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PM Selloff Reason: CME To Raise Margin Requirements For Silver From $5,000 To $6,500

Tyler Durden's picture


And if that doesn't work, there is always confiscation.

"CME confirmed silver margins raised from $5000 to $6500 (30%) effective 11/10 settl - no other metals effected"

Presumably, this affects the maintenance margin. And is a lovely way to kill paper longs.... but not shorts, of course.

This is also the last remaining self-regulating way for the market to tell the genocidal lunatic in the Eccles building to go fornicate himself, and his excess liquidity.


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Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:25 | 713135 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Hmmmm....I didn't buy on margin.  Guess it's time to dip into the old Federal Reserve Note pile o' mine and gets me some more. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:38 | 713224 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

As I mentioned on a couple of other threads, APMEX is out of 100 oz silver bars for immediate delivery. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:56 | 713351 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

I purchased a couple of the kilo coins a few weeks back, but then last week had to resort to lots of 10 oz coins, splashed with assorted 1 oz coins.  Never did get the bars for silver, but Gold was nice to buy that way back in the $750's.  I miss those days.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:28 | 713886 akat
akat's picture

 I bought a couple of gold bars at the $400 area about 5 years ago.  I wish I had bought 25 instead.  With this crisis looking like it is just beginning gold may go to $5000 an ounce.  Of course that would be in those inflationless dollar Gentle Ben is printing by the carload(no), helicopterload(no), boatload(no), 747load(no), aircraftcarrierload(about right if a little smallish).

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:28 | 713887 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Do they call you Dick for short, but not for long?



Tue, 11/09/2010 - 21:25 | 714536 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

Well Penis Brain would be another name for Richard "Dick" Head...

No offense intended, Dr. Dick...

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:03 | 714039 DosZap
DosZap's picture


"Gold was nice to buy that way back in the $750's.  I miss those days."

Now be honest, you were thinking $750!!!!!!!!!!!!!, back then,NOW WE miss those days...not @$750.00.........LOL

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:09 | 714059 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Not on the website.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:33 | 714375 traderjoe
Tue, 11/09/2010 - 22:04 | 714657 DosZap
DosZap's picture


sorry bro,last I checked before coming here, they had a few of different types.

They kind of HAVE it in "SMALL" print on the slight delay status.

Try here..if the price is right, ask for John Coyne, tell him a LONG time 3 digit customer told you to call him.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:39 | 713235 fightthepower
fightthepower's picture

This is just another reason not to buy futures, but to own physical. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:42 | 713256 Walter_Sobchak
Walter_Sobchak's picture

How can anyone even question the manipulation at this point?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:58 | 713363 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

How could anyone question owning PMs while Benny is flipping feddies from his fannie?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:10 | 713807 erik
erik's picture

Since the rule is effective 11/10 (tomorrow), does that mean that we'll see one more day of deleveraging selloff in SLV and GLD?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:14 | 714082 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I cannot believe anyone would be buying on margin, but if they think $1500.00 is gonna stop them, their nuts.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:35 | 714164 erik
erik's picture

Since the margin change is effective after close of business tomorrow...

Does that mean that brokers will force de-leveraging on Thursday morning if you don't do it by close of business tomorrow?

Have the majority of the leveraged positions been de-leveraged by close today or will there be a substantial amount tomorrow as well?

The real question is how much leverage has been utilized in the run-up.  I guess we will know by Thursday morning at the latest.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:41 | 713613 66Sexy
66Sexy's picture

doesnt this prevent a bubble?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:26 | 713137 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Funny how Soybeans, Sugar and Cotton are allowed to soar, but silver isn't.


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:28 | 713153 beanieville
beanieville's picture

That's because silver smells like ponzi or tulip.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:32 | 713187 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Fuck you're dumb. Why do you post here on the silver threads anyway?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:37 | 713217 beanieville
beanieville's picture

When gold and silver crashes at higher prices (if they go higher), then the parabolic decline will probably be 10 times worse as todays.

I'd like to own some silver and gold but I don't know how to evaluate what they're really worth, and neither does anyone.

I think it's just Tulips part deux, and that's scary.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:40 | 713244 UncleFurker
UncleFurker's picture


You bury tulips in the ground and dig 'em up 200 years later and see how much they're worth compared to gold and silver.


