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Quantifying The Treasury's Plunder Of Retirement Accounts: $80 Billion Between The G- And CSRD Funds Since Debt Ceiling Breach
Last Thursday we attempted a rough estimation of how much the Treasury has been dipping, or as it is also known "disinvesting", into the G-fund and the Civil Service Retirement and Disability Fund (CSRDF). Courtesy of Stone Mountain, we now have a definitive number. Even we did not realize how bad it is: in a nutshell, since the debt ceiling breach in mid May, Tim Geithner has replaced one IOU (that of the Fed) with another (that of the Treasury) in the G Fund to the tune of $57 billion, and in the CSRDF of about $22 billion. In other words, retirement funds have seen a "disinvestment" of nearly $80 billion in the past 3 weeks just to make space for further funding of bloated government, defense spending, and healthcare benefits. But don't worry: Tim promises it shall all be well.
From Stone McCarthy:
Treasury's release this afternoon of its Monthly Statement of Public Debt provides more insight into how much of those options Treasury has tapped so far. The following chart shows non-marketable securities held by the CSRDF each month since April of last year.
In May, those holdings declined $21.8 billion. Non-marketable holdings by the CSDRF are volatile on a monthly basis, but that decline is larger than average. In reality, there isn't that much mystery about the room created by redeeming securities held by the CSDRF. Treasury Secretary Geithner made it pretty clear when he announced on May 16 that he was declaring a Debt Issuance Suspension Period (DISP) for about 2 1/2 months -- from May 16 to August 2. The amount of room created by redeeming securities held by the CSDRF depends on the length of the DISP. In a nutshell, Treasury can create -- upfront -- about $6 billion per month of the DISP, plus a little bit more related to the suspension of new investments by the CSDRF.The change in the balance of securities held by the Thrift Savings Fund was more telling. This fund is also known as the "G-Fund;" it's one investment fund available to federal employees who participate in the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP), which is a defined contribution retirement plan available to federal employees.
The balance in the G-fund was $73.3 billion as of May 31, down $56.0 billion from the end of April. As our next chart shows, the pattern is for the balance in the G-fund to drift higher. Over the last year, the G-fund balance increased by about $1.1 billion each month. If we assume that would have occurred in absence of debt ceiling actions, then we can assume that Treasury suspended investing about $57.0 billion of G-fund securities in order to create room under the debt limit.
And people were angry when they seized Irish pensions...
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Who needs retirement anyhow!?!
..retirement is transitory.
Tell that to Geitner when you take his all his personal accounts away from him. I wonder if he squeals like all the other piggies ?
Here is the point: They can't.
They cannot take away earned pensions from government employees. This is well established law, already ruled on by the Supreme Court decades ago.
In short, we the taxpayers are legally required make good on these pensions. If we already paid for them, and congress/the fed/the treasury/the frickin' moonies spend all the money on other things, well... too bad. We pay for it again. Period. No choice in the matter.
This is just a backdoor way to extract more money from the taxpayers... and congress can claim "our hands are tied".
Bend over, suckers. Government pensions outrank taxpayer's wishes. They can steal it and make you pay for it again, and there's nothing you can do about it. Hell, they can steal it again next year and every year... and make you refill it again and again. Over and over and over...
Written right into the Constitution of the People's Republik of Kalifornia too...the other Greece .
I'm soo far ahead of ya ?
They will always pay, but will what they receive be worthless? If I were a retired govt. worker, I'd ask for mine in $50. gold eagles at face value.
Take it all !!! Piss it away on reconstruction in Haiti !!!............Monedas is pleased to announce that John Maynard Keynes was never knighted ! Thank you King George !.............Monedas' History Primer : #1 Nobel = TNT. #2 Hitler = Meth. #3 Leary = LSD. #4 Keynes = Fiat. #5 Monedas = http://trololololololololololo.com/
Just like now we have a social security crisis, because they spent the money already, in 10 years we will have a Federal Pension Crisis, cause they are spending the money now.
