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Postcards From Greece
For all those who wish CNBC would actually focus on the real problem areas of discussion, such as, oh, say Greece, and do some reporting instead of pandering to mutual fund managers puimping their books, here is a clip of what is really going on in this southeast European hotbed of IMF bailout activity.
h/t @fiatcurrency
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mutual fund managers pumping their books
correction: pimpin' their books
Wow. I was in Athens, Greece on vacation almost 1 year ago to the day, and even then there were protests beginning. In particular, around the time I had to fly out, there were problems with Airport personnel threatening to strike, which was alarming. Aside from that, there were occasional rioting in the streets, but nothing like this.
On that note, this is why there will be no real budget cut backs in the USA. Because once you take stuff away from people (social programs), it's like taking away food from a dog while its eating.
We live in a strange age when "occasional rioting in the streets" is considered normality.
After watching the video posted by Tyler, watch this video (Start around 30 seconds) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8dhngY_1pM&feature=related
LMAO!! He nailed that guy's voice.
This is how it should be done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtGSXMuWMR4
This is really how it should be done: http://www.newser.com/story/81756/latvian-matrix-hacker-exposes-corrupt-govt.html
Ha, I was thinking the opposite, look back and its been a relatively brief period when people aren't rioting in the streets. This is nothing!
Or did we just pass through a strange age in which there was a historical aberration, a period of unusual calm, given that we are as a species essentially nasty, fighting apes, particularly when placed under a bit of stress....
To put this in perspective, consider the comment of one historian. He's noted that periods of educational advancement have only lasted about 300 years throughout human history. Consider the notable periods. The Greeks, the Arabs, and most recently our own Enlightenment period starting in the 1700's.
Yes, I'd say our current abnormal era of unusual calm, and advancement, was coming to an end.
Dude, there was nothing "unusual(ly) calm" about the 20th Century by any standard in human history.
In fact by this standards of the 19th century, the 20th century was ultra-violent.
If you download Dan Carlin's amazing "Hardcore History" podcasts, such as the harrowing 4 part "Ghosts of the Ostfront," about the Soviet-Nazi faceoff in the east in WWI, you would agree this has been a time of extraordinary civility, all things considered. No financial interest or shilling (they're free on iTunes and at his website, but you'll donate a dollar) but highly recommended for the ZHer looking for a zesty history lesson.
Strange? I call it sad when the people are so apathetic, so
traumatized, so frightened that they cannot bring themselves to publicly demonstrate against their oppressors. Instead Americans today simply cringe like whipped dogs while their masters kick them again and again. The nation has been gutted, disemboweled and all we can do is stare blankly into space hoping for some miracle to save us. Well, there isn't any miracle except maybe a mass demonstration that gets people off their couches and into the streets.
Read "Too Scared to Cry" by Lenore Terr and "Betrayal Trauma" by Jennifer Freyd.
Yep. I feel kicked!
Back to iPod to plan my vacation, watch baseball, and video chat with my son who's studying at Michigan.
Dogs are wonderful creatures, but they live in the present. They do not, as far as I can tell, respond to metaphors and narratives or project themselves through imagination into the future or reinterpret their pasts. Humans do, and there's your difference. Propagandists work this knowledge, so as decline continues it's really a matter of what kind of narrative(s) take hold. The American Dream narrative is crumbling, but what replaces it?
Dogs are wonderful creatures, but they live in the present. They do not, as far as I can tell, respond to metaphors and narratives or project themselves through imagination into the future or reinterpret their pasts. Humans do, and there's your difference. Propagandists work this knowledge, so as decline continues it's really a matter of what kind of narrative(s) take hold. The American Dream narrative is crumbling, but what replaces it?
Dogs are wonderful creatures, but they live in the present. They do not, as far as I can tell, respond to metaphors and narratives or project themselves through imagination into the future or reinterpret their pasts. Humans do, and there's your difference. Propagandists work this knowledge, so as decline continues it's really a matter of what kind of narrative(s) take hold. The American Dream narrative is crumbling, but what replaces it?
Meanwhile, Greek politicians are busy sparring over how far back the official probe into fraudulent financial statistics should go:
Parties clash over stats inquiry PASOK calls for probe into financial statistics between 2004 and 2009; ND wants inspection to go back to 1981
As officials from the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund began inspections in Athens to determine whether authorities are pushing through austerity measures, the two main political parties blamed each other for Greece’s economic crisis.
The exchange of accusations in Parliament came just a few hours after the government tabled a motion in the House for the formation of an investigative committee to determine how inaccuracies crept into Greece’s economic statistics.
Ruling PASOK is proposing that the probe cover the period between 2004 and 2009 when the previous conservative government was in power. “A report by independent experts clearly indicates that the political responsibility for the poor management of statistics lies with the previous administration,” PASOK parliamentary spokesman Christos Papoutsis said.
Opposition New Democracy rebuffed the ruling party’s proposal, saying that it had a “political agenda.” ND spokesman Panos Panayiotopoulos spoke of “a deliberate attempt to cover up the truth.”
ND said it did not oppose the creation of an investigative committee in principle but stressed that such a probe should go back to 1981 when PASOK first came to power, rather than centering exclusively on ND’s last stint in government.
According to sources, there are rifts within the ranks of the conservative party as some prominent cadres, including former Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis, object to an investigation focusing on the economy.
Sources close to PASOK revealed that several ruling-party MPs too had initially objected to the idea of the proposed investigation before being convinced.
