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Ratigan Discusses Wikileaks Video, Observes Implications On US Rules Of Engagement And Foreign Response To US Actions

Tyler Durden's picture


Dylan Ratigan is joined by Julian Assange, co-founder of Wikileaks, Lt. Colonel Anthony Shaffer, from the Center for Advance Defense Studies, Glen Greenwald, from and Brett McGurk from the CFR, in discussing today's must watch video. Assange states that the purpose of releasing these videos is to show how "modern aerial warfare is being done" and "to show the debasement and moral corruption of soldiers as a result of war." As pertains to the video, Julian states the obvious: if indeed the military believed him to be an insurgent, the wounded man should be interrogated and asked about what he was doing. The army's desire is merely "to kill as many people as possible, to get as high a score as possible, and then brag about it to the rest of the troops." McGurk is laconic "this is a tragic, tragic video." Shaffer does a detailed analysis on the Rules of Engagement (Minimum Force and Capture and Interrogate being primary), especially when the engaging party on the US behalf is something that appears straight out of Call of Duty, and can be controlled by the same 19 year old joystick-happy day traders that gun the market day in and day out. Lastly Greenwald discusses the responsibility of the media to cover these kinds of events. As Glen notes, "Wikileaks is absolutely heroic, because this kind of footage is seen all the time in the Muslim world, about what we are doing over there, and what the effect of our missions are, but it is seen very rarely over here... This is far from uncommon...What do you think the people who this video and the family members who are surviving, are going to think about the U.S. over the next 2 or 3 decades." 

Of course, anything that forces average America to put down its iPad for more than 5 minutes will be promptly ignored as there are much more critical games of scrabble to be won.    



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Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:28 | 287528 kizzle
kizzle's picture

The effective range of an AK 47 is 400 meters.  Using a rough estimate of a 30mm muzzle velocity of 1 km per second and the 2.5 second fire to impact delay puts these helicopters way out of range for an AK and of significant safety breadthe of an RPG.  These ahem "soldiers" will have to live the rest of their lives knowing they killed innocent men women and children. 

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:33 | 287536 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Yeah that's a heavy punishment, their own conscience.  At least threaten to bend their dog tags and stamp their meal card no dessert.  We are the evil foreign invaders.  We invaded under false pretenses and now we remain in their country because maybe just maybe angry people will come from there.  Surely staying there and murdering people will calm them down...

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:31 | 287861 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

Yes.  America used to have the moral high-ground in the world.  That went a long way to those who saw the soldiers as helpful and not hurtful.  I'm not quite sure where we lost it, but its not there any more.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 03:04 | 288178 macfly
macfly's picture

As a kid I grew up believing we were the good guys, but since the terrible events of 9/11 I have become convinced we are the Evil Empire.

We have no right to be there or police anyone, especially when we all know that 9/11 was not what they would have us believe.




Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:45 | 287546 sangell
sangell's picture

That's a non sequitur. Shoud artillary not be used because it longer range than a rifle. The helicopters were aerial scouts for US forces moving through that area. If they find armed men peeking around the side of building to view the approach of US forces what would you have them do. Use a loudspeaker and tell those guys to 'freeze'.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:58 | 287575 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

How about figure out whether they were really bad guys before they BLEW THEM AWAY??????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?  That would be a really good idea, I think.  Or maybe that would be a non-sequitur too, to trigger-happy pricks in their flying machines.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:13 | 287606 kizzle
kizzle's picture

I'm just pointing out the fact that these "soldiers" did not follow rules of engagement; they were clearly not under fire and they were well out of range of an AK47 (and that they would have to live with these facts, imo won't be easy and will probably commit suicide if any of them have a soul...).  Ever shot an AK47? 400 meter range is being very generous. 

Now if the helicopters were under direct fire, or were providing immediate and direct air support for ground troops (which these clearly were not), then hell yes light em up. Scouting is one thing, support is another.

And I disagree with Ratigan, these criminals should be court marshalled, prosecuted and hung.

OT but what side is Soros on anyway?  It seems he just wants to stir things up whenever he can.  The more chaos revealed/created the more money he makes?  Does he have some sort of entropy model?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:41 | 287663 Raymond K Hassel
Raymond K Hassel's picture

If you watch the entire feed from Wikileaks - there is a point approximately 30 seconds prior to engagement where the operator says 'fuck' in reference to what does look to be a guy with what looks to be an RPG peeking around a corner and then shouldering in the direction of the Apache what is not an AK-47. 

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:49 | 287681 Raymond K Hassel
Raymond K Hassel's picture

may be a camera, just saying in the hot seat, it ain't an easy call - don't point long tubular objects at Apache gun ships and assume they will know what it is - the camera resolution isn't that good.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 01:00 | 288103 Zeno of Citium
Zeno of Citium's picture

Too small to be of any impact on a 2km away copter. An RPG wouldn't help at all against anything but a landing helicopter (or flying *very* low). A SAM tube would look at least as big as the guy holding it.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 07:38 | 288301 BoeingSpaceliner797
BoeingSpaceliner797's picture

"OT but what side is Soros on anyway?"

He is not on a "side."  He is from the "divide and conquer" cabal; they have no side but their own (which is not to be confused with traditional "sides").

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 08:23 | 288326 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Thanks for your idiotic opinion, Mr. Robert Gates.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:49 | 287896 YourAverageDebtSlave
YourAverageDebtSlave's picture

I bet those "ahem 'soldiers'" were paid with your tax dollars as where the weapons they used to kill with.  Those "ahem 'soldiers'" are over there killing for the oil that was used to create the computer you typed your response on.  Killing for the oil that gives you "freedom" to enjoy all the other luxuries you enjoy in an American empire a 17th century king couldn't even dream of.  The blood is on your hands too.  Your comment is like watching a woman get beat to death by her boyfriend and saying, "That's a crying shame he's killing her," and then lighting up a cigarrete to watch the action.  Know that the lifestyle you enjoy as an American is on the caskets of many more than what was shown in the video.  The American lifestyle and its "freedoms" have killed many innocent men, women, and children.  I believe those soliders will live just like you and I do, enjoying a life of intentional ignorance

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:10 | 288230 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

COTD[Comment of the day]

+1000000000000000000000 e1000

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 18:37 | 289140 Mercury
Mercury's picture

When can we expect to see that oil by the way? That argument is getting a little long in the tooth.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 12:26 | 288609 Mazarin
Mazarin's picture

Those are 50 cal rounds...about 3,000 feet per second, from a fixed mount, long barelled gun, range is easily over a mile...The people on the ground 1) could not hear the chopper, 2) could not hear the gun until well after the bullets had blown them to pieces, 3) could not even tell which direction the rounds were coming from and so take appropriate cover. Shooting unarmed people from a helicopter a mile away with a modern telescopic-sighted long barrel 50 cal machine gun is like shooting large fish in a small barrel. Takes no skill, and ZERO courage. Totally evil.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:31 | 287535 sangell
sangell's picture

I'd suggest anyone who is 'shocked' by this go rent of buy the William Wyler's WW2 classic 'Thunderbolt' ( its in color too). P-47 pilots scour the European countryside and shoot anything that moves. "Somebody in that field" a pilot says, then with his .50 calibres blazing mows him down with the remark " no friend of mine. Trains are shot up, houses, it was war and the pilots were there to win it.

Nothings changed except the gun camera resolution.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:52 | 287566 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

It was a movie, dimwit. Are you not clear on the difference?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:35 | 287650 sangell
sangell's picture

It was a documentary. Real pilots , real combat footage.

Wyler also did Memphis Belle, the documentary, but you probably only saw his movies, like Ben Hur, which you may have, mistakenly, believed to be a documentary.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:35 | 287537 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

sadly, for them, they are sitting on our oil.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 07:41 | 288304 BoeingSpaceliner797
BoeingSpaceliner797's picture

And QE II's poppy fields.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:40 | 287541 whacked
whacked's picture

And the US do not intend to investigate further ..


Disgusting ... 'they are playing video games with other peoples lives' ...


Reconfirms my distaste for the US and their policies .. FU!!

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 10:40 | 288459 bchbum
bchbum's picture

FU!?  Most of the people here are against this AND from the u.s.  What great country are you from?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:43 | 287544 Catullus
Catullus's picture

This is a far cry away from fighting the lava monster.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:47 | 287550 ewmayer
ewmayer's picture

But, as long as the "good soldiers" and their trusty drone-wars video-games consoles are killing their daily ration of "30 militants" somewhere in East Elbonistan, all is well.


(Do a Google search of [kill "30 militants"] and you'll be amazed how many times those 30 apparently-quite-resilient militants have been killed. Why they can't they just stay dead, already?)

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:50 | 287560 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

And don't think for ONE SECOND that, your friendly government won't do EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO YOU.

Gonna be a revolution, ya know.



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:03 | 287586 Judge
Judge's picture

I know for damn certain that most of the troops wouldn't.



