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Presenting The First Chinese Aircraft Carrier
After reverse engineering virtually every product known to man, the Chinese have now applied the same skill to the only component of their military that was so far missing: an aircraft carrier. Earlier today, Xinhua revealed the first official pictures of what will soon be China's first aircraft carrier, now expected to enter operation by the end of the year. As the NYT reports: "The photos of the carrier, the Varyag, which China bought from the Ukraine in 1998, appeared Wednesday on the Web site of Xinhua, the state news agency. It was the first time that Xinhua had given visual evidence of the carrier project, which is widely seen as a linchpin of China’s military modernization and naval ambitions. The carrier is being rebuilt in the waters of Dalian, a coastal city in eastern China. Xinhua cited a military analysis magazine based in Canada, Kanwa Asian Defense Review, as saying that the ship will be ready to sail this year. The fact that Xinhua used that information in a photo caption appeared to be an official endorsement of that view."
More photos here and the wiki entry on the Kuznetsov-style Varyag can be found here.
One thing about the Chinese: they sure can reverse engineer quick:
Andrei Cheng, the founder of the magazine in Canada said in a telephone interview on Thursday that the photographs published by Xinhua showed the carrier at a much more advanced stage of construction than he had expected. He said his magazine had gotten photos of the carrier taken in February, but that those photos did not show any paint on the ship’s upper structure, while the ones published by Xinhua did.
“The speed is very, very amazing, he said. “It’s surprised me.”
As to whether this is a big strategic deal or just military posturing, here is Stratfor's analysis on the implications of China getting its first aircraft carrier.
China’s state news agency, Xinhua, has published pictures of the Varyag, an aircraft carrier that the Chinese bought from the Ukrainians that they’ve been slowly working to develop and deploy. The pictures are accompanied by a note that suggests that after 70 years of Chinese hopes, this carrier is finally going to float this year.
It’s interesting that Chinese state media is finally publishing pictures of the carrier. This has been about the worst-kept secret in the history of military development; everyone has seen pictures — either satellite pictures or on-the-ground pictures — of the Varyag throughout its refit by the Chinese. That they’re finally putting imagery in the state media suggests that they may actually be nearing the point of putting this to sea.
There’s been a lot of concern raised by China’s neighbors — by the United States — of Chinese maritime intent, of the expansion of Chinese activities in the South China Sea, of a seemingly more assertive China in pushing what it considers to be its own naval territory. The deployment of the Varyag finally into this mix will certainly add to those concerns. The Varyag would technically allow the Chinese to move air assets further away from their shore, give them additional capabilities within the narrow constraints of the South China Sea. There’s been a lot of debate as to whether or not the Chinese included the South China Sea as one of their “core national interests” in some documents last year. It’s unclear whether they did or they didn’t, but certainly the Chinese have been acting in a manner that suggests that they are going to be much more aggressive in pushing their claim to the territory, as well as pushing to work bilaterally with some of the countries along the region, in an effort to keep the United States out of the mix.
Carrier operations are not something that’s easy to do, it’s going to take a very long time for the Chinese to be able to work through the various technicalities of this. It’s also not something they’re going to be able to learn from other people. The Russians haven’t done carrier operations a very long time and United States is certainly not going to be training them. So this is going to be years before the Chinese really have the coordination to be able to move large carrier battle groups anywhere. And that assumes also that China builds more carriers. A single carrier gives you almost no capability. It’s got to be in port, it’s got to be in for refit, it can only go to one location. Until they have about three carriers, they really don’t even have the opportunity to maintain a single carrier on station at any given point in time.
This is really more about politics rather than about military capabilities at this moment. Certainly, the Chinese will use this to learn, to train, to be able to develop new capabilities. But it’s about giving the sense that China has emerged, that China really is no longer just a second-tier country, but economically, politically and militarily, China is one of the big boys now.
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I swear I can read the name on the side of the ship..
Says BISMARCK ...
Yes, surface raiders and "self-defended" carriers have a good track record.
The only question then, on which american ship you can read HOOD?
the Fairey Swordfish would be EA 6 Prowlers ?