Meanwhile, sources said Prime Minister George Papandreou and Finance Minister Giorgos Papaconstantinou have agreed on additional austerity measures that are due to be announced next week. The measures are set to include a hike on value-added tax and a higher tax on luxury goods.
Ah yes, and important milestone in any government crisis is deciding who to blame it on...
....indeed. Obama spent 6 hours on the exclusive subject of blame today at Blair House.
I can see it's only a matter of time.
Okay, I fess up. IT'S ALL MY FAULT! Blame me. I dun it.
I never should have stolen that candy bar back in 1962.
Try saying Panos Panayiotopoulous five times fast...
Hale, to the Greeks.
Please show us Americans and others the light please. Show us how it's done.
just like you showed the world the light of civilization.
Please show us how to get rid off our shackles.
We do need your help desparetely to get rid of the Ephialtes of the financial glliterati.
I think if we americans hit the street, about half
would die from heart attacks. What we need are
motorized couches and recliners, with a UPS and satelite/TV attached. Then we can hit the streets...
You can riot, riot, riot
In your Hover-Round
Indoors, outdoors all over town.
Have to keep this down, this kind of activity is contagious. Its probably on PBS. On the other hand look at the this bull market here want some kool-aid.
And this from Athens News:
No time for half-measures George Gilson Issue No. 13378 WHILE Prime Minister George Papandreou prepares to decide just how tough to make his government’s austerity measures, the prospect of extremely strict income-and-tax provisions on middleclass wage earners has not met with universal support among his deputies. Though he stresses his support for the premier, parliamentary secretary Christos Papoutsis had been among the more outspoken critics. However, in a written response to this newspaper, Papoutsis explains why his stance has softened in recent weeks and how he now believes that this is not the time for half-measures. He also says the ongoing parliamentary probes into various scandals are necessary to regain public confidence. Pasok’s labour programme - from salary increases to not raising the retirement age - was overturned within the first four months the party was in power. Do you think the government’s delay in taking effective fiscal measures and the targeting of New Democracy’s statistics and policies opened the floodgates for speculative attacks? The Pasok government inherited a country that was entirely unarmed to face the attacks of [market] speculators. Unfortunately, due to the policies of the Karamanlis government, Greece finds itself under EU fiscal supervision for the second time. This is the first time that the Maastricht Treaty is being implemented with this level of fiscal oversight, in the framework of the economic and monetary union, and that in a period of recession for the European economy. Moreover, the resistance of the euro and the effectiveness of EU organs are being tested. In this asphyxiating framework, the Pasok government is managing the economic crisis with consistency and responsibility. The party is committed that all measures should guarantee social justice and the redistribution of wealth. There is no other road. At the same time, at the EU level, political decisions are needed that will apply to the entire union and the European economy. It is the duty of all governments to assume their responsibilities and organise support for the euro and the eurozone in a period of recession. In addition, it is the EU’s duty to take decisions that will bolster both the market regulative mechanisms and the process of development. Pasok is the only social-democratic government in Europe that has adopted harsh neoliberal measures. Indeed, with the support of rightwing parties. You personally seem to have abandoned your resistance. What will distinguish Pasok from ND from now on? The prime minister, like all of us, is committed to the redistribution of wealth, transparency, effectiveness in public administration, the rationalisation of fiscal policy, social solidarity, green development and the strengthening of the social state. Do you believe a tax system is fair when it places those netting 3,000 euros monthly in the 40 percent taxation bracket, thus making the lower end of the middle class bear the brunt of the crisis? When one approaches the handling of the crisis on a case-by-case basis, one can find some reason to feel unjustly treated. But at the same time all of us - both the government and a society that wants to feel that it functions collectively - are obliged to look at the people who lose their jobs or risk losing them and consider that their families may literally be left out in the cold. What’s important is that the government’s overall policy - on income and taxation - should correspond to the sense of justice that a society needs and confirm the redistribution of wealth. Does Pasok have a plan for handling a substantial increase in unemployment? We are trying to create new preconditions for growth and bolstering economic activity. That entails immediate exploitation of the public investments programme and of the [EU-funded] ESPA programme for small and large projects in the provinces, enhancing cooperation with the private sector and supporting small- and medium-sized businesses. We especially want to support enterprises that actively pursue innovation as well as environmentally friendly economic activities that save energy. Won’t a series of parliamentary probes into scandals divide political parties at a time when national unity is needed? Aside from national unity, we need national pride. And that cannot be achieved with institutions that are discredited. No reform or economic programme can gain the trust of the people and be implemented unless people are convinced that their fate is being managed by people with decency, consistent with the law and the public interest. Citizens will refuse to contribute to a collective effort if they are not sure that there are functioning institutions, which can check how governmental power is exercised. That is why we insist on checks and transparency. Greece must be able to face the future optimistically, relieved of the burdens and shadows of the past.Funny. Papanderou is the President of the International Socialist Organization... funny it is the country he heads that is the first dominoe to fall. The irony tickles me silly
Leo, thanks for the Athens piece.
Did you catch the interviewee saying that wealth distribution is part of the plan?
Oh! Looks like the USA may copy that one from Greece as well!
Thanks for sharing Leo.
Very informative. You won't see this type of reporting in the mainstream media. They are to busy blowing smoke up everyones ....you know the rest.
Nice clip.
CNBC and the mutual fund managers will soon find out what this all means.
Democracies don't deal well with austerity.
And rather than delivering all the bad news at once, I'm sure the government and special interests will continue to deny, postpone, resist, and delay the cuts, clawbacks, demands, and discontinuations which should keep the hostile mood of the citizenry elevated for months and years to come.