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:10 | 287599 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

Tell that to the Kent State kids.  And the My Lai folks.  And (do I need to continue for the next 15 years?)..

I trust a trained killer with a gun about as far as I can shoot with my own Barrett.  So when I see those "troops" out a couple thousand yards,  suppose I can smoke them, and it will all be OK.   

Well, I feel better now.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:33 | 287645 Judge
Judge's picture

What don't you understand about the word "most"... in addition the kent state kids where attacking/had attacked the troops all day with rocks and some molotov cocktails.  There had been several assualts and looting in the city.  Building were set afire and many in the crowd were armed bikers.  There was a great deal of violence.  Many of the soliders were injured by the rocks thrown.  Many guardsmen were in fear of their lives from the crowds and several testified a sniper fired first from the knoll.


It's not as clear or simple as you would paint it.  But only a small handful of the guardsmen fired - out of probably a 1000 there.


Hate America and the truth much?





Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:43 | 287654 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

I love the truth, which is why I continue the futile attempt to provide it to idiots like yourself.  Only a small handful is all it takes, in case you weren't clear.  And I don't remember how many guardsmen died... oh, wait.... NONE.  Or how many were taken to the hospital for injuries.... oh, wait..... TWO.  And both release the SAME FUCKING DAY.  

Check YOUR truth.  

The only thing I hate is idiocy, and government can't-think-for-themselves drones.  Which may explain my animosity toward you.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:35 | 287871 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

I agree.  Most sociopaths can be hired, paid well and convinced anyone is their enemy.  I do have great trust in my fellow-man acting in his own power, but when someone else urges him to act with good pay or threat of death himself, bad things can happen.  How do people think the Holocaust was pulled off?  The commander of Auschwitz-Birkenau used to rev his engine in his truck so he couldn't hear people screaming because he didn't want to be the one screaming.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 01:09 | 288111 Real Wealth
Real Wealth's picture

Kent state?  I remember being a middle school kid in very late 80s and the English teacher going on a liberal rant about that.

  I said, "Yeah, but weren't they throwing stones?"

   At which point she was like, "O yeah stones!" and the class started laughing.

   Hey, lady, what is one of the oldest methods of execution around?  Stoning!  How about we give the faculty guns and let the entire student body throw rocks at them and see what happens.

    If a liberal/Muslim/whatever is trying to KILL you with a rock/AK-47/whatever, you don't have to fight "fair." 



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:50 | 287561 ananda
ananda's picture

Spartacus allegedly said when he was crucified: "I will return and I will be millions."

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:03 | 287585 samsterns
samsterns's picture

A historical critique of that particular scene.  Spartacus's body was never found by Crassus or the Romans.  I like to think that he escaped and lived among the free in some other country.  In the movie, Crassus had Spartacus crucified in secret and his ashes scattered so no one would remember his legend.  But I do agree with you, He will return and he will be millions.

I hope that it will be soon.  Btw, Charles Laughton was great as was Olivier.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:51 | 287563 Judge
Judge's picture

And the pussification of America continues.  Hell yes, we want soldiers who have to mirandize and body search before opening fire.  You want to know how the Iraqi's feel - they feel just like the afstans and the paks - here's a quote from the NYT's on how the locals view us fighting AQ:


The question of civilian deaths is an almost daily worry, all four men said. “Civilians are worried because there is hardly a house without a fighter,” the militant said.

Two of the government supporters said they knew of civilians, including friends, who had been killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, they said, they are prepared to sacrifice the civilians if it means North Waziristan will be rid of the militants, in particular the Arabs.

“On balance, the drones may have killed 100, 200, 500 civilians,” said one of the men. “If you look at the other guys, the Arabs and the kidnappings and the targeted killings, I would go for the drones.”


Folks that haven't been there just need to shut the hell up - they don't have a clue.  All this tape does is help the enemy - which means more US troops are at risk/die.




Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:01 | 287570 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

Well, that is a nice long non-sequitur.  We are killing Iraqi's because, well....WTF are we killing Iraqi's again?

The only idiot without a clue is you, "Judge".  Too bad you really think you are one.

And, hey - you walk around on the ground, and I'll shoot you from a heli with a .50.  And then you won't have to be a "pussy" any more.  Or, wait, maybe it was the dickheads in the heli who were the "weenies"....

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:02 | 287583 Judge
Judge's picture

we're not killing Iraqi's - if you'd actually get your lazy ass off the couch and go over there you'd find that out.  Most of the kids LOVE American troops b/c they were hiding behind them when there were gunfights.

You're the one believing the lie, and you call someone else clueless?  Just wow - words cease to have meaning in this age. Pre-pubescent couch potatoes think they are god and all knowing.  No wonder obama won and this country is screwed up.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:13 | 287602 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

So these 12 were - what - Chinese?  Nicaraguan?  Really?  It is just really too easy when you tee it up like that.  Prepubescent?  I'm 54.  MARINE, you ass.  Done more duty than you ever could imagine, you puke.  And the government sucks.  And idiots like you make it worse.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:51 | 287687 Cistercian
Cistercian's picture

 Thank you Marine.I was mentored by a ww2 pow.He was captured at Bataan.He told me everything about what he had experienced, about breaking under torture, the brutality, the horror.

 As you might imagine, I was more than a little disgusted to see the US embrace "enhanced interrogation".These scum need to be rooted out...and not cheered.It is so sad to see how far we have fallen.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:40 | 287880 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

I was told by some AF and Army officers that they liked pissing over the borders near the border patrol because the guys couldn't do anything to them when they were "in" the other country.  I was also told about loading AF planes with rotten or old pork and flying around dropping it in Baghdad.  They thought both stories were hilarious and said "no one was killed" while I assumed that someone probably has been killed through the resentment this creates. It is bad how far we have sunk. 

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:18 | 287618 Shameful
Shameful's picture

We are not killing Iraqis?  Are those gentlemen shapeshifting aliens?  What other magical thinking do you have?  Do guns shoot rainbows as well?

Why are we in Iraq now anyway?

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 10:40 | 288457 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Exactly, WHY in the hell are we still in IRAQ??? Is there some think tank in Washington, members sitting around a table, wringing their hands, "OH, we can't leave Iraq, there may be civil unrest"?




Tue, 04/06/2010 - 10:44 | 288465 bchbum
bchbum's picture

I don't think obama or his handlers want a couple hundred thousand young, unemployed men back in america.  Especially ones that know how to kill.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 15:18 | 288891 callistenes
callistenes's picture

Finally someone gets at the real truth.

We never recovered from the dot com bust. And the Iraq war started in what April '03 at the bottom of the recessions that has never really ended?

And Jesus 52 - - 32 fuck I had to open a sql query window since I'm too hungover to do the math "select 52 - -32"



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:20 | 287623 kizzle
kizzle's picture

I maybe feeding the trolls, but who then are we killing if not Iraqis?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:44 | 287672 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Your right. We killed our Iraqis back during the sanctions and no-fly zone days.

A) Hiding behind a soldier when bullets rain is self-preservation...not love.

B) These days, its all a lie. Side is all that matter

C) Again. The true warrior will look his adversary in the eyes. Anything else is just "Pussification"

D) Why are we there? You still have yet to answer this question.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:57 | 287574 Catullus
Catullus's picture

Hear that folks: if we don't kill them, we may be thought of as "pussies". 

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:46 | 287674 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Yet they are somehow still winning after 18 years of "killing them all"

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:04 | 287589 Cistercian
Cistercian's picture

 I am ashamed that Nazi scum like you live in my country.You are a depraved and evil scumbag.

 You support torture too don't you?


 I have some news for you agent of the are going to lose.Do you hear me lowest of the slime?YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE.

 Evil sucks, and people like me take great delight in crushing it.Defeat looms you Nazi scumbag.

 Enjoy your depraved time.It will come to a violent it always has.Read a history book you ignorant moron.Get ready to be referenced under "failed evil empires".

 American? YOU ARE NOT.



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:04 | 287711 SteveNYC
SteveNYC's picture

If the Taliban was occupying the US with high-tech aircraft, drones, and tanks, there would "hardly be a house without a fighter" here too, right?

We have to ask ourselves: who the fuck are we going to blame, for real, when they blow up a plane or a building or a subway station or take out American overseas travelers etc etc.???

We will be and are as culpable as them. It is not their fault nor ours, both are culpable. And the killing will continue until one says "enough". We have the ability to defend ourselves without occupying their lands and killing.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:51 | 287798 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Amen brother,  I ask all these gun ho kill em all types, "how would you like it if China set up some bases in the US to protect their trillion dollar investment?" I get the, "Fuck no, I would kill all those Chinese bastards, if they set one foot in this Country."  Need I say more?

Ron Paul has the answers to this madness, but the military industrial complex would be diminished by his plan.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:02 | 287814 Shameful
Shameful's picture

That's because to those people they are not human.  Americans are special and magical while all other people are worse then garbage.  I've talked to people that thought ti was a good idea for the US to occupy all other nations in order to keep us safe.  Woe be unto us when we fall, and we are forced to reap the whirlwind.

