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A Proposal For Goldman Sachs: Pay Down $21.2 Billion In TLGP Borrowings Using Your $20 Billion+ Bonus Accrual

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The list below highlights the firms that are on the hook to the FDIC in the form of implicit TLGP guarantees. The top five financial companies consist of CNBC's parent company (not for long) General Electric at $88 billion, Citi at $64.6 billion, Bank of America at $44.5 billion, JPM at $40 billion, and Morgan Stanley at $25 billion. Goldman is just out of the top five at the 6th position, with current outstanding TLGP borrowings at $21.3 billion - nearly a dollar for dollar match with what is expected to be the firm's end of year bonus accrual.

It is only fair to propose to Mr. Blankfein that instead of paying $20 billion in bonuses, the firm uses the bonus accrual to immediately repay every single last cent of its TLGP borrowings. If the firm wishes to approach the private (non-taxpayer subsidized) market subsequently, and reissue the full amount refunded, it may of course do so. Since the firm has repeatedly stated that it is not indebted to the US taxpayer any more, it would be very hypocritical if the firm proceeds to pay $20 billion in bonuses while it is still receiving the implicit interest rate benefits courtesy of having over $20 billion in debt on its balance sheet funded at virtually risk-free rates.

Mr. Blankfein: do not apologize, just do the right thing for once.

The same logic applies to Mr. Dimon who has borrowed almost $40 billion courtesy of TLGP, as well as Mr. Pandit and of course Lewis, who combine for nearly $110 billion in TLGP borrowings.

Full list of TLGP beneficiaries below:

Source: Bloomberg

 

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Tue, 11/24/2009 - 17:59 | 141074 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

Ouch this will leave a mark.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:03 | 141079 AnonymousMonetarist
AnonymousMonetarist's picture

In God we Tranche. 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:08 | 141084 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

Wall Streets best and brightest are on welfare, 20 bil in welfare benefits for free market failures.

 

yuck yuck..piggies

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:08 | 141085 Mongo
Mongo's picture

epic fail!

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:10 | 141091 TomJoad
TomJoad's picture

Just Jump.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:11 | 141095 AnonymousMonetarist
AnonymousMonetarist's picture

Deere John I regret to insure you

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:17 | 141099 Commander Cody
Commander Cody's picture

What the hell are foreign banks doing on this list?  Oh, and Merry Christmas and Happy Chanuka to all ye merry banksters!  Courtesy of the US citizenry.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:19 | 141112 snorkeler
snorkeler's picture

Good question GF.  The looting continues on a grand scale.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:27 | 141217 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Pigs* at the trough.

I am Chumbawamba.

* My apologies to pigs

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:18 | 141106 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Just remember the context of all this -- the FDIC currently sits with $8 billion in the hole... and counting. 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:19 | 141110 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

fortunately they can't run out of money, ever...no matter what happens.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:18 | 141108 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

I have a proposal for James Franco.  Bet i am more successful with mine.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 21:02 | 141340 . . .
. . .'s picture

You have way better chances if Franco is as dumb as the characters he plays.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:27 | 141113 Racer
Racer's picture

You can't expect dogs work to be done for nothing eh, after all it is a $hiT€¥ business and you have to have compensations for getting your hands soiled from touching the untouchable classes?

I mean to say that small fund for small businesses ... who is going to distribute all those pennies from heaven to the low life without protective clothing of gold and diamonds

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:22 | 141118 waterdog
waterdog's picture

Jee whiz Mr. Durden, you take all of the fun out of being a lying stinking thief. Running from you is like driving over 50 feet of stop sticks at the beginning of the chase. First, you got Goldman to admit to dire mistakes without it ever being charged, now, you got Bernanke telling them to give him a day and time when they will pay back all of the borrowed money, at the same time bonuses are expected to be paid.

I bet Santa Claus skipped your house on odd numbered years.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:24 | 141122 Rollerball
Rollerball's picture

Hey, Xe doesn't come cheap.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:31 | 141131 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

asap

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:29 | 141221 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Or else.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:47 | 141153 deadhead
deadhead's picture

"Mr. Blankfein: do not apologize, just do the right thing for once."

