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Ratigan On A "Theft Driven Derivative Economy Supported By Trillions Of Dollars Of Taxpayer Money"

Tyler Durden's picture


Dylan Ratigan sums it better than any financial analyst has been able to do so far: "giving people $23 trillion in taxpayer money, especially the banks, it makes their stock price go up."

And some observations on the Chairman's Moral Hazard Doctrine: "Ben Bernanke said he would print an unlimited amount of money, against the future of our taxpayer, that's why our dollar continues to collapse, to support the banks which is working pretty well."

Dylan: CNBC misses your optimism.

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Thu, 10/15/2009 - 15:53 | 100087 Veteran
Veteran's picture

Screaming at a wall

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:40 | 100299 Enkidu
Enkidu's picture

At least he's screaming...

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 11:12 | 100821 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The deadly derivative default cabal...

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 15:55 | 100091 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Can someone point me to a link that tallies up that $23T? I have heard it challenged other places; but being ignorant, I just want to verify it for myself.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:46 | 100164 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

ok, the Barofsky estimate came out in there any update since then? I mean, my gut tells me it's coming true, but is there some evidence or logic supporting the notion that the $23.7T number will be maxed out?

Thanks again

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 21:24 | 100459 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

What if the next 'lehman' is the United States of America?

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 03:31 | 100630 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

is that a rhetorical question ?

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 03:22 | 100628 Marla Singer
Marla Singer's picture


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:57 | 100253 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I can't remember where I read (about 6 years ago) what I'm about to present so call it my opinion. But the article was laying out the case that the cost to "fix" each major banking crisis since the "Year of our Fed" (1913) increases each time by a factor of 20. The article then went into detail about each major crisis and the "cost" to live another day.

So it seems fitting that the S&L crisis wound up costing $1.2 Trillion and this time around we are hearing $23.7 Trillion.


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:05 | 100263 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The argument against these numbers was that this was a "worst-case scenario" where everything melted down at once, but IMO that misses the point entirely. I don't see how anyone with a conscience could justify ANY business, much less banks and investment firms, having a $23.7 trillion line of credit on the taxpayers' wallet.

The fact that the Obama administration didn't strangle this in the crib is proof enough that they are bought off the same way the Bush administration was. Now that their hedge bet that unemployment would stabilize at 8% and they cold credit the "stimulus" for being the cause has been blown ot of the water, holding that line of credit in place to keep the stock market going up is all they have left.

Well, that and keeping their fingers crossed that it all doesn't come apart at the seams during the next 3.25-7.25 years.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 19:49 | 100379 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Personally I think Obama promised NOT to strangle this in the crib and that was why Obama suddenly jumped in the poles, had a lot more money and the media started kissing his feet.

Let's think about this. When did most financially aware people begin to see that this "crisis" was much bigger and potentially much more destructive then even we had thought it would be in late 2007.

I know I had been expecting serious problems since 2005 but it was very late in 2007 when I began to think it could go beyond my worse case scenario.

And when did Obama suddenly become a real contender to Hillary and when did the media start treating him as the next savior. I distinctly remember there was a thrust forward for Obama. Before that point, he was 3rd or 4th in line.

Come on people, help me out here. We all know Presidents aren't elected, they are made.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 03:34 | 100632 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

just read his unofficial biography and take note who was his first employer. nuff said ...

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 05:32 | 100649 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture


I know you're ahead of the curve. I'm trying to get other people caught up. To get them thinking. I've done a lot of research on Obama, including reading Webster Tarpley's unofficial bio, and Obama isn't what he says or appears to be.

As Webster says, the ultimate Manchurian Candidate.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 05:55 | 100653 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

yes CD i know; but you need to know that the Obama worshipers who see in him a reincarnation of Baby Jesus will say that we are crazy conspiracy theorist, and that Ariana Huffington is the source and stream of all knowledge. These fanboys are ready to die for him if he says them to. That is the scary part; he is their hero, their Jesus; but propaganda methods distinct him not from Hitler; and his Goebbels is Brzezinski. Unfortunately i will get flamed for expressing this, but i really don't give a shit. It is the truth.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 09:49 | 100739 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Then let them flame me as well because I agree. I've been watching him since his keynote speech at the Democratic convention in 2004 (I think that was the one).