Of course, SS is different. It is not legally considered a pension, so it is not defined as earned (but deferred) income.
If memory serves, SS is legally treated as a transfer program like welfare. And that means unlike pensions, you and I have absolutely NO property rights to a single dime of it. In the legal heirarchy, SS sits somewhere down at the bottom, with the red-headed stepchildren and rented mules.
Law or not. They could write a last hour pass like tarp to dissolve it. But I think USA will be at a world war long before that.
Do really think we will have revolutions here in the USA? Or will they have ww3 to rally the union.
"Do really think we will have revolutions here in the USA? Or will they have ww3 to rally the union.".
No to the first question, as long as there are new phone apps, video games, netflix, and factory bio-Vat brewed meat for fast food shops.
Yes to the second, Americans love a spectacle or ruckus and don't hesitate to send their first born to bring home honorable mention.
And, a note on the main article...if Timmy is going it, so is every state, county and municipal. When the money is gone, what do you do call ghostbusters?
The thing about laws is they can be ignored or re-written at will.
"The illegal we do right away. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
Henry Kissinger
..... he was (for those born in the 60's or later) referring to President Nixon...nod and wink. Watergate, Vietnam and Cambodia, and ho, a few other things.
Ford pardoned all crimes against the Nation and Constitution that Nixon may or did do. And, so set the stage for executive privilege to do as seen convenient with no fear of repercussion (unless it has to do with sex).
Funny how things can follow on when they are not properly made examples of for all to learn from.
Exactly.
There is nothing mystical about any man-made written law. Without mutual consent to abide by it, there can be none.
Not a pretty picture either IMO.
Should be interesting when Timmah pulls out the "Hey!...this is your retirement we're talkin about here as well, Congress!!!" card ;-)
"They cannot take away earned pensions from government employees. This is well established law, already ruled on by the Supreme Court decades ago.
In short, we the taxpayers are legally required make good on these pensions."
It is good to recall, when those who might imply it is somehow unfair that government workers be paid the retirement they contributed to their entire working lives, and in stark contrast to corporations like GE, Boeing, and Wall St fat cats (like Mayor Bloomberg who off-shored much of his personal wealth to avoid paying taxes), these government workers actually paid taxes during their working years and will continue paying taxes on their pension income, assuming the government does not renege on its obligations in some form or fashion.
These are contribution accounts, much like 401(k)s, but they are called Thrift Savings Plan. People have actually contributed portion of their paychecks to the G fund, without any matching. The treasury is looting money from responsible folks who wish to save for their own retirement.
Using another's money or property without expressed knowledge or permission is called...Conversion.
Conversion is a form of statuary fraud.
Black market. The only way to beat 'em.
Property tax revenues are dropping and budget cuts are announced almost weekly. Public employees are retiring ASAP...
So is life.
Obama: My fellow Americans, we must erect systemts to quantitatively ease those that are too big to fail.
Butt-head: Huh huh huh huh. He said, "erect ... ease ... too big. "
Beavis: Oh, yeah. He said it.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2298/5804732091_d925ef40bd.jpg
Ummm isn't Geithner beavis in this pic?
If they will rob federal employees, they will rob private citizens with even LESS reservations.
Has anyone seen a legal argument on this issue? Of course "sovereign immunity" covers-up a host of sins. I assume ERISA is silent on this matter, but don't know in the case of the federal government.
But how is this not "debt"? Clearly the beneficiaries of these pension funds have a legal claim on the assets of the fund. Even if de-funding the funds is allowable (if immoral), how is this not debt.
The government taxpayers will have to pay it back.
Presumably they will have to pay it back with interest.
How is this different from any other debt issued by the government?
Debt to the Social Security "Trust" Fund, i.e., the entire balance of the "trust" fund, is counted as debt, even if the unfunded liability is not. Why is this not similarly treated?
Has anyone seen a discussion of this?
