Q&A With Jim Grant: Look For "QE 3 Through QE N"
By now it has been made very clear that Jim Grant is firmly in the (correct, at least according to us) camp that no matter what, the Fed will be forced to proceed with at least one more (and likely many) round of quantitative easing. In his latest must read interview, the author of Grant's Interest Rate Observer further explains, in simple terms, not only why the Fed is boxed in when it comes to monetary policy (an assessment comparable to that by Marc Faber back in March: "We may drop 10 to 15 percent. Then QE 2 will come, (then) QE 4, QE 5,
QE 6, QE 7—whatever you want. The money printer will continue to print,
that I'm sure. Actually I made a mistake. I meant to
say QE 18."), but also refutes the fallacy of counterfactual statements that the world would end if the Fed had not intervened to prevent a systemic collapse in 2008, why a gold standard in our lifetimes is coming, on whether he is buying gold currently, on inflation, on corporate valuation, and where (and more importantly when) investors should be putting money to work.
A graduate of Indiana University, Grant, 64, was a Navy gunner's mate
before starting his journalism career at the Baltimore Sun in 1972. He
then joined the financial weekly Barron's before starting Grant's
Interest Rate Observer in 1983. He's also written seven books, mostly
financial histories and profiles. His first book was on Bernard Baruch,
the pre-WWI financier and advisor to presidents. His latest is a profile
of Thomas Reed, an acerbic and witty Speaker of House over 100 years
As stocks were falling last week, Grant visited The
Associated Press in New York to talk about why it's not just stock
investors who should be worried. Below are excerpts, edited for
clarity, from a wide-ranging conversation in which he lit into the
Federal Reserve for our current troubles, warned of 10 percent inflation
and waxed nostalgic for a time when Washington had the courage to let
prices fall in crises rather than goose them up and prolong our agony.
Q: What's your view of the stock market?
The Federal Reserve has unilaterally taken it upon itself to levitate
asset prices. It is suppressing interest rates. When you're not getting
anything on your savings, you are inclined to go out and buy something,
anything, to generate either income or the expectation of capital gains.
So the things that we take as prices freely determined are in fact
A few months ago, (Fed Chairman) Ben S. Bernanke,
Ph.D., the former chairman of the Princeton economics department, stood
before the cameras of CNBC and said that the Russell 2000 is making new
highs. The Russell! He sounded like another stock jockey. He was
taking credit for new highs in the small cap equities index. The Fed, as
never before, or rarely before, is now the steward of this bull market.
One wonders what it will do if stocks pull back significantly.
Q: Are stocks overvalued?
Some big multinationals left behind in the past ten years (like)
Wal-Mart, Cisco Systems, Johnson & Johnson appear to be attractively
priced. But generally speaking, things are rich.
Q: What would you have done in the financial crisis if you had been in Bernanke's position?
Resign. I don't know. I have great faith in the price mechanism, in
the mechanics of markets. I think there should have been much less
intervention and we should have let some chips fall, many chips fall.
the Great Depression, there was a great depression (lower case `g') in
1920-21. Within 18 months, the GDP was down double digits and commodity
prices collapsed. Harry Truman lost his haberdashery in Kansas City.
It was very painful, but it ended. And the Fed, during that depression,
actually raised its discount rate and the Treasury ran a surplus. The
reason it ended was the so-called real balance effect -- that is, prices
came down and people with savings saw things that were cheap and they
invested. That's the fast and ugly approach.
The slow and ugly
approach is to mitigate, temporize and forestall to give us time to work
ourselves out of difficulties. That's the current approach. I think
it's intended to be a more humane approach, but I wonder about its
humanity. I mean these college kids get out of school and they've got
nothing. It's awful -- 9 percent unemployment and going nowhere except
Q: But Bernanke has succeeded by some measures. Big
companies are flush with cash, their profits are on track to hit a
record this year and the riskiest among them are raising money at the
lowest rates ever. Who could have imagined this during the depths of
the financial crisis?
A: Let's go back to the previous cycle of
2002-3. Cisco Systems was for 15 minutes the costliest company on the
face of the earth, and digital technology was about to raise every human
being out of poverty. OK, so that cycle ends -- Bang! -- with general
disarray in the stock market. What do we do? Well, we press down
interest rates and we give residential real estate a little helping
hand. What's not to like? Home ownership rates are rising. Stocks are
up. Risky companies are issuing debt at levels never before imagined.
would have dreamt such an outcome was possible after the tech bust? And
that ended noisily and here we are again and our monetary masters have
devised new, even more audacious methods of stimulus. In three or four
years we'll look back and say, `Can you believe we fell for this again?'
Q: You've been warning about higher inflation for a while. How imminent is it?
I've been all wrong on this. I thought that this massive monetary stuff
would generate the conventional kind of inflation that would be
expressed in much higher CPI readings. Not so far. But all things are
cyclical and the seemingly impossible is just around the corner. On
September 30, 1981, the 30-year US Treasury bond traded at 14 7/8
percent and I remember some crank, some visionary, was talking about how
interest rates were going to zero, you watch. Oh, yeah right. And so it
came to pass.
