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The Reason Why Greece Is Pissed, Or They Don't Call It The "Misery Index" For Nothing

Tyler Durden's picture





 

A day ahead of the general Greek strike coupled with major Parliament blockade protest, it is useful to remember just why it is that Greeks are so pissed. Well, besides the obvious increase in the retirement age from 61 of course. So below it is in chart format. While we previously presented the UK "misery index" which back in March hit a 20 year high for the first time, here is the same appropriately titled index for Greece. And if the UK is at a 2 decade "misery" high, then Greece is roughly at a 10 billion year high. It really may all be uphill from here... Unless of course the Greek population decides it is happy with the status quo.

via John Lohman

 


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Tue, 06/14/2011 - 21:58 | Link to Comment edotabin
edotabin's picture

Pissed Bitchez!

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:27 | Link to Comment SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

Very bearish for tunnels, bullish for flamethrowers

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:29 | Link to Comment markmotive
markmotive's picture

Niall Ferguson on Greece's potential default: http://www.planbeconomics.com/2011/06/14/niall-ferguson-100-certain-gree...

 

It doesn't look good folks.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 03:34 | Link to Comment Reptil
Reptil's picture

Now or later, there will be settlement. A small fish like Greece, even if it grew spines with adding 13 or so CDS to it's assets, can be swallowed, by bigger fish. Better now (first pinguin always makes it past the sealeopard (or not?!) than in a year or so. (better for the greek that is ..)

As far as the banks here, well... they did 2 bank tests and everything was ok, according to them. Enough reason to (try to) pay out bonusses, and take on more risk in the past year. So you can see this as a "real life" bank test. Fuck em. Unhealthy companies as the dominant model is bullshit, IMHO. So is adding private debt to public accounts when the SHTF, since that would mean handing in the keys, and become serves too.

Pampering over the gap will not work, it's useless to try, so is it in most/all other cases... Brace yourself, it's gonna be a hell of a ride, and there be pissed bankers, that put on war colors.. and will try to kill our economy (abillity to grow out of the debt) or do a DSK on some, and as a last (or first?!) resort; will blow themselves up.

I'm now convinced they will lose in Europe, if we keep this line, and go down in flames. There's going to be a lot of collatteral damage. It's crucial, when at war, to minimise exposure IMO. But europe will be the first pinguin that always makes it. Like Greece but then on a global scale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3RElQWsh34

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 04:25 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

Didn't watch the video, but heard what you were saying.  Thank you. 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 05:23 | Link to Comment Weisbrot
Weisbrot's picture

they are just taking it like a Greek, and we aren't that far down the line to becoming a Greek style tragedy ourselves........

Thanks Corrupticians.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 06:42 | Link to Comment Bokkenrijder
Bokkenrijder's picture

Long tear gas!

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:01 | Link to Comment monopoly
monopoly's picture

Why don't they just tell the banksters to f___ off.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:13 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Before they can do that they must write off your pension funds and other freebie health care unemployment benefits etc. The subsequent crash in bond markets will render all companies that have a pension funding requirement insolvent bringing stock markets near to zero as well. Then you can write off any equity that you think you have in your house.

Before they can tell the bankers to fuck off, they have to tell you to do the same, unfortunately...

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:22 | Link to Comment lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

But that is going to happen anyone.

The issue with respect to restructuring isn't "IF" it is "WHEN".

And so the choice is now, and let the recovery start tomorrow. Or a slow bleed over the next year, and then restructuring.

The thing is if it happens now, the banks suffer more that 12 months from now. As does the ECB, which holds what $50B in Greek bonds. If you wait 12 months the people suffer more.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:26 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Absolutely right, we should have done this in 2001. I don't have a pension by the way, neither do I rely on state benefits of any kind, I pay to educate my children and I buy my own medical care as and when I need it.

The sooner this system is gone the better, in my view...

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:15 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

What did you do today ya dumb ass hat?

Oh, don't have, don't take, pay it all by myself biatch.

I smell pants on fire. I call you out, sir.

En garde monsieur chein!!

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 03:44 | Link to Comment Reptil
Reptil's picture

Oh look, it's got a nose-ring! How convenient.

Fiat currency systems always reverse to a more stable state. The trick is to not have some sort of asset transfer, and be self-reliant. There's always going to be money of some sort, and it's hardly the end of the world.

Dutch, german, french, italian, spanish, portugese, english and many more populatition majorities say "no". They might have a limited idea what that means, but they know they're fucked regardless of their descision, and still have power to stop the system in it's tracks. So that's why there's going to be settlement soon.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 04:31 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

Actively negotiating a little social contract, bitchez.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 08:35 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Ben Fleeced,

and this gibberish means what, exactly...

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 10:38 | Link to Comment Freddie
Freddie's picture

There are a lot of delusional posters here who think all the problems are solved by "screwing the bankers."  I hate em too especially Goldman Sachs who helped hide Greece's indebtedness.

The Greeks, especially the leftists, think well paying govt jobs or lush welfare benefits are a birthright.  Just like Fed, state and local govt union workers in the United States. The USA is in far worse shape than Greece.  See Calif and Illinois for a start. Greece wanted Germany's standard of living including the toys (Mercedes), long vacations, nice houses and all the benefits.  Greece makes what? Olives?  Some shipping.  So they gorged on debt and the Greeks had a party and the party is over.  They are as fault as the bankers especially the left that thinks endless welfare is a birthright.  F*** Em.  