I was watching his campaign rallies during the Summer last year and I watched very carefully the eyes and body language of many of the people attending. It reminded me of religious revival meetings, not a gathering of inspired political followers.

I come into contact with many followers of Obama and they simply can not see any flaws in their man. They are too emotionally invested to do so. I would say they are desperate to find someone to fix what's wrong with the world.

But here is the key. His followers want Obama to fix the country without them having to suffer at all. In fact because they are true believers, they should be rewarded for their loyalty.

I studied totalitarianism and appeasement in the world for the 30 years that led up to and surrounded Nazi Germany. The parallels are frightening. 

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 17:28 | 101329 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

who is it?

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 16:48 | 101281 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

I believe (seriously, I'm not making this up) it was after his meeting with the CEO of UBS and he was given their official seal of approval.

Then his polls really shot up....

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:11 | 100565 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

right....the 23.7t usd represents loc or promises
provided to myriad beneficiaries which if exercised
would lead to a total 23.7t....

it represents more potential unfunded liabilities....

at this point it appears unlikely that the full
23.7t will be drawn upon but we are still in the
depression and we have no idea whether more of that
money will be required....i think the most likely
estimate is 2-4t which is an enormous amount
of fascist funding for an elite group of banksters
with broken business models....

why should the taxpayer support fraud and incompetence?
he shouldn't and the people should take to the
streets and start lynching politicians and
banksters....the raping and pillaging is precisely
what the vandals, ostrogoths and other barbarians
did to rome...

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 21:38 | 100466 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

A trillion here a trillion there whats it matter? They'll make more ink.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 03:28 | 100629 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

combination of speed and acid does that ...

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:19 | 100128 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:27 | 100139 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Keeping it on the level.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 21:19 | 100454 Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh's picture

CB - read this today and thought it was something you might enjoy, if you haven't so far:

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 01:16 | 100603 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Thanks for this book link last week.

I finished it just now.
It has changed my perspective on the world more than "Atlas Shrugged" affected Reagan.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:56 | 100180 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

  OCC’s Quarterly Report on Bank Trading and Derivatives Activities
                                     Second Quarter 2009
Executive Summary
  •  The notional value of derivatives held by U.S. commercial banks increased $1.5 trillion in the second
     quarter, or 0.7%, to $203.5 trillion.
  •  U.S. commercial banks reported revenues of $5.2 billion trading cash and derivative instruments in the
     second quarter of 2009, compared to a record $9.8 billion in the first quarter.
  •  Net current credit exposure decreased 20% to $555 billion.
  •  Derivative contracts remain concentrated in interest rate products, which comprise 85% of total
     derivative notional values. The notional value of credit derivative contracts decreased by 8% during the
     quarter to $13.4 trillion.



Benny could end up printing a lot more than 23T, the banks create these dollars with side bets and "exposure" but the dollars don't really exist until something goes wrong and Benny bails out his criminal friends. Screw him, this is ridiculous.


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:45 | 100304 Joeman34
Joeman34's picture

Notional value is misleading when discussing derivative exposure as many trades are offset with opposite trades, canceling exposure.  Net exposure is the important figure and is a small fraction of the notional, though I don't have specific numbers to offer...

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 19:26 | 100335 MinnesotaNice
MinnesotaNice's picture

I believe notional value is pertinent because all derivative trades and their offsets are not going to be equally distributed throughout the system... hence the net exposure may vary widely between institutions... and if a big bank is loaded up on the wrong end of the trade it could be the domino that starts the cascade... and they all fall down... because clearly many have not set aside enough reserves to cover some of these derivative trades.   The spread between the notional value and net exposure of the entire system gives us an idea how likely it is the first domino could fall... and how quickly chaos could result.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:14 | 100566 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

exactly....while there is some merit to the
preceding argument your comments are the most
pertient because in a tbtf economy the worst
case scenario is highly life is
now affected by the corporate communism and
as a backstop for this these extortionist companies
i consider black swan scenarios the the most

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 17:07 | 101301 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

"..many trades are offset with opposite trades, canceling exposure.."