Lloyd: It really does not get any simpler than this.  Let's cut the crap on your so called "wish" that Goldman had not participated in this program per your WSJ interview.  Pay the money back and at least knock off one item from the Goldman hypocricy list.

Jamie Dimon: how dare you consistently suggest that JPM doesn't need any US taxpayer help while you got your lips wrapped around Uncle Sam and the American taxpayer to the tune of 39 billion dollars!  And you would be "honored to serve your country" as US Treasury Secretary????  You have gotta be shitting me, Dimon.  Start walking the talk instead of just spewing out a bunch of bullshit.

 

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:46 | 141154 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Where are our beloved congressmen screaming that these bonuses will be taxed at 90%?

Speak louder!  I can't hear ya!

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:31 | 141224 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

What the fuck, dude?  They're busy sucking off the bankers.  Give them a moment, for fuck's sake.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:49 | 141247 Rainman
Rainman's picture

They're busy hummin' the health care lobby, too.

These critters can handle 2, 4, 8 or 10 at a time.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:50 | 141159 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

IF this were China, not only wouldn't these guys be getting a bonus, they would be getting to live any longer....Would should be penalty be for wrecking a country's economy?

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:39 | 141309 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

don't worry that justice may actually be coming.  
but you may have to accept invasion to get it.

what if the choice ends up being sovereignity or justice?
which would you choose?

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:08 | 141403 Argonaught
Argonaught's picture

You have to choose Justice, right?  There is no freedom without justice, so what good is Sovereignty?

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:57 | 141165 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

They could refinance really pretty cheaply (Goldies senior trading at around T+110, JPM a little tighter) so I'm surprised they don't do this to completely get rid of the stigma of govt influence.

Let's say they refi $20bn of T flat debt over 5yrs = 110bps * 4.7 dv01 * 20bn = $1bn total cost.

And they could justifiably claim to be free of the govt yoke.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:02 | 141452 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

And not have to do chairity work, pay PR people, etc.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 18:59 | 141167 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Even suggesting this is so very un-American.

And beyond that, how do you the Our Lord God in Heaven feels about dissin' on his Annointed One?

Mortals: Next time, be more careful before your blasphemize one of the few Truly Righteous among us.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:02 | 141174 BlueStreak
BlueStreak's picture

Psalm 37:21

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:03 | 141175 just.a.guy
just.a.guy's picture

You fail to understand that if they don't pay the $20 Billion in bonuses then they will be unable to retain the top-notch talent that generated the need for $21.2 Billion in TLGP borrowings.

Or something.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:12 | 141278 Art Vandelay
Art Vandelay's picture

Indeed.  God's work don't come cheap.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:11 | 141182 deadhead
deadhead's picture

I imagine that von praag and canady check zh daily for the goldman scoop of the day, but just to be sure, has this already been emailed to von praag and canady anybody know?

I took the liberty to send this article with a plea to Arianna Huffington to add to HuffPo's daily exposes of the hypocricy of Goldman Sachs and the like.

I urge ZHers to send this to their congressional representatives who might appreciate the irony of Goldman and JP Morgan swearing off the need for government assistance yet raking in millions off this little taxpayer subsidized honey pot.  Oh yeah, let the congressperson know that this money is being used for bonuses.

Should I get this over to Drudge as well?  He likes this kind of ironic hypocritical crap doesn't he?

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:27 | 141214 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

Drudge is MSM, phoney as a 3 dollar bill. He covers what he is told to cover.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:56 | 141332 You Cant Handle...
You Cant Handle the Truth's picture

+1,000,000 LOLs

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:23 | 141414 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

LOL Drudge has morphed into the Obama Attack Machine. If a headline doesn't skewer Obama, it won't show up on Drudge. I stopped visiting that site months ago.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:10 | 141184 Crook County
Crook County's picture

TARP, TALF, TLGP, GE, MSNBC, JPM, FDIC, CNBC, GMAC... WTF?