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:02 | 713762 CapTool
CapTool's picture

nothing, Im dead

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:40 | 713245 Jean Valjean
Jean Valjean's picture

Well you just hang on to those FRN's of yours then.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:42 | 713260 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture

You should buy the 30 year treasury notes.  Fuckwad!

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:43 | 713955 Cow
Cow's picture

Why do you get so upset just because he disagrees with you?

Wed, 11/10/2010 - 03:53 | 715178 Captain Courageous
Captain Courageous's picture

WTF is your problem...why so personal?

Does the mere difference of perspective challenge your manhood?

or do you just know everything?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:42 | 713261 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

Johnny is that you?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:47 | 713295 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

From your link: "Do gold bugs really believe that the debasement of currencies will take us back to gold system (and the barter system, to an extent)? Not really, truthfully. They're pumping gold endlessly, so when it gets all frenzied up with the Average Joes bidding it up Tulipmania-style, they're all gonna dump their shares of GLD or GDXJ or NG, or GG, hard and heavy on the latecomers and you'll never hear from the gold bugs again.

Incidentally, once they sell their shares of GLD, GDXJ, NG, GG, the shares get CONVERTED BACK to US Dollar (fiat money) in their brokerage accounts. So you know the gold bugs buying gold shares don't really believe the Dollar will disappear."

I don't think you "get it". I don't know what gold is "worth" either. But I do know what an FRN is worth - nothing. It's a piece of cotton and ink that represents a corrupt and bankrupt system. I will NEVER trade my physical back in for FRN's. I don't care what the price is. Physical gold and silver are hedges for the corruption and eventual bankruptcy of the system. Do you understand diversification? Does that not include possible and likely scenarios of fiat currency destruction? Has a fiat currency system EVER survived forever? So, yes, I do believe we will be going back to a barter system - at least for a time. And if and when that happens I will be able to feed, clothe, and defend my family. And if it doesn't happen, that's fine too. I'm not all in. I'm diversified. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:01 | 713377 beanieville
beanieville's picture

You are not kidding me, right?  We will never return to the gold and silver as standard currency because physicals are inconvenient and the current human population we have today makes it even more impossible.  Paper or electronic is where we'll always be at.  


If you're worry about the dollar, go to a swiss bank and convert your dollars to swiss or any currency that you think will survive.  


You think all currencies will die?  Worldwide gold/silver standard on 9 billion human population?  C'mon man. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:07 | 713420 Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

"We will never return to the gold and silver as standard currency because physicals are inconvenient"


Yes, honesty is inconvenient to bankers and lawyers...

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:10 | 713440 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Unlike you, I'm not sure of anything. I'm diversified for a variety of possible outcomes. 

You really think if a paper system collapses, that people will immediately accept paper? Have you read any stories about what people had to do to get food in Weimar Germany? 

You really think if the USD collapses that any fiat currency will survive?

As I said, your link has flawed logic. It doesn't think like a true gold bug does. I don't know what will happen. I'm diversified. We shall see...

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:19 | 713489 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That's what the Chinese probably thought as thier population surpassed 100 million around 1200 AD.

This is shortly before their population plunged as their currency collapsed, and they spend the next 700 years on a silver standard.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:24 | 713520 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

Both arguments are correct imvho.  We won't return to a PM-based currency because it is simply too unwieldy, even if PMs were not the enemy of Der Stadt; but that does not preclude PMs from rising very, very nicely in any event.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:05 | 713786 goldsaver
goldsaver's picture

Why would it be unwieldy? You are thinking that prices would remain the same in metallic vs. cotton standard. They would not. So for example, instead of you paying $4 FRNs for your morning Starsucks, you would pay 2 silver dimes. Same current value, different price. A good dinner could cost you $60 FRNs or $2 Silver dollars. Same dinner, different prices. You would have the option of having private holding companies, similar to banks, holding a metallic account for you and issuing a debit card to be charged against your account. This private institutions would not be allowed to ever use fractional banking and would make money by charging a fee, similar to credit/debit card fees today, to the merchants that you do business with. The vendor would then have the option of settling daily in metallic or FRN at daily open market spot price. The private holding house would be similar to paypal today.