I read on other web sites that the protests aren't really that widespread, and that most Greeks actually agree with the austerity measures.
Anyone remember the protests by minority youths in Paris a few years ago? Those were probably worse in comparison, so don't take reports of protests to mean that Athens is about to crumble.
You can always swat down an unasimilated underclass (rioting in France)...at least until their numbers hit a tipping point.
But if the cause of the rioting is directly connected to the state itself becoming insolvent...that's a totally different story.
This is a bigger deal.
Revolution time. Terrible.
The government IS the problem.
"Laws are violated daily.." because there are too many laws, and the benefit the few to the detriment of the rest.
"I can't move out of my parents' house..." And why do you think you should be able to? Because your expectations have been raised by corrupt government spending practices?
Envy. A dissonance between expectations (demands) and reality.
Anarchy is the only answer. Without it, without freedom, without private associations and private enforcement, the cycle of State, oppression, revolution, State, will continue forever.
+111
"The greek gov't announced today that it is illegal for children to move back in with their parents."
Athens Chief of Police: "The youth have no respect for the law and will be shot when seen leaving the homes of their parents. They think they are hip and cool. We shall have the last laugh."
Sarkozy called them "scum" and dealt with them with an iron fist.
I suspect it will be much more violent in the USA.
Agreed. The entitlement crowd in the states is more likely to burn down their own neighborhoods than direct their anger in any meaningful manner. They have no idea what is really going on anyway - all of them are just trying to fight their way out of a wet paper bag as it is. If baby formula and diapers disappeared from the shelves today it would be the end of urban America as we know it.
After ~7 days of supply-line/infrastructure interruption the USA will never recover - I'd put my money on three.
Areas further than a full tank of gas away will be relatively quiet - until rural neighbors start to prey upon each other for a lack of supplies. It'll be a gridlock on the roads even without military checkpoints.
Get a bicycle, a glock, and travel at night if you weren't wise enough to head for a safer locale in the first 24 hours of confusion.
joe stack cpa, seems to have thrown a first stone. made a little dent.
+ 10
On the contrary. The American middle-class (the entitlement crowd, as you put it) LOVES law n' order, heavy-handed fascism--that's the problem.
You think you are losing your civil liberties now? Wait til things really get rolling...
Sadly, I cannot disagree - except that I wouldn't classify those that worked and "paid in" for decades, only to have their wealth trasferred away with promises, as the entitlement-think that prevails among the poor and otherwise disenfranchised.
But, but, but... CNBC is reputable. [/sarcasm]
Can someone post a direct link, plz? Apparently the firewall at work is not letting it embed. :( TIA
Greece needs to go Malaysian on these cretinous currency spec bums and deliver to them kica resounding kick to the nuts. Remember the Asian Currency wars!?
Turn to gold.
America circa 2015 and onward. Just add I-phones to the youths' hands, and more dumbfounded looks to their faces (as in "how did this happen here?").
The innocent must be punished. This will not end well. The next financial crisis will be even bigger because honest people will not do the "right thing" the next time.
None of this is a problem until the Greeks start serving Russian cocktails..
This interview is epic: the answer to the problems created by profligate socialism - better, more aggressive socialism. This guy has his head up his ass. Sadly, the Greeks seem just as deluded as Nancy Pelosi. I wish them luck.
no, you're deluded with your free market coolaid. capitalism is a high stakes GAME that 'succeeded' only because of the vast amounts natural resources that will soon be gone.
LOL, you really think that dont you.
EU can't handle the strong currency so they are not interested in bailing the Greece out. Their only hope is IMF, however IMF has a diluted mandate because the Greece is part of EU and IMF will wait till the end. Therefore the longer the Greek government is walking around the bush (EU), the higher the probability of the default. At this point, the default or the interest payment delays are more likely than timely bail out.
p.s.
Watch out for the Turkey and their coup rumors. It seems like some kind of infectious disease makes governmental idiots acting up at the worst time possible. (Unless the coup was real...that would make coup masters a bit rational.)
Amelie soundtrack? Seriously?
Yeah, I kept thinking of that movie too. I don't know why they picked that piece.
Now that I think about it, Amelie was probably representative of the 700 euro crowd of young people. No real wages and just drifting.
p.s.
it's all in there:
http://www.predictioneersgame.com/
hello
Kids, don't get excited!
Rioting is a form of sport in parts of Europe.
The rent-a-crowd of rioters travels from place to place and smells every opportunity to riot.
How many of the rioters have ever worked a proper job?
Not many, this much I know.
FYI.. the show dates back to oh I can't remember.. but Hitler had rioting crowds and so did the communists.
All it takes is ideology and some form of populism.
Yawn... the Greeks lived beyond their means. ALL of them. They had a BIG FAT CHANCE with the Euro to set things right but what do they do? They still don't work as their Northern brethren and demand, demand and demand government fixes all problems.
Idiots and fools. Money doesn't grow on trees. Working 30 hour weeks and retiring at 45 is impossible.
As for the American cheerleaders here.. get a life.
Max Keiser going Durden at 7:30. Awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A_1AB81KLo&feature=player_embedded#
+10
i dumb and blond. but your saying TD would speck sense like max did.
"to say there's no alternative is false... there's insurrection as a possibility!....why not get rid of this government, they're totally corrupt!!" lol, what a great line
MK's analysis good as far as it goes.