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:11 | 141189 Cursive
Cursive's picture

The only "fair" thing for GS to do would be lock all exit doors at 85 Broad and hand out 9MM's to every employee.  Tell them that the last employee standing will be allowed to walk out with his/her life and $10M.  Just imagine the Lord-of-the-Flies type action that would ensue....BTW, the $10M wouldn't be from the firm's coffers - that would be seized be the Treasury - no, the $10M would be the pay-per-view via the footage captured by surveillance cameras inside the building.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:17 | 141195 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

But...but...I didn't hear about this on CNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN or any other respectable TV station. I think you have your facts wrong Mr Durden. Clearly no bank would be paying bonus money in the huge amounts claimed if these banks had any outstanding loans or other unsatisfied obligations to the American taxpayer.

To do so would be outrageous and completely un American. In fact, if this were true, I wouldn't want to live in a country as corrupt as this would indicate, so obviously you're mistaken. Check your facts sir.

<sarcasm off> 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:39 | 141232 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

UnAmerican?  Buddy this is 2009!  It's as American as TARP and Henry Kissinger.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:18 | 141198 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Pay it down bitches or suffer the consequences!

GE, you fucking motor mouth, book talking, shill fuckers. Brothers of The Squid.

Pay it back!

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:22 | 141207 Shylock81611
Shylock81611's picture

THIS SHIT MAKES ME COMPLETELY INSANE!

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:23 | 141209 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

The one thing I've learned recently watching the economic crisis is that these guys are not rocket scientists.

Now Tyler et al apparently is (are)

Keep it simple stupid -- I love that old truisms are ... well ... true.

Diversity and consensus thinking at its best -- the opposite of what is happening on Wall Street and Washington.

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:26 | 141213 deadhead
deadhead's picture

Could someone please ask Karl Denninger, Mish, Calculated Risk, Pragamatic Capitalist (i know you post here), Barry Ritholtz, etcetera, i.e. all the financial blogs to reprint this article and get on the bandwagon so we can all get a win on this?

Thanks.  Let's make something happen on this one. 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:30 | 141222 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Democrats push $150B stock tax on Wall Street

The bill, a copy of which was obtained by The Hill, is titled the “Let Wall Street Pay for the Restoration of Main Street Act of 2009.”
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/69295-dems-push-wall-street-150b-stock-tax

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:34 | 141226 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

A novice here: what is the big deal with this? These banks have issued TLGP-guaranteed debt in the amount shown above. They're also paying the appropriate fees. In what sense has GS taken/stolen $21.2bn from the FDIC?

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:43 | 141237 deadhead
deadhead's picture

I don't believe ZH has suggested that they have "stolen" money from the FDIC.

The big deal involves a couple of things, but one that has already been mentioned is the complete hypocricy of Goldman and JP Morgan suggesting that they are not being helped by the US Government nor do they need that assistance, yet their participation in the FDIC TLGP program contradicts directly that spin. 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:50 | 141251 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

I'm not sure they're denying being helped by the US government although they (certainly GS) deny needing it. I still fail to see what the big deal is here: the US Government offers a facility and the banks take advantage of it, paying a fee in the process. I just don't see what all the outrage is about.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:09 | 141271 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

The big deal is the taxpayer  is subsidizing the risk taking of the banks.

Debt issued with FDIC gurantee is much cheaper for the banks to finance then debt issued w/o the full faith and credit (such as it is) of the United States. 

So the risk of the issuing banks debt is being mispriced because the taxpayer is on the hook in case of default.  To the tune of billions of dollars.