I hope these gung ho murderers are apt to protect us from our own government (unlikely) or in the event of an invasion stand to their word and fight.  After all murdering people with high tech weapons from the sky is a lot harder then slogging it out with a well supplied invader.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:18 | 288233 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

I would love, abso-fucking-lutely love to throw you in the middle of a fucking war zone you fucking pussy and arm you with a photographic lens and surround you with 200 angry, drugged up African soldiers who believe you are a God and that consuming your still ticking heart will make them stronger. I would fucking love that, you fucking maggot. I really really REALLY hope that one night you get drunk and accidentally get shot by cops in an ally because they thought you were about to pull a gun on them when you were trying to light up your smoke. And your family gets to say jack shit because it was the right move made by cops. Karma, my boy, is a cruel bitch and make no mistake it will fuck you up beyond your wildest dreams. 

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 19:58 | 287578 Segestan
Segestan's picture

thank goodness the west is not being over- ran by third world immigration, especially since the west is bankrupt.. Now that would be stupid!

The whole Iraqi war was stupid but whats new.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:17 | 287591 Truth Excavator
Truth Excavator's picture

Currently, the thinking among a lot of pro-war people is that there is no room for professionalism in modern war. Nice guys don't finish last, they finish dead. But they're plain wrong. The problem, as Lt. Colonel Shaffer said, is lack of training and strict discipline. The context is important, but there would've been far less dead bodies in that situation if it weren't for trigger happy Call of Duty soldiers. You can't even defend their actions by saying they were in a circumstance of "shoot first, or be killed," because they weren't attacked first. It was "shoot first, and keep shooting for the thrill." But you can't blame the pilots for being stupid.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:09 | 287597 Froggy
Froggy's picture

The fact is that WL went to great lengths to say that these two "journalists" were war correspondents for Reuters.  What they didn't get around to mentioning was that they were essentially embedded with JAM (Jaish al Mahdi/Mahdi Army).  It is well known that these wire service "stringers" were not only intel sources for JAM/AQ, but it looked to me that they were in the process of staging the ambush of the Bradley column that the Apaches were riding shotgun for.  They were directly participating in the planning and coordination, for personal/professional gain and notoreity, the impending ambush of US forces on that day and the Apache crew caught them.  And they got smoked.  Good.

As to the "Good Samaritan" that "happened by", that guy got a cellphone call from whoever was left alive and that asshole chose to roll up on a fresh target with his fucking kids in the car.  I guarantee you that if he had let those kids out of that car, that would have ended the engagement right there.

I had a house that was north of Karmah that we knew was full of AQIZ leadership every day on Route Lincoln.  But they had taken it over from a family and the family was kept there as hostages knowing that we could not go kinetic on that house while women and children were present. 

If you gutless pussies had a clue what the fuck our enemies were capable of you'd understand why those Apaches lit those guys up.  It's a fucking war, its not a game.  You run with the wrong crowd, you can get caught.  You get complacent outside the wire, you get shot. 

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:25 | 287633 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

You have absolutely no idea if any of your conjectures are correct.  You make up shit ex post facto to justify blowing them away.  

Gutless pussy = people who think that the US should get out of Iraq.  Stupid jarhead = brainless idiot fool who will do whatever he is programmed to do.  

Your government loves folks like you.  King George loved the Redcoats too.  But they were easy to shoot - because they had a nice big red target on them.  Hint, hint.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:48 | 287679 sangell
sangell's picture

Perhaps, but you have already posted false verifiably false information on this thread when you said Wyler's Thunderbolt was a 'movie' therefore your credibility is zero. I'd suggest you take your orange toy Barrett and your stupid fantasies of shooting US troops to your room and let adults chat.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:24 | 287750 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Thunderbolt is an acknowledged narrated war propaganda film.  There is little to compare.

What scares me, however, that this footage indicates that "soldiers" like this are so brainwashed and disheveled that they would gladly "let em rip" on US civilians if their dear leader ordered them to and say "nice shot" while your neighbor is writhering, helplessly, aimlessly on the sidewalk for carrying his nikon with sholder strap and telephoto lense.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:38 | 287876 Froggy
Froggy's picture

There is no fucking way that US military forces would "let em rip" on American civilians.  To even infer something like that demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about who we are in the military.  You certainly do not have any close friends or family who have recently served in a combat role or you would have never made such a remark.  You owe me and everyone in the military an apology for that statement.

If there is a revolution in this country that is triggered by economics (and I certainly do not dismiss the possibility), you can rest assured that this POTUS will not have the support of the military if he were to contemplate cracking down on the civilian population using military forces. In the event that something of that nature were to transpire, Obama would quickly find himself the "victim" of a bloodless military coup.  He is not trusted by the vast majority of the US military and any orders to fire on civilians would be disobeyed.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:46 | 287998 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Bad apples Froggy, spoil the bushel. A rifle behind every blade of grass no longer applies when Apaches, GE engineered air support and hardened "soldiers" are employed. Your comment is reassuring.

Btw I didn't see this post so you can ignore my duplicate question (which im going to delete) prior to this comment thread.

As for all of the ad hominems they have never furthered any conversation anywhere. But at least this site allows the freedom to say what you want, no matter how much it furthers the debate.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:04 | 288227 halcyon
halcyon's picture

I recommend you read the Lucifer Effect to understand how military servicemen like you are coerced to do whatever is needed.

95% of people will bend under pressure and do what is told.

What makes you think that the military servicemen and women of USA belong to that holy 5% population who refuse?

Don't be naive. Read up on Milgram experiment and understand the social forces at play in Abu Ghraib.

You will shoot with 95% likelihood when your commanding officer tells you to and threatens you with court martial.

Whether the military is on the side of the president or against him, makes very little difference. Pure semantics.


Tue, 04/06/2010 - 07:59 | 288313 BoeingSpaceliner797
BoeingSpaceliner797's picture

Wasn't the oath that you, and all other US military, swear changed in the last several years?  Something about the mission and Commander-in-Chief being primary as opposed to the previous defend Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic? 

Now when the time comes, hopefully, enough members of the military remember the original oath and have the comparative reasoning skills to determine that the new oath is shit and not fire on their neighbors.  However, given the audio in this video, my hopes of the above are not bolstered.

Disclosure, youngest stepson did a tour in Iraq.  When he's willing to talk about it (which isn't often), I get as much first hand information as possible. 



Tue, 04/06/2010 - 09:03 | 288370 RocketmanBob
RocketmanBob's picture

Well friend, here's the oath I took upon arriving at Pansacola:


I,[My actual name], do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.


Notice that defending the Constitution comes before Obeying the President?  And there's nothing about "mission" mentioned.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:24 | 287634 Reese Bobby
Reese Bobby's picture

Thank you for your service to this country.  I wouldn't let spoiled NYC kids get you too excited.  I can only imagine what our enemy would do with our war technology.  There would be NO rules of engagement.  Civilians seem to be the favored targets of our savage enemy...which makes sense since Satan wrote their rule book.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:29 | 287640 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Well known? By whom? Were you there?  I've studied the tape and i dont see a phone call being made.  Can you explain further?

You had a house in Karmah that was had a family that was taken hostage...?  What did you do about that considering you had full knowledge?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:42 | 287665 Froggy
Froggy's picture

There wasn't much we could do since the place had IEDs buried all around it and like I said, the family was there all day and all night.  So we followed some of the guys who came and went and scooped them up at their houses until we found out where their truck bomb factory was and bombed that.

This was a common tactic of AQIZ as it effectively neutralized our ability to kinetically strike them all in one place and they knew it.  We were not about to assault that house knowing how well defended it was and full of kids. 

By 2007, all of the stupid terrorists had been dead for 2 years.  The people left were very savvy and intelligent, and we had to be very creative to get them.  And so we were.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:13 | 287732 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Seems that you followed the rules of engagment an there was no collateral damage. Well done.  Strikes like that do not tarnish our already soiled perception as warlord fat idol watching potatoe heads.

But you don't address the first portion of my comment...

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:20 | 287841 Froggy
Froggy's picture

Believe me, we went to incredible lengths to avoid collateral damage not just to satisfy ROE, but to gain the trust of the local populace and to avoid a lifetime's worth of personal regret.  We are so far from the histrionic characterizations made by fantasists like Sistercian it is ridiculous. 

In any case, in my experience your average Iraqi motorist simply does not stop to help his fellow countrymen in the same way you or I might here in the US.  Terrorists regularly feign car trouble or set up illegal roadblocks in order to snare ordinary Iraqis to steal from them or kidnap them for ransom to purchase weapons, ammo, phones, supplies, etc.  People don't just roll up on a fresh kinetic air strike like you would a car accident on the interstate.  You mind your own damn business in Iraq if you know what's good for you.  So if that guy rolled up minutes from the attack, he was almost certainly in cahoots with the cell that was setting up to ambush the Bradley column.  I am actually a bit surprised that the guy didn't get his kids out of the van in plain sight in order to use them as human shields.  This is very common and 100% effective in stopping US forces from engaging with very few exceptions.



