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Radiation In Ibaraki Rises To 300 Times Normal As Fukushima Evacuated, DOCOMO To Limit Up To 80% Of Voice Calls In Chiba, Ibaraki, 50% In Tokyo

Tyler Durden's picture





 

A choppy futures session has seen some modest profit-taking in line with Nikkei trading, following news that all TEPKO personnel around Fukushima are to be evacuated due to abnormally high radiation levels. Keep an eye on the Japanese market for an indication of where we open tomorrow.A somewhat bigger problem is that according to Bloomberg, which has now caught up to our radiation reporting by prefecture, the radiation in Ibaraki has reached 15,800 nanosieverts/hour at 11:40 am, which is 300 times normal. The spin: this is one third the amount of radiation in a chest X-ray. What is not mentioned is that an X-ray is exposure measured in one instant, whereas in this case the irradiation goes on for hour, after hour, after hour. And some other unpleasant news: NTT DOCOMO has announced it will limit up to 80% of voice calls in neighboring Chiba and Ibaraki prefectures, and up to 50% in Tokyo. Whether this is to conserves some mystical telephonic energy or to prevent the spread of panic is unclear. As this latest news is digested watch for the drift.

This is how futures looked like at last check:

And here is a handy summary of the Japanese crisis so far from Reuters:

http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/03/JP_TLL0311_CT.gif

 

 


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Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:05 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

NTT DOCOMO has announced it will limit up to 80% of voice calls in neighboring Chiba and Ibaraki prefectures, and up to 50% in Tokyo.

 

Getting stranger by the hour.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:10 | Link to Comment Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

I guess they haven't heard of Twitter.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:19 | Link to Comment Broken_Trades
Broken_Trades's picture

Watching a live feed on another forum from someone in Tokyo...  They have interweb and skype if phone fails.

http://www.justin.tv/aquaintokyo?utm_campaign=post_live&utm_source=live&...

Also - TD:  Watched the accompanying video and the reporter says that the withdraw of personnel was only termporary due to a surge in radiation levels, and that they are now back continuing work.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Article/201009115953135

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:00 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

Fun x-ray facts;

 S Time
The third control of the x-ray tube which is used for medical imaging is the exposure timer. This is usually denoted as an "S" (exposure time in seconds) and is combined with the mA control. The combined function is usually referred to as mAs or milliampere seconds so, if you wanted to give an exposure using 10 milliampere seconds you could use a 10 mA current with a 1.0 second exposure or a 20 mA current for a 0.5 second exposure or any combination of the two which would result in the number 10. Both of these factors and their combination affect the film in a linear way. That is, if you want to double film blackness you could just double the mAs.

http://www.e-radiography.net/radtech/e/exposurefactors.htm

If you had 1 chest X-ray for every second of the day;

3,600sec/hr

86,400sec/day

86,400 / 3 = 28,800 chest x-rays per day.

Not good.

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:25 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture
Japan Just Wasted $78 Billion On 'Fruitless' Projects To Solve Global Warming

"Japan spent an impressive $78 billion on global warming research in the past six years. However, none of 214 projects produced effective results, according to an official report featured in Japan Times.

This "fruitless" spending is under scrutiny as the government suffers under a heavy debt burden.

Here's an example of a failed project:

The Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries Ministry spent about ¥1.6 billion on a project to produce livestock feedstuff from unsold boxed lunches from convenience stores. The project was abandoned after its management firm collapsed, the report says."

http://www.businessinsider.com/japan-global-warming-2011-2

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:54 | Link to Comment uhb
uhb's picture

+1 Michael.

At the reactor, we have up to 1 Sievert per hour...

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 06:13 | Link to Comment velobabe
velobabe's picture

milliampere seconds so, how in the heck do they come up with these types of measurements? i have had more then enough X -rays through out my life. damn, just to validate broken bones. technology kinda sucks. in the old days you would just die. now they want you to suffer heating up, before you die.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 06:43 | Link to Comment Freewheelin Franklin
Freewheelin Franklin's picture

 MilliAmpere sec (mAs) is a measurement of "charge" associated with the electrical charge of an electron and is measured in coulombs (C). 1 coulomb is equal to the electrical charge of 6.24 x 10 to the 18th power electrons. It has nothing to do with E-M radiation. It is just the power supply that powers the lamp which produces X-rays. A method known as "crystal diffraction" separates the X-rays from the other E-M frequencies produced by the lamp. IIRC.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:59 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

Radiation may kill mobile and ratio equipment. This may just happen itself.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:05 | Link to Comment AnonymousAnarchist
Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:33 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

No-Fly zone over the reactor???

Colonel Muammar has been cornered in the Fukushima complex?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:57 | Link to Comment Hedge Jobs
Hedge Jobs's picture

 

This is going from bad to worse. containment vessel may have been breached by the sounds of things:

"The containment vessel of the quake-hit No. 3 reactor of the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant may have been damaged, Japan's top government spokesman said Wednesday, indicating that radioactive steam may be spreading outside."

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110316x2.html

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:21 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

Forget it. 


U.S. military blocks websites to help Japan recovery efforts

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/15/us.military.websites/index.html

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:22 | Link to Comment CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

wtf

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:31 | Link to Comment Selah
Selah's picture

 

Youtube works fine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_GnG1wO38

Konichiwa Bitches!

 

(too soon?)

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:32 | Link to Comment infiniti
infiniti's picture

un-fucking-believable.

 

and ES is flat.

 

they can block your interwebz, they can print your 401k statement.

 

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:33 | Link to Comment CD
CD's picture

The block is for the .mil domain, e.g. for US servicemembers, not (yet) the wider population.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:34 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Well, I hope the SEC gets their HD porn surfing privileges revoked, because that shit eats a ton of bandwidth.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:32 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

+1000

:)

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:40 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

do you really drink their Kool-aid? do you really think US military has to rely on some fucking Japanese routers?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:12 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

If I had a dime for every irrational excuse our government comes up with to justify their actions...