But the weak point to that comment is what happens upon a bankruptcy of say....Lehman Bros?????  Trillions of dollars worth of opposite trades, which now have not only NOT cancelled exposure, but have reintroduced the major risk!

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 17:12 | 101306 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

"Benny could end up printing a lot more than 23T..."

Great point, JohnKing, as JPMorgan, GS, Citi and Morgan Stanley have continued derivatives trading (of questionable value, etc.).  There will be a neverending glut of worthless CDSes, naked swaps, and on and on.....

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 19:11 | 100332 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Here's the source doc for that figure. I can't recall where the money table is in this, but it's in there.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 03:32 | 100631 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

page 138

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 16:50 | 101279 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

This is an incomplete list of just some of the Fed's free money/bailout disbursement funds (total equals approximately $13 trillion to $14 trillion):

1. Maiden Lane, LLC (I and II) For Bear Stearns bailout.

2. Term Auction Facility (TAF)

3. Central Bank Liquidity Swaps (CBLS)

4. Primary Dealer Credit Facility (PDCF)

5. Term Securities Lending Facility (TSLF)

6. Term Securities Lending Options Program (TOP)

7. Asset-Backed Commercial Paper MMF Liquidity Facility (AMLF)

8. Commercial Paper Funding Facility (CPFF)

9. Money Market Investor Funding Facility (MMIFF)

10. Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility (TALF)

11. Outright ownership stake in AIG

12. Numerous other "loans" to JPM, Citi and BofA after the Lehman Bros. collapse

13. Outright monetization of Fannie/Freddie MBS and debt

14. Outright monetization of U.S. Treasuries

15. Expansion of TALF to support Treasury/FDIC/Fed program to offload dead, toxic "assets" from banks.

This congress critter mentioned clearinghouses to "solve" the problem --- but these clearing houses (ICE US Trust) always seem to be owned by Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan, Morgan Stanley et al. --- peculiar how I don't find this a trustworthy solution!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 15:56 | 100092 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Pretty funny actually.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:02 | 100101 Sancho Ponzi
Sancho Ponzi's picture

It's real estate doom and gloom at the Huff Post. Is it me, or does their website look like it was designed by Ozzy Osbourne? 


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 23:05 | 100531 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It's not just you. Whenever I go over there my computer grinds to a halt. Too many widgets, links, popups, sales pitches; it tries to be the Fed of news digest sites, giving us everything we don't want. Drudge template (and Zed Hedge) is best - simple.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:02 | 100102 Whizbang
Whizbang's picture

Sorry to get off topic here, but denninger just posted this. Check it out!


If this stands a precident, this could result in some of the largest lawsuits in history. Also, it means that 50% of the feds balance sheet is worthless. GREEN ShOOts!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:17 | 100106 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

thats what I thought would happen. Long wouldn't change his decision now that things have gotten so much better. This is huge and I'm not quite sure what happens now that this decision is affirmed. I will surely piss off a lot of people and it isn't that certain that the ruling will be readily enforced. It has got to get appealed ...somehow. Anyways the law is the law and while we may lose valuable GDP points when we enforce it, it is still worth it for the stability and confidence in our economy ...and stuff.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:21 | 100132 Whizbang
Whizbang's picture

If I were a securieties attorney, I would be salivating like crazy right now. This means that literally trillions of dollars in securities were sold fraudulently to investors. It's crazyness.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:24 | 100282 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

This, or another similar ruling, will eventually make it's way to the supreme court. And I have little doubt that once it gets there it will be struck down because the supreme court understands who has bought and paid for it and where it's bread is buttered.

As crazy as that may sound, the supreme court has a very long history of siding with the government in times of great economic stress. Perhaps more importantly, it understands and supports our economic system and those who make (and benefit from) the rules. The supreme court is just as corrupt as the rest of American government.

When the rich and powerful have their backs against the wall, the supreme court has (and will again) supported them. The court will most certainly let individual or small groups of powerful people crash and burn but not the entire class. Won't happen. And a ruling such as this would hurt the class.