The key of this is motivation and information. I can today, walk into selected restaurants I have done business with in the past, and use this system. But is not widely used.

The key is the tax code. We need a court decision that says that the face value of metallic is the taxable value of the coin. With that most people would automatically prefer the extreme tax cut that this would represent. Imagine if you can. Your Boss gives you an option. Be paid $1500 FRNs a week or $50 in gold. What would you rather report to the IRS, a 90K a year salary or a $600 a year salary? That is the key. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:44 | 713963 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Now that is how you handle perspective. Well said.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:23 | 714122 Zé Cacetudo
Zé Cacetudo's picture

We need a court decision that says that the face value of metallic is the taxable value of the coin.

I believe there was just such a case in Federal court - a business owner in Las Vegas was paying his employees or contractors with gold and/or silver eagles, and the IRS went after him for under-reporting his salaries. The IRS lost in 2007:

However, it looks like they nailed him to the wall 2 years later, when he got 15 years in the joint for tax evasion etc:

Make of that what you will. And note that this was a trial, not an appeal that would create case law precedent.

Wed, 05/11/2011 - 20:39 | 1265972 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Made an example of him; I wonder why? Not to mention it brings to light the inherent dichotomy of a 50 'dollar' coin that has a melt value of 1500 plus 'dollars'.

Of course, 300 million or so cases might overwhelm the system, no?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:24 | 713521 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

If you don't know how to value PMs why do you want to buy them?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:44 | 713645 realitybiter
realitybiter's picture

You're right.  The dollar will continue to be a wellspring of wealth that we can draw from foreever and ever.  Just write another bond and hand the money over to the worthy Americans.  Right.  

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:06 | 714051 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

As a metal head, I totally agree. I have faith that my government will muck it up real good and that my pm holdings will continue their atmospheric rise. Come to poppa.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:44 | 714196 Nels
Nels's picture

We will never return to the gold and silver as standard currency because physicals are inconvenient...

Numbskull, read your history.  Paper money did exist in 1912, before the Federal Reserve was created, and while we were on the gold standard.  Metals are somewhat inconvenient to carry, which is why the gold standard meant that one piece of paper marked $1 was defined to be the equivalent of 1/35 of an ounce of gold.   Being on the gold standard doesn't mean you only carry gold, but that gold is the standard of meaning for what the paper money is worth, and that you can go to the bank and exchange your paper for a known amount of gold.

A gold standard is very inconvenient for partial reserve bankers.  It means that they can go broke too.  Fiat money means that the TBTF bankers never have to lose, or at least that was the plan from 1913.

All currencies might not die (i.e. go to zero), but any one could.  Gold won't.

9 billion folks, and how many million ounces of gold?  Wikipedia states the gold available as 165,000 tonnes, which I figure roughly to 1/2 oz/person.   That's currently $700 or so per person.   That's not much by US standards, close to Wikipedia's median world wide annual income of $825.   So, gold would work to provide a basis for commerce, though the value might go much higher than it is currently.

They let anybody in on ZH these days.  Groucho had it right - once they let me in, I should have known it would go downhill.

Wed, 11/10/2010 - 05:34 | 715536 spdrdr
spdrdr's picture

"9 billion folks, and how many million ounces of gold?"

WTF did 9 billion come from?  Sort of like those sea-levels rising and glaciers melting, i.e. totally lacking in any empirical substance.

Think before you post....





Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:05 | 714282 hamstercheese
hamstercheese's picture

Would you currently accept a gold or silver coin in exchange for any goods or services?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:13 | 714310 walküre
walküre's picture

I would. Preferred form of payment actually. I have enough paper that's becoming worth less and less each day to last for years.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:47 | 713296 Huxley Ann
Huxley Ann's picture



As I type this, New York spot gold is down 1.43% from yesterday's close. If we were talking about a share of stock down 1.43% on the day, we wouldn't BE talking about it.



Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:47 | 713634 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

Particularly given the take-down was totally orchestrated by the Evil Empire.  Ben and the EE do not get much bang for the buck with the rule change.