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:42 | 287882 kizzle
kizzle's picture

I understand expeirence gives you a different point of view.  I've never stated and do not claim to know whether or not these particular individuals are hostile or not or will be sometime in the future.  However, clearly the video shows that the "soldiers" claim to identify 5 to 6 insurgents "with AK47s".  This is clearly not the case.  They also claim they were under RPG fire.  Again, this is clearly not the case.  These are not "good kills" by any stretch of the sane imagination.  War is not pretty but what we see here is ghastly and appalling and downright shameful. 

On the flip side it is equally appaling and disturbing what what lengths some of the extremists do to the own kind and the manipulation done to the poor there.

There is of course a solution. Leave. Suck it up. Be men. Admit defeat or at least admit there are no winners. Stop wasting money and lives.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:29 | 287974 Froggy
Froggy's picture

But we were not defeated.  I was in Iraq when Harry Reid said, "the war is lost."  I saw that on the news at dinner right after reading an after action report for an armored unit in Habbaniyah wrapping up a 5 day operation that put 200 AQIZ in the grave, set up a couple of key combat outposts to keep the bastards out and freed those neighborhoods from a crushing AQIZ Murder and Intimidation campaign that had lasted more than 2 years. 

We beat them.  We gained the trust of the Iraqi people.  We haven't lost a soldier in combat in Iraq in months.  They have the most functional democracy in the region apart from Israel and they are true allies of the US.  Their location provides us the ability to keep Iran in some amount of containment.

I declare Victory in Iraq with pride.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 09:47 | 288402 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Then let's get our troops out of there.  We didn't need to be there in the first place (no WMDs remember).  This one was for papa Bush. 

We have spent trillions fighting a tactic (terrorism), lost many of our own freedoms and perhaps added to the bankruptcy of our Country (Soviet Union style).  Time to end the madness.  We keep kicking hornets nests and wondering why we get stung.  I guess it comes down to oil and the military industrial complex.  Orwell was right when he wrote about endless wars in which we lose track of who and why we are fighting.

Videos like this remind us of why this is so pointless and sad.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:45 | 287886 Cistercian
Cistercian's picture

 I can only comment on what I know.The Abu Ghraib photos were shameful.The videotape today is shameful too.It is not naive to say so, it is human.I refuse to accept the troops of the US acting in a bestial fashion.I know there are many who serve honorably.But the more and more frequent examples of our troops acting like monsters is not acceptable.Not even a little.

 Those who provide excuses or rationalizations for beastly behavior not only share in the crime, but they drag our country into the mire as well.

 Torture and rendition continue as policy.That is no fantasy.


 But it is digusting, vile and un American.



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:33 | 287648 Cistercian
Cistercian's picture

 The " gutless pussies" comment is weak, and makes you look stupid.Since rather intense combat occurs in our cities, with concomitant very sinister tactics, I also have to call BS on how "bad" our enemies are.DUH ultraviolent douchebag...there are no rules.

 Here's a suggestion about we nuke the cities into puddles of glass?Is that vigilant enough for you?That way we experience zero loss.You know, shoot first, question the evil stupidity of it later?Would that not be cheaper too?

 Some people prefer truth.Not ridiculous, self serving propaganda that also gets one off the hook for murder.But murder is what that video shows.Not war.Just evil in action....nice.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:52 | 287690 Froggy
Froggy's picture

If you had the slightest inkling about how completely naive and inadequate your abilities to assess this situation were, that would give you some kind of defense.  But you don't from your club chair in Starbucks or wherever you have been sitting on your ass not risking it for anything or anyone for the past decade. 

If you had spent one hour watching people you knew live on predator feed hitting a target that you found by spending hours with local Iraqis.  If you had patrolled through a street in Rahaliyah crawling with JAM (Mahdi Army) and having two Apaches over your head making them think twice about messing around with you.  You might understand.

But you are content to sit on your ass doing whatever it is you do and calling people murderers for defending their comrades in a war.  Fuck you, pussy about sums it up for me to you.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:11 | 287729 Cistercian
Cistercian's picture

 Club chair in starbucks?That is too funny.I hope you derive some sense of satisfaction from what you do, but defending my freedoms?FU arrogant asshole.I am an American, and you are the vanguard removing my freedoms.You project power and dominate the battlespace, not for me, but for the evil scum like Cheney.You are a stormtrooper, and you are savaging people in my name.

 You think you are making me safe?You are a deluded tool.You think you are an instrument of freedom?You enslave me and the entire world.My taxes come out of the barrel of your gun and kill innocents.You are unconscious.Murdering in my name serves neither freedom nor justice.

 You think I have no clue about what is happening.I know and your ilk are killing like champions, and serving evil in the process.Were you actually defending freedom or truth or the Ideals that make America great, I would support you with all I am.

 But you are the minion of liars and thieves.And it breaks my heart to say it.

 Not that that is something you would understand.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:46 | 287890 Froggy
Froggy's picture

Are you going for some kind of Guinness record for shopworn, lefty conspiracy cliches in a single post?  Seriously dude, put down Counterpunch!, the Nation, and Mother Jones and spend some time with actual veterans.  The motivations that you are ascribing to people are so far fetched, tired, and pathetic that I find it difficult to imagine you having the social ability to actually make friends outside of your little psychological meme bubble that you have constructed for yourself. 

Wipe the drool off of your keyboard you fucking lunatic.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:58 | 287918 Cistercian
Cistercian's picture

 When the truth is not on your side, there is always the ad hominem.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:20 | 287952 Froggy
Froggy's picture

OK, I get it.  When I go ad hominem the truth is clearly not on my side, but when you go there its because of what?... Xenu or Gaia revealed to you wisdom from a fount which slakes the thirst for knowledge of mighty word warriors like yourself?

I was THERE.  I understand the context.  You are a spoon fed lefty with WikiLeaks' baited hook in your mouth.  You are so cliche.  Dropping Cheney/abu Ghraib references, but you forgot Erik Prince and Blackwater and Halliburton and fuck it McDonalds too.  

You are sorely lacking in two things: Original thought and actual experience.  You are a living mockery of your own pathetic conspiracy theories, dude.  I'll bet you are a 9/11 Truther too.  

Get some help.  Or don't, I could give a fuck.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:31 | 287975 kizzle
kizzle's picture

"I could give a fuck"

Would you fire upon citizens of the United States on US soil if ordered to do so?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:48 | 287996 Froggy
Froggy's picture

Of course not.  Nobody in the military would.

I could give a fuck if a lunatic like Sistercian gets psychiatric help, not about firing on US civilians.

Firing on US civilians by the US military is such an impossibility that it saddens me to even be asked that question. 

I don't know what kind of moron National Guardsmen were at Kent State in the 60's, but unless we were being attacked in a channelized area with no feasible egress points by people with firearms actually shooting at US military forces, I can't imagine a scenario where indiscriminately firing on US or any other civilians could happen by this military.



Tue, 04/06/2010 - 00:02 | 288023 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Unfortunately the question seems to be brought up more frequently recently (as opposed to never) and I'm afraid will become more and more relevant. Extremely unlikely yes, but I'm convinced anything is possible now.

And since this has now become a thread I'm not going to delete the post.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 02:19 | 288151 CD
CD's picture

"unless we were being attacked in a channelized area with no feasible egress points by people with firearms actually shooting at US military forces, I can't imagine a scenario where indiscriminately firing on US or any other civilians could happen by this military"... unless there happened to be a group of men walking from a few hundred yards away TOWARD a building whose rooftop had been spotted by ground forces as a possible source of hostile fire. (watch the full 40 min video).

The boys in the Apaches did NOT indiscriminately smoke a bunch of innocent civilians in the first half of the engagement -- but they did misrepresent the situation in requesting clearance to fire (6 hostiles with AK's), and they did not find what they were originally alerted to seek. The Iraqi group's bad luck to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (though if I could make out the body of the camera on a grainy YouTube that was mistaken for an RPG, you should also have been able to on a gunnery sight - you can count spots on deer from a few clicks at night).

What gets  me is lighting up the van (OK, I understand your points about never being able to know who was who, WTF didn't that guy mind his own fucking business and let the mofo bleed out all over the sidewalk -- that's what you're supposed to do, right?). Even if it WAS an insurgent vehicle -- what the fuck is the difference between taking out the van and just sending a few rounds in the back of the guy's head as he is crawling away, wounded?

Last, but not least, Crazyhorse 18 concludes its training video by firing 3 Hellfires into a building because they saw a man with an AK47 walk in. And some more people, unarmed. And perhaps some had been in there to begin with. Bystanders walking in the path of the missile, unaware, for 2 of the 3 missiles. Perhaps that turned out to be a clean, perfect surgical strike on confirmed insurgents and associated. Or perhaps there just did not happen to be any journalists in there at the time for anyone to raise a stink over who was or wasn't killed or maimed by the missiles.

