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Prepare To Give Up All Private Data For Any Gold Purchase Over $100
A week ago, when we reported on a move by the Dutch central bank that ordered a pension fund to forcibly reduce its gold holdings, we speculated that "this latest gold confiscation equivalent event is most certainly coming to a banana republic near you." And while we got the Banana republic right, the event that we are about to describe is not necessarily identical. It is much worse. A bill proposed in the State of Washington (House Bill 1716), by representatives Asay, Hurst, Klippert, Pearson, and Miloscia, whose alleged purpose is to regulate secondhand gold dealers, seeks to capture "the name, date of birth, sex, height, weight, race, and address and telephone number of the person with whom the transaction is made" or said otherwise, of every purchaser of gold in the state of Washington. Furthermore, if passed, Bill 1716 will record "a complete description of the property pledged, bought, or consigned, including the brand name, serial number, model number or name, any initials or engraving, size, pattern, and color or stone or stones" and of course price. But the kicker: if a transaction is mode for an amount over $100, which means one tenth of an ounce of golds, also required will be a "signature, photo, and fingerprint of the person with whom the transaction is made." In other words, very soon Washington state will know more about you than you know about yourself, if you dare to buy any gold object worth more than a C-note. How this proposal is supposed to protect consumers against vulture gold dealers we don't quite get. Hopefully someone will explain it to us. We do, however, get how Americans will part with any and all privacy if they were to exchange fiat for physical. And in a police state like America, this will likely not be taken lightly, thereby killing the gold trade should the proposed Bill pass, and be adopted elsewhere.
While we are confident that representatives Asay, Hurst, Klippert, Pearson, and Miloscia have no clue why they are even proposing this bill, we would also be delighted to find out which moneyed interests they represent, and what happens to precious metal trading in America should Bill 1716 become a legal precedent which is effectively the first step before the final implementation of Executive Order 6102 version 2.
Full bill (pdf)
h/t Brandon Schroer
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Over my Dead Rotting Prostate. And that dubalicious North Korean.
It's the Chimp and the Frog. We are the frog...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVE60zwXx1k
(Watch it to the end; it is soooo primal.)
And....this is something you spend your time watching?
I'm actually not replying to your comment, I just wanted my post near the top to address this pressing issue. It's my understanding that the "Second Hand" store they are referring to are Pawn Shops. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they are referring to coin shops or the likes. I live in Washington State so I'll call my local PM store and see what they know. I hope I'm right. The reason I came to this conclusion was, apparently California had passed a similar bill some time ago and the focus was on Pawn shops (for the obvious reason; selling stolen property), although if someone from California could verify this. I could be wrong on all accounts.
It would appear, as far as California Pawn shops go, you are correct:
http://www.ehow.com/list_6640127_california_s-pawn-loan-laws.html
My guess is that the vast majority of states have laws on the books that require persons/entities engaged in the business of buying/selling gold to register with the state police. In my state, arkansas, our laws are codified at 17-23-101, et seq. for those interested. But, it appears that: (a) the seller must be engaged in purchasing gold from the general public [the loophole should be pretty obvious on this one]; (b) it applies to transactions over fifty dollars ($50.00); (c) the seller has to send the transaction logs (requires id, fingerprint, and signature on form prepared by police) every week to the police [who would conceivably keep the logs in perpetuity]; but, (d) it does not apply to transactions involving "coins" or "pawn brokers".
Essentially, we only parrot other states' laws 99% of the time... I would guess this is, effectively, a uniform law. However, I would think the fact that coins are exempted is at least a little feather in the hat of the general assembly if they're trying to protect people from getting rid of jewelry and are also attempting to remotely narrowly tailor the law... [not sure why bars of precious metals wouldn't be exempted also].
That said, this development is troubling for me because I have plans on starting a pawn shop, in part, to build a significant holding of precious metals without the prying eyes of the state... Hopefully we can resist parroting the removal of the exemption for pawn shops... (many are making a shit ton of money atm exchanging cash for gold).
PS, our law (of course) has a pretty funny omission, 17-23-205 "required information to seller" only requires the buyer to notify the seller the price per ounce of the precious metal "being currently paid" [doesn't say market rate or tie the price to an index] and to weigh the metal in full sight of the seller [doesn't say the seller has to see the reading]. Umm... guys.... what about the % composition of precious metals in the item being sold? lol... genius...
PS 2, these laws may be wolves in sheeps' clothing, but shit... they're so poorly written (hopefully other states are this bad) that I wouldn't be too worried... I suppose also that they're just prepping us for the coming "changes" to the law that close all the loopholes and loose ends...