If you are alluding to the role that Fairey Swordfishs played in sinking Bismark, I do not think that "EA 6 Prowler" is "Fairey Swordfish" because, unlike Fairey Swordfish, EA 6 Prowler is incapable of sinking anything.
The Ukraine has a deep sea port?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sea
http://www.worldportsource.com/ports/UKR_Port_of_Nikolaev_1568.php
Yeah, I know. Bit of a joke. Like having a deep sea port in Lake Michigan.
The Sea of Michigan?
Actually not only does Lake Michigan have several ocean ports (Chicago, Milwaukee, Port of Indiana), Duluth (that's on Lake Superior for you eastern boys) is also an ocean port.
Today's fun trivia fact: Idaho also has an ocean port. See, there's these things called rivers, and...
HEY LOOK, A PONY! AWWW its so cute, and hey theres a little dog there too!
I wonder if they serve Pu Pu platters in the Mess hall....
Mike Mullen, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff warned us that the biggest threat to National Security was the National Debt:
http ://hotair.com/archives/2010/06/25/joint-chiefs-chair-says-debt-is-the-greatest-threat-to-national-security/
It looks like Japanese Soryu completed in 1937.
Major Nations (and Israel) have a Nuclear arsenal to destroy the world 6,000 times over (Funny that's the same amount of derivatives too) This a is penis-size competition showdown. Their is CCP Long Dong vs USS John Holmes
China will soon have an aircraft carrier with one-third the capability of any single one of our aircraft carriers!
Run! Run for your lives! Aaaaiiiieeeee!
So. It's on like Ronkey Kong?
I presume that crane is for recovery when skiers go off the end?
China's military capabilities are no threat to the US. The quality of many Chinese ground units is poor. To project military power and have the capability to seriously contest control of the seas adjacent to the
Chinese coast and the Indian Ocean, China would have to possess a “blue water” navy. For China to develop a
modern regional navy, it would either have to build the fleet itself; buy the ships and aircraft entirely from other
countries; or import a small number of advanced weapons and platforms, disassemble them, reverse engineer them,
and mass produce them. China does not have a blue water Navy , they have a coastal navy. China just doesn't have the logistics ability to project force.
China still cannot project its power across the globe. In terms of regional conflicts, China would have the edge over the United States in any conflict in mainland Asia, however, the aforementioned lack of strategic projection would put them behind the United States in global conflicts. So I am not worried about China. However if I was from Mongolia with its massive oil and natural gas reserves,Vietnam with its food production,Indonesia,Japan ,Russia and its massive oil and natural reserves in Siberia etc I would be worried. China needs energy and its neighbors(Russia,Mongolia,Indonesia and the body of water South China Sea) has a lot of it
China is what America's military was prior the Spanish -American war. Powerful regional power but cannot project its power across the globe. Also China's military has not been tested in any conflict. Is China ready to protect its interest in Africa,South America? Not yet. The anti-carrier missile of China is currently IN DEVELOPMENT. While an initial design has been decided upon, the guidance system and various other components of the missile are still being developed and China has not even tested it against a moving target.China still need at least 15-20 years to be a viable military power to project its power abroad. China's military is perfect for regional conflict and invasion on its nation. However militarily it cannot take on any western power in Africa,Persian Gulf,or South America where its economic interest are.
China is interested in projecting power against Japan, Taiwan and the Spratleys.
Dream On.China get everything from Russia and Israel participate in different programs,with quantity of dollars they have they have everything,they just no "show on" country,you need to learn asian psychologies and learn their history to understand,if they start muscle they apply it immeduately,same for Russia.America is flexing by muscles to much,but results is at face:they bought Afganistan and they took Iraq(where Dick Cheney take all oil and selling to you at home at 110$ per barel,they can not finish Libya,because some belarus partisans helping it and morally many countries on its side)-americans too much self believed in own power,which not any longer is a power:dollar power went into air,its like a ball which loosed most air.Those China and russia proved to be only ballance to stop world occupation by FED
yes comrade, you are correct...