Also, for clarification, is this tapping of the funds,
1. literally grabbing existing fund assets, or
2. not making contributions to the fund as scheduled
Obviously the effect is the same, but I am unclear on the mechanism
from my limited understanding the federal employees pay into the fund in cash which is (largely)invested in treasuries.
so the government is redeeming the treasuries for cash. I think it might be one of those "full faith and credit" deals.
main point: there are no existing funds, because of the intertwined nature of cash and treasuries, they get payed unless the government can't pay. catch 22, none of it actually exists.
edit: rainman said it below me in the time it took me to type this.
Wonder what interest rate these forced borrowings are netting the retirees. If the Treasury borrowed these funds from Goldman, you bet they'd be "extracting" some serious yield - like 1,000bp. The employees are probably not even being paid an extra 100bp.
FSS, "investing" for sure. how's that negative yield after inflation treatin' ya? surreal that the system can be so convoluted that people don't even realise they are losing money.
"That's as good as money, sir. Those are IOUs."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GSXbgfKFWg
+275000. Might want to hang on to that one Mr Samsonite.
Cali has been working the same scam for years and look how good it's working out for them. Their pension contributions are deferred but counted as money good in the pension fund. Money good...I made a funny.
Step out and ellaborate R/M.
Municipality deferred funding of pension funds. There are 58 counties in CA. Just one, Riverside County in SoCa ( Palm Springs, LaQuinta, Rancho Mirage) owes over $800M . That's just one.
State of New York is more clever......borrowed $5 billion from the pension fund to repay the $5 billion they owe the pension fund. Keeps everybody thinking all gubmint promises are good...HAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!
Are you a police officer with a thought? No you an ordinance officer. I am all ears I am all ears You are a good person and part of a dysfunction that needs to be corrected.
A shell game without the pea ;-)
Yes
Seems so yen...now if we could get the other 10% needed to wake up ;-)
I'm half Jewish and half Christian! Need I say more?
ROTFL!!!
Now, if you were Caucasian and born in Alabama, you'd have it all wrapped up!...it would all be completely your fault no matter what the issue were...LOL!
That's what we call lifting yourself up by your own bootstraps.
Same situation in PA. Democrat governor Rendell stopped all state-side contributions back around 2003. I don't have the act in front of me, but there was some time limit to this deferment, something like 8 years. So, basically, he and the Republican legislature wasted that money (and more) on other stuff for the next 6 or 7 budgets. Yeah, you heard me, the budget GREW even though it wasn't paying into the pension plans.
So come about 2008/2009 when all these national economic problems started really hitting, all you heard on talk radio was this "sudden" pension spike for evil overpaid state employees who were the sole cause for every deficit ever. Seriously, "conservatives" were blaming taxpayers whose pensions weren't even being paid for budgets other "conservatives" kept helping to inflate. It's not letting liberals off the hook, their people stuffed the budget with crap too and made it late every single year.
My point is, they both screwed state employees and then, somehow, got the public at large to blame them for their own raping. It's so difficult to give a damn about your fellow citizens when they're either too stupid so see this broad daylight robbery or too mean to put aside their jealousy and stop this before it gets to their retirement money too.
It seems unlikely (to me) that a licensed, practicing attorney would seek to challenge this decision by the Treasury. They would have way too much to lose by filing any kind of complaint. Licensed attorneys are compelled to tow the political line if they wish to continue practicing law. If they bite the hand that feeds them, they stand to lose everything, as they would no doubt have trumped-up ethics charges filed against them through their respective state bar associations. Most attorneys would likely look the other way and choose not to touch this issue with a ten-foot pole.
BTW, I'm definitely not an attorney, but I did stay at a holiday inn express one time.
If they will rob federal employees, they will rob private citizens with even LESS reservations.
The Empire is built on paper and promises.
The bullets and bombs on credit.
I Like it: big apparatchik screwing little apparatchiks. This needs to continue.
There's one thing going on here, and it's very simple: leverage. Take money from the pension accounts, and when the pensioners start really noticing and come complaining, point at the "holdup in the congress", and attack the Repubs for "compromising America's ability to respond to the real pressing problems it faces".