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:43 | Link to Comment WTFisThat
WTFisThat's picture

wow dudes thats some serious shit going around... keep the modems around if you have a analog line, nothing changed from the good old USSR days

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:33 | Link to Comment pamriallc
pamriallc's picture

http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/risk.htm

 

Apparently 300X normal isn't fatal, but also thankfully, radiation does dissipate rather quickly.  An 8000 NIKKEI is bargain basement shopping for someone who keeps their money in JPY

Shawn A. Mesaros, Pamria, LLC

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:48 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Shawn,

I always value your input, and know you're legitimate, but given the scale here (potential reward vs potential risk) of the nuclear effect, I think that's gambling junky advice.

Just my .02

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:52 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Wow. Really? Pitching your investment firm/advice on ZH?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:59 | Link to Comment chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

It's even cheaper for those who keep their morals in the toilet.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 06:26 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

Here is +1000 internets for you

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:55 | Link to Comment IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 "mystical telephonic energy"--love it. That must be it. If you conserve the mystical telephonic energy, then your atomic swimming pool won't let the magic smoke out. It's a Shinto, thing, I suppose.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:56 | Link to Comment Jaw Knee Cash
Jaw Knee Cash's picture

stranger indeed. I cannot get the image of Godzilla out of my mind. He emerges from the sea and causes horrific destruction. This image is keeping me from sleep. Time for a vodka.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 09:07 | Link to Comment Zina
Zina's picture

In my case, because I'm Brazilian, I can't get the images of Kyojuu Tokusou Juspion (known in Brazil as "Jaspion") out of my mind.

In fact, I can't stop remembering the Mega Beasts from the Jaspion show.

Man, I was a kid here in Brazil, when watching Jaspion, and I was always very impressed by the Mega Beasts destroying Tokyo everyday!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:10 | Link to Comment Korg
Korg's picture

No.1 melted down 3 1/2 days ago
No.3 melted down about a day later
No.2 melted down (and even Tepco admitted this one) the next day
No.4 may have melted down yesterday but if not yesterday its melting down today.

Cursory glances at videos will confirm this timeline 

Anyway stop worrying about a few pissant little subcritical meltdowns that are still largely contained by remnant reactor structure WHEN THERE ARE NOW raging spent fuel fires burning dozens of times the amount of radioactive fuel that is present in the reactors - in the open air!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:05 | Link to Comment brxn
brxn's picture

It's not sounding good. 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:52 | Link to Comment I am a Man I am...
I am a Man I am Forty's picture

GE built these nuclear reactors about the same time they built this...

Any questions??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcEWiz2UbHk&feature=related

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:07 | Link to Comment Misean
Misean's picture

" Whether this is to conserves some mystical telephonic energy or to prevent the spread of panic is unclear."

More likely bandwidth.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:50 | Link to Comment Hacksaw
Hacksaw's picture

How in the hell is getting on the internet going to help them solve this? What are they going to do search Bing for the answer? Bwahahah

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:08 | Link to Comment SparkyvonBellagio
SparkyvonBellagio's picture

They probably stated the radiation is no more than a cell phones.

Then they realize what they just let out of the bag. LOL

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:14 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

It just keeps getting worse.

The wheels are coming off.

It's not pessimistic to point to this fact at this point. It's realism.

This has been managed so poorly that it's a literal crime (please don't retort with cries of Monday Morning QBing, because the proof will support the criminal recklessness), and a big part of that crime is the Japanese Government's apparent perceived shame in asking for help sooner, and Tokyo Electric & Power's gross, flaming incompetence.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:22 | Link to Comment CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

It's not pessimistic to point to this fact at this point. It's realism.

 

it is damn near surrealism  

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:56 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

I think super-hyper-realism might be morer fittinger, ne?

ORI

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:08 | Link to Comment chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

I remember everyone saying the same thing about the Gulf of Mexico oil volcano.

I remember the same palpable fear.

I remember the same loathing that things would spiral out of control.

I'd say these are equivalent catastrophes, though this one still ensuing, it may still yet surpass the GoM incident in gravity.

Yes, this is a horrific tragedy, still unfolding.  But this, too, shall pass.

Keep you wits about you.  Panicking does no one any good, least of all yourself.

All we can do is wait and see.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:30 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

Don't forget Egypt and market yet to open back up 

Libya

Tunisia

PIIGS

Bahrain

USA's financial problems

I could go on.

 

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:03 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:00 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

The plates under the US have been stress relieved from already shifted plates in the Pacific. I can see the New Madrid and California faults giving in the near future. Solar, lunar, and geomagnetic processes are more to blame.

I noticed the Sun pulsating in very strange patterns in the past 6 months. Solar wind jumps high then low. Sunspots jump higher then lower over short periods of time. Blasts of coronal mass ejection here and there. That sort of thing.

http://www.spaceweather.com/

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 06:20 | Link to Comment TheGoat
TheGoat's picture

Its called the start of Solar Cycle 24.

http://www.solarham.com/

-.. -..-  -.. . ...- -.- 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 06:38 | Link to Comment velobabe
velobabe's picture

you guys are hyper sensitive. or doomers and gloomers. so what if the earth underneath the US of stupidness, is shaking. we shake. just yesterday afternoon, while basking in the late afternoon warmth, i tried to be still. you can't be still when you are alive. cause you are alive and circulating life. michael, i don't notice these sun palpitations you speak of. it is just always changing. nothing stays the same. you two are alarmists.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:11 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

since you like to snipe from the peanut gallery, what would YOU have done differently?  Be specific...

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:53 | Link to Comment Mark McGoldrick
Mark McGoldrick's picture

Everyone is over-thinking this. 

You simply need to remove the energy source, which means they just need to hit the "off" button, or pull the electrical cord, or something. To use an everyday example, vacuum sweepers don't power up on their own - Duh!      

Worst case scenario - and I mean worst - you simply build an asbestos moat and/or fire wall around the reactor. This will prevent the fire from spreading. 

The best solutions are always the simple ones.  

Disclaimer:  I'm not a nuclear physicist (unlike nearly everyone on this forum), but I do have a Ph.D in one particular subject....common sense. 