Today is a defining moment for the CFTC.  Will Bart Chilton and CFTC allow this bullshit to stand or will they reverse it.

If the CME increases margin on the Longs then they ought to do the same to the Shorts.

If the CME makes margin requirement changes to Silver why not the other commodities?


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:00 | 713374 Bill Lumbergh
Bill Lumbergh's picture

Your blog entitled "A Better Way to Trade Stocks" should be changed to "Buy, Hold, & Keep the Fingers Crossed".

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:22 | 713508 outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture

They will fall no doubt but only on paper. Physical will be nearly impossible to get. Then you will cry as will many others. Many will drown from all the tears. Ears will be split from the wailing.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:31 | 713558 akak
akak's picture

Beanieville: The new residence of JohnnyBravo.


BV, I suggest you go out and buy some Beano, as you are blowing an excessive amount of acrid flatulence here today.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:20 | 713851 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

Another Johnny Bravo.... just ignore these trollholes ... they just want attention and they are too dumb to learn.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:00 | 714262 hamstercheese
hamstercheese's picture

you don't know what they are really worth?  Do you know what the dollar is really worth? set is finite in amount, the other is infinite.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:42 | 713259 gotgold
gotgold's picture

school must be out in colorado.....
how is your FAZ trade working out?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:39 | 713232 knukles
knukles's picture

Not really.  It's quite common for initial margin requirements to be boosted when any underlying displays exceptional volatility for an extended period.  The reason is that the initial serves as the backstop final fail good faith performance bond such that if any participant fails to meet a nightly variation margin call, the initial margin may be seized, utilized to cover the deficit variation payment with the counter party and position thence closed out.

The clearing corporations must ensure that counter-parties can meet financial obligations or the viability of the exchange itself is extinguished.

T'is another reason, and today is a great example, of why an asset such as gold is not a good idea to use as initial margin.  If its price drops during some unanticipated event and variation margins are not met, the position of gold, for example, might be insufficient to satisfy the monies due to the party on the other side of the contract.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:42 | 713263 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture


to "show good faith" gotta be joking?

let's see JPM and HSBC ante up the same margin as everyone else, and then we can talk about good faith.

what a joke.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:58 | 713361 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Did you bother actually looking at those commodities I listed? Or oats? They're all increasing at a much faster pace than silver. But obviously that's ok, because JPM don't sit on a huge short position in either of those.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:38 | 714397 DosZap
DosZap's picture


The LAST thing I want these wienerheads doing is going back to a Gold/Slvr  Std.

They will seize it, order it's consfiscation, and for sure put a set value on it.

Even if they DID not confiscate it, they WILL put a set value on it.

Thats one reason I do not (unless I  have no choice) buy American coins.

If they decided to call them in, all have face values, and trust me, thats exactly what you would get paid for them.

A 1oz Eagle(worth $1k/$1300.00), and you get face legal tender value.$50.00.

Get 24k if possible, more widely accepted WORLD wide,than mixed coinage, and no set value on the bullion coin.

You at least have a market cost value  argument there.

IF they were smart, they would use a MIXED Commodities based index using 8-10 items of value to set the value of a paper currency.

This way the prices of PM's would not have to be SO high, we common people would not be allowed to own them.

Wed, 11/10/2010 - 03:12 | 715100 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Gold coins can easily be hammered or melted into jewelry -- worry about something else.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:07 | 714054 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Not really, Tylers comment was a clue.............

IF the Silver gets REAL short, the D.C boyeez will declare it a Natl Emg.

We cannot run the country (mfg wise) w/out it.

So therfore, it's a strategic metal.Agri can always be grown, Silver is finite.

So can tinoil be, if they so desired.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:19 | 714329 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

If that were to happen, Canada would go belly up. Their mines south of the Rio Grande would instantly be nationalized by their respective countries a la Hugo Chavez. Another phenomenon we shall witness shortly is reverse migration, from north to south. How's your español?  "Quiere usted papas freedom con sus tacos, señor??"