The definition of second had property in section 2 sub-section 7 says "...except postage stamps, coins that are legal tender, bullion..." -- it sounds like the "except" in this sentence refers to coins and bullion as well as stamps. American eagles thus being excluded from these requirements on the grounds that they are legal tender. Does anyone else interpret this section in this manner - or am I deluding myself with false hope?
Yes, I interpret the section same as you.
No, you are not deluding yourself with false hope.
The proposed legislation in it's entirety has nothing to do with coins, bullion and the like, but rather precious metals and other items tendered into hock as per pawning and associated collateralized borrowings.
Apparently of some 338 comments all but 5 or 10 are from individuals who either cannot or care not to read the salient information dutifully provided before ranting of topics other than that at hand. T'is definitely hard to connect even a single dot when ignorance prevails.
So, thank you all in the immediate preceding thread for the breath of maturity and sanity.
Brings back one of my favorite admonishments to highly paid professionals acting in a manner behoving the respect of an adolescent;
"Grow the fuck up."
There's something wrong here.
From the desk of Rep. "Fraulein" Katrina Asay:
http://hrc.leg.wa.gov/news/legislature/an-email-message-from-rep-katrina...
Addressing Home Burglaries
At the request of Federal Way, I introduced legislation to address the growing number of home robberies. Due to the high value of precious metals right now, there is a growing number of “cash for gold” storefront businesses and transactions in our state. Unfortunately, this trend corresponds with a significant increase in the number of burglaries involving theft of precious metals, mostly jewelry.
My legislation, House Bill 1716 (originally House Bill 1213), would put in place stricter standards relating to transactions involving property consisting of gold and other precious metals. The bill would require secondhand dealers buying precious metals to:
Just as the Legislature addressed scrap metal theft a couple years ago, it must put in place safeguards for precious metals. My legislation will begin to crack down on those criminals stealing high-value jewelry and other items then pawning them for instant cash.
If passed, this Bill will apply to any business that purchases gold from the public, not just Pawn Shops. (Wonder what motivates this women?)
IMO that's a big copout. Even though the bill does exclude coins, it's still wrong for several reasons:
1. Another set of regulatory/societal burden on those that want to perform legitimate transactions.
2. Loss of privacy for those that want to perform legitimate transactions.
3. It makes the assumption that people don't break into people's homes to steal gold coins, stamps. etc. Not sure if there are any stats on the subject - but I'm quite sure that assumption is wrong.
4. It sets a bad precedent. Later if/when there is a rash of burlaries and pawn-shop sales of coins/stamps/etc - it'll make it that much easier to just add these to the existing list.
5. It's an excuse to allow for bad security / detective work. If the cops were doing their jobs right (e.g. investigating pawn shops to seek out stolen goods), and people were properly protecting their goods, then this wouldn't be necessary.
6. It's morally wrong to steal things. It's not morally wrong to buy or sell stolen goods, if you don't know they're stolen. So it's not right to punish such people (e.g. the pawn shop owners).
UPDATE
"Public Safety & Emergency Preparedness Committee" HB1716
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2011-12/Pdf/Bill%20Reports/Hou...
Brief Summary of Bill
?
?Expands the definition of "secondhand dealers" to include transient secondhand
businesses.
Requires secondhand dealers to maintain specific detailed records for transactions
involving precious metals for a total of three years.
Prohibits the removal of any previous metal property bought or received in pledge or
by consignment by a secondhand dealer from the place of business for a period of 45
days after the receipt of that property, except when redeemed by or returned to the
owner.
Makes it an unranked class C felony to commit a second or subsequent offense that
involves property consisting of a precious metal.
Govts various will simply use this (and other) new lists to identify where to go for their tax money. This is just saving them time and money.
If nothing else it's efficient.
Prepare to hand over the bulk of any gains you make in pm's.
Move offshore peeps, move offshore.
This is stupid gestapo shit.
This is why you BUY insurance for.
(Car,Home, extra liability).
All separate pieces that are over the max amount, you take a private policy out on them. Get a picture, and a Jewelers assessment on replacement value.
There, done...
Legislature OUT of it.
Big flaw in the bill. THEY'LL MELT IT DOWN. Good luck finding it on ebay after that.
Waiting period for payments over $100: That will go over real well with the folks as prices rapidly rise.
I like the fking imbeciles logic: if a government does something, it must be a good reason for it and it will definitely benefit people.
If one goes to buy jeweleries (let us say a $25,000 piece), all what someone needs is money. They take your check, hold for you your item(s) before the check is cleared, and it is all. If one pays cash then you got your piece rightaway, again without anything else. No a photo ID, no fingerprints, nothing. This how any business always has been done in any country except for communist and fascist ones.