Euros fulminating over a Greek 12% debt:GDP ratio
four times their requirement while Ameros
simply ignoring a debt:GDP ratio of 100% and
unfunded agency mandates and derivatives exceeding
the GDP by many decades...
yeah but you forget the magic printing press
Max Keiser is the best ranter ever. Watching him trash Goldman is so entertaining!
I don't know if it's only me but the video is not showing up under the text. Just a big blnk gap until the comments section.
Germany already helped the Greeks. They prevented Stalin from conquering their nation. Greece never thanked Germany for this service. Were it not for Germany, Greece would have been part of the USSR.
If you had posted under a forum name instead of anonymously I could have called you an idiot by name.
1. "For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.." - Adolf Hitler (speech he gave at Reichstag, 4 May 1941)
2. "The word heroism I am afraid does not render the least of those acts of self-sacrifice of the Greeks, which were the defining factor in the victorious outcome of the common struggle of the nations, during WWII, for the human freedom and dignity. If it were not for the bravery of the Greeks and their courage, the outcome of WW II would be undetermined." - Winston Churchill (speech to British Parliament, 24 April 1941)
3. "Until now we used to say that the Greeks fight like heroes. Now we shall say: The heroes fight like Greeks."
- Winston Churchill (From a speech he delivered from the BBC in the first days of the Greco-Italian war)
4. "I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not live long to thank the Greek People, whose resistance decided WW II." - Joseph Stalin (From a speech of his broadcast by the Moscow radio station on 31 January 1943 after the victory of Stalingrad and the capitulation of German 6th Army Field Marshal Von Paulus)
5. "If the Russian people managed to raise resistance at the doors of Moscow to halt and reverse the German torrent, they owe it to the Greek People, who delayed the German divisions during the time they could bring us to our knees." - Georgy Constantinovich Zhoukov (Field Marshal of the Soviet Army: Quote from his memoirs on WWII)
6. "Regardless of what the future historians shall say, what we can say now, is that Greece gave Mussolini an unforgettable lesson, that she was the motive for the revolution in Yugoslavia, that she held the Germans in the mainland and in Crete for six weeks, that she upset the chronological order of all German High Command's plans and thus brought a general reversal of the entire course of the war and we won."
- Sir Robert Antony Eden (Minister of War and the Exterior of Britain 1940-1945, Prime Minister of Britain 1955-1957 - Paraphrased from a speech of his to the British Parliament on 24/09/1942)
Rep. Brad Sherman, California Democrat, asked Mr. Bernanke directly whether the Fed would consider such a strategy, especially since IMF officials endorsed it.
"We're not going to monetize the debt," Mr. Bernanke declared flatly, stressing that Congress needs to start making plans to bring down the deficit to avoid such a dangerous dilemma for the Fed.
"It is very, very important for Congress and administration to come to some kind of program, some kind of plan that will credibly show how the United States government is going to bring itself back to a sustainable position."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/25/bernanke-delivers-warnin...
This should be interesting if Bernanke follows through with it.
The political class has lots of fat to trim yet.
Tyler, how did U like the 180o turn in the market today? Goes to prove all Uncle Benny's easy money has done is prop up the stock market.
Those young people don't have much to lose. Hence the civil disobedience. American youth still have their iphones. Don't hold your piss on this one.
It'll become blinding apparent what is going on. The EU does the same thing to countries that federal govenrment does to states. When the federal government is switched over to a state of state governments by merging with candada and mexico. Then throwing the federal debt all over the states faces. It will become so apparent that default and then merging would have been the fair way to do it. But it will be seen for the scam it is. IMF gets to print nobody else does. When you're the only coutnerfeiter in the world it's a hell of a power difference to overcome.
They'll start talking about it on facebook in a couple years.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/25/california-state-legislature-...
California State Legislature to Vote on 'Cuss Free Week' Resolution
With no problems like a massive state budget deficit, politicians look to stay busy!!?
Greeks have backbone. hopefully 'merica (and rest of world) follows suite.
Unfortunately we may have no choice...
.
Dimitrios Ioannidis - tanned, rested, and ready!
CNBC? News? In the same sentence? If I worked there I would worry greatly. ComCast doesn't tolerate losers and changes there will be MASSIVE. I'll bet they shoot for a more Bloomberg type of approach. Which means a lot of the clowns will be gone.
Bye Beaker!
+10
To me, the core problem is obvious and sits right atop of the money pyramid. Centralized fractional reserve banking and debt money creation...
There will be no end to the "debt cycle" until the treausurys of all nations are once again responsible for the creation of their respected currency debt free. This would also hold government accountable for deficits and thus, hold every voting citizen accountable via the beautiful democratic system and its ballot box's...
Also, this would allow us to swithch off that monsterous productive capitol eating black hole vacuum we call interest. (or usury as it was once known)
Is this not completely obvious to anyone else? Did the United States not fight a war of independence for this very national right?
I'm tired of people here on ZH blaming socialist policy's for every damned problem under the sun. To the people who do, you sound like brainwashed puppets, ooohhh, beware the red boogeyman. Its like a trip back in time to 1955.
If the people of Greece want universal tax funded social benefits, who the hell are we to tell them otherwise. Give them the power to control money creation and instantly they are forced to take responcibility. There is a reason politicians have a hard on for central banks, they have an instant scape goat and source of infinite funds for which they are not held to account for...
When money is initially created through debt, the entire system becomes a ponzi for which ultimately, there is only one outcome... Unservicable debt...