Bring voting bloc to the polls in 2012 on the theme that the evil GOP is out to stop all forward progress even if it means offering up pensions on the sacrificial altar.
Disclaimer: I can't stand either of the big two, so don't call me a partisan.
Doesn't this only become an "issue" if the debt ceiling isn't raised and this money is never heard from again?
Yes
treasury down to $44 billion. $75 billion spent in the 1st 3 days. ho hum. think that 44 can last til settlement next week?
https://www.fms.treas.gov/fmsweb/viewDTSFiles?dir=w&fname=11060300.pdf
Seems like the Jeetner hitting the debt ceiling in the next 3-4 days is what John Taylor was alluding to in an earlier post about the end of QE and going long the $USD.
Once the equity markets, commodities & the Euro take a pounding (perhaps allowing some of those silver shorts to cover some of their exposure), I suspect that all the squealing from far & near will quickly provide the Fed cover to start QE3...
Because we should expect the US government to loot its pension system.
you should expect the government to do any damn thing it pleases. Worst comes to worst, they will claim authority under the big "National Security" umbrella which we all seem at home with.
Of Course, 'they' could just lay-off government employees for a few weeks a month as is being done in the private sector. I mean aren't we hearing from ALL politians...'we have to share the pain".
hello there and good morning.
why do you think they used that pension fund to start with? How else do you think are they going to scare up another debt ceiling raise?
"Dear all. If we don't raise the debt ceiling, you are all going to live in cardboard boxes under your nearest bridge. Eating bark. Twice a day."
That was my point :)
good ;-)
I am forced to pay into "my" pension fund each and every month, all while knowing that in 30 years either:
1) the money is worthless
2) the current economic system will have collapsed and with it all the social and collective funds
3) the government will have spent those funds for some stupid crap
4) all of the above
and I live in the country with the highest per capita GDP in the world...
Sums it up quite well.
++2 Tons
Drink,
And your point is correct. This is what constituency building looks like, central planning style, establishing an even firmer connection between the fate of the Fed and the fate of the Federal Employee Union.
Stratification and class warfare, baby. Must divide that which you are attempting to conquer.
Wait till they move on to the 401Ks and IRAs. Better be a big bridge.
TSP is the 401K for federal employees hired since 1990 or so. Since Tim can snatch this one in the name of some fiscal imperative it is only a mater of time before Tim takes the rest from everyone else and replaces it with a zero coupon benbuck.
401k's and IRA's fall under IRS guidelines , no? therefore it is my contention, that it will not be such a stretch to conclude that such an attack on them will be feasible, after all the feds will say that they fall under their control anyway.........and they do.......again, the goon squad offers and we accept......again and again......
This is the 401(k) confiscation channel on the government internet tube.
They don't appear to have done anything since the big September 2010 public hearing following the RFI and comment period published in the FR in February 2010. There is several hundred pages of testimony from the hearings available.
Incidentally, they are called "Lifetime Income Options" not "401(k) confiscations" so that all the dumb little piglets who suckle the government tit will cheer for their pending "Lifetime Income" from Uncle Sam.
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/regs/cmt-1210-AB33.html
http://webapps.dol.gov/FederalRegister/DocumentList.aspx?AgencyId=8&DocumentType=3
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/aboutebsa/erisa_advisory_council.html
Hey, that's how I grew up !
The joke is on them.. those brainless fuck-wads won't know what hit them. They've nary a clue that .gov is, yet again, stealing their purple epics from their pockets.
+1 for World of Warcraft reference... lol
It wouldn't surprise me if the replenishment of the retirement funds will be called something different, i.e. federal retirement replenishment act. It could be a separate spending item that, while impacting the debt ceiling, the funding for which will be a no brainer that every politician not wanting to commit political suicide will vote for.
It's actually a brilliant idea. Spend the money on things that might be unpopular with the replenishment of such funds passing with a unanimous vote.