See this post for an idea of the cost to the issuing bank absent the FDIC guarantee.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/removing-fdics-tlgp-crutches-results-major-funding-cost-divergence

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 21:18 | 141359 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

But the banks are not lending out this taxpayer backed debt . . . it's just sitting in reserves or in Treasuries.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 03:43 | 141646 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

 If you need some background on this issue, suggest you start by googling SIGTARP and check out the report on the AIG bailout.  Note the role Goldman played in that.  Have a barf bag handy, or some anti-nausea medication.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:59 | 141256 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

The debt is guaranteed debt by the taxpayer. Don't let the acronyms fool you. Goldman should be financing their risk not the peeps. The hypocrisy is the chest-beating over how well they manage risk but won't risk their own dollars. I think TD is right here, take them off the gov't teat. Can you get a gov't backed loan to gamble at the casino? What if they blow it? Based on recent history, it doesn't matter, they'll get more money to play with, bankers on training wheels, free market failures, let them step up with their own cash.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:05 | 141265 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

Why should they finance the risk if the government offers to do it? Taking the FDIC guarantee would be the prudent thing to do. I'm still not seeing the big problems here and I still don't see how in any sense GS owes $22bn to the FDIC.

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:15 | 141282 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

Cool, then lend me your AMEX so I can go gamble at the casino, if I go bust, I'll need your MasterCard, If I make a profit, I'll pay you back with the winnings on your money and bonus myself the balance.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:41 | 141315 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

How is that comparable? Given that only 10% of GS's profits/revenues come from prop trading the issuance of FDIC-guaranteed debt can hardly be said to be financing gambling.

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:53 | 141324 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

RIIIIIGHT. Well, they already have your AMEX buddy so lets hope they don't fuck it up (again).

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:34 | 141426 laughing_swordfish
laughing_swordfish's picture

It's more like the other way around.

in the last two quarters, over 80% of Goldman's profit has come from prop trading.

THe ISSUE is is that they should not be doing this with taxpayer money borrowed though the discount window at 0.00 - 0.125% or through borrowing on the open market with the explicit guarantee of the government.

The Squid has in effect become a GSE like Fanny and Freddie with all the moral hazard that pertains thereto.

I know you're new here , but this is a big issue to all of us at ZH.

 

KptLt. laughing swordfish

9er Unterseeboote Flotille

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:02 | 141503 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

No, the bulk of GS's profits come from agency business, not prop trading. You're missing the essence of the concerns/conspiracy theories about GS's market dominance.

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:47 | 141319 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

+ how does this analogy lead to GS owing the FDIC $22bn?

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:58 | 141333 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

Well, in a free market economy, GS would have simply collected the needed funds from trusting souls like you, shareholders, debt holders, etc. Not the Gov't. but since  GS can't function properly in a free market economy , it gets money from the gov't, like any other welfare recipient, and claims to be masters of risk, smartest boys in the room , etc.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 21:49 | 141391 Stevm30
Stevm30's picture

John... those guys at Goldman are all geniouses - didn't you hear?  That's what their mommies told them, at least. 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:26 | 141473 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

Yeah, they're still wearing gov't diapers just in case they make another mess. Mommy Fed, please clean my mess up...whah whah

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:40 | 141435 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Who's saying that GS owes any money to the FDIC? THey owe the principal & interest of the FDIC-guaranteed notes to the investors that purchased them. They need to redeem these notes that are yielding below market rates to truly be out from the influence of the gov't.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:39 | 141233 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Blasphemer! God's work must continue.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:02 | 141262 Rainman
Rainman's picture

Yes...... Tyler is trying to encourage us to take back our money from the collection plate. Please. Someone stop him.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 19:43 | 141238 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I love to see the cumulative interest expense amount saved by Goldman and these thieving bunch.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:25 | 141471 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

SPACE RANGER

READ THE ABOVE COMMENT.

Why should GS and other TBTFs get to do this? We should get some of the spread. They were the ones who fucked up loaning money to people who could not pay it back, then packaging it to other assholes who used the bags of shit as collateral for other deals that now need to unwind because the collateral is no good. They caused bankruptcies. People trusted the bags of shit. THEY COMMITED CRIMES AND WE ARE GIVING THEM MORE MONEY TO FIX THEMSELVES? THEY SHOULD BE IN JAIL NOW. AND THEY ARE SO OUT OF TOUCH THEY GIVE THEMSELVES BONUSES BEFORE THEY PAY US BACK? THEY ARE LUCKY TO BE OUT WALKING THE STREETS FREE.