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:41 | 714407 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Have already surmised that, and I will be JUMPING over Mexico,(if the worlds econ collapses Mexico will be a 100% hellhole) into Peru, Argentina, Brasil, Uraguay,etc.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:27 | 713139 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture


so, we're beating them....and whenever that happens, they change the rules. screw 'em. i've got more cash....i'll be happy to give you more of Bennie's fresh mint for silver....more than happy.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:37 | 713214 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!  As we go down Leg 2 of today's action!

My (metaphorical) trigger finger is getting itchy, it wants to pull the trigger real soon and buy PMs...

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:59 | 714017 sheeple
sheeple's picture

what a ride today ... for oil as well

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:01 | 714026 geminiRX
geminiRX's picture

Yes, the correction was a relief to see. I may try to pick up more PSLV on the dip.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:06 | 713329 Ckierst1
Ckierst1's picture

Hi unwashed!  The forum gang sez "Hi!" as well.  We're also starting to eyeball physical with this drop.  Some folks think the PMs are going into Phase III.  I dunno.  If they are, then this correction will likely be pretty short lived cuz my experience has been that things get real volatile in Phase III.  Good luck and I hope that your college search thing went well.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:45 | 714416 DosZap
DosZap's picture

 IMHO,No Phase 3,until the unwashed masses start buying..........that's when it's time to get OUT.

As of now, less than 1% of Americans have a clue what is going on,and own ZERO PM's.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:45 | 714417 DosZap
DosZap's picture

 IMHO,No Phase 3,until the unwashed masses start buying..........that's when it's time to get OUT.

As of now, less than 1% of Americans have a clue what is going on,and own ZERO PM's.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:27 | 713144 beanieville
beanieville's picture

Nobody knows how to value gold and silver.  Silver up 2, so what, what does it mean? Should you buy more on the way up?  Buy to how high?  Or sell to how low?  That's why precious metals go parabolic up and down.  Nobody know nothing. 

And you thought that it was difficult to evaluate banks for their toxic assets!  

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:42 | 713265 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Oh, but valuing stocks is easy for em! THAT they have the answer for- always higher!

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:53 | 713313's picture

Nobody knows how to value gold and silver.


You're watching a vastly entertaining display of price discovery live and in person and that what's you come away with? When you watch a football game do you say, "Nobody knows to which end of the field the ball should be carried?"

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:25 | 713876 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That gave me a chuckle.  I like it.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:53 | 713328 merehuman
merehuman's picture

Use the head, thats what its for. If by now you still dont see the difference between FRNs and silver or gold you are a lost. Silver costs 600.00 more or less to mine and coin one ounce.

The one, ten or hundred dollar bills all cost the same to print.

The dollar can be worthless over night. Gold has held its value over a thousand years.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:54 | 713996 Cow
Cow's picture

"Silver costs 600.00 more or less to mine and coin one ounce."  Certainly, you mean gold

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:11 | 713444 PapiBow
PapiBow's picture

>> Nobody knows how to value gold and silver.


Everybody knows how to value the federal government - TOTALLY WORTHLESS. But still the federal government is hundreds times more expensive than all gold and silver combined. This is how to value gold and silver




Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:27 | 713145 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Obliterated from the highs on world record volume today.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:45 | 713281 moofph
moofph's picture

...charts charting the uncharted metal compass points north.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:46 | 713286 Bill Lumbergh
Bill Lumbergh's picture

"World record volume"...someday you will learn the difference between volume characteristics of an individual stock and the entire population of stocks.  This is big volume for SLW no doubt and one wicked bearish engulfing candle.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:49 | 713306 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

How about the move in the REIT's?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:50 | 713315 JonNadler
JonNadler's picture

Robot, you can't strike panic in the hearts of goldbugs if you only show up when silver goes down.


Let's try this: THE BIG BEAR in silver has begun today, it will be $3.57 by January 2011. Well, lets leave January 2011 alone, am soiling my pants that Jim Sinclair's prediction may come true

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:02 | 713386 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Liar!  I saw that email you JPM guys got!

Gold to $50.

Silver to $1.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:57 | 713735 akak
akak's picture

RobotAsswipe, your laughably short-sighted and selectively-picked charts attempting to badmouth and discredit those holding gold and silver in this insane financial environment, with a collapsing fiat currency and a sociopathic elite run amock, are just indicative of the woefully large number of terminally ADD-afficted and blinkered idiots with their five-minute time horizons who continue to play in and enable, not to mention apologize for, the massively corrupted and manipulated markets of today.  Enjoy your paper profits while they last, which will not be long.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:28 | 713885 tmosley
tmosley's picture

He refuses to go all in short like I keep telling him to.  No conviction, this one.