How about 'Build America Bonds'. LOL
Principal + interest. The feds have this annoying habit of forgetting the interest when they're the ones doing the back payments and never forgetting the interest when it is owed the $
It will also be an issue if/when the debt ceiling is raised. By law the funds must be returned when the ceiling is raised, which means an additional $80 billion and counting of treasuries will have to be auctioned off come August 2 in addition to the normal auction needs.
I was thinking the same thing. Which means that QEIII might need to happen around... September-ish? to prevent interest rates from running away.
They might even spin it in a way like - the lending rates are based on treasuries, so if treasury rates rise then housing (and other financed purchases) will be under renewed pressure. We wouldn't want to kill this to young to die recovery would we?
Now that's team spirit; we're looking for a few good civil servants...
So Tyler, how long do you really think we have left until this baby is bleed to death
Why can't we put everything off the books like the pentagon? Claim matters of national security?
Anybody remember this?
GOVERNMENT SACHS TELL US THE TRUTH
"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth. Son, we live in a country with an investment gap. And that gap needs to be filled by men with money. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Middle Class Consumer? Goldman Sachs has a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lehman and you curse derivatives. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know: that Lehman's death, while tragic, probably saved the financial system. And that Goldman's existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves pension funds. You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want us to fill that investment gap. You need us to fill that gap. "We use words like credit default swaps, collateralized debt obligation, and securitization? We use these words as the backbone of a life spent investing in something. You use 'em as a punchline. We have neither the time nor the inclination to explain ourselves to a commoner who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very credit we provide, and then questions the manner in which we provide it! We'd rather you just said thank you and paid your taxes on time. Otherwise, we suggest you get an account and start trading. Either way, we don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"
Code Red?
I got pics, Rusty.?
- got pics of what, Yen Cross.?
Singapore!
YES !!!
That was beautiful.............
JP Morgan can use an alcoholic Injun like you Geronimo. Now just fail this online ethics test for us and we'll send a G550 to pick you up...
Sorry, I can't handle the truth
<puts fingers in ears> La la la la la la....
Solicitor General - Chairman Bernanke, did you order the Code QE3?
Bernanke - "You're God Damn right, I did!"
LOL...Beautiful Man, beautiful!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppMQ2Jvekfg
No wonder my mailman looks so pissed off lately.
The slogan "Buy War Bonds" is being replaced with "Federal Employees: Please Max Out Your 401K"
yeah let me get right on that.
Wait for them to say "goverment take over of privet 401ks for your own good"
That is more than Charlie Sheen spends on Hooker's and coke in the same amount of time. Maybe Giethner can take over Sheen's gig on two and half men?
Lets focus on saving the U.S of A . (sarc on
Thank God the funds were only disinvested and not stolen.
LOL
It is almost comical that this game is built into the documentation of the pensions. An IOU of an IOU doesn't count as against the debt ceiling. What a joke.
On the other hand Timmay must be the right guy for the job. He probably does this on turbotax so he can practice for when he is working as a Goldman partner in a couple of years and needs to 'forget' a few hundred k of income.
Coming to a 401k near you.
debt ceiling gets raised with window dressing cuts, , pension shortfall gets paid back, debt to gdp jumps, and everyone begins to focus on nit-wit-mitt romney's great coiffure....nothing new to report here.....
Actually you are 100% wrong. Since the debt ceiling negotiation now becomes one of "if you (Republian/Democrats/whoever) don't raise the debt ceiling, government workers lose even the pensions they had previously accrued", you would be surprised just how greater the push for the hike will be from people who previously considered themselves fiscally conservative.
Please tell us where else you have seen a discussion of this dynamic?
+1 for TD
Although:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread712039/pg1
Well, the DID base the article on a Zero Hedge post.
Of course ... ZH is infectious!
Ass kisser.