The only wild card here is if the powerful are able to completely off load these "endangered" toxic loan assets to the taxpayer. Then the supreme court will not over turn it, letting the taxpayer take the bath. Some engineered inflation will do the rest. 

The "supremes" as I affectionately call them have egos as big as you and I and they also socialize. And they don't socialize with the middle class but with the rich and powerful. They will not wish to be known as the ass holes who destroyed a couple of Trillion dollars of the rich and powerful assets. So much better to let the taxpayer pay the freight.

It would be very easy to rule against the lower courts on a technicality, forcing these cases to be settled. Years later, another case comes to the court and suddenly the court does the right thing and says "Oops, my bad."

Of course, Humpty Dumpty can no longer be put back together again but justice is eventually served. Except for all those who were screwed by their first ruling. Who says life is fair when you're poor, unemployed and have no power?

Welcome to the Banana Republic of the United States of America.


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:34 | 100295 Zé Cacetudo
Zé Cacetudo's picture

"off load these "endangered" toxic loan assets to the taxpayer."

Couldn't that be one of the (hidden) goals of dumping residential MBS garbage into the money market funds?

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 19:51 | 100384 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

My thought exactly when I read they were planing to mine the MM funds.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:25 | 100135 MinnesotaNice
MinnesotaNice's picture

Since there are very few funny things in this entire economic mess... I find this very humorous... I bet even Long chuckled a little bit to himself before he affirmed his decision... thank god for the judicial branch... it should be fun to watch the big players scramble and desperately try to but the 'shredded mortgage docs' back together... piece by tiny piece... :-) 

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:29 | 100144 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

The Orange County firms docs are already sold off to Russia and China.. Good luck for them!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:40 | 100156 MinnesotaNice
MinnesotaNice's picture

Is that true Layne (sorry... I'm with Cheeky... you'll always be Layne) ... if so that is even funnier... good luck with the paste and glue if you don't even have all the pieces  :-)

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:46 | 100160 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture


Full packet info ID sells for a buck a copy.  Did you really think New Century or Quick Loan Funding would pass this up going out the door?  Heck, Colonial, IndyMac, WaMu, Golden West.. The list is long.  First lose them to protect from fraud charges and this.  ROFLMAO X 10K +!

BTW, I dream of having that kind of amplitude, but I am just a humble writer of shady governmental/corporate happenings.  )

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:25 | 100214 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

MnN, besides, I can just imagine the hustle & bustle at JPM & WFC over who is holding the post merger bag.  I wonder if JPM remembered to have the FDIC retain it in the WaMu deal.  If not then the fallout could be sompthin'

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:01 | 100188 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

I may just be paranoid...indeed I know I am...but I still have wonder what else has been sold off to beyond our borders:

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:28 | 100142 chet
chet's picture

What are the practical implications?  That these people can't be foreclosed on?  If that's the case, then I wish my mortgage had been carved up and sold off.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:31 | 100145 Whizbang
Whizbang's picture

I believe that yes, it means the people holding mbs securities have no legal entitlement to any of the collateral promised to them by the "manufacturer"



Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:51 | 100171 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

There go the pension funds !!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:48 | 100155 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

and another implication would be that many mass. residents living on the edge now roll the dice and stop paying their mortgage and claim squatter's rights in their own homes. now sure about the whole mbs racket being legally declared a fraud since the finance lobby would never let this legal action permeate into the wider arena but who knows. technically I do believe whiz is right and that this is the case but know knows what happens in real life and how this is dealt with. It should be quite a show. many people could end up in jail...this could be one of the piece of a puzzle that makes up a rico case but Im not a lawyer so I can only dream.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 20:58 | 100443 deadhead
deadhead's picture

this is going to be very, very interesting to see how it plays out.  if judges continue to enforce the chain and wet signature matter, it will end up with the supremes in pretty short order.  that would be one hell of a decison to wait for.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 17:04 | 101297 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Proof of ownership:  they've got to possess the note or deed, depending on the vernacular of the district one is in.  No receipt, no sale!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:35 | 100223 Bear
Bear's picture

My nephew in CA bought house for 429k in 2005 ... it is now worth 279k and no buyers ... he has not paid mortgage for a year (he has friend that has not paid in three years) ... no forclosure; the banks cannot afford to foreclose and writeoff 250,000 and since in resides on their books at 429k thanks to FASB ... multiply this by 1,000,000 homes and wow what a mess!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:29 | 100292 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I got a bigger one. My Sister-in-law in Gold Canyon, AZ. 2006 bought at $ 1.6 million. Short sale offer last month, not accepted, at $ 500k . She had a first mortgage at $ 1.4 million !! Borrowed the $ 200k down off one of her rental properties' equity ( defaulted that one too ).