If ones goes to a bank to get some money (let us say $1,000), all what is needed are the account name and the account number. They also ask to SHOW some picture ID. Again, no a photo ID, no fingerprints, no any personal info for any records.
How come did a $100-gold piece become more valuable than a $25,000 diamond ring?
One more piece of info, the first time I gave my fingerprints was when I was investigated for a Pentagon security clearance.
It is mind-boggling how people are stupid!
Have you tried to open a bank account since 9/11? They take your fingerprints.
Bull. On what planet?
I believe it's a voluntary program that banks opt in to with special kickbacks. If you don't believe me, try opening an account at MarkleBank in Markle, Indiana or Tinker Federal Credit Union in OKC, Oklahoma.
My Ass, what state or Bank is requiring this?.
I would DEMAND in writing the reasons for this.
Then I would seek counsel.
I've opened accounts since 9/11. I've never been asked for fingerprints. For goodness sake, look at the proliferation of online banking. I seriously doubt ING or USAA is sending out fingerprint kits to all of their account holders.
I wear mittens.
Obviously, an online bank won't be able to opt in to the program.
Just tell them to put it where the sun don't shine. Soon enough, they will be opting out again.
Somewhat off topic, but this is all obsolete anyway. The face scan technology is more valuable at this point and any bank has at least a dozen cameras in it. YES, your face has been scanned if you've gotten a drivers license within the last 2-3 years. If you don't believe it, you're confused.
I am in Texas, last time I went to get a newDL pic, I got thumbed, along with pic.
I also was asked if I was a CCP holder, and I said yes I am, Why do you ask?.
The lady said you did not hear or pay attention to it, but when you gave me your number a machine behind me beeped.
That automatically told me you were, and if you had said NO, she pointed to a HP Officer, and said I would be leaving in cuffs, even if not carrying.
I said whatever, but I was not stupid enough to walk in packing.
She then told me NEXT trip for a Lic pic, I would be Iris Scanned.
I looked at her, laughed, and said then this is the last time I will have a legal license, because no one is getting a retina scan on me that is/has anything to to with the Govt.
Prints are good enough.(although alterable and changeable).
She said, well its coming, I said fine, bye, won't be seeing me ever again.
Have a nice day.
Not mine. What bank are you talking about?
while I haven't had banking accounts for years, I do know that if you have a cheque drawn on a bank and want to cash it at the counter, they will fingerprint you, as well a charge a fee for not being their customer - this is a long time habit of most big banks.
For years you HAD to have a checking acct or you could not cash any check at a Bank, w/out an acct there.
Test
Yes, I did open TWO bank accounts after the 9/11. One in NH and one in MA. Nobody asked anything.
Did you read the proposed law? It was not written in Washington State. Too much demagoguery and propaganda were inserted into the bill. It is a try-balloon from Washington, DC.
dwdollar, are you sure your are living in the USA?
Just spoke to the coin shop where I purchase PM. Yes, indeed, this Bill, if passed, will apply not to just pawn shops, but any business that purchases gold from the general public. So, this appears to be the real deal.
Massachusetts tried something like this at the state level. It was squashed because, aside from the punitive bookkeeping, it also applied to "second hand dealers" for which antiques dealers are included. The Mass. town that I live in recently enacted a nearly identical law that was first introduced and failed with the state legislature.
The people who author and pass laws like this have no experience in business nor in the far reaching unintended consequences of their foolishness brought on by their desire to control commerce. This law is a restraint of free trade and will produce little results aimed at stopping criminal activity. What it does do is make slaves of legitimate business people to perform hours of extra record keeping for no compensation. In other words, the State commands you to work more hours for no increase in earnings.
Last year after our local by-law was passed I spoke with our police chief, who had sponsored the law, about what it would do to the Antiques trade (run it out of town) which he disagreed with. I explained to him that he did not understand the ramifications of what he had done. Of course he said he completely understood the law which was "designed to prevent local house break ins".
In fact the Washington State law will make it necessary for any used goods/antiques dealer to go through these dictates for gold leafed mirrors (about 1/100 oz. of gold) , gold decorated dinner plates, jewelry and tea boxes that sometimes have small silver mounts by all jewelry dealers, all coin dealers etc. to follow the dictates or face the full force of the law. I bought 40 sterling silver child's mugs at an out of state publicly advertised auction. The local by-law and Wash. proposed law does/would require me to get the auctioneers ID and fingerprints, write a description of the auctioneer and make copious notes on each item purchased (about a full days work!). I would then be required to hold the items off the market as required by law and would be prevented from having any repairs done on a significant portion of my inventory.