Every breath they take they should be teary eyed and ashamed. They aren't for a reason. They are probably sociopaths and we are letting them walk free on the planet to do more damage. We should be treated like investors not like hosts for parasites.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:12 | 141510 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

Barrons claims the saving for GS is ~$600M per year. About $7Bn per year for all participants. 

Someone committed crimes? What crimes?

 

 

 

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 01:40 | 141582 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Fraud was once a crime. Breach of fiduciary duty? What about the Sox violations.
And last but not least, I will bet the house (yours and mine) that there are RICO violations.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:08 | 141269 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

First, GS ought to pay back taxpayers the $13 or $14 Billion it got from TaxCheat Timmy & Hanky Panky Paulson on the AIG pass-through to the counterparty GANGSTER BANKSTERS.

Then the balance of 2009 bonus money can be used to start paying off the TLGP.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 21:01 | 141339 deadhead
deadhead's picture

good point.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:22 | 141289 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

The transfer of wealth continues unabated. After all, the coke & hookers industries need to get their holiday bonuses as well.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:23 | 141293 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

First of all, Goldman can not just decide to pay off the guaranteed bonds because they feel like it. Bonds are contracts with specified redemption provisions. Second of all, the focus is on Goldman because they are minting money, but they were not alone in issuing FDIC-backed bonds. AIG and Citi have and will cost us a lot more than Goldman. In fact, if you want Goldman to pay for their success, make them buy AIG.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:55 | 141448 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Horsepiss. I'm sure they're not non-call. Who the fuck would buy a below-market non-call corporate (that wouldnt immediately swap that bond for one from the same issuer with a better cpn)? Pay the call premium and bring the debt in. What sort of dumb fuck are you? How's that KBW 1st year investment banking analyst program working out for you? Fuckstick.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:29 | 141477 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

"make them buy AIG."

Yummy! Open wide, eat it alllll up.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:34 | 141304 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I have been shouting this from the mountaintop for over a month. Welcome to the party, pal.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 20:49 | 141321 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

betya a bottom dollar gold takes off the day these fuckers get their bonus checks cashed.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:32 | 141424 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Especially since they prefer to. 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:41 | 141437 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Nice call

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:21 | 141516 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Some have received an advance on their bonus.  (Check the gold charts)

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 21:22 | 141365 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Hey Blankfein,

I got a message for ya. It's from God...

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 21:33 | 141374 Fritz
Fritz's picture

Goldman is a fucking bucket shop.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 21:43 | 141382 Kayman
Kayman's picture

At least Goldman's apologist has an appropriate name- Space Cadet.

What is wrong with Goldman is that they are feeding from the public trough, while trying to propogate the Big Lie that they are free enterprise swash bucklers.  They are, in fact, of the largest of the corporate welfare bums, devoid of any conscience to such an extent that they are prepared to extract money from the middle class to pay themselves bonuses, which by any measure are outrageous.  

Their inside man Hank Paulson (hey, no conflict of interest or defrauding the American public here) saved AIG primarily to pass Goldman the $14 billion that they otherwise would never have collected.  In total $24 billion without which Goldman was toast- Hank knew where his pension was coming from and he could not disappoint his oh-so-clever buddies.

I am certain that TD's proposal is only tongue in cheek, for to do the right thing Goldman would have to care what the American public is thinking and feeling in these extreme times. Goldman's response to the American people is Go Fuck Yourselves.

And that is the reason the Guillotine was invented during the French Revolution.  When your head is in the basket, even Space Cadet might get it.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:30 | 141421 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

Not the same old GS conspiracy bullshit again...

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:03 | 141454 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Are you a paid troll?

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:13 | 141513 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

Are you a paranoid tin-foil hatter? Evidence would seem to indicate that.

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:13 | 141406 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Kayman,

I see no posts by "Space Cadet". And I think you are wrong, factually and materially. I do not seek to defend GS. But, if you are going to sling shit, you should get your facts in order.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:17 | 141411 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

You do all realize that GS paid fees to participate in the FDIC program, right? You also realize that if GS made it through last winter it almost surely isn't going to go bankrupt in the next few years, right? So the government is making a profit on this program. Likewise the government made a profit lending to Goldman through TARP. If you want the government trying to take bigger profits in financial crises, you're crazier than me.