She hasn't made a payment in 11 months. No 30 day out notice. Bank says they're workin' on it.

I shoulda' seen a housing crash coming when somebody loaned that deadbeat over a million bucks.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 22:43 | 100516 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

These stories are everywhere. My sister owns 3 houses in Gilbert, AZ purchased in 2006 for ~$550k/each. Defaulted on all three over 12 months ago, recent short sale offers around $180k were also not accepted. Banks are in no hurry to do anything.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:19 | 100569 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

good ruling which is a huge rarity for mass....

this follows the kansas precedent which i hope
proliferates like rabbits across the states
before the fucks in the supreme court get
their evil hands on it...

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:03 | 100103 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

SCOTT GARRET OF NJ - Another deaf dumb and blind guy

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:10 | 100109 Gimp
Gimp's picture

Rep. Garrett's half comb over distracted me to the point that I did not understand a thing he said! They have many tricks on the hill.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:32 | 100148 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

You comb your hair to hide your lying eyes - Dave Matthews

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:11 | 100112 richardprice9
richardprice9's picture

"A jobless recovery".....what?!

10+% unemployment and collapsing housing prices = "recovery"

I think NOT.



Thu, 10/15/2009 - 21:02 | 100446 deadhead
deadhead's picture

if unemployment continues its upward rise (obviously it will), we will begin to hear the term "growthless recovery", lol!

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:20 | 100570 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

jobless recovery is more orwell speak by our
lying cia-fed controlled newsfakers....

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:13 | 100113 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Repost from another thread . Important update (apologies for being off topic - well, not really):

GLD gold bar registry is a FRAUD. Quote from the article:

on Friday, Sept. 25 – the list was 1,381 pages long

-    on Friday, Oct. 2 – the list was 208 pages long

-    on Friday, Oct. 9 – the list was 195 pages long

-    then, on Wednesday, Oct. 14 – after questions were being raised about the strange machinations with the bar list in chat rooms on the internet – the list was back up to 855 pages long.

Can somebody please explain to me how Gold stored by the world's largest Gold ETF is subject to such WILD swings in such a short span of time? The conclusion is obvious to anyone of sound mind - GLD ETF HOLDS NO GOLD. If you are holding GLD for any timeframe longer than intraday get rid of it IMMEDIATELY and get physical Gold in your personal possession instead. Remember Enron, Bernie Madoff, Worldcom, AIG? It's all good until it isn't. You have been warned. 

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:35 | 100153 uno
uno's picture

Thanks for the info, I just got into Sivr this past week since I never trusted SLV or GLD (I believe JP Morgan is the auditor).  Sivr has once a year independent audits and is in Switzerland, please correct me if I am wrong.  I trust them so far.

I wonder if the gold and silver dump today has to do with this type of info, hysteria when getting out of gld.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:39 | 100157 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

thanks for this, I'm getting out of GLD.

Sat, 10/17/2009 - 04:06 | 101858 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Out at 103...I think I'm satisfied with that. Now watch it go up to 200 next week.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:50 | 100168 VegasBD
VegasBD's picture

When it finally happens, saying "I told you so" will be so mean we wont even be able to do it. =\

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:59 | 100184 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 19:20 | 100345 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Read this about GLD posted in July by ZH.
It is kind of like paper gold.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:50 | 100170 uno
uno's picture

I would be interested in your take Gordon and also the community at large in the best place to invest in 401ks for precious metals.  Pool accounts - maybe the same game as GLD/SLV; AGQ - CFTC futures changes possible; GDX or mining stocks - possible dilution of stock, but also leverage to price.  I have decided on SIVR (they could change the Prospectus at any time), GDX, SLW so far.  I always imagined one day waking up and wondering WTF happened last night (when gold and silver go vertical).


