so what is the bullish thesis...anyone...Beuller....Beuller....?
If the Pu is on the ground, then it can't be in the reactor! We're saved!
Nice...right. Because plutonium in a broken reactor is bad, bad mojo. But that is only half of the bullish case.
Plutonium on the ground is better...because...ummm...because...???
I think we will start seeing stories about its nutritional value.
Because it is already priced in... ;-)
Waiting patiently for some official to suggest we should just push this entire stinking mess into the sea and let the fish deal with it. After all, it's such a small nuclear plant and such a big ocean.
Somewhere over the neutron beam rainbow
Way up high
There's a land that I heard of that's free of plutonium
Once in a lullaby.
I'm waiting for "glow in the dark" (GITD) sushi to become a Japanese consumer fad...
Shorting some now, short some later... BUT!
Note that this coincides exactly with the OSE raising their margin almost 4 times...
(Directly from IBKR.)
Careful guys, time to manage your margins carefully. Good luck!
To OSE.JPN,TSEJ traders:
Mon Mar 28 03:02:42 2011 EST
Further to our bulletin sent last week, please note that N225 contracts on Osaka Securities Exchange (OSE.JPN) will have margin significantly increased with SPAN margin parameters increased from JPY 270,000 / contract to JPY 990,000 / contract. TOPX contracts on Tokyo Stock Exchange (TSEJ) will have SPAN margin parameters increased from JPY195,000 / contract to JPY690,000/contract. The changes are expected to be effective in customer accounts from tomorrow's open (29 Mar 11). As such please manage your positions accordingly. For details regarding the increase, please refer to the following links from OSE.JPN and Japan Securities Clearing Corporation (JSCC) website:
I'm just going to jump in here with a little tidbit from the wikipedia. This information can also be validated on FAS.
The result was that in the Fat Man bomb, about 1 kilogram (2.2 lb) of the 6.2 kilograms (14 lb) of plutonium in the pit (about 17%) fissioned.
This means that from that detonation alone, 4kg(8.8lbs) of plutonium were NOT fissioned and were released into the atmosphere. Should we all run for the hills because of this OMFG PLUTONIUM?!@?@E! from 65 years ago?
So how many kilograms of the stuff are there at Fukushima, I wonder? 40 years of spent fuel rods, some new(ish) MOX fuel at Reactor 3... Obviously, not all the stuff at Fukushima is in harms way. But it looks like none of the spent fuel pools in reactors 1 to 4 are doing their job and keeping their rods chilled.
I'm not sure I'd advocate running to the hills anyway - last I heard, that wouldn't protect you from plutonium.
CD, the fish haven't a chance...
The beast, the beast, the beast from Fukushima.
When this finally ends months from now that is how they'll end it. It will all go into the sea. Maybe they'll spray a little corexit on it just to be safe.
Months doubtful, years probably
Won't rain wash that soil contamination out to sea? However, tuna and other fish with any 'Pu' smell should be discarded.
its a nutritional building block for the degradation of DNA and ultimate reversion back to reptilian DNA. yes...we are all cold-blooded lizards!!
Shit just got real is correct. May I suggest a cocktail?
Gin-Cocktail für Gin-Liebhaber. Danke FALK !!!
Alle Zutaten mit Eiswürfeln nacheinander in das Mixgals füllen, kurz shaken und in das Gästeglas abseihen. Fertig
Dekoration : Zitronenscheibe
Vorsicht: explosiv und süchtig machend
Dieses Rezept wurde eingegeben vom Community-Member whitewolion.
Ingredients:1oz Rasberry Vodka .5oz Triple Sec 1oz Apple Pucker Pineapple Juice 7up Orange Peel,or Lemon Peel
Directions:Mix vodka, triple sec, apple pucker, and pineapple to a martini shaker with ice. Shake thoroughly and strain into a chilled martini glass. Top with a splash of 7up, and garnish with an orange or lemon twist.
i liked the "Wodka"! +W.
the second version seems pretty sweet.
i like first one. sent it to batmanke and if he puts in in the "punchbowl" there will be no dips for a week!
That's kickin' it old skool, with sauerbraten and wienerschnitzel.
but add a couple of drops of fluoroceine -- and drink under a blacklight?