Are you kidding Weimar? China has all the money and the manufactured goods. They are more respected in the rest of the world than the U.S. They are growing and prospering. We are weak and decaying. We kill and drop bombs and engineer coups against the people. The Chinese bring industry, products, manufacturing and financing. Maybe their long term goals are purely Ferengi but they aren't throwing troops everywhere on the planet.
Sure they got a lot of respect by bringing the world their lead-laden toys, fake baby formula with tons of poison, melamine pet foods, plastic rice, and cloths and furniture that cause serious illnesses and cancers. How about those FEMA trailers?
The truth is that the entire Chinese military is so corrupt that one can purchase any ranks except for the top ones. Just a few years ago, the number two guy in their Navy got ousted because he's got more than a dozen young mistresses, and he made a lot of money by selling Navy ranks. Do you expect PLA can fight professionally against foreign foes? Their true use is only to tank roll unarmed protesters in Tienanmen Square IMHO.
I'm confused, is this for aircraft or skate boards?
So, they're gonna launch modified SU-27's off that thing...brave pilots.
Just strap some bottle rockets on those SU-27's. They also make great CHAFF during air to air combat!
The US to launch a new carrier in response, the USS Sour Grapes.
The Chinese have an aircraft carrier? Great, now let them patrol the Straits of Hormuz. Also, let's sell them the USN Ronald Reagan battle group for a cool trillion - we need the cash.
Yeah, but Uncle ben doesn't want the money coming home to roost, what will they pay in?
They developed an aircraft carries that flies years ago...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/16/flying_aircraft_carrier/
Chinese ''Junk'' just took on a whole new meaning beyond the Great Wal Mart of China. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYObDhqN49Q
... a Chinese Carrier established by indentured Wal Mart shoppers looks as pathetic as the blackout button on the new multi billion dollar stealth fighter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naSPSTZsHYA
Uh ...drone wins, war is over, skynet online, we are Borg, resistance is futile. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww
Biggest dim sum cart I've ever seen.
Corsey Corsey Corsey, that is the funniest line I have heard all year!!!
Ho Ho Ho!
P.S. Those are the 3 guys in the wheel house.
It's time that we increase our military spending to counteract this threat.
I'm tired of having our collective asses kicked across the globe.
We lost the last 3.
Should I go along with my Repub brothers and wish for an atomic strike on the carrier to make things better?
How about the entire country of China, and in a way that prevents return fire?
what? people still need these, i thought war was a thing of the past.
Hey Tyler
***General: US may consider sending troops into Libya***
AJDABIYAH, Libya — The U.S. may consider sending troops into Libya with a possible international ground force that could aid the rebels, the former U.S. commander of the military mission said Thursday, describing the ongoing operation as a stalemate that is more likely to go on now that America has handed control to NATO.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42468330/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
>> After reverse engineering virtually every product known to man, the Chinese have now applied the same skill to the only component of their military that was so far missing: an aircraft carrier.
Full points for reverse engineering. Now they will kill THOUSANDS of pilots and sailors attempting to get it working properly. The learning curve and requirements for carrier combat / harsh weather operations are paid for in blood, treasure and lives.
So good luck tongzhi boys.
What if the China send its troops into USA?hhh,USA will fall during few days,because americans will happy to be saved from FED and current administration,chineese people will help to install democratically voted President and government where will be working class and some peasants!Bankers flit to Libya to rebuild the country and work in Kibbuzes
lol
yea, paper tiger china is...
on the other hand, there are "toothless tigers" who repeatedly fail to capture some small-armed somalian pirates. Not only that, they get the hostages they were supposed to save killed while the peasant asian navies from korea and malaysia in gunboats (they do not have carriers these peasant navies from asia) arrested sp many of these pirates they couldn't fit them into their tiny boats. Then there are also "blind tigers", as the libyan "rebels" found out when nato fighters bombed the rebel convoys, twice in two days. just as well america has resorted to paper printing to support a monopoly military (or shud I say, militaries cus nato really is american).
The chance of them launching air strikes in Libya? Ha!
er, you mean like nato bombing and killing the rebels they were supposed to supoort instead of bombing qadafi, twice in 2 days? you didn't read that from american msm for sure, bad news is not good for allies' sensitive morale non?