I presented my case before the Board of Selectmen illustrating why the new law was absurd, pointing out numerous facets that would end the antiques trade in town. When I finished my presentation the Board members quite clearly understood the flaws in the new law. I thanked the board for listening to me and informed them that IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS WOULD I OBEY THE NEW LAW.
About a week later I received a very polite call from my police Chief asking if I would stop by to discuss the by-law and see if we couldn't come up with some changes that would enable him to do his job well and not be a burden on the local dealers. At the end of our conversation the Chief stated he would not enforce most of the new by-law and perhaps work with me to change portions of it. I am now working to have the existing law repealed as a year has passed with no indication of the town doing anything to eliminate it.
We are living in the new AGE OF CONTROLL FREAKS. Fight the law being passed or refuse to follow if passed. It is clearly Restraint of Free Trade and violates anti-slavery law.
Agreed,Fight it, if you lose, do not OBEY it.
Fight the Power.
i posted this bill in a thread on wednesday....when i called one of the folks mentioned in the bill, she could not answer your or my question as to whether it applied only to pawn shops or all precious metals dealers...as in she did not know
Everybody has got some kind of kink.
First they will send you a letter of demand with all details listed.
Then they will pitch up at your door with your photo for ID and if your serial numbers aren't accounted for they will demand that you hand it over, all in the national interest and all because no one could see this coming.
Anyone holding physical gold at home is a mug, a piggy bank just waiting to be emptied.
If you want to keep what's your you MUST go offshore.
Otherwise you've already lost it.
This is the age of technology. This is when you will wish you had never heard of Facebook or other 'social media' and posted all that free information for all the world to see.
roosevelt confiscated gold as everyone knows, what is less known is that he also confiscated silver
Actually it was the SecTreas and applied to >50koz and/or >2 futures contracts. So yeah, they grabbed bullion but didn't outlaw it by any stretch.
http://www.silver-investor.com/charlessavoie/hoardersofsilver.pdf
That is a list of individuals who held large spot or forward silver positions - so-called "silver hoarders" - that the Treasury department compiled and delivered to the Senate. There is nothing there, or anywhere else that I can find, to indicate that silver was ever confiscated along with gold at that time. Executive Orders 6102, 6111, and 6260 make no mention of silver at all. If you have a reference, I'd be interested to see it.
No Silver was confiscated, it was used for coinage thru 65.
wrong
Refer to Franklin Roosevelt's August 9, 1934 Executive Order 6814:
quote
roosevelt confiscated gold as everyone knows
and it was the brain dead that turned it in
and those who had problems chewing gum and walking
noone was ever convicted ,, where does all the pre 1930 gold coins come from.
the can pass laws until they are blue in the face look what outlawing whisky did for um ,
a bloody black market , look for the same
If you want to keep what's your you MUST go offshore.
What will that accomplish?, any bank will give it up to the Sammy.(not to mention trusting the Bank of choice, I cannot think of one in the world I would trust not to turn me if the Sammy wanted into my accounts, or SD boxes).The SWISS screwed it for good.
You want to keep it, GPS it.
ROFL. Wait a minute, that's not a football. That there were kids watching all that was priceless.
Discovery Channel Bitchez!
They know who has guns and Katrina proved that they use those records to enforce confiscations. Now they'll have records of who purchased $100 or more in precious metals.
Note that there is no mention of the party affiliation of those presenting the bill, which means they are Democrats.
Was there a party affiliation associated with the Patriot Act? If not it must have been those damn Democrats again.
Anyone that thinks this is a Democrat or a Republican issue is too fucking stupid to survive.
Just so ya know...I junked you for being an asshole.
Regards ;-)
Just so you know, I was going to junk you for being too stupid to survive, but, of course, you've made it this far; so instead I just junked you for being a shit.
Warmest, steaming regards
And with that, I've reached the pinnacle of my life...you're like a fuckin cherry or sumpin...LOL.
If I could afford it, I would hire the both of you to be writers for me.
FGB
Heh, you must be desperate. But of all the trolls and commentors posting here I am honoured to have 'made your list'.
WTF tell you what, since we're all now stuck in this 'Global Labour Market' I'll make you an offer; take the going rate of pay on your continent for this type of work, and I'll do it for half of that. If it displaces a unionized position, I'll do it for a third of the going rate. Shit, if you can design a derivative to attach to the contract that fucks the salary of some god forsaken unionized health care worker or fat public sector employee, I'll do the job for a fifth of their salary, and I don't require benefits either.
Do we have a deal?
Oh, wait a second, I have this other contract that needs completion that I've been procrastinating on. Sure, it's conceivable that someone could be injured or die if I don't get this information out there as soon as possible, but tell you what, pay me twice the amount they're offering and you can jump the queue.
