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A Question Of Scale: A Destroyed Nuclear Reactor And A Concrete Pump
For all those who need a refresher of the scale issues at Fukushima, below we present a picture showing the scale comparison of a concrete pump and a destroyed nuclear reactor (in this case #4). A picture, in this case, is worth 1,000x scaling.
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Near consensus that ECB is going to hike
http://dawnwires.com/investment-news/near-consensus-that-ecb-will-hike-rates-in-april-and-may-2011/
Now i might not be a mensa canidate...so lets just hypothesize the idea of a very large concrete structure. Lets say, for auguement sake, an energy plant with 4 nuc. reactors, ya know the kind built with structural integerity intended to last 100yrs, i'm guessing here. gets hit by an earthquake. A very large earthquake, large enough to crack assumed highly reinforced, 7 foot thick, 100yr concrete structure.
What is the likely outcome of an even larger "reinforced concrete structure", sitting on a highly active fault-line going to be.
There are always alternatives to stupidity...for example SILENCE.
As a follow on to a reader comment from one of yesterday's posts...
What do you all think about the idea of literally demoloishing the entire facility, loading the debris on to one or two massive cargo ships and sinking them in the Mariana Trench? Per Wikipedia "The Mariana Trench is the deepest part of the world's oceans, and the lowest elevation of the surface of the Earth's crust. It is currently estimated to be up to 10,971 m (35,994 ft) deep.".
Its a good idea if your willing to spend the time and money to move a mountain of concrete and steel, contain the dust and transport it.
Its not a solution if you just want to kick the can and pretend everything is ok.
Then again, dumping a bunch of toxic waste into the ocean might not be the smartest thing to do.
that is where the aliens are! didn't you watch "The Abyss?"
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Library/Effects/UndergroundEffects.html
subsidence > expulsion : bury it
The site is built on bedrock.
The subsidence data comes from explosions in looser stone, whci absorbs more of the blast.
This site risks becoming a radioactive open sore on Japanese soil as is. No need to magnify the effect with another nuclear device.
"... For a 1 kt explosion in alluvium the depth is about 50 m (160 ft), in hard rock it is 43 m (140 ft)."
-that's 1969 research.
Danger can be mitigated never eliminated.
1280'x320'@104 kt in alluvial
"Sedan was one of the most spectacular nuclear test ever fired in the continental U.S. It was an LRL test conducted under the auspices of the Plowshare program, which was an attempt to develop non-military uses for nuclear explosives. The purpose of Sedan was to investigate the potential of "clean" thermonuclear devices for producing large craters cheaply (for canal or harbor construction for example).
Up to a point, the more deeply buried an explosive charge is, the larger the crater it will make. Beyond this point much of the material is thrown with insufficient force to clear the crater and falls back in, reducing the final size. At the optimal crater depth though quite a lot of material actually ends up back in the crater bottom. This is an advantage for a Plowshare-type crater experiment since much of the radioactivity gets returned to the crater and buried. The radiation release (as measured in terms of I-131, the most important from human health risks) was 880,000 curies, about equivalent to a 3-4 kt atmospheric fission test.
Sedan was detonated at what was estimated to be the optimal crater depth in 'alluvial' soil. 12 million tons of soil and rock were lifted into the air, 8 million tons of it falling outside the crater. The final crater was 1280 feet wide and 320 feet deep. The force of the detonation released seismic energy equivalent to an earthquake magnitude of 4.75 on the Richter Scale.
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Storax.html#Sedan
I wonder what would happen if such a crater (at the reactor site) were to quickly fill in with sea water? <sarcasm>
"Beyond this point much of the material is thrown with insufficient force to clear the crater and falls back in, reducing the final size." (above)
a)Gravity rains-down infill before the water breach.
b)Surface remix decreases chances of criticality.
c)Seawall mitigation along the ocean-side rim.
Please pick d-day winds accordingly - and remove as much spent fuel beforehand to Mutsu.
Fault-lines????
...tis only a Swift Modest Proposal!
Yep, came to me too. I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen because it sounds like it could work. Although, not knowing the science fully makes it difficult to ascertain.
Setting off an underground nuclear device right on top of an earthquake fault line sounds good on paper...
Umm a nuclear explosion on a fault line? U trying to sink Japan?
(above only to show case)
make your hole(S)inland/adjacent - as 'dynamite' doesn't always blow down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpdGnkIA60M&feature=related
(1:50)
WTF?
They're trying a junk shot?
Really? That's where we are in this story? Is BP working on this thing?
Let's just spray it all down with some Core Exit and hope that does the trick, or at least hides the radiation until people forget about the whole thing.
At 500 tons/day, it is a bit of a stretch to call the outflow a seepage, as NHK and Kyodo are doing.