No doubt the British didn't think much of the fledling navy of the U.S.A. either; until we took over the seas, their trade, industries, and role as #1 world power.
I need to drive to CA and watch the sun set.
Ah, the glorious golden days of the Imperial "Two Power Standard" and the German "Riskfleet".
The chinaman is not the issue here, Dude. I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT... Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature.
We all know who's at fault here walter, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!
+1
"Eight-year-olds, Dude."
We've junked better carriers - probably junked 20 better carriers if not more.
so the Chinese buy a hulk and then put an engine in it? You gotta be shittin' me! keel-engine-rest of boat ,that's how you build em. This is no way to run a navy
Their very first? I thought they already had at least one. Is this going to be a ghost ship to guard the ghost towns they've built?
ok...the Chinese acquired the rust bucket Varyag with the promise that it would never be deployed to the water. It is an older carrier of Kuznetzov class (the Russians have one of these operational) and slightly larger than the Gorshkov that the Indians have purchased and which is being made operational for them (lazily) by the Russians.
The reason for the ski jump is because this is a STOBAR style carrier configuration. It uses forward speed and a skijump to get sufficient airspeed for the aircraft aboard. This is in contrast to the CATOBAR operation of our carriers, the French CDG, and Brazil's Sao Paulo which was formerly the French Foch. What this in essence means is that planes must be lighter to successfully take off. In plain words, that means no heavy strike packages can be flown from the deck.
Consequently, a carrier such as this is a poor tool for force projection beyond VTOL aircraft (of which the Harrier is the only currently operational version) and helos (for which there are many smaller carriers owned by Thailand, Italy, India, etc). These 2nd tier carriers can support a dozen or so Harriers. We call these Amphibious Assault Carriers (like Kearsarge) and among nations with carriers, all beyond the nations mentioned are of solely this capability.
Among nations, 3 possess any capacity to launch real strike packages from std fixed wing aircraft- the US (10), France (1), and Brazil (1, although it cannot launch newer strike aircraft such as the Rafale or F18 and is limited to older Super Entendard class planes). All other carriers including the Varyag, Kuznetzov, and Gorshkov, while being able to launch contemporary fighters (Su27 variants from the former 2, and Mig29K from the latter), simply cannot pose any real offensive risk. Their roles are for mostly air-based fleet defense, and perhaps some air superiority.
Surely, a wing of Su27s plus helos can destroy a lot of stuff as the Su27s provide air cover and the helos launch missiles, but you cannot *bomb* at altitude with these carriers; you cannot fly in at 600KIAS at 40,000 feet and drop JDAMs from a 4 or 4.5G fighter/bomber. Only the US and France can do that.
So, with these vessels, you can dominate a contest against a Harrier Carrier and you can sink ships, and surely fuck up a nation like Ivory Coast with your helos, but you cannot force project and bomb people like we do or France is doing in Libya. And the Sao Paulo, to a lesser extent, though it would be outmatched from an air superiority perspective against a modern-equipped air force as well as against a CBG possessing 4G fighters. That said, Brazil may well spend a ton of money to lengthen their catapult to give themselves a higher capability. As things stand they are limited to the A4 Skyhawk which is absolutely no match for a Sukhoi 27 or Mig 29 or a terrestrial airforce with at least a 4G fighter.
If I were the Chinese I'd load that carrier up with lightweight drones made to look like Cessna's to fly over the West (Left) coast and drop some EMP bombs to cripple the naval yards and create panic.
The riots in L.A. would be worse than any war force they could land there.
Very informative Trav, thanks.
I'd have to venture a guess of at least 75% loiter time and about 2/3 of our standard range with that lightweight setup, even lower with jumpjets correct?
doesn't even matter bc they can't do much of shit while they're up there. The 29Ks and whatnot can fire the Brahmos I guess, but that's about it; antishipping and limited target strikes, air superiority only.
Tough to do against a decent airforce and no capability to really strike ground targets=no air superiority, bye bye air wing. So if you think of it that way, these are defensive assets at most; they can sink ships and intercept carrier-borne aircraft is about it.