Even more importantly, a profitable GS is an enormous cash cow for the tax man. Corporate taxes on the profits, income taxes on the bonus, sales and property taxes on the consumption afterwards. Probably over half of any GS bonus comes right back into the government's hands within a year. Now if you voted for the anarchist candidate last year I apologize if your sensibilities are violated - but if you want the government to be doing something you probably should face up to where tax revenues come from, and it isn't poor people or blog posts.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:52 | 141446 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Wonderful, whats the fee they're paying? 20bps? 50bps? Unless it is dollar-for-dollar equivalent to the true market rate of interest they would have had to pay to float these bonds in the open market at the time they did, then they are indebted to the FDIC and the taxpayer. Period.

Further, while I wholeheartedly agree with you that *cash* bonuses will be taxed at 50%, a large part of these bonuses will be paid in stock and will ultimately be taxed much less than 50%.

Lastly, please derive the source of the money used to pay bonuses. Is it not from trading profits gained on the back of asset inflation due to liquidity injections by the Fed? Isn't the fact that GS, MS and others are even around today due to the stick-save these clowns pulled off at the zero hour last fall? Those profits did not create wealth, did not enhance broader prosperity, did not increase efficiencies, did not save lives. They came from flickering ticks on a computer screen. You & I both know trading is largely a zero sum game. Those profits were likely scraped off of whomever was on the other side of those trades.

GS is only around b/c they were saved. That bonus pool has only been accruing this year b/c GS is still around. They owe the Fed, the treasury, the FDIC, the taxpayers a GIGANTIC debt of gratitude. Period.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:15 | 141515 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

It looks like fees are 100bps for >1 year debt: http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/resources/TLGP/faq.html#cost

 

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 03:19 | 141635 theadr
theadr's picture

SR, If GS, et al could borrower more cheaply from the capital markets they would, they would retire this debt.  But they can't.... FU!!!

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 03:50 | 141648 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

If it isn't clear by now, SpaceRanger is Lloyd.  Funny guy. 

Now, beat it you fuck stick. You are a den of thieves and we are going to keep reminding our representatives who you are, what you did, and what needs to be done to clean up your mess.

Fuck stick, please remember that first and foremost, Lloyd was at the table when his buddy Hank Paulson realized Goldman was totally fucked without a bailout of AIG.  You guys stole $13 billion right then and there.  I want it back. 

Chumbawumba is on the other line and he told me to tell you to fuck off.

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:06 | 141455 deadhead
deadhead's picture

their competition has been effectively eliminated and the availability of cheap, taxpayer subsidized money only contributes more to their monopolistic like control of markets (take a look at the NYSE's program trading numbers for instance).

they dominate fixed income markets, due to lack of competitors.

if they want to go out and risk all of their own money i could give a rats ass.  problem is, they did it once before and had to come crying to their former ceo as treasury sec'y to bail them out and save their asses.  they survived because of the gov't teat and they are still on it.  they are not capitalists, they are parasites.

because another financial crisis is likely to happen mainly because virtually nothing has changed since lehman (actually, it's worse due to fasb 157 menagerie), it is not unreasonable to think they will be back to a failure potential situation.  the only way to avoid this is to break goldman and some of the other tbtf's down in size along with much higher levels of capital requirements.

all this aside, the theme of the post is for goldman to pay off the tlgp bonds that are a parasitic food source for goldman provided by the american taxpayer through a small handful of so called regulators.  additionally, please help us reconcile Blankfein's public statement that he wishes goldman had not even participated in the tlgp yet continues to take full advantage of said program.  how can this not be hypocricy? 

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:08 | 141459 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Smalls, you're killing me...

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:09 | 141460 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It appears to me that their are some paid apologists visiting zero hedge.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:21 | 141517 SpaceRanger
SpaceRanger's picture

I think you mean "people who aren't complete paranoid black helicopter-fearing types". Whenever there's a mention of GS on ZH the site goes into a 9/11 Truther-style nutjob mode. You guys really need to get out of your moms' basements occasionally.