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 09:53 | Link to Comment Incubus
Incubus's picture

"It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything."

 

"Only after disaster can we be resurrected."

"This was freedom. Losing all hope was freedom."

 

 

"For thousands of years, human beings had screwed up and trashed and crapped on this planet, and now history expected me to clean up after everyone. I have to wash out and flatten my soup cans. And account for every drop of used motor oil. And I have to foot the bill for nuclear waste and buried gasoline tanks and landfilled toxic sludge dumped a generation before I was born."

 

Add debt government debt to that quote, too.  Fuck what the fuck oldasses ran up.  It's about time for a goddamned reset.

 

"I wanted to burn the Louvre. I'd do the Elgin Marbles with a sledgehammer and wipe my ass with the Mona Lisa. This is my world, now. This is my world, my world, and those ancient people are dead."

 

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:08 | Link to Comment macholatte
macholatte's picture

Have they been drinking too much?

Beauty is in the eye.......

pissed [p?st]

adj
1. Brit, Austral, and NZ slang intoxicated; drunk.        2. US slang annoyed, irritated, or disappointed
Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:23 | Link to Comment anti Oligarchy
anti Oligarchy's picture

British version is best - especially when spoken by a hot Brit

"C'on let's go get pissed"

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 06:43 | Link to Comment speedy
speedy's picture

Pissing the night away, pissing the night away...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAM9diIDHqs&feature=related

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 06:55 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Drool, slobber, nuzzle!  :>D

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:14 | Link to Comment wombats
wombats's picture

Can you present this chart for the US?

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:18 | Link to Comment omi
omi's picture

CME! Can we have some futures for this?

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:22 | Link to Comment Parth
Parth's picture

Its expected that a large perceentage of population in US will have to work into their 80s. 61 retirement age? Germans will not bail them out. Some Greek friends of mine also noted that people really do not work that much before retirement anyway- something like "take it easy". Haha.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:21 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

Kinda like the faulking Italians who go on strike for three weeks culminating in contactual three week summer vacation?

Non productive Americans like this. Facebroke it!

 

 

 

 

 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 02:10 | Link to Comment hpro123
hpro123's picture

Parth,

all I can say is that a percentage of the greek population already works in their 80s... and please, tell some of your "greek friends" to quit noting and chatting and start working instead. People? As in all of them? Almost all of them?

What about the 20+ % that are unemployed for the past 2-3 years and are desperately seeking some/any form of employment? What about the seveal engineers I have met at "Continuous Education for Advancing your Career" seminars (not free) that make good use of their education by Delivering fast pizzas? Please, do not oversimplify things, it is way below what ZH standards should be.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:20 | Link to Comment LosersAverageLosers
LosersAverageLosers's picture

i am a buyer of greek employment + inflation at 17%

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:22 | Link to Comment JustACitizen
JustACitizen's picture

I am just glad that they are setting an example. I don't care whether they retire at 61 or not - I just want to see some members of the banking executive suite hurling themselves out of tall buildings. It would probably be too much to ask to watch them being hurled out of the tall buildings...I suppose. Perhaps the politicians though...

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:42 | Link to Comment Parth
Parth's picture

Well I am not supporting the banksters, but they(Greek civilians) are a poor example. Just sell it to the German population and I think you get the idea. 

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:18 | Link to Comment JustACitizen
JustACitizen's picture

So - you think that the Greek government would be selling to the German population? More likely they would be selling it to the International Rentier Class who would use the German people's money to purchase the assets and then charge the German people to visit "their property".

Right now I am a big fan of the citizens of Iceland and I may yet become a big fan of the Greeks - we'll see how this pans out.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:37 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

It's hate the German people for advancing their interests.

I smell pre WWI predjudice and fear.

Let's build a dirigbible for the USA!!

 

 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 05:49 | Link to Comment A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

"More likely they would be selling it to the International Rentier Class who would use the German people's money to purchase the assets and then charge the German people to visit "their property"."

You're 100% correct.  The foreign taxpayer provides cheap loans to repay the private sector debts at a premium to fair value and in exchange for this, the Greeks sell off assets at fire sale prices to the rentier class, who then make massive profits.  The classic example was the Cochabamba water company in Bolivia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Cochabamba_protests


Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:20 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

It seems to me that the Greeks are complaining because they haven't enough freebie welfare. How can anyone support this?

Fact is it will get a lot worse before it gets any better, before people realise that they have to work for their keep in the real world...

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:37 | Link to Comment JustACitizen
JustACitizen's picture

Just because I am against the banksters - does not make me a fan of social welfare. The fact is that when you lend money - you take risks. You take the risks for profit. Sometimes you make - sometimes you lose. It is supposed to be your judgement/contract/due diligence etc...that is the difference between a tidy profit and a loss. We have an entire generation of banksters and "financial engineers" who believe that they are entitled to a profit. Now, who else do we know that feels entitled to something for nothing? What regard do you hold those people in?

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 00:41 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I couldn't agree with you more, I think generally speaking those who are against the bankers are against social welfare. Face it the two go hand in hand because it's the way the system is sold to the populace; we need banks to buy debt to pay for these benefits.

To be blunt, I do not come from a wealthy background and without this system of debt sales it is debatable as to whether I would ever have been educated at all. Same applies to many westerners educated and kept healthy by the state. Certainly the British are one of if not the most inventive nations on earth, but one must question how inventive we would have been without debt sales to the empire, how much money we would have been able to commit to these ideas with less money in circulation.