YES FOLKS BELIEVE IT OR NOT WE DO LIVE IN A WORLD OF FINITE RESOURCES, take away the surplus of energy (most important of which is oil), and you take away the collateral for the exponential growth in credit required to sustain the system. Even if you don't believe in peak oil, please believe that there are 3 billion plus new consumers out there and they want to live like Americans and who's gonna stop them...
Until banking is reduced to providing only its most fundamental role in democratic and capitalist society's, which is to provide capitol to credit worthy citizens. We will repeat the same shit over and over again. (hmm, reminds me of a famous Einstein quote I read somewhere).
If the Greeks should socialize anything, they should start with the banks. Let the Treasury create money and control interest rates, let the banks provide that capitol through the fractional reserve system interest free and only make profit on accounting/service fees.
This is the only way our economy's can work in a future of no growth or negative growth and still continue to function and to provide its citizens with an excellent quality of life.
And after all, banks are here for us. AND UNLESS YOU BELIEVE IN INFINITE GROWTH, there is no other way. How can we allow this shit to go on and condem our children to the same nightmare. If capitalism with all its social and technological benifits is not providing a better future for the next generations then what the fuck is the point?
So come on, tell me I'm wrong, give me your hate cos I'm over zero hedge... Most readers are no better than the CNBC viewers you all love to hate so much... Its a bit cliche to say this but what the hell, WAKE UP...
"If the Greeks should socialize anything, they should start with the banks. Let the Treasury create money and control interest rates, let the banks provide that capitol through the fractional reserve system interest free and only make profit on accounting/service fees." CORRECTION. Let the banks provide loans and only make profit on accounting/service fees. Profits from interest earned from those loans can be paid into retirement funds, healthcare etc. etc.
Whatever...
... or, you could use gold as money.
A gold standard would not work any better than a fiat one. Unless a nation can mine enough gold to keep up with the needed monetary growth. So just substitute oil with gold as the resourse of choice for future wars...
Currency on a gold standard would need to be devalued eventually. The problem is not fiat money, its that the present "democratic" system has no control over a supranational centralized banking system that cannot be held accountable for the debasement of OUR MONEY by a voting public.
The ability for central banks to provide our elected officials with the money they need to fulfill ridiculous promises that only serve to line their pockets is they very key to thier power and the sole cause of corruption in our nations governments.
I would invest in gold myself but when this game has finally played itself out, we will not be returning to a gold standard and if we do, well... All I have to say is 1933. You will hand it in for a new currency and they will revalue it after...
The house always wins... For as long as we allow it anyway...
No. Competing currencies, backed with something tangible, is the answer. A fiat currency is theft over time. A certificate, redeemable for gold, has nothing in common with fiat promises. The whole mining concept is bogus because the other commodities that individuals will purchase with gold will freely change in value according to supply and demand.
In 1933 the citizens should have declared a reset. They should have done it in 1913, actually. They should do it now.
A gold standard is vastly different from fiat money for one reason, gold cannot be made on a printing press. and as far as mining enough gold to keep up with the needed monetary growth, prices can adjust themselves to make up for the shortfall. its not perfect, but the inflations and deflations in a gold standard are minor, relatively painless and self correcting, unless the bull-in-the-china-shop AKA government decides to step in.
Actually gold is infinitly fractional. That means its value is based on weight and you can make it smaller and smaller so no need to "inflate" the money supply.
The value then would simply be determined by population size sense all capital is really just a production of labor.
All this did not help Spain. Gold as a currency is not fundamental different from any other type of currency.
The issues Spain had to face, relying on Gold, are the same that countries are facing now.
If gold is infinitely fractional (which you are correct) then does that not defeat the purpose of a gold standard?
Are we going to redeem a dollar at the bank for a spec of gold dust simply because gold is real, even if you need a microscope to see it?
All I want answered is one question, what is the "true value" I hear so much about in gold speak. In nominal terms? $5000? $50,000?
No one can answer that because like fiat currency, golds value is all about trust and demand and like you said is infinitely fractional. So apples or oranges? Gold or fiat, both infinitely inflatable yet I'm told to believe gold is money because it is a finite resourse, but at the same time infinitely fractional...
Whats the demand for gold fillings in the future, chunky bling bling rings or gold plated electrical connectors. Thats golds real value...
But i give up, questioning gold on ZH is mutiny...
i am not saying "buy gold", i am saying that no stable society will ever exist without a commodity backed currency. fiat currencies ALWAYS end in disaster. this time is NOT different.
But every currency ended in disaster.
I repeat again: Spain had a full gold currency (no debasing, nothing at all) And they did not even run out of gold supply. They finished down the gutter.
Precious metals stand the test of time as an exchange medium because they are not reproduce-able. They stand the test of time - everything else rots or rusts.
What is the value of gold? It is the same answer for the value of a home in any given zip code. What someone is willing to exchange for it.
Holding physical gold for the long term is a bet that other mediums of exchange will fail. The purpose of gold is not to have gold, but to maintain wealth for future, unknown purchases.
I personally hold relatively very little in precious metals because I prefer to have the items I need to survive certain, upcoming calamities: storable food, firearms, shelter in a "secure" location, etc. Right now I can acquire the highest quality items in these categories - bartering with precious metals down the road is a gamble because I might not be able to 1) find the items that will fit my needs 2) exchange at what I consider a fair "price" with the individual that has what I want.
But all these items take up space and cannot be carried without mechanical assistance. So a proper ratio of "high value" coins versus commodities that I can store up safely somewhere must be met according to what I imagine the future will look like.