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:55 | 100177 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

One possibility might be to roll it over to a firm that handles PMs, for example Euro Pacific. Would be interested to learn other thoughts as well.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:09 | 100197 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

There is no doubt in my mind that a majority of your portfolio needs to be in Gold at this point. That said, you don't need to put all your eggs in one basket while holding it. You can hedge the way you hold it by holding some physical in your possession, some in a bank locker (abroad if possible), and some with trusted third party allocated storage services like Goldmoney. Holding some gold stocks is also an excellent idea - preferably company stocks directly with stock certificates in your possession. I'll try to address this in detail in one of my future posts.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:19 | 100207 uno
uno's picture

Thanks faustian bargain and Gordon, I never thought about GoldMoney allocated.  I was considering getting Euros (I know it is fiat) only for the reason that the usd is going into free fall mode sometime soon and Euros would be accepted easily.

Do you trust APMEX, or the Canadian Mint for Silver Maples.  I was wondering about coin shows but can I trust what I buy?

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:46 | 100237 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Euros is certainly better than USD, but nothing beats the real deal. It's just offers a lesser rate of theft compared to the USD. For buying gold/silver in your own possession, APMEX is good. Jason Hommel is also nice. Here is the link to his website:

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:33 | 100294 uno
uno's picture

When I think of it, Canadian Currency is probably better than most all other currencies.  I could see Americans sneaking across the border to safety.

After the Internet bubble, housing/credit bubble, federal reserve money bubble, treasury bubble, hard assets are going to be the 'WHOSE YOUR DADDY' type bubble.

Look forward to your articles, good luck everyone.  Assume crash position.

Sat, 10/17/2009 - 04:08 | 101859 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Another position Schiff recommends is foreign commodities, in particular Canadian energy. Must be all that Tim Horton's consumption up there.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 22:51 | 100520 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Another option, which is what I did, was take a loan from my 401k (typically allowed up to 50% of the account balance), which I then put into precious metals that are currently in my possession.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:55 | 100175 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Looks like GLD is on shaky ground. Glad I sold it off last month. I'm still buying physical for the long haul, but I'm waiting for another bump down. Hope it comes soon.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:57 | 100182 Daedal
Daedal's picture

Thanks GG!

I believe there was/is similar problem with SLV ETF (multiple instances of bars being listed).

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:29 | 100216 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Oh my god, it's all coming together. See the big JPYUSD golden triangle and the squeeze that is about to end. The squeeze in gold, euro. Pound reacted today with "no news" other than the one above. AUD, CHF just going stronger. Here we go!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:54 | 100247 Bear
Bear's picture

I just bought GCZ9 ... now I'm starting to make investment decisions based upon ZH ... woe is me!!!

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:25 | 100575 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

i was going to post this kirby article but couldn't
find an appropriate article.....

i can only repeat what i said previously - gold
is in severe and permanent backwardation.....

act accordingly....

trace meyers has pointed out that agreements of
gold etf do not permit inspection or verification
that their faux gold holdings match any purity

what the boe used to backstop lbma (and couldn't)
last month
is leftover meltdown coin bars from the usa of the
1930s which were conveyed to the uk as part of
the london gold pool program of the 1960s....

someone's slip is showing...with a huge snag
about ready to unravel....

default on a major gold exchange has occurred....
and surprise! there is no news on it....

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 17:20 | 101316 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

If this isn't an actual rhetorical question, and you're really inquiring --- it is because ETFs, and ETNs, are used as leveraged speculative instruments to affect the price swings.  Masters at doing this are JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs, sometimes working in conjunction with Deutsche Bank.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:12 | 100114 MinnesotaNice
MinnesotaNice's picture

Go Dylan go...

"When you take all the capital of the nation and use it support broken businesses like our banking system which makes money by basically selling crooked insurance policies..."

I wonder if he gets any flack from the powers that be at MSNBC?


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 21:07 | 100451 deadhead
deadhead's picture

i doubt it minn...ultimate proof might be olbermann, maddow.  i think ratings is the only thing that counts at msnbc and there typically is no money/markets discussion, mostly politics.  immelt knows that GE is safe there. 