I understand that any fiat system, just like a ponzi, has a lifespan and that span is now over. We  now must go back to a gold standard before we can embark on the next system of fiat that we all ultimately desire if the truth be known. It is a cycle that has run it's course, this time around.

Our choice is to default now and take a hit on our assets today or bail out and default later taking a hit on our assets with a commensurate drop in currency values. Most decent folk understand that we should default now because by devaluing money later, those at the lower scale of wealth starve also.

I believe that what I see today is a vain attempt to recover a terminal systemic decline. Where I seem to differ from most is my belief that this is a desperate attempt by politicians to not face up to the problem that is being benefited from by bankers. That is not the same as bankers conspiring to steal taxpayer money. Governments need to sell debt; banks buy government debt; banks need to be bailed out or governments can't sell debt and collapse in default. Governments in default can't provide free education, welfare etc. Citizens riot.

Greeks complaining about austerity don't seem to understand that the system is over until it can be reborn again from a new system built atop sound money. But then why would they? They've been lied to all along by socialist politicians who told them that the system was sustainable. They don't seem to be complaining about banker bailouts, they are complaining about a lack of welfare...

'What regard do you hold those people in?' None, I have no feelings either way. If I have a complaint against anyone it is against governments globally that conspire to reduce currency values rather than write off non existent wealth.

Without these same bankers we despise I would probably not have been educated. In the same way without the system's collapse I would not have benefited to the extent that I have from the rise in gold and silver. It is a pity the system had to end for me to benefit so greatly but then the system's end is inevitable, it's not my fault.

In the same way as bankers are benefitting from the bailout I am benefitting from the inevitable rise in gold and silver, which is a direct consequence of what the bankers are doing...

Should I hold them responsible for my rise up the social wealth ladder? Yes, obviously. Should I despise them? Yes, but for reasons other than those mentioned in this post...

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 05:59 | Link to Comment A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

The Greek trades unions cannot be so stupid as to think the current situation is sustainable.  My experience in Greek business tells me that the trade union leaders are just as corrupt as the bankers they rail against.  In fact, in a lot of deals, the trade union leaders get money in brown envelopes or put in offshore bank accounts.  I suspect they are orchestrating these protests in order to protect their personal positions (either more money or promises that their secrets will remain secret.)

Why anyone in their right mind would want to invest in this sort of system (via privitization) escapes me.  I suspect the German government have spoken to Deutsche Telecom about their experiences with OTE, which has been an unmitigated disaster, and realized there is no hope of making the situation viable without a root and branch change to the culture of cronyism and corruption.  To date, the Greek authorities have failed to meet every target, every promise, so the present value of future promises must be close to zero.

Add to this, banks did not price Greece risk on a stand alone basis (they were well aware of the reality of the situation), but rather on the basis that the Eurozone tax payers would have no choice but to intervene.  Therefore, why shouldn't they share the burden of restructuring?

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 07:49 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I too suspect that Greek politicians know they must ultimately default, and that they are under considerable pressure from the EU not to do so because of the consequences of that default.

Question is, 'who do the Greek politicians represent, the Greek people or Europe, and at what point can the reply that Greeks better interests are in staying in Europe override issues of national sovereignty?'

My view is that it is treason, pure and simple. Greek politicians should represent the Greek people and to hell with all after, and the best way to represent the Greek people is to tell them in no uncertain terms that the gravy train is over. period.

 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:38 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

History has shown that Greece was a folloer of the Puritan ideal.

Focus on the US. Your mental only efforts would be better served.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:58 | Link to Comment hpro123
hpro123's picture

Harlequin001 ,

most of your posts here are rational and well thought out... however, you seem to partially suffer from the same MSM disease tha a lot of ZH regulars also suffer.

Operative phrase in your post above is "SEEMS TO ME". As you may have figured out by now, seems often deviates from reality.

~80% of the Greek workforce, myself included, do NOT work for the Government. This 80% does NOT get raises, does NOT retire at 61 or 41 or whatever and definitely does not get "freebie welfare"!!! This 80% is already operating under the assumption that it will never retire...

Engineers in Greece had their own Social Sec/Medical Fund that has now been merged with almost every other Fund there is for sans State and Private Employee fund. In 2007 our fund supported 1 retiree for every 6,75 working contributors. In 2010? 1 for every 10.4 still working.

Free welfare? Just a brief intro to "free welfare" for the employeed  Greek private sector: Social Security is MANDATORY, whatever you do. Even if you are not employed, as long as you were stupid enough to try and have your own business, you are liable to the Fund for every single penny you would owe them if you were working. No ability to pay your monthly dues? No problem, just a 3.5% surcharge for the 1st month and 1.5% monthly thereafter!!!

Back to employess in the private sector... Can you figure how much the "free welfare" costs the Greek economy? Let me enlighten you: 49.2% of their Salary!!! The State (via the Funds) racks in 49.2% of whatever I should be paid! 20.x% from the employee and 28.x% from the employer! Close to 50% before we even cash the montly paycheck become homage to the State. What does a private sector employee gets for this 50% ? A great medical care? IKA (the fund of the private sector employees) guarantees that every time you need some exam, say a CAT scan, you will have to wake up at 05:00, go line-up with the rest of the poor bastards outside their offices and if you are lucky, you may see your number called before the end of their work day! If yes, you can get an appointmnet for a CAT scan in, say, 3 months? 5 months? These are real numbers here, not fiction! If NO, well,tomorrow is another day and you can again meet your new friends in the line outside their offices!