Maybe offensive against tankers and you can splash Harriers...against de Gaulle or a Nimitz, forget it. Splash, sink, bomb. A floating helo platform is scary to pissant nations. If they have real jets, they're unfazed by it.
The sheer firepower the big CATOBAR carriers bring to any engagement is awesome.
trav--but we love the scooters!
and nfw that PLAN can extend force projection (yet--give it lotsa' years and it gets different) beyond Taiwan. And, as we know, business trumps family that trumps politics.
So, a new paint job can be applied in a week or so, no indicator as to preparedness. Let alone IOC, let alone operational playaz'
- Ned
{fricken' chipped gray paint off of a gray boat for a fricken' long time and never want to go there again}
PLAN couldn't succeed in an amphibious invasion of Hong Kong, much less Taiwan
Why do you say that?
You're either grossly overestimating the capabilities of the RCA, or vastly underestimating the power of raw numbers.
Very detailed and it jibs with my exhaustive 15-minutes of Internet research.
Deleted ... stupid phone.
Cooter
WHERE'S THE NUCLEAR SUBS?
LET'S JUST BLOW UP THE GODAMN PLANET ALREADY!
Ukraine had a surplus aircraft carrier to sell?!
I suppose it's a hand-me-down from the old USSR and the former soviet states divvied up their stuff.
Hopefully, they can git 'er in service in time to test 'er out on Libya or the next hapless tyrant to be replaced by the global power elite. Kinda like the Spanish Civil War was a good war game testing ground for WWII.
The adstream content on ZH has some mad genius I tell you - banner ad for dating cute Chinese girls just now - and she's so cute! I wonder if her Brother works in the ship yards?
the one in the red dress....yeah, I'd let her ride the bologny pony
We give the Chinese far too much credit. If this ship works like most other "cloned" products they produce, we better coint a new song tantamount to the Titanic.
Interesting to me that PLAN as an acronym hasn't surfaced in the posting. -->?
- Ned
Plan two for Gwadar, two for Freedom Island...
Where is the US Fleet update ZH was providing
why reverse engineer it when you can just buy the prints from Slick Willy "The Grenade Catcher" Clinton? Going price: $100 mil or two fat chicks
Dear China,
That is a fine looking boat. I wish you all the best of luck in your quest for world domination.
As a bit of advice, it starts out okay. Then it gets scary and you end up in quagmires. Then it gets good again. Then some saxaphone playing, blowjobs in the politburo oval office and things seem pretty good... Then your greedy fuck bankers suicide your country and your citizens are so used to getting wealth effected that they don't even notice. The end.
Watch out for that last step, its a doozy!! I looking forward to manufacturing your cheap plastic lead painted toys.
Sincerely,
Kurt
P.S. There are a few more quagmires along the way that. Stupid quagmires. They'll pretty much pop every five years or so. Poor people don't seem to mind dying in the quagmires when you are in world domination mode. Eventually they start volunteering for its. Its kind of weird.
but everybody told us aircraft carriers were obsolete! they got these hypersonic cruise missles, russian, chinese, indian(dot not feather) all packing supercavitation. so aircraft carriers are just sitting ducks and boondoggles to waste mone....oh! never mind.
I feel sorry for all of those crewmen getting ill from lead paint and poisoned dairy products.
Since this is their first one, they're going to have a bitch of a time training pilots to land on rolling seas.
Just think they aren't even to that stage yet.
They lent U.S. money, how else are they going to collect other than to have conventional weaponry too. Maybe they'll just ask for something small or maybe they'll ask for Hawaii...for the golf.
interesting bit on the jasmine revolution going on in china....these kids with computers will not give up....they dont care how long it takes...April 10th might be a good day to watch news from china....
http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=21089&page=1
http://nakedempire2.blogspot.com/
Aircraft Carriers are far from obsolete. They Are literal islands protected buy battle groups, that have the ability to project more firepower than most Small Sovereign Nations. The next US carrier iteration will use magnetic rail guns to launch Aircraft with ease, and Slugs at hypersonic speeds. No more catapults, and much less volatile ordanance. Imagine a 1000LB slug hitting you at MACH7!