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:15 | Link to Comment New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Can't pull the plug on this thing because the energy source isn't fission, it's radioactive decay of fission products produced before the tsunami (plus a bit of good old-fashioned fire).  As for the asbestos moat, I doubt even the Japanese would volunteer to build it while this thing is still hot.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:05 | Link to Comment ThreeTrees
ThreeTrees's picture

Christ.  The fuel rods still generate heat from radioactive decay.  Enough to set them on fire if they are exposed to air and enough to melt them completely if they can't keep them cool.  "Hit the fucking off switch."  Yeah, bet they wish that's how it worked.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:28 | Link to Comment LudwigVon
LudwigVon's picture

This has to be a joke.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:36 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Drilled to 10000 feet as fast as humanly possible.
Drop nuke in carefully
detonate.
Entombed the entire crater.
Back off and measure.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:04 | Link to Comment serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

That might have a deleterious effect on the tectonic plates in the region.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:36 | Link to Comment chindit13
chindit13's picture

One department in the Japanese Government did a study a decade or so ago estimating the consequences of an 8.5 quake near Tokyo.  Their analysis, among other things, stated that the landfill part of Tokyo Harbor (Odaiba, etc.) would "liquify".  They also anticipated major problems with the nuclear reactors.  They were Friday Morning Quarterbacking.  They made recommendations.  None was implemented.

I am trying to find the report.  I suspect someone will post it within a day or two.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:00 | Link to Comment chinaguy
chinaguy's picture

"None was implemented"

Same thing happened in New Orleans - 15 years before Katrina struck - two separate studies recommend billions be spent to shore up the levy system in case they got hit by a cat. 5 hurricane...of course, "none were implemented" and the city was flooded.

Same thing WILL happen when the San Fransisco Bay Area gets it's long overdue massive quake - NO politician will vote - themselves out of a job - by voting to spend billions of dollars on projects that have no public visibility.

You folks living on fault need to be 100% self supportive for at least 10 days.

The Loma Prieta was just a 6.9 and you are due for one 200X more powerful - you will not be able to ignore through that one.

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 08:28 | Link to Comment Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Hey Chindit13, it did partially liquefy on March 11, 20011, check it out, amazing footage.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neB4JLtX6tM

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 09:54 | Link to Comment chindit13
chindit13's picture

I saw that.  Incredible.  Spooky.  I would have thought I was having somebody else's LSD flashback from the 60's, if I had witnessed it. Given the magnitude of the quake relative to the white paper study, the claim of liquification looks to be spot on.  

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:09 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

From NHK, little more info:

Radiation level briefly rises at Fukushima plant

Japan's top government spokesperson says the radiation level at the quake-hit nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture, north of Tokyo, rose briefly on Wednesday morning.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters on Wednesday the level of radiation near the front gate of the Daiichi plant started to rise around 10:00 AM, but was falling as of 10:54 AM.

Edano said workers at the plant evacuated just after the level rose.

He said what appeared to be white smoke was detected near the Number Three reactor at around 8:30 AM, but it's not clear if there's a link between the smoke and the increased radiation.

Edano said the temporary rise could have been due to radioactive vapor in the smoke.

Edano also revealed that the reading was over 1,000 microsieverts at one time on Tuesday night, and around 600 to 800 microsieverts before it showed a drastic increase.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:44 | Link to Comment onarga74
onarga74's picture

What happened is the Japanese paid a gozillion dollars to a foreign company to have their nuclear capabiltiy installed.  They built the whole complex, gave the Japanese a 15 page handbook, and told em i "If anything goes sideways here and people come and ask you questions just read em the answers in the book".

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:59 | Link to Comment IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 Too bad they picked the wrong "foreign company".

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:11 | Link to Comment greersteven
greersteven's picture

Ruh Roh!!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:10 | Link to Comment gwar5
gwar5's picture

"We're going to need a bigger boat."

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:40 | Link to Comment onarga74
onarga74's picture

My favorite!!  Either a bigger boat or a timely Tsunami 2 to rinse things out.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:57 | Link to Comment SparkyvonBellagio
SparkyvonBellagio's picture

JAPANESE CEO/GOVT Training Handbook=

 

Lie, Lie, Deny, Deny, then when discovered thus dishonoring his family it's Hari Kari/Sepuku aka Suicide.

 

It's a rinse and repeat model for these guys.

It NEVER CHANGES. 

They had Kobe Earthquake to make mistakes and now be more transparent.

Obviously the same model continues; similar to the USA Ponzi and Printing money scheme.

 

It's a World of Cards.

 

Sucks!  I hope they get this under control. Because the whole world is gonna pay.

I believe the winds switch direction Friday/Saturday. That'll really be a huge issue.

 

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:50 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

From Alvin Toffler's "POWERSHIFT":

"...at least thirty times between 1957 and 1985 -more than once a year- the Savannah River nuclear weapons plant near Aiken, South Carolina, experienced what a scientist subsequently termed "reactor incidents of greatest significance." These included widespread leakage of radioactivity and a meltdown of nuclear fuel. But not one of these was reported to local residents or to the public generally. Nor was action taken when the scientist submitted an internal memorandum about these "incidents." The story did not come to light until exposed in a Congressional hearing in 1988.

The plant was operated by E. I. du Pont de Nemours & Company for the U.S. government, and Du Pont was accused of covering up the facts. The company immediately issued a denial, pointing out that it had routinely reported the accidents to the Department of Energy.

At this point, the DoE, as it is known, accepted the blame for keeping the news secret."

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 09:53 | Link to Comment Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

I find the total failure of government agencies to protect the public from predictable & foreknown risks unacceptable.

I expect antisocial behavior from corporations like TEPCO, GE, BP, Goldman Sachs, BOA et al. They are legal machineries designed for exactly one purpose: making money for shareholders. So what if they put millions of people at risk? Cutting corners boosts margins & thus serves the primary goal of the corporate machine.