My GHOD, I can't wait until we privatize breathable air!
Regards
So tell me, whats it like to just sit there and hit refresh, only to see the junks adding up? Buy a clue-they probably sell them just down the street from mums house.
That was my presumption as well...so I looked.
Three R's & two D's...it's pretty much interchangeable anymore. Sessions was a dem...that R-Spector of a statesman from Pennsylvania was dem before he was an R, before he was a mutant statist.
Thanks.
Thick as a brick. Two peas in a pod.
Republicans v. Democrats is a game for you to play. The PTB wants you to play this game so that they can go on looting undisturbed.
Can you figure that out nmewn?
you are so right. the one who introduced the bill, katrina asay, is a republican from milton but it is totally believable that some democrats signed on. they all want to make non compliance with this additional intrusion a felony too. thanks public servants.
BI...my own personal troll.
What did I just point out to TBT?
Yea, Junk em. Except for the truth, politicians are just that, Pols.
Labeling works for soup, Chicken Noodle, Tomato, accurate labels.
Politicians are what they are, that's the only label that's relevant.
What party was Spector when he came up with the Magic Bullet Theory?
Yea, Junk em. Except for the truth, politicians are just that, Pols.
Labeling works for soup, Chicken Noodle, Tomato, accurate labels.
Politicians are what they are, that's the only label that's relevant.
Sorry no difference between parties...the 'patriot act'..is a huge shredding of the constitution. Dems and repubs are the same in action..just the rhetoric is different.
Talking about the ‘Patriot Act’ a friend of mine reported that he was recently at a coin dealer who told him - Under the ‘Patriot Act’ he was required to keep a record of any transaction over $3000 (including name and contact information) because of terrorists. I guess the terrorists are now accumulating and trading in physical PMs. Keep a look out. If you see something – Say Something!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtYIRj9kZjY
Buying PMs at the dealer in Canada, the local (bylaw? law?) states you have to give picture ID and all that jazz for any purchase over 3000$
exactly papaswamp.....nice to see a kindred spirit
they are republicans....go figure. get rid of your partisan attitude, it's blinding you from the truth.
Maybe a few anon calls and notes would change their minds.
Who do they think they are?, they are not the arbiters of MONEY or PM's in this country.
Getting Junked for something so obvious is ludicrous.
Repubs know one thing, their base is dependent on 2hd Amendment people.Sell them out, and they never win another election.
Take it, bank it.
There are three Republicans (Asay, Klippert, and Pearson) and two Democrats (Miloscia and Hurst) sponsoring this bill.
Rest assured, when it comes to anti-money laundering and 'know your client' disclosure regulations, in 30 years of being in this business I have yet to meet any terrorist who needed to launder USD250/month for 10 years in a savings plan.
This has, and never had anything to do with terrorists. Neither does the Patriot Act or Anti-Terrorist legislation in the UK. When you take to the streets because you are hungry because your avgerage $60K won't buy enough food you will find out who the terrorists really are.
It's you.
Who's money is it anyway? Yours, or your governments...
its the govs money, and you need to enjoy the rides in their theme park, u know, property, hospitals, speeding.
No they won't--who would be stupid enough to comply with such nonsense? Grow some spine, Americans.
Now they'll have records of who purchased...
Actually, I think the proposal is to try and ID the sellers. And that's in the name of trying to prevent illegal fencing of stolen goods.
These kinds of activities are nothing more than red herrings.
As long as PM coinage is denied to any citizenry as use as legal tender, we will continue to run the hampster wheel. Buying and holding PM is as stupid as believing Mr. Bernankes' and Mr. Geitners' script has intrinsic value.
Intrinsically valuable coinage and a soveriegn entitys' issuance of notes redeemable in an established weight and purity is the only way to regain and enjoy economic freedom. If it's not in circulation, why bother?
Issuing tokens and "collectibles" while printing interest bearing mortgages to sell for foriegn script is absurd. It only leads to stupid ideas like this that keep everyone distracted. imo.
By the way, the bill would apply to all precious metals, stones, and firearms.
What is even more appalling is the realization that HB1716 would require sellers of gold to provide picture, signature, ID (date of birth, address), to some of these same dealers who are, by the bill's own disclosure, on the edges of legal commerce. I'm genuinely curious if the co-signers of the bill have a second piece of legislation to help deal with the flood of identity theft which will result from such folly.
this is a DC totalitarian State Bill, so presumably cross-border purchases are still normal commerce without ID's etc yes? ....anyway give those 'public representatives' (cough) the finger at next election
Then sell to individuals................
That guy can SUCK MY MUTHA FUCKIN DICK.