Schmeckts gut! Aber ohne Eis für mich :)
Is Plutonium worse than Cesium ? Was it Plutonium that made things worse at Chernobyl ? Anybody here know ?
Plutonium is the most deadly material known to man, with an LD 50 (ie the dose at which half of the afflicted subjects die) at 10 NANOGRAMS/kilogram. Yes, a single, nigh microscopic spec of this stuff will kill you if you inhale it.
Correct. A microscopic speck. Not "one atom".
Keep looking for pubic hairs to split, dickface.
You really are a complete idiot, aren't you? Not an ordinary half-assed idiot, but one who has mastered the full depth and breath of idiocy. Kudos, idiot. :-)
not even CLOSE to correct.
The LD50 that cliff claven cites is derived from a zero-dimensional model where someone takes the total rad count from a chunk of Pu in terms of becquerels/gram and then puts that on a chart of whole-body REM dosage and sees where the LD50 is, as if every single becquerel of radiation from every single atom of Pu is absorbed in a whole-body manner.
It isn't even vaguely close to correct.
Ok, both of you need to produce some sources to back up your claims.
Or we can just agree that it's NASTY FUCKING SHIT THAT YOU WANT TO STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM?
I am Chumbawamba.
Excuse me, that should be NASTY FUCKING SHIT FROM WHICH YOU WANT TO STAY THE HELL AWAY.
I should've known better.
I already advised people to google Plutonium.
Wiki has a toxicity section...there's another link downthread.
If you'd like, you may go to http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-156042.html
And read about how the 10 ng/kg LD50 was "concocted"
Producing sources is for people who make outrageous claims, not for people like me who state shit so ubiquitous that you have to be intentionally obtuse not to see it.
Seriously, man, suppose I didn't know what Pu's toxicity was and I wanted to verify Cliff's claim for myself (as you suggest you wish to do). Is it really that hard to use that google toolbar, type plutonium, and press enter and see where it leads me?
If you just do that, check facts for yourself (teach a man to fish), you will pretty quickly realize that what I speak is the truth.
Pu is nasty, sure...but the other byproducts are far worse in terms of their impact to humans and their dispersion and uptake characteristics. Your body LIKES I131 and Cs137, Pu it doesn't really.
"Pu is nasty, sure...but the other byproducts are far worse in terms of their impact to humans and their dispersion and uptake characteristics. Your body LIKES I131 and Cs137, Pu it doesn't really."
Yes, this is the contribution that you COULD be making to this discussion. That while Pu is agreeably nasty, Cs poses a greater threat to humans offsite due to its bioavailability and the potential for dispersion over a much wider area. So far as this layman can see, to date this accident lacks the large vertical lift component that would be required to see widespread dispersal of Pu.
I am unclear as to the potential for seaborne dispersion of Pu, perhaps you have a thought on this possibility?
The thought of Cs137 entering the world's food supply in a substantial way due to this CF is much more concerning to me than the Pu deposited on site.
This is the contribution I have been making since day 1 of OMFG PLUTONIUM GTFO RUN FOR THE HILLS!@#
Trav has been saying practically the same shit.
But it doesn't jive with OMFG RUN FOR THE HILLS PLUTONIUM IS COMING!#!@
Therefore, we get junked for speaking the truth.
I think the signal to noise level was likely too low.
He gets junked for yelling and insulting anyone and everyone he talks to. He calls people stupid for posting numbers that exist in the literature, rather than simply calmly explaining the problem with them.
But all this back and forth over the toxicity of Pu misses the main point- AT LEAST ONE REACTOR HAS A HOLE IN IT.
If that doesn't say head for the hills (those in Japan), I don't know what does.
Exactly. If we are to be concerned with this matter at all, we should be sifting through the red herrings, disinformation, and noise. We should be finding facts which matter, not arguing, orgying in fear, or seeking affirmation of our end of the world bias.
Mankind survived through all the atmospheric nuclear testing in the 40s-60s, Chernobyl, and all the undisclosed military radiological accidents (some of which are arguably worse than Chernobyl). We will survive through this, too.
I have noticed a pattern. You run around screaming that people are wrong, and then you fail to provide the correct numbers.
This is the behavior of a douchebag. Perhaps you should provide some numbers of your own, eh?
use teh google, Cliff.
BTW, it was your claim. You didn't fact check it.