Perhaps some members of the other branches of the military have a more relaxed sense of propriety when it comes to collateral damage than you. It's a bit easier to dehumanize targets when you only ever see them through the b/w virtual scope. No, not all or even most soldiers are like that. And war is about kill or be killed, so reactions should err in favor of survival. I just object to the view the since Baghdad is a war zone, anyone there should not be surprised at such outcomes. The dumbasses still living there by 2007 deserve what they get, for not having moved out to their vacation homes in the Hamptons while this 'situation' is resolved.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:07 | 288229 halcyon
halcyon's picture

I'm afraid he's in no position to assess the likelihood.

Research suggests he would, as would the majority of his comrades.



Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:28 | 288239 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

Bullshit. I know your type. I had to deal with them most of my life. I call them dogs. Why? Because of their blind obedience to the master. You are happy as long as you are being fed. Does not matter who feeds you. You will fight for them against your own. I will bet you 10 million dollars right now that, if the command is given, you would fire on your own countrymen, on women, on children on your own soil. Why? Because you are a dog, and dogs do not think; they react as being told by. Now fuck off.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 12:55 | 288667 Froggy
Froggy's picture

You know nothing of me or my "type", and your capacity to deal with people different from you appears to be quite low based on your spurious and haphazard conclusions that you have drawn from this video and this discussion.  You will never earn $10MM to bet against me in your lifetime.  You may have some $ from a trust fund, but I question your leadership ability to organize an effort in business or elsewhere that is likely to generate income on that level.  You lack creativity and curiousity and are content to fill your belly with all manner of conspiratorial pap in order to maintain your little psychological biosphere in which you currently live.  You have no close friends or relatives with military experience or you assiduously avoid engaging them in a relationship for fear that it would burst your bubble. 

I have clearly demonstrated that I am an educated man and perhaps many of my opponents on this thread have prestigious educational credentials.  What I have and none of you will ever obtain is a breadth of experience and the resulting wisdom that is yielded from it.  I have led people in crisis, I have held dying (from disease) children in my arms in African villages, I have plotted the deaths of evil men, I have started businesses, I give $ to charity.  That is who I am.  I make no apologies. 

My decryers here are weak, narrow minded, internet trolls who offer nothing of value to the society and are unlikely to ever do so.  Military service is no requirement of citizenship, but all citizens are wise to respect those who serve on their behalf.  You are surely entitled to disagree with the government's military policies, but the servicemembers themselves are entitled to your respect.  Withholding it is a sign of your moral bankruptcy, not a talisman of dissent or resistance. 


Wed, 04/07/2010 - 00:36 | 289245 CD
CD's picture

Not that this should really make a difference, but I believe Cheeky's take on war and warriors is strongly influenced by direct experiences with "soldiers" of an entirely different stripe, creed and character -- and there are some to whom such harsh judgement may justly apply.

I just disagree with some parts of your assessment, and am uncomfortably reminded of cops and "burners" with griptape on the gunbutt that sometimes are found on crime scenes of "perps" shot "assaulting the officer". While never in hot zones myself, I have worked for years with seasoned cav and infantrymen who spoke of the battle fever, and the difficulty in shifting gears/perspectives in different situations. Trained with "green" peacekeeping soldiers where on first couple of exercises of several groups, over half of the simulated unarmed civilians were engaged and eliminated.

Would that only those who know war firsthand be allowed to choose to wage it. But as that's not to be, nor is war going away, let's work on a bit more transparency and accountability in the reasons for wars. Projecting global hegemony and securing critical resources/regions is one thing, maintaining such a defense infrastructure primarily for the continued enrichment of a privileged elite and contributing to the exploitation of those without power abroad and at home is another. Blaming the troops is (in most, though not all  cases) unjust and counterproductive. In this case, I must concede that the Apache had 'reasonable suspicion', and the rest of the events follow from that. But I do urge you to look at the last 5-10 mins of the full 40-min, uncut gunner tape, to see the Apache's follow-on mission.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 10:00 | 288416 Hulk
Hulk's picture

"Firing on US civilians by the US military is such an impossibility that it saddens me to even be asked that question."

We, (brothers,cousins,second cousins ,all Marine grunts ranging from nam to afghanistan) have this conversation every couple of years. No way any of us would ever fire on US civilians. Absolutley out of the question. Agreed on the National Guardsmen comment

Good posts Froggy.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 00:47 | 288049 Cistercian
Cistercian's picture

 Left/right paradigm does not work so well here.You are among the educated, and most here don't fall for that crap.

 Calling me a leftist is hilarious.You have achieved an epic fail there.Look up what my avatar is.

 You being there means you were a participant, not that you have the slightest insight into the powers that sent you there, or what those powers want.The context?

 You have to be kidding.If you had any concept of context you would realize what your presence there actually meant.

 Get a clue.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:38 | 287768 Bryan
Bryan's picture

Buddy, give it up trying to defend the US Army - you're not going to win, at least not here on this blog.  Unfortunately this is turning into another VietNam, and the press will make sure the US is the bad guy.


By the way, Obama clearly is behind this war, since it's 1 year later and our troops are still there.  It's not Bush's fault any more, it's Obama's now, being Commander in Chief and all.  Clearly there is a reason we're still over there - he's just not going to reveal it.


And I thank you for your service to our country.  It's a scary and self-sacrificing job to do and you should be honored for your service.  Don't let these guys get under your skin - they really have no clue what the issues were and what/how the military works.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:26 | 287969 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Let me just point out that you compare one atrocious war to another.

Of course Obama is behind the war. What has changed?

The reason is oil. Where exactly have you been the last 20 plus years?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:28 | 287970 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Let me just point out that you compare one atrocious war to another. Of course Obama is behind the war. What has changed? The reason is oil. Where exactly have you been the last 20 plus years?

At least on this blog there is freedom of unmoderated speech.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:35 | 287982 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

i don't think you know how the military works, or you wouldn't have said that

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:12 | 288231 halcyon
halcyon's picture

Well it's a good thing the press might finally be catching up on their duties, eh?

US is the bad buy here: illegal invasion, hostile occupation, destruction of the country, 100k dead civillians, 2+ mil refugees, stealing of the oil riches, destruction of the cultural heritage and complete fall down of law and order. Not to mention torture, renditions, and kidnappings.

Yes, war is bad.

But so is going to war with false pretenses, staying under the same false pretenses and ripping a country off.

Trying to do PR damage control at this point for the US is an exercise in futility.

US may have won the war, but lost the battle of hearts & minds at large.

Such a pity that the gutless US news agencies will not run this news footage in the US.




Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:35 | 287872 fuu
fuu's picture

You're an errand boysent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill. There is nothing noble about that. Hang your head in shame.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:48 | 287894 Froggy
Froggy's picture

You're a funny guy there Colonel Kurtz.  You people make me laugh that your knowledge base is so thin that really all that you have are the last 30 years of Hollywood Vietnam War canards to hang your hats on. 


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:52 | 287691 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

We have not even begun to see what they are capable of....not in this country at least.

Again. Why are we there fighting a war that was never declared?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:33 | 287761 mikeyv1970
mikeyv1970's picture

Froggy,  Spot the fuck on.  I have halted gunfire because I saw goats.  Why?  Cause with goats are usually with kids and I will fucking DIE before I shoot a kid.  Most of the people who are raving about how the U.S. soldiers are over there killing civilians have no clue what we do.  When in a battle, I am a cold ass motherfucker and will shoot someone dead and LAUGH about it.  Why not?  it is called Dark HUMOR and it is unique to matter what your country of origin is. If someone is the enemy...have fun killing them I say! That said...  I have seen kids die just because they took candy and food from MY soldiers who would rather go hungry than let starving kids not have their food.  Wasn't us who executed those kids...take a wild many folks on here would say it was the US killing civilians. It was Taliban, AQ, or whomever happened to be in the AO.  After you see how kids are killed for taking candy and food from actually think we are going to show mercy?  Ha!

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:22 | 287953 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Your comment begs the question; why give the kids food if you know they are going to get killed for it?  If death is imminent and known by the giver of said food, then wouldn't the giver have at least some cupability? "wasnt us who executed those kids..." please say this isn't the "Dark HUMOR" you speak of; tonality via text is difficult to communicate.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:55 | 288014 Froggy
Froggy's picture

Nobody gives starving kids food knowing they'd be killed for taking it.  He's saying that AQIZ's depravity is such that they killed children for accepting food from Americans.  He is not culpable for that. 

We threw candy to kids everywhere we went as a sign of goodwill.  My wife and daughter collected dozens of little girls shoes (because everywhere I went they were shoeless) and we'd pass them out to the girls whenever we stopped somewhere.  Children hide behind US soldiers when bullets start flying because they know we will protect them.