Government claims to protect the public as its raison d'etre. But as we have seen following 9/11, Katrina, The Banking Collapse, Deepwater Horizon, and now the Fukushima reactor disaster, the governments' primary activities are to protect the antisocial corporations involved & cover up its own responsibility in failing to protect the public. 

So, what is the point of having (& paying through the nose for) a government, if it does not balance the antisocial forces seeking to victimize the public? Why should we pay a government to collaborate with, obfuscate for, and ultimately deliver its citizens into the jaws of criminal enterprises?

If governments cannot do better, we are better off without them. The observed level of systemic failure by the supposed guardians of the people is entirely unacceptable. What's left but actions by the People to enforce accountability. Do-it-yourself justice, I suppose.

It is the 21st century, after all. If We are to survive into the 22nd, things must change.

Let us not be weak, it is our livelihoods at stake.

Beef

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:15 | Link to Comment CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

 

BREAKING! Workers Abandon Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant Due To Radiation Levels http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc-SnfpHzAo&feature=feedlik

 

Pray for the Fukushima 50!

http://aucanary.blogspot.com/

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:36 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

Pete, according to Reuters, they were ordered to evacuate when crap-levels got to high...then later, ordered back in when they fell. Sounds like back in the day at the Nevada Test Site when they sent us onto the melt ground over a recent underground test to take samples, then ordered us back because a perimeter instrument array was reading high levels, then sent us back because they figured it was recording too high levels because they attracted little sticky radio-fleas...at that point we rebelled and figured nobody knew what kind of shit was coming down over the melt zone. They sent a sensor tank over the thing and found out the radiation levels where astronomical. Sometimes the people in the know, just don't fucking know. My philosophy is they rarely do.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:58 | Link to Comment Out9922
Out9922's picture

Back in the pile!!!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 08:47 | Link to Comment Cthonic
Cthonic's picture

Aristarchan, thank you for your insight.  Could you expand our understanding of the atmospheric diffusion process for the likely radionuclides being emitted from the ruptured, spent fuel rods?  Aside from Kr-85, a gas at STP, are there other radionuclides that can remain aloft/ enter the jetstream as nanoparticulate due to combustion, or will fallout of non-gaseous particulates be localized (<500km) since there no explosion propelling them into the stratosphere? How many million curie of Kr-85 could we expect if the Japanese turn tail and allow all six spent reactor fuel pools to boil off?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:16 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

I think US aircraft carrier should nuke tne plant to try to dirperse the fuel.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:32 | Link to Comment snakebrain
snakebrain's picture

Well you're a prize-winning fucking idiot, aren't you??

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:33 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

I have physics degree. And I do not work for mass media.

They have to open the reactor to kill the reaction. They cannot make surgery through anus. They have to cut them open somehow.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:38 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

Yep. Kind of hard to kill something that is going on in a containment vessel by dropping buckets of water or flea powder from a helicopter. If pumping water in it does not kill it, nothing will. It will take its natural course.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:49 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

This is right. And you cannot open the can with a Swiss knife.

In Chernobyl, reactor craked open. They had access to the reaction.

In Fukushima, they have 6 sealed containers, no control, no access and no way to open except the nuke I was talking about.

I am sort of sure there is no other way. I am sorry of course.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:10 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

You are very, but unfortunately, correct.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:17 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

he's not even close to correct...reactions have ceased.

They are dealing with decay heat

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:19 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

I have mentioned that several times, that time is on their side...and that is the game they are playing. But, if they are forced to abandon the place, that game becomes very suspect very quick.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:26 | Link to Comment theopco
theopco's picture

All bullshit aside, and in all humility, can you explain to me the difference between reactions and decay heat?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:35 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

The heat decay is the reaction. Heat decay which grows with compounding percent (same as US debt - ha-ha) is a nuclear explosion.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:38 | Link to Comment theopco
theopco's picture

thank you

I think I sort of understand..

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:13 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

 

 

Decay heat cannot generate a nuclear explosion. The quality of fuel in these plants will not support a nuclear explosion. There is the possibilty of an explosion of hydrogen resulting from breakdown of the cladding on the fuel and this would have negative outcomes but these are much less than a full bore nuclear bang.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:44 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

Decay heat is the latent, descending temperature of a core that has ceased reacting by the introduction of control rods...therefore fission stops. But, like an automobile engine that you shut off, you get a spike in soak heat, then it starts cooling off. Water has to be circulated over the rods to cool them to cold shutdown - less than 100C.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:53 | Link to Comment theopco
theopco's picture

So, if you don't cool them down, what happens to the control rods?

I appreciate your patience

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:01 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

The control rods are not relevant at this point as long as they are in place, they were introduced to kill the fission reaction. Now you have to worry about getting the fuel rods cool enough so the Zirconium cladding does not get damaged from latent heat. If the rods get uncovered before they become thermally stable, temperatures can rise.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:07 | Link to Comment theopco
theopco's picture

Is there any reason, assuming you figured out the cooling logistics, that you couldn't build a reactor say, 30-50 meters underground? Wouldn't that solve our worst-case senarios?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:50 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

absolutely...reactions generate heat via fission of uranium or plutonium.  Once split, these atoms (and before fission too), are fission byproducts, many of whom are highly radioactive.

Radiation is merely the emission of He nucleii, electrons, or photons.  As these things bump into other atoms, they cause heat.  So the basic "rest state" of a lump of highly radioactive stuff means it is generating heat as it decays.  This falls off at the half-life of the isotopes

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:00 | Link to Comment theopco
theopco's picture

So in our case, we need to keep the temperature below a certain point, otherwise we reach a temp where other materials go boom spreading uranium/plutonium far and wide? Is that what the issue is here?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:38 | Link to Comment New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Yeah, pretty much.  Without coolant, the decay heat slowly builds up until it causes fires, hydrogen explosions, steam explosions, etc- all of which mobilize the radiation.  The nightmare scenario is fuel melting and collecting in one big critical-mass puddle and going Chernobyl, but these reactors are (supposedly) designed to prevent that.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:06 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

Chernobyl was not a nuclear explosion. It was a slow beginning (the flat beginning of exponenta) of a nuclear explosion which was increased temperature and caused steam explosion which dispersed the fuel preventing cutting the exponential growth of nuclear explosion. The world was very lucky that day. These reactors may play differently. If a critical shape/mass forms and the number fission events start exponentially (first slowly and more, more, compounding percent - remember) growing, we will be lucky if container blows up Chernobyl style. If it holds until the vertical part of the exponent - we will have bang.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:15 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

 

 

 

Where did you get your physics degree?