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 21:23 | 100457 agrotera
agrotera's picture

If the privatley held federal reserve goes down, Ratigan will be their ace in the hole to show that they were truth tellers all along...

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:16 | 100120 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

The largest robbery of all time, in broad daylight! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:18 | 100125 richardprice9
richardprice9's picture

If it weren't for Mr. Ratigan, MSNBC's ratings would rival those at CNBC (which suck).

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:19 | 100127 Sqworl
Sqworl's picture

Stop with the lies, unemployment nationwide is 27%.  Furthermore, the employment sites online are frauds.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:20 | 100130 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:21 | 100131 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Looks like someone in the MSM needs to give Dylan a Happy Pill...

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:26 | 100138 MinnesotaNice
MinnesotaNice's picture

... to be washed down with a healthy dose of MSM Kool-Aide.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:25 | 100136 Gimp
Gimp's picture

The only employment available on-line is "yes" pretend to be an employment service! No real jobs out there just a lot of web-sites dedicated to helping you find a non-existent job for a fee of course. I had one offer me their services for only $5,000 worth of career counseling, no guarantee of finding me a job but they promised to make me feel good???

I agree the real unemployment rate is close to 20% nationwide. No one I talk to even takes notice of the "governments numbers" which concerns me that the people are starting to believe the system is broken.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:46 | 100165 Sqworl
Fri, 10/16/2009 - 17:30 | 101331 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

I think you may be overly optimistic here, Gimp, in the case one compares payroll data over a ten-year period, unemployment really looks between 30% to 34%.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:25 | 100137 Gubbmint Cheese
Gubbmint Cheese's picture

From CNBC - 5 stocks make up 1/3 of Dow's run since March...


this market is a joke - heading to Vegas (sitting at the airport at Yvr right now) and can't wait to see the absence of line ups at the lobby.

Better my ass.


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:33 | 100150 Fritz
Fritz's picture

Dylan keeps slipping the phrase "Vampire Culture" into his dialog.

I am waiting for him to just start referring to GS as "the Squid"

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:27 | 100578 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

if he doesn't mind his talking points he will
find himself out of a job....

it's good while it lasts....

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:34 | 100152 Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Dylan continues apace.  I am waiting to see if this is tokenism or if there might be a serious attempt to corral the monster.  Inquiring minds would like to know.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:45 | 100162 phaesed
phaesed's picture

Wow, so we printed twice the national debt for these banks and then they skip payments.




I say buyout America.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:48 | 100167 john_connor
john_connor's picture

Go Dylan! 

I called my congressman's office today and gave an earful.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:54 | 100174 Gubbmint Cheese
Gubbmint Cheese's picture


Do TPTB not realize that when the American public finally twigs as to whats going on.. there will be (or more accurately could be) absolute chaos? The blow back of all this could easily turn quite ugly imho.. Wall Streeters and politicians hanging from flagpoles kinda stuff.. do they not get that? Having a few zillion in the bank means nothing if there's a pitchfork toting crowd trying to get at you. Just look at history -

I hope it doesn't go that way.. Lord how I hope it doesn't... but if they keep up this pillaging.. there will be chaos.

Think about the end game Wall Street... use your head.

Stop with the bull

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:49 | 100240 chet
chet's picture

There will be Blackwater paramilitary troops guarding Wall Street if it gets close to that.  The wealthy can easily dominate us indefinitely.  They just offer politicians a choice:  you want some of this money, or do you want to be one of the little people?

What scares me more than general chaos is the powers that be simply consolidating their power and making it official.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:31 | 100579 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

that is true as long as american behave like
sheep and continue to obey their overlords as
they are indoctrinated to do in university and

if americans were to rise up en masse in
multiple points of protest they could overwhelm
the police state....

also, if wall street gets to the point where it
needs blackwater their fortunes will tumble....

of course a strategic bullet placed in the heads
of certain rockefellers and rothschilds could
effect much needed reform....

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:00 | 100187 Bear
Bear's picture

Where is Elliott Ness when you need him ... These New York vampires with their Chicago thugs in Washington ... FBI please help us out!!