Meanwhile, what is the purpose of plugging this leak? Does that not just move the radioactive water elsewhere, where it might be much more difficult to remove?
Why not just pump it out to a holding tank, such as the recently arrived fresh water barge. That would cut the emissions and buy some time to fix the underlying problem.
In general, it still seeems that there is an affinity between Fukushima aand this site. Here the name is Zero Hedge, there the status is Zero Leadership.
Not good for Japan.
It's the top-hat sarcophagus first, then the junk shot.
top hat, junk shot, move the cameras away for a day or so to avoid a category 1 hurricane, then it's magically FIXED!
The "pit" is an access chamber slightly larger than (6' x 6' x 12') but similar to a sewer manhole, at the bottom of which are two utility trenches -- electrical and condenser water -- at the seawater pumphouse of #2 reactor. Liquid contaminants are pouring in and leaking into the ocean. The doofus TEPCO workers tried to plug the leak by pouring concrete and other materials upstream 20 meters from the manhole. There is an access cover right above the chamber and no reason not to fill the damn thing with approx 15 yds of concrete, except that no one wants to go near it at +1000mSv.
I think some ZH'ers might see my point on this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqTLolHFSCc
You know why the radiation reading is only 1sv/hr? Because that's the maximum reading of the geiger counter used.
This is getting way beyond pathetic.
I feel incredibly sorry for the people of Japan and the people of the world for that matter. The devastation that will be procured by this disaster will be permanent and the consequences dire for many lifetimes.
The words of Oppenheimer are so incredibly resounding right now it chills the marrow of my existence. Particularly because he was arguably one of the most intelligent human beings to have ever existed.
Oppenheimer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8H7Jibx-c0
A very compelling 1 1/2 hour documentary for those wishing some entertainment before farceures open:
"The Day After Trinity"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgM0GOvXLDE
I agree with you 100%. However, all of these low key international meetings have an agenda. I can tell you personally, the sick fucks are @##$%**&&^^%$.
A guy like this may increase his exposure/demand.
http://www.aetv.com/dog-the-bounty-hunter/
I still have trouble wrapping my mind around how smart he was. I mean a gift like that is truly a gift from god.
In addition the level of composure in which he expressed himself was equally astounding.
Simply amazing...a freak of nature to say the least.
He and his network need to conquer individuals above the law. Plenty of US Marsh's, Sheriffs, and Bounty Hunters understand the system. The payoff is higher rather than chasing a underemployed individual.
"...gift from god...freak of nature..."
Make up your mind, Bob! Cynics like me might shrug, "meh, same thing."
For philosophical discussions you will need to pay for the drinks.
You don't they just piss on it?
When we go camping and want to turn out the campfire, we just piss on it.
REPORTER: "I guess this would be like pissing on a wild fire, or into a volcano."
TEPCO Rep: "It could work"
Throw in something soft that will get sucked against the hole - like a number of Goldman Sachs bankers - then pour concrete over them. Don't worry about them decomposing. They will be cooked like a hard boiled egg by the radiation and sterilized at the same time.
Re crack...how do you say "hydraulic cement" in Japanese?
I think you mean "Where's the glass pipe?" In Japanese it would be something like "Fukushima"
Everyone knew this is going to kill Japan and half the world along with it. Playing print money and giveing it to friends only works as long as you have an economy supporting you.
Loseing just Japan would have been bad enough. Now that the US will have large areas that people will be unwilling to move to and live in. With possible long term effects to food and production.
Who will buy the food or products knowing they may cause cancer and can't be recycled or landfilled. What do you do with all this waste?
Its a mad max world after all.
No law, lots of radiation, and justifiable use of force.
I need to get a dog, a cool jacket, and a fast car.
Maybe just the dog.
Perhaps this,along with the dozen other Black Swans attacking us,is the beginning of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Maybe TIME NO MORE is close at hand............
Too many disasters of Historical proportions hitting the entire world at once.
No man knows the day or hour, but those that are HIS will recognize the signs.
Plus, we are not even halfway thru the economic and shortage of food yet.
What will this leak do to our Oceans?,there is ZERO way to confirm it will be plugged at all points.
Even if they do get it "Under Control".
I don't think I will ever understand the "end of days" fetishists. You want doomsday to happen so badly that you exaggerate every single problem until it becomes some kind of world-ending event, then you're completely frustrated and confused when the world doesn't end. Look, go buy a .38 special and blow your brains out. Your world will end and while in the act, you can bullshit yourself however you want that it's the entire universe ending and not just you.
I think the only thing that could make this worse would be doing it underwater. Other than that, I can't think of a more crappy job. Maybe they should call Mike Roe on Dirty Jobs.