It does seem improbable that the inflation rate
would ever get beyond 3.5 percent, let alone knock on the door of 10
percent. But I'm here to tell you it's going to 10 percent.
Q: Won't policymakers come down hard if we get even 6 percent inflation and try to lower that?
Sometimes they can't control things. We had 6 percent inflation
before. Washington is full of well-intentioned people. Ben Bernanke
keeps saying that what we really need is a little inflation. He says
we'll get 2 percent or a little bit more. You shouldn't even think
that, let alone say it out loud. That's such bad luck to tempt fate by
saying that you can calibrate things like that. You can't do that.
Q: So with inflation ahead, are you buying gold at $1,480 an ounce?
I am not buying it now. I have bought it in the past. Gold is a very
difficult investment because its value is indeterminate. It is the
reciprocal of the world's confidence in the likes of Ben Bernanke. I
think the price will go higher.
Q: When did you first buy gold?
Well, my first misadventure with gold was standing in a queue in front
of the Nicholas Deak currency and coin shop, which was on lower
Broadway. And it might have been January of 1980 at the very peak but if
not then, it was late 1979. I almost top ticked it. That was before I
learned never to stand in line to buy an asset. You always want to go
where nobody else is in line.
Q: Let's talk about the dollar. Washington says it wants a strong dollar.
It's disingenuous when (Treasury Secretary) Tim Geithner says he's for a
strong dollar. What he means to say is the economy stinks and we need
even greater oomph from our exports and for that we would like a much
lower dollar in a measured, managed kind of decline. That's what he
wants, and he wants it by November 2012.
Q: What's wrong with a
weak dollar? Caterpillar recently said it is nearly doubling its capital
spending because the weak dollar allows it to sell more overseas. It
plans to spend much of that on factories in the U.S., paying
construction workers to build them and hiring people to work in them.
Well, that is the Caterpillar story. The whole manufacturing story in
the U.S. is very sunny, and it's in part due to the state of the dollar.
But if (prosperity) were as easy as debasing one's currency, think of
all the countries that would be prosperous that are rather the opposite.
Argentina would be booming. And Weimar Germany would not be a story of
failure but of success.
If the world were to lose confidence in
(the dollar) we would suddenly be in a much less advantageous financial
position. The U.S. is uniquely privileged in that we alone may pay our
bills in the currency that only we may lawfully print. That's our
prerogative as the reserve-currency country. But it has seduced us into a
state of complacency. We never actually pay the rate of interest that
we might be expected to pay -- the real rate of interest -- on Treasury
It's great for now that we're paying 2.5 percent or
whatever on our public debt. But wouldn't it be better if there were an
accurate price signal that was telling us that we're borrowing too much?
Q: If investors lose their faith in the dollar, what would replace it?
I think there will be a gold standard again in your lifetime, if not
mine. It's the only answer to the question, if not the dollar, then
Q: Where should people put their money now?
trouble with the present is that nothing is actually cheap. My big
thought is that our crises are becoming ever closer in time. The
recovery time from the Great Depression was 25 years. The stock market
peaked in 1929. It got back there in 1954. We had a peak in 2000, crash,
levitation, then the biggest debt crisis in anybody's memory. The
cycles are becoming compressed. The temptation to become invested at
peaks of these shorter cycles is ever greater.
Perhaps one way to
proceed is to hold cash at the opportunity cost of not much in Treasury
bills. You make nothing, but you want to have this money when things are
absolutely, not just relatively, cheap. This time of full or
overvaluation shall pass. On recent form, it'll pass in a thunderclap
and there will be a panic and it'll seem as if the world's ending. And
that's when somebody who is nimble can get fully invested in a
It won't feel comfortable, it will feel awful,
but I think that's the way to do it. I mean everything (you could invest
in) is either uninteresting or rich, it seems to me.
Q: What about Treasury bonds?
I think it's useful to imagine how things might look ten years hence.
What will one's children, heirs or successors think about a purchase
today of ten-year Treasurys at 3.25 percent? They'll look back and say,
`What were they thinking?' The (federal deficit) was running at 10
percent of GDP, the Fed had pressed its interest rates to zero, it had
tripled the size of its balance sheet, and they bought bonds? Treasurys
are hugely uninteresting, as is similar government debt the world over.
Q: Any last thoughts?
Because the Fed has coaxed or cajoled people into stocks, including
many financial non-professionals, I think it has moral ownership of the
market in a way that no recent Fed has had. Either the stock market owns
the Fed, or vice versa but they are too intertwined now. If stocks pull
back by 20 percent, how can Bernanke just sit there and say, `I want a
bear market?' I think he has some moral responsibility for the
finances of the non-professionals who bought.
Q: Does this mean the Fed might announce QE 3, a third round of quantitative easing to lower rates and raise stock prices?
A: Yeah, it means QE 3 through QE N.
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