So, I would be very carefull in using generalizations like "they do not have enough freebie welfare and want to retire at 40-50-60". It is obvious that the State employees were way different in those respects but, again, some 80% of teh greek workforce does NOT work for the Government.

 

As a footnote, today will be interesting!!! You will have the regular Indignados in full force outside the parliament and at the same time there will be demonstrations organized by the same state-employee syndicates that the private sector Indignados denounce!

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 05:12 | Link to Comment edotabin
edotabin's picture

System's gotta be cleared out.

1. Ire directed at banksters

2. Ire directed at politicians

3. Ire directed at about 60-70% of gov't employees that hardworking private sector folks such as yourself support while they mock everything and everyone.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 05:37 | Link to Comment zuuuueri
zuuuueri's picture

Everything this guy says is right on- and on top of all that, everyone in greece has to somehow deal with the bullshit system of farming out privileges and monopolies to well-connected people. Want to sell or make , well, basically anything? If you're not the one who's already blessed to do so in the area, you will run into an impassable wall of paperwork. At least they dont send thugs around to break your kneecaps, but they instead choke you with permits, hearings, inspections, etc, so that you never actually can commence business. They can and will stretch it out to _years_ , and the whole point is not to make sure everything is perfectly inspected and legit, haha, no the purpose is to force you either out of business, or to pay into their syndicate one way or another. 

What's the result of this? cartel-like abusive pricing on everything. The price at the cash register (nevermind the criminal 23% vat) is higher for almost everything, in greece, than it is in germany. 

In a way i'm lucky, i live and work abroad and don't have to deal with this shit day to day, and go back to visit when i like, but, the system in greece is bullshit. 

There are three groups, not just two, in this formula. There are the private sector, who pay heavily, work hard, and whether theyre farmers in some village maybe clearing 5-10k a year, or successful professionals or small business owners doing well, they are raped backwards and forwards with taxes, fees, red tape, 'extraordinary fees', and corrupt officials on every side.  There are the politicians and the elites, who have eaten the lions share at the orgy of borrowed money. Then there are their bought and paid for lackeys, the flunkies in the public sector, who you see rioting in the streets bitching because they're about to be kicked off the gravy train.

They were useful enough to the politicians when they were being bought with cheap promises of guaranteed salaries and pensions, etc. They supported the politicians, they supported the insane mentality that it's everyone's duty to pay out the ass to support The System, they were there day and night ramming this socialist crap down peoples throats.. but of course now that the party is over they are going to try to bleed the rest of the country dry to preserve their pathetic little privileges. The bigshots of course have sold the whole country out to foriegn interests, and georgie is probably already looking forward to a seat on the board somewhere in london or new york as thanks for having delivered yet another formerly inrependent country into their hands, and even more, for pulling off the first test run of total obliteration of sovereignty inside the EU. 

Both the small and large parasites have been bleeding greece. The working people in the private sector, be they self employed, or whether they work for someone else, have been bled dry to pay for this system. (even with all the loans, they still needed a lot more money than what they could borrow). It's hard to have any sympathy for the bloodsuckers who have been happily pulling down their salaries for 15 or 20 years while doing nothing, and now screaming because their pension is evaporating. Let the fuckers burn. 

If the small-time parasites end up being the thing that finally cracks the whole thing apart, well, then they will have finally done something useful. might not entirely compensate for the fact that they were part of the problem, but it'll help.  

Meanwhile, the powers outside of greece will move heaven and earth, as long as they can, to keep up appearances and preserve the fiction of a united europe.  Until they sink the whole thing together, they will keep finding ways to keep any part from breaking off, 'bailing out' in their backwards lingo. 

When they can't keep it going any longer, thats when it gets fun. I wish we'd default, but i suspect they will find yet another way to, as they say,  kick the can down the road. These sort of things go far longer than reasonable people often suspect they would, because, well, reasonable people dont think or act like desperate junkies.  Even knowing this it is hard not to look around and say 'holy shit can't they see this is falling apart right before our eyes?' 

 

 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 05:44 | Link to Comment hpro123
hpro123's picture

Spot ON!

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 09:48 | Link to Comment nicxios
nicxios's picture

+1

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 08:24 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Well hypro, one of the first comments I made on ZH was that 'If I invest 1 million dollars or pounds into a business I have a vote. If I make two employees redundant I am outvoted. Democracy is nothing more than the ability of the masses to vote themselves ever greater welfare at my expense, which they have done with immeasurable success (and cost) to date...' I would add 'and that I have no way to protect myself or my investment from it'. Maybe I'm wrong but you sound like you are of like mind.

Some of us work hard to build our businesses and we appreciate the difficulties in making and keeping our money. Many seem not to care as long as the check arrives every month, and that is not a Greek phenomenon. It is global.

Perhaps someone should explain to me how it is legal or even right for someone, anyone (including a government) to demand money from me to pay to someone else who is created a job so as to not count him as unemployed? This, sadly is the state we are in, where some governments, (the US Govt creates one in six jobs and Egypt even more) do exactly that, and when there is insufficient tax revenue to pay for it we borrow at taxpayers expense so as to not lay them off and count them as unemployed. This too is welfare, and when I say it is freebie I mean that it is always at someone else's expense, even debt sales. Anyone who reads my comments will know that I understand that nothing is free.