You people amaze me at your interest in disparaging us for the sacrifices, danger and hardships we have endured for our country. 

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 02:45 | 289474 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Nother cool story bro. Roll video of them killing children for accepting food from americans. What's cool about it is that your part of an organization that firmly believes that if you lie enough an kill enough you can make everybody wrong and be the sole holders of righteousness. Then you get to do what you want when you want to who you want. I totally loved the story about the dudes killing kids for accepting food from you guys. It's just so awesome that you are part of an organization that's very careful and very responsible and very secretive and you wouldn't possibly bear false witness against anyone. Unless you knew you could get away with it.

So keep the faith. If you can't mind fuck em, kill em. Sorry if people aren't afraid of you guys much any more. I mean it's not like we've completely lost faith in your punitive precision. Maybe you could make some new movies where steven segal kills the evil oil guys out to hurt the poor defensless eskimos. Hollywood and maintream media will surely pull your illusion cloak back up so we can judge you "fairly" once again. Maybe you dudes could get your light workers to start a huge rumor about how this big alien ship is going to come make our government stop being bad. Or maybe get the churches to pull a big jesus is coming back so just relax and watch the new steven segal movie. You know you gotta get your moneys worth out of haarp. Electricity doesn't grow on trees.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:12 | 287916 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

Finally.  Someone on the board that has a clue.

These indignant commenters presume they've got it all figured out after watching a video edited with the obvious express intent to make US soldiers look as bad as possible.  Who put this video together?  Who edited it?  Who sponsored the production?  What's their background?  What are their motivations? 

For a bunch of guys that see a conspiracy at every turn you sure swallow this propaganda hook line and sinker.  A healthy dose of skepticism and a little more critical thinking is in order here instead of jumping to conclusions.  Engage brain before mouth.  The video was purposefully designed to enrage.

Were the entire story laid out we would likely find out these pricks who were wasted had killed US troops (ambush, IED) or were setting up an ambush.  Who knows?  The ground patrol was probably chasing them when the Apaches found them and took care of business.

What you should be asking is, "What's the rest of the story?" 

Those Apache guys are exactly the kind of guys I want covering my ass up when I'm on patrol.  


Tue, 04/06/2010 - 01:54 | 288143 Tethys
Tethys's picture

+1   Same questions ran through my mind as I watched.  Didn't see your comment before I posted below.

If I were more paranoid I might think someone wants to drive a wedge between the populace and the military.  And the militias and the police, come to think of it.  And the blacks and whites.  And the public and various organized religions, organized 'tea parties' or organized anything.  The ever popular 'left vs. right' doesn't quite seem to be doing it anymore.

Divide and conquer. Pieces moving more rapidly as the end game approaches.  

So glad I'm not that paranoid.  But the study of strategy is fascinating - even if one may find patterns where none exist.  Gotta pull some fun out of this clusterfuck.


Tue, 04/06/2010 - 09:11 | 288379 Bryan
Bryan's picture

Exactly my point in another post.  The edited propaganda video is working, unfortunately.  We're producing empathy pieces for the enemy.  AlJezeera already does that - they don't need help from our side, but thanks.

I supposed it's all still Bush's fault and he lied about WMD and if we're nice then they'll all just go away and leave us alone and America sucks, blah blah.  It's all so simple and easy to understand.  That argument is really getting tiring to hear.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 13:24 | 288704 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

George Orwell


"No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now"

Randy Newman, Political Science



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:01 | 287924 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Then I'm sure you would "light up" a place where the enemy might be hiding behind your daughter, your son, your wife, your mother.  And you'd accept the consequences if one of your fellow soldiers did it and not you, and it turned out your daughter was inside after all.

And when you went in to count bodies, and you see that the head of your young daughter was blown right off of her shoulders by a depleted uranium shell, you'd simply accept that it was unavoidable.  And if some size twelve standard issue boot just stepped on what used to be your daughter's face, you'd laugh along with everyone else.

I mean, it's war and one cannot always take the time to find out who might be innocently in harm's way.  Heck, if doesn't even matter if WE started the war.

Yea, war is hell.  We like to make it somebody else' hell, usually for people who don't look like us.  When it becomes your hell, maybe it will seem a little different.

If we thought Laura Bush was having lunch in a restaurant where we got "intelligence" that Saddam was hiding out (rather than the "intelligence" just coming from the restaurant's competitor), I'm sure we would have dropped three five hundred pound bombs on it nonetheless.  And if Obama's kids were possible hiking in the hills of Wazirastan and may have stopped for water in the home of a "high level target", I'm sure those joystick boys half a world away would still use the drone and "light up" the place.

Bullshit.  Little brown Moslem kids are "acceptable collateral damage", while our own children are "our precious future".

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 01:36 | 288129 Real Wealth
Real Wealth's picture

chindit13 played the race card, saying:

"Bullshit.  Little brown Moslem kids are 'acceptable collateral damage', while our own children are 'our precious future'."

The USA dropped DU bombs all over Serbia, with plently of little white Christian kids as collateral damage.

The other side has always "acceptable collateral damage." 

Something unique about Muslims is that their own kids are expendable:


Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:20 | 288236 chindit13
chindit13's picture

That some Moslems would put their children in harm's way does not give us the right to view Moslem childrens' deaths as "acceptable collateral damage" any more than you can go rape a white 10 year old girl because some Christian pervert's view of religion says he can marry an eight year old or because some (many) Catholic priests bugger all the altar boys in their parish.  Loving one's children is hardly a monopoly of either Americans or Christians.

What I'm calling bullshit is that we would never put our own loved ones at risk to the same degree we are willing to put some other innocent man's loved ones in harm's way.  Let us remember, WE started that war in Iraq.  It was a war of choice.  Yes, Saddam was a bastard.  The world is full of bastards, some of whom are our allies.  Had the US not attacked Iraq, we'd still be playing Little League baseball in Des Moines Iowa this summer.  The "mushroom cloud" warning of Cheney was pure bullshit, and Cheney leaning on the Agency to tell him what he wanted to hear rather than the truth was also bullshit.  Tenet was a political fuck more interested in cozying up to Bush/Cheney than doing what was right for the country, and Cheney played off that weakness.  Karma is Tenet selling six copies of his memoirs.  Karma for Cheney will be when that bum heart explodes.

Bush used to always say "the world is a better place without Saddam in it".  Maybe it is.  I've got a list of folks whose departure will also make the world a better place, but it isn't my business to make it happen.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 09:15 | 288382 Bryan
Bryan's picture

I think you're making the false assumption that everyone in other countries thinks like you do about their family, children, etc.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:41 | 288245 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

Oh do fuck off with that shit.

When NATO dropped bombs on Belgrade it targeted military and strategic positions and 0 children where killed and the total death toll was 528, 80% killed by non-NATO actions. Know what you speak about or forever shut the fuck up. Every building had a bomb shelter because bombs shelters were a standard adjoining "rooms" for all buildings being built during Tito's Yugoslavia. And 99% of the people were in those very same shelters when the NATO operation began. It has been widely reported all over Serbian news [as a part of Miloševic' propaganda] that NATO will strike and people were prepared as hell. And those who did die died because of their stupidity; i.e most of them were 20-30 year old football supporters who went to the streets and thought would make a difference or were just stupid as shit and started looting stores an what not during the strikes.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 03:34 | 288196 Rick64
Rick64's picture

Chindit +1000

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 20:54 | 287694 phgc691
phgc691's picture

 An M230 30mm round, according to NATO data, covers 1000m in 0.77s and 2k meters in 1.66s.  I measure the time to target as ~2 seconds. Those helicopters were around 1.5 miles away. The optics are incredible. One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Our occupation is illegal. There never were any WMDs. Everything Colin Powell said in his famous UN war justification speech was a lie. Imagine an occupying force in America doing the same thing to Americans. How would you feel about the invaders. The warfare state is flip-side of the welfare state.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:06 | 287714 Ungaro
Ungaro's picture

This war on terrorism is so confusing! In the video, were the terrorist on the ground or airborne?

All the discssion about the RoE begs fundamental questions:

  1. Who is the enemy? (Should be an identifiable force which can be overcome)
  2. What does victory look like? How do we win this war?

Lastly, one cannot fight a war against terrorism any more than against lies, deceit, cheating, corruption, or drugs. Terrorism is a tactic an enemy might use against us and it is not possible to fight (much less win) a war against a tactic.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:06 | 287720 kennard
Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:03 | 287819 kizzle
kizzle's picture

Thx for the link, unfortuantely the freerepublic is hardly a free discussion site.  i believe all comments are moderated and if a discussion doesnt fit their prozaced neocon view of the world it won't be aired.  too bad i happen to sympathize with some of what is discussed there.  borderline batshit coulter crazy.  they give tea partiers a bad name.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:27 | 287752 AUD
AUD's picture

These gun camera videos are nothing new, I've seen them on the internet for several years now. People being squashed like cockroaches with (what look like) 30mm explosive rounds, fired from helicopters. My 'favourite' is the one where what must be a missile is launched into a crowd of people walking up the road, followed by "Awww....duuude!"