Aircraft carriers against a small military still have some use. They aren't much use versus an advanced military. When you consider cruise missiles, laser guided bombs, advanced torpedoes, these would all be sunk within days. The carrier right now is much like the battleship after ww1... everyone thinks it can still project the same power as the last big war without realizing things have changed. IMO longer range aircraft combined with forward airbases trump aircraft carriers.
And who owns that technology?
sure...but what happens to shipping and supplies when a CBG is out there sinking all your boats?
You don't have a navy anymore if a carrier shows up. India's ancient Viraat simply dominated against Pakistan. An antiquated harrier carrier versus surface shipping of any kind is a turkey shoot.
China's position is precarious in that any nation with projected air power can strangle their shipping. Sure, you cannot invade a nation from a carrier if they have a competent airforce, but that's just not the point.
de Gaulle can impose its will against Libya and pretty much any 3rd world country, as can our CVNs.
As for laser-guided bombs, how the fuck are you going to get your planes near any of these carriers? The cruisers surrounding it will light you the hell up with SAMs from outside the range you can hit the carrier even with something like a Brahmos. And the fleet defense aircraft will be patrolling an even wider radius.
And your subs expecting to sneak up on a carrier through the barrage of wartime ASW...forget it.
Unless you are a giant squid. You are TOAST!
THE chinese are like the guy who bought an expensive.football who thinks that is all he needs to play in the NFL.
We have 70 to 80 years experience playing the aircraft carrier game.
It will be at least thirty years before anyone takes them seriously. They are still just mercantilist buffoons who have to choke.down every damn treasury we feel like sending them.
They are still our punk in the dollar prison.
a recycled Ukrainain vessel? they will have the chance to train some pilots, as the skill level needed is acutely greater. And the Chinese often work on these things in secret. They could have a modern carrier under construction somewhere. Carrier technology hasn't changed much, the big advantage is nuclear power in the boiler room, which means lots of steam to get up to speed to launch, and to run the catapults. A nuclear carrier can steam anywhere in the world in a few days, without a tanker in the vicinity. But the carrier is pretty useless without a coordinated and integrated tactical group around it, that is other warships,and all the information brought to the leadership in the center vessel. The carrier is very vulnerable and needs many eyes and ears. That may take some doing. And with the development of cruise missiles the fighter pilots are less important in a high tech shooting war, and should be used aggresively I would say. That is if you wait until you are attacked it is usually too late. Hard to see how a carrier fits China's military needs, unless they want to extend their power. Suppose they tried to deploy this ship along the coast of Africa, how do they set up supply lines? But we dont' really know how they see their strategic capability.
Do you read before you write? No more catapults! As far as Carrier design goes. Look at the Reagan, and this piece of crapola, and tell me about design. I guess you only notice changes on small things? Most of the good stuff is below the water line anyways! CVN-78 Gerald R. Ford
I say nothing generally, and rightfully so! But the ads here are beyond stupid, and I can only hope Tyler will show some concern about what advertising he allows on his/her/their site. No offense, but taking money from a likely child prostitution ring cheapens the site more than my comments. Seriously Tyler/s/es, this is a sad ad to see anywhere, here moreso.
Respect,
Jah Rastaschnozzi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CVN-78_Artist_Image.jpg
Yea that looks like that piece of tin I saw in the posted pictures.
Does that mean that the global corporate kleptocracy can start depending on the Chinese for their protection instead of the US taxpayer? Maybe not such a bad thing...
If it works like all the other Chinese shit I own, it could make a pretty good comedy sitcom.
It's an old russian tug that they couldn't afford to finish after the collapse of the Soviet Union! The Chinese don't even have any fucking planes that are suitable for carrier duty! They towed the damned thing from the Ukraine to China, and had to have Russian Engineers on-site to get the reactors and everything else running.
Ya know, I love ZH and the work everyone here does, but the sensationalism has gotten a bit too far. In 20-years, China might have a Navy worth checking in on, nevermind worrying about. But right now, it's just a bunch of cheap plastic crap that floats!