I shut my business down and left for foreign shores because my country is no different to what you have described above other than the tax rates are higher. I have no particular dislike of Greeks, and neither do I view them or their economy as any different to any other European. It is simply the case that they are further down the route to collapse than the others that will follow...

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 09:44 | Link to Comment nicxios
nicxios's picture

EXACTLY.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 08:10 | Link to Comment Widowmaker
Widowmaker's picture

Let me paraphrase: Arbeit macht frei.

As usual the issue is not work it's incorporated elitist fraud.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 10:45 | Link to Comment Freddie
Freddie's picture

ZH has a lot of 2008 O-Mugabe voters who are lefties.  They think if we all screw the bankers then life will be good.  Leftist govt unionized workers and welfare vermin expecting endless handouts are as bad as the scum bankers.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:25 | Link to Comment Billy Shears
Billy Shears's picture

So forget about tomorrow
Take it today
Forget about the check
we'll get hell to pay
Have a drink on me!

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:42 | Link to Comment Parth
Parth's picture

Point is jobs are there but moving to China, India, Australia where there is more demand and more worker enthusiasm. Besides Germany in EU work ethic is simply non-existent when compared to Indian, Chinese or even American companies. When I vacation in resorts with Europeans I am amazed at Brits hanging out for 8weeks. I have 2 week vacation and thats it. When I worked with Taiwanese company nobody went home from 9am to 9pm. 

What EU does not understand is inspite of the banksters the job scene in the world is dramatically more competitive. Similarly why Egypt is downbeat after the great revolt. It will not solve the job problem and ditto USA (we even gave up on job stimulus in US government- its all budget). 

 

The giant sucking sound you hear taking jobs away is China & India and there is no way thats gonna stop for a 100 years as both have young and highly motivated people. Where would you open your tech company athens? Madrid? Alabama(maybe)? New York? San Jose? OR Bangalore and Dailin in China. Its no debate. Jobs are not coming back in Athens or USA.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:59 | Link to Comment Fanakapan
Fanakapan's picture

Ultimately it will have to stop, or Europe will end up with Nobody having a job apart from a few Dickhead, Legends in their own Lunchtime types :)

No doubt when this Extended Stasis preceeding Collapse situation we are in now, comes to an end, Europe, and possibly the USA will get back to being the Dynamo's of Invention and Innovation. And probably the idea of employing Coolie Labour whilst keeping one's own population idle, will be seen for the Monetarist Brain Fart that it has proved to be :)

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:27 | Link to Comment Parth
Parth's picture

No debate about it, Europe will go down jobless, remember EU is about 350million people, Asia 2.5billion with access to education. Its over.Barring the few highly advanced economies EU will turn into a colossal ongoing civil war which nobody will eventually be interested in. Point is when these dinosaur economies go down, frankly nobody will care. You simply can't say "bail me out I want to retire at 61". 

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:13 | Link to Comment Alea Iacta Est
Alea Iacta Est's picture

There is a modern western distinction between "workers" and "indentured servants". A distinction not generally recognized by our Asian competitors. And one reason, among many, why Asian job creation will be a relatively short lived event as the standard of living improves and education becomes more prevalent. See: Chinese worker revolts.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:34 | Link to Comment Parth
Parth's picture

There are few indentured servants, Asians have more job opportunities than American or EU counterpart. That is the great American myth- you think you are freer you think you have more choice. An average Indian IT graduate has 5 offers of job quits his job 18months and has all the money to buy a car etc etc. Asians have jobs and choice to tell ytheir bosses take this job and shove it. How many Americans or Europeans can tell their boss that? ANd the riots, its related to inflation and some social issues. No biggie.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:28 | Link to Comment JustACitizen
JustACitizen's picture

Life is pretty cheap when you have a billion or three citizens. It is far cheaper when they have been in abject poverty for so many generations that even down looks up.

The question that I would pose is: Would you be willing to work like they do to live their lifestyle (coming from the West as you do)? Would you want your children to have to work like they do? If you are productive and generating a profit for the firm you work for - shouldn't you receive some of the fruits of your labor?

Global labor arbitrage only works for as long as the peonage allows it to go on - why do you think that the Chinese spend so much time trying to keep a lid on the kettle?

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:41 | Link to Comment Parth
Parth's picture

No I would not like to work as they do. Honest. I prescribe to the 4 hour work day and outsource all my tasks. I think I have reached the top of the food chain. But I will tell you that the CHinese and Indian operations I set up (Yea offshoring agent here) the folks in China worked hard out of sheer "Confucian work ethic", the Indians stayed late at work for the air condition or to avoid going home. 50% of the Americans I recruit fail background checks, drugs, alcohol, divorce, drunks. Its something folks don't grasp. Sure Asians are cheaper, sure they work harder, but they are also more stable employees and not very litigitous. THe culture can change but next 100years jobs in countries like Greece will disappear, America has issues but it still has a majority of the population which works and understands work ethic (barring the drugs and booze and divorce plaguing the society). But as far as Greece goes...Grease is the word, yes they are slippin' deservedly so.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:27 | Link to Comment Mec-sick-o
Mec-sick-o's picture

More or less, I exactly agree.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 02:23 | Link to Comment Rynak
Rynak's picture

When I vacation in resorts with Europeans I am amazed at Brits hanging out for 8weeks. I have 2 week vacation and thats it. When I worked with Taiwanese company nobody went home from 9am to 9pm. 