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:55 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

Not an usual place which makes unemployed PhDs. You can guess where I am from by reading my comments :)

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:30 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

Unfortunately, reaction will never stop. You have to keep it under control. The easiest way to control is to disperse the fuel. Then rods melt down the fuel may form an critical shape/mass and bang.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:42 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

 

 

This situation cannot go bang.

The fuel lacks the neutron density to support runaway fission.

It cannot form a critical mass.

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:40 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

Unfortunately it can. When reactor melts there is a possibility that fuel will create more compact shape than designed. This will immenently cause nuclear explosion. This is very simple. Please drop the funky terms. Fission is very simple concept. Read something very simple about fission, for dummies, kids. You will understand. Meltdown can cause explosion if the resulting shape of the fuel is more compact than designed.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:04 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

 

When reactor melts

Forget this. The concern is with the neuron density of the fissile material. The fuel in a civilian reactor will not support a nuclear explosion. It is impossible.

Play tennis?

To get a game going you need to swing your racket and bang the ball over the net to your opponent. He returns the serve. You get a game going.

 

Now play tennis with a ball the size of a bb. You will swing on the incoming bb but there is a very high probability that the bb will pass through the mesh on your racket. Even if you were lucky enough to make contact with the bb it is highly improbable that the other player will make contact with the bb.

Try this a few times. Get frustrated. It doesn't matter how hard you try it simply will not work.

Replace your racket with a ping pong paddle. That increases your chances of returning the serve but not by much.  You will still miss the incoming bb.

Try playing on a much smaller court and use a paddle the size of a garbage can lid. At this point you may get a game going and your opponent may be able to return your serves.

The bb is a neutron. To start a chain reaction and split another atom the first neutron has to make contact. Even if you get a fission event (one bb now becomes two) you still need to get those bbs to make contact with other bbs. This is tough to achieve.

To make it go bang you need to increase the neutron density - you need to pack your neutrons in so tight that there is a very high chance of one bb hitting another and then the two resultant bbs both hitting two more and then the 4 . . .

You get the idea.

The fuel in a civilian reactor simply will not support a nuclear bang. It is fucking impossible. Civilian reactor fuel lacks the required neutron density to go bang. Take six dumptruck loads, drive them into one another, do whatever you want. No bang. (military reactor fuel is different stuff. 688 fuel will go bang)

You need to pull your head out of your ass and stop terrorizing yourself.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:25 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

Do you know what type of fuel they have in these reactors, Sushi? Please give us neutron density figures for molten fuel.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 06:13 | Link to Comment i-dog
i-dog's picture

Since you apparently already know what they are, why don't you tell us?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 06:31 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

I do not know what exactly they put inside the reactors. This may be not what you think. I have never heard about exact science on molten fuel behavior. I have never heard about totally molten reactor cores in the human history. I think the thing may bang.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:19 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

I am very sad. I tried to explain my firends in Tokyo that they should leave now. I failed. I am trying to explain my firends in Kobe that they should leave now. They do not listen. I am a sad prize-winning clown no one listens to. Fuck it.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:36 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

If everything goes tits-up, it may prove to be a relatively localized event. The whole thing becomes hostage of the weather. And, radioactivity is in many cases widely overstated in its effects. I spent years working at the Nevada Test Site, in nuclear subs and in nuclear plants. I have reached my max many times, and signed a paper allowing me to get more, just so I could stay on the job. I knew people who would go into the core during an outage and lay down and sleep, just to pop their pad, so they would be let go, then they would haul ass to another plant before the NRC got the paperwork done. I have had crapped-up water dump off a tarp under a downcomer pour into my suit and crap me up big time....I was naked under my suit (you learn to do that after losing some clothes), Health Physics washed and scrubbed me down, but could not get rid of a "flea" (a particle) in my hair...the magnetic influence of the Geiger counter makes them jump around, so they had to shave my head. On Johnston Atoll, I spent most of my time in the Plutonium yard working to seperate the shit from coral, a remnant of a early missile explosion back in the day of atmospheric testing, I am in my sixties, and am fine. I have had much more than a "lifetime" dose....but, maybe that makes me kinda blase about it, not sure.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:47 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

 

 

Glad to hear you are OK.

Even if a debris cloud were to reach Tokyo the probable increase in the cancer rate over the "normal" rate would be only 1 in 100. And that is a worse case estimate. More probable is an increase of 1 in 1,000.

Trav777 keeps getting junked but he is more accurate and realistic than 99% of the posters on these Japanese threads.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 07:53 | Link to Comment Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

"Trav777 keeps getting junked but he is more accurate and realistic than 99% of the posters on these Japanese threads."

Agreed. The ZHeepality bias.

When faced with devastating news Team Tyler throws it into overdrive and this excites the ZHeeple. Some of the articles written just serve to titillate with raw facts or common sense observations mostly debunking mainstream media(MSM) dribble.

The ZHeeple post frantically in an attempt to bridge the knowledge gap between what they are told from MSM and .alt media. Some altruistic members with the knowledge spend their uncompensated time attempting to educate and fill in the details surrounding the raw facts and observations.

It would be a shame to chase the knowledgeable members away with insults and attempts at humiliation.

Team Tyler knows this. Some of their articles are a direct results of the information shared by the knowledgeable.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:25 | Link to Comment thegr8whorebabylon
thegr8whorebabylon's picture

holy shit, you write like Isaac Asimov, but are somehow more engaging.  Write a book Aristichan, more on the atoll!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:26 | Link to Comment thegr8whorebabylon
thegr8whorebabylon's picture

May I suggest, "On the Beach, II".