As I once heard a Vietnam veteran say "Killing from a helicopter was easy".

Not totally one sided though, anyone seen the one where the Humvee is cracked in half by a bomb in a drain beneath the road? The fellow in the turret is launched like a rocket.


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:36 | 287765 legndofthefall
legndofthefall's picture


Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:39 | 287770 lsbumblebee
lsbumblebee's picture

I admire Glen Greenwald, but this sounds like a discussion on "How to behave when engaging in an illegal and immoral war".

Moral corruption as a result of war? I beg to differ. It's part of our culture. Why do you think most of our school children can't find a foreign country on a map? If they were educated they might get the idea that flesh and blood exists in another part of this world. But with enough unemployed, ignorant, video brainwashed zombies, we can keep feeding our most profitable industry of all.

"But the most extremes – the real horrors – of this war come with the primitive killer mentality developed in our youth. I've now seen a half dozen documentary films and read eyewitness accounts that reveal troops or pilots gloating over the massacres of civilians who just happened to be available targets.

Without doubt, the US has not only become the world's major power, it has become the world's sickest warrior state. Neither conscience nor empathy for others defines the qualities of the sociopath."

I guess you might call these guys a bunch of pussies:

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:14 | 288232 halcyon
halcyon's picture



Mon, 04/05/2010 - 21:46 | 287788 Mercury
Mercury's picture

"Wikileaks is absolutely heroic, because this kind of footage is seen all the time in the Muslim world, about what we are doing over there, and what the effect of our missions are, but it is seen very rarely over here... This is far from uncommon...What do you think the people who this video and the family members who are surviving, are going to think about the U.S. over the next 2 or 3 decades."

Without commenting on the actual events in this video I would like to note that Americans made a more or less conscious decision not to ever (or hardly ever) show images or video of the twin towers burning with bodies and still living people raining out of the windows.  I'm not sure the justification for that is reflected upon that much.  If 9/11 happened today would ZH show that video? Why or why not?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:24 | 287849 kizzle
kizzle's picture

post some and find out.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:17 | 287839 Goods
Goods's picture

Why do you need to invite someone from the CFR?

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:28 | 287854 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

For our military, a telephoto lens is just as if not deadlier than an AK47.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 22:49 | 287900 RocketmanBob
RocketmanBob's picture

So here are some JAM types preparing to attack a US column moving in their direction, and you want the air units flying cover to do what?

Get within range so it will be "a fair fight" with the JAM guerrilas?  Tell the column to turn tail and run?  Maybe warn them over a bullhorn to take cover because we're going to start firing?

To do so would be asinine!

The JAM fighters got what they bargained for. And as for the embedded reporters?  Well thats an entry for the, "if you lay down with dogs you get fleas", department.  They should not have made the faustian bargain to travel with our nations enemies; with those who would kill American GI's using weapons supplied in many cases by the Iranians directly or their proxies.


All I can say is it's a good thing the hand-wringing media types never got a hold of any of my gun-camera footage...

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 23:14 | 287945 Paladin en passant
Paladin en passant's picture

Here's a news flash for you bedwetters: war is hell.  Your moral preening is sickening. 

It looks as though Zero Hedge is becoming another DU or Daily Kos. What a loss for those of us living in the reality-based universe. 

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 01:31 | 287985 Tethys
Tethys's picture

Don't know much about war.  But I do know enough about life to know that it is easy to make judgements if you are not 'in the moment' and you have the benefit of hindsight. And judgement made without understanding the full context of the situation is often wrong.

Without the benefit of the little arrows and labels in the video (which the soldiers did not have at the time), I could easily believe that was a RPG.  And some of these guys were armed as is acknowledged in the comments by wikileaks.  And the kids were definitely not evident until afterwards.

For my part, I have respect in general for the military and thank those who risk the ultimate sacrifice for what they believe is right. The soldier does not get to choose the war.  There are bad apples in the military, as with any other human endeavor.  

If I had my way, people would not kill each other.  Probably I would not have designed a world where animals ripped each other to pieces for food on a daily basis.  Nature is not pretty.  Not saying I would have come up with a better creation - just that I might have gone a different way.

I would, however, like to point out to anyone who cares, some wonder at the timing and purpose of releasing this video (and the coverage around it, and more videos to come I am sure).  A number of institutions are under increased media attack.  Non-union companies like Toyota.  The roman catholic church.  Tea party. Militia who oppose the government but I am told they wanted to attack police to show it (?).  Will we now be adding the military to the list?  

Not really passionate about defending all of the institutions above, but more interested in determining if there is a pattern emerging. And always suspicious of the media.


Tue, 04/06/2010 - 00:12 | 288037 Thunderlips
Thunderlips's picture


Here's a news flash for you bedwetters: war is hell.  Your moral preening is sickening.

Spoken like some guy who lives in a climate controlled home on a cul-de-sac with a bucket of KFC on the table and SportsCenter blaring in the backround.  I won't be taking lessons in "Toughness" from Joe Suburbia just because he saw a lot of Charles Bronson movies.

I don't care that my repulsion at seeing unarmed men and a van full of kids get hammered with 30mm offends you.

And no, I see the military as a necessary evil, not something to be worshipped - and an all-volunteer army as an affront to American Tradition since Washington.  It allows the politicians to deploy it relatively painlessly and drag things on without a demanding public wanting a conclusion ASAP.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 00:44 | 288080 RocketmanBob
RocketmanBob's picture

I think you're confused; people have been volunteering for military service throughout the history of our nation.  Indeed, I volunteered myself after paying my own way through college with a string of blue collar jobs.  The Navy provided me with a career where I could make a difference, even after my vision ended my days as an Aviator.


What is the alternative, drafting reluctant or unwilling participants?  A practice resorted to only under the most dire circumtances?  While it may not provide the OUTRAGE! base for political check and balance that you seem to envision, I assure you that the all volunteer services provide a much higher level of professionalism and efficiency than a conscript force would.


And, I hate to harsh your mellow, but the politicians would still deploy the military when necessary; regardless of how the ranks are filled.


With few exceptions, Vietnam being one, wars are preferrably ended by defeating your enemies, and not by a shift in public opinion.  As easily seen by the events in Iraq, and the WOT in general, the opposition party out of power can easily demagogue a war in a cynical political ploy; such as declaring "the war is lost!", and, "The surge isn't working!"-regardless of the facts.


I spent a lifetime protecting your right to opine as you wish, but your observations regarding draft vs volunteer service are off the mark-with all due respect.  In fact most warriors would prefer that their talents go unused as much as possible.  But that said there are instances where it is unavoidable, and in those instances I wouldn't trade our highly trained all volunteer force for any other.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 05:46 | 288249 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

I love you man.



Tue, 04/06/2010 - 00:24 | 288057 Thunderlips
Thunderlips's picture

Which reminds me -- where's Osama?

I think we captured all 213 of his "Right hand Man" and "Top AQ Lieutenants"

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 00:46 | 288085 Malibu
Malibu's picture


Here's a news flash for you bedwetters: war is hell.  Your moral preening is sickening.  I am not living in a climate controlled home on a cul-de-sac, don't eat fast food and my lessons in toughness comes from three deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan (twice on the boat and once on the ground).  My knowledge comes from those events as well as my brother’s who has done two deployments in the Army in the same area of operations.    

I am not in full agreement with the way we have waged this war or why we are there, but the only difference between this one and all others prior is the access to information.  People sit here and make comments on the horror of what they are watching on the net and are appalled…you know what? The dudes pulling that trigger are as well but they do so because if they don’t pull that trigger eventually someone will be pulling it on them, or their wife, kids, or any other American. It is a cruel world out there my friend and it will always be, grow up and act rationally. 

Out of the thousands of years of written history how many years of peace have there been throughout the world?  I don’t know the answer but I would bet it is a significantly small number if there was even one year at all. 

I come here for financial information which is always informative and entertaining and enjoy the discourse of all the members, however in this situation many are not operating in reality and are letting their biases get in the way.  How come we do not apply that scathing analysis to the situation at hand?  The answer is because very few here have the full story and cannot assess the situation.  I have personally done missions and later have seen them reported in the MSM 180 out from what actually had taken place.  I ask you to apply you same skepticism to this video and the motivation behind it coming out into light. 



Tue, 04/06/2010 - 23:06 | 289333 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Cool story bro. It's just kind of strange that this all has to take place at the "nation" level and has to involve everyone with taxes and industries devoted to war and if you don't pay those taxes or involve yourself in those industries you're "unpatriotic"  or a pussy or not operating in YOUR reality.

It's just really wonderful of you to sit on the road in baghdad and kill civilians with hundreds of machine guns to remind them that it's a cruel world out there and you're the one making it. Because I sure wouldn't want those familes driving to my town and do something horrible like not die at the hands of a violent well armed sick fuck.