What EU does not understand is inspite of the banksters the job scene in the world is dramatically more competitive. Similarly why Egypt is downbeat after the great revolt. It will not solve the job problem and ditto USA (we even gave up on job stimulus in US government- its all budget).

And people working MORE hours per person, creates more jobs per person, how exactly? Or are you implying that there will be more jobs, by more industry moving there.... basically a worldwide race for which country has the best worker-slaves..... which will globally create more jobs how exactly?

You're not fixing the unemployment anomaly at all... you're just trying to outrun it, versus other countries, which globally just ACCELERATES the problem, which you are trying to prevent.

But hey..... who said that human's obsession with compensation has anything to do with longterm bigpicture thinking.... after all, the sole motivation behind compensation, is shortterm shortsighted hackfixes, so as to not invest the effort for a longterm solution.

P.S.: As for worker competence, motivation and discipline. Wouldn't the most competent, motivated and disciplined workers be those, who are paid well, are not exploited, are working in motivating conditions, yet simultaneusly there being strong competition for such great benefits? I mean, maybe it's just me and i'm naive, but it would seem to me, that one gets competent, motivated and disciplined workers, by offering them a lot, yet being selective in whom one offers those benefits: Offer much, expect much.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 08:56 | Link to Comment sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

That presumes a government won't have someone who combats offshoring aggressively.

Eventually someone will, and they'll even repatriate those whom have already left. 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 09:29 | Link to Comment theMAXILOPEZpsycho
theMAXILOPEZpsycho's picture

I'm a european and I have to say you're right. But I think I have a solution. How about europe closes its borders to the rest of the world, all immigrants have to be repatriated. Europe can no longer import from beyond its borders. Europeans live a life of less work, less consumption, and more time for artistic pursuits, while the rest of the world out competes each other in driving down living standards in order to attract industry.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 10:53 | Link to Comment Freddie
Freddie's picture

+1

Who in their right mind would open a factory in hell holes like California and Illinois.  You have govt union workers, illegal aliens, lifetime welfare beneficiaries and leftists Democrat politicians feasting on the dead carcass of those states.  I see copper thieves knocked down 300 utility poles in Antioch, CA.  Welcome to the third world.

Egypt - the old thugs replaced with the new more islamic thugs.  As far as German productivity, Sweden got their act together and is more competitive then you think. N Europe is in decent shape compared to the rest of the world.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 22:57 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

flash crash redux

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:06 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Shrug.  I can assure you near 100% that NOTHING is going to change until bullets start blasting through skulls into brains.

Why would bank executives care about a bunch of people walking in the street?  They  still get the taxpayer money and that's all that matters.  

Until skulls start bleeding, the bank CEOs aren't concerned.  They are very smart people.  They know the only threat they face is violence.  They aren't going to take any losses until that threat is clear.

Why should they?  They are getting tax money and no one is stopping them.  It all looks like a good situation to them.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 00:45 | Link to Comment jomama
jomama's picture

i wouldn't go so far as to call them smart, but in a game of tactics, these bad guys have won yet another round.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 10:58 | Link to Comment Freddie
Freddie's picture

The newsmedia and TV that the elites/banksters own are just as bad and have more power.  This is ALL TV and all the media and if you watch or pay for TV - you are helping them.

How many wars have the european banksters started and made a lot of money over the past 350+ years?  When has anyone ever taken the fight to them?  Until you "weed" them out - nothing will change.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 23:33 | Link to Comment Crab Cake
Crab Cake's picture

Hey Greeks....

Crude Napalm = Gasoline + Styrofoam... throw in a little motor oil and liquid wrench to taste = Much much better Molotov cocktail.

You know... Just in case you wanted to know.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 03:46 | Link to Comment Reptil
Reptil's picture

A dash of washing detergent powder also good. Makes a nice "sticky" fire.
Also, get a lot of coca-cola. Not to drink but it helps against tear gas, the egyptians found out. Also makes a good cheap pesticide. (did I say "don't drink it" already?)

Dash, for your crony stains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpKSV7j61YY

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 00:02 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Greece is pisssed for the same reason ireland should be very pissed, iceland was pissed, spain is getting pissy....

it's a pissy situation. Indian's should be pissed, but they're too busy being dis-tracted to be pissed. Mexican's are pissed, as they should be. I think Iraqi and Afghani people are quite pissed too. Even the Japanese are pissed. And the gulf-coast folks in the US are mighty pissed too.

This whole pissiness thing is like a mexican wave thing.... it's all random pissers in the wind till suddenly.... A standing wave of resonant, angry pee.

Watch out below. No "Golden" shower this.

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/the-callousness-of-pornography/

 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:47 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

Showers =datebook+parachute

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 00:01 | Link to Comment TexDenim
TexDenim's picture

Greece today is the USA twenty years from now. Broke, overspent, brimming with an aging population that wants its benefits, whether the country can afford them or not.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 00:44 | Link to Comment jomama
jomama's picture

20 years from now?  i'm in my mid thirties and i am fully aware that my 401k and my company's pension plans aren't going to amount to shit then.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:51 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

Future? I'm fukn 50 living on family reputation. It's 1957 and I'm Jacquline Bouvier!

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 00:29 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

No Taxes Collected Jobs Shipped to China 50K a Month since 2000 and now Cuts to Real Working Americans

 

For a DECADE! We have shipped 50,000 Jobs a MONTH! To China! (alone)

 

For the majority of that time we have given Tax Breaks to Corporations to Move those Jobs.