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 09:12 | Link to Comment Cthonic
Cthonic's picture

The effects of a given level of radiation exposure may be nominal for a physiologically mature individual, yet catastrophic to a developing organism.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:41 | Link to Comment Aquiloaster
Aquiloaster's picture

Give yourself a pep-talk and call them back/talk to them again. Tell them this story of people in the second World Trade Center tower: After the first plane crashed into the World Trade Center, the authorities  and building managers said it was under control and that people working in the second World Trade Center tower should keep working. I knew people in the tower that responded to this piece of "truth" quite differently. I know, sadly, one person who stayed. I know three that said to the guards "fuck it, I am leaving." The guards tried to stop them, so one of my acquaintances retorted "Shoot me if you would not do the same thing in my position." The guards did nothing. The latter three survived, the former one did not. Good luck to you and your friends. 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:51 | Link to Comment Aquiloaster
Aquiloaster's picture

If they leave and it proves to be a false alarm, your friends can always chuckle and say that they got carried away and over reacted. If it is not a false alarm, they look quite precient. . . and lack that unhealthy glow. Having said that, Trav and other "voices of reason" here are probably statistically correct. The rate of radiation related illness may only go up 1 in 100. But in a metropolitan area of 35 to 39 million, that is 350,000 cases. Even if it only goes up 1 in 1000, that is still 35,000 cases. Why volunteer to be one of these statistics?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:48 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

This is not a financial meltdown. This is a physical process. The important uncertainty is what shape will the melted fuel form at the bottom of the container. There is not false or true. There is probability.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:00 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

 

 

GMPX:

You asked about fuel.

No Problem. Just happen to have Nuclear Weapons Design for Dummies sitting here right by the throne. On page 462 of volume III it states:

2.1 Fission Weapon Physics

Nuclear fission occurs when the nuclei of certain isotopes of very heavy elements, isotopes of uranium and plutonium for example, capture neutrons. The nuclei of these isotopes are just barely stable and the addition of a small amount of energy to one by an outside neutron will cause it to promptly split into two roughly equal pieces, with the release of a great deal of energy (180 MeV of immediately available energy) and several new neutrons (an average of 2.52 for U-235, and 2.95 for Pu-239). If on average one neutron from each fission is captured and successfully produces fission then a self-sustaining chain reaction is produced. If on average *more* than one neutron from each fission triggers another fission, then the number of neutrons and the rate of energy production will increase exponentially with time.

This is the tennis court example referred to earlier. I dumbed down the language a tad but you will see the same basic elements. You laugh but the first reactor was a tennis court.

Two conditions must be met before fission can be used to create powerful explosions: 1) the number of neutrons lost to fission (from non-fission producing neutron captures, or escape from the fissionable mass) must be kept low, and 2) the speed with which the chain reaction proceeds must be very fast. A fission bomb is in a race with itself: to successfully fission most of the material in the bomb before it blows itself apart. The degree to which a bomb design succeeds in this race determines its efficiency. A poorly designed or malfunctioning bomb may "fizzle" and release only a tiny fraction of its potential energy.

The key words here are Very Fast. A nuclear weapon is designed to function as a fast reaction. To make it go bang you need to have a huge number of collisions in an extremely short period of time. You want the weapon to use all of the fuel in the vey shortest period of time.

A civilian reactor is a slow reaction. It is designed this way to maximize the thermal output over an extended period of time. It uses material (fuel) with a much lesser neutron density. If the weapons grade is like trying to burn gasoline then civilian reactor fuel is like trying to burn cows milk. You laugh. In fact when you drink milk your body "burns" the milk and extracts the nutrients. Bad analogy but it gives the idea.

The reactors at Fukushima Daiichi are thermal reactors (Mk I BWR). They use slow neutrons. The  fuel consists of cylindrical rods put into bundles. The fuel bundles usually are enriched several percent in 235U. Bomb fuel is enriched to a much higher percentage. But even bomb grade fuel is difficult to make go bang. You really have to work at it. It is not easy.

But the real issue here is with your friends in Tokyo. The true threat here is not a big bang but further fire / explosion which creates a plume of radioactive debris which will go where the wind wants it to go. Trav is correct when he states that the only radionuclides detected so far are gaseous and short lived.

Were a serious fire to take hold, or should a steam explosion occur, and should the wind be in the wrong direction then this could get ugly. But with each passing day the decay heat lessens and some very brave dudes are working their butts off to make sure your Tokyo friends have nothing to worry about. I salute them cause nobody is going to remember them 15 minutes after this event is over.

Hope this explanation helps.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:21 | Link to Comment Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

Sushi-san. Being a manual believer is not working in unusual situations. This explanation of the difference between military and civil fuel is only good for the theory. The problem is that the civil fuel, may be not so civil as at the reactor #3 for example, where they report Plutonium mix. We do not really know what they use.
While melting at high temperature the fuel changes its parameters. Of course it should not explode the manual says. And if it does they will pay us refund, right?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 09:01 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

 

Are you making reference to some form of ionized plasma? If so I am out of my depth and have no answer.

But what I do understand still holds and I see no path by which fuel melt or high temps increase the neutron density such that the molten mass goes bang.

Remember that once the fuel assemblies and all the other core components melt they form a hetrogenous mass. This is no longer fuel but a mess of fuel, steel, control rods and all the rest. Since this is all molten, and mixed, you will lessen the neutron density not increase it.

The bottom of the containment is intended to capture this molten mass, spread it out above the boron impregnated pan (the boron will lower the neutron flux) and this physical spreading will act to reduce temperatures and and assist cooling. This form of failure was forseen at the time of plant design and the containment is intended to address exactly this issue. In other words you see danger in the plant failinging exactly the way the planners want and expect it to fail. I do not share your concern.

A gap or other opening in the containment structure is of concern as it would permit the introduction of O2 into the reactor vessel and increase the liklihood of an H2 explosion of which we have already seen several. This also increases the risk of a cladding fire and that is a serious hazard.