So do you mind if I don't pay taxes and rob banks that fund these armies. Or would that be wrong of me? So come on appeal to my higher self and sense of right and wrong while you won't operate in that reality. It's a great way set up a imbalance of power so you can have your reality without me getting involved in it in a destructive manner.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 01:08 | 288108 sweet ebony diamond
sweet ebony diamond's picture

If you attack Canada, we will fight back.

I just thought I would let you know.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 03:30 | 288191 Thunderlips
Thunderlips's picture

Sorry, protestations of Combat Service personnel don't work with me. 

Somebody was who was a refueler on the Armed Oiler USS Floyd J. Pflickerbach in 2004 and again the next year at some port in the Gulf States is just as unqualified to talk about combat as John Q. Civilian.   Now maybe there was a brown salad or two served, or maybe you had to pull alot of double shifts, but what that has to do with combat and "Toughness" - justifying the machine gunning of a civilian family in a van - I have no idea.

I'm only interested in what Combat Veterans have to say. 

The dudes pulling that trigger are as well but they do so because if they don’t pull that trigger eventually someone will be pulling it on them, or their wife, kids, or any other American.

Really, how many Apaches have been shot down? 

Is it illegal for Iraqis to bear arms?  Nope.  What identifying signs were there that they were "terrorists"?

Americans are not supermen, they are just people and so are their soldiers.  That's why we have checks and balances, courts, and procedures.  Some of them are just rotten, and some of them are saints, and some of them aren't really either.

I don't worship any profession, be it teachers, cops, bankers, lumberjacks - or soldiers.  Maybe firefighters only.

There may be a pass for shooting that crowd, but there ain't no excuse for shooting at civilians in a van who stopped to render Good Samitaran aid to a guy who is holding his guts with one hand and using the other to crawl to safety. 

You bet your ass if any of the van people they shot up had any terrorist connections, it would have been in the report to cover the brasses asses.  They couldn't find a damn thing.

Funny how people don't trust the government, but somehow the "Military is Different".  It ain't.

I remember that Air Force General who prosecuted enlisted men for having affairs even though they were in the middle of divorces from their wives, meanwhile he was screwing his enlisted paralegal staff.  They went to prison and got dishonorable discharges, he was forced to resign, with no loss of pension. 

Funny how a bunch of privates from West Virginia knew how to humiliate and torture suspects (not convicted terrorists), and schucks how none of our top-class 100% on the ball wonderful officers had a clue that it was going on, obviously as none of them were prosecuted.  A little off topic, but you get where I'm going with this.

And yes, most nation-states are at peace, most of the time. 

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 03:39 | 288200 Rick64
Rick64's picture

Well said.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 07:49 | 288309 ptuomov
ptuomov's picture

It's not so much that some soldiers screwed up.  You can't be expected
to be flying around on top of a city shooting stuff for seven years
and never shoot a by-stander.  They didn't do it intentionally, at
most they were sloppy.  If you keep doing something day after day,
you're going to eventually be sloppy.  I would.

On a small scale, my problem is that there's a coverup and lying to
the taxpayers financing this war effort.  Organizations cover up this
kinds of stuff regularly, especially if they are closed like the
military.  Luckily, there are some people inside that organization
fighting the coverup and leaking the evidence.

Stepping back a little further, given that one is in a war, it's not
always obvious that it's the wrong thing to do for a general to feed
people propaganda and lies, covering up shooting of journalists and
children.  If there's war that is justified and winnable, perhaps
coverups, propaganda, and lies is what you have to do to win the war
at a minimum cost.

The ultimate responsibility for these deaths belongs to the people who
lied to us to get us into this unjustified occupation in the first
place.  Putting civilians, children and journalists, in the line of
fire.  Putting soldiers in the position of accidentally killing
innocent bystanders or patriots defending their country.  Putting
generals in a position to have to spread lies and propaganda and to
cover up deaths of civilians.  Putting me in a position to defend an
indefensible occupation abroad while paying for it.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 08:15 | 288320 Tense INDIAN
Tense INDIAN's picture

forget this nonsense war...everyone knows its a about this :


both WW2 and WW2 were ZIONIST false flag...

1.To set up the UN for WORLD GOVERNMENT .2

2.To set up Israel.

how about it if i say that HITLER. Churchill , Stalin , FDR were all funded by the same people ( JEWISH central bankers and Wall street).

as an example , Max warburg , brother of Paul warburg ( Creator of the FED)...financed HITLER....well there are more mysteries

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 08:33 | 288334 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

I think it is fair to say at this point that the US Government is the REAL terrorist - indeed the biggest terrorist operation on earth.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 09:48 | 288403 Malibu
Malibu's picture

45 Helicopters have been shot down since 2003 Thunderlips.  Proving my point about your scathing analysis.  In the years of 2006 and 2007 attacks averaged around twenty a month.  

In addition if you read and understood my line about missions and news (which is hard to see how you could not) all my experience is in combat with a dozen Air Medals to prove it.  Look that up as well as all the other information you are lacking in your argument. 

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 23:51 | 289373 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Congrats on you're dozen air medals. I guess you should buy the Too legit to quit CD and play Can't touch this over and over.

You have awards. You're the epitome of legitimacy. You should tranform us all into you. Where do I pick up my blackhawk and whats a good way to increase it's ammo capacity because I just don't feel safe with only 750 rounds of high explosive 30 mm. I think  i need moar millimeters or more rounds.

Hey this one dude Alfred. He invented a way to safely work with explosives so you could kill people without being in huge danger yourself. If you use c4 1000 times without blowing yourself up do you get a prize?

I find it's really cool how you are able to let the people who pin medals on your chest judge you but won't let anyone else do it. It shows very clearly that you only respect the opinions of violent gangs and their acceptance is enough to make you feel like you fit in.

If you would do a search and destory mission on my english teacher for flunking me. I'll give you a gold star and pin a medal on your chest since you respond so well to positive reinforcement. Also I know alot about physics and medicine and shit bunch of stuff. So It's possible I could be a threat to you in the future so you better bring your whole gang over and just make me feel really bad about who and what I am with bullets and explosives. Because it's possible I could try to negoitate with you in the future and want to be right and you just need to knock me down a few knoches and make me feel as worthless as possible so you can take more and more from me. You keep up the good work. Calling the shots, being the big shot, shooting anyone who doesn't cooperate with you. I'm sure nothing will happen to ever allow you to be in a fair fight where you're in as much danger as your enemy. Because that's just not god's way. He's got some really good lies and tricks to keep that from happening.

So thanks for informing us about all the danger you guys were in while simultaneously sending other army trolls in here to brag about how many people they killed while we lost so few people.

I don't think I'm coming back to earth till there's a raping medal. I could get really horny for one of those.

Wed, 04/07/2010 - 11:59 | 289805 Thunderlips
Thunderlips's picture

Helicopters or Apaches?  UH-60s are not armored like Apaches.  And is that shot down or crashed from all causes, including maintenance issues and pilot error?

3 Apaches were shot down in 2007 from enemy fire.  I'll give you a source (the wikipage has links to articles), which you did not do:

In any case, what are you saying?  Because there is threat of a shoot down, just shoot any bunch of guys walking down the street?  I guess that applies to land forces.  See a group of people, just start shooting?

Reap -> Sow.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 10:05 | 288422 dcb
dcb's picture

I do not think kent state supports this view. One must also examine where the great majority of folks in the military come from and their culture.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 10:10 | 288426 dcb
dcb's picture

Folks, this is a very emotional subject and many have idfferent views. can we tone down the language. I realize it is the goal of many a troll to incite things, but really.

I find the video very disturbing, but having not been in combat how can I really relate. I see no offensive action on screen, butthe job of the copter piolet is to make sure his buddies don't get killed.


Once more the question has to be why are we wasting trillions there while we are cutting services here and can't balance the budget. I view this as the ultimate reality and our militray adventure there is weakening us, not making us stronger.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 10:26 | 288441 BoyChristmas
BoyChristmas's picture

Its all just demoralizing knowing what could have been built, or re-built, with those tax dollars. I tell myself and hear from many that yes it would have been great to rebuild education, health care, social services, infrastructure etc. but sometimes war is unavoidable. I agree.


I just see less and less evidence that this war is so necessary. What makes this video a tipping point is that some of these guys in the helicopters will never be able to come back to our society and be able to cope with their new reality. They are forced to live with their past and the question remains: was it necessary? While I don't pretend to know what they know, of course they think it was because you have to think that way...or else you will end up dead. You can't second guess yourself in war.

Tue, 04/06/2010 - 10:40 | 288458 been there done that
been there done that's picture

The video made it on to CNN today but of course they give the "official version of what went on over there" and of course stop short of showing the event itself.

Can I get a Whoa CNN, or a Whoa GE ???

Sat, 04/10/2010 - 05:28 | 294373 mark456
mark456's picture

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