 

For the better part of a DECADE! We have undermined our own Tax Base!

 

For Longer! Than a Decade we have allowed the Largest Money Makers, with the Largest Lobby’s to Pay almost NO! Fucking Taxes!

 

America is NOT! a Country that has no social safety net or that is supposed to be OK! With being a Police State.

 

If any Citizens want to live in an America with no Social Safety Nets!

If any Citizens want to live in an America that is a Police State!

Should get the fuck out and go live in one of the MANY! Shit Hole Countries that are already living under those conditions!

 

America is Supposed to be better than those 3rd World Countries!

But the top 1% of the 1% keep spending Lobby monies and Buying T.V. ad time to realize a 3 rd World America!

 

Most of you buy Gold and Silver to insulate yourselves from an uncomfortable life style! I buy Gold and Silver so that in the event of Social un-rest that I may be able to pay for / feed an army to Rout by the Almighty God! You Wanna Be Tight Fisted, Treasonist Scum from My Country! I pray for the chance to rid this once Great Country of the scum that is the real drag that keeps hungry children hungry! God have mercy on you because I will NOT!

 

All of you that support people / corporations NOT paying their fair share!

All of you that support a 3rd World Living Standard for any American for ANY REASON!

I want to see you Hanged on the White House Lawn!

      Top 10 corporations which paid no taxes

Here is Sen. Sanders’ list of the 10 worst corporate income tax avoiders:

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings. (Source: Exxon Mobil’s 2009 shareholder report filed with the SEC here.)

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion. (Source: Forbes.com here, ProPublica here and Treasury here.)

3) General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States over the past five years and, thanks to clever use of loopholes, paid no taxes.(Source: Citizens for Tax Justice here and The New York Times here. Note: despite rumors to the contrary, the Times has stood by its story.)

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009. (Source: See 2009 Chevron annual report here. Note 15 on page FS-46 of this report shows a U.S. federal income tax liability of $128 million, but that it was able to defer $147 million for a U.S. federal income tax liability of negative $19 million.)

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year. (Source: Paul Buchheit, professor, DePaul University, here and Citizens for Tax Justice here.)

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year, received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction. (Source: the company’s 2009 annual report, pg. 112, here.)

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department. (Source: Bloomberg News here, ProPublica here, Treasury Department here.)

8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury. (Source: Paul Buchheit, professor, DePaul University, here, ProPublica here, Treasury Department here.)

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2006 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction. (Sources: Profits can be found here. The deduction can be found on the company’s 2010 SEC 10-K report to shareholders on 2009 finances, pg. 127, here.)

10) Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits over the past five years, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent. (Source: The New York Times here.)

http://www.greenpartywatch.org/2011/04/30/top-10-corporations-who-paid-no-taxes/

 

and...

 

‘Dutch Sandwich’ saves Google billions in taxes Internet giant uses complex structure to keep its overseas tax rate at 2.4%

 

and.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39784907/ns/business-us_business/t/dutch-sandwich-saves-google-billions-taxes/

 

 

Microsoft’s purchase of Skype for $8.5 billion provides a perfect illustration of why adopting a true worldwide corporate income tax system is critical to our economic future.  

According to the Wall Street Journal, the cash for Microsoft’s purchase of Skype (a Luxembourg-based company) will come out of its $42 billion in liquid assets held in foreign subsidiaries.

Because it is purchasing a foreign company with its overseas assets, Microsoft can avoid paying any U.S. tax that would be due if it had repatriated foreign earnings in order to purchase a US company for the same amount. Based on the company's effective foreign income tax rate disclosed in their most recent SEC filings, a repatriation of $8.5 billion dollars would cost Microsoft somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.1 billion in U.S. tax.

As a Forbes commentator opines, the Microsoft-Skype deal demonstrates the harmful incentive created in our current system that encourages companies to invest in overseas companies rather than domestic ones. The fear is that this deal may just be “a harbinger of things to come.”

http://www.ctj.org/taxjusticedigest/archive/federal_tax_issues/tax_avoidance_tax_evasion_and/offshore_abuses/

 

Republicans to roll out new tax-cut proposal: WSJ
25 May 2011, by Michael Kitchen - Los Angeles (MarketWatch)
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/republicans-to-roll-out-new-tax-cut-proposal-wsj-2011-05-25

Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives are set to unveil a new economic proposal Thursday that will cut taxes for multinational corporations and lower other tax rates.

 

But you want cuts to what Real American's are due? FUCK YOU!

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:29 | Link to Comment Crab Cake
Crab Cake's picture

Corporate tax rate? Seriously now, what is the purpose of a corporate tax? It's absurd. Why? Corporations don't pay taxes, the end user always does, always has, because it passes through to the price of the good or service. The whole concept of taxing a company is a fiction. There are only two viable solutions to our tax problems. A. A percentage based income tax structure, through which all governments fed/state/local derive their funding. B. A percentage based sales tax structure, through which all governments fed/state/local derive their funding. We must end the convoluted incestuous hodge podge tax systems that currently exist. Property tax is also a crime in and of itself that must be abolished.

Seriously, a world tax authority? Are you insane? Enforcement by who? The world IRS under the auspice of the world government... Great idea.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:53 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

aren't you on WCN?