History demonstrates that having precious metals is a good idea. War is always right around the corner - we've just had it too easy for too long.
Centralized banking control and its usury, not interest per se, is the problem. Interest rates should be set by private agreements - not colluding political and financial scientists.
Socialist policies always fail. Capitalism, which is simply the protection of private property and free exchange, is commonly scapegoated for corruption. Socialist politicians promise freebies to get votes - but in practice we see the siphoning of public funds into the hands of the corrupt. The free market is better at providing services because of competition to provide a superior product at a lower price.
Politicians create malinvestment because it is not their own money. A citizen will try to find the most efficient means to invest the fruits of their labor, such as setting the interest rate as a return equal to potential risk from defaulting borrowers. The free market is simply allowing supply and demand to work on their own - because resources are finite. A fiat currency inherently defies supply and demand. Central bankers can provide unlimited funds - only public perception of value reigns limits their corruption. Because of this taxes are used as a tool of social control to manipulate prices and transfer wealth. This was punished by death throughout history.
When corruption is stamped out we will have job creation and stable growth. But as long as the public remains in a zombie trance the socialist politicians and the financial alchemists will continue to transfer wealth via engineered booms and busts.
Full reserve banking and a currency backed with something tangible, being immediately redeemable, is the only solution. Current legal tender laws are constricting free trade - competing currencies is the answer. People expecting a free lunch should be allowed to sink or swim once and for all - just like the banks that know they will get a bailout.
In America you have the right to produce and live, and the right to shutdown and die. Few here on ZH need to wake up.
The "free market"... Oh, you mean like superior US healthcare at low competitive prices right? France, Sweden, Britain, Canada, Australia bla bla bla? Yeah, i know... Evil backward "red" nations right? No such thing as capitalism there? Cos they have "socialist" systems and capitalism cannot exist in nations where the citizens actually give a damn about the welfare of people other than themselves, and so, others give a damn about them... Evil, evil, evil... You know, they even pay taxes for medicine and retirement even though they do not always use it, funny that... They do it because one day they will and it wont matter if they are too old or sick to work... Jeez, scary stuff hey... They could be spending their taxes paying Goldman sachs bonuses or on military adventures in middle eastern, European, Asian, South American or even African nations... Cos thats how capitalists spend money, only on government (socialist) programs that kill foreigners, AMERICA FUCK YEAH!!! And here I was believing that to be a capitalist, you invest some profits in the upkeep and maintanence of the machines and the physical and mental health and wellbeing of the labor force... But no, thats socialism... We capitalists work for property rights and run our machines and workforce into the ground. We don't work for a better lifestyle, not even for our children god dammit, they can work away their lives too... Forget the word "socialist" and replace with "public", Like schools... I wonder did you go to "socialist" school? I didn't but I went to a public one... Has a less threatening tone to it don't you think... What about fire dept's and police? Argh, all socialist ideas me tells ya... Keep buying the "cant be a capitalist and a socialist" bullshit... Because to me, pure capitalism is great because it is the only ECONOMIC MODEL that can provide the capitol for the SOCIAL MODEL of equality and wellbeing for all, even the poor, sick and elderly... All we need now is a functioning banking model and things could be lookin swell....Tell me, as a devout American capitalist who don't take nuttin from nobody and don't give nuttin to nobody, you must be putting money away for your folks retirement or are you gonna set them up in your house when they are old cos aint nobody gonna look after no one else right, even if they payed taxes all there life to fund these so called "entitlements". Entitlements like socialism being another nice word with negative conotations brought to you by the US media on behalf of the government funded CIA psyops (shhh, tax payer funded so CIA are really SOCIALISTS ahhhh)... But I'd rather live in Greece than the United States... Lets see how that so called "capitalist" mind set works for you when all you capitol has been stolen from you... Just curious, do Americans even talk to their neighbours any more or are they too scared these days that they might be reds, or to busy working 12 hour days, 6 days a weeks to even care cos on sundays they are to tired to even leave the house, so they'll pop valium and sleep on the couch whilst the kids are playing sony in the room eating twinkies and drinking coke and the wife is at a "gym" with your boss... Its the American capitalist dream, fuck those 35 hour week socialists, with paid holidays, who live longer and use a hell of a lot less prozac... drop the bomb on them already... Ok I've ranted enough and need sleep... But yeah, lets agree to dis agree then ;-)
I'm trying to agree with you now, actually. I'm not sure how sincere you are but I will assume you have heartfelt intentions. You hit many times upon corruption. That is the problem we face. The breakdown of the rule of law. Exploited workers have a boss that needs to be put in jail. That way good bosses can rise. With good bosses they invest in the productivity of their workers: educational opportunities, great benefits for employees and their families, company parties, etc. Happy workers = more business.
But we live in a slave society because corrupt individuals are not prosecuted. Instead of good company owners being able to invest in their employees the money is taken from them and "spread around" through inefficient gov't initiatives. The politicians that create programs are only creating more intentional waste and corruption. The only way to remedy this is to keep politicians from taking the money from the incorruptible producers. Slavery was dying from being crushed under its own weight - plantation owners realized they had much higher productivity if they paid their workers. What a concept! Socialist programs promote waste and the enrichment of evil men because they stifle competition. We need to prosecute the bastards!
Why give fish to a man when you can teach him how to fish on his own and give him the dignity of providing for himself!
Sleep well.
Yeah thanks buddy, I just had a granny nap and feel a whole lot better, serious haha, just having a Howard Beale moment...