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:07 | 100194 crzyhun
crzyhun's picture

No matter what Mons Rat says, it is all show mere stage acting. Sorry.

Second, the only pure bullion and silver play is in a closed end fund. I will leave to you to find out which one.  

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:08 | 100196 Michael
Michael's picture

Wall Street and the banksters are buying up every asset in site for themselves with taxpayer money and guarantees. Nathan Rothschild did pretty much the same thing in England just prior to the news of the winner at the battle of Waterloo, he had insider information on the winner. I think this is correct.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 17:24 | 100211 rhinotrader
rhinotrader's picture

Dylan is excellent. I need  to start watching him more instead of having CNBC on mute.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:01 | 100257 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The question I pose:

Is how do we (the people) get our country back?

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 19:56 | 100388 Johnny G.
Johnny G.'s picture

Atlas Shrugged.  Stop participating.  It will collapse eventually.   Don't employ anyone, don't pay health insurance, workers compensation or payroll tax.  Reduce your taxable income to the point that you cost the State more than you produce.  Don't shop at the Gap or go to malls.  Drop out.  Incidentally, I've done this since 1995, and I really thought November 2008 was it.  But it wasn't.  I may be dead before the change comes, but I'll know I didn't do anything to help the theives.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:34 | 100580 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture


i would add organizing mass protests especially
at local congressional offices - not d.c.

the tea parties were excellent ideas....they
need to be expanded and made more regular....

vote against any incumbant or any challenger
who voted / favored tarp....

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 15:19 | 101142 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

May I suggest "Revolution Blues" from Neil Young's On the Beach album...

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:02 | 100259 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

This link was posted on another ZH thread. One of the finest things Ive read lately, it's called "THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST LED AMERICA OFF A CLIFF". Please forward it around.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 18:44 | 100302 Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

I read this op-ed today and after I thought about it, and the people that I know, I gotta conclude that it really does explain alot. I can't disprove it.

Wall Street Smarts


Thu, 10/15/2009 - 19:01 | 100321 Douglasnew
Douglasnew's picture

One day the average Joe will get up and scream, "I'm not gonna take it anymore!". And then it will be too late. Janet Tavakoli and Dylan Ratigan for President & V.P.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 21:06 | 100449 agrotera
agrotera's picture

Garrett said it was OTC's fault for not telling the financial products division that they needed a little collateral...I thought he was a good buy, but either he is stupid or he is just another crook....he failed to mention that even though the OTC didnt' see th problem, they failed, and we shouldn't be bailing our failed is bankrobbery of the US Citizens....

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 21:46 | 100471 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

Dylan is on top of this thing.  I dig this, big time.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 22:10 | 100495 Cursive
Cursive's picture

The closest we've come to a Howard Beale moment since GDII started.  I think it's going to heat up from here.

Thu, 10/15/2009 - 23:55 | 100559 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

after the first two minutes i was stunned that armed thugs with ak-47s didn't burst onto camera and shoot this guy down with in a barrage of metal....

what magnificent honesty - corporate communism.....perfect phrase to compliment carpet bombing liquidity....

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 00:27 | 100576 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Dylan Ratigan is the real hero of Journalism. Its amazing to see his guts to take any politician.

Fri, 10/16/2009 - 01:47 | 100612 time123
time123's picture

Dylan was the best on CNBC because he said it exactly as it was throughout the crash. He continues to do an excellent job at MSNBC. Worth listening to him all the time.



Fri, 10/16/2009 - 03:12 | 100626 mannfm11
mannfm11's picture

GE is a prime beneficiary.  Hard to believe he still has a job. The entire stock market can be bought for about $13 trillion.  80% of GDP was a historical peak for equity value.  Now above that again.  SPX worth about $9 trillion,roughly 70% of total value. 


Banks aren't making profits.  They are cooking books.  S&P has already developed a CDS indices.

In any case, $23 trillion is about $80K per person.  It is also over 150% of GDP.  It is also keeping a lot of big time political contributors out of prison.  You might do some research on the contributors to Christopher Dodd, as it is pure Wall Street. 

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