Even more worrisome is the roughly 1,200 tons (yes tons) of spent fuel sitting in the SFP. Once the coolant water boils away this will heat and ultimately explode due to H2 release and zirconium ignitition. This is another very serious hazard. But this is still not a bang. Build a bonfire and what do you get? Sparks go up everywhere. Build a bonfire in this facility and all those sparks and debris will be radioactive, all the particulate matter carried aloft by the heat will be radioactive and all this crap and debris will land somewhere. This is the big risk.

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:45 | Link to Comment A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

It was explained to me thus - fear is an emotional response, therefore it hits the brain faster than a logical one. This is why the caveman who ran when he heard something survived while the one that waited until it was confirmed as a sabre tooth tiger did not. At times like this, trust your gut instincts - it's what got us here.

So when a man on the television calmly explains why it's ok, but you look at the picture of unit 3 and think that reminds me of Chernobyl, GTFO.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:24 | Link to Comment PY-129-20
PY-129-20's picture

About probability. You know, they just made a terrible experience with a wrong assumed probability. They didn't expect a 9.0 earthquake + tsunami waves. oooops. About probability - 9/11 - "it's absolutely impossible that the towers could go down..." ooops.

You might be correct. But I've seen too many mistakes already and too much deception and lies so far. Hard to tell what's really going on. Anyone got pictures of Reactor no. 2?

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:40 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

Not to make you feel worse, but nobody lives forever. Some people there feel they need to stay for many reasons regardless of their own well being.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 04:14 | Link to Comment ATG
ATG's picture

Friends, at least two reactor core containers cracked open

Here's one:

http://ransquawk.com/headlines/126156

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:19 | Link to Comment projectxland
projectxland's picture

they need to send this guy in...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv_oQ9EvIrM

 

(been bullied his entire school life apparently)

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:38 | Link to Comment RmcAZ
RmcAZ's picture

Lmao...

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:38 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

You are just getting started. I'm proud! Keep up the good interrogation. Don't ever let me down!  RIP

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:17 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Just saw someone on TV bring up a good point...

Where the fuck is the IAEA?

They left 50 workers to take care of this and thats it?

Cut their fuckin' funding and disband that worthless piece of shit.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:20 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

As I said in a post a few days ago...in the industry, the IAEA is considered to be a joke.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:24 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Seeing as you are someone who knows something about this...

WHat do you think is the worse case? I hear people say the core can melt to the water table, I've heard the core can explode if it gets hot enough...

You designed these type of reactors what do you think?

....I just don't know, my knowledge of this goes back to chemistry in college which was a long time ago.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:03 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

I had this discussion with Pete on a previous post. I have never believed in the "China Syndrome." Nuclear plants are built on rock. And, under the drywell is  several feet of boron entrained concrete. It did not happen at chernobyl, and I do not think it will happen here. The only way this type of reactor can explode (steam explosion) is if there is water in the core. I have no way of knowing how much water is in the core, but my guess is very little....that is the problem! Nor will the rods in the spent fuel pool explode...not in themselves...all the rods, whether in the core or in the pool can and will produce hydrogen gas if they get uncovered and heat up. This will probably explode. The worst case here is not any kind of nuclear explosion...that cannot happen...it will be burning and hydrogen explosions that will eject materials. We are talking a lot of mass of fissile material here, since we are talking four reactors close together and in trouble. That is the problem. If I knew the history of the refuels and how many rod bundles are stored in each building, I could calculate the total mass of the material and come up with a number of how much radiological effluvia could be ejected. I do not have those numbers. But, the operator of the plant does. Gamma rays are a non-starter, unless you are right there close to the plants. Contaminated particulate matter that may be ejected from the plant is the worry. If you consider a complete meltdown of all four plants, then the thing you want to happen is for the containment to hold the melt. The spent fuel pools are not going to be held back under a total melt, operator evacuation scenario. At least some of them will dry out, the Zirconium cladding will burn, and radiation will emit. I see no scenario where the spent rods explode, it is theoretically possible under a very narrow range of circumstances, but is very unlikely. I think in the end, if things go completely AWOL, you will see hydrogen explosions that blow the buildings apart (what is left of them), and you will see a large radiological event. This may come from the core of one compromised containment, and certainly from the spent pools.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:22 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

i doubt the buildings will blow up simply because any blast now will be unsupported as the buildings are open.

The worst-case here is a steam explosion and/or zircaloy fire which liberates heavy gamma emitters.

I expect a full meltdown from all uncooled cores.  It seems now that it is getting exceptionally hard for them to maintain cooling for any length of time.  The worst issue now is the SFP situation.  Once exposed to air, if they have sufficient heat we can have a rapid high temperature oxidation.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:35 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Seeing as there is steam could that not suggest the possibility of the core being in the water table?

To me it seems completely in the realm of possibility with everything considered.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:36 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

No, if steam is being ejected, it is from water they are and have injected into the core.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:46 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Out of curiosity how can it be ruled out?

I don't think they are pumping enough water to generate the type of steam we are seeing.

Especially if the crews are leaving....

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:50 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

The China syndrome scenario means a full core melt that drives its way through steel, concrete and rock...it takes time. Look up "Corium" on Wikipedia.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:53 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

the water table would be emitting steam from different places.

Don't buy into the china syndrome thing; that's a fraud.

The reactor boils stuff and they periodically release steam pressure.  I'm not sure how anyone can know how much water they are pumping; let's hope it's a metric assload

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:07 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I'm not saying I buy into the China syndrome but I don't see why it can't at least hit the water table.

And as for the steam coming up in multiple locations, I'm pretty sure it is...its been reported at both reactor 3 and 4 (at least) though when I was watching the video earlier it looked like the steam was coming up from everywhere.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 05:25 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

 

 

Think of the reactor as a pressure cooker.

They are using fire equipment. You are lucky if you can get 135 psi on a fire line. I have worked with those pressures but we used a gas turbine water pump to achieve them - basically an aircraft gas turbine connected to a big water pump.

The pressure inside the reactor will be greater than 135 PSI. To get anything in there you need a force greater than 135 psi or you need to release some of the internal pressure to permit entry of the water stream.