NEXT STORY!
Had a great comment with links and witty remarks and everything but the darn thing froze up so here's the edited version. Reefer can look up the links himself.
That's a damn fine ship. The Chinese Navy is doing what it's designed to do - sea denial and fleet in being. You are obviously unfamiliar with there satallite killers and ballistic missile carrier killers. They are taking delivery of SU-33s which are carrier aircraft and are flying the Shenyang J-15, a home built carrier plane. I have seen them with my own eyes practicing on fake carrier decks manufactured in the western deserts since the eraly 2000s so they have plenty of practice.
Reefer, your ignorant comments are what got a lot of Americans surprised and killed on Dec. 7 1941. Not to mention Poles on Sept 1 1939. Stick to the reefer, dude.
+1 We are deluding our selves. I think when WWII started the Japanese were considered inferior. They gave the war in the Pacific a pretty good run!
No, after Pearl Harbor they were pretty soundly pummeled in every engagement. We then firebombed their major cities with hundreds of thousands of the population killed. And then to add insult to injury we nuked them twice. While they did fight heroically and to the death, they did not make a good run of it. Their military suffered over 2 million killed in action with U.S. military deaths at just over 90 thousand in the Pacific theater. As for China, U.S. has 11 aircraft carriers. They have a long way to go.
Knowing a bit about da Chinese, ya get that carrier off the CA coast and all we'd have to do is send a flotilla of blond hotties out there with green cards and cash and the whole boat would defect! Trust me!
That boat is not nuclear powered. It's oil steam.
Do they plan on building 100 more, leaving them empty and just dry docking them?
I'll add something else since it hasn't been addressed by the arm chair admirals in this thread that I can see.
This carrier was not built for power projection. That is a naval doctrine that China has not adopted and cannot adopt for a while. These were essentially built by the Soviets for defense of their SSBN "bastions." And that's what China would be using it for, more or less. To defend their subs as they sortie and project a limited amount of anti-shipping power.
Folks keep saying that the the Chinese have the Sunburn missile and the carrier killing ballistic missiles so that makes carriers obsolete...WTF? It's the CHINESE that have these things! Those weapons only make US carriers obsolete. The USN cruise missiles are currently occupied over Libya. The West is so stupid it's almost funny.
Do you actually think that those projectiles can't be burned at launch? You don't understand carrier battle groups very well! Carriers are mobile islands BITCH! Well protected and off any shore that threatens us. The mobility is what makes them special. Any platform can be deployed in a moments notice. You forget about the sub fleet protecting the surface vessels. Get an education.
Wow Yen, are you sure you didn't get hijacked by Trav or something? You're the one who sounds like they don't havean education. I'll go point by point because I think it's important:
"Burned at launch:" You mean the carrier killers from space? The are ballistic. Even a squadron of Aegis platforms would have a hard time handling those incoming. Burned on the launchpad? No. What, from our super secret Area51 saucers we are hiding in case the Nazi's come back from the moon? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn4DW1uvsAE
I understand carrier battle groups perfectly. It's part of my life's work. What is yours? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html Do you think this is the only time this has happened? It's not.
Stupidity will get our carriers killed. Putting them in the Persian Gulf or the Taiwan Straits or the Bohai Sea will end in a devastating tragedy. You moon the Chinese off their coast enough times via flight deck and you will see what I'm talking about. Read about the Falklands. Far less capable combatants then we are talking about here, but modern warships are eggshells fighting with hammers. Nelson (that admiral guy thingy from that one uhhh battle they named a square or something after) said "A ship's a fool to fight a fort." I agree. Or sit in view of his mobile Exocet launchers.
"Mobility is what makes them special:" No. Their ability to project power with impunity is what makes them special. I'm still trying to figure out what makes you "special."
"You forget about the sub fleet protecting the surface vessel." Dude, I seriously hope you're just tired because I usually like what you have to say. My answer to you here is twofold: #1 WTF? How does a submarine protect from an airborne threat? #2 See my above link to Chinese subs popping up in the middle of task forces and flipping off our admiral's bridge.
Did I get it all? I'll be hear all night, when you feel like rebutting; but please comeback with better stuff. As I type, I am looking at two of our vaunted sub fleet swaying at anchor. Who did you say is babysitting our two flattops off Japan?
I'm a currency trader. I watch everything. I am not a sociopath. I care about people.
I'm going to break down 3 paragraphs in to 1 paragraph with3 sentences.
Spelling? Education? {paragraph one}
Mooning a Fleet? Mobility? Airbourne? (twofold) Flat-tops. Getting tired of swabbing the decks Junior?
Paragraph 3. Get your ass in gear Sailor.
Ok, I'll try a similar quick breakdown.
with3? Looks like mine isn't the only laptop with a trick space key.
Not sure what your middle sentence is all about, but airborne is a common spelling convention where I'm from.
Whole theme: I never "served" a day in my life, but I do know an awful lot about those who do and not being a sociopath myself, I'd rather not see them killed because they were given stupid advice/orders or had an artificially inflated sense of capability.
I can see we're not going to get anywhere with this, but I'll keep reading your posts. I'm not a trader but I made a killing when the Euro went to the moon a few years back vs. the dollar. Took my profits and left 'cuz I didn't have the nerve for the currency game. Hope you were on the right side of the trade when the tsunami hit.
Excellent...
Someone to maybe kick Uncle Sam in the nuts...!
Excellent...
Someone to maybe kick Uncle Sam in the nuts...!
resembles a chicom junk without sails
Shingling News Update:
In a concerted effort to further China's ever expanding reservoir of good will and friendship with the people of the United States of America, in honor of a great humanitarian, intrepid sea captain and leader of peace, she will be christened the "Jimmy Carter". All sailors serving on her proud decks shall hail themselves when making her first port of call in San Fransisco, USA, as serving on the "Peanut."
Perhaps the goal is not to project force.
Perhaps the goal is merely to thwart the US from projecting force.
Arms race?
Nail on the head, my friend.
I like my peanuts raw WITH THAT LITTLE thingie at the bottom!
You can see this vessel on Google Earth @
38'56'05.58" N and
121'36'50.77" E
(substitute degree/minute/second for ', ', and " in the above coordinates)
Also, look at the vessel in construction in the drydocks beside it as well as the photos in GE of the vessel and the drydocks.
The future of the blue water Navy is crewless or nearly crewless missile cruisers. But considering that these probably have some advanced missiles as well as plenty of Sunburn type smaller ones as well means it can punch pretty well above it's weight class.
There are two types of vessel: submarines and targets ......!
P'S. That guy has some good input. So trav7777 stays on my reaD LIST.
Carriers are irelevant vs bigger nations! kinetic missiles *bitchez*
What a coincidence that NYT brings this story in the middle of the budget battle - we wont want anybody to come up with the "crazy" idea of cutting military spendings to balance the books.
last time i checked, i saw in youtube the chinese did not roll on top of the protesters, the tank stop and the protesters got away, amazing isnt it, what the media can do with our brain, projecting something that never happen
Does anyone else but me find it astonishing that this was the very first of these ships built by the Chinese? I didn't know their naval forces were that bush-league. Kind of scary to think of the behemoth Chinese ships owning the Pacific ocean now...
www.forecastfortomorrow.com
Sweet! After they get production sorted out we'll all be able to buy cheap knock-off copies of old soviet carriers on AliBaba.com!
japan stands ready on a suicidal zombie mission to NUKE chinas major cities with tactical nukes on behalf of the u.s.
this is why they have so many nuclear reactors and so little ability to defend themselves. they are a zombie client state of the u.s. , disabled , unable to think for themselves, and set into a hyperscripted set of behaviors for dealing with china, almost 'programmed' unconcsiouly for the last 50 years to do our bidding should it come to that.
let's see how the chinese and japanese get a long, shall we?
no two power-wielding countries on earth hate each so much as the japs and the chinese. it has been deeply brainwashed into the chinese population , and the japanese are the biggest zenophobes in the world.
not even israel and iran dislike each as much, not by a long shot.