END OF MESSAGE.
Into in.cest are we? That's just so ... you know, just so ... so ... typical. 8>))
good touche. but you don't have to disguise incest here.
Do you also eat with that same mouth?
Well that means it will be monetized definitely....I don't think confiscated though.
For buying now
EBAY BITCHEZ
Agreed. It also points to a parabolic rise. What point would there be to this if gold was going to fall? Same goes for other tangible wealth assets. They are acting on the knowledge that the USD will become asswipe and little more.
that's believable but probably gives these dimwits more credit than they deserve. imo it's just knee-jerk authoritarianism at this point.
Long way to Parabolic Rise Gld Stage2,Slvr Stage 1, unless the Black Swans start hitting in waves,or the dollar is dumped.
Forget eGay, they keep records, an IRS Agent went to jail for non payment of taxes for eGay sales profits............around 10yrs worth of sales.
Let me explain. I live here in Washington and have been buying from the dealers around the Seattle area. There are a group of coin dealers here who are part of a lobby. Each shop pays a minimum of $5,000 per year for lobbying and then a per project fee for various specific goals.
One of the shops I used to do business with was part of this lobby and I heard about this about 5 months ago or so. Though Tylers observations are true in a genral sence the real drive here is much like the crony capitolists in Atlas Shrugged. These guys are not trying to take OUR rights as their primary goal, it is just a consequence of being able to manipulate the govt to keep their competition under control. These coin dealers are furious that their little shops are not getting the scrap for sale, and they want that business. Instead of compete they have chosen to manipulate the law to make their money. The consequences of the sucess of this noncompetitive behaviour in the current climate political power grabing is the loss of yet more of our fundamental rights. No one set out to destroy our access to gold here, they just set out in a corrupt system to protect themselves from the forces we have counted on to grow our country to greatness.
The shop I am speaking of is called Redmond Rare Coins, and I have quit doing business with them for this and because they charge too great a spread on buy and sell. Somehow they still seem to do fine with their uncompetitive prices though... no wonder really.
Fonz, how do you think consumers having to register their purchases in PM's gives these coin dealers any competitive edge whatsoever?
This is a registration process, namely monitoring (Big Brother) the consumer. That is not the same process as monopolising which is usually done through licensing and regulating businesses so you can shut competition down when you want for the fat boys to carve up the market. This is consumer not supplier
Consumers having to register their scrap purchases was intended to apply to the fly by night scrap purchasers who would take out a full page add and rent a conference room at a local hotel. This was intended to cause them to no longer be able to do business as a consequence of being caught with stolen goods. I can assure you that the perception at the shops that the best political angle to use was that of theft for the purpose of selling it to these out of state groups. This causes those who would have sold to these traveling organizations that put a lot of money into advertising and pay more for scrap to lose their business. This business then would goto the coin shops who already implement a set of anti theft proceedures on jewelry ect.
Also the concept of monopoly is too imprecise for this issue isn't it? Businesses do not get monopolies through actions like these, all they need to do is seriously impact the viablity of business in a climate where competing opportunities can be considered.
This DOES affect the consumer but that was not the purpose in its creation. The purpose was for the boys at the coin shops to knock out, reduce, or damage out of state competition. I believe the way the look at it was as a matter of "fairness" since they already track their jewelry sales for the police and the state for theft.
LOL @ the number of people who boast "Over my dead body", or "They can pry my gold from my dead fingers".
They will tax all gold sales at 100% after their confiscation-window is over, effectively driving the value of your gold to zero.
Keep dreamin' chimp... and put that frog down.
Heard of OFF the books?.
They cannot make Gold or PM's worth Zero, because they will never know who's selling or buying.
First, there will be an ample supply of buyers who will gladly ignore any tax laws and gladly give you something close to spot for your gold, and then bring it out of the United States and into a country where it can be easily traded tax-free. It's called tax jurisdiction arbitrage. Think of all those smuggling tunnels along the Mexican border: drugs and illegal immigrants going in one direction. Gold coming back in the other.
Second, you could just carry the coins across the border yourself. It's easy enough to walk into Mexico with $10K of gold coins in your pocket. The U.S. government may lock down the border crossings and start X-raying people leaving the country, but that won't last forever. Borders are porous. If you can't figure out how to get your gold past them, then you are probably always going to be someone who falls prey to criminals who would steal your wealth anyway.