Probably posts from a bunkbed he shares with Johnny Bravo.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:27 | 713147 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Someone please explain exactly what this means.


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:31 | 713172 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

It means the authorities don't give a shit about people being unable to afford rocketing foodstuff commodities, and are only interested in protecting those with huge short positions in Silver.

Bought. And. Paid. For.


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:32 | 713181 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

people can't be as leveraged in the slv, so I am guessing it was 5,000 for 1,000 ounces? Now its 6,500 to buy the same amount.  

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:54 | 714444 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Unless I misread, its a 2 Billion dollar a year mkt( REAL PHYS Silver)...worldwide.( may have been 20), but either way, it would only take 3-4  very wealthy individuals to control it all.

(Clandestinely of course).This is why I hate ETF's in the BIG 4.

You come in and control 10x's the value for less than a tenth the value.That's why the PM mkts real values have been screwed.

Stop the NON physical ETF's, and BACK UP!

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:36 | 713211 shushup
shushup's picture

Please buya shirt for your prositute.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:52 | 713699 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Please buy a bag for your head...cuz damn.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:23 | 713516 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Avatar changed... nice.  We looked at the backside so long, it's nice to see the rest.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:33 | 713908 Optimusprime
Optimusprime's picture

You changed, or at least raised, your signature avatar.  Is this a different friend?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:28 | 713157 wiskeyrunner
wiskeyrunner's picture

Stock index futures will rise overnight as usual. Todays selloff will be erased by 2:30am cst.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:31 | 713174 BeeTee
BeeTee's picture

I'm a PM bull, but I sold all physical today at $28.00, the pickings were just too good.

Sitting and holding ain't so clever sometimes.

I'll buy back in at $26ish...

Ag bitchez...

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:34 | 713199 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Huh? I would have thought transaction cost on physical would require more like a 10-20% spread - but 8%? Really?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:52 | 713323 bronzie
bronzie's picture

28% tax rate on capital gains in silver and gold - trading in and out is silly

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:07 | 714046 geminiRX
geminiRX's picture

Why would you claim it in the first place? Sell it anonymously and hide the cash. Here in Canada, the government doesn't keep tabs on people who buy and sell small quantities of gold and silver (less than 5000 bucks I believe)

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:06 | 714048 Geoff-UK
Geoff-UK's picture

WHAT capital gains?!  I spent all my cash at the blackjack table in Vegas.  Coin show?  What's that?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:23 | 714121 All_In
All_In's picture

Assuming one actually feels the government deserves and worked hard for their share...

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:55 | 714451 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Thats on metals held for OVER a year.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:42 | 713254 CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

Good for you, at least someone wasn't standing starting into the headlights.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:22 | 713510 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I'm afraid that I bought all of your silver, and I'm not giving it back to you for dollars.

Sorry :(

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 19:33 | 714159 The Rogue Economist
The Rogue Economist's picture

Dude, if you want to trade why not just buy and sell options on SLV? You get more leverage, and can hedge with opposing spreads. Buy physical as insurance, not as a short term trade.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:31 | 713175 Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith's picture

Mission accomplished.  Paint in an oustide reversal day, derail the momentum of the pm's for the next few weeks.  Cover some of your egregious short positions.

Would love to see the Asians snap this bargain up in overnight trading. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:34 | 713195 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

+1...I think Ben's underwear budget is tracking the dollar.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:35 | 713204 CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

+++++  If the Asians are pissed enough and smart they might run it up.  Just to fire their own little defiant missile.  

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:37 | 713208 fiddler_on_the_roof
fiddler_on_the_roof's picture

FYI - Asians don't like Silver much. They prefer Gold. Silver longs can easily be broken because there is no mental value assigned for Silver in the Asian mind, unlike Gold who provide the support when pushed down. They like to buy low and Silver is not on the menu.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:41 | 713250 qussl3
qussl3's picture

Chinese used mainly Silver ingots and traded porcelain, silk and tea only for silver - at least till opium came along.