Even when asked for a cite, you provided a google which spits out results that REFUTE your claim.
You didn't even bother to read your own citations; we in the debate industry use a technical term for people like you: "asshat."
You are quite lucky ZH isn't populated with other rationals...another forum I frequent had a guy who used to do exactly what you do, make claims, get refuted, post a google with cites he never read. He was eventually pilloried by everybody as a fool, a trait you two share.
On ZH you can get away with "BUY PMs LOOK OVER THERE" and nobody seems to notice.
Yes, we know Trav. There is no problem. No reason to panic. Everyone is safe. Go back inside and watch teevee. All ZHers don't back their claims. All is well.
Uhh, you sidestepped the request for numbers. Remember how you yelled at me for doing that? Now yell at yourself in the same manner, hypocrite.
Also, nothing in that Google search refuted anything I said. Unless you are taking the comments of two random wiki contributors in a talk page as fact.
You do understand that you need to SUPPORT a claim, right?
Nobody knows the real LD50 for Pu because it hasn't been studied. However, it is clearly far higher than 10ng which was sourced via the manner I said it was. And teh google you pulled demonstrated that, if you had read it.
There are some updated estimates posted downthread from some of the places I suggested you look.
So, you've fallen on your face again; aren't you getting tired of that?
You, like Red Neck, don't know what that last sentence of yours means.
The real meaning is found in the situation where you thought that 500 milligrams was the same as 500 grams.
But Trav, you didn't support your claim. You just tell people to google it.
You do contribute to this board, and I'm not one of those who wants you to go away. But if you presented your claims rationally and calmly, with sources, I guarantee most people would listen to what you had to say. Instead you just absolutely lose it and scream insults like you're frothing from the mouth.
Seriously, you're gonna give yourself a coronary. That whole shouting match debacle yesterday (or whenever it was) between you and tmosley etc. would have been easily avoided if you had begun with a nice, calm, rational assessment, instead of insulting TD on his own blog.
Same thing here. If you had just started by saying: "Actually, the lethality of Pu is debatable, and the dangers presented by Ce-137 (and so on) are much more serious, since the body mistakes them for beneficial elements. See this: (link)." ...had you done that, people would've been downright appreciative. I would've been.
But instead you had to be a dick. That's not to say people aren't dicks to you too, obviously, but if you'd just be the bigger man instead of acting like a demeaning egomaniacal cockgobbler, then peace and harmony would rule the land, and many more people would listen to you. It's not about trying to be popular - it's about getting your point across, and about basic human decency.
I was agreeing to the "speck" as opposed to "one atom". As for the LD50, I've always associated that with chemical toxicity rather than radiological effect. I suspect any citation of LD50 for Plutonium in humans would be conjectural. Perhaps the bad old Soviet did controlled experiments, but I doubt it.
Saw that LD50 before tmosley, terrible stuff. Worst I have seen (previous) was Oxymetazoline HCl, which was 0.68 mg per kg. Pu is really terrible stuff.
Let's just hope that the Pu that was found was from the spent rods, and not from a continuing fission reaction within the core, or even worse, a restarted one in the spent fuel pools.
no, plutonium is NOT the most deadly material known to man.
I would also like a CITE for your LD50 of 10 nanograms/kg.
You are a fucking fool, mosely...is there ANYTHING which you actually KNOW? Fucking Cliff Claven
Recent research with one of the least radioactive isotopes of plutonium (plutonium-242, which has a half-life of 376,000 years) indicates that plutonium in the body may contribute to the development of tumors. In general, however, plutonium isotopic mixtures that are commonly encountered in the nuclear fuel cycle, nuclear weapons programs, or thermoelectric generator applications exhibit much higher radiological toxicity than chemical toxicity.
The risk and toxicity of NATURALLY OCCURING Plutonium oxide, is small - plutonium isotopes from "thermo-electric generator applications" (like Fukushima) have additional risks. In my Nuclear Physics class (many years ago) it was the CHEMICAL toxicity of Plutonium (not Plutonium oxide) that was off the chart, the radiation problems were minor compared to it.
Defensive much? I thought all was well, and that there would be no contamination, and that this certainly was no Chernobyl?
I guess holes in the reactor don't count unless you say they do.
Get the fuck out of here before you embarrass yourself some more you racist shit.
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