Third, gold confiscation and taxation will end someday. Many of us who are holding gold to preserve wealth are in it for the long term - for generations. I hope to never sell my gold, but instead to pass it on to my children or grandchildren. I am patient and I think long-term. I can wait out whatever policies the U.S. government may put in place to try to get at the gold.
in washington state ,, just go to idaho, utah .. idaho is a state that mines gold and silver ,
and has some respect for the folks ,
it will drive sales of gold to other states not mexico
and gold confiscation will not be in the cards for the folks as less that 2% own , now the deep atorage gold of the fed ,, as they have zero ounces in fort knox ,, will
make a run on gold miners shooting the price upward.
uncle sam has been amazingly unpatriotic lately and the trend will continue. the thieves will always eventually lose. there will always be those who know and use privacy better than the desire for surveillance. the thieves both in and out of washington are tripping all over themselves as usual.
http://covert2.wordpress.com
For as long as I have been posting here I have been saying that the primary threat to gold is regulatory and legal not financial. Was the case then and remains the case now. Just read US history. When the next crisis hits they regulate all gold purchases and sales in their entirety. The reasoning is smple. Gold represents a potential alternative currency and that is easily accepted among the population and which diminishes their power of coinage and monetary control. To preserve their power they will use their legislative power to protect the coinage power. Quite simple really.
The problem with any legislation encumbering private holding or trading of specie is that it tends to create a reversal of Gresham's law. Gold and silver become the prefered medium of trade in a totally tax free environment ( black market). Official paper currency takes a back seat as vendors prefer specie knowing that the transaction will go unreported.
It doesn't make a lot of sense for a tax hungry jurisdiction to pass such legislation, but then again; is there anything sensible about the US gov't?
So Tyler, what your saying is....
If I want to buy gold I will be treated like a convicted rapist?
only pirates need gold so in a way ... you are a rapist
They might as well just go all out and send anyone buying gold to prison for a period not exceeding 6 months. Why stop at the finger printing, photo, etc?
MK?
A crime against fiat!...what will they think of next...LOL.
Hey nmewn...you know that trashing the coin of the realm is a threat to national security.
No worries just buy now...You have to buy now, later is to dangerous. Buy physical and hide your stash...
I leave the gold buying to my wife. I would own it, but I tend to shudder at its barbaric nature.
"Hey nmewn...you know that trashing the coin of the realm is a threat to national security."
Soon to be a hate crime...LOL.
One more time, Do not buy LEGAL TENDER PM's for the country you live in.
If I want to buy gold I will be treated like a convicted rapist?
Rapist or terrorist take your pick.
Now This is worth protesting!
Hold on. Quiet. Hey! Everybody quiet down.
Now listen. Listen carefully. Do you hear that. Can you hear that.
Yes. That's it. That's it. The sound of silence. Not a whimper from Seattle or anywhere else in the northwest. The sheeple are content to give up what their ancestors died for. They called it "Liberty".
I am involved in a freedom ride protesting the loss of the minority rights belonging to the few remaining earthbound stars. All we demanded was our right to twinkle.Marilyn Monroe Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
Ronald Reagan
. A mere forty years ago, beach volleyball was just beginning. No bureaucrat would have invented it, and that's what freedom is all about.
Newt Gingrich
Keep listenin' ... you'll hear more than a wimper. Unfortunately, we are vastly outnumbered and the average person doesn't give a shit about increased gov't regulation, gold or silver ... they soon will. This is the first shot across the bow of PM owners ... with more to come. Next up, draconian taxes on the sale of PM's ... wait and see. With the dollar soon to be ass-wipe, commerce will go underground, more bartering and PM's on the blackmarket. If you don't have a skill or something of value to trade (liquor, smokes, etc.), better get one quick.
right to twinkle, bitchez.
Heh. Why We Fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e9PCpUgTEM
Bend over, bitchez!
.
They have gone full retard. If they are trying to discourage the use of gold as a medium of exchange they should have continued with the barbarous relic theme. To go this route raises the questions in even the dumbest fuck: WHY? and WHAT are they afraid of?
Not exactly the approach the Chinese are taking, eh?
No, but the Chinese goobermint is communist while we are........
I know, I know...it's late, long week, etc.
But the f@cking word is government. No matter how oppressive, shitty, non-democratic or bought and sold by corporations.
Government.
How the hell did we get to the point that Red China is ENCOURAGING its citizens to store their wealth in gold, but in the UNITED STATES, where our CONSTITUTION DEMANDS that money be nothing but silver and gold--it's becoming fucking illegal.
.
Keep buying the dips. Fuck the law today, fuck the law tomorrow.
"thou shalt have no other reserve currencies before me"
-dolla bill
Geoff,
Thats a no brainer.
The Reds will murder their people at random for pissing the sidewalk.
All the PM's in their peoples hands actually belongs to the Gvt.They have no rights.
Here, we have rights, and a means to defend our property, and we will use those means.The minute our Gvt starts arresting innocents, and random shooting, will be their end.