The Indians LOVE gold however, so its an interesting dynamic.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:45 | 713278 fiddler_on_the_roof
fiddler_on_the_roof's picture

You are talking in past tense. is there a love for Silver in the average Chinese mind NOW? I think NO. On the other hand the Love for Gold is now and ever.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:56 | 713350 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

agreed, most of the chinese populace doesn't give a squat about silver -- they look down on it in fact.  it's gold baby gold.   OTOH, the chinese gov't (given their huge stockpiles) might be inspired to pull an end around and use it in some sort of currency format, like america used to do.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:39 | 713610 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

qussl3; correct in my experience.  My wife auctions antiques to the Chinks and has seen a significant uptick in demand for Western silverware! 

They have their 'Panda' coins but those have been on a relatively low mintage schedule so if they ever get really interested in AG, it will be lights out on Broadway. 

The 'Pandas' (lame coins, nothing as beautiful as our Eagles) have carried a 10% or more premium for many months.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:05 | 713782 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

interesting...i know you think all chinks are the same, but do you know if the purchases are concentrated in the north or the south?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:51 | 713304 Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith's picture


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:17 | 713482 moofph
moofph's picture

"FYI - Asians don't like Silver much" they hate it so much they refine it for the world since we americans do not.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:09 | 713802 TheJudge2012
TheJudge2012's picture

That reminds me, wasn't there news recently that the Chinese govt was going to decrease exports of silver and other metals they refine?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:34 | 713913 moofph
moofph's picture

...yes...and by having 90% of the rare earth metals, they have a pretty good hand at the table of destruction..."who's bluffing?" is the real question at this point in time.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 21:06 | 714488 DosZap
DosZap's picture

They do not have a LOCK on 90% of the worlds RE's.

They just have spent the money to MINE it.

We have a shitload here in the US, just till now, it has not been profitable enough to mine it.

They "temporarily" have us by the short hairs, because we're idiots and our 235yr old histoical pattern is to wait till we have NO choice, beofe we make a move.

WE plan(as a Government), nothing. The Chinese have a 50yr plan in effect at all times.Why do you think they are were they are, and we are where we are.............

People do not plan to fail, they fail to plan.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 21:22 | 714532 moofph
moofph's picture

...the present moment is the same regardless...and do you see anyone cracking the mining whips into action? (no) well, i don't see them either...but i see a lot of fools more concerned about fiat computer chip digi-cash to save their ass rather than any national security effort to become self-sufficient to save a nation's sovereignty...and the mining will take years to develop at the current hyper-regulation

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 21:55 | 714629 DosZap
DosZap's picture


well, since that is their PLAN and has been from day one,(DO NOTHING to collapse the country) don't expect them to do anything unless forced by the newly elected, and the Amercican people threatening them within a hair.

But, they are already starting American War Games, to control We Po sad SOB's,in case we get randy.

(For real) Rickards on King World has staed same in his newest interview.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:20 | 713497 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:29 | 713892 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Are you kidding?  Asians used silver as currency in living memory.

They LOVE silver.  Maybe not as much as gold, but it doesn't take all that much.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 18:59 | 714012 fiddler_on_the_roof
fiddler_on_the_roof's picture

Answer these please -

(1) Are Asians buying Silver as Money for store of wealth ? I have not come upon any such reports. Whereas all the way from Turkey eastward, people buy Gold as Wealth.

(2) Are Asians buying Silver as jewelery ? miniscule.

(3) Are Asian CB's buying Silver as Reserve and store of wealth ? NO. Only if Govt want to make Silver as Money can this happen.

Until then Silver is just a commodity for Industrial use NOW. I am not talking about the past.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 20:17 | 714322 oddjob
oddjob's picture


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 21:38 | 714572 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Here, let me Google that for you:

And, the Chinese have limited silver exports:

This took about five minutes to compile.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 21:00 | 714465 DosZap
DosZap's picture

That has now been turned into an old wives tale, the Chi Coms are eating it up, and the Indians are also.

The Japanese were sucking up Plat like crazy, because the price was so close to Gold.