 

 

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 03:52 | 141650 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

Nice try, fuck stick.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:13 | 141463 deadhead
deadhead's picture

You do all realize that GS paid fees to participate in the FDIC program, right?

I don't know what the fees are. 

I doubt that the total of fees plus lower interest paid on the tlgp funds is higher than borrowing money in the capital markets.  ergo, taxpayer subsidy.

as to your discussion about taxes paid and the source thereof, do you really think the typical zh reader is not aware of this matter?  Like many others, I don't like paying outrageous amounts in taxes either (i live in ny) but the issue of taxes paid vs the manner in which the income is earned are two different matters.  Nice try on your part but you're mixing apples and oranges.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:16 | 141514 Stevm30
Stevm30's picture

Even more importantly, a profitable GS is an enormous cash cow for the tax man. Corporate taxes on the profits, income taxes on the bonus, sales and property taxes on the consumption afterwards. Probably over half of any GS bonus comes right back into the government's hands within a year.

Surely you jest with this argument. SURELY!

Do you think we are six years old? 

So the only alternative to you and your buddies STEALING, vis-a-vis their political connections, the money of the average American, is ANARCHY? 

Surely you jest... SURELY.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 05:27 | 141686 Jendrzejczyk
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:03 | 142013 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Good catch. Space Ranger needs to take a peek.

Thu, 11/26/2009 - 11:14 | 143079 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Hard to recall, but I think I was following one of your links in another thread when I found that.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:25 | 141416 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Systemic risk= very rich are losing money

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:38 | 141430 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

"DOING GOD'S WORK!"
"I need the money!"
Who does this schmuck think he is....Oral Roberts?
Did God threaten to strike him dead but he hasn't told us yet?

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 22:40 | 141436 The Rock
The Rock's picture

Don't you know?  The Goldmans are the "untouchables", they can do whatever the fuck they want.

Paulson sold Congress on the idea that the $700,000,000,000.00 bailout was so that the banks could lend again.  ROFLMFAO!

Soon after the scam was "approved", what does BofA do right after they get money?  Lend it to U.S. citizens or small businesses?  NOOOOO!  They go and spend $7,000,000,000.00 on upping their stake in China Construction Bank!  WTF!!!

 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:13 | 141462 Arthur
Arthur's picture

To follow on The Rock point.

Talk about JPM being hypocrites.  How about this true refi story.  I closed about 30 days ago.

My old mortgage broker, amazingly still in the business, called me up to refi at 4.875% on a 30 year conforming loan.  Since we bought our home over 15 years ago it is still worth 3x what we owe. Credit score 800+ and we are still working.

I called my friendly JPM banker for a price check and the best they will do is 5.5% for a lousy $250k.  The thing is we have $150k+ in a JPM checking account and 400k+ in a Tbill fund and short term bonds in a JMP account.  WTF!?  If I can’t get a good rate from JPM, who can?  JPM sure as heck is not reinvesting in America.  What are they doing with the money?

The kicker, the deal is done at 4.875 with SunTrust and 30 days later I just received a letter telling me SunTrust flipped the loan to Sallie Mae but SunTrust will continue to service the loan.  At least I know Sallie Mae has one good loan on the books.

Boy, sure glad to have paid in my share of Tarp funds.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:39 | 141488 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Wow Arthur. You just started a new reality show for the blog. It will get boring soon though after a few episodes of "Flip my loan."

Say, what is the paper work like on that flip? Maybe you could stop paying your mortgage now and insist that Sallie Mae come up with the original documents to prove that the loan is theirs. Just thinking out loud...

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 03:26 | 141641 theadr
theadr's picture

What:  Fannie, Freddie FHA are all full?  Now we got the Student Loan people doing mortgages?  WTF!!! Why doesn't GE just buy everything and GS can finance it?!?

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 04:03 | 141654 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

sallie mae investing in home loans now...how lovely.  

arthur, please do us and yourself a favor and spend a day over thanksgiving to consider other places to park your wealth other than JPMo.   whatever you decide is your choice, just please consider alternatives.