Here's an idea. Let's give all the lifers in American prisons a lottery ticket. They can volunteer for one year of duty cleaning up fuckyoushitty, evacuating old folks, transporting supplies, etc. If they survive, they receive a get out of jail free card, and they can start life over in some godforsaken backwater, like Queens;)
Here's a better idea, why dont we get the entire useless SEC, the Justice Department, the FDIC, the Federal Reserve and every corporate officer who accepted TARP money and use them as involuntary volunteers for the clean up operation.
A final chance to redeem themselves by acting for the common good, something many of them should have been doing for decades.
The big question is whether or not this will matter to stocks or not....
Still bottom-fishing for the skulls of infants, eh RoboTroll?
Fuck, you are truly pathetic. An utterly amoral and venal sociopath. Just like your buddy Leo Quislingasskiss.
I'm proud to be the first to junk you here --- but I will be far from the last.
Thank you, Larry Kudlow. Now crawl back into your hole.
Maybe we should throw some mustard seeds on him --- I hear that bullshit is a great fertilizer.
TANKAN and Tankin' ?
Kudlow, is that you? You say this stuff on purpose knowing you will rile folks up. That is called trolling.
Indeed. In fact, it is egregious enough that perhaps it should be taken up directly with Tyler --- although it is also possible that such behavior from certain, officially-sanctioned trolls such as RobotTrader and Leo is not only tolerated but actually encouraged (if not outright purposefully pursued) to increase the level of animosity and hence participation in this forum, and more importantly, hits to this site as a way to generate revenue via the advertisers here.
Robo the next time I have coffee with your Mom I am going to suggest she have you evaluated by a psychologist, the possibility exist that you maybe a psychopath.
"The big question is whether or not this will matter to stocks or not...."
Aside from Robo's history. This is a valid point.
No........ it's not.
Rocky... some of us actually trade for a living...
Exactly. There you have it.
Me fill you rong time!
my house in woody creek was poured concrete. lots of blow outs i remember. steel rebar? had to be put in place inside the foam form blocks. it was intense. i lived in a concrete poured house for 30 years.
Biker chick, you lived at the Doc's compound?
The wind on Sunday afternoon and evening was blowing from the reactor in the direction of Tokyo and is forecast to again all day Monday, I think with rain too. Does anybody know what the radiation counts are now in Tokyo? I don't know how long the wind will have to be traveling in that direction to start to make an impact.
Yes, Tokyo live geisdha counter I picked up yesterday on zerohedge:
http://www.mmnews.de/index.php/etc/7487-geigerzaehler-tokio-live-geiger-counter
If that one is down, try this one, fromChiba
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/%E6%94%BE%E5%B0%84%E7%B7%9A%E3%83%AC%E3%83...
TEPCO can't even manage a much smaller "concrete job"..More info on the tragi-comical attempt to fill the "crack" in the pit with polymer, sawdust, newspaper..
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/04/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-more-on.html
"Lets throw a bunch of stuff in there and hope it plugs the leak."
Did Tepco consult with BP on how to manage disasters? This sounds like the Junk-Shot and Top-Kill saga redux complete with dis-info campaign.
They're plugging it with a diaper.
Maybe the one the Chairman was wearing.
I'm not totally stupid or anything, but where is the concrete pump in the picture??? Is it the little truck thingie in the lower right corner???
Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter
and we thought the video of putting Nuclear Boy in a diaper was satire
Just like we used to think 1984 was a novel and not an instruction manual...
And Atlas Shrugged was fiction also.
Atlas shrugged and said, she's just like a woman to me when Ayn Rand's emotions short-circuited her intellect and she stole another woman's husband. So much for lecturing people about always being perfect and doing the right thing.
step 1. design disposable equipment for hazardous nuc clean-up, with intention of said materials being capable of being disposed of/recycled into the construction the entombment
step 2. threaten chinese with mass populace invasion(tell truth to population), if they don't create a endless amount of boric/boron impregnated bottle rockets, must contain high amounts of loose packed paper for maximum absorbency, and capable of being shot off...from a good distance, lets say...your shore's and reaching these clouds, aswell vicinity of nuc plants, ...yes all of them.
step 3 contact BP, you'll need an oil slick over the ocean to capture radio-active paper from bottle rockets. Corexit, Corexit, Corexit...come on folks, you know this routine.
step 4 check "Tarp funds availability status" declare the new Tepco/GE/BP conglomerate a bank holding company
step 4 contract every pipe company in world to surround all complexes in pipe..including thermal draft rises...to capture as much escaping heat as possible...remember the world still has an energy shortage...and why waste a good crisis.
step 5 offer free housing, heat, water, food any and all living wants to any global inhabitant of child bearing age, as the cost has now been cover by good friend ben
step 6 sue USA for stealing airborne radicals as japan will want these back as they are ...proprietary energy technology, and offsite testing/findings is/are not permitted...
step 7 sue monsanto for stolen GM seeds
The parasites have the lights turned off. The Ponzi welcomes new business revenue streams.