'Fantasist'?
The Chinese government outwardly controls it's people, while in the US people are enslaved to protect their liberty. It's two sides to the same coin. Incidentally, the reason the government is watching gold sales is not just to follow the gold; it's so they can track their servants that hold it.
the US Govt has no control.... see the drugs business (black market)... 80 years of total rub-it-in-your-face incompetent failure... more of this control-freak legislation comes down the pipe from The Parasite Club, the more a black market will develop in PM's
Shhh - you are harshing Popo's mellow....
"see the drugs business"
try googling CIA, drugs, Barry Seal
Laos, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Columbia
remember Noriega?
if there is money to be made you can bet that the government is getting a cut somehow.
Air AMERICA!!!
Stunning logic: Cash For Gold, where gold is mailed to a different state, motivates burglaries in Washington state, so anyone buying a gold coin in Washington should be fingerprinted. Hey, the drug dealers already have scales and an efficient distribution network, let them take over bullion sales as well!
Buy, by the G.
No wonder I purchased Au in that form.
Everything will be over a C-note in short order.
Surely even the Redmond MicroTards won't sit still for this?
Is there someone who has better spreads than California Numismatic Investments aka golddealer.com? Include the fact that shipping and insurance are free at CNI. I have always used them.
Tulving. Not the place you hit every month, but if you got a wad of fiat rotting in your pocket that is the place to go. CNI is where I make my regular purchases so they are good to.
Tulving is for when you see the light and drop a wad. APMEX is where I satisfy my impulse urges.
In addition, www.onlygold.com has great specials from time to time, but www.gainesvillecoins.com has consistently had the overall best spreads of any the last few years. They also take credit cards for a small upcharge (~2%) which is awesome if you're wanting your own bailout and an investment allocation over 100% in gold like Chumbawamba ;)
Tulving, is a racket,(IMHO, due to quanity demands,for no great deal) and APMEX is for those closed market I fear whats coming Sun evening mkt openings, and you pay way extra over spot, plus shipping for the right to maybe make gain on Monday.
CNI is a great company, but they only accept wire transfer. No cash transactions. Go to coin shows, where no receipts are given, and the Ruling Class has no insight into what you've done.
They have been taking checks from me ever since my credit union tripled the price of wire transfers. Got to give them 3 weeks to clear but been working fine so far, just got a couple eagles in.
Checks are trackable.
Cash is not.
CNI is great. It takes cash, and allows walk-in customers. Located only about five minutes from LAX.
how do you avoid fakes at coin shows?
If she squeals when you squeeze them, they're not fakes.
www.fisch.co.za
I saved myself from buying a fake just 2 weeks ago in Long Beach. The dealer had never seen a Fisch. Looked pretty hurt and upset that he might have gotten robbed himself when he bought the encased coin he was trying to sell me.
Tulving's minimum purchase amount is too high at least for me. CNI is the best I've found but I can't afford the 2,000$ minimums there anymore either. Gainsville is a company I never ordered from-I don't think they have a minimum order and accept credit card orders which CNI doesn't. Another possiblity is Mint Products-OK prices but cheaper shipping than Apmex.
I like the way Gainesville Coins is up front about it, charging you more for the same coin if you pay by credit card than if you wire transfer. Wire transfers to Gainesville are a minimum of $2k, by the way. Haven't dealth with Tulving, nor Gainesville yet - although I might, if I could ever scrape up a spare $2k at one time! I have done business with APMEX, who seem to do what they say they will. I'll go check out Mint Products, never heard of them before - thanks!
Tulvings problem is at the quantities you must buy, your dollar cost averaging is out the window.I do not like to buy more than 10 Gld coins at a pop, unless its a hell of a deal, not likely to be repeated.Cannot do that with 20 Coins, unless you are WAY heavy cash monsta's.
Ever noticed the overseas countries prems are 2-3%, and here, 5% is the usual lowest rates?.
So, no way they will ever get my quarters.
You've got to be kidding. Bill Gates was a strong supporter of Washington's attempt at gun control. What makes you think for an instant that the elites don't try to increase their power, when everything that they've done over the past decade has been to increase it at the expense of the middle and lower classes?
I wouldn't be surprised if Gates was funding this bill.
Bill is semi-retired now. I was refering to the remaining serfs Balmer has been grating on for years.
Yup, bill has his eyes on a bigger prize now, he's making sure his billions get spent to vaccinate (sterlize, sicken...etc.) as many "third" worlders as possible.
The sad part is that people look upon him as a saviour.
Crazy world.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/truth-about-america-truth-about-us/
He's doing plenty to advance the NWO
He is indeed.
ORI