Fed up with labels and rules, thats capitalist thats socialist kind of thing, it distracts from the big picture...
What happened to doing whats plain old fashioned right and good for the majority? If not for us then for the next generation that we're committing to slavery...
It sounds stupid but like the beaten down nomad archetype we see in the movies, eg. white rabbit haha... I wonder if we will we wake up 30 years from now to watch our children repeat the same bullshit and be haunted by the fact that we had a chance to set things right and we were to scared to take it...
I'm not talking about a kamikaze mission in a piper cherokee, more like stealing a bus and stopping it sideways on an LA freeway in rush hour and calling the radio station for an interview type shit... Everyone honk your horn if your fed up, its small in the scale of things but its something...
Anyway, I know we all have more in common than we think and time will reveal all... Peace ;-)
Doing "whats good for the majority" will always lead back to slavery. What's really best for the majority is to let each individual do what's best for himself, as long as he does not aggress against another or his property. Remove the notion that any person or group has a legal right to aggress against any other person or property, eg. taxation. Instill the notion that all humans are free and sovereign, and then let them voluntarily interact to solve their own problems. All law derived from one law: That not one has a right, under any circumstance, to aggress against another or his property.
Some reading this will correctly recognize it as Rothbardian anarcho-capitalism. Others will think its lunacy. That's fine, people thought Columbus was a loon as well. But if you look back over history, there has been a progressive shift of power from the elites to the common. We take two steps forward, and one step back, but as time marches on, the common gain more and more power. Actually we always had it, the elites cannot rule without our consent, we just have been slow to recognize this fact. Plus revolution is inconvenient and uncomfortable.
Government has never been about the good of the common man. Government is, and always has been, a societal structure to protect the elites. The shift from Monarchy to Democracy was really a con-job to placate common men who were starting to realize that they did not have to give their consent. What better way to gain consent than perpetrate the myth that the elites ruled by consent. Its a pretty dull person who still believes that today.
Freedom and power for the common man is taking a step backward right now. Perhaps this will be the last step backward before we finally throw off the yoke for good. The idea is out there, the genie is out of the bottle. The world is actually round, not flat. We have the power, the knowledge just needs to be spread. Go to Mises.org and read "For a New Liberty".
wake the roach: I appreciate your take :)
Thanks buddy, fight the power ay? haha ;-)
The mailed fist versus the invisible hand--succinctly and brilliantly defined!
The official word game now being played in Amerika in Wonderland—obscure the word and confuse the idea—IMO begins to parallel the old Soviet Union where words meant exactly what the Kremlin chose them to mean—to confuse westerners trying to understand the Communist system.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
Words matter. As Richard M. Weaver said: Ideas Have Consequences. Words create outcomes--all the way from freedom to a collective prison. +1000 Waterwings.
good thing us americans self medicate. facing up to reality is such a bitch to deal with.
We have a bill (AB 390) winding its way through the state legislature that ought to help with that.
Arrived in the workers' paradise of Piraeus in 1982
for honeymoon after flying all night without sleep.
They were rioting and striking back then.
Took another day to fuel, load and board the Biblical Ports
of Call cruise while old folks fainted in the heat of the docks.
Papandreou, whose grandfather was also Prime Minister,
a schoolmate who knows better.
Thanks to thug unions and gangster government,
Greece basically ungovernable as justice and law break down.
Anarchy in the streets and beerhalls that powered Hitler.
Coming soon to Amerika if we keep killing freedoms and markets.
Greece, cradle of democracy to crematorium in two millennia...
.
Congressman Ron Paul asked Ben Bernanke in testimony yesterday if the Fed may be convertly planning a bailout of Greece. In response Bernanke lost his kindly professorial facial expression. “These specific allegations you’ve made,” Bernanke responded to laughs, “I think are absolutely bizarre.”
Paul’s thrust is the gauntlet of the accusers of the cartel carrying the charge to the front. It reminds one of a British royalist governor’s 1760s description of James Otis. Wrote Governor Francis Bernard: “He is by nature a passionate, violent, and desperate man, which qualities sometimes work him up to an absolute frenzy.” The Massachusetts lawyer James Otis was the most formidable voice to raise early on against the Parliament’s imposition of the Stamp Act, an opposition which led to the separation of the colonies from England.
Reading the provisions of the Stamp Act from its half a penny to 10 pound taxes “for every skin…for every pack of such cards…for every such pamphlet and paper contained in half a sheet…for every advertisement…for every almanac or calendar…” and the provisions for felony, “and shall suffer death,” raise in me such anger that can only be explained with my anger at Benjamin Shalom Bernanke’s smug, arrogant refusal to answer truthfully the questions of a United States representative.
For those who would take on the Obama administation, the name of Ron Paul, after the CPAC straw poll victory, has moved to the front row.
Comments made on a recent Huffington Post column by Jane Hamsher: “The Ron Paul types are so disgusted by the Palin supporters usurping the Tea Party movement, they’re taking to calling them “teaocons.’”
Says Hamsher: “there’s trouble brewing between the Ron Paul libertarians who staged the first modern tea party in 2007 by dumping tea into Boston Harbor and the neocon war hawks led by Sarah Palin who are furiously trying to hijack their message.”
Hamsher said there is “a riff between the anti-tax, pro-civil rights libertarians who started the tea parties and the corporatist neocon grifters of the GOP who are now trying to swoop in and capitalize on all of the hype. And in the irony of ironies, tea party-identified candidates are trying to oust Ron Paul from his Texas House seat.