Randy Paar Discusses Insurance Law After Japan Quake: BLAW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUzWEd_gmi0
Step 1: Horrific nuclear accident
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit!
What good is that pump going to do? These guys are screwed. There just is no way that works.
All what you see the next 6-8 months will be an interim solution. To secure the reactors they need custom-made containers. This will take years. Special circles know that and the wheels are already moving. Medical tanks are moving westwards already. Even FEMA is taking precautions. US bases on Japan are evacuated to Seattle. They are preparing for the worst. Don't believe the happy talk of politicians. They are clueless. Watch the military.
Apart from the carrier George Washington getting moved out of Yokosuka while still undergoing refit on Mar 21, I have seen no news regarding any other redeployments by the US military.
There are many dependents housed in Japan, so it would be surprising if there was no leak of any large scale evacuation plans.
That said, there is still a real risk that this situation will get materially worse. It is clearly not under control and the repair actions taken in some instances seem illogical.
If there is a drain of superpolluted radioactive water into the ocean, what is the logic in plugging the drain? Is it better to have this liquid back up into the site?
Of course, that would make it entirely impossible to work in the plant, which may be the most face saving way to throw in the towel on the fixup effort.
Seen that TEPCO reportedly wanted to do this as of day 3, but was told to continue by the government, maybe that is not too farfetched.
I'm pretty sure concrete on this scale won't work at the moment. When concrete hardens over time, it releases a huge amont of energy via heat, which could infact make the situation worse.If fast setting concrete is used it's even worse. To say they're pouring water on it because they fear what would happen if the used rods get too hot, pouring concrete is equivalent to putting them in a very very hot blanket,with no way of effectively dissapating the heat
(Possible criticality incident, which would be cataclysmic) Without effective cooling, the water in the concrete would boil off, rendering it useless. Concrete needs water to harden. It would take years to do, just because of the pure volume of concrete required.
They have no idea what to do, they're clutching at straws. They can't use robots either to do the tasks as of the radiation. The radiation is in the form of Alpha (Helium nuclei), beta (Electrons) and gamma (High energy Electromagnetic waves). This ionizing radiation ionized parts of the electronics and makes them unusable.-
Undergrad Civil Engineer @Imperial College
In my opinion they will continue to pour water over the reactors for months if not years, which will have horrible consequences for the groundwater and wildlife. 1000 litres pumped in = 1000 litres of radioactive water out. We've not seen anything yet. This will go on for years
Nothing will work.
We realize that we are attempting to tame energy that powers the universe right?
The Fukushima incident is incredible.
Millions of people are going to die because of this and billions of people will be affected in one way or another
lol
Nothing will work.
Aw, cheer up. Just need the US Navy, a fleet of bulldozers, and a couple teensy weensy airstrikes.
http://oilgeology.blogspot.com/2011/03/broken-piping-andor-vessel-rupture-has.html
Criticality is a function of mass density, not heat.
I'm not sure about your "electronics" statement, but every thing else is true.
This is by far the worst nuclear disaster for so many reasons.
I'm pro-nuke, but I admit that we need to re-examine our spent fuel storage issues and contingency plans for worst-case events.
If it is too late to put sand-boron and concrete into the reactor and the water with boron is not stopping the reaction. So Japan is doomed.
I never thought I would actually ever get to see the real Godzilla, but with all that crap pumping into the ocean, my dream may come true yet. Something is going to mutate for sure.
All the folks with much stronger opinions than knowledge bases crying foul on the Nip's emergency methods strike me as soooo funny. Opinions really are like assholes... Always bet on failure, eh...
Holy shit - 3!!! WHOLE bags of shredded newspaper!!!!! If that don't fix it nothing will....
What happens when they need to change the oil on that concrete pump? This is so stop-gap it is beyond belief.
What about precast concrete sections? Manufacture them like Lego blocks outside the contaminated zone and bring in to the site. Just start stacking them around the whole place and then fill it up with sand and boron and cap with concrete?
How about creating a nice black hole in the middle of the complex?
Dump a bunch of hair in there always clogs up my pipes!
how about an air filled bladder (not filled) with a camera,some weights, and a rope let thru the pipe. Let the current move it to the crack fill it with air, rinse and repeat until most of the crack is covered then dump the mulch in? Like laproscopic surgery or one of those procedures to expand arteries?
when you describe it that way, I can't decide whether you're talking about using Jim Cramer or Barry Kudlow :)
The logic of this effort escapes me.
Why would anyone want to seal in superradioactive water into a site one plans to clean up?