And Mish calls ZH an aggregator site. I say an agitator site :)
for those newer GOPish members whose mandate is supposed to be defined as less Govt this particular threat will only embolden them more. They might just see how close they are to actually making Govt smaller. Sells well to the consituents.
I didn't read your post because I couldn't take my eyes of your avatar.
I can't. In retrospect. I have owned and been disrespectful of everything! I'm a complete loser. (Typical words from a loser) Partys are redundant!
Step up and use some common sense! A party is a party, Not a Partie! Get it?
Link ag & housing subsidies to it and all that "end the raping of America by public workers at all costs" crap will end in a nanosecond
How bout dollar-for-dollar? Dollar from subsidies, dollar from public workers.
Hell I'll go 2-1 even.
It's all gonna get hammered regardless in the end. Cut 40% from every outlay and there is your starting point. That's AFTER all the retirement accounts have been emptied, public & private. There simply is too much work to be done to consider everyone NOT participating. Fully. Break time is almost over folks.
its just another subplot in the soap opera that ends the same way regardless of what is discussed. the debt ceiling hike has been a done deal from the beginning. none of these spendthrifts want to see the ceiling intact. and there are no true fiscal conservatives in congress save a handful of people, the rands and rons. the rest blow their horns so they have it recorded on the political dictaphone for playback in nov 2012. my point is overall drama plays out the same--- obama and boehner shoot par, ceiling gets raised, no real cuts, and we move on to the next series--media coverage of sarah and mitt. tyler, you cant really believe otherwise.
So as long as the debt ceiling can't be broken they will take money out of the ret fund and put securities, i.e. IOUs in, and then, after the ceiling is raised, immediately take a huge chunk of new debt-money and redeem the IOUs.
So the debt will pop by the accumulation of n months of deficit.
A-ha !
It's called intra-governmental bonds, afaik.
yes, non-negotiable IOUs. Very clever when you think about it.
It is my position the funds never left the building, they fall under the Comptroller of Currency. Blackrock does basic accounting as far as I can tell.
The only way I can see for this to work is to use debt issuance to add the "company match" to the 401k as there can be no "organic growth" in the funds because they are non-marketable. They trade on no exchange or market, that is, there is no one to sell these funds to.
Anyone want to weigh in here?...that's what I think is/has been going on.
The FED is confiscating interest payments due to savings accounts and money market funds and Treasury is seizing government pension funds. Do we need any louder bell to be rung that IRA / 401Ks are next on the hit list? Some pension funds should be in gold in your possession, out of the system and in safe hands.
Don't those government employees who took out loans and withdrew funds from their retirement accounts to "start a business" look smart now?
Maybe ZH fans should withdraw retirement money to start a gold trading business?
The plan to require retirement accounts to have only annuities has not gone away.
Next Turbo Timmy will be down at the pawn shop hocking the white house silverware. lulz
Buzz ( never forget) ? Ya know I love you. These Fiscal meet heads are are scared!
Have you Americans not got access to lamp posts and lengths of rope?
roger that...
Of course we do...we're just biding our time for a little longer, that's all.
Not going to happen. Not in the good old USA. We do love to bitch a lot however.
America is a slow pot to boil.
Once it does, however, watch out.
When we get to fighting, we don't do it half-assed.
Just look at the death toll for our Civil War, and for Gettysburg alone.
Then think of WWII, and that it took the attack on Pearl Harbor to get us in the war.
It will take a lot to get people off their couches but once they do the S will really HTF.
Right around the time the FEMA camps are full-up and the rest are put on house arrest and the FDA bans with force gardening and trading food and all bullets and PMs are confiscated.
And/or the Stocks will really Highly and Frequently Trade.
NRA/GOA: "out of my cold, dead hands....". Any ZOG attempt to confiscate citizen weapons will trigger state secessions and civil war. You "economic minds" have no idea what you are dealing with here.
dull guillotines at the ready...
Sharpen them; let there not be a chance..
What? A crushed larynx and pulverized vertebrae will kill also!