They have been venting the pressure in the reactor and that gives off steam.

That "steam" may also have been white smoke from oxidizing fuel bundle cladding.

If it is steam that implies something is being cooled and that is what they want to achieve at this point in time.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:40 | Link to Comment Aristarchan
Aristarchan's picture

i doubt the buildings will blow up simply because any blast now will be unsupported as the buildings are open.

 

Therefore my: what is left of them.

I think you are agreeing with me, but only the Zirconium is likely to burn on the rods in the pool...the fuel pins are ceramic entrained and have a melt temp of 5000 degress, I do not see the same thermal conditions existing in a huge spent fuel pool that exist in the bottom of a drywell.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:53 | Link to Comment Michael
Michael's picture

What happens when the weather gives a hard rain ?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:57 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

well, what is left is the SFP.  Air blasts dissipate INCREDIBLY rapidly.  And there is no blast reinforcement except outward.  This is why they use shaped charges and one of the conspiracy theories about Murrah.

I agree WRT the zircaloy and posted a DOE link on another thread, part of it said:

A further literature survey of the recent European works on degraded core phenomenon

[23] has confirmed that the zircaloy oxidation is highly exothermic and commonly leads to a runaway "oxidation temperature excursion" above 1473 K (2191 F) in steam and at as low as 1173 K (1651 F) in air.

This was a paper studying the effects of, get this- a drained SFP.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:21 | Link to Comment sushi
sushi's picture

Trav brought up the zircalloy claddding fire issue in a prior thread and he had a document which supported that thesis.

 

I replied and attached another NRC doc that stated cladding fire highly unlikely as the temps on the spent fuel bundles cannot reach ignition temp.

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 06:22 | Link to Comment Jack H Barnes
Jack H Barnes's picture

Here is the data you requested as of Nov 2010

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/6-1_powerpoint.pdf

Total spent fuel as of march 2010 on site was 1,760 tons out of a capacity of 2,100 tons.

spent fuel assenblys at each of the units pools is 3,450 assemblys. There is 408 in dry cask and 6,291 in the common pool.  Total capacity of assemblies is listed as 15,558 with 10,149 assemblies on site. 

 

This is approximately 450% of the total core capacity of all six units. The common spent fuel storage pool has capacity of 6840 assemblies with 6291 (90% full).

 

No data on the MOX load % used that I have found yet.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 10:05 | Link to Comment Cthonic
Cthonic's picture

Thanks for sharing this information, though I read it a little differently: 3450 spent fuel assemblies spread across all six reactor spent fuel pools.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:17 | Link to Comment OldPhart
Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:21 | Link to Comment Tail Dogging The Wag
Tail Dogging The Wag's picture

When will someone rank this apocalypse as a 7? The emergency response to this disaster makes "Brownie" look like Superman.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:26 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

7?

 

This will easily exceed that if those spent fuel rods which are apparently just scattered about, shedding radioactive isotopes, burning brightly in the open air, on the cusp of melting and pooling together, get lit.

And this is why "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive."

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:34 | Link to Comment Korg
Korg's picture

No shit!  I still have heard NOTHING, Nothing about the fuelrod pool in reactors 1-3! WTF? So the fuckin giant explosions didn't hurt the fuel pools??? right..... If the folks in Tokyo were told that there are tons of exposed fuel rods laying all over that area and will emit radiation for years....guess what....Tokyo would be a ghosttown soon.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:12 | Link to Comment reader2010
Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:38 | Link to Comment Tail Dogging The Wag
Tail Dogging The Wag's picture

Exactly my point, TIS

But before we get to uncharted waters eg. 10 we need to let the Japanese Government admit that this is as bad as Chernobyl was, before we can even escalate it to 8, then 9, and then 10.

 

As I write this, Col. Gaddafi is preparing his blitzkrieg invasion of Benghazi...  guess what will happen to every inhabitant of that city that survives the initial attack. On the other hand, a Joint Invasion force comprised of Saudi, Kuwaiti, and Emirati forces has taken Bahrain, while Iran looks simultaneously at Israel and its breathren in Bahrain.... and I almost forgot, Japan is slowly cooking in a microwave trap. All the while, all Mr Obama can think of is his trip to Latin America this week where he'll sit down with the new Brazilian President and have some nice T-Bone steak, then off to Chile for some nice wine and some copper souvenirs before the Chinese get to it, and maybe he'll send some Peace Corps volunteers to Bolivia to look at those Lithium deposits. The show must go on.

Big Money is certainly happy with Barack Obama.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:51 | Link to Comment Selah
Selah's picture

 

Maybe they should change their slogan to: "Change You Won't Believe!"

Bush was an idiot, but he would grab the world's attention and act like a leader. Clinton, Reagan, maybe even Carter...

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:11 | Link to Comment zaphod
zaphod's picture

Oh come on now, Obama is most definitely a leader.

 

For example, this morning he lead the free world by picking his brakets, and then when out for a short 9 holes. If thats not a full day I don't know what is.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 02:56 | Link to Comment Selah
Selah's picture

 

I stand corrected...

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:27 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Because it's going to be an 8 or 9 when its done.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:30 | Link to Comment Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

This "New" Tokyo Rose attempt at state sponsored Baghdad Bob-isms and disinformation is just unreal. How there are any financial markets open in Japan is beyond me, these folks don't need to raise capital because unless someone does some fast thinking, there will be nothing but an "I AM Legend" town left to try and rebuild. Good luck getting any kind of ROI on a disease ravaged apolcalyptic wasteland, where high tide brings in bodies by the 1,000's. Sick and twisted response by these soon to be Hari-Kari'ists in high government.

I wonder how Barry Soetero's March Madness bracket is lookin'   

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:35 | Link to Comment Korg
Korg's picture

+400microsieverts

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 03:41 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

You spark my interest. Radiate my feelings.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:46 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

I am sure they've been told to let their markets open because Goldman Sucks/JPM need to make a killing there. Just read on another forum that back in the US they have distributed haz-mat suits to military/police/FEMA units. Got KI? The shit is gonna hit fan.

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