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 03:44 | Link to Comment yakmerchant
yakmerchant's picture

World Taxes is definitely the answer, that sounds so good, I mean no one will cheat on them, and even if they do my global policemen will make sure I get my fair share.   I really love the idea of having a global politburo that way we can do away with elections all together, I mean the EU's laws are made by unelected commissars and that is going swimmingly.   I look so forward to the days of morally superior muslim soldiers wearing Blue NATO helmets patrolling my neighborhood keeping me safe.   Greece has shown our brothers and sisters the way, and will show the world that true workers get to retire when they deserve with full pensions, regardless if they cost society ten times more than they ever produced in their lifetime.  I mean we are due free shit from those who have more than us.  I can't wait! It has been told the workers of the world will unite, and we will live in utopia.  Long live comrade JW. 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 06:03 | Link to Comment SamuelMaverick
SamuelMaverick's picture

JW, you are ignorant. It was painful reading your juvenile post which read like it was written by a sophomore in college. Here is a little free education for you; corporations ( and all businesses ) create a tremendous amount of direct and indirect tax revenue thru the employees income taxes, thru sales tax at the end product or service, property taxes, regulatory fees, etc. A smart country or state would not tax a business at all. 0% business tax would be smart.  

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 07:16 | Link to Comment hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

"0% business tax would be smart"

It was painful reading your juvenile post!!!!!!!

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 09:30 | Link to Comment yakmerchant
yakmerchant's picture

Yes, please do explain how double taxation benefits anyone besides lawyers and accountants?   

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 11:01 | Link to Comment Freddie
Freddie's picture

You are a known Oba-Hussein voter and a moron.  G-F-Y.  Scumbag.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 00:40 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

Europe hurry up and go into some fiscal/bank liquidity shit-storm...wake up Asia

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:54 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

No one is so rich to give up on friends.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 02:11 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

don't know what you are talkin about.

But the EZ implosion should finally tip Asia over...just waiting

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:02 | Link to Comment legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

Should never try Greek without sufficient lubrication

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 01:56 | Link to Comment Ben Fleeced
Ben Fleeced's picture

just relax and stop buying luxury items.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 02:02 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Petrol bombs are gittin 'spensive

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 02:44 | Link to Comment Peter K
Peter K's picture

Being in regular contact with a TV screen that has CNBC running 24/7, all I can say is thank God that the legacy media is not covering the European Spring uprisings, or it could be much worse.

BTW If a tree falls in the forest...... you get my drift.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 03:02 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

french midget and German dominatrix meet...nothing they can do now. Europe is about to get short sold, CDS's through to the EUR.  This was coming

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 04:25 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  It's a Greek thing. Too Few asses to Goose!

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 05:20 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Wake up sleepy heads.  Money doesn't sleep!

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 05:49 | Link to Comment Out9922
Out9922's picture

Riots are beginning again right now

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 06:19 | Link to Comment Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture

 

Nothing happening in Greece. The guys on the webcam have been standing for at least an hour exactly on the same spot. No wonder they're broke..

http://www.athensinfoguide.com/wcv/wcparliament.htm

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 06:36 | Link to Comment Voluntary Exchange
Voluntary Exchange's picture

I prefer to build wealth rather than directly try to work with a criminal system (all present "governments" are criminal systems). 

 

Suggest the Greeks and all Americans fed up with the criminal governments,  (those guys that steal from the people and give trillions to the banksters so they can in turn pay it out in bonuses to their priviledged class while millions starve), start functioning in the Agorist civilization:

"Brad Spangler ... Agorism"  "The Makers can live without the Takers!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ob2f5arcUI

 

"New Libertarian Manifesto"

http://agorism.info/docs/NewLibertarianManifesto.pdf

 

If enough productive people switch over it will be the end of the criminal states, in the mean time, you work to create well being for your fellow man through voluntary exchange (a genuinely "legal" human activity, not one based on the  criminal initiation of force like the "state" that serves the frauds, thieves, and murderers).

 

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 06:43 | Link to Comment Quintus
Quintus's picture

If anyone is interested in watching today's developments in Syntagma Square live, here's the link:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjap5w_y-yyyyyyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyy_news

The authorities have erected a 2 meter high plexiglas and steel barricade around parliament and there are supposedly about 5,000 riot police on hand to prevent any over-enthusiastic elements in the crowd attempting to enter the parliament building.

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 07:51 | Link to Comment Lndmvr
Lndmvr's picture

Reminds me of the sound walls around major US cities. Keeping people in or out? Wheres the fire door?

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 06:49 | Link to Comment ivana
ivana's picture

Same situation like in MENA countries.

Next year will be same like rest of PIIGS

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 08:34 | Link to Comment cabernet
cabernet's picture

Greece needs to default, and demand a write down of debt. Investors have been getting a significant risk premium on Greek Government debt for years. That higher yield is compensation for default risk. Well, the default risk is here. The government should not hand over national treasures to lenders as all the government borrowing was unsecured. Investors should not be bailed out by taxpayers. Write the debt down 60-70%, and lets move on. Yes, investors, banks and other lenders will get hit. This is the risk they take. They need to accept the fact that they lost.

http://www.TheAngryGrapes.Com  

Wed, 06/15/2011 - 09:17 | Link to Comment gwar5
gwar5's picture

Extreme unemployment and extreme interest rates --- and inflation.

Thanks to Bernanke we can add inflation to their misery index. No jobs, no economic activity, and no way to pay for food or fuel as prices begin to go North. Let them eat cake?

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