On another note. Anyone see this news? Man files foreclosure against the bank.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110606/us_time/httpmoneylandtimecom20110606homeownerforeclosesonbankofamericayesyouheardthatrightxidrssfullnationyahoo
Iceland's ex-prime minister Geir Hardo standing trial for his involvement and partial responsibility for Iceland's financial crisis in 2008.
British investors will remember it well:
Kaupthing banken and "Icesave".
In order for Britons to not forget about Iceland, they make one of their volcanoes burp every once a year at anniversary day.
Ash-for-cash.
The whole bunch of you have it wrong. They'll string out paying the fund back until it becomes a crisis and then the fascists will start screaming about not wanting to be taxed to pay for the government worker's entitlement. How dare these lazy leeches who work for the government expect the rest of us to pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement when we don't have a retirement plan ourselves. It won't ever get paid back. Those in the plan can kiss their retirement goodbye.
Babies(boomers) drown in bathtubs. All anti New Deal all the time.
Slight OT question to the ZH collective...
I went to my local Coin guy today with the intention of picking up a few additional Eagles and Maples for my stash. However, he is currently backed up quite a few weeks. I've never purchased online before, and was hoping to get a few suggestions as to reputable online dealers. Is Kitco the ZH recommendation or ?
Also I normally dollar cost average my purchases and don't care too much about small fluxuations. However, instinctually I see silver going to the mid-twenties before a decent pop upwards which could save me a few FRNs here or there. Silly and focus on dollar cost averaging or wait a few weeks?
Thanks much.
Don't sell em yet! Yen.
Naah. Not sell YC. Buy ;)
yes. Kitco is very well respected and reliable. I can provide reciepts.
Thanks YC.
Golddealer.com has the best spreads for purchases and sales. Free shipping and insurance for orders over 2000 dollars.
I bought and sold to those guys for maybe 13 years now. Never once had a problem. It is california numismatics near LA.
TCT you are tradeing against the grain! Just a hint.
Awesome. I'll check 'em out. Thanks.
Best wishes, I hope you can read charts and Macro economic ideas.
Tulving is best I've dealt with, only downside is larger order size. CNI is great out of California. APMEX is alright, like the interface but usually higher premiums and pay for delivery. Bought with them all and had good experiences.
Onlygold.com out of Phoenix. Great prices on silver/gold bars and coin, all kinds. Run interesting specials all the time. Can often get junk silver at spot and they always pay shipping and insurance included in the price. Good luck.
In 2008 I cleaned out my G-fund Thrift Saving Plan and purchased Gold and Silver. Yes; I took the tax penalty doing that. I purchased Silver @ $12 and Gold @ $700. Everyone told me I was crazy. Now they tell me I'm crazy like a Fox.....
Ditto
$7 and $400 (and sold my house in 2004-5)
Everyone told me I was crazy
A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking about some real money. But as long as Timmy says it OK, I guess it's OK.
The tea party republicans will allow a rise in deficits, but I bet they send a non negotiable bill to the senate that includes a ten percent cut in government spending.
Since this wont come from defense or non discretionary it will be huge. Whole departments and bureaucracies will disappear! I am ecstatic!
It will be a good start, but entitlements and defense must be severely cut too, eventually.
entitlements and defense must be severely cut too, eventually.
It'll never happen.
I am sure the fed will backload that amount with the money those euro banks pay us back from the crash. Whaaaaaa
My only question is this: Will the ponzi scheme end in my lifetime or after?
If it's during, i'll quit my job right now.
If it's after, i'll just keep working and enjoying life.
-kid who took test 1 of cfa on sat and probably failed, and hates working on wall street
The Ponzi is ending right now. It is in the process of collapsing. The government is robbing its employee pension funds right now, the equivalent of an alcoholic robbing the kids' piggy bank because his credit cards are maxed out and he needs a drink NOW.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/jun/06/us-hackers-fbi-informer
anonymouse is heavily infiltrated. can't beat em join em.......
so much for the FED attacks etc.......somebody is going to jail.....