I do not care WHAT the commodity is, if it's used, and its in a real shortage situation, EVERYONE wants it.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 21:56 | 714487 DosZap
DosZap's picture



Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:33 | 713189 CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

What next?  MFs come up with anything. Clear out the shorts for God Sake.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:34 | 713191 uno
uno's picture

wait for option expiration day this month, bet they do this again.

If you can't beat them, change the rules

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:34 | 713192 Sun Tsu
Sun Tsu's picture

3 steps & a stumble - Manipulation to end manipulation - Not

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:34 | 713193 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

DZZ up on volume

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:34 | 713196 shushup
shushup's picture

So is that why the market is barely selling off by comparisson?


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:34 | 713202 BeeTee
BeeTee's picture

I think we're in for a couple of down days.  There's an angry pack at the G20 and someone has to sit in the US chair and say, "look, strong USD!"

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:35 | 713205 The Rogue Trader
The Rogue Trader's picture

Asians buy physical....what a joke raising margins....weak handed spec longs...good riddance....ready for the next phase of the rocket shot without em...

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:41 | 713621 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture


Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:36 | 713210 Jason T
Jason T's picture

Russia and China will fart and take it to $35 in no time.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 21:25 | 714535 Janice
Janice's picture

I'd like to smell that one.  As my husband says while driving past a cattle ranch....Smell that money! 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:37 | 713215 shushup
shushup's picture

Nice to see the longs get sideswiped for a change.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:37 | 713218 HarryWanger
HarryWanger's picture

Wow! That's some reversal! Don't worry about equities though, Fed is assuring they won't drop much. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:39 | 713228 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yea whatever Harry, hey dont you have an ICBM trail to debunk or something?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:54 | 713337 bronzie
bronzie's picture

Harry Wanker,

how is it that you have so much time to post when your 'discretionary consumables' (ie, porn) business is doing so well?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:55 | 713724 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Fluffers get time off while they shoot the scenes.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:38 | 713222 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

This is the very reason Im not a PM player....when it goes up in their faces they throw a tantrum and hammer it down by any means, and if that doesnt work, theyll ban it, criminalize it, confiscate it. 

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:50 | 713309 web bot
web bot's picture

What you need to realize is that this move is to quell a bubble... the problem is that this is no ordinary bubble. We are on the verge of a major collapse, so this is a hiccup. The reversal today is temporary. PMs are rising due to the impending collapse of the USD...

The run up in silver/gold is not over... it's just beginning.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:57 | 713359 haskelslocal
haskelslocal's picture

Pending collapse of the USD? Doesn't each currency only create perceied value off it's comparison to an alternative currency? Are physical dollars not absolutely hoarded across the globe, so M0 is tight as populations still fear the regimes that rule them more so than the USD? Is there not significant debt loads that are exponentially larger than the minimal QE and POMO injections presented so far?(in relation to the size of outstanding debt)  Have you come up for air to see the value of the USD in it's crowded trade environment to notice that, in the most crowed trade in the world, it's done nothing more than churn 2010 away?  I hope you've got a nice place to store your gold, a quality scale and a sharp cutting tool that creates finite shavings to distribute your new currency when the old one collapses.  

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:42 | 713227 London Dude Trader
London Dude Trader's picture

A hike in margin requirements would only affect those who went long at the top. Anyone who got in even as late as this morning, let alone earlier in the week,  would have had such a large unrealized profit to more than make up for the higher margin. This is a typical sell-off at the top of a parabolic move, exacerbated by the strong USD.  Personally I think that anyone who didn't get out after SI crossed 28.50 is an idiot, I could see this coming imminently and loaded up on cheap puts.  

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:39 | 713231 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Outright, panic selling after a 9 year run.

World record volume today.

Looks like its over.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:41 | 713253 redpill
redpill's picture

Will you come apologize when it hits $30?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:06 | 713413 ZeroPower
ZeroPower's picture

Interesting. What if it drops back down to $25 first?

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 17:56 | 713732 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Then I'll be much happier when it hits $30.

Tue, 11/09/2010 - 16:44 | 713276 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

'Absolute PANIC selling'!

Yea wow all the way back to yesterdays record high.... RoboT go fondle yourself.

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