“Paul appeared on Rachel Maddow last night,” said Hamsher, “to speak about it. Rachel asked him about his relationship to the tea parties, and he said: ‘I think the message gets a little bit diluted when a lot of people come in and the Republican Party wants to make sure that maybe there’s a Neocon type of influence.’”
Well said, Ron Paul. It shows what an expert he is in explaining how the Republican Party is trying to get the neocons into the tea party movement--using the Palin image and the grassroots tea party strength, later to be managed by the bankers and corporate rulers of both political parties. But, IMO, they made a mistake in enlisting Sarah Palin, an Israel-firster with absolutely no depth of material on any issue. And, if anyone should dispute this, just read her speech to the so-called tea party convention in Nashville. That was the time if she was going to be a leader to give some depth… She didn’t.
Here, here! If there are any real grass roots in the Tea Party they were intentionally over-fertilized by fascist interests (corporate+gov't) to divert and control popular fervor. The Tea Party doesn't really exist. Soviet purges and trials invented fictitious parties to control public opinion. Same dirty tricks.
new here! obviously i barely got through 10th grade. but i follow machael like a dumb dog. her presence on meet the press NBC's sky rockets the rating on those mornings. she is really broadening her appeal with such potential leaders as ron paul. he also came on amy goodman, democracy now! which i think covers global news like none other. i like the support with dr. paul. the only thing i find troubling is the son rand paul being supported with palin endorsement for his campaign in kentucky (?) not fond, trust of that combination. probably my problem. World Focus kinda like BBC, global coverage. just had roben farzad on speaking about greece. i think all american msm covering “news” is presented with so much distortion and sensationalized. but it seems all these different opinions are pointing toward GS, etc. and their blatant greed and the mother ships are sinking and they just diss their actions. what did he say wall st.'s middle name is conflict.
Politicially, neither Ron Paul nor Rand Paul can reject Palin’s endorsement—it would be like rejecting thousands of Republicans who love Sarah Palin, primarily because she has taken strong stands against Obama. But if asked, politically they could disagree with some of her positions. If Rand Paul were to say, I just don’t like her, then he might just as well give up running for office and go home. It’s over.
Pretty soon though, with her support of people such as John McCain, Palin’s support won’t mean anything one way or the other.
VB!
Glad you are around here posting. I have learned so much from reading the ZH articles and especially the comments. JR is a great one to follow.
How come nobody is talking about Ukraine's potential to default? Their CDS are more than twice that of Greece, right under Argentina and Venezuela. Wouldnt Ukraine possibly be more problematic as far as geopolitics is concerned?
http://www.cmavision.com/market-data#riskiest
Ukraine has no beaches, picturesque islands, no ancient architectue, isn't as photogenic as Greece on TV Media.
"How come nobody is talking about Ukraine's potential to default?"
Well, Ukraine is outside of European's civilized world. For too long, their people were conditioned to live under very adversed economic and political conditions. It is like in Mexico.
The only serious concern about Ukraine is its territorial integrity.
So much talk about nothing by people who knows nothing.
Let us look at Greece. It is a socialist country. Any serious & honest scholar of socialism knows very well that a) Socialist breeds runaway corruption and fraud; b) Politically and economically, socialism is not viable in a long-run; c) Eventually, any socialist society ends in a totalitarian regime.
In a case of Greece, they are in a very difficult situation. There is no peaceful way out of this situation. Neither Greece political elite nor populous are capable of taking necessary harsh/decisive actions now before Greece will drift into a political vacuum when extremists will be able to seize the power.
The only way out of the situation, as I see it, is a military coup.
PS
The USA are also in a bad shape and, since US arm forces are very limited in numbers, a "military" solution is not an option in the USA.
tyler,
we need fight club in real life , nation wide. let's get to it.
Now there is a social movement. Note to youth in America, the last devaluation of the dollar, circa Nixon, brought us the "dual income family home." Could the next cause "dual generation income family home." Note the austere pay for the educated Greek youth, forcing them to live with their parents. Is this the IMF's plan for the US? Minus the trust fund babies of course.
Easy credit is the reason for the Great Depression and the (i'm going to call it) current Great Repression. Who created easy credit?
ZH- You speak strong words about how bad CNBC is. Yet your actions indicate otherwise as you frequently feature links and even articles about the network we all love to hate.
Why not put your money where your mouth is and place a moratorium on all things CNBS. You would be doing your readers and the community at large a great service.
F CNBC
Anonymous, ignoring CNBC would be like ignoring Hitler in the 1930s.
"Greece is also mulling a further increase in fuel taxes, while the EU has also asked Athens to cut one of two extra months of pay that public-sector workers now get over and above their normal 12-month salary—a move the government is resisting."
WTF?
Yes, actually Greeks have a 14-month salary, they get an extra pay check on Christmas and one when they go on vacations (often called Easter and Vacations bonus). I'm not too sure but I believe some other European countries have 13-month salaries.
Yes it's crazy however every time this is mentioned the favourite counter argument is that the minimum wage in Greece is only €650 which is very low compared to other eurozone members, so employees need an extra push. This salary scheme exists from well before Greece entered the eurozone.
People tend to forget that a gold standard can be debased which is essentially "printing"
So is a gold standard better than a fiat system?
Here is the real question: Can monetary officials rise above the human condition to rig the game and run an honest monetary system. I think not!
Apples or oranges, it really doesn't mattter.
Which is why debasing a currency warranted the death penalty.
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