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:24 | 141469 deadhead
deadhead's picture

do some of the new managing directors have writing homework assignments to assist the lloyd blankfein public relations tour?

 

LB....your recent p.r. campaign is not only not working, it is backfiring!  you have succeeded in the last 6 weeks or so of the tour in taking Goldman from the most hated corporation in the USA for 2009 (maybe the world?) to the most hated corporation in the USA for likely 2010 and maybe even 2011. I'm of the thought that it is going to get even worse for Goldman Sachs because you have genuinely succeeded in really pissing off millions of Americans and that number, and their anger, is growing exponentially. 

Tue, 11/24/2009 - 23:30 | 141479 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Goldman should give the bonus money to the unemployed.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:08 | 141499 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

And the Lord said unto Lloyd Blank-dick:

"Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord."

And God spoke all these words:

"These are the laws you are to set before them:

1. Thou shalt not front run.

2. Thou shalt not skim thy neighbor by HFT.

3. Thou shalt not naked short sell thy neighbor into oblivion.

4. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's toupee.

5. Thou shalt not claim thy work is the Lord's in vain.

The Prophet Lloyd Blank-dick said unto the Lord:

"They that hate me without cause are more than the hairs of my head."

And the Lord said unto Lloyd Blank-dick:

"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. You have no hair on your head, hence there are none who hate you without cause."

"Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

"I the Lord thy God shall offer up to them a profit of their brethren, like thee, and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him."

Thus the Lord gave the Prophet Lloyd a loophole so that he may become the Profit Lloyd Blank-dick.

And the Profit Lloyd Blank-dick said unto the American Sheeple:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor."

Thus Lloyd performs the Work of the Lord thy God. And blessed are the American Sheeple who are now poor. For they are helping the Profit Lloyd do God's work.

Note: Since Lloyd invoked God into the debate... Old Teastment is fair game...

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 02:53 | 141629 tom a taxpayer
tom a taxpayer's picture

TD is doing God's work...David bringing down Goliath.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:03 | 141505 Stuart
Stuart's picture

I want to see these Goldman bastards on pikes!  

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 00:27 | 141520 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Black Friday cometh, but...
How ironic instead we hang ourselves at Walmart.
sigh...
The good ol days.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 01:36 | 141579 Duke of Con Dao
Duke of Con Dao's picture

Thanks for that info and schedule. 

On my next re-cut of Old Boy versus bloodsucking Goldman squid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9yvSmSGjNg

I'll add in a line about the TGLF... better yet I'm looking for new stuff to do

perp walk of the top 8 banks sucking off the program.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 03:05 | 141630 tom a taxpayer
tom a taxpayer's picture

 

URGENT:

Attention state and federal prosecutors working on cases that may lead to indictments at Goldman Sachs.

Pull passports on Goldman Sachs employees before $20 billion bonuses issued.

 

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 10:33 | 141905 HEHEHE
HEHEHE's picture

I wouldn't mind the bonuses if they actually had to work for them.  When the gubmint/Fed basically gives the banks a couple $1T to buy up a bunch of depressed stocks and hard assets, suspends mark to market AND guarantees their debt how f'g hard could it be to turn a profit?

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 10:46 | 141922 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Dear Anonymous 11/24/2009/18:17

Gee, I don't know who Space Cadet is, either...

So, let me understand your logic:    First you rob all your neighbors through your bought and paid for agent, the U.S. Congress, then you reward yourself by engorging on this new found treasure by awarding yourself a bonus. (Perversely, maybe Hank should be rewarded for the largest daylight theft in recorded history).

 Now, beating your chest as an example of a free-enterprise capitalist, you announce you might be paying taxes on these stolen funds.

Gosh, you are right and I am wrong. Sigh...

GSA= Goldman Sacks apologist.

Wed, 11/25/2009 - 13:36 | 142124 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I think Sheila Bair already suggested we should demand TGLP paydown before any bonuses could be paid.

